Episode 13 Transcript

Hello and welcome to episode 13 of the Fierce Fatty podcast. I am your host, Victoria Welsby. And today we're talking about fat fertility with Nicola Salmon. Let's do it.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm Victoria Welsby, TEDx speaker, best selling author, and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self-esteem to being a courageous and confident Fierce Fatty who loves every inch of this jelly. Society teaches us living in a fat body is bad, but what if we spent less time, money, and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that matter? Like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century. So how do you stop negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the Fierce Fatty Podcast. Let's begin.Victoria:

Victoria:

Okay, so welcome to this episode where I have, Oh my gosh, a guest, my first ever guest. And I'm super excited about it. I was just talking to Nicola just before we started recording about how I wasn't planning on having guests on the podcast to begin with, cause I was like, Oh my God, it's all about me. Oh my God. Just my boys. But there's certain topics within fat positivity that I really geek out about and I'm not an expert on. So there are people who are experts on certain things and Nicola is an expert on fat fertility. So I was like, Nicola is amazing. I love her. She is a fellow smelly Brit like me. So why not get her on the podcast? So if you don't know who Nicola is where have you been? She is a fat positive feminist fertility coach and author of Fat and Fertile and she advocates for change in how fat people are treated whilst accessing help with the fertility. And Nicola supports fat people who want to get pregnant using her fat positive fertility framework to find their own version of health without diets, advocate for their bodies, relearn how to trust their body and believe in their ability to get pregnant in their current body. Oh my God. Nicola, you sound amazing. Come talk to me. Welcome to the show.

Nicola:
Thank you so, so, so much for having me. I feel so honored to be your very first guest. I'm just doing a little happy dance over there.

Victoria:
Yay. I'm doing a happy dance too. Happy fatty dance. I wonder what a fatty dance would be if there would be some sort of fatty movement. What would be the fatty? It'd be belly jiggling.

Nicola:
Should be lots of roles. And there are lots of kind of like undulating of like boobs and bellies and.

Victoria:
Yes. Do you know what it'd be like? You know the snake, like the snake, but a standing snake, but you're like scrunching all your or your fat everywhere. That is what it is. Decided by downs me for everyone. So Nicola, we connected on we connected in a group, actually a totally separate group in a business group. And you were like, yeah. And you were like, Oh my God. I was like, Oh my God. And then we've been connected ever since. So probably a couple of years, maybe a year. Yeah.

Nicola:
So happy to have found you and that somebody else talking about this stuff, it was so new to me.

Victoria:
Oh really? No. Really. Wow. When you're so you just, you have such an important message because it's rarely talked about in the fat positive community is fat fertility and the bullshit that fat humans have to go through if they do need help while you know, trying to get pregnant. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about all the bullshit and everything that goes on and all the things that people believe. Like fat people can't get pregnant, get pregnant cause they're so unhealthy and they're going to die any second and all that sort of jazz. So yeah, actually actually actually tell us first about what your doing for your clients and then we'll get into the details.

Nicola:
So it started out my whole business, kind of started out because I saw that I was a fertility coach to begin with kind of just doing general fertility stuff. But then I saw that there was this whole area of fat people who weren't being supported and as a fellow Foxy I was like, you know, this isn't okay. These people are being laughed at being told that it's their responsibility to lose this weight. And it was really just, it just opened my eyes and completely blew my mind as to how they were being treated. It's, you know, the stuff I hear is absolutely appalling about how the doctors tell them it's unethical for them to get pregnant, for them to support it. That they can't believe that they would even consider getting pregnant in their current bodies. Like the stuff that they are telling them is stuff you wouldn't tell you know, your worst enemy. It's, it's awful.

Victoria:
That is just, I didn't want to interrupt you by being like, what the fuck? Oh my God, that was what, like unethical to get preg. Why would say that? What's that all about?

Nicola:
It's the, I mean they believe, you know, and I think doctors go into their role as doctors because they want to help people, right? And the majority, and I think that they believe that, you know, the fat shaming, the weight stigma, this is a way of encouraging people to lose weight. And it's absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely untrue. Just makes you feel like shit, makes you feel like you hate your body even more. And it just sends people down a spiral of, you know, like horrible body thoughts and you know, horrible disordered eating behaviors and all that stuff. But I think that helping at the end of the day. And you know, for me it's such a big part of my work now to change that attitude and to advocate and put activism into my work so that we can change the system supporting this because it's fine and dandy me supporting these people. I'm going into their doctors and you know, trusting their bodies and all this stuff. Until we change the systems, it's not going to get any better for the next generations of people. And we need to change that so that these people have an equal and fat, you know, there's no chance that the system, they need to be able to get the same support and that they need for their healthcare as everybody else, regardless of their body size.

Victoria:
Mm. And so the people that come to you for your expertise, they have tried to get pregnant but they have not yet been successful or they are pregnant or a mix of the two or, yeah. Tell us what type of clients.

Nicola:
It's a mix of the two. So often I will help people get to get pregnant and then help them supporting them through pregnancy because it doesn't stop once you get pregnant. It's like the shame and the judgements and the, you know, awful behavior from the healthcare professionals does not stop once you're pregnant as kind of. In the UK for example, we have the British midwife association has a link with sending worlds so they will recommend people go to slimming world when they're pregnant if body. Yeah. What? Various like money exchange towns in that situation. So it's, you know, it is in every system and the things people that you believe would be, you know like above all that stuff. It's in deep, it's entrenched in all our systems.

Victoria:
I literally gobsmacked birds during pregnancy. People are being told to lose weight. Like what?

Nicola:
Is it like growing a human being, right?

Victoria:
Yes. And you could, because you know, a diet is literally starving your body and the amount of negative health that comes from dieting that seems like on a whole another level of fucked up. Like telling someone to lose generally is like fucked up. But while pregnant, like you've got to worry about growing a human and worried about what people think of you. And now you have to also worry about starving yourself like.

Nicola:

Oh yeah. And it means people direct their appointments. It means people that don't want to go and see them midwife because they're worried what the scale is gonna say. It means that they are not getting the same access to birth choices when you know when they are given birth because they're saying, Oh well you're too high risk this and you're definitely going to get gestational diabetes. And you know the reason we know that the risks are higher for people in bigger bodies to have some of these pregnancy related conditions. But I believe so much of that is due to the weight stigma. You know, there is so much evidence out there that supports the fact that weight stigma contributes to these negative risks and health and we can pretty much contribute all those increase in risks to the facts that these people in bigger bodies are being shamed or being judged or being made to feel crap about themselves when they're pregnant and when they're trying to get pregnant. So it's, you know, and it's not going to help by these people, keep creating these situations where people are treated poorly.

Victoria:
Mm. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm just, I'm raging over here. It's like, ah it, yeah, absolutely. And so tell us about before you get pregnant. Some of the ideas and maybe not even just fat bodies, the ideas that we've been told, when you reach a certain age, then your chances of getting pregnant are like 0%. Like as soon as you hit age, I don't know, 30 or 20 or whatever it bullshit age they say. How that is potentially misinformation and also maybe the access that fat people are denied when it comes to help with their fertility.

Nicola:
So yeah, the age thing is a tricky one because we're told that like there's this myth that it like drops off a cliff as soon as you reach a certain age. And that's just not the case because we're all different, right? We're all in different bodies. We all have different experiences of life if we'll treat it our bodies in different ways. So our fertility kind of reflects our health. It's not a separate component that is just sitting over here doing it. Same thing, you know, it's part and parcel of how our body's showing us how well it is. So it makes sense that some people can get pregnant in their forties. Some people, you know, they need some more help earlier on. So it's just really not making people feel crap that they've left it longer or not. Maybe people feel crap that they you know, that they aren't able to conceive naturally. And it's about just really supporting people where they're at in a nonjudgmental way, in a helpful, as helpful as we can weigh in the systems that we're working in and just being, you know, like helping them in every way, both physically and mentally. Because this is a huge mental process, you know, trying to get pregnant, getting pregnant, this takes up people's whole entire lives. You know, their whole life will revolve around this act of trying to conceive and when it's not working, when it's not happening as quickly as you think it should. Because again, there's so much misinformation around that. So many people think as soon as you stop taking contraception, that's it. You're going to get pregnant because that's what we're told in school, right. Don't touch boys, you're going to get pregnant.

Victoria:
Yeah. I remember one time I walked off a boy in a club and I was like, Oh my God, I'm definitely pregnant. All I did was one came off like I didn't, there was no jeez up in my coochie nothing. And I was like definitely pregnant. Oh my God. Anyway.

Nicola:
I think if we were talking earlier on about, you know, why actual cycles are and what actually happens on how it impacts our bodies, it would, you know, make a huge difference to how people show up in the world who are kind of, you know, female assigned at birth. So it's, yeah, it's challenging. And for people who are in bigger bodies, well they have to contend with like strict BMI cutoffs for the UK in the NHS. So you have to be under a BMI of 30 to access any NHS funding for treatment

Victoria:
30. That's, that's, that's small, right? Yeah.

Nicola:
I know. Most clinics, you know, private clinics where you actually go and pay to have treatment in the UK, that BMI is normally around 35 and it's similar in the US you know, depending on your insurance and depending on what state you're in, what connects around such a huge variety and there really is no consistency. There's no reason for those BMI cooktops. It's arbitrary. I mean, BMI is bullshit. Anyway, so it's just so infuriating because I'm told these people, I'm like, you know, there's so much that, you know, the fertility doctors can do to help people. They refuse to. So some of my work, I've been helping people advocate against them. We've had some success, which has been incredible, but to put that kind of energy into even getting to the first stage of this can be traumatic treatments. You know, IVF and stuff are nothing you take on lightly is, you know, it's not fair for them and it's not something that they should have to do.

Victoria:
Mm. It's a different level of cruelty to deny someone the chance of having a child because their body is not thin and I'm thinking about, you know, obviously you mentioned before BMI is bullshit, but I happen to know my BMI just cause the doctor annoyingly told me recently is the 37 and I am a small, medium fat, medium fat basically. And so that means that someone would have to be theoretically straight size, a thin person to access help. And as we know, most people are not straight size. It's more common to be fat than it is to be thin. And so it just seems really, really fucked up. Yeah, it really is. Yeah. So, so people who go to, you know, like you even a private clinic or the NHS or whatever and they have a higher BMI. Is it literally just no, go away, you're too fat or is it kind of like, yeah, literally go away. You're too fat.

Nicola:
Sometimes that ain't get in the door. The GP won't give them a thorough specialist because they're like, no, they'll just deny you go and lose weight and come back. So people are left with a choice. They either go and try and lose weight, you know, and normally that is like, I want to lose weight as fast as I can because I'm worried about this age thing. That's right. The ticking time bomb in the corner. Yeah. So then they'll go on the low calorie diets or the very low calorie diets or you know, whatever it is. And that is then going to have a really negative impact on their fertility because that's starving their bodies and it just makes no sense.

Victoria:
Yes. I was just thinking that like get, you know, engage in eating disorder type behaviors and make your body really sick because it's starving and then you are quote unquote well enough to try this treatment when they were well before theoretically.

Nicola:
So people have to choose between starting their family or having an eating disorder, right. And it's the most infuriating thing is, you know, when they know that it's a male factor thing. So for a headscarf, heterosexual couple, you know that it's the male factor. That's the problem. So they need the IVF, everything's perfectly fine. A test to great for the female, but she's in a bigger body, still denied. No, yeah cause messed up.

Victoria:
Is that because they say just IVF is less successful in fat bodies.

Nicola:
Yeah, they stay that. But I've, there's no evidence, it's so much research now to support the fact that IVF works equally well across the BMI and it's really just the fat phobic attitudes of the healthcare professionals and that maybe they're not set up to be support people in bigger bodies. They're not trained enough to deal with bigger bodies.

Victoria:
Like, you can't see me right now, but my eyes are wide, my mouth is agape and I'm just, it's like I knew about this, but I thought there'd be some kind of like well clearly you're healthy so you're an exception or something like that. It's just a straight, no. So what do these people do? Who were then denied and they can't lose weight or they don't want to or you know, or whatever.

Nicola:
They're just that they're not given any support. They're not given any advice. It's either lose weight or don't come back. And so they just have to try and conceive naturally. Yeah. But if you, if you know that something's wrong, if you know that maybe you've got block tubes, are those your partners issue, then you really are stuck. You know, you have to save copious amounts of money to try and find a private clinic, which there are some that will support you regardless of your BMI. They are few and far between, but there are some well yeah, or try and use the way in which we know as a few tile anyway for 95% of the population. So it's, yeah, it's one of those messed up games of like money versus how if it's just ughhh.

Victoria:
Yeah, I know. I wonder. Cause the UK is pretty fat phobic, like living in North America for 10 years. And then coming back, I've been here in Ireland for a year. Seeing this fat phobic and obviously North America, but it's different type of angry fatphobia here. And so I wonder what it is for the rest of the world. Do you think this is pretty standard or this is exceptionally fucked up for the UK?

Nicola:
It is pretty standard for more I can gather, you know, I have clients in the US I have clients in Australia. So mostly kind of Western countries and the attitudes are very similar, but I feel like almost the range is different. So maybe in the UK the ranges are smaller, so like the outrage will start at BMI 30 maybe in the US that would be a bit higher, maybe 35 or 40 would be a more normal cutoff for fertility clinics. So I feel like the very, the range may be different, in which case, you know, like which size is quote unquote acceptable and which isn't. But there's the shame and the guilt and the way that they make these people fail is definitely universal.

Victoria:
Yeah, absolutely. And so if by some miracle I'm a fat person does become pregnant who has been struggling, I'd know they get go to a private clinic or something happens and they become pregnant. You were mentioning that the, they're told to lose weight and something you told me before, which was, I can't remember what it was, but fat people are told, Oh, you've got a you're doubling your risk for some type of thing. It might be gestational diabetes, but it's actually just going from like no 0.5% to 1% chance of getting. I, am remembering that right? Do you remember this?

Nicola:

Yeah, I can see if I can vote. The statistics like to give you the accurate ones, but yeah, there's like, they tell you like that you've got 74% chance more, you know, more chance of getting this issue and you've got, you know, like 200% more chance of getting this. But you're right, the stats are so small that it's let me see if I can just grab it up. So, you know, like we said before, the risks are there and I think it's really important to be informed of those risks and be aware that they exist. But you know, they're still really small. So things like gestational diabetes, if you're in a quote unquote normal BMI, it's like 2.3% of people who get just as in diabetes and then like between 30 and 35 it's 5.5. So it doubles, but it's still a small risk. And that still means that like 94% of the people don't get diabetes, but you don't, you know, they almost take it as like, it's a given. Oh, you're in a bigger body, you're gonna get this, you're gonna get that.

Victoria:
And as well, what really grinds my gears with any type of, Oh, you're going to get this thing is if you do get gestational diabetes, does that mean that you're going to spontaneously combust? Like does every single person you get gestational diabetes just die on the spot? Is it like, is it a manageable condition, Nicola?

Nicola:
Totally. Completely. 100%. And people in smaller bodies get it too. It's not something that's just for people in bigger bodies. You know, every size body gets this condition. So therefore, you know, it's nothing to do with the size of your body. It's actually to do something else that's going on, right?

Victoria:
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we are all so terrified of getting these conditions, but the reality is that, you know, most of the times these are conditions or something that are manageable, but what we're so afraid of is maybe the shame and stigma and the fear of harming the baby and all that type of stuff.

Nicola:
And so often with pregnancy, this fear of hurting the baby comes above the mother's own wellbeing. So we're so concerned, you know, everybody says at least the baby's healthy, at least the baby's healthy. But it's so important for the mother to be healthy as well. You know, we have to take both those lives. And you know, and be really, really clear that, you know, the mother's health is imperative, both our physical and mental health. And that should not be just, you know, brushed under the carpet. That shouldn't be the second thing that you think about her, you know, health or wellbeing is paramount.

Victoria:
Because if there's no parent that is giving birth and there's no baby, right? Yeah, exactly. So, Oh man, I need to take a deep breath. Well, it's like rage and juicing information. And so the parents survives the whatever it is the period of growing the baby. What's that called, pregnancy? So the parents survives the pregnancy. And now they are going to go and deliver the baby. What differences does someone with a fat body see when they are delivering?

Nicola:
So normally they will be classed as high risk throughout their pregnancy, which then means that they're kind of in the UK at least. So I went through this personally. I was high risk just due to my BMI, there's absolutely nothing else going on. So that meant I was under consultant care, which is like a higher level of care. And that severely restricts the birth options that you are given or advised. So when I was pregnant with my first I did quite a lot of research about this cause I wanted to have a home birth, I wanted to have a birth. That was my preference and I was told no, I was told you are not allowed to have those things. You are higher rescue or too big. The midwife could, you know what happens if you fall over or they've been to wife can't get you out or you're too heavy to for her to carry them, you know, there's shamy shaming language. And I did a lot of research around it and I found that actually they can't tell me what to do. I can choose where I give birth. It's my body, it's my choice. So I could have a home birth if I wanted to and they would legally have to support me with that. So that's what I did. I told them that's what I was going to do in the end. I didn't have a home birth because of some other things that were always going on. And I made the decision to go into hospital but unless people know this, unless people are aware of the role, the rights in the health care, you know, in general. But also like with giving birth, you can be made to feel like it's not a choice. So you're told that you have to go and have this consultant led care in the hospital laboring on your back, which we know isn't the best thing to do anyway. But it just severely restricted my options and it was, you know, I was treated in a very different way than my, I feel I'd been treated if I was in a smaller body. Yeah. And made to feel almost irresponsible because I'd let my body get to this size and it was, you know, like, how dare I do that to my child, you know, nothing happened. Everything was fine. Everybody was healthy. But yeah, it was a sobering experience to say that I used.

Victoria:
And we'll start with your first introduction to the world of fertility and birth and`fatness or were you already doing it?

Nicola:
It was my first experience of really seeing fatphobia reaction. I wasn't really aware or have the language for it at the time cause I was still very much entrenched in diet culture. But it was my first ever time of advocating for myself before that I was always just a goody two shoes. Yes. That's exactly what the doctor says. I'll do everything they tell me to do. And it was the first time I'd really ever stood up for myself. So that was a really big moment. Me and definitely one that propelled me down this path.

Victoria:
Yeah. That's so incredible. Cause I can't even imagine being told you are high risk and if you do a home birth and who knows what's going to happen kind of thing. You know, to have the strength to say no, like I'm going to do it my way. That's pretty amazing. Oh my God.

Nicola:
It took a lot and it took a lot of energy and it took a lot, especially being, you know, like eight, nine months pregnant at a time that's not an easy stretch, you know, kind of thing that you're doing to your body. So yeah, it was a lot. And again, these people shouldn't have to do that. They should be allowed to have the choices that they want to make and be supported on that and not have to have this extra bottle and this extra fight and take this extra energy because some people won't have the energy because pregnancy can totally deplete you and you can feel like you've got nothing left to give at the end of it. And that's so normal, especially if you're working and you know, so many people work throughout their pregnancies and not able to take time and rest when they get, when they're pregnant. So it's a lot to ask of people and then you go into new motherhood exhausted, you know, like you've just had this battle on your hands that you never wanted to have in the first place and you've given birth and now you've got a human to take care of. You've got no idea what to do when you know you're not setting up new mother's mental health in the best way. When you are giving people, you know, like putting people in that position.

Victoria:
And, so you mentioned that you were told that you were higher risk because you have a bigger body. What's the reality behind that? Like, Oh, people in bigger bodies are at higher risk for, you know, death or the baby not living and things like that. Or is that exaggerated?

Nicola:
So this term, high risk is really quite all in. It's like a kind of catchall. So they'll just label you high risk. They didn't really talk about what high risk is or they didn't for me. But high risk is that you are at higher risk of things like miscarriage, stillbirth. I talked about gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, you know, all these things. But realistically it's, the risks are that the risks are high, the rest have been shown in evidence, but they haven't accounted for things. Like a lot of these people have been dieting beforehand. A lot of these people have been treated differently in their pregnancies. And we know for a fact that for people of color in the UK, their death rates when they are given birth is ridiculously higher than the non people of color. So we know that the fact that there's this marginalization for people of people of color has an impact on their death rate when they are pregnant and that is not acceptable. Something, you know, there has to be something done about that, but we can see that marginalization has an impact on that and there's no reason to like disagree that that plays a role in how pregnancy is dealt with and how birth is dealt with. Because obviously it plays a huge role.

Victoria:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's, it's that idea that just because you have a fat body, the fat body is the thing that is responsible for any type of health outcome. But exactly like you saying about people of color and the astronomical death rate. And so you can't say, okay, people of color, their bodies just more at risk for dying. It's not their bodies. It's their experiences and the systems. Yeah. And the experiences in the systems of fat people, it makes total sense that is what is making them at higher risk for certain things. And I just imagine being giving birth, being so vulnerable and having people around you that, you know, don't approve of your body or think that you are a bad parent because of the size of your body is going to do no good for your feet, for the experience and for your brain and for the, for the health outcomes that you're going to have.

Nicola:
Well, we know that, you know, giving birth you need to, the best way to get a good outcome is to have a safe birth, to be in a safe environment. To, you know, all the hormones that were involved in birth is all around kind of oxytocin and creating this, you know, like feeling safe and feeling secure. You cannot do that in a brightly lit hospital room with doctors around you telling you that, Oh, I can't put this monitor on your belly because it's too big and it's not working. And in my first one they missed my what do they call it? Can't remember the rest of the junk now. I had an epidural on the first time they put it in, they missed so it didn't work. And they were like, Oh, well, you know, I couldn't really tell because if you're the fat on around your spine and Oh my God, like it's not an environment you want to be given birth.

Victoria:
And yeah, because going to the doctors as fat people we know can be very, very difficult. And yeah, in a being in a space where you, you know, you might have to be there and not being in control and just, Oh, I just sounds awful. Just thinking about these, you know, fat knob heads being like, Oh, you're so fat and you're like, I'm giving bath, leave me alone.

Nicola:
And it's, yeah, it's not it's not a super safe place to be as a fat person. Christian. Yeah. And so what about C-sections? Is there anything like that? Fat people are not given C-sections if they need it or they're given too many C-sections or they're given too many people. See people giving birth naturally in a fat body as too dangerous. So the C section rates are so much higher for people in bigger bodies. And again, you know, you totally should be free to have the birth that you want. And if you want to see section that is totally, totally respected and fine, but you shouldn't be made to feel like you have to have one because of your size of your body. Like there are benefits to having vaginal birth, there are benefits to C section. We should be given the option and you should be allowed to make that decision on your own.

Victoria:
Oh, it's just maddening. Maddening. I'm going, what were you gonna say?

Nicola:
I said it was going to say, it's just like this hyper focused fat phobic or weight stigma if just like all concentrated in this tiny area and it's just like magnifies everything because you know, it's this kind of life bringing into the world and it's just seen as so dangerous. It's, yeah, just crazy.

Victoria:
And on top of that, the guilt because there's another human involved your baby. The guilt of, you're such a bad parent because you're so fat. Oh my God. How could you do that to your baby? Yeah, actually on that TV show that was on, Who Are You Calling Fat, one of the people on there, she had given birth and she had gestational diabetes and she was there crying saying, I feel like such a bad mother. And you know, if I was there in that moment, not that she would have wanted me to be like, no, no, you're not a bad mother because you are fat and you had gestational diabetes. You're a bad mother if you're, you know, are a dickhead to your kids and the crew and things like that. Like things that like killed anybody. Yeah, right. You had gestational diabetes and you were fine and the baby was fine and you know, but it's really hard not to believe that because we're told being fat is a personal failing. And then when you have another person involved, the baby. Then you are just a monster for choosing quote unquote choosing to be fat.

Nicola:
Oh, and the thing is it doesn't stop there. Like the doctors are talking to me now about like fat babies, so like fat people having a higher risk of having fat babies and then, Oh my God, you know, like what can we do with these fat babies that are, you know, making it seem like this poor child who's barely been born is now like a health risk of all these other things going wrong in their life. You know, they're five minutes old and all they do, they're labeled as fat and unhealthy. You know, like it just doesn't stop. It's just, it's a joke.

Victoria:
I never heard about that before. I always thought like having a fat baby. He was like, Oh, good that fat. They're like sturdy. They're ready for the world. And, but now they're like, no, they're not spelt enough.

Nicola:
Yeah. Well, no, that's he fat now. And Oh, I read this, the heartbreaking story about this, I can't remember where I read it now, but it was this woman who was so worried about her, a baby being fat, that she wasn't feeding her enough. He wasn't giving her enough milk and giving her water instead because she was worried about how being too fat, this is a baby and the baby got so malnourished that the baby dies. And that's, Oh, how do we get to a point in our society where people are so worried about how big their babies are, that they are doing this to them?

Victoria:
Oh my God. Like, you know, it's very common to be like that with, I don't know, total is up because you know, parents are so terrified that their children are going to be fat. But I didn't, I never, I mean, I'd had, you know, I watched that there was one film. Do you remember seeing that film? You know, they'll film? No. You're like, what film?

Nicola:
That was a film where the it wasn't a true story, but the mother was only feeding the baby like vegan food and then only feeding it water and things like that. I've not seen it.

Victoria:
I think Adam Drivers in it I might be wrong anyway. And so I knew that that was a thing in fiction, but seeing it play out in real life and, you know, obviously it's happened before and I wonder how, you know, it just goes to show how powerful fat phobia is that you could think, genuinely believe that was what was best for the baby. Yeah. It's just, Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I want it to be lots of fat babies and, you know, chubby legs and big fat cheeks and all that sort of deliciousness. Oh yeah. Just yummy. Yes. And so after the baby is born is there any issues accessing care then or is there a different type of care then if you are in a bigger body?

Nicola:
It's tricky because a lot of people are kind of left to their own devices after their baby's born. There isn't a huge amount of postnatal care in our country. And as far as I'm aware, it's not really a big thing in any gift. The Western countries for the clients I work with. But I can say is that kind of once you give them birth, literally as soon as you give them birth, your body again becomes almost public property and they're like, Oh, so you know what you're doing to lose the baby weight and Oh, have you heard that breastfeeding helps you lose weight and the losing weight, the diets, the targeting on social media from all the like fit, get fit, do this with a post-baby body stuff is strong like the message is strong that you have to shrink your body again.

Victoria:
Mmm Hmm. Yeah. some are in and who's my friend? She is, she does the same thing as me and she has a baby and she was just like, its mm. It's just wicked. How everything in the pregnancy stuff that she is reading is well, make sure that you're not fat lose away and you know, just constant, you need to be thin and get your, you know, get your sexy body back and all that sort of bullshit. And you know, obviously I've not experienced that, but you know, he just makes me want to stab someone in the face. You know.

Nicola:
That's it again, these women are, you know, humans are such a vulnerable time in their life, you know, like taking care of a tiny human, they've got no idea what they're doing and they're being bombarded again saying, your body's not enough. Your body, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. And it's like, it's so bad for your mental health. So bad.

Victoria:
Yeah. Just, and as well, like kind of like that layering of, of the patriarchy that your body is this object and is your spouse now looking at you in a different way versus is your spouse bowing down at your feet being like, Holy shit, you just made a baby and you're amazing. You know, and that's what we should be expecting versus, you know, Oh, it's just my spouse saying that my body's not good enough now. And you know, do they want to date someone or be with someone who hasn't had a baby? And it's just the wrong thing that we're being told to focus on. You know?

Nicola:
Yeah. It's the last thing we should be focusing on. We should be focusing on how have we got enough sleep? Are we drinking enough water? You know, like these basic needs. Are they being met? And it should go well above and beyond that. But you know, like most people aren't even getting those basic needs met at this time in their lives. And it's the fact that we have to almost be putting what our body looks like above those basic needs is terrifying.

Victoria:
Well, as long as our is skinny and the baby is skinny and we're both catwalk ready, then nothing else matters. Right. Good. Yeah. Oh my God. So what would you say to someone who wants to get pregnant or is having struggles with their fertility or is pregnant or has just given birth? What advice would you give to those people?

Nicola:
So I think the biggest thing for me when I was starting out on this journey was surrounding myself with other people who looked like me. So whatever stage you're at, whether you want to get pregnant, you are pregnant, you've just had a baby. Surround yourself with people in bigger buddies who are at that stage of their life. You know, find like on Instagram is my favorite place. But find other people who are going through this thing a similar thing with you and hopefully aren't too entrenched in diet culture that all they talk about is dieting, right? You just want to be able to have other people going through this experience. People see, see all the bud lease, you look like your body's like postnatal or during pregnancy because your body will look different than the magazines show you that your body should look like in pregnancy and postnatal. It's really about, you know, finding other examples and normalizing what you see in the mirror versus kind of what you see on the outside world. That was the most helpful thing that's helped me when I've been going through all this stuff.

Victoria:
And what about we, we've spoken about this before, the trusting of your body to get pregnant.

Nicola:
It's such a huge part because we're told over and over and over and over again that your body won't get pregnant, but you can't practice people. Fat people can't get pregnant. And you just become, and you're so used to diet culture telling you that you can't trust your body. Like you can't trust your hunger signals. You can't trust your cues. You can't trust what it's telling you that we just get so disassociated from our bodies. And I think when you want to get pregnant, we building that trust can be a really important piece of the puzzle. So just really getting in touch with how your cycles working because you know, you need, you know, having a healthy cycle can be really helpful when you want to get pregnant. And just, yeah, just really paying attention to what your body needs and what your body wants is a really beautiful way to reconnect with your body. And your body is going to be fucking phenomenal. Your body is going to create human being. You know, you need to be able to trust it to do that and to go through that process without, you know, this fear and worry that we're told that we have to, you know, you have to be afraid if it has and you have to be afraid of that because the truth is that you don't, and most people will not get gestational diabetes or preeclampsia, you know, all these scary things. Most people are going to have completely happy, healthy pregnancies and babies at the end of it.

Victoria:
I get this sense that for a fat person, a good thing is just to kind of relax and, you know, you're like you say trust yourselves and not worry so much.

Nicola:
I mean, telling people to just relax is a much harder thing. Just chill out. Would you relax? Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, finding ways that you can support yourself so that you aren't constantly worried and stressed and thinking about this all the time. Like you don't want this stuff keeping you up at night because you need sleep. Like sleep is just as important as what you're eating to support your health and wellbeing. But finding ways that you can look after yourself and support yourself, just be really kind to yourself I think is a really good place to start because we are so used to being ourselves up in front buddies. We are so used to that being the norm of like the thoughts that go around the round around in our heads. Like you guys were told as good faculties we're supposed to be thinking about our next dialogue or our next Weber. So really just being kind to yourself and thinking, okay, one of my favorite things to do is just to stop and pause and go, what do I need right now? Do I need a drink? Do I need to go for a week? You know, like meeting my needs and just really honoring what my body needs in any given moment. It's really only way that you can like do this, right? You know, you're only in the present moment and say, just going for what your body needs and give a moment.

Victoria:
Mm, beautiful. Beautiful. So obviously people want to know more about this and you have a book, right? You tell us about it, Fat and fertile.

Nicola:
So, I self published it about six months ago now and the response I've had has been phenomenal. I am so grateful. It took me a long time to write because I was absolutely petrified of being a fat fertility coach. You know, like this is one of when I was coming to terms with you and I have deceased me and I'm going to have to be fat for the rest of my life. Does this mean I'm not going to be happy? You know, I had to work for all that shit that I'd kind of taken on board. So it's just, it sat in my drawer for around time, but finally it's in the light of day and I'm just, you know, people are so happy to be able to read abook that's about that body that's not written by a thin person telling them to lose weight and to eat all the kale and Afrikaans day that they can find. It's really about looking at ways that you can support yourself in a bigger body and how you can advocate for yourself in a big bowl if you need to and how to, you know, practical stuff around, you know, what, what can you do to work for these beliefs that you have that you're not able to get pregnant in your bigger body. And it's kind of a lot of nice stuff in there as well about like I did and how my journey to pregnancy was. So it's really just, I like to describe it as a hug in a book. It's really kind of comforting, nourishing, loving book.

Victoria:
Mm. And so where can people get it on your website? On Amazon.

Nicola:
It's on Amazon. All over the world. That was the easiest way I could self publish it. I know Amazon is a bit, but yeah, it was just the easiest way to get it out there so people can read it. So it's, yeah. Ebook and you can get a paper copy as well.

Victoria:
Amazing. So you're the best. I'm just soaking in all this knowledge that you've shared and I know you have so much more, so people should definitely go and get your book and go to your websites. Which is nicolasalmon.co.uk and I'm going to link your social links. You're on Instagram is Fat Positive fertility and Facebook. So people can go and have a creep, have a look and be like, Oh yes. Oh my God. Yes. This is so right. But something I like to do is at the end of each episode, I share a fact about me. And now you have sent me some facts about you and every single one, I was like, get out all your fact. So way better than my facts. I'm like, what how rude! Like my facts are like, Oh, I like having a nice pool and having a nice page. You'll fax it like, Oh, I'm a film star. Oh, I'm a new Keela physicist. Get out lifeguard. What? Okay, so I'm going to read to somebody who's out, but I want you to explain some more. So once you were an extra in a film with James McAvoy, what was that then? Superstar.

Nicola:
They did film at my university. I went to University College London, in London. And they filmed a quite, remember what the film is called now. How bad is that? Stopped at the town it's called. It was before James McAvoy was really a film star. I'd really had no idea who it was at the time. But yeah, it's basically just me like walking behind him on this film. Yeah. Which was fun. Is there a fun, actually.

Victoria:
Is there a clip on the internet?

Nicola:
I'm sure I could find you a clip. Yeah, I'll find you want to send it to you.

Victoria:
Yeah, amazing. So your next fact is before you're a fertility coach, you were a nuclear physicist and part of your job was to clean a radioactive toilet. Was that a toilet that I'd been on?

Nicola:
No. Why us radioactive? It's actually really radioactive. So I used to trained before I was a coach, I trained as a medical physicist. So I did a master's in medical engineering and physics and I ended up working in the nuclear medicine department at a hospital in London. And we gave lots of different people for cancers and various things like radioactive medicines to help with that cancers. One of the things, one of the treatments was that they had to stay in a room isolated because they were so ready to actually, if they couldn't be around people. So part of our job at the end of it and they'd finish that day and I could go hide and was to kind of go around the room and clean everything clean all the toilets and everything and test it with one of those BPPP for my chest to make sure it wasn't too radioactive for the people to be around.

Victoria:
And how'd you clean a radioactive toilet? Is it just lots of bleach?

Nicola:
Yeah, lots of bleach. The grease. Yeah.

Victoria:
I thought it'd be like some kind of radioactive bleach. Like there's no cool lasers involved. No, I thought that's what I thought was there. Just be lasers and smoke and stuff. You've ruined it for me, Nicola. Sorry. And you were qualified lifeguard at university, so you're an amazing swimmer. Jealous.

Nicola:
Not anymore. Well, no. You probably remember how to do it right. It's like riding a bike. Well, I'm not sure about the lifesaving you there, but the swimming, but yeah. Did you ever save anyone's life? The only incident I ever had to deal with was so it was like a university swimming pool and they have clubs. The only incident was when the trainee life cops, you had their own little club but practicing saving each other and one of them hit them over the head with a light lifesaving brain.

Victoria:
Oh no. Really? Yeah. That was it. And then you're like, get out the way, stupid. I'll say. Yeah. And you can wiggle only one year. Why only one?

Nicola:
Well, if I take a lot of practice, this is what I was doing when I supposed to be revising for my degree. I was just like practicing like this light, just one muscle, like in my ear. I think it's my left ear. I can wake anything just like, but you got to make sure you don't do your eyebrow at the same time.

Victoria:
I'm literally trying to do it now. Are you doing it now?

Nicola:
Yeah. I'm like, can I do it? Can I, am I now for secret elf? No, I can't do that. Yeah.

Victoria:
Thank you so much for being on the show. I so appreciate it. You are an amazing first guest. Oh my gosh. The best. Yes. yeah. And sharing all your knowledge, like that is a lot. So you making the world a better place and this information is so goddamn important and you've made me so angry that I am just going to go into my local doctor's office and be like, fuck you all, I do. But she also checked me up with your wonderful facts that make me feel very jealous. Yes. So thank you and thank you listener for hanging out with us today. A reminder to share that you're listening to this podcast and you are going to be put into a draw to win a Fierce Fatty mug. And if you and/or you don't have to do both, but if you write a review about the podcast on Stitcher or Stitcher, Stitcher, Spotify, Spotify and Apple, Apple, iTunes, thingamajig, not Stitcher, ignore me. Then email me, take a screenshot before you submit it and email me with that. And I will send you a digital and audio copy of my best selling book, which is also called Fierce Fatty. So I will see you on the next episode, Fatty. Good bye.