Episode 188 Transcript
SUMMARY:
Anti-fat bias in the workplace with personal experiences and a citizenship ceremony. 0:00
Body size, marginalized identities, and survey data. 6:00
Workplace discrimination against fat individuals, with 76.8% reporting yes. 11:04
Anti-fatness in the workplace, including personal stories and experiences. 16:05
Anti-fat bias in the workplace. 20:51
Weight-related experiences in the workplace. 28:45
Body shaming, diet culture, and trauma. 34:12
Weight-related stigmas and body shaming in a workplace setting. 38:37
Body shaming and stigma in medical settings. 43:09
Weight-related challenges in the workplace. 48:25
Workplace wellness initiatives and body shaming. 54:39
Body shaming, size inclusivity, and customer interactions in various industries. 58:44
Anti-fat bias and its impact on marginalized communities. 1:03:14
Fat positivity, inclusive workplaces, and anti-fat bias training. 1:08:58
Read the transcript alongside the audio.
Vinny Welsby 0:00
You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 188 fat at work stories. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let’s do it.
Vinny Welsby 0:26
Hello, welcome to this episode sorry, we're a week or two late I have ADHD, as you might know, listen to the show. And with a monthly podcast schedule, I'm out of amount of out of the rhythm of making one a week. And so I have a reminder to record a podcast, but I just I must have seen it and just totally missed it. And then last week, I was like, I'm recording a podcast in like, a month. Shouldn't I do but we're doing it soon. And I was like, oh, yeah, I should have done it last week. So sorry for the delay. I've been getting up to some stuff, some stuff. As you might have noticed, I've been focusing on on some work you very workI stuffy type of stuff. With my weight inclusive consulting. And I did a survey I'm doing a survey. And it's about it's called anti fat bias in the workplace survey. So far, we've had 327 responses, which is amazing. So it's been out for about a couple of weeks. And in it, it's asking only fat people to tell us about their experiences in the workplace. And boy, oh, my lord, a huge trigger warning. If you don't want to hear about people's experiences of anti fat bias in the workplace, and people what bosses are getting up to what mentions of eating disorders, comments, or hearing what the comments people have have experienced, which are egregious. What else just asked all types of shit. If you're not in the mood for all types of nasty anti fat bias shifts, then this episode, if you want to, if you want to feel like you're within the community, and you're sharing experiences, and you want to hear some stories and and have your mouth, your jaw hang open from horror, and your eyes pop out with unbelievable surprise, as if you have eyes and a mouth. Or let your brain do that, then, then this is the this is the episode for you. Hey, guess what? Guess what I did today. I've been in Canada for 15 years. And this morning, I had my citizenship ceremony. And so I'm almost officially a Canadian citizen. Yeah. So almost a fish I don't know, I think I think I am. They just say afterwards, you have to sign a form. And then you get your certificates. And if you don't sign the form, then I'll sign the form and send it off. So it's always like, am I am I am I gonna throw me out. But it was really, it was really sweet to see all the other immigrants there was about it was about we did a virtual ceremony. There was I think, about 150 people on a zoom call. And a lot of people had like, decorated the back of it, like the you could see behind them like Canadian flags, and they're waving flags, and there were people with babies and kids and they were excited and and actually, my eyeballs got another moist because they weren't they there was a video showing about you know, proud to be a Canadian and then like indigenous stuff and and it said welcome home. And I was like I have my stable. My sidewall alert. Because it's, I really love I'd really do love living here. And it's taken me so long to do this citizenship thing because of my neuro divergence. It seemed like an impossible dream, like an impossible feat. And it wasn't it was because someone at my choir was like, why don't you just do the application by December just do it by the end of the year and I was like okay, I'll just do that and she'd like kind of told me about her experience and it seemed like and you could do it online and and that's the only reason I did it is because I had someone kind of He's helping me through. I had someone to help me through before actually, I'd applied before. And they were helping me through and then I'd sent everything off. And they came back saying, we need originals of your passport. And I was like, what the fuck I'm, and then anyway, then then my apartment flooded and the application got kind of wet. And I was like, no brain shut down cannot cannot continue with the application. And that was like, maybe six years ago and I was like, I can't, I can't I started the application. But I can't I cannot continue because else's barrier that seemed insurmountable, which was to send my passport. And this time, they didn't ask for the original passport, I don't think. But anyway, anyway, it's done. I'm very proud of myself, and very happy. And so now I have a Canadian passport and a British passport. And then at some point, I'll get an Irish passport because my mum's Irish. Because the UK is not part of the EU, which is so embarrassing. Oh, anyway, if you're watching on video, you can always watch the, the the show on YouTube. If you've if you're someone like rosacea, like me, I just put on some, there's a medication called unreality or unreal tear, or I don't know how you pronounce it, I just put it on my, my my right cheek because it's burning up. And so it takes half an hour to work. So during the podcast, you can watch and see if my cheek slowly turns less scarlet red, to see if it's if it works, and how much it works. If you're interested in trying to medication. Obviously, I'm totally different human. But if you heard me or interested, a little study for you. What it is, is just a cream that stops like it's shrinks the blood vessels on your face temporarily. So anyway, anyway, let's talk about people's stories. So we've got a ton of data, or if you are someone who doesn't say that data, so we've got lots of data 327 people have shared their stories and who there's, it's interesting, it's interesting that what I've done is I have separated it it by different marginalized identities, and I can see the ways that I can make this better next time. Like I asked people do you? Are you in a bigger body? Or have you been in the bigger body previously? And I think next time I'd want to know what sighs body, I wanted to make the survey a little bit shorter. But I was just like, oh, I have to add this question. It's essential. I need this question. This question. I was like, Oh, I don't want it. That'd be a barrier. You know, there'll be 40 questions, and people say fuck that. So there's 12 questions. So I think next time, I will take out a couple of questions and put in put in a different one. Another question, which would be what is your size? Anyway, so 98.5% of the 327 people said, they're currently in a bigger body. And then five people said that they are in a smaller body now, but used to have a bigger body. Isn't that interesting? How 98.5% Isn't that very similar to the diet failure rate. Not saying that any of these be these people who've been on a diet, but I just thought that was kind of interesting. The average person who took age it was 30 to 39. So that was 44%. And then 40 to 49 was 30%. And then 20 to 29 was 15%. Most people come from the US and Canada that took the survey, let's give you some numbers. And some numbers, I made a mistake of saying Where do you currently live and just let people type it out. And you know, the amount of different variations of the US or the US US u dot S U S A U S of America, United States. So that is like multiple, multiple, multiple different things anyway. We had 192 People from the US 39 from the UK 100 And I'm just wondering where that 100 night from us and it from us. 54 Canada 10, Australia, Germany six, Netherlands three, Wales two, and we have people from India, Finland, Denmark, Argentina, Belgium, Italy, Northern Ireland, Spain, Sweden. So we had a cross section of Have not a good cross section of moderate cross section of countries. So, do you have other marginalized identities aside from being fat? Most people, most people said that they were women 89% Then we had 44% saying that they're neurodivergent 39 said 39% said that they're queer.
Vinny Welsby 10:25
So that's lesbian, gay, asexual, etc. 24% said that they're disabled. 13% said that they were lower economic status 5.3% said that they were related racialized. So that's a big, missing demographic there is racialized, or equity deserving race or ethnicity. Vote. So people like black Latinx, Latin, a Asian, indigenous, etc. So that's who is missing in a big way from this, this information. But we do have stories. So what type of Okay, so? Have you experienced discrimination at work due to your size? The answers are yes, no, we're not sure. 76.8% said yes, that they've experienced discrimination or bias because of their size at work. 18% said not sure. And 4.9% said, No. Now we have seen in previous studies on what percentage of people have experienced bias, around about 40% of people said that they've experienced bias. Now that is in life, and then others are in health care. This one is specifically at work. And this is people who are in my audience. And so in my audience, you are probably more aware of what anti fat bias is. And so I noticed that a lot of people who were saying No, I haven't experienced bias or discrimination. The next question was, What things have you experienced, they ticked off lots of things, which was discrimination and bias. And so I was like, okay, so I wonder if they were they were thinking, Oh, these things aren't discrimination or bias. And I wonder if because we've got 76%, almost 77% of people saying that they have experienced bias in the workplace. That number is so high. Because you all know what that looks like. And I wonder actually, if the reality is is actually higher, because you know, that 18% saying not sure. And then most of them are saying, so 60 People said, not sure. And then the next question, I said, what type of discrimination or bias did you experience. And so of those 660 people, only 12 said, I didn't experience bias, but the rest of them continued and checked off lots of different things, ways that they have experienced bias. So then only a third of them from that, from that section. have said that they didn't experience any any of the following things. So I find that kind of interesting. A lot of this is kind of guessing what people are thinking, but then we've got stories, right? So I'm going to tell you the stories too, so don't worry, we've got stories. Okay, so what type of discrimination or bias did you experience by the way, I just didn't I didn't even tell you what the heck I'm doing with this survey. Obviously, I'm sharing you some some bits of information. But I'm actually creating this into a huge weight inclusive consulting report, which will share all this information and stories probably not as many stories that I'm going to share like all of them in the in an index you know, at the back just being like his all 300 Plus stories If people are interested in reading them, because I know a lot of people would be because I I am interested in reading them. But I'm going to make it into a into a document so that organizations can have that in, you know, the HR team, the diversity team, company leaders, anyone who wants to use that information to advocate for fat liberation to advocate for treating fat people like no human being through change. It's so strange. So the biggest thing that the number one thing that people experienced, what type of discrimination 87% said diet talk in the office. I should have that word that that different means that a diet talk in the office. I should have just said diet talk. So diet talk 294 People said Yep, experience that the next popular one was body size ignored in diversity, equity and inclusion training. The one after that is open discussion slash talk where people share anti fat views. And the next one is quote unquote, wellness initiatives. And then we have exercise challenge. Seating not inclusive, no policies to protect me from discrimination. 21 People said that they've been denied a point in employment 51 People said that they were not promoted. So that's six per 6.5%, denied employment, not promoted as 15.7% paid less 13.8% 45 people fired. Seven people were fired, or disciplined for being fat or higher weight and a bigger body. So there's lots of different other options. So we'll share that on the survey, but they're the big ones. And I think that's a huge thing is the diet talk and the anti fatness, it's so normalized is like breathing in some of these offices in some of these work places. It just really is so normalized. And a lot of times people are saying sitting down to lunch, sitting down to lunch was really traumatizing, because that's all people spoke about was food. Just you know, so many so many responses, just saying that that is just the the rhetoric. And so I think that that's a really important thing that we need to change, we need to make it so that people know that it is taboo to start talking about food and losing weight in the workplace. Or know that there's going to be consequences, right. So let's get into some stories. And then we'll get back to some more stats because we've got stories. And so we've organized them by theme. And honestly, this has been so difficult, because every one that I read, I'm like, oh my god, we need to include this. And the next one, I'm like, Oh, my God, we need to include this, we need to, and this, this one, this one, this one, this one, I'm like, we can't have 327 or whatever stories. Because they will be we'll be here all day. But they're all so valuable. And it's so hard to pick, which are the most powerful or you know, that will have the biggest impact on people and help change things. Right. So I've tried, I've tried, but again, I think I'm gonna include every single story in the back of the report. So, you know, everyone's voices heard because I think that's that's important. Okay, so why do we wish we start? Where should we start? You know, what I'm going to start with? There's some just general stories that I just thought they can fit a few different categories, but I think they're just you know, want to hear these experiences. Okay, so the question that was in the survey, the people are answering this question. What was your experience of anti fatness in the workplace? share as much or as little as you like, I'll share your specific stories anonymously. Okay, so people have, you know, lots of space to write and say whatever they want. So this is what people said, I feel so unseen and angry when my workplace goes out of the way to include so many other marginalized identities in our dei work, but body size is not included. It feels like such a glaring omission to me and sends a message that my workplace either completely doesn't understand why we need to be talking about fatness or just doesn't care. That's from a 30 to 39 woman from the US. Agree, Agree, Agree 100%. How I'm thinking like, how does that make everyone else feel? It makes me you know, you know, the fat folks. That was such a huge, pun intended, large, pun intended, significant, pun intended, part of the employee population, right. Many people are in bigger bodies with a biggest equity deserving group, right? I'm wearing almost exclusively. So it's like, you know, hello. Come on. It makes me feel really kind of
Vinny Welsby 20:03
it makes me feel mad. It makes me feel mad when I experienced that. You all when you see on forums like, oh, we really wants to, you know, make sure that we're getting, we're being inclusive in our application or whatever it is. And they'll say, Are you Are you part of any of these groups, and they'll just include a few. And hang on, you're missing off gender diverse people, you're missing off disabled people, you're missing off, and almost 19. And I've never seen them ever mentioned people with bigger bodies, never. But often they miss other things. So if they should just say, you know, here are some options and also include fat people, but then also have the, you know, other or just tell us what groups you're part of. Someone else said so much, it's hard to capture it all. It is hard to fill any ease at work, diet, weight loss, and anti fat Body Talk crop up regularly, even during professional meetings. I greatly prefer days when I get to work remotely. I met many colleagues virtually first and their responses of seeing me in person where I was clearly fatter than they were expecting made me uncomfortable. I also felt like some people treat me differently after meeting me in person. The physical workspace isn't accommodating with seats that aren't sturdy, or and or have arms, we have regular office events where I'm required to wear a branded t shirt that doesn't come in my size. I think this common encompasses a lot of the different themes, which is branded t shirt, not resize the chairs, work from home being better. Weight Loss talk anti fat talk, coming up regularly in professional meetings. This is a lot this is kind of like a good overview of what the fat experiences but this is kind of, you know, in gentle words, without the egregious kind of this is how people talk. I'm going to share those as well. I think that's a big that's a big thing is work from home, I think is a really good solution for many people, not just people in bigger bodies, but disabled people, neurodivergent people etc. To navigate the workplace. And so I think that that would help with decreasing the amount of anti fat bias people are exposed to. Don't have to be in contact with other humans as much who was spouting this shit. Ah. Okay, so next comment hours long discussions of diets and body size competitive fitness challenges by department. If you don't walk X steps, you're letting the department down on site dietitian measuring body fat percentages for staff as part of part of a quote, wellness day demands for low calorie catering during staff retreats. I had a one on one lunch with my boss who asked me if I had, quote, earned my carbs. As we looked at the menu, I've had matching, I've had matching T shirts handing out at all staff events in sizes that wouldn't fit me and have been flooded with compliments on my weight loss when I was severely ill. That's from a queer woman who's neurodivergent 30 to 39. In the US, coming from a work from home to in office position, I was shocked at how prevalent and pervasive the diet organ culture was. The amount of times I've heard, quote, working here is going to give me diabetes. Because someone did to bring in doughnuts no matter how many times I've taken the time to explain what the actual risk factors are for diabetes, just so it shows how much they don't care, and that they'd rather continue with their fat phobic rhetoric. In addition, it's a constant policing of food. Are you having another one that looks when you say that you did to rest or turn down participating in the latest quote, wellness challenge, and just the constant air of being judged? Which I fully recognize isn't as bad as it could be. But it is exhausting to constantly be exposed to it and shown how many people think you're wrong for simply existing and daring to enjoy your existence in a fat body. I think you know, which I fully recognize isn't a bad isn't as bad as it could be. Yes. And it's also really fucking bad. Like, this stuff. I just think about the cumulative effect that this stuff has on our mental well being and our and our health and our success in the workforce. You know, just that constant air of being judged. That story is from a 20 to 2920 to 29 year old, disabled queer person from the United States. A lot of people were saying that they have To eat their lunch in their car. That was a common story, eating lunch in my car. Because it got so overwhelming to listen to diet talk and anti fatness in the office that they had to remove themselves, or people looking at what they're eating and judging and saying out loud, what they're thinking. This comment is interesting, because I think this is really important for a lot of people, especially if we're looking at people in the DEI world who hope that they are working on biases and I think a lot of or the more that I'm exposed to the DEI world, the more I'm like, What the fuck because you I don't know about you, but I always thought that people who were committed to and learning stuff would be committed to unlearning stuff and doing better. A lot of them come up with really fucked up things around fatness. Really, really a lot of what I'm doing I'm just like flabbergasted thinking, hang on. You do this as a job, right? What? But anyway, this comment says so much of the anti fat bias and comments I hear a word come from people who truly believe they are not biased against fat folks. It's often their own body image issues and insecurities that prompt these comments in the first place. But they seem to like any awareness of how triggering and harmful these comments are. It feels invalidating of my work and my being. And that's the thing is is the most one way unlearning anti fatness the most egregious you know when we're really into it a second time I said egregious the most you know when you're steeped in anti fatness, you are openly like, oh, I can have fat people the disgusting. Then when you overcome that bit, and you're like, Okay, well fat people are, are are human and shit, and they deserve respect and access and all that type of stuff. Then you're like that, but then you say it but me, ah, disgusting. And that goes for if you're in a bigger body, and you're not in a bigger body. And so, so often how this stuff manifests is oh, I shouldn't I've been so naughty, you know, oh, I should really get on a diet and oh, you know, all that type of stuff. Oh, I look so fat today. Self depreciating. If someone is saying that and they're in a smaller body is harmful if you know no matter what, but especially if they're in a smaller body. And the colleague is there sat opposite. They're meeting their lunch in a bigger body. And you have your smaller bodied colleague being like, Oh, I'm so greedy and fat. Because I ate. I licked a just ball the other day and so I mustn't eat for the next 17 years. And I Oh, I'm just the biggest I've ever been. I was really bad. I don't know. But you're good. No, you're fine. You're beautiful. No, don't call yourself fat. No, you're gorgeous. Hello, bit of a disconnect there. What's going on? So the stories that I found were the most sad and enraging was the stories about what your bosses, what your supervisors what company leaders have said. Okay, so let's hear some of those stories encouraged and assumed to have had weight loss surgery. While I was out of work for my mental health, due to a s a, was told by my boss that he was not shocked about a type two diagnosis, constant and incessant diet talk and fat body hate talk at every corner of the office. An old office manager wouldn't say to my face that she would rather die than be fat. That is from a 50 to 59 year old woman in the United States. When I first took a job with my current employer, my supervisor had just started a new diet and constantly pushed it to me to the point where I was concerned that if I didn't also do this diet, I could lose my job. I chose not to sit at my job because the chairs do not fit me. That's from a woman United States 40 to 49.
Vinny Welsby 29:50
One of the most memorable ones for me was the time I cheered during a meeting. And my boss responded with Hey, You burned a calorie. That's just that one for me really, really hits. Because you're there cheering you know, something, presumably something good happened and we're sharing a moment of joy. And that joy, that joy and connection is just torn apart. By, hey, you burned a calorie. That's like, you know, when you feel safe and you're like, Oh, this is good and you're having a good time. And then, in an instant, it's eviscerated. And you're brought back to reality that you can't even cheer or be in a team or participate without your boss saying, thinking about your body. That one really hit for me. That's a disabled woman, the US 30 to 39. There are wellness initiatives every year, some of which include a monetary bonus, I've been subjected to a lot of diet talk. I wouldn't waste calories on white carbs, etc. Coworkers once judge the size of my garden salad asking if I was going to eat all of that, and stating, if I ate a salad that big, I wouldn't be hungry all day, I'd skip dinner. My former manager made jokes about the eating habits of multiple co workers and other departments. In one of the only wellness initiatives I've participated in tracking servings of vegetables each day, I was one of the only participants and I think I may have won. No winner was announced alone. And the plan prize was never given out. Once overheard a supervisor observing me getting seconds from a monthly lunch buffet and telling a colleague that one just thinks with their stomach. It's overwhelming, isn't it? You wouldn't feel safe, you wouldn't feel safe being doing anything. I mean, we know this right? We know this. We know this. That's from a 40 to 49 year old United States queer, gender diverse neurodivergent person. Just that surveillance, surveillance, surveillance and mistrust. Like, just you know, you eat in a salad. And it's, oh my God, how could you eat that? That's so huge. And this person, they said, I overheard a supervisor not my direct supervisor, not even your direct supervisor. What the fuck is it got to do with them. It's not even gonna It's got nothing to do with anyone anyway, but like, you're not even safe with other people. This person says my first real job the head boss called me Miss Piggy behind my back. And everyone else for two years. I only learned a bit after I left and a colleague finally came clean for two years. This person, woman lowest socio economic status us that it is 89 was called Miss Piggy by the head boss. I just can't even I just can't I just can't even and no one. No, they just let it happen. And they say you know is the head boss. I understand this power dynamics there but you know, maybe even telling them like if I was if there was some power dynamic where I didn't feel safe to say something I share I mean, I can't imagine me not. Can you imagine if someone said to me, Oh Miss Piggy, blah blah blah and I I'd be thinking that they were meaning it as an as in their fabulous person. Because I want everyone compute to me for the first second that they were trying to be derogatory anyway. But obviously, this person is trying to be derogatory, right? You know, you you would you would shut that down in any way. You couldn't. If you couldn't, you would go and tell the person. You are not safe here. This is what's happening. I don't know that would do that. Me. That's all I would have. I don't know. It was primarily directed at women supervisors or co workers pointing out a larger woman and saying looks like she's about to pop or she could afford to miss a few meals. That's from a racialized person woman who has a minority religion in the US 30 to 39. I once worked worked for a men's health organization. I was told I needed to be smaller from the executive director to reflect men's health. I am a woman. It made me feel terrible. That someone 40 to 49 from Canada racialized woman. Someone was stuck out working in a front desk nonprofit and had to eat my lunch on my desk often. Supervisor saw sticky been on my desk and said, Wow, I guess you're really treating yourself and then saw a dish of peas the next day and said, keep that up, you'll see some change lots of hyper fitness focused staff. And they added in movement breaks to meetings that were high intensity, interval activities. And not accessible for all being told by director that we weren't using health insurance a lot. And that was a good thing financially. So we should quote keep it up and encouraged after joining the running club or start climb stairs to make sure that we wouldn't need to use it in the future. That's from an neurodivergent person in the US 30 to 39. So many experiences one but one that stands out is being asked by a bully anti fat manager. Are you going to eat them all? When I brought in some doughnuts to share on my last day? 40 to 49 year old woman in the UK. I hate it here. I hate it here. This is just what I really like is that what really gets me is the the moments of joy or community and connection that are destroyed by anti fatness and diet culture. I don't know about you. But that one, those ones really get me when you're like, you know, and this must be some healed shit from from my childhood, that you know what it is, you know what it is? I know what it is. I know what it is. I tell this story in therapy like, a few times a year, I probably told you a lot as well. But I remember when I had a balloon, I went to Burger King for the one and only time in my childhood when I got invited to a birthday party there. And so this was like, flip your shit best thing has ever happened. Right? And so you know, you get the balloons on the sticks. And so I took that home like beyond happy. And my dad was a bully and abusive and he couldn't handle any noise. He I think he was he was neurodivergent never diagnosed. And I was silently playing with this balloon on a stick literally just gently wiggling it about and just the I don't know something about that really annoyed my dad and he said, Oh, come up here. Let me see that balloon. And he took a cigarette and he popped it. And I think that's why you know when someone's having experiencing joy. why that's so powerful to me that someone comes in pop literally burst that balloon. Ah. And even my mum. She would never she wouldn't stand up to my dad and I remember even my mum said, Roger, that's my dad's name. And I was like, Oh, I know that's fucked up. Because even my mum said Roger, and then then my lips started trembling and but we didn't cry. And then I think my dad was like, gonna look at you whinging and something like that. That word that word is difficult to whinge off. Anyway, so maybe other people have other you know, like other experiences which make other stories really difficult for them to hear. But that joy being crushed as as my is my one. I don't worry about it. Don't worry about me. I'm in therapy. Everything's fine. Okay, so some general anti fat talk. I once had a woman my office looked me right in the eye and suggested a sponsored slim, a sponsor Slim is like a sponsored weight loss. You know, people pay to lose weight, a sponsored slim I wasn't even part of the conversation about ways to raise money for charity, so I guess I will doing a charity thing. I was just there minding my own business making a coffee. Like fuck off last a 30 to 39 year old UK disabled queer near division woman don't you just wish in those in those moments? You could just be like fuck off Sharon. Here the forecast you I'm just making a coffee. Why don't you do a sponsored shut the fuck up. God fucker now.
Vinny Welsby 39:31
Oh, this person who is a woman from the US 30 to 39 says it's always a little shocking. Recently in a presentation and metaphor was slides and drawings was used to describe how our processes had become fat and lazy. And these are the steps to run a marathon. I looked around to see if anyone else else in a group of 10 was noticing this, but I was the only fat person. Yeah, I get that too. That kind of what are we still we're still doing this even though we're not I know we're still doing this. What really gets me is I can't I can't read business books because they always crowbar in a conversation about weight loss or a metaphor about weight loss or about being fat. I'm like, What the fuck is fat got to do with taxes? And they were like, oh fuckin metaphor. I'm just like, why it's so common in the business world. It's It's bizarre. It's bizarre. This person who was 20 to 29 from the US queer woman neurodivergent says really judgmental talk from teammates equating sugary coffee to getting diabetes. We wish this whole fucking sugar and diabetes thing would just die a death. I mean, come on. Get with the program people diabetes is an almost exclusively a genetic contagion. Having a sugary coffee is not going to give you diabetes, which the other person shared that story of like, hey, educating about diabetes. And still people are like, Oh, anyway, so teammates quitting sugary coffees to getting diabetes judgments of others uncomfortable office manager and lack of inclusivity a teammate I felt close to once made a bunch of anti fat jokes about someone at Starbucks I got a super sugary drink and I just remember being so dejected as my team laughed and I wondered if they felt that way that way on the days I got a latte or brought something that wasn't a salad Mmm Hmm I don't understand how people don't understand that when they make jokes about someone else. They're also saying like the same things about everything everyone else in that you know in that in that room they're saying I think that people who do ABC I think people who eat sugar are whatever it is that they're saying when they know every single person that's around them has has and does eat sugar even if they're on a diet when they don't eat sugar they're selling sugar because if they didn't they die in some ways a sugar and lots of things anyway whatever what and then everyone's laughing along but everyone's probably thinking the same fucking thing like oh yeah good one good one. Oh, but I I like a tomato last week and that probably has like naught point naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught one gram of sugar and so do they think that I'm a greedy sugar eating monster. They probably do, you know, so even though everyone was laughing, everyone was probably all feeling like shit. And the person making the joke also feels like shit because they're making that type of joke. But then the person who's who's in the bigger body is the one who's getting the brunt of it, right? This person is from the US. They're 20 to 29. They are queer and lower socio economic status. They say I work in a hospital, and I've had doctors and nurses make comments about my weight to me. I had a red tag asked me why I thought I was so fat. When I told them I'd always been this size. He went on to tell me I was eating too much sugar without ever seeing me eat or drink anything. And without any input from me. I've also witnessed medical professionals speaking negatively about patients bodies in ways that weren't medically relevant. One particularly egregious example was when a trauma surgeon and ER nurse were overheard talking about how gross it was to watch CPR being done on a severely injured, injured and shirtless man in a large body. He even as he lie, lies lay there fighting for his life. People were commenting on his body was just this just so fucked up in such a vulnerable moment. Why would they be thinking about his body size unless it was relevant to the treatment and helping this person? That's why like, I would love to be able to donate my body to science. And because people need to study fat bodies, but one it would be rejected because my body's apparently too big to study their possible. But also, I know that my body would be a spectacle. You know, it wouldn't be like, Oh, here's an here's a normal body test just to study. It would be Oh, look at what fatness does it to a body Oh, look at this fat person. Oh, you know, on a documentary on BBC about you know, remember that that fat autopsy thing, just so violent and horrifying? You know? And that's like the deepest darkest fears is that like for me is the people have been kind to you. And in reality they they're turning the back and they're disgusted and a doctor patient relationship especially when you're going to be unconscious. I just really I feel really uncomfortable about it like when I got my gallbladder out and the doctor was just like, why what I'm presuming is sis hat guy and you know he didn't really talk to me and I just thought I just thought about him you know just roughly pulling up my robe whatever to access my stomach for the surgery and then you have to they have to blow up your stomach to not blow it up inflate it with air to so they can do the laparoscopic laparoscopic surgery and just thinking of me being there in such a vulnerable position and then what what are they thinking? You know, are they thinking like this and just hoping that they are are are kind people there to? Who will see you as human issues dog. This person who is a woman from the US 40 to 49 says the most memorable experience I had was during my peak time of disordered eating and exercise. When I was like my smallest employees started asking me if I was new. When did I start? When I like to go to lunch? I'd been there for 10 plus years. And then when I gained the weight back as most do, those employees stopped talking to me and ignoring me. And I was back to being invisible. This stuff. I mean, I felt like we need to have a break of like, I don't know watching a video of kittens or something. This is so this is a lot. You feel like this is a lot go watch go and watch a video that's gonna make you feel a bit better. Be of kittens isn't your thing. You're like a kitten you like a puppy? You know, I really like budgies. Oh, a bird. Oh, yes, this is new bird I started following I wish I could tell you the name of it. But the bird loves to go in a cupboard in the kitchen and throw the cups out of the cupboard. And the birds parents pretend that the bird is not allowed in the cupboard. But they cleared the cupboard out and put on plastic cups in and like bells and toys in there for him. And so whenever they open the cupboard the bird rushes in and is like and like marches around the cupboard throwing things around and they all like Oh stop being so naughty. You're such a bad bird like joking with him. And the birds is just having that having such a gale time. Oh, I do like that bird a lot. But I just you know, read like a really like a nice bird. What do you like? What's your favorite? Favorite silly animal? Maybe you don't like animals? Who are you? Who are you? Okay, next story, a woman from the UK 40 to 49 says, and what did an office where a colleague brought in a set of scales. Talking about slugging life of the party bringing in a set of scale so the office stop it. And everyone joined in with weighing themselves in front of everyone else. White one colleague there who claimed to have had nursing training said that she could tell how much someone weighs just by looking at them. And we had this fucking circus. What there's actually there's a person that there's a local fair, fair, amusement park, whatever in Vancouver, and one of the people there says, Give me $1 And if I don't if I guess your weight correctly, I keep it or whatever and if not, then you you get $5 or whatever. And it has this it has some scales. What the fuck type of fucking What? No.
Vinny Welsby 49:31
Oh, this person also says another colleague at the same place told me that I looked like the back end of a bus. That sounds like a lovely colleague. That's a British saying back end of the buses like big I guess I think that's what that means. Yeah, that's what I would always take it as like someone who's an attractive, big I guess. This person who's 40 to 49 from the US As woman neurodivergent lower socio economic status, were in a meeting about an upcoming major event and instead they talked about keto diets for half an hour. I asked, Could we talk about what we came here to discuss? This was brought up in my yearly review as not being a team player. Oh, sorry, I was just trying to do work and not be harmed by your bullshit, Kito. Fucking, unless they all happen to be children who are diabetic, or sorry, have epilepsy? I don't think they were. Okay. So wellness initiatives, wellness initiatives, this person 30 to 39 from the UK woman neurodivergent workplace exercise challenge where others could see how active you were sent me into an orthorexia spiral was exercising like three times a day. So I had the highest exercise score in my team so people could see I was being a good, fatty. Mm hmm. I don't understand. I don't understand this. I don't understand how someone could be sat in HR being like, could be a good challenge. I know, let's make people do at steps challenge or an exercise challenge. It's not gonna fuck with them in any type of way. No, it's just going to be great for their well being, what could go wrong? And they ask themselves What could go wrong? And they say nothing. Maybe the fat people will stop me and so if I can find out? Like, isn't it so obvious that this could be so risky for people's mental health and well being a competition of how much to move, and everyone can see what you're doing? I just added
Vinny Welsby 52:11
monthly weight loss challenges from HR and the person who lost the most weight during the challenge won a prize. These challenges sometimes had us logging our weight into an Excel spreadsheet, which HR kept track of weekly health related emails from HR promoting diet culture. The faculty fuck is that was that? Again, again, that person sent an HR saying love this. Half the price is a new fucking HR team. That's surprised that's what we need. Like I'm not new HR, get rid of that fucking ding dong, HR person who's tracking employees weights in an Excel sheet. Oh, it's just so fun
Vinny Welsby 53:11
I just did this new linguistic thing that apparently is a trend now. This is linguistic person I follow on Instagram. So I'm tell you about these people that are following this. I'm not gonna tell you what the names are. I remember. Sorry about that. Anyway, this is this new linguistic thing that they've noticed is that people are saying no, I just did that. I just did I so fucked up. This someone from drag race drag race UK, they're Irish. And that's the every sentence they talk like that. And it winds me up to no end. And I'm like, stop being annoyed by this because you know, that's just the way they speak. And so the devil on my shoulder is like, but it's so fucking annoying. And then like, you know, the angels like, oh, yeah, it's probably based in some really problematic thing. You judging them for going at the end of every sentence and don't do it. You're a terrible person for being annoyed. And they'll be like, it is so annoying. So there'll be like Oh, my God. Where is this? I'm going down here. Oh, I really like taking drinking some tea. Anyway, I'm gonna stop being rude. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Anyway. But anyway, this this was linguish. This was just like, there's no judgment on it. It was just like, this is a new thing that people are doing. And there you go. Anyway, okay. So a lot of people what they're saying is that a lot of people are mentioning eating disorders and how they're praised for eating disorder behavior. And because they're praised because they were engaging in eating disorder and they lost weight because of an eating disorder. A lot of Eating Disorder Awareness. needs to be had around this stuff. This person says at my current company for years, they had a challenge where if you lost a certain percentage of your body weight, they would pay you a notable notable one time bonus for quote prioritizing your health. Perhaps the one benefit of the company not performing great is they have not they have gotten rid of this quote perk. That's a disabled woman from the USA to 39. This person is from Spain 30 to 39 racialized queer woman neurodivergent and immigrants. My work created a wellness group led by an outside contractor held weekly for a few months. It was intended to be about becoming healthier, but was very much weight centered, including including encouraging weighing ourselves. coworkers asked if I was going, so I did. And in the group, people shared why they were there. And there was a lot of negativity about being fat. For example, one co worker talked about her upcoming wedding, and said she would hate to be a quote, shabby bride. I went to the first session and didn't want to go again, but felt obligated to make excuses about needing to cover my section. Honestly, these wellness, these wellness things are just so badly researched, and it just seems like you know, a sexy thing for companies to do like 10 years ago. I was like where's my scissors I had to cut up because it was gonna play with something on my desk while I was talking. But they're over there because I had to cut up my PR card for my personal permanent residency card because now I'm a citizen. Anyway, what the fuck was I talking about? Let's talk about many, many stories about clothing and uniform and PPE not fitting personal protective equipment. This person who is from Australia 3239, queer, gender, diverse neurodivergent lower socio economic status says PPE not fitting correctly caused physical discomfort and nobody else in the workplace seemed to have an issue with it. So I accepted that it was a quote me problem. And at that point, I believed it was obviously my problem to fix through intentional body size manipulation, which particularly backfired, I ended up even bigger. The PPE not fitting correctly caused significant anxiety about my safety, not having inclusive sizing and uniforms caused me to feel shame, I was less able to do my work efficiently because of the anxiety and shame spirals. I mean, even if if organizations look at this as a cost, cost saving measure, you know, you're going to be people are going to be better at their job if they are comfortable and safe and feel included. And you're not going to get sued when someone gets hurt because the equipment doesn't fit them. You know, it makes financial sense to give a shit about fat people. There's a number of stories about people saying that they were told they had to dress in a certain way, but they're straight sighs coworkers didn't. And it was because they were uncomfortable. They been people their bosses were uncomfortable with seeing their body. This person says my director informed me that I should wear clothing gear to my body like pants, no shorts, shirts, no shorter than three quarter sleeve. Or I should wear cardigans and blazers if I if I absolutely felt I needed to wear shorter sleeves. Our office is business casual, and no one other than myself is asked to dress that way. Our director is a woman herself and is is. And this dress code was for myself only and didn't change until four other coworkers called her on the role in an all staff meeting at which point she denied making the statement saying I must have missed understood her request. That's from a 40 to 49 year old racialized queer woman in the US. This person from France queer woman 30 to 39 I work in a reception in a four star hotel until last year, the uniform we had was relatively easy to substitute with items from brands other than our official supplier, a white shirt and black slacks. Last year, the manager decided to change the uniform to something much harder to substitute baby pink shirt and navy suit with a waistcoat. I had to insist time and time again to make sure that they would choose a supplier with as large a sizing range as possible. And when we eventually received samples to try on the management had only requested Franch sizes I'm guessing the smaller sizes despite Knowing several team members were large sizes, meaning a few of us essentially had to guess at our size for the final order. The answer when we mentioned the sample sizes, it's fine. If things don't fit, when we received the final order, we can always return and exchange them. I'm still waiting for a waistcoat that will fit me. A lot of people have said that they've just given up on trying to get close, because it's good, because it seems like the bosses are just like, oh, this is too hard. And people are advocating for themselves very bravely advocating for themselves. And they're just getting told that they're a nuisance and annoyance and go away. And it's fine, you know, and they're so excluded, then they get in trouble for not meeting the dress code. Another thing that I hadn't thought about it, because the first thing I hadn't thought about was working from home being better for people. Which I mean, obviously, but something I didn't think about was interactions with customers and how we how we should be setting policies for the way that we allow customers to talk to employees, like we wouldn't allow our customers to say, you know, be abusive in certain ways. So why would it be okay for them to say things about that person? So here's some examples. Work in health care. So constantly hearing how terrible it is for your health to be fat. I have had disgruntled patients comment on my fatness as a way to lash out or get revenge that's from a woman us that, you know, once had a client reply, when I said I had to that I'd have to do that after I ran home, say, oh, was if you could run, let me say that again. Once had a client reply, when I said I'd have to do that after I ran home, say, oh, as if you could run. That's a Australian woman 3039 gender diverse and queer. I work in Customer Service. And I once had a customer come up to me and recommend a weight loss drug to tell my family doctor about I Pokerface the entire interaction and asked her if there was anything specific about the job I do that I can help her with. And she said, No, she just really wants me to feel as happy as she as as her when I lose the weight. I went to the back room and asked for someone to cover the desk while I cried in the bathroom. My male supervisor at the time didn't cry too much about what upset me but he wasn't able to support me or even ask the customer to leave because she technically hadn't done anything to warrant to be escorted off the property. That was another reminder that all I have to do is exist in a fat body. And people take that as permission to give unsolicited advice, judgment and feedback.
Vinny Welsby 1:02:59
That's from a 30 to 39 year old in Canada, who is racialized woman neurodivergent. And an immigrant in China is like such a power difference there when you're talking to a customer. Because you could lose your job if you said to that customer, mind your fucking business. So you have to have this, you know, theoretically take this abuse, this shaming, and like this person said, What are we gonna say, you know, can you leave because you're shaming body shaming staff? Well, if you had policies in place to say that we expect, we this is a problem, right? Because we were not even always a problem. If you had like, top down. Listen, we don't accept we don't accept diet talk and body shaming. Anti fatness, that would be really easy for you as if you're a supervisor, you witnessed that from a customer and say, I'm sorry, a customer. But I'm gonna have to ask you to leave because we don't accept comments about our employees bodies. How easy would that be? was probably not easy, but you would have the you would have the corporate backing. You would you would know that you were in the right here. It's kind of like this. It's this example. What can you do? Oh, I was just being helpful. I'm just, you know, now we know we know. This is unsolicited anti fatness and diet culture. And it's fucked up. And this person is is racialized. Woman neurodiverse immigrant. So think about all the other experiences that they're having to go through with those other identities as well, of being, you know, micro aggression out the wazoo, and you know, overt discrimination. So you these other little things which they're not little just piling on and piling on. And it'd be easy as well if we know if we know if that the supervisor was like, oh shit, and he fatness is is anti blackness is white supremacy is ableism and knowing that this person is a racialized person who is neurodivergent? A woman? They can, they can be easier for them to as I say, this is not okay, this is not okay. Versus they're just trying to help. So I think there's education about why this is so powerfully impactfully. Awful, is really important. Okay, so I think I'm gonna leave it there. With with the stories, let me just go back and give you a couple of other kind of stats. In case you're interested. how impactful has anti fat bias been on you throughout your whole career. And I asked people to scale it from a zero to a 10. Zero being not impactful at all, and 10 being incredibly impactful. The average answer was seven, the next one was EIGHT. So seven or eight impactful out of 10. I also broke this down by marginalized group. And so which marginalized groups said that they are more impacted by anti fatness? And what do we think? What do we think? What does your brain say? What marginalized groups are the most impacted by anti fatness? You say your you say you guess in your in your brain? And let's see if we've got it right. Okay, so the average response number wise by all respondents, so average response is 6.039. So that's the average response. And these are all, from all people with marginalized identities. Right? I next time, I'm going to do like, what's your gender, and so have it like, man, woman, gender, queer, blah, blah, blah. What's your so we can then compare, you know, men to gender queer people, or women to gender queer people. Or we can do that with a women and gender queer right now but have space for people to say where they have got privilege in our identities versus just where they are lacking privilege in our identity. So next time, I'll do that, but anyway, generous response from people with with the marginalized identities is 6.039. The people most impacted were racialized people whose average answer was 6.838 to three. The second most is lower social socio economic status. I think that's really interesting about you know, poorness and fatness. And that combination of how people are looking down poor fat and black it feels like is the kind of really derived Id really looked down upon discriminated combination. Then we have disabled, then is queer, neurodivergent, immigrant, minority religion, gender diverse. All respondents and then women, actually, women were all respondents was the lowest and then women would just above just above that. So I wonder if I can do an analysis of if someone has multiple marginalized identities, if they are experiencing more, because we know what the answer is. Yes. Right. So I wanted to get like a number way of relating this information to see how impactful it is. And then we've got the stories as well, to back it up. What other questions do we have? What do you think is the most important way to make a workplace fat positive the number one thing that I said you could only pick one which was which was mean of me, you and I leave it around. We want all of these accessibility support a standard for example, chairs for fat folks inclusive uniform sizes, accessible office space. The second most popular was HR policies that makes size a protected class. And the third most popular was a no diet talk or anti fat bias talk policy. What people have said a couple of people have said is that they worry about training, and what people are saying about the training and how the training If you had training, how it can be perceived, will it create more of a mobile bias. And I think that's that's a really interesting point, because I think it's important how the training is delivered. Because Because Because Because because, unfortunately, a lot of dei trainings are really shit. That shit. They're boring, they are boring as fuck, they're judgmental. They are blaming, not all of them, but many. And when I do when I'm doing, like, when I'm doing my training, I don't want to be I don't want to be, I want to have fun, right? I want to have fun. And I don't be boring reading of a slide. You know, that's not my personality. And people always seem to be really surprised that if they didn't know me, that, you know, they had fun during a training. And, and from what I know, because we know so much about shaming in our community in the fat community. And we know how much shaming is a shit way to motivate people to change, I think going in with the not shaming people for what they've done, and making it about making it about them, and how everyone, not everyone, but pretty much everyone can relate to feeling dissatisfied with their body, and relating it to why they should care, I think is important, right versus stopping mean to fat people. But you know, of course, stopping me to fat people. But let's maybe do education in a way that is bringing people in versus calling people out and getting people engaged and interested and passionate about this subject, and and moved by stories and experiences of people that they love and know and care about, versus having to do this thing because they're forced to and they're really mad about it. I think there's a big difference there is you can approach training in different ways. So yeah, so I don't have answers. I'm thinking about them, I think about should, should training be mandatory.
Vinny Welsby 1:12:34
And there's certainly lots of de dei trainings that are mandatory Sorry, I've been using that that dei without saying what it is in case you didn't know diversity, equity and inclusion, to we have to force people to behave in a certain way. Or before that they before they will I'm thinking about the people who are real, really like committed to bigotry and bias. Is that what is successful and has been successful in in other areas? Are we are we trying to reach those people? Or are we trying to reach people who are somewhere in the middle and closer to to the belief that fat people are human, and just helping them come along and help them be better advocates and be better in the workplace? So know everything about these things? If you want to talk to me about that stuff, let me know. It's interesting to think about, right? I'm always thinking about like how how to how to make people think force people to think like me are such a perfect human being. You just think like me know, like, how to communicate with people so that they are motivated to make a change in regards to being committed to anti fatness and not being committed to anti fairness. Like, what is the best and you know, what I found is that shaming and blaming is just not that's That ain't for me. That's not for me. So, anyway. So I know there's more questions, but you know, I've been going on for like, 50,000 1000 years already. How's my face? Oh, my goodness. I just looked on my face and it is a way less read. Thank you on REL T. O N. R Elta. That's an expensive fucking cream. I think it was like a it's like a really small size and it's like $125 I have to pay for things. When I can I just have people why do I have to pay for health care? Well, I guess I don't live in the US. So I will now I'm Canadian. I don't have to pay for most of my healthcare, I have to pay for my fucking inhaler, which is $125. So it's like $2 or $2 a sack on it. Anyway, but whatever, you know, I'm thinking, you know, all the things I don't like about Canada, but I've just become Canadian and I really like it here. I like being Canada way more than the UK and Ireland. And I'm very pleased that the Canadian government has decided that I am allowed to stay Thank you Canadian government. I appreciate you. All right, if you want to do the survey, if you want to keep it open, you know, if you don't do the surveys in the show notes, if you don't know where the show notes are go to facebook.com forward slash whatever the fucking episode number this is one eight is it one eight, something like that. I'm sorry helpful. If you appreciate the work that I'm doing go to Koh Phi K O F I and the link will be in the show notes. And you can donate some money so that I can buy some face cream for my rosacea Hey or not? Whatever, if you want to amazing if you don't. You did to me get out of my life. No, we don't. You do you do you? But I would really appreciate them. All right. Well, thanks for hanging out with me. By the time this this comes out. Maybe in the next week or two this the final report of this is going to be out there's so much information right? Oh, nearly imagine there's like 300 Plus stories because people are sharing stories in different sections. Anyway, whatever. I'll stop talking. Let you go enjoy your day. Have a wonderful, fierce fatty day. Remember you are worthy. You're always where you always will be. Stay first fatty. Good boy. See you later. Sassy. Bye.