Episode 123 Transcript
Read transcript alongside audio.
Welcome to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm your host, Victoria Welsby and this is episode 123. Today, we're talking about “Fat and Trans Identities Intersecting”.
I'm Victoria Welsby TEDx speaker, Best Selling Author, and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self esteem to being a courageous and confident fierce fatty who loves every inch of this jelly. Society teaches us living in a fat body is bad. But what if we spent less time, money, and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that actually matter? Like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed? Or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century? So how do you stop negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the Fierce Fatty Podcast Let's begin.
Hello, and welcome to this episode my sweaty nipples 60. Man
Unknown Speaker 1:24
How you doing? How's life?
Unknown Speaker 1:28
Good. Good. Hi, welcome to this episode, we're talking about trans shit today.
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And just want to give you a trigger warning at the top of the show here. I'll also give you more when we're up close to the time but we're gonna be talking about gender dysphoria. Also transphobia in the medical system, but fat phobic beliefs and sis het men nonsense. So if that's not feeling good for you today, then skip this episode. But if you're like, Ah, I'm not sure. We'll see when we get there all. I'll tell you when I'm going to read say certain things on
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on QA, all QA. All right, so we're hate 123 and welcome to the episode.
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First thing I just wanted to share with you is that if you are a social worker,
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or in the mental health field, or are interested in that type of stuff,
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or are fat or human, you might be interested to, to know that the International Journal of social work values and ethics, volume 19 has a piece in there, which is called
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weight stigma as a violation of the NASW Code of Ethics a call to action NASW I'm guessing its National Association of Social Workers. Question mark. I'm sure it's something like that. Anyway. So Nancy Ellis Ordway and a Virginia, Ramsay, winter, have written this piece I'm going to give you a little excerpt here is going to be about a minute.
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So this is something that's come out in 2022,
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which says
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weight stigma is a violation of the Social Work Code of Ethics, given that weight loss attempts have been shown to be harmful and ineffective, and that they increase weight stigma the National Association of Social Workers. Yeah, that's that's what I said, Isn't it National Association of Social Workers urgently needs to revise its response to weight loss endorsement. social determinants of health. A robust robust indicator of population wellbeing, are ignored when interventions focus on decreasing the body size of individuals when considering intervention. Individuals full stop when considering interventions, the field of social work has responsibility to consider the evidence of what helps as well as what harms as social workers, we need to examine our own attitudes for the biases that may harm the very people we are directed to help. The Code of Ethics gives us clear direction when applied to the topic of weight stigma.
Unknown Speaker 4:26
Kill so if you are being told by a social worker, or if you're a social worker, and you're being told by your boss or other social workers, that you need to tell people to lose weight, you can say it is a violation of the National Association of Social Workers code of ethics. And then putting them to this document which has lots of different things in it, but
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it's on
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blabbermouth. It's going to the right to the top. Why is this so slow?
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I'll link to this in the show notes. It is on page 6565.
Unknown Speaker 5:08
So we'll link to that in the show notes show notes. As always, first party.com forward slash podcast for the actual actual episode. Always the same fist of it.com forward slash 123. It's not always the same as in it's always the same format is the episode number. Lord Jesus.
Unknown Speaker 5:27
Yeah, so facebook.com forward slash 123. So you can get your little paws on that. But today, I wanted to talk about trans stuff trans stuff, specifically because one, I read this piece that I enjoyed and to
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this trans non binary incredible human begging me, Yeah, boy, is going on a date. I've been thinking about this, you know, you know, when you say your girl is doing that, and I'm like, what feels right, because it's not your girl. Your boy feels more but not really. So what what would be a non gendered version of, say, gender? Yeah, human, your friend, your friend is going on a date tonight is my second date with this one guy.
Unknown Speaker 6:20
And shit is coming up in my brain. And it has been.
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It has been
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since I realized that I was non binary like this stuff has just been percolating. And if anyone else is out there dealing with gender stuff, I just want you to tell you what my brain is saying. No, I'm not the expert on this stuff, because I'm still learning and figuring it out. And Holy fucking shit is so complicated and difficult and blah, blah, blah.
Unknown Speaker 6:49
But even if you're not thinking about, you know, gender stuff, this intersects with fat stuff, too. So it's its own frost on so there is
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a, so there's a group of psychotherapists, and it's called affirmative couch.com. And they write pieces. There's a different group of different therapists there. One of them is called M Addison Tucker, they them pronouns. And they wrote a piece at the intersection of fat and trans. And so, the first half of it is talking about like, what is fatness and blah, blah, blah.
Unknown Speaker 7:31
And then next, we go into the intersection of fat and trans. And I wanted to read out this.
Unknown Speaker 7:41
Read out some of this stuff, just an FYI about Addison Tucker's identity. Addison says I'm a fat, queer, able bodied, neurotypical, white and cisgender femme person. They say they're cisgender in this piece, but then when I went on to their bio, it says that now that they're a
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non binary femme, so that would then now currently make them not cisgender. Unless I don't know which one is the more up to date, I'm going to presume them being non binary is the more up to date thing.
Unknown Speaker 8:18
So So So sir,
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again, I'm going to link to this in the show notes. And what Addison is saying is that they, their clients, they have a lot of
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gender diverse clients, and that they help them with immunotherapy stuff. And so this is what they've seen as a they're a small fat person. They're white, non binary neurodivergent able bodied, what they have seen, with their years of specializing in
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gender diverse people, and that intersection of fat and trans now, I only have my very short lived experience of non binary pneus. And, you know, coming you know, it was maybe a year old of me realizing that I'm non binary maybe a little bit longer because I was, you know, talking about it with my therapist for a long time. And
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and so, I've only got my experience to go on in regards to just a year and obviously the privileges that I hold as someone who
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when people perceive me they just perceive a woman right. And so
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my experience of trans non binary nurse is is very different from other people in regards to I can walk down the street and not have to fear for
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My life as a non binary person potentially as someone considering the a woman and you know violence against women
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but that's that's like the privilege that I hold and on dating sites. Men just view me sis hat man just view me as a woman, even though even though in my bio, which they don't read
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they I say I'm not and then I get you know the first message. Oh my god, you were such a beautiful woman. You're my dream lady. Oh, you're such a womanly figure and Lola Loyle this fucking stuff. And then I'm like, Oh, by the way, thank you, by the way, I'm not a woman. And then like,
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what? Some people are like, oh, yeah, that's whatever, that's fine. And other people. One guy the other day was like, what's that? And I said, Google it and then I never heard from it again.
Unknown Speaker 10:52
Good, whatever. Who knows why, but you know, I'm just like, I'm done educating these these ding dongs?
Unknown Speaker 10:58
Yes, so let me just read this. This is not too long. But here I'm gonna go in if this doesn't feel good, and then we reading examples of transphobia intersecting with fatphobia and then I'm gonna then give you another trigger warning when I read a specific article about something that happened I'm going to tell you what that is when I get there. So if this is not feeling good, skip ahead. 20 minutes
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now I'll see you on the other side for some hilarious
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sarcasm. Is that sarcasm me saying hilarious is some of these hilarious and also very sad experiences that I've had with with men and people's people's theories about that. So I skip ahead, maybe 20 minutes and you'll you'll hear that if not, let's go into this. Okay, so this is from the post. And so I'm skipping, skipping ahead about the fat stuff because we've we talked about the fat stuff all the time. So we're gonna pick up here here where it says, at the intersection of fat and trans, when we talk about the above concepts in relate relation to fatness they also hold true for other identities and so they're talking about
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fat phobia and weight stigma.
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They also hold true for other identities that experience oppression eg race, gender, ability, sexuality, T, G, and B. So that's trans gender non binary folks. I always thought it was transgender non binary, folks, but apparently, I'm gonna Google where because I T G and biodiesel is transgender. non binary, but apparently trans and gender non binary hang on bear with me color trans I'm gonna have to Google it
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and have to put in have to type in words. Yeah, this is in this is transgender, slash non binary. Okay, so whatever, we're just gonna, we're just gonna say it could be either or, but it's the same.
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What is it pulling hairs picking hairs? Whatever. pulling teeth? No, that's whatever splitting hairs there we go splitting hairs splitting hairs.
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On that, so anyway, T G Nb is transgender non binary true. So let us continue. TGFB folks experienced transphobia sis sexism, sis heteronormative expectation expectations.
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We'll be talking about that in a second. And pressures to fit into white binary understandings of gender. IE, what is suppose what it supposedly supposedly means to be a man or a woman. Because T, G and B people are often valued based on how well their bodies quote, fit into these expectations. It follows that they would also be held to standards of body size, shape and weight, adding weight stigma to the other pressures that a T, G and B person experiences along with their own struggles with their body is like a shaken soda bottle of oppression waiting to explode. Here are several ways that a TG MB person might experience the cumulative and harmful effects of size ism, and fatphobia in the context of their trans SNESs.
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So just a quick terminology thing, in case you're like, What the fuck is even going on here. Trans is someone who doesn't identify with the gender that was assigned to them at birth. Cisgender is someone who does identify with the with the identity. They were assigned at birth.
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Someone who is non binary doesn't necessarily have to identify as trans.
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Everyone identifies a different things, but that's kind of like a quick and dirty thing. You know, I would identify as trans non binary
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so that people don't just think I'm a woman. Like I want them to know. This is like, I don't know
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Hey, I'm not messing about
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a guy.
Unknown Speaker 15:04
Okay, so a trans masculine person eats. Okay, so we're gonna go into example. So. So if this doesn't feel good, skip ahead
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10 minutes, a trans masculine person eats as little as possible to shrink his body and appear more androgynous by reducing the width of his hips and size of his chest.
Unknown Speaker 15:29
Yes, so I was talking to a trans masculine person about then putting on weight and it causing a lot of feelings coming up. And
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you know, why? What is going on there? And it's kind of like with a, with a cisgender person, then we can more easily identify if, if the source of it is fat phobia. Whereas with a
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TG, NB person,
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it's harder because is it dysphoria? Exactly. Like this example example. If you have more fat on your body, is it the fact that you appear more, quote, feminine?
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Is it also fat phobia? Or is it only fat phobia? And literally, like,
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everyone, and is it also
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getting sexism and
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all sorts of different things going on, right?
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And so it's a lot more complicated. So to kind of be like, Okay, well, I
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would, as a trans person,
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trying to be thin,
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temporarily, because obviously, we can't be thin long term. Unless you're thin already.
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Code trying to lose weight is what I'm trying to say could trying to lose weight help with my feelings of gender dysphoria knowing that, and so I work on that temporarily, as I welcome those feelings of gender dysphoria, and see if I can come up with ways to to to cope or whatever or, you know, some other tactics or whatever, and, and then, maybe, when I put weight back on, because that's what's probably going to happen, then I'm maybe in a better place, maybe, or maybe not to deal with the stuff. And so it's complicated, right? So saying,
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don't lose weight. Even though we know it's a temporary thing might not be helpful for people if the feeling of dysphoria is so overwhelming, and it can be for a lot of people. Okay, so moving on, a non binary person hesitates to go to the gynecologist for worsening pelvic pain, because when they initially brought it up, the doctor said that the pain was weight related. You are a trans feminine person fears going out on a date because she can't blend enough with her large belly.
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An agender person has to search endlessly for affordable clothing that both fits their large body and also feels congruent with their gender. Here's something that I was thinking about the other day is, when I was on that documentary, we went to a a shopping center, a mall for North American people.
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And the crew wanted us to buy some clothes for a photoshoot. And we've all said, Are there any plus size stores? Because we all know that that even though we're in a big city, there's probably not gonna be a single place there that has clothes to fit us. And they were like, oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we checked this was one store and they carry plus. And we got there and that one store that carries plus, if you're curious, it was new look.
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They were like, oh, yeah, yeah, we carry plus online. And so you know, there was a scene that was cut from the episode where all stood outside being like, we've I can told you, we told you there is no way for any of us even,
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you know, the smaller medium fat people to go apart from the guys who went downstairs to this big apartment store, department store, John Lewis, which is what it's called. And two of them were able to find something that that fit two of them, or more, you know, three that the men who were bigger than the women, most women
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were able to find stuff.
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And but then it would be masculine clothes, right? And so,
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a
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trans you know, an agender person has to search endless.
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sleeve for affordable clothing that both fits their large body and also feels congruent with their gender. If they don't just want to wear men's clothes, quote, men's got, you know, masculine clothes, then that's going to be an issue. Like for me, I like wearing. I really like Adidas, or Adidas, as you'd say in North America.
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Like Adidas, I managed to find myself in Adidas tracksuit. It's a men's one
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that fits, I couldn't fit into the women's ones.
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But for me, that was okay for me because I didn't care because I would rather be if it was the other way around. If I was non binary, and I was assigned male at birth, I think that would be triggering for having to buy a man's size if I identified more as a woman do you see what I'm saying?
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But because I'm I'm more leaning towards
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neutrality.
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And masculinity is also feels fine for me. It wasn't an issue. But if I wanted to find more Addy das stuff, and I was really didn't want any masculine stuff. I'd be SOL, right? Because there isn't, you know, unless you're a medium fat person you knew by like, Ivy Park by Beyonce, which goes up to and again, you'd have to be buying the gender neutral stuff, which goes to a 5x and the women's range goes to a 3x.
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So yeah.
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Again, it's it's it's difficult. It's difficult. Anyone knows anyone who works at Ivy Park and they want to send me clothes?
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Can you please do that? I would literally shit out shit in a box with excitement. Because I love it so much, but it's just too expensive for me to spend.
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I love it so much.
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But then I'm thinking will it fit though? I don't know. Anyway, okay, let's move on. Now moving on. Moving on. A gender queer person wants to fly without drawing attention to themselves, but they face ridicule when going through the security body scanners. And then I looked at with disgust while walking down the airplane aisle due to their body size. You know those scanners?
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Oh, it's so invasive. It's so invasive. A trans woman's doctor does not refer her to get treatment for her anorexia because he reasons that restriction might help her lose weight.
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Yeah, and I wonder I wonder being a trans woman
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versus being a trans man.
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A trans woman the doctor might be like, well,
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they want to be feminine. Therefore they need to be thinner to be feminine.
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Maybe just haven't I guess.
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Either way, this happens to all genders.
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How many fat people have gone to the doctors and they've been like I've lost weight because I have an eating disorder. The doctors congratulations fat at your final finally worthy because you lost some weight. Keep going. Oh, but I'm dying doesn't matter.
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Yeah, fun. Okay, a trans adolescent is extremely uncomfortable in their body due to the compounded effects of going through puberty. Puberty as a fat person. Yes.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, puberty is a puberty as a fat person.
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Yeah.
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I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking, I'm just thinking about how I fell as a fat as a fat person. Totally. D.
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D, sexualized. Like, one of the guys. I think that as well had to a little bit to do with my personality too. Because I was like the jokester, you know, because I was like, Well, no guy is ever going to fancy me. So I might as well be the class clown, you know.
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And so it felt like, it didn't matter that I was going through puberty, because it wouldn't have an effect on who would find me attractive.
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But then imagine if, if you Yeah, if you're going through puberty, if you're thinking about gender stuff, exactly hear uncomfortable in their body due to the compounded effects of going through puberty as a fat person? Yeah, you're okay. A pregnant trans man gets mistaken for being fat and doesn't get the
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Emergency emergency medical care he needs. Note, an article was recently published about this exact situation. Okay, so here I'm going to talk about
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I'm going to read an article from USA Today about this experience of a trans man getting mistaken for fat. So if you don't want to hear about trans man, pregnancy and him losing that pregnancy, skip ahead four minutes. Okay. So the story that
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we're talking about here,
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come on my tab. Okay, so, Nurse mistakes pregnant transplant transgender man as fat I'm going to change to words, then man births are stillborn baby. When the man arrived at the hospital with severe abdominal pains and nurse didn't consider it an emergency, noticing that he was fat, and had stopped taking blood pressure medicines. In reality he was pregnant, a transgender man in labor that was about to end in a stillbirth. The tragic case described in Wednesday's New England, New England Journal of Medicine points to two larger medical issues about assigning labels or making assumptions in a society increasingly confronted, confronting gender variations in sports, entertainment and government. In medicine, there is a similar danger of missing diseases such as sickle cell and cystic fibrosis, the larger effect specific racial groups the author's right, the point is not what happened to this particular individual. But this is an example of what happens to transgender people interacting with the healthcare system, said the lead author Dr. Daphne strew, Musa of the University of Muskegon, Michigan, Ann Arbor, he was rightly classified as a man in the medical records and appears masculine, strong, strict strict Stroom sir said but the classic classification threw us off from considering his actual
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medical needs.
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Stream sir would not say where or when the case occurred and the patient was not identified.
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That's a heartbreaking example of that anti trans and isn't anti fatness intersecting, leading to the death of the baby. Continuing, a trans person arrived for their consultation appointment for gender affirming surgery. But the armchairs in the waiting room are too small for them to fit the exam room table cannot hold their weight, and they soon find out that the surgeon has a maximum BMI requirements.
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So we see Yeah, we see we see that a lot in regards to examples of
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anti fatness and anti trans SNESs of ridiculous barriers, for no reason, no reason whatsoever.
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A trans college student gets the courage to go to the gym and build muscle for his upcoming top surgery, but then his fat shamed by other students at the fitness center. So that's the end of the the examples but and so, the author goes on to talk about how the intersections of transit and fatness
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can affect TGN V people. So here are some ways that TGN PV Pio put people are impacted by these pressures compared to cisgender people
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increased body dissatisfaction and frequent body checking risk of dishsoap dissociation from or hatred of certain parts of their bodies increased in increase in disordered eating or weight and shape control behaviors including binge eating, fasting,
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vomiting and laxative use weight loss to suppress secondary sex characteristics and or for trans feminine people to achieve the thin ideal for trans masculine people to slow or stop the menstrual cycle for TGFB people with a high BMI even greater rates of body dissatisfaction and disordered eating for trans feminine people increased experiences of sexual objective objectification
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greater risk of mental health struggles due to the stigma of being trans and or fat. Example desire for weight change increases reported history of suicide attempts and self injury.
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Desire example desire for weight changes increases the reported history of suicide attempts and self industry injury, risk of negative social consequences stigma and safety concerns when physical features are not in line with societal expectations for their gender.
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And then for all of those stats, they've linked the sources there.
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Yes,
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And then they go on to say, here are some ways I believe we can work to support our fat TGN be friends and fellow humans. Don't comment on someone's body practice empathy, practice self compassion. Don't assume that a T G and B person wants their body to be in line with a binary constructions of femininity and masculinity.
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Yes, dig into fat positive movements. I'm summarizing, by the way they go, they go deeper on these things. Be critical of the way that mass media portrays TGN be people this is important.
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Be critical of the way that mass media portrays TGFB people,
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fat people and TGFB fat people then.
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Yeah, so if you look at a lot of pages, four
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pages about non binary people or about trans people, notice how very often all of the people that they portray are thin, they conform to
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ideas of what a masculine or feminine person or what a man or a woman looks like. And so I'm thinking of, there's a page called they that I like, I'm just going into it now to see if they've made any changes, but they
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often
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portray very kind of normative trans bodies.
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I know it's called them, it's them. It's not they there is a there is a band. Then there we go.
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them. Okay. Yes, so thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, slightly, chubby, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. These people look cool. They're awesome, by the way, but there's a lot of like fineness then then then then thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. Yep. So and really like a lot of a lot of Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, why wait, we'll let you know. Yeah, so So that's fun.
Unknown Speaker 32:16
Okay, check that check your privilege of caring the world sick, sick of mental, medical or mental health providers who are fat positive, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so I think that's really important to talk about. And yeah, it's been on my mind because because like I mentioned I've gone on a date tonight. And it's a struggle in my mind thinking about sis hat men's perception of my fatness and his potential the guy I'm gonna deal with tonight his potential fat phobic thoughts and
Unknown Speaker 32:53
and then my own gender dysphoria and my own gender dysphoria bringing up I don't know if they're my fat phobic beliefs their beliefs that I know that some sis hat men will have and some other you know fat phobic people will have
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and
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and also not trusting says hit men. You know when says that men say? Oh, yeah, you know, because I always say always say so. what's your what's your opinion? On fatness? You know, how do you feel about dating a fat person?
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I asked that of someone a couple of days ago. And they they blocked me.
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And I was like, oh, that's your answer. They ain't interested. But anyway, even when I do say like what's your and they always
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they
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always come back with
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Oh, yeah, it's fine. You know, whatever. And
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and you know that they haven't got any they haven't had any critical thought behind that. Because apart from this is this hitman.
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Trans men,
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by men, queer men that I talked to. They've got something else to say which is
Unknown Speaker 34:21
that they're educated on the topic that they say yeah. Oh my god, fat phobia is fucked up. And I'm so sorry that that's something that you've had to deal with. Or, or Yeah, actually, you know, they've got something to say versus Oh, yeah, no, I think everyone is equal or something, you know, which kind of says that they haven't really thought about it, but they're open to it. But then my brain is like, am I the first fat person you've ever gone on a date with? Are you just experimenting with me? To see if you can stomach having sex with a fat person? You know, they're not clear
Unknown Speaker 35:00
really fat positive, but they're not clearly fat phobic either, you know?
Unknown Speaker 35:09
Yeah, and, and I've seen this way, you know, I always check, I always say hey, what do you think of fatness? And, and, and then? And then they say, Oh yeah, no, I like it's great blah blah, blah. And then I'll be like, you know, say this is I'm just thinking about this one guy. Oh yeah, I love it. Great. And so I'm like, oh, okay, good, good, good. And then, like a few weeks later, I say, also, is it normally only fat people that you day? And he's like, Oh, actually, I've never dated a fat person. And I'm like, oh, so well. Is that true that you love that? Doesn't you just saying that?
Unknown Speaker 35:46
I'm gonna just take your word that in that it is true.
Unknown Speaker 35:50
But no, it's just, it's
Unknown Speaker 35:56
yeah, you have to take people's word for what they say. And and I mean, but there's always this hesitation, right? As a fat person. What are their motives? Are they just, they're just looking for easy sex? What is going on? Are they? Are they actually very comfortable and happy and excited to date a fat person? Or are they like, oh, fuck it. I've never dated a fat he was might as well tried their hair talking to me. So what the heck are they?
Unknown Speaker 36:23
You know, seriously unhappy about having to talk to a fatty but they're desperate to get the Nope, they're not sucked. And so they'll just do it anyway, you know, these are the questions that are going through my mind and I'm sure a lot of other fact people's minds. Yeah. And so with that, that intersection of of gender dysphoria that I'm thinking about? I think to myself, Okay, well, I should dress feminine. So because he's gonna think this is this is, by the way, this guy has never said anything like, that makes me leet leads me to think that he is transphobic he's had relationships. I've not actually asked if he has relationships with
Unknown Speaker 37:07
fat people, but from my I kind of got the impression that you had.
Unknown Speaker 37:12
But he his last relationship with was with with was with a trans woman. And so
Unknown Speaker 37:19
I get that kind of more, I feel more safe with him. Anyway, so I think to myself, Okay, what if he thinks, oh, well, Vinnie is fat, but at least they ain't masculine. At least, Vinny isn't coming up here looking like a masculine non binary person. So that's what I'm thinking.
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Him any any sis man is thinking
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that, at least that they could do is make up for their fatness by being feminine, because if they are fat, and non binary, masculine or androgynous, then that's too much for me to handle. As if those things are negative. They're not by the way. They're just ways of humans to be to be.
Unknown Speaker 38:12
And then my other side of my brain is like, fuck that. Dress for yourself, dress how you want to if that happens to be feminine, then do that. And if it's not, don't do it. And so I'm like, Yeah, fuck that. Fuck that. And I feel empowered. And I think about this like cool pair of combat boots I've got, I got on sale from eliquid. And then the my leather jacket and how badass it looks together. And then like with a like, a rolled up gene, a little cuff on the bottom, and, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, that looks badass. And then another thought comes up of,
Unknown Speaker 38:49
but then he is going to be worried about your version of non binary. Perhaps he only wants to go on a date with you.
Unknown Speaker 38:59
Because you've appeared so far to be feminine to him.
Unknown Speaker 39:05
And if you show up on a day to night, this is a second date.
Unknown Speaker 39:09
Looking more androgynous that he's gonna be like, No.
Unknown Speaker 39:15
And then I'm like, Okay, well, I'm gonna god yeah, I need to keep the feminine up. Because if I then you know, all of a sudden change and switch to something more androgynous he's gonna be like, What the fuck? This isn't what I signed up for. Even though it's only like one day and pictures on my dating profile. So then I'm like, Okay, well
Unknown Speaker 39:38
you know, next time I'm online shopping, I'm gonna buy a frilly dress. Even though it makes me feel blue when I see it.
Unknown Speaker 39:46
When I see it when I see myself wearing it,
Unknown Speaker 39:50
and then I'm like, fuck. No, I'm not doing that. No, no, I'm no, I'm gonna do what makes me feel good.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
Then I think about how I don't wear many things that show my cleavage, and that men like cleavage on the whole, and then
Unknown Speaker 40:11
well, I think what if I'm gonna be fat and non binary? I may as well flop my fat hits.
Unknown Speaker 40:20
So I think about
Unknown Speaker 40:23
what do I own that is low cut?
Unknown Speaker 40:26
Not really anything
Unknown Speaker 40:29
unless I unbutton a shirt.
Unknown Speaker 40:32
So maybe I should buy something that shows off my tips to confuse men into thinking that I am a woman and a sexy woman. And I'm not like one of these bad fatties, who is
Unknown Speaker 40:45
you know, androgynous.
Unknown Speaker 40:48
And then I'm like, No, fuck that. What the fuck Be yourself. If you want to show off your TED show, if he texts if you don't tone.
Unknown Speaker 41:00
And so then I'll see your super cool non binary person on Instagram. I'm like, Yes, that's who I am.
Unknown Speaker 41:07
And I feel buoyed again and resolute again to not
Unknown Speaker 41:11
give in to these transphobic fat phobic thoughts.
Unknown Speaker 41:20
So it's a it's a merry go round in my head due to dysphoria and misogyny and fat phobia. And it's frustrating and I'm not used to feeling like this. And
Unknown Speaker 41:32
I think you know, the SIS hat male gaze is really fucking with me. I feel like if I was on a desert island, and I didn't have to deal with sis hat male gaze.
Unknown Speaker 41:42
I wouldn't have I wouldn't be having these feelings at all. I mean, if we all lived in a desert island, we probably wouldn't be having fat phobic feelings, probably. You know, because it's society that makes it so difficult, right?
Unknown Speaker 41:59
And before I realized that I was non binary, I didn't give a fuck about what men thought about my body in regards to fatness. Obviously, I did previously previously previously, but you know, in the most recent history,
Unknown Speaker 42:12
and I still don't as a standalone issue, if a guy says, I'm not attracted to you, because you're fat. I'm like, well, your fucking eyeballs are wrong, because I'm gorgeous. You know, your loss.
Unknown Speaker 42:25
But then when you combine it with
Unknown Speaker 42:30
how I'm working to working out to be my third authentic non binary self, then all sorts of chips come comes up. And that same defiant, confident levels of I don't care what they think, because if they don't like me, then it's a them problem. And I'm still in these kind of, like, Baby Giraffe legs of being like, oh, but maybe I should, maybe I should wear a nice dress and, and then a little bit, and maybe I should you know, when it's kind of it feels like before when it was kind of like, well, maybe I should wear something black. And something, maybe I should wear shape wear. And maybe I should wear high heels to make myself look as feminine and as thin as possible. And the performance or femininity that I would I would put on in order to quote make up for the art for my fatness
Unknown Speaker 43:31
was,
Unknown Speaker 43:34
was the thing that I dealt with. And then I obviously learned a lot of that stuff. And in that unlearning was examining my performance or femininity, not the stuff which just naturally feels good because, you know, there's a lot of stuff that would be like that I like doing this classes feminine, like wearing lipstick, or
Unknown Speaker 43:57
earrings or whatever. And that's for me, because I genuinely enjoy it. I don't think about how men are being like, Oh my God, look at their earrings. I really want to fuck them because of their earrings. Like,
Unknown Speaker 44:10
I don't think like that. Whereas before it would be
Unknown Speaker 44:15
certain things doing certain things to to attract men, which didn't necessarily feel authentic to me or doing it to
Unknown Speaker 44:28
make up for my perceived floor or fatness. And so I guess what it is, is it's my own transphobia. Right. It's my own
Unknown Speaker 44:40
belief that that being non binary is
Unknown Speaker 44:45
less worthy, less desirable, less attractive than being a sis woman and that my expression of my gender has to align with that.
Unknown Speaker 45:00
very rigid ideas of femininity or being a good non binary person as in non binary in name only not saying that that was what a good one, you know, good as in good or bad, fatty these are social constructs and, and, and tropes, right? That a guy, me thinking, me thinking about their biases, and trying to minimize myself so that I don't trigger their biases. And when I think about it in regards to just fatness, I'm like we they're fucking lucky that my body might trigger biases, because then I'm giving them a free fucking education. If they are having, feeling a certain way about my body and its fatness, and, and being like, Oh, I don't like this, then, you know, you're welcome. No, you're welcome. And see you later. Because if you don't do the work to sort that shit out, then it's got nothing to do with me because I'm feeling fucking good in my body as a fat person. And so I'm not there yet, with my non binary identity, which is just gets on my fucking tits. Because I don't like it. I don't like this feeling of being unsure of second guessing myself, because I haven't felt like that in so long. And it's not a good feeling, right? But also doing this stuff like talking about it and, and pointing it out. And, you know, talking about this dialogue that my brain is having, of, of, you know, the worst, darkest thoughts of buy a frilly dress and put on a wig. I was literally, I was literally pulling out this wig that I have this pink wig that I have and being like, oh, would they be more attracted to me if I wore this and I'm just like, for fucks sake.
Unknown Speaker 46:58
It was like there's two different videos on my shoulder the the transphobic unsure
Unknown Speaker 47:05
people pleasing version of Vinnie on one shoulder and then like the badass, you know, fat positive,
Unknown Speaker 47:13
cool, confident person on the other side being like, What the fuck are you thinking? Like, get out of here. And I don't think
Unknown Speaker 47:21
you know, maybe that other side, they kind of like what the fuck is maybe not as helpful, maybe being compassionate for myself, versus being angry and annoyed with myself that I'm having risen to this higher level of not thinking about this shit. When I have been
Unknown Speaker 47:39
out as non binary for like 12 minutes. I mean, come on. And if I think about like when someone comes to fat, positive positivity, and they feel frustrated that they're not there certain place within and I'm like,
Unknown Speaker 47:55
How long have you been doing this? And how many years have you
Unknown Speaker 48:00
been in this fat phobic world that tells you that you're a piece of shit and you believe it? Oh, you've been in that world for 40 years. And now you think after 14 minutes, you're gonna be you know, what's the phrase taking names and flipping tables? I mean, yeah, there will be moments when you are you flipping tables and being like, fuck you. I'm fat and fabulous. But there's gonna be lots of times where you're still struggling with oh, what are people thinking? And,
Unknown Speaker 48:27
and I'm there with, with me being non binary, right?
Unknown Speaker 48:33
of older people thinking. And when I think about it in the fat stuff, I'm just like, well, who fucking cares what they're thinking what they're thinking is really none of your business and you can't control what they're thinking. So do you want to try and minimize yourself to, to make sure that that person is comfortable seeing you and your presence doesn't trigger any biases in their brain? Or, and that's not great for you because you haven't to like, be a fake version of yourself. Oh, do you just want to live what how you want and then fuck what other people think. I like the second option. I just gave myself a pep talk. have gone to that date many and just crush it. Yeah. Okay, so yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 49:18
So I want to talk about
Unknown Speaker 49:21
there's this phenomenon, this phenomenon mono mono, that I have noticed and notice that other people have noticed this phenomenon, too, with messaging people online. And it really is really fucking annoying. And I thought okay, so Okay, so the phenomenon is says Hitman not
Unknown Speaker 49:46
asking questions in a conversation. Okay, so this is this is this is what I mean. This isn't this is a made up example. Hey, this is me. Hey, how you doing? Nice teeth.
Unknown Speaker 50:00
I probably wouldn't say that but
Unknown Speaker 50:04
a sexy looking teeth. Hey, thanks.
Unknown Speaker 50:09
How are you? I'm great. I just made some chili con carne and I'm about to take my dog to the dog park. Cool.
Unknown Speaker 50:20
Yeah, so. So tell me more about yourself. are you originally from Vancouver? What do you do for work? Yeah, I'm from
Unknown Speaker 50:31
Alberta and I
Unknown Speaker 50:36
made a professional cheesy to
Unknown Speaker 50:39
oh my god cool professional cheesy to Oh my God, that sounds amazing. So
Unknown Speaker 50:45
what's your favorite type of cheese? Brie.
Unknown Speaker 50:49
You know, it's like, and it's like, like, it's like that. And it's like,
Unknown Speaker 50:54
even when they've messaged you first.
Unknown Speaker 50:58
And
Unknown Speaker 51:02
it just makes no sense.
Unknown Speaker 51:04
It's nice Sans.
Unknown Speaker 51:07
And so in that interaction to me, I'd be like, Well, clearly, they're not interested. They're just responding to be polite. But, you know, because that so that wasn't a good example. But these are people who are keep messaging, right? They reach out first. They keep messaging, but they never ask you a question, John. I'm literally going to read out some chats,
Unknown Speaker 51:30
some chats and chats and chats. Okay, so this guy messaged me, and we're having a back and forth.
Unknown Speaker 51:37
And so I'd have it. And so I've been calling them out. And so let me read this, me calling him out. Chat. So I message this guy. And I said, Okay, so where are you from, originally? From about Alberta, originally. And so in Vancouver, there's, it's very rare to meet someone who's actually from Vancouver, like, say, if you meet 100 guys online, maybe
Unknown Speaker 52:00
10 of them would be actually from Vancouver. And so, you know, a common question is like, Where you from originally? Because, you know, so? And I'd be like, I'd be like, Oh, are you from Vancouver? Originally? I'm not. I'm from UK, Ireland. And so instead of him saying, oh, UK, Ireland, cool. I've want to go to visit London or whatever. He just says, I'm from Alberta originally. And so no questions for me. So I just respond. Cool. Because I'm at this point, I'm like,
Unknown Speaker 52:33
Are you going to ever ask me a question about me? And he responds, I guess LOL, because I didn't think it was cool. I was just like, oh, for fuck sake.
Unknown Speaker 52:42
And so then I said, said to this guy. So maybe you can answer me this. I've been trying to work something out. Why is it that men often during messaging on apps don't ask questions about the person they're talking to. This guy responds, well, as for myself, I suck at Tech messaging, slash texting, hahahahaha shoulder shrug. We'd rather chat face to face. So then I respond. Okay, gotcha. But then if you don't ask questions, it makes the conversation end so you'll never get to meet face to face. And then he said, Guess we just got a meet in person then. laughing, winking. And then I respond. You know what, whenever I have met people who don't ask questions over message is the same thing in person. Just me asking all the questions and then them not returning the curiosity. He didn't respond to that message.
Unknown Speaker 53:41
US we rely on for floods like.
Unknown Speaker 53:45
Okay, so here's another guy on the exam day, different app.
Unknown Speaker 53:50
Same thing.
Unknown Speaker 53:52
So maybe you can answer me this. I've been trying to work out blah, blah, blah. Why don't Why don't men ask questions? He says, Well, I guess they figure it out gradually by observing the actions rather than speak. And he's got kind of chin scratching, chin scratching emoji. And then I said, but then it makes the conversation very one sided. One person asking all the questions, and the other just answering and not reciprocating.
Unknown Speaker 54:20
And he says, nope. Sometimes the questions you ask rise a question in my mind as well. Lol. Don't know why, why that's funny. But
Unknown Speaker 54:31
and then I say, but it hasn't though. Right? Only question you asked was when I asked you to ask a question. Because previously in the chat, I said, is do you want to know anything about me? And he said, Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 54:45
I'd said, we'll ask me a question then. And then he said, You asked me something, something, whatever. And then he went back into not asking questions and so so I say you know, the only time you've
Unknown Speaker 55:00
asked me a question is when I told you to ask me a question. And then he says, I'll ask questions
Unknown Speaker 55:06
as all ask questions as well, lol, gradually, lol. And then I say, but then it makes the other person think that you don't care slash aren't interested. And therefore the conversation will just end. And you'll never know that it was just that you didn't ask questions.
Unknown Speaker 55:24
And he says, fair enough exclamation point. thumbs up emoji. So tell me about your hobbies. And so
Unknown Speaker 55:33
tell me about your hobbies. For me, that was like, fine. For fuck sake, I'll ask you a fucking question. Now while you're Shut up. That's how I write it. And so I told him a really cool thing. I was like, oh, so I, I'm actually starting the roller skating club in a couple of weeks. And I also like singing, and I go to a singing class, once a week, and also really into watching cheesy reality shows on Netflix. Lots of content there, right? And so it's not like I'm My hobbies are like, Oh, my hobbies are breathing, you know, and nothing for him to say in return. And he was just like, oh, and then because then I said,
Unknown Speaker 56:20
what about you? And he was just like, oh, I watch Netflix or whatever. And then I was like, oh, anything that you really enjoy, and at the moment, and then he just kept just going on about him just talking, talking, talking about him, what he likes. He sent four message messages. I didn't respond, all talking about himself, and then finally sent a question, which was, what are you doing, which I didn't respond to?
Unknown Speaker 56:45
So I took this to I took this to the Instagrams and I said, Do you notice this that sis hat men suck at conversations on the apps on the dating apps? Never asking question, and you are having to do all the legwork. And so I did a poll and the answers were oh my god, yes. Sometimes not at all. And 78% of people said, Oh, my God, yes. 18 said sometimes and 3% said Not at all.
Unknown Speaker 57:16
By the way I looked at who said Not at all.
Unknown Speaker 57:20
To have the people look like they're women.
Unknown Speaker 57:25
But of course, I could be talking to this man. But I just thought that was funny. Because mostly, almost everyone that follows me is is is not is not a sis hitman, man. Okay, and so then I put a question box saying, Why do you think that sis men often won't? Don't ask questions on the dating apps? And this is what people said. And I wanted to read out that what they said, because I think it's really interesting.
Unknown Speaker 57:51
Honestly, I think that it's they they just don't care enough to put in the effort. They literally just expect to word vomit on them like they do. We they literally just expect you to word vomit on them like they do. They don't actually want to get to know you. They're just buying time to meet face to face. Because they're awful. They're used to it being all about them. And if they find you attractive, that's enough. That's at first. They don't want to actually put in any effort, they will meet up for sex, not conversation. Because they're not interested in dating only sex in my experience. It's a little hint. They give to show you that they that you'll have to do all the legwork in the relationship to
Unknown Speaker 58:38
ya, selfishness. They aren't actually interested in getting to know the person they just want an ego boost their self centered. They think showing interest makes them vulnerable. And toxic masculinity says no to that. They only ask when they're already invested emotionally, not to find out if you're compatible. I found it just to be social laziness on their part.
Unknown Speaker 59:02
Someone says sis women can be just as bad.
Unknown Speaker 59:05
Not really interested in meeting people, not good textures expect others to do the work. I don't know. But I've decided I'm not going to carry the Convo by myself.
Unknown Speaker 59:15
Don't care what your answers would be self absorbed. The good ones ask questions too. Yes, lack of social skills and not having to stay attuned to the other person's reality to survive all the time. A lot of marginalized folks are very good at attuning to others as a survival skill.
Unknown Speaker 59:33
I don't know but this is my number one complaint with the apps. I don't know but I hope you find out so annoying. Because the emotional labor is always forced on the SIS female. And again, people are mentioning sis female, but obviously I am a non trans non binary so I think it's sis hat men, whoever they're dating. They just expect you know the labor to be on them.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:00
because they think the universe revolves around them.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:04
That's usually how I screen them out the ones who don't talk. Trying to play it cool.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:11
They're just self centered and nobody that nobody told them it wasn't cool.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:15
No one taught them how to connect with or care for someone but that but that others would do it for them.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:24
Hashtag mana trash overall. And so all the apps because sis men are completely self centered and essentially babies
Unknown Speaker 1:00:37
Yeah, I've been watching Off. I've been watching 90 Day fiance
Unknown Speaker 1:00:43
franchise or MMA girl.
Unknown Speaker 1:00:47
A lot of men on that show, especially the ones who are American adjust, set, they are babies, they're just like, oh, I can't wash a dish. I'm getting my wife over to come over here to wash my dishes and do my laundry and, and I just feel so it's so I'm so embarrassed for them with a woman coming over from coming over suffering from a foreign country to come and do the fucking laundry of this guy that probably doesn't wipe his own ass.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:18
And everyone being like they're here for a green card. Really? Because America is the greatest country in the world. I don't fucking think so. Is the other way around. Americans trying to get green cards to other countries to get the hell out of that place. Yeah, only the people on the show being like, oh, everyone wants to be here. I'm like, really?
Unknown Speaker 1:01:38
Oh my god, it's just so there's so much racism or anyway whatever. Continuing with the responses.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:44
pure laziness being constantly on is exhausting on apps. Women are more picky so have to be interesting to a number of men. Men play the numbers game and half ours it for a lot of women. They're looking for partners who will do all the work, weaponized incompetence.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:00
They have enough options that they don't need to put out put in a lot of effort. So common, they're self centered, poor communicators who haven't had to try. I've noticed that most of my boyfriend's exes never ask questions in person either.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:15
I've had the same issue. I think lack of self awareness. They don't even ask themselves questions. Yeah, they don't even ask themselves questions. A lot of men don't want to do the inner work questions, raise potential problems.
Unknown Speaker 1:02:29
Lack of emotional intelligence, lazy, expect women to do all the work, they lie a lot. So they expect you to do it. Also, they observe actions and decide if you're suitable. I think they're used to not having to do the labor honestly, they think they need to figure out the things they want to know it doesn't occur to care to them to ask in my opinion, they genuinely don't care. Women are not just on bedposts not people, because they don't give a fuck, as long as they as you look a certain way, they don't care what you have to say. Because they're lazy and expect women to do all the work. They've never been asked to do better, they just float on by with their privilege.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:12
Because straight men suck, and the bar is so low for them. And finally, talk to women instead.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:21
Oh my goodness. And so it's fun. It's funny because I just finished reading reading my last book. I was I was reading a book and now I'm on to my next book. And my next book is The tragedy of heterosexual ality that my therapist recommended for me and I'm just like
Unknown Speaker 1:03:41
yes, so my good news. And I'm only like 15 pages in and I'm like fucking I need to get the highlighter out and just highlight everything because it's so 100% on point like
Unknown Speaker 1:03:57
basically
Unknown Speaker 1:04:00
the bar for sis hat man is literally on the floor. And
Unknown Speaker 1:04:09
men don't actually like women that much this is all kind of not every man obviously. There's lots of great men out there who are who are kind and empathetic and emotionally intelligent and cool and blah blah blah. No any send them my way. But and and really what we're critiquing is
Unknown Speaker 1:04:32
the patriarchy and what happens because of that, and it's like it's it's a whole a whole load of shit basically, and men lose out because of it. Women lose out because of it. And gender non conforming people lose out because of it.
Unknown Speaker 1:04:52
So yeah, I'm, I'm,
Unknown Speaker 1:04:55
I'm just starting this and you know, the whole hetero
Unknown Speaker 1:05:00
Are they all the streets? Okay, that are the streets okay? It's so fucking funny like, go and look on like different Instagram accounts like all the streets okay? Like stuff that straight folks do which so cringe like, you know, like
Unknown Speaker 1:05:16
baby showers where the guy it turns out it's a girl and the guy throws a tantrum is like Oh for fuck sake because it's a girl because of what he thinks about women obviously or, or
Unknown Speaker 1:05:29
you know, saying saying, oh, gay people don't force your sexuality on us and then having things like, oh my god, there was this one.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:38
Someone announcing their pregnancy by saying like, we made a cake. One cup of money mummy, three squirts of daddy.
Unknown Speaker 1:05:49
So
Unknown Speaker 1:05:52
can you imagine a queer couple doing that? Like?
Unknown Speaker 1:05:59
No, because they don't like, Okay, I'm gonna find some more examples and we'll see who are because I started follow them last night.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:08
My people who aren't following me is not in order of when I followed them. Road
Unknown Speaker 1:06:16
what's the name of it? Anyway? Just Just look for the hashtag hashtag of the streets, okay, for hilarious examples of you know, just straight people like forcing sexuality onto others doing cringy things. And actually, you know, that whole like, oh, ball and chain. Oh, you know, and women actually not liking
Unknown Speaker 1:06:36
men's bodies and thinking penises are gross. By the way. I fuckin love a penis me.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:42
But, you know, a lot of a lot of people would really probably do better just not being with a man or woman, you know, just
Unknown Speaker 1:06:52
because they don't actually like them that much.
Unknown Speaker 1:06:56
It seems like And anyway, I want you to eliminate like 17 pages into this book. But it's so really, it's so really interesting. And so anyway, so that's the end of the episode I've been rambling on for about 50 years.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:09
Have you enjoyed it and just
Unknown Speaker 1:07:12
hashtag not all men? Because I know there's gonna
Unknown Speaker 1:07:16
there's gonna be some people be like you hate man. But you hate straight people. Probably not because you everyone listens to the podcast is really cool. But just in case anyone's like, thinks that. I hate men.
Unknown Speaker 1:07:29
I don't
Unknown Speaker 1:07:31
love men. That's why I want to have sex with them and be with them. Just most men are giant balans because they haven't done any work to get up to the level of, of what what we've all been doing. The rest of us have been trying to not be the same balance that we were 10 years ago. Men are still there from 10 years ago, you know, when you see a post on Facebook or memory, a memory of you from like, 2008 And you're like,
Unknown Speaker 1:08:04
you read it and you just it is just so embarrassing. I'm not the most shameful thing that you've said. No. And you're just like, if I knew that person, I would I would unfriend them. Yeah, so a lot of men are still there in 2008 version of themselves and they've not moved on. Whereas the rest of us have moved on and are like, Oh, I was a bit of a bellend but now I've read some books and done some therapy and trying to be better still probably lots of Belen qualities about me, but I'm trying
Unknown Speaker 1:08:40
whereas Yeah, a lot of people are just
Unknown Speaker 1:08:43
like in
Unknown Speaker 1:08:45
2008 Me was fucking cool.
Unknown Speaker 1:08:49
Yeah. Okay, well, have you had fun today, links to everything that I've spoken about in the show notes basically.com forward slash 123. If you work in a company and you want me to come in and talk about fatphobia and all of this type of stuff, then just send me an email. Or if you're a dietitian or a nutritionist, a therapist, you want me to train your staff then reach out to me if you want me to help you with making sure that your shit is not fat phobic. Reach out to me. You want to tell me that you that I'm the love of your life and
Unknown Speaker 1:09:29
that you have someone for me today in Vancouver then reach out to me.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:35
And I hope you all have a amazing rest of your day. And I'll see you in the next episode. Okay, goodbye. See later fatties and fattier lies and am I