Episode 104 Transcript

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Welcome to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm your host, Victoria Welsby and this is episode 104. Today, we're talking about BMI, the fat spectrum and who is classed as fat.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm Victoria Welsby TEDx speaker, bestselling author and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self-esteem to being a courageous and confident fierce fatty who loves every inch of this jelly. Society teaches us living in a fat body is bad. But what if we spent less time, money, and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that actually matter. Like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century. So how do you stop a negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the Fierce Fatty podcast. Let's begin.

What's up rat bastards Hello cowards. What's the word baby birds? Hello, my sweet so my children are what I do, baby. Hello friends and enemies. What's up demons? It's me. Yeah, boy. Listen up. fives, a tech speaking definitely reminder of them gender neutral Greetings. Did you enjoy them? They're on my Instagram page. Let me see if I've got lipstick on my teeth. Don't think so? Good. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Hopefully, I'm gonna be able to get through this podcast to tell you why. So I went and had a COVID test. I know what and how to code this test test a couple of couple of hours ago, I've got a cough and a headache. And I am a trying to be a good citizen. And so I looked it up and was like, if I've got an ID card, which is better than I don't think it's COVID. Because it's, you know, is my is? Is my mind reading my mind reading my you know, because I'm so well versed in what it feels like. Yeah, and so like with a cough and a headache, you need to get tested. Even if you just have a little bit of coffee, you need to get tested.

Apparently, I didn't know that I thought maybe the other coughing the cough was like this or that on and you had this and that or whatever. But you know, just just a symptom of cough means that you need to get tested. And if you have a headache, and then like one other symptom, I don't know what it was. That means you need to get tested. They do. I went and got went to the clinic walk straight in well, delayed slightly because there was a guy at the at the talking to the head. I think it was a leader of the clinic. He was like I want if I get this and I'm going to get chips in my arms and basically an anti Vaxxer who was like, listen, not I want to end. Yeah, so that was interesting hearing this person's theory. So yeah, so had little tinkle, tinkle of, you know, combat. tinkling minnows tinkling my brain didn't bring into the into my spinal combat column. That's not what it does. Don't get scared. If you've never had a COVID test. That's not what that's not what happens. They just stick the thing. And apparently, apparently, there is a way as well. So you don't do the swab. You can do, like, your saliva or something. It's mainly for kids. But at this clinic, he could have the option of but only if you hadn't eaten. And so they said, are you alright with a swab? And I was like, Yeah, fuck yeah, give me give me that if I can swab into my brain.

See if I've got missed some COVID. And because I'm vaccinated, if I do have COVID, then I'm probably going to be fine because that is what the vaccination does, it means that your symptoms are going to be way less severe than someone who is not vaccinated and obviously, harder to get, you know, if you are vaccinated, so hence why I'm like, I don't think I have, but in the two days until I get my test, my friend is very kindly looking after Dougie. So I can isolate for the two days. Do get my dog get the dog. So they're going to come around and pick them up in a couple of hours. So thank you for Thank you friends. Alright, so today Today's episode is about the BMI, the fat spectrum and who is classed as fat. You know what I've spoken about the BMI before I've never kind of like titled an episode about the BMI or the fat spectrum, or who's classed as as fat. And I was like, I need to title an episode so people can Find easily find it instead of having to listen to 100 episodes to see the bits and bobs I've spoken about it.

So I thought I just have one episode that is here for your brain. That and also, you might not have heard those episodes where I've spoken about these types of things. So, so the BMI is racist. I don't know, if you, you probably know that the BMI is for dough up. And yeah, so it's filled up. And it's not. It's not helpful in any way. So let me go, what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell you about the BMI. And I'm going to tell you about basically why from the BMI. The the language that I use to describe fat bodies, why Sperling from so going from that, you know, because they use the classification of human bodies as normal way and all of that type of stuff, the Oh words, and and then going into, like language, and then going into

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categories, the fat spectrum categories of fatness, why we have that why that's helpful, and work out whether you're a fat person or you're not a fat person. So a lot of people say, and other people say to me, like, I'm not sure, Am I fat, and I genuinely unsure because I guess sometimes people are like, they feel like they're definitely fat. But they, they, they, they aren't actually fat, but it's almost like they need to know or they are fat, and it's comforting, knowing that they are Anyway, anyway, whatever the reasons behind it. So let's talk about the body mass in Dex. And this is where we get the yo words, I'm going to say them quote unquote, overweight or obese. And then someone very helpfully said, Hey, thing, hey, let's just just not call them obeys.

Let's go in with some morbid obesity because let's just just hours increase the stigma there is going to be fun is going to be gray, let's help fat people really fucking hate themselves and help other people hate fat people even more. So that's where the Oh words come from. And the BMI you're probably very familiar with it, but just in case you're not. The BMI is a number that is generated by divided dividing someone's weight in pounds by their height squared and multiplying the result by 703. Sounds very scientific doesn't it must be true. So you think you know what I'm going to say? It's not the BMI is derived from a simple math successor maths, as we say, in UK, math, as people might say, in North America, math says a math formula. It was devised in the 1830s by Lambert, Adolphe Jacques quer Talay, quite clearly, a Belgian astronomer, mathematician, statistician, and sociologist. Oh, okay, so not a wait scientist or a doctor. Good old Lambert was was an astronomer mathematician number was like, I would like to know about population sizes. I'm just curious, what is the average weight that humans weigh? And he wasn't like, right, what are what are the weights that humans generally weigh? We should be falling into those categories that was not his thinking. And good old Lambert was obviously a white sis man and so he was like, Okay, let's study the population. You know, the mass population, but make sure that we only collect it from European sis, male people. Presumably they were sis. You know, this is the 1830. So, they were obviously non binary and trans folks existed but they probably didn't have the word For Well, white people didn't have the words for it because indigenous indigenous cultures absolutely did have the words for it.

But anyway, this is this is, you know, this is white people fucking up the world even more as normal, what else are we doing? So

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Lambert collected the data from white European men. And it was never meant to be used as an indicator for health. And he even said, listen, listen to him at the hawkers, he said, Now, we've looked at how much white European men weigh. This is not going to be a good kind of benchmark to categorize bodies as healthy or unhealthy. Or, you know, it's just, this is how much people tend to weigh right now. And a reminder, this is from the 1830s the 1830s. Do you think the body sizes have changed since then? Your yo, yo, was almost 200 years ago. Jesus, look, listen, listen, we're almost oh my god, we got in 2022. This is nice. 200 years ago, 200 years ago, 1830s 300 years ago, have human bodies changed? Yes. Because marvelous, marvelous access to food. And a lot of people have access to food. Great, amazing. And lots of different things are going on.

Big thing reason why people's bodies changed is as a kind of Spike. During the time that diets started to become popular mechanism for trying to get people to become thin. What did they do make people bigger? And of course, there's nothing wrong with being bigger. But anyway, this is a quote from Christine Byrne, who writes for The Huffington Post. That what is the title of this? The BMI is racist and useless. Here's how to measure health. Instead, I think it is. Here's how to measure health instead. Yeah. So quote from Christine Byrne. I'll link to this article show notes are at 104 first buy a Ford slash 104. Okay, although quick letter, I noticed that it was a population level tool, and not meant to be used on individuals Physiol physiology ologists Ancel Keys reintroduced the calculation in 1972 as the body mass index, so the B, by the way, it wasn't called the BMI before it was called the quota let's index or something like that. Not quite yet. Something anyway, doesn't matter. It shit. And you remember Ancel Keys? Do you remember Ancel Keys from a few episodes back? The Psychology of starvation. Ancel Keys was the one that did the who led the tests on that year long experiment starving men in World War Two. He was he was so he was that fella. There's lots of, you know, things around him where it's not so great. Not so great. So, as AKI is reintroduce Akash coagulation in 1972. And it has since been adopted by the medical community as a way to measure in diverge visual health continuing, while the BMI has countless failings as a reliable tool, and so this is continuing on the basically saying, Oh, Tom Cruise would be classed as the Oh word obese. Tom Cruise would be classed as obese. Yeah, I kind of have a problem with this with some there's something that that rubs me the wrong way. When we say Oh, hang on, Dwayne The Rock Johnson, he would be classed as morbidly obese, and therefore this is wrong because we kind of say when we're saying, look at this person, clearly they're healthy. And so it's wrong.

And you know, what, why are we having to use people who have bodies that are seen as desirable to say that this is wrong? We don't know if Dwayne The Rock Johnson is healthy. Because just from the way he looks

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good, we don't know we don't know anyone's health status just because and so it's kind of like saying, Hulu can't, you know, can't say that it's a helpful tool because clearly these people are, you know, fit quote unquote, these people are, are muscly, quote unquote, this is a Hollywood film actor. So they clearly is broken. So that using that example, I just, it just rubs me the wrong way. But what I see all the time and I think maybe it is a good way to convince people of, well if if Tom Cruise Dwayne The Rock Johnson are classed as obese and clearly then it's fucked up. There's like a bajillion reasons why it's fucked up. Outside of that continuing from this this article, which is good. By the way, this article I you know, I'm kind of criticizing that point. But say while the BMI has countless failings as a reliable tool, or racism is chief among them exactly, said Sabrina strings, a an assistant professor at the University of California, Irvine.

So, if you haven't read Sabrina's book, or listen to the audio, get it out from your local library bias, or whatever. Sabrina talks about the connection between fatphobia and racism. So this is what Sabrina said, it is racist. It is also sexist to usually use mostly white men within your study population and then try to extrapolate that and create norms and expectations for women, and people of color strings told HuffPost they have not been included in the initial clinical analysis, and therefore their actual health outcomes cannot be determined by these findings. In short, the way the BMI is being used is unscientific because of its origins and the homogenous population it was created from continuing weight standards have long been used to perpetuate racism in her book fair in the black body. Strings outlines the history of body standards and the ways in which thinness was used to uphold white superiority. I think they want to say white supremacy, as recent or superiority as recently as the early 20th century. So she describes how the thin bodies of Northern and Western Europeans were upheld as the ideal.

Well, the often larger bodies of Eastern and Southern Europeans is what Africans were considered signs of inferiority. All this was, was before we really knew anything about the still blurry and confounding relationship between weight and health. The modern BMI and its categories, underweight, normal, overweight and obese have inherited much of that racism. Even after all of the work that I've done. And the work that I've read about the creation of these weight categories. I've long wondered, who is this even based on string says this, you and then she mentioned the normal the normal range what it is, I'm not going to mention that number here, this normal BMI category that they arbitrarily came up with? What does that even about? There's something so strange about that I feel like almost certain that they were not researching places, people in places like Samoa where people can be healthier, much heavier weights.

There are so many ramifications of trying to create one normative table for the diverse people of the world. Strings added the whole thing is preposterous. Love that word. I need to say that more preposterous. So good one, isn't it? Isn't it another word? Also, there's another book I've bought, it's on my it's on my stand to read which is a little bit Belly of the Beast, belly of the beast. I'm just Googling it now belly of the beast, the politics of anti fatness as anti blackness. So this is by Deshaun L. Harrison, I've probably mentioned that before. But this this book, I've already mentioned in the last couple of episodes, because it came out in the last month. And it's exploring that that intersection too, which I think is really important. And I can't wait to read it. And I think that you should read it too. If you wanna, if reading is your friend.

Okay, so so we've got these, these these numbers from 200 years ago, when bodies were different using white European men. And then Ancel Keys was like, Yeah, I'm gonna bring you back in Come on girls, let's let's let's be dicks to people that shame them for their way and all of his girls away. Yes. And so then, in 1998, the quote, ideal slash healthy BMI was changed overnight. The committee within the World Health Organization changed it.

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And the committee was consisted of people who are directly linked to diet companies, or diet pill pharmaceutical companies. And, and they were lobbied by people like I think it was like the head of Weight Watchers at the time to change their categories. Why? And Sabrina strings says, Uh, why do we have these numbers? These numbers are arbitrary. You know why we have these numbers of atman numbers of I don't know 20 To 25 Is this one category 25 to 30 years, another whatever, those five in five increments, they are five not because of science because five is easy. Easy to remember. Five is easy. So it's not like this thing that is used has been used for years and years and years. That is such an important part of how we understand stood weight and health. It's not like they just picked the numbers out of their assholes. Oh, what's that?

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They did? They did. They just was like, fuck it,

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let's just make the Eat this and let's make 3025 that. And then the World Health Organization. And the NIH were like, hon, do you know, it'd be really cool if we changed it? And you know, the diet company? People were like, fuck, yes, let's do it. And overnight, they changed the categories. And so that 29 million people in the US overnight went from being a quote unquote, healthy weight to being an unhealthy weight, or from being overweight to obese. Hmm. Sounds like just someone have a solution for that. What's that diet companies are going to help you become thin with their diets? Well, that's very lucky. Oh, that's very lucky. And as well, insurance companies, they were rubbing their hands with glee because now they can charge people who are not a quote unquote, normal weight, more premiums, or even deny insurance to people. If they are what they see steam is too fat. So now many experts agree that their BMI is pretty unscientific and doesn't really tell you a tell us much about anything. Sometimes it might be good for working out medicine dosage. But even then, I've heard anesthesiologist say, actually, you know what? No, we don't really use it. And I've you know, obviously, some say different, but it just is not, it should be phased out as a way to measure health because it simply doesn't. It doesn't matter how, if at all, and is, is really fucked up.

So continuing on that from from the, you know, the words that they use in to describe bodies with the BMI. The words normal weight, overweight, obese. I mean, I mean, to start with normal weight, it's saying that there is a normal way for a human body to be, and that is the correct way for a human body. That that should be. Literally overweight means that you're over the right weight. And that's not true. Humans come in all sizes. No weight is the correct weight. If we all ate the same food and exercise, exercise, the same bodies will still be a variety of sizes, because you know, that's just what humans do. And the word obese is even more fucked up. So not only does it also presumed that you are over the right way, the word means its origins means eaten until gotten fat. Eaten until fat are people who are fat or fat because they were just like, Oh, I'm just gonna eat less food and just I'm just gonna come fat. And this is they're like, no, no, we know that people are fat for literally hundreds of different reasons. It's a really complex issue. The Oh words overweight and obese they it pathologize his fat bodies, it makes it that fat bodies are presumed to be diseased and wrong and need to be fixed. And in was it 2012 In the US fat was categorized as a disease, a lifelong condition, even though it's like what is one of the only things were having this condition, quote, unquote, everyone's outcome is completely different. Right?

And the cure for this condition there is no there's no there's no cure, even though that's not what you know, we're told just so when I if I hear someone using the word Oh, was I know that they're not safe. I know that they are they think my body is wrong. And within fat positive communities. The Oh words are I've seen a slurs, and a slur just in the definition of the word slur, and insulting or or disparaging remark or innuendo or shaming or degrading effect. Yeah, do we do we shamed and degraded with those words? Yeah. Is it insulting and disparaging? Yeah. So

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let's put them in a bin. Let's put them in the bin where they belong. And let's when we're all people be like, I remember the days when people used to say, Norman, wait, oh, wait, this is me when I'm 120. And then, you know, children are gonna be like, really? Yes, we even use the word obese. Isn't that so funny and weird. And the kids are going to be like, Oh, my God. Yeah. So why the word fat. For a lot of people, the word fat is explosively powerfully painful. And it used to be for me too, because what I understood the word fat to mean was lazy, greedy, and attractive, just an absolute piece of shit. And so if someone said fat, just call yourself fat, it's fine. That's a neutral scripture I have like, I don't want to because I'm not I don't want to be seen as lazy and unhealthy and unattractive, and all those type of stuff. So that's a lot of power behind a word. Why? And really, what word fat is saying is someone who is fat? Really, that's what it is. It's a neutral word, the same way as black hair or brown eyes or whatever. You know, it's, it's not. It's not inherently a bad thing. We've obviously tied. We've tied meaning to it.

But you there is no there is no negative meanings behind that word. In reality, of course, you can call yourself anything you like, if you love the words, and you just think, yeah, I feel so empowered by these words, do it. Listen, I am not the workplace, you do what you want, right? Do whatever it is that you feel good describing yourself. As a society, I think if we're moving towards more words that cause the least amount of harm. I think that is that is helpful, right? And so I consider fat to be reclaiming the word it's it. It is the rejection of the BMI. It is really a rejection of stigmatizing language for me. Also, thinking about euphemism. So some people don't like to say the word fat and so they want to say, fluffy or thick or curvy or, or zaftig or voluptuous or Rubenesque. When we use euphemisms that can imply that we don't want to wait we're skirting around the idea. We're trying to make something that seems bad. Something that is bad seemed better. There's nothing wrong with being fat, right? And so we don't need to use these euphemisms.

Again, if you like those words, go for it, do what you want. But a lot of people in the fat community see them as kind of trying to make something that's bad, better, and fat is not bad. So we don't need to make it better by using euphemisms by using fluffy and soft words or cutesy words. And again, if you'd like those, go ahead,

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go for it. Go for it. Other words

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that you can use which are not euphemisms would be things like larger body higher weight, bigger body to a certain extent plus size or a plus size can also be seen as a as a euphemism and also what is plus size. Yeah, so bigger body highway, larger person. Yes. Also, some people say person of size, people of size. That kind of edges into person first language. So let's talk about person first language. So I want to give you a quote from Reagan, Chasteen and Reagan rights. person first language, first a bit about bit of background person slash people first language, quote, brackets. PFL start is a task started as a tool in disability in the disability community. The idea that putting the person before their illness or disability helps to decrease stigma, for example, a person with a disability rather than a disabled person. There is a lot of controversy within that community around this and I recommend reading work from people in that community to gain a better understanding, and Regan links to a post from the body is not an apology. Rachel, written by Rachel Cohen Rottenberg that says the problem with first person first language.

And so wonderful quote from here is see both the person and the disability because there is nothing, de human to humanizing or shameful about a disability. That's a little quote from that that article. But let's continue with what regular saying, this became pertinent to higher weight people, because organizations that claim to advocate against weight stigma, but are in fact, fully funded by those who sell dangerous and expensive weight loss drugs, and surgeries, began pushing it as a part of a larger campaign to pathologize higher weight bodies. So there are a lot of organizations who say they are for fat people to help fat people. But actually what they're, they're advocating for is eugenics. They're saying, fat people need to lose weight. So we're here for that people. And they and here's a little, here's a little clue for you. Any organization that has the Oh, words in the title here, red flag, giant waving red flag covering sparklers, because there's already they they're pathologizing people with that word, you know, any Oh, word? I mean, can you imagine? I mean, I know there is in the Autistic community in or in the autism community. There. There's organizations and they use like the puzzle pieces logo. And what they're trying to do is they are trying to reduce the incidences of autism versus celebrating neurodiversity. And so autism activists are like, Listen, don't don't support those organizations, because they basically just want to erase us, which is eugenics. And it's the same with these people who are companies, that organization is not for profits, who use the O word, and it's like, just make from the beginning, we know what you're doing. What they're doing is trying to make Fat people not fat anymore. I mean, what? Hello, you're, you're causing harm, you're doing the opposite thing that you should be doing.

Anyway, so continuing, they began suggesting rather than quote unquote, overweight or obese, it's less stigmatizing to use a language like so we're going back to in case you forgot, what do you think about person first language? So these these places, this is another thing. They say? Listen, saying someone is obese is root. Saying someone with saying a person suffering from obesity. That's what we need to do. Versus being like, holy shit, why are we even using the old words? Holy shit? Why are we trying to get fat people to be thin? Holy shit, are we engaging in something productive act up? No, they don't do that.

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Let me just read that again. So they began suggesting that rather than overweight or obese, it is less stigmatizing to use language like the woman was affected by obesity instead of the woman was obese. The man with obesity was on a bus instead of the man on the bus was very obese. They then use this concept to bolster their case for insurance coverage for their quote, treatments. In truth, this language actually increases stigma because person first language is not being suggested for other adjectives that describe our bodies. Nobody is advocating that we say the woman was affected by fineness or the man where the brunette nurse was on the bus. The use of person first language suggests that accurately describing a higher weight person's body is so awful, that we have to find a way to talk around it. It also shifts the blame from weight stigma to larger bodies. When someone says the woman affected by obesity, it suggests that the problem is her body size and not the weight stigma and lack of accommodation that is actually harming her. This also goes for the concept that you are not fat. You have fat, like the you are not fingernails. You have fingernails. That one just Velcade I rose me You're not fat, you have fat is just so you use so fucked up.

Again, notice how this isn't applied to other body descriptors. Nobody says you're not tall, you just have heights. Or don't call yourself brunette, you just have brown hair. The suggestion that we need to talk around body size in higher weight people, and in a way that we don't infinit people is enough in and of itself stigmatizing. Thank you, Regan. Chasteen, for that beautiful little slip knot synopsis on person first language. Again, if you want to use person first language to describe yourself, go for it, just given you the information car. Alright, so let's move into the fat spectrum or fat auguries as some folks like to, to say. And Linda from fluffy kitten part in party in the last couple of months has come out with an updated version of her blog post, which is small for understanding categories understand the small fat fragility and the fat spectrum. And originally written in like 2016, updated also, ash from the fat lip is someone who is basically the person who has really pushed the knowledge on this forward. So I want to give you a quote from fluffy kitten party, her post an introduction to what a lot of people say when we say talk about the fat spectrum or categorizing fat bodies, or fat auguries is they say, We don't want the BMI? Why would we want to categorize fat bodies? We don't want the BMI which categories categorizes bodies. So why are we doing this? So let me read you isn't fat enough of a descriptor? Honestly, no, not really fatness, like many things exists on a spectrum. Over time, as fat activism has become increasingly intersection, or, as communities aim to send to the most marginalized in their ranks, people have developed labels that describe where they fall on the fat spectrum.

Also, by the way, with the BMI, the, the thoughts behind it is that the closer to a quote, normal weight you are, the better, the healthier, the more, you know, attractive, and all that type of shit. With the fat spectrum. There's nothing like that. It recognizes the amount of privilege someone has. And now for folks who are kind of struggling on the idea of what privileges privilege is not something that you can,

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you know, you're you're born with privilege, and other times, privileges is mostly earned. It doesn't make you a bad person, it just is what it is. So if you have thin privilege, it doesn't mean that you need to go and like jump off a cliff or something because you're a bad person, because you happen to have a smaller body is just recognizing that your life is not more difficult because you have a thin body. Right? Your life is not more difficult because you have a thin body. Whereas someone with a bigger body, their life is more difficult. And someone like like me, I'm an I'm a medium, medium fat person. My life is way easier than it would be for someone who is a super fat person or a large fat person. For example, there is one store that I can shop in Vancouver, a medium fat person, a large fat person and Infini fat person, a super fat person would have zero. And that's just one example. I can go in and in restaurant chairs, I can fit if I need to, I will ask for a different chair, often, but I can squeeze myself in if I need to. And be uncomfortable, some people will literally not have a seating option at all. And so when I describe my experiences as a fat person, I need to recognize my privilege that my experience living in the world can be a lot different from someone who has a bigger body, you know. And so I can't say I speak for all fat people and I know what it's like to experience that I don't feel, you know, and it doesn't mean that I'm bad doesn't mean that you're bad is just the way it is. Okay, so continue working on this. These labels or categories essentially attempt to create a shorthand that quickly and efficiently describes where a person is on the spectrum of fatness and their experiences living in the world in those fat bodies, it is difficult, it's a difficult thing to attempt because size oppression touches so many areas of fat people's lives. And these conversations can be very nuanced. No system of labels is going to be perfect or accurately reflect every single person's lived experience. But these terms are commonly used in fat communities. Okay, so what are the terms I'm going to give, you know, kind of not even, you know, outside of the fact spectrum today, let me give you a couple of terms outside of the fat spectrum, just in case you you're not familiar with them. First is straight size. So when I say straight size, the reason why a lot of us use a word, the term straight size versus thin, or skinny, or not fat, is that a lot of times when someone who isn't fat isn't fat, they don't identify as thin, right? A lot of people who are not fat don't identify as thin. Because when we think of someone who is thin, we think of someone who is very thin. When we think about someone who's skinny, we think of someone who is who is who is very small, right? So someone can be straight sized, and not be experiencing marginalization due to their fatness, but also not feel thin. The reality is they are.

But some people want to make a distinction between someone who is very small versus someone who is small, you know. And so I did an episode on episode on this, maybe seven episodes ago, it was called What's with this mid size thing. And so the next category is mid size. And so a mid sized person is, is they're not thin, but they're not fat. So they're probably a size 1214 us in the UK that's 1416 or in men's clothes or in non binary sizes, that's probably a medium or a large or smaller. So this person is definitely straight sized. Okay, if they were in a size 16 uk, or 14 us or medium and large, they're straight sized. And so this this trend has been has been going on I did a whole episode on it. This trend has been going on kind of a lot around tick tock recently it's not a new thing it's been around for many years now. And a lot of fat people hate it because it's some people who are mid size thinks think thinks that

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we shouldn't shouldn't be highlighting fat bodies because fat bodies have had their time. That's not true. The families have never had that time and we shouldn't be highlighting thin bodies instead we should be celebrating mid sized bodies. And actually mid size bodies are very well represented in everywhere especially in plus size clothing holy shit because they get the mid size models to come in and model the frickin plus size clothing and pin it at the back. Many companies do that looking at you toward the models or fucking Fen Phen you're never see a medium fat, large fat, anyone like that, you know modeling these clothes and it's not just hard it's lots of different companies. Anyway so and then some people say that it's good to say to recognize the there are people who don't feel thin even though they are thin and it's important to recognize that and say that there is a space for them online.

And here's where you can shop sort of thing. So I mean for me, I'm kind of indifferent about it whenever you know if you want to, if that's if that feels good to you use it also recognize that you have a shutdown a privilege your now so next let's move on to a small fat person so a small fat person is a US size 18 A UK size 20 and lower. So that might be an XL or a 2x in different closes, closes clothes and they generally can find clothes that fits in mainstream brands. There's lots of choices, not as much if it compared to a straight size person. Okay, next category is medium fat and a medium fat is US size 2224 A UK 22 to 26 or a 2x or 3x You can shop at some mainstream brands, but mostly plus brands and online for me, huh? Yeah, yeah, I'd say yeah, there are, I guess like, so for me, I can go to Old Navy, because I would be a, I'd be like a 3x Yeah, I'd be a 3x at Old Navy. And so that is a mainstream brand. Okay, next category. And obviously we're talking about clothing here a lot of times clothing is used as a point of reference for accessibility because because clothing is in categories anyway, of sizes, it kind of recognizes that but also, this is not perfect, because you could be one size in the bottom a different size on the top, you could be a straight size in the bottom or the top and a plus size and in the opposite in the other. And also, you know, a lot of this is focused on women's clothing and not recognizing maybe men's or non binary clothing as much. Anyway, so just a little critique there. Okay, next, so that was medium fat, that's a 20 to 24 in the US 22 to 26. UK, a super fat person.

And so the the term super fat was created at the 2008 No lose conference, I would love to get your fat conference, wouldn't you. Or also at this super fat. Also at this level, you can also use the word Infini fat which was coined by ash from the fat lip podcast, and a super fat or Infini fat is a 26 to 32 that is in us size UK a 28 to 34 and that would be a Forex or a 5x. And these they would wear the highest sizes of plus sizes. So the highest the biggest sizes in plus size stores and can only shop online because they aren't going to be any brick and mortar places that will carry 4x and 5x You know, obviously there are maybe a few but you know it's not that you're going to go walk into your mall and find them

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especially if it's kind of 5x Because a lot of a lot of and saucy West is saucy West go follow as in its saucy as you would spell saucy, but with a knee saucy West, who is doing an incredible job of highlighting the fact that most plus brands ended a 3x And even when we say three eggs, so they're what we call Junior plus sizes so that means they ain't three eggs. They're like a 1x and so they're like always so inclusa we go to three eggs and then it's like, oh, I'm assigned 16 And I you know I can't fit into the 3x and so is it a 3x Or is it as I said you know what I mean? So saucy West is doing an incredible job campaigning asking for these companies who have for years and years and years have said we can't make any more plus sizes like we already go to a to x which is the size 14 So what else do you want from me? We're so inclusive we dress every body size. Everybody is welcome at our store. Unless you're like a 4x or above then you can go away and the hashtag that saucy created is fight for inclusivity also, she originally had another hashtag which was fat and free. So go and look for fight for inclusivity for a list of stores that do actually carry more inclusive sizes. And actually some stores have come back and said Your I ship Thank you saucy we are going to be expanding our ranges which is incredible. I mean clothing It's like a It's a very basic thing we need it we can't go outside and being excluded from affordable fashion forward pieces is not okay. And even to be able to get anything your hands on anything is not okay. Yeah, so. So that is super fat or Infini fat. So that is a size 26 to 32 U S UK 2834 or a 4x 5x or higher. So that that is kind of like Infini fat, the term and Finney fat ash talks about how it's like infinity right? It's kind of size 26 onwards. Then there's another cat. There's another category, which is death fat. And this is coined by Lesley Kinzel. And that is a size 34. and higher or 3232 3236. UK 36. UK, that's a 6x plus. And so that's very hard to find anything that fits often requires custom sizing.

Also, this term can be used to describe any size. So anyone could say, you know, like, Oh, I'm a deaf fat because some people say that it's, it's described someone who is bigger than an Infini fat. And some people say it's just kind of like a tongue in cheek phrase, and no size is ascribed to it. So something to recognize here as well, there's no kind of head of fattiness, you know, there's no leader, there's no one person who says, this is definitely what it is. Some people like these categorizations, because it helps us understand privilege. And it helps us make sure that Infini fat, or super fat people are given or not left out the conversation. Because a lot of times, when we think about fat positivity, it's people who look like me, right? It's people who look like me or smaller. And so I'm, I'm a medium fat. A lot of times it's smaller, fat people who are leading the conversations, because of fat phobia is easier to hear messages like this from someone my size or smaller, versus someone who is bigger because in society, we view people who were who were the very fattest as the most unappealing and unpalatable because of fatphobia. Right? And that's not okay. And so a lot of people appreciate this, this spectrum to recognize that and there's no kind of, you're better or worse, because you're bigger or smaller. And some people don't like it, and that's okay. If it works for you use it who doesn't know. Now moving on to the to the final piece in today's episode of, Am I fat? As in? We're not me, I am fat. Are you fat?

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So a lot of people say to me, am I fat? Am I fat? And, you know, because, you know, you might fall into having a straight size, you know, bottoms and plus size top or plus size, top and straight size. But what you know, the, the opposite, straight size 12 And plus size, whatever. How am I fat? Do I get to call myself fat? Am I just co opting a term and taking it from mine? And actually, I'm a mid sized person, should I be using it? Well, I've got a question for you to consider. Am I fat? When I was asking that? Have you faced marginalization because the world isn't made for you, if you have faced marginalization, because the world isn't made for you made for your body, for example, fitting into a chair at the theater, being able to buckle your seat belt on an aeroplane being able to walk into the mall and find somewhere to shop. If you've experienced marginalization because of your body size, and it's not, it's not feeling like people would prefer that you are thinner, because that is the case for most sizes, right? Most sizes. Most people feel that the world or you know, a romantic partner or whoever would prefer them if they were thinner, because we live in a fat phobic society. So it's not the feeling of it. It's the have you experienced marginalization and that's not, I don't want to date you because you're a size 14 And I only want to date size 10s That's obviously fucked up. But is the world made for you? And I think that's a question to ask. I mean, you know, again, I've said this a million times. You can use whatever word you want to use to describe yourself. But one thing to consider is that if you are a straight size person and you you're using the word fat to describe yourself that can be that can be really fucked up. That can be really fucked up. Because it's like, fat people know what I'm talking about. You've really smalls friend is like, I am so fat. Oh, I'm huge. I'm a whale. And they're not. And so what they're saying is, fat is unattractive. Oh, I'm so scared of being fat. What if I am fat? Oh, I need you to reassure me that I'm not fat. Especially because you're a fat friend. And I want you to tell me that I'm beautiful. It's not kind. It's not helpful. And it's not aiming to be progressive, which is what we're trying to do. We're all we're all gonna fuck up. I mean, Jesus. I've been, you know, most of my life. I was a giant Belen. So I aligned Jesus. Oh my god. So yeah.

Alright, so I think that I've covered most of everything. And again, like, this isn't perfect. This is not, you know, I'm not speaking for all fat people and all that type of jazz. But there's some, there's some, like kind of overviews for you. So, if you have any questions about this, feel free to email me, send me a note on the on the, on the podcast page, the show notes, the will be a form for you to fill into to get questions asked, asked, which is actually the best way, that's the best way I say email me, but actually fill out that form because then I'll go look at that form once in a while and then answer the questions, you know, raise an email, get lost, get lost, get lost, get all lost. Also, by the way, I'm going back and I'm, I found a tool for transcriptions, which is something that I can afford to do now previously to get transcriptions for your podcast.

For me, it was I was doing it for a couple of months, and I just couldn't keep up the cost of it because it was like 400 US a month. Plus, and then and then the admin behind that getting it getting on and so yeah, $400 plus, and so that was cost prohibitive for me, but now, a new solution. Someone shared with me this new solution called otter. Ai. Otter, I think it's o TT Yeah. otter.ai. And it's like, I think you can get, let's see pricing plans, in case you you have something that you want to get transcribed. Or, you know what, you can go hook it in with your zoom and have live captions, live captions and live transcript. How cool is that? Because obviously, I want to make things as accessible as possible. But you can actually Oh, look, there's a free plan and then Pro is only 833 US a month actually, that's, that's billing annually. 1299 us a month, or business is 30 us a month, like Yeah, 1,000,000,000% I'm going to do that. And so also we're going to go back and so all episodes moving forward. We're going to be doing that and also going back through all the old episodes to make sure that they all have trans preps.

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So yeah, just an FYI, there. Okay, so thanks for hanging out with me today. I hope you enjoyed this podcast and look, I don't know what I don't think I've got COVID I survived talking for an hour. I didn't die. Hmm, what do you think? Do you think next week, I'll tell you, I'll tell you if I have COVID or not. Fingers crossed. Okay. See you later. I'll stay FERS Valley thanks for listening to the episode and if you feel ready to get serious about this work and want to know when the doors open to fears fattier Academy which is my signature program, where I teach all about how to overcome your fat phobic beliefs and learn to love your fat body. Then go to phase fatty.com forward slash waitlist again, that is phase fatty.com. Forward slash waitlist to get your name on the waitlist. For when first Mati Academy my signature program opens.