Episode 83 Transcript

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Welcome to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm your host, Victoria Welsby and this is episode 83. Today, we're talking about body positivity gone too far.

I'm Victoria Welsby TEDx speaker, Best Selling Author and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self esteem to being a courageous and confident fifth party who loves every inch of this jelly. society teaches us living in a fat body is bad. But what if we spent less time, money and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that actually matter? Like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed? Or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century? So how do you stop negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the first fatty podcast Let's begin.

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Hey, fears, fatties. Welcome to this episode. How you doing? How's life? Are you right? Um, all right. Good. I'm really excited because I got my first vaccine. Oh, yes, I got some FISA in my arms. And now I have 5g coming out of my eyeballs, and I got that lizard skin is really good. Now being tracked by the government is amazing. None of those things happened in case any conspiracy theorists are listening and thinking, Oh, yes. We know that that would have happened. No, I just got my vaccine and had a bit of a sore arm some sort lymph nodes.

And then the next day, I kind of thought that I was tired, but I was like, am I tired on the way am I do I think I'm tired? Because I think I should be tired. Who knows? But yeah, after day my arm was mess around was gone. I had a vaccine, HPV vaccine like a month or two ago. Am I sore arm asked lasted like for, again 17 years. And so I was expecting that from from this COVID vaccine and it didn't happen. So I was like, Yeah, this is amazing. And I got my vaccine in downtown Vancouver. The efficiency blew my mind. So they were vaccinating 4000 people a day just in that location. And people arriving about 100 people every 15 minutes. And we were just moving through no big deal. And they had like everything was just so perfect.

At the end, I got a sticker. So I was really happy about that. Got me sick. I also went on a bike ride with Louise green, aka big fat girl. She's one of my friends. If you don't follow her on the Instagrams, go and follow her if you want some movement from a fat person stuff. So I went with her and another friend of ours called Taryn and we went for a nice bike ride on a Friday evening. Was it Friday, no Saturday went around Stanley Park in Vancouver here. And we had a then had dinner on a patio. So good. It was so nice biking with two of the fat people because Karen's fat as well. And so, afterwards Oh, like, oh my god, your legs are so strong. Why'd you were going so fast? And I was like, Oh, really? Wow, look at these big strong legs. And it's cool to it's so nice for me to cycle with fellow fatties because I've always cycled with straight size people. And I feel like I'm a pretty okay cyclist. But then when I'm when I cycling with straight sides, people so I used to cycle a lot with my ex boyfriend and my sister and my sister calf is really into cycling. Really kind of would go on a bike, but I'm just going on a bike ride and then, you know, four days later, she's like, Oh, just you know, I just whipped around. No big deal. I just did 1000 miles, you know, did it in 10 minutes. Anyway, and so I always felt like I wasn't good compared to them that I you know, because I had to sometimes get off my bike to go up a hill but and they were like doo doo doo doo going up. And it kind of felt a bit like

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I don't know I don't know, what's the words I'm searching for. Like, it's not their fault, but it was just really nice to be with fellow fatties who were going the same pace as me. And, you know, just it was just really nice. So if you have the opportunity to go and hang out with fellow fatties and do things, then I suggest that you do because obviously, you already know that you already know this, that fat people are awesome. So yes, yep, yep, yep.

Now, for this episode, I have watched some really fucked up shit on the internet. So really backed up shit in incognito mode. So hopefully, I'm not going to get targeted by a ton of diet ads, or have these videos recommended to me, but I watched. I watched videos from anti body positive people, anti fat people, to see the arguments that they were using to kind of debunk body positivity or fat positivity to see if they had any, if they were legitimate, and see if they had any good criticisms so that I could talk about them. And so in my, in my research for in my, in my research, research for things to do for this podcast, I will research what people Google right. And so in regards to body positivity, intuitive eating, fat positivity, the types of things that people are googling so that I can answer your most common queries.

And I know not everyone who was googling it, are fat positive people. But one of the things that has been on my list for a long time, and I thought, Well, I'm not ever going to do that, because I don't want to expose myself to the bullshit is the Google search, body positivity gone too far. And there'll be there's another one too, I might make a I might put it somewhere in the so that when when someone searches, this comes up, but there's another one like fat positivity, Cringe Compilation or fat positivity Fails Compilation. So I might put that that keyword string somewhere, so that if someone Google's it, they might have a lonely fat positive voice in the conversation around this stuff, also means I might get targeted by trolls, and don't want that. But I do want to reach people who maybe are on the fence. Anyway, and not only that, some of you watch some of you have watched these videos, and you know, accidentally, and or maybe on purpose. And you might be dealing with people who believe the same stuff that these anti fat creators create. And so what if you're talking with someone and they say, but what about blah, blah, blah? I want you to have the information to be able to say, Oh, well actually did you know, blah, blah, blah.

And so you're not struggling to to deal with those types of people or even have those thoughts yourself. So you could be thinking, but what about XYZ? And so this video is this podcast is all about helping you navigate that world of fucked up bullshit. And yeah, so I watch the videos, I watch the videos. Oh, don't listen, don't go on google this shit, okay, because it's not good for your mental health. Really, it is it is not good for your mental health. And if you're not in a really good place with this stuff, then it's probably going to be triggering and you're probably going to feel bad afterwards. And it's only I didn't actually, you know, I talked about how these videos are all full of stuff. I was able to actually hear what they're saying. And be like, Oh, okay, okay, interesting. Uh huh. Alright, and look at their criticisms because they were so out there that it was kinda silly or funny or, versus the stuff where people are, are more

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uninformed and they're kind of trying they're just an average person and may come out with with fat phobic shit, then that can sometimes be like, Oh my God, a little bit more difficult to deal with, versus someone who's really like clean He does not know what they're talking about. So the biggest thing that I came across and I'm going to be, by the way, trigger warning, I'm going to be sharing some of their quote unquote arguments against fat positivity and body positivity in this video, and so if you don't want to hear those arguments, I say arguments in a very kind of all loose sense. Well, they are arguments, I guess, but they're not good arguments, I'm going to immediately quash them. So if that doesn't feel good for you today, then skip this episode. But the main thing, the main, big, massive thing that I saw, with all of the videos that I watched, the big thing was, people don't know what body positivity is. And it's not like they don't know as in they think body positivity is about loving your body. And they're confused about that.

And actually, that's body love. And body positivity is actually started by fat people, fat, black, queer, trans folks, who say, hey, let's not be dicks to marginalize people. It's not that they don't know that bit. They don't know. They're not even corps. They're not even in the same country of what body positivity is. And so I'm like, there were my pen and paper ready to blank. Okay, well, they say, here's a really good argument about against body positivity that I can be like, oh, yeah, that's a really good point and blah, blah, blah. But then I'm watching these videos. And and I'm like, What the fuck is this? What? Okay, so the confusing about what body positivity is I'll tell you about one of these videos, but I want to talk to you about like, what this is, okay. So, the talking about they say, Okay, there's one video says, This is why I hate body positivity. Okay, this that's the title of video. This is why I hate body positivity. And then proceeds to a straw man argument. Now let me tell you what a straw man argument is, if you if you're not familiar with it, a straw man. So this is from Wikipedia is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one. One who engages in this fight fallacy is to be is said to be, quote, attacking a straw man. Okay, so that's a lot of words. Let me let me give you the example. So this this this video title, this is why I hate body positivity. Okay, so the video was about whether you should sleep naked in bed with your teenage children. Yeah.

Okay, so then this is why I hate body positivity, because it's the video was about whether you should sleep naked in bed with your teenage children, and then went on to talk about a Dutch show. A Dutch, the Dutch TV company that has made a show talking about educating children about the human body. And instead of looking at drawings of the human body, they have humans standing in front of them. And so they'll have like, you know, like a life drawing class and, and so the children are looking at real life naked people. And so, there was an article written about this TV show said saying we are doing this to encourage body positivity. Now, that's not that that is the that's the sleeping, what sleeping in bed with your teenage children naked, and a TV show being made. And then someone had written about the TV show saying this is body positivity. And so this person has read this, this article that says, This is encouraging body positivity, and has just taken it for face value that that is what body positivity is. And it's, it's not and so the video is like, No, we shouldn't sleep in bed with our teenage children like body positivity is so fucked up, but they think that we am basically suggesting in the whole video that

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the body positivity is all about assaulting sexually assaulting children. It's not against any confusion there. It's no body positivity. stems from fat positivity, which is saying, hey, fat people, or marginalized identities should have the same rights and freedoms as any other body size. And so people are like, outraged, oh my god, this is terrible. Oh, these body positive people trying to force naked people onto children like that. And look at those children. Some of them are like 10 years old, this is terrible. And so I'm like, What the fuck this, this is not body positivity. And the same guy. So something that he looked at a big theme is, is kind of appearing kind of moderate. And so starting his videos were things like, this is a quote, If you want to be happy with a body, you got all the power to you. But don't put it out there for everyone else, encouraging others to lead lives that aren't overly healthy. And so that statement is kind of like a general like fat phobic statement, nothing too offensive, right? So they sprinkle in niceties. And obviously, that's still, you know, problematic, but they sprinkle in kind of niceties like that, and then say extreme things. And so, so, people will be like, No, hang on, they said that it's good to love your body. So, you know, just because that they said that this person was disgusting piece of shit, then you know, but they support loving your body. And it sounds like a lot of what these people are saying is they like that they think that people should be happy in their body. So it sounds like even with the most extreme people out there who were antibody positive, that they actually kind of our body positive. But they just they're just confused as to what body positivity is. And we see this a lot with lots of different things, people using the straw man straw man arguments, you know, like feminism, or I'm not a feminist because I don't hate men. It was like, well, great, because feminists don't hate that's, that's not what feminism is. It's saying that, hey, maybe we should treat all genders equally, that means that men should be treated equally as women. So you know, in times where men are not treated equally.

So, for example, in family situations, like family court things that's not appropriate, or gender stereotypes around men saying men have to be the breadwinners, and all that type of jazz. That's not appropriate, right? And so feminism is saying, hey, let's break down all of those gendered roles. And let's just make sure that everyone is treated equally doesn't matter about the agenda. But people will be like, well, feminists are just about like, they just want to murder all men. And it's like, isn't that true? Not really. So here are the other ways in which they get confused about what body positivity is. So first one is they think that body positivity is about telling people that they aren't fat. So body positivity. This is what what, what I've seen in my collection of information is it's about a fat person says, Oh, I feel I'm fat. And body positivity is saying you're not fat. You're thin and so denying people's realities. That is not what body positivity is. In fact, it's probably the opposite right? They think that if we believe that black lives matter, we OUI OUI and so they're saying if we really did believe that black lives matter, then we would shame fat black people into being thin

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so see how that's like it if the if we really were not racist, that we would shame fat black people into losing weight and so and so body positivity is encouraging racism because we're not shaming fat black people telling them to lose weight, their body positivity like all is racist anyway because it's just filled with white people, right but you This is one of their arguments. Next one, that body positivity isn't important. Because get this one, get this one. body positivity isn't important because out of the population, there aren't that many trans folks. Yep, you heard me right where this is going. body positivity isn't important because there are hardly any trans folks, this is their argument. Instead, we should care about other things more. I know your brain is going what, what the fuck at once. And so, we should not care about body positivity because, okay, so there are hardly any trans people their words, therefore, there are more important things to worry about.

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What? Okay, so the next one is, there should be a middle ground. And so this is a a logical fallacy. Again, there should be a middle middle ground. So this is what they think. Don't tell fat people, they are fat, because that's mean. But don't tell them it's okay to be fat. Just shame them the right amount. Okay, don't be mean and tell a fat person that they're fat. But you should shame them and tell them that they're fat so that they lose weight. So, quote, this is from one of a different creator. If you love someone enough, you'll tell them the truth. You're so caught up with coddling people, you're not telling them the truth.

So, but the thing is, it's not actually the truth, like the truth like Oh, you're so fat, you're about to die. It's not actually the truth is it's an opinion, it just makes that person feel superior. And that person is is is caught up in their their own biases and thinks thinks that they're that's the truth and they're being helpful. And, you know, you're so caught up with coddling people, you're not telling them the truth? Well, thank fuck for people who are telling us that we are fat and we are going to die any minute because we have never heard that one before. I know. Is this new information to you? Yeah, it is to me to thank God I watched these videos because I was walking around. And I had no idea that I was fat. And I had no idea that people think that fat people are disgusting are going to die at any minute. So Thank fuck, that these people are not coddling me anymore. And telling me that I a piece of shit. It's so nice. And so this is this is an argument to moderation. And so they're saying, Don't be just don't be a massive dickhead about it. But still, you know, don't tell them that their body is fine. And so they're saying, okay, so that the the options are. Tell them that it's okay to be fat or be a raging dickheads. And they're like, well, the middle ground here is to tell them, they should lose weight. But do it in a nice way. Do it as eyes away. Whatever that looks like there is no wait nice way to do that. And so, this is known as this is from Wikipedia, a false compromise argument from middle ground and the golden mean fallacy. It's the fallacy that the truth is a compromise between two opposing positions. An example of a fallacious use of the argument to moderation would be to regard two opposed arguments. One person saying that the sky is blue, while another claims that the sky is in fact yellow, and conclude the truth is that the sky is green, while green is a color created by combining blue and yellow. Therefore being a compromise between the two positions. The sky is obviously not green, demonstrating that taking the middle ground of two positions does not always lead to the truth. You see this in like in political debates, right? And so you have the conservatives who are saying outrageous, far right things. And left's saying, hey, why don't we why don't we just treat people like human beings? And they're like, Well, let's look at the middle ground. Let's treat them like half human beings. When then that that's not helpful, right? Because a lot of people are You know, conservatives far right? People are like, well, you know, we have all of these different groups of people and they should be banished from society. The, the looking at the middle ground there is is not helpful, right.

And so that is a big thing that they're doing is the middle ground and the middle ground is between an extreme and between something which is pretty rational, which is how about we just be good to people. So, here is another thing that they do. This is a quote. body positivity should be for people with birth defects, amputees, burn victims, etc. Okay, so this is this is kind of what I've mentioned this before this argument that

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BoPo isn't body positivity isn't an important important because there are hardly any trans people and said we should care about other things more. And this one to body positivity should be for people with birth defects, amputees, burn victims, etc. So that's a quote from them. So both of these are fallacy of relative privation. fallacy of relative privation, probation. This is a red herring fallacy. Okay, so the kind of the group of this is red herring. This is also known as appeal to worse problems, or not as bad as and so this is a logical fallacy. And so dismissing an argument or complaint due to what are perceived to be more important problems. First world problems are a subset of this fallacy. Okay, so let me talk about this more, because you see this all the time. Like, why are we why are we encouraging fat people to be fat, when there are actual people who need help with learning to love their body? People who were deserving and worthy, and you see that, like, you know, you've probably experienced it tons of time. You know, when you're in the dinner table, you better eat all your food, because there are starving children in this world. That that, that that is the appeal to worse problems, fallacy, the fallacy of relative privation.

Okay, and so, this is from this quote here that I'm reading is from Academy for s c.org. I'll link to it so you can learn more about this this fallacy. Quote, not all comparisons are necessarily fallacies. If you only have the resources to fix one problem, saying a different issue is, quote, not as bad as another is perfectly reasonable. In fact, the comparison itself isn't problematic. The issue lies in asserting the original claim should be ignored, because it is not the worst thing ever. I found this interesting. You know, they like their trend, like first world problems. And we do a lot of of comparing our problems to others and saying, Well, my problem doesn't count because someone else has it worse than me. Well, is that helpful? In the way when it could be helpful is, you know, I have $100 And I have a leaky roof, or I want to buy a new TV like, so there. We'd say Well, which one is worse? Oh, the leaky roof. Let's fix a leaky roof. Right. But if you then said actually not having a TV that is so insignificant and stupid, you're you're ridiculous, but even wanting a TV like what the hell is wrong with you? Other people in the world don't have a TV, then that's when it becomes unhelpful. And so you'll see this a lot like in you see this argument a lot. Why are we why are we caring about the problems of fat people when other people are dying in the world when some people have cancer, when animals are being treated cruelly? Well, it's a red herring, right? It doesn't mean just because there are things that are worse in the world doesn't mean that that original thing, isn't that. Okay. So another thing that they talk about a lot is how body positivity hates fat men. And so the argument is, if a man were to post a picture of himself with his shirt off, saying all bellies are beautiful, then body positive If women would attack him and laugh at him, because that's what body positivity is about. Now, it is a good argument to say that we only have, there's a lot of women in body positivity, like body positivity is like 99% women, right? That is a valid argument and, and we should be representing all genders.

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And so but but but, but people who subscribe to body positivity or fat positivity aren't like, oh, I can't wait for some stupid man to post a picture saying that he likes his fat belly because I'm gonna fucking rip him to shreds. That stupid motherfucker. How dare he do that? Because he's really fucking ugly. And so the premise is that what their argument is, is that it's only okay in they think that body positivity is only okay to celebrate women. Whereas women are judging men's bodies, women in the body positive community are judging men's bodies the same way as society is, but even more aggressively. So. So this argument is if the video critic said if he were to post a picture of his tummy, women in the body positive community circles would laugh at him. But if he was a woman, then he would be classed as powerful and beautiful. That's a quote. And then he says, I'm tired of society, all these movements boiled down to the phrase.

So this is actually a quote from someone else. I'm tired of society, all these movements boil down to the race, equality for me, but none for these girls talk about body positivity then laugh when a guy is under five foot eight. Someone else says, women, we are we are body positivity activist men, I'm five, six and have a small d. Also women laughs uncontrollably. So this is not what body positivity as well. Now, this is this is a this is actually a good point. I like this one because some people do. who are new to body positivity or fat acceptance do struggle with unlearning all of this bullshit. And so we need to be outlining this bullshit that says that men need to be x tall, and men need to look like this. And you know, other genders need to do this and our expectations of gender, which is what body positivity is all about is is saying, hey, let's let's not do that, right, let's not do that. But some, some people are still stuck in that. And it's difficult to get out of, and we shouldn't be doing that. And, and I don't think people who have really done the work around fat positivity around learning to love themselves would be doing this. This sounds like someone who is incredibly insecure, who would be laughing at someone who a man who is five, six and has a small penis, that is not okay, that is not okay. Ever. And I you know, I'm not going to say that that never happens to someone who who identifies as a body positive activist or, or someone who is fat, a fat positive activist that they don't

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adhere to beauty standards for men as well. But that's not what it's about. Right? That is not what body positivity is about.

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And you notice how there is all loads of sexism tied in here. All of this is threaded with sexism. Like when women are just gonna laugh at me. I really, I don't the next thing is they say the thing that I hate about body positivity is that they shame thin people. No. Now, here's the thing, though. Here's the thing, though. Again, some people who are new to this thing, I think some people it's not often, but I have seen this, that some people will come into body positive communities and share a post like real men prefer meat, not bones and then saying bones are thin women something like that. And when I see anything like that, then what I see is someone who does not understand the movement, who is trying to get self esteem by being mean to other people and being cruel to other people. Someone who is angry at thin people and is just not that educated in this, this sphere. And so I would never allow any shit like that in any in my in my Facebook group. Because I'm like, What the fuck? Why shaming other people? It is important though to recognize that straight sides people have privilege and straight sides people sometimes a lot of times are the problem when it comes to upholding fatphobia and that is not hating thin people that's that is criticizing society that says that same people are better, and then thin people who don't want to acknowledge their size privilege. So no, body positivity doesn't shame thin people. I guess the we might shame thin people if a thin person was like, I'm thin and being thin is the best thing ever. And fuck all you fat people, we wouldn't shame them for their size, we would shame them for what they were saying. So we don't body positivity isn't about shaming people for their size. X the opposite.

Also, that we hate anyone who loses weight, especially celebrities. So in one video, I saw Lizzo drank a shake. I don't know what the shake was, I presume it's like, I think Lisa didn't Lizzo do it. That's what it was. She did a detox. Okay, so Lisa drink a shake. And this is what the person said, Lisa drank her shake, and all of the body positive community is attacking her saying she is canceled. So here, what we're seeing is the false dilemma slash false dichotomy argument. And so the only two options the person sees is that the body positive community is bad, and attacks Lizzo. And that not being body positive is good, because they believe that your body is your choice. Okay, so what we're seeing here is a false dilemma. So there's two things here. Either you're body positive, and you you hate health, you, you hate all people who go on diets, or you're not body positive, and you support people being healthy. And you believe that if you own your body, then it's your choice what to do with it. That's not the reality. Yes, there are people in the body positive community who get really upset when fat celebs do like diets and things like that, or lose weight. And it's really complex, because, you know, we don't have a lot of fat role models who are happily fat. Now I did a whole episode about so celebs losing weight, or you know, fat people in the public eye losing weight, and how it's problematic to criticize them, it's okay to feel sad and be like, Oh, that's really sad that that person I thought they were, I thought they were body positive, but actually turns out that they're a human, just like the rest of us, and they are still working on their body image issues.

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And they never actually said they were the body positive icon of the world. We gave them that label, because they happen to be fat and in the public eye, and what are the pressures are they going through, we don't actually know. So actually, their body their choice, they can do what they want, because there's none of our fuckin business. So I did a whole video about that. But then also, it's okay to feel sad when if a fat person that you loved has become temporarily not fat. You know, it's totally valid to also feel sad. But it isn't, see how it shades of grey versus black and white thinking like, we just, you know, the idea but what people are saying is body positive people just love it when people are unhealthy. And we just like, be unhealthy and how dare you try and be healthy. You're a piece of shit if you try and become healthy is not true.

So all of those were under the getting confused about what body positivity years, which is a straw man argument. Okay, so when someone says, Well, body positivity is wrong, because you shouldn't say to fat people that they are thin, where you can be like, Oh, that's not what body positivity is about. But body positivity isn't going around telling fat people that they're thin and trying to convince them that they're fat and like what that is what if you want an argument about if you want to argue about the merits of fat positivity or body positivity, let's talk about what it actually means, like the people in all sizes should have equal access This and right and not be discriminated against because of their size. That is it. Like, let's talk about that. And if you believe that, yes, people of all sizes should be discriminated against, then you know, we can talk about that, but it's not. Hey, I think that teenage children should sleep naked with their parents. It's a straw man arguments, because of course, people are gonna say, Well, it probably is inappropriate to be sleeping naked with teenage children. That sounds a bit weird, right? And so everyone can get on the get behind that and be like, yeah, what the fuck these body positive people are so fucking creepy? Well, no, that's not body positivity. So that's the big thing.

Now let's go into the other areas that they talk about. So the big thing here, apart from the straw man arguments is that there is a weight limit to respect. And so a lot of people they come in with that. Coming from a place where they feel they're being reasonable, right, and so they're not being like, anyone who is one pound heavier than me is a bad person and should be off the planet. They're like, well, if someone is is curvy, then that's okay. But when it comes to someone who is who is a super fat person or a medium fat person, then they're, that is just gross. And it makes them feel better to say, you know, yeah, a few curves is fine, because I see the value in that person, as a member of society as a sexual object. But if I don't want to fuck you, then it means that your size is too big, and it's too horrible. And therefore you are a problem. So if I can't consume you, or you know, objectify, you, or society uses you as a cog in the machine, then you are not worthy to me in my eyes. And it's all about the perceived value of the fat person. And if they're very fat, then that person genuinely believes that the value of that person is less than a thinner person. And there are so many systems that play with this, this argument. Human humans being machines, only worthy if they are producing in a way that society says is worthy. It's health ism, it's fatphobia. It's sexism. And the truth is, obviously humans are inherently worthy, full stop. It's also ableism. Like, it's all so so when people are saying, you know, there's a limit to respect as a limit, like this is just too extreme. You know, when someone's someone's like, this much bigger than me, then therefore, like war, they're extreme and, and they must have done something terrible to get to that place. And

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they are someone that I can no longer consume. Therefore, they have no value as a human and they should stop being who they are. Which is bullshit, right? Another thing is thinking that science doesn't apply to them. So they poopoo science that invalidates their stances, rather than having a nuanced view, and they cherry pick data. And like shitty data, they never like I saw a a study that was done on I don't know, some shitty website. You know, I saw someone had written in the the men's bathroom that two out of three fat people eat babies. And so I took a picture of that, and that is a legitimate study. And you're like, what? You saw it written on a bathroom stall? Is it true that two or three people eat babies two or three fat people eat babies? How many people were in this study? Was it peer reviewed? When was it done? Did you control for different factors? But not well? No. It's Science, Science, Science, Science. So yeah, cherry picking data and using really like dodgy sources. And when confronted with data, you know, like the big one like, I think a lot of people in in agreement that diets don't work. I don't think that is that contra controversial anymore. But with these folks, it kind of is because they are like, well, I became thin. They're a previous fat person, which is like the worst type of fat five. Well, I became thin, therefore diets do work. You know. And that goes back to anecdotal evidence.

So another, you know, there's a big and big anecdotal evidence. And if someone is using anecdotal evidence, then it's like a red flag. So here are some of the things that I saw. You don't see old fat people, therefore, you must die before you get old. Or you ever noticed that all the fat positivity people are young. When you're young and fat, you haven't developed the major problems yet? Well, all the fat positivity people are young, because of ageism, because it's easier for younger people to get the spotlight. Because less older people are doing this work. Because of ageism. And, yeah, and so this is anecdotal evidence. And I see it all the time, like on my posts, and I can just go to my Instagram right now. And someone would be like, Well, my dad lost way, one time with this diet, and therefore this diet must work. Okay, well, do we what do we know about your dad? Like, how long has he lost the weight for? Was he ever that weight? Is that his setpoint? Weight? Does he have other things going on? Like? It's just it's anecdotal evidence. The next thing that they talk about is the fact that we have quote, unquote, given up. And so this is presuming that learning to accept your body is super easy. FYI, it's really fucking hard. It's presuming that living in a fat phobic society as a fat phobe is plug in rainbows and fairy tales, and that we walk down the street and people are clapping and cheering, saying, good for you for being fat and accepting yourself. It's the opposite end is the opposite of giving up. It's not giving up? It is. I feel like it's being really curious and inquisitive. And looking at the evidence and the evidence of what's happened in your life. And, and have you been able to get thin? And what did you have to do to get thin? And, you know, the, the reality is that a lot of people have tried everything under the sun.

And now this seems like, they're so dedicated to wanting to feel better in their body, they're now trying this other thing, which is really hard. How easy is it just to say, I'm going to go on a diet and have society be like, good thing, you. Finally you're taking control of your life? Fat is easy, we are able to starve ourselves, no problem we have many times, you know, and depending on your story, like you've done that. And is this a walk in the park? is doing this work really easy? Or is it so fucking hard? Giving up would just be like, You know what, I'm just going to go along with diet culture, and just keep dieting the rest of my life. That to me sounds like giving up.

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Next is appeal to ridicule. So this is mocking or stating that the opponent's position is laughable to deflect from the merits of the opponent's opponent's argument. So one person said, it feels like a cult, with the sole purpose, the purpose of enabling each other and denying reality together. So it's, that is ridiculous, right? Like, look at these ridiculous cult, body positivity people, right? And if they're ridiculous, and if someone's ridiculous, we should ignore that arguments. And then then this same person goes on to say that they have an eating disorder. And so I'm like so it sounds like you're really struggling with this stuff. And it sounds like you could really benefit from learning more about actual fat positivity. Which is a shame, right? Because they think that body positivity and fat positivity is so fucking out there, that they're not looking at it, which is something actually that could really help them if they have an eating disorder. Next, we should have we should, we shouldn't have fat people on magazine covers because it promotes unhealthy lifestyles, and we definitely shouldn't be doing it in the pandemic. All right.

So this is an argument which is kind of slippery slope. Feelings slippery slope, slippery slope. Let's talk Got this and also also correlating causes of death with weight. So, cancer is a high cause of death. And then they say, well, being fat causes cancer, heart disease is a cause of death. And only fat people get heart disease, strokes, well, strokes, that's for fat people straight sides, people don't get strokes. And then in this argument, this this video created using an article from The Daily Mail and the daily amount is a British newspaper, which is absolute garbage, piece of shit trash, right wing bullshit. So using an article from an article from The Daily Mail saying that fat people don't live as long as evidence to support that argument. And so the Daily Mail and it was like a thing from like, 16 years ago, the day mail says fat people don't live as long. That's their evidence to say that fat people are dying, and it's all the fat people's fault fault. And so the argument that if we celebrate fat people, you know, by putting them on magazine covers, then it's a slippery slope, because before long, we know, it'll be seen bad to be healthy. If we put fat people on the cover, we'll start celebrating fat people so bad, so much, that if people want to be healthy, we'll laugh at them. And we'll tell them, it's a bad thing to be healthy, and then everyone would be dying earlier. And so everyone is going to be getting cancer, because we put someone on the cover of a magazine. So that slippery slope, and it's also a circular argument.

So, for example, the Bible is true, therefore everything in it is true. So that's a circular argument. And so we all know that fat is unhealthy, therefore, it's unhealthy to be fat. It is also a hasty generalization. That's another style of argument hasty generalization, which is, everyone knows. Everyone knows. So there's, there's one is a real whammy of picking, you know, putting in lots of different argument types to make up one big ball of, of Nope. Also talking about the fallacy of the single cause, and so this is casual oversimplification. So, this is from Wikipedia, it is assumed that there is one simple cause of an outcome when in reality, it may have been caused by a number of only jointly sufficient of only jointly sufficient cause. So that is, if people get cancer, if people have strokes, if people have heart disease, it's because they were fat. What about the thin people who got those things? No, no, no, no.

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Fat people, they were just the unlucky few 1000 people, it's fat people are people die, people die every year from different things. If they're a thin person, you know, they died from whatever, if they're a fat person, they died from being fat. You know, it's that casual oversimplification versus looking at it and being like, Okay, what else is going on here? Another big thing that they're all about is health as a health. So a quote from someone, I'm okay with any shape or size, as long as they're healthy. This is normalizing quote, unquote, oh, Word, which isn't healthy. Do we want to be Hellfest and an ableist? And presuming that what, you know, the size you are dictates your health? No, no, it's not. It's not it's not it's not something we want to do. And it's not based in in you know, in evidence in it in science in good arguments. It's just Yeah. So just so you've got this, all right. Has body positivity gone too far. The people who are anti body positivity or anti fat acceptance, have some key things that they do to try and dismantle the idea that it's okay to be fat and that fat people should have the same rights and access as any other body size. And the main thing that they do is confused Use what body positivity is, and so they use the straw man argument. And so this is what we're talking about. One guy is talking about how one guy made a video about how some people think it's okay to sleep in bed with their teenage children naked. And he said, This is bad, therefore body positivity is bad, even though this has nothing to do with body positivity. And so that is a straw man argument, saying it's bad to sleep naked with your children, your teenage children, therefore body positivity is bad. Well, that's not what body positivity is. Other arguments is that body positivity is about telling fat people that they're thin. No, that we should, that fat positivity. body positivity hates fat men. It doesn't we love fat people of all genders, that fat positivity, body positivity hates all thin people. We don't, that we think that anyone who loses weight is a piece of shit. That is not what body positivity or fat positivity is about. They also use the argument to moderation which is saying, We shouldn't be absolute, disgusting, horrible human beings to fat people. But we should still tell them, we should instead tell them that they need to lose weight, but do it in a nice way. And so the appeal to moderation is one side says hey, let's be kind to people of all body sizes.

And then the other side is, let's be horrible to people of all body sizes. And they go to the middle appealing to moderation saying, Well, let's not encourage people to be fat. And let's remind them that they're fat. And because they're fat, they're going to die and that they should lose weight. And so that's not really helpful is it? They also use a juicy red herring arguments called fallacy of relative privation, which is also known as appeal to worse problems or not as bad as and so they say, you we shouldn't be so focused on on fat people and giving fat people their rights because there are more important problems in the world. And, of course, there's always more important problems and whatever problem that we're trying to work on. But this is a red herring argument.

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Just because there are other things that are important doesn't mean we shouldn't also focus on the things that are not as important. There is a lot of use of anecdotal evidence to prove science wrong. And so looking at all the science to support fat positivity, slash body positivity, they say, Well, that is not true, because I know one person who lost weight. There's one time my uncle Barry lost 14 pounds the other day, therefore, your science is not valid. That is anecdotal evidence. There is also a lot of the slippery slope fallacy. So if we put fat people on magazine covers, then everyone's just going to think that it's great to be fat, and everyone's going to get fat, and then everyone's going to die within the next five minutes. And so if you put a fat person on the magazine cover, then you're basically killing the whole world. That is a slippery slope fallacy. They also use the hasty generalization fallacy, which is the everyone knows it's unhealthy to be fat everyone knows, which is also tied in with the circular argument, which is, we all know it's fat, fat, fat is unhealthy, therefore, to be fat. Therefore, it is unhealthy to be fat.

And finally fallacy of the single cause, aka casual oversimplification, so assumed b it is assumed that there is one simple cause of an outcome. So if a fat person dies is because they are fat, if that person is ever unhealthy, it's because they are fat. And so that simple, that person has more fat on their body, therefore they are unhealthy, versus looking at the nuance and shades of gray and all of and all of that is sprinkled with fatphobia health ism ableism racism and sexism, all intertwined of all of these different arguments against fat positivity and body positivity. So if someone is arguing with you against these things, a reminder to not let them do the straw man thing which is saying It's bad to be body positive because body positivity hates all men. And you can say, that's not really what body positivity is. If you want to talk about the merits of body positivity, let's talk about what it actually is. Which is saying that marginalized bodies should have the same rights as straight size people that we should treat all body sizes the same and we shouldn't discriminate against people because they have a marginalized body. Let's talk about that. And not all of these other wacky things that you're coming up with. Okay, so I hope that was helpful I had I had fun doing all the research for this one this was well I actually I was thinking about the the research in regards to logical fallacies. But then I thought about the research watching these like in doughnuts, donkeys talking about how they hate fat people, because that people have laser beams out of their eyes and are immuno shooting down birds with their laser beams. Eyes. Yeah, that wasn't as fun but yeah, I hope this was helpful.

And a reminder, if you ever want to work with me, then you can do that in a couple of ways. You can sign up for one on one coaching with me, go to facebook.com forward slash coaching to learn some more and submit an application or you can join first party Academy so you can go and find the waitlist@facebook.com forward slash waitlist and I will see you in the next episode. See you in a while alligator See you in a bit dogshit All right, I got it. Thanks for listening to the episode and if you feel ready to get serious about this work and want to know when the doors open to fears fatti Academy which is my signature program, where I teach all about how to overcome your fat phobic beliefs and learn to love your fat body, then go to first party.com forward slash waitlist again that is first party.com forward slash waitlist to get your name on the waitlist. For when first party Academy my signature program opens