Episode 157 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Unknown Speaker 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 157, Intergenerational food trauma. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Hello, welcome to this episode gas Whoa, we have a guest, a VIP guest. My mum, oh my god. Mommy Welsby is on the show. And yeah. It's kind of strange. No, like, I guess we can call a friend of the show now. We're talking about intergenerational food trauma. And this is something I've been thinking about for a while and thinking about how the Irish Potato Famine could have affected her relatives, and then in turn her and then in turn me if at all, and how, in all of our histories, we've probably got some level of trauma, depending where we're from. And also in a lot of our histories, we have probably varying degrees of privilege. And thinking about that with with my mum, she's got both of her parents are Irish, whereas with me, my dad was English and thinking about how people have that internalized trauma from what's happened with their ancestors.

Unknown Speaker 2:03

And then also thinking about well, what if your ancestors were the oppressors? What if your ancestors were the ones causing the trauma, then do you have internalized privileged privilege and internalized white supremacy internalized colonization? And I know for me, the answer is yes. Wonder resent, I absolutely have internalized white supremacy. And, and also, we're thinking about how the Irish people were greatly traumatized by, I'm going to call it the great starvation or the Great Hunt, hunger, the great starvation, the great hunger, how they were traumatized by that, and they were really, really treated badly by the British. And the British are actually the cause of the starvation. And that's the reason for shifting language away from the potato famine, which is, you know, everyone knows that to the great starvation or the great hunger is because, yes, there was a there was a blight on potatoes. But actually, Ireland at the time was known as the garden of England, the garden of England, Ireland produced a lot of crops, and actually, because England had colonized Ireland, the British just took those crops back to England, and the Irish starved and so those this massive trauma, but then also the Irish went to America, Canada, Australia, and I've often heard that well, Irish were Irish people were enslaved. And this is not not actually true. And comparing some, you know, the Irish experience to other ethnicities and and groups and I think there's there's a lot of differences going on. The Irish were often indentured servants and so indentured servants meant that they had a certain amount of time that they had to be a servant. And then after that, they were free to do whatever right and they probably didn't have a good good go of it as well. And you know, the, the a lot of communities they said, you know, no, no Irish No, no dogs that type of thing. On on places that Irish will not often welcome, but to assimilate and to get closer to whiteness. Irish a lot of Irish would identify with their oppressors and become as white as possible. Irish were not considered white.

Unknown Speaker 5:01

In a lot of people's eyes, this is around the 1800s. And so they then would be incredibly racist. And they will take on those identities and ideals of the white oppressors of British, the colonizers that were in what is now known as America. And, and so and so and so and so. And so what I'm saying here is that it's really complicated, right? Stuff is complicated. And you know, how much trauma could have been passed down to me from the great starvation, and how much violence and white supremacy and colonization and those ideas being a part of my DNA also, and I'm sure that's for a lot of people too. And other people, you know, they they have they know their heritage or is, you know, where their families are from. And even that is a privilege in itself. For people who come from enslaved Africans, we might, you know, there might not be any information available to know who your ancestors were. So just talking about this is a privilege in regards to I'm able to ask my mom and my mom is able to remember and tell me stories. So anyway, long rambling thing of their of, of this stuff is complicated. The Irish were not angels, you know, alongside any white people.

Unknown Speaker 6:39

And also the Irish experienced a ton of trauma. And also, the British were colonizing them and caused a lot of these harms. And also, I'm half British. Soit's kind of interesting to think about. So let's go and start in and we're welcome mummy. And, by the way, I was like, oh, shall I just you know, I call Mummy mummy and Alma M er, which is just name we made up M er, doesn't mean anything. I guess it means C and I in French, but I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna call mummy Mummy. I'm not going to try and impress people by being like, yes, hello mom, or mother or whatever. In Ireland. A lot of people. A lot of adults everywhere. You know, most people call them mums mummy. In case I don't want you to think I'm like some. No, I don't know what you're there. You probably call it maybe you call your mum mummy, or not.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

Yeah, so anyway, let's welcome mummy. Welcome, mummy wells be Sarah McLaughlin to the first fatty podcast. Hi, Mommy.

Unknown Speaker 7:48

Vinnie.

Unknown Speaker 7:52

I'm excited to have you on the show. After I have had Guess how many episodes of my podcast I've had?

Unknown Speaker 8:00

Oh, maybe hundreds. 155.

Unknown Speaker 8:06

Very good. So this is the first time that I've joined. I know. So this will be I think 156. So I'm excited because I I've been thinking about this intergenerational trauma. And we were talking about it because we talk every week on Sunday. And we were talking about it. And I was thinking because obviously you're Irish and I'm half Irish. Daddy was English.

Unknown Speaker 8:32

That how the Potato Famine could have influenced our ancestors, if at all, and therefore influenced us. So just starting off, in case people don't know what the potato famine is, what is the potato famine. Famine happened in 1845 Jade for 1849. And it was because it became a blight on the potatoes. At the Irish day. It was mainly potatoes at that stage. So a million millionaires people died of starvation and another million emigrated to the places like America, Canada, Australia, mostly America. And the ones that have went off on ships was called the record coffin ships because a lot of these people that went off, died on the journey because it would be a long journey. And they were they were suffering from starvation before they went. And so how many people died? And that just over a million people died, and that was a quarter of the population. Right? That was a good, good, good part of I think a third of the population though the data immigrated. And the population has never recovered to this day.The population of 6 million at the time of the famine and took the day today just under 5 million according to figures today it will never recover because most people a lot of areas still still going up for two different countries for work and the potatoes that the potato crops that was successful they went to the British right?

Unknown Speaker 10:24

Well, any any surplus food, the way the famine lasted, and why it ended the budget, the food that was the island has enough food to to feed their own, their own their own people, but the aerosols are transported to the UK. And the only reason that they stop 1940 1849 They stop the transportation of food and that's what stopped the famine. And the British didn't have a potato blight where the Irish did now still taking the Irish food. The British probably has other food after that America supply this was Indian made when things like that. So Ireland was meant meant for it. So of course the potatoes because they had small ponds and potatoes grew quickly and well. And that's how this about and they're delicious. And they're beautiful. And today I wouldn't have a dinner starved or hungry I didn't have a potato and I forgot to mention that we had an issue with with the audio and whatnot. So hopefully that audio is okay for you and you can understand mommy's accent. And you get all of the all of her her Irish goodness. Let's talk about multi generational trauma and its consequences. There is a paper that I'm going to link into the show notes, which is called Exploring Irish multi generational trauma and its healing lessons from the Oglala Lakota Sioux so there's this paper talking about obviously what happens to to Irish folks and and then looking at comparisons about how First Nations communities in North America

Unknown Speaker 12:32

I'm thinking if it's if it's Canada or the US how they have overcome trauma and basically it's it's going back to their heritage and their traditions and things like that. So let's talk about multi generational trauma and its consequences. So the emerging so this is quote quoting from that that paper the emerging definition of multi generational trauma relates to the idea that subsequent generations learn from an art effected by parents, grandparents, and other extended family adults who are traumatized, that is experience that is experienced unexpected or serious harm or death or injury. Experienced example genocide, essay torture, murder. This phenomenon involves learning to experience an intense fear helplessness or horror through viewing another's experience of trauma. It eg anger, depression and alcohol or drug use, and learning to react or act in similar fashion. The terms historical or cultural trauma have also been used to accent the depth and breadth of certain traumatic experiences shared by many example genocidal war. There is also a growing body of evidence that multi generational trauma and its consequences is prevalent in historically oppressed and or colonized people.

Unknown Speaker 14:07

Evidence of multi generational trauma has emerged in studies of multi generate generational Holocaust survivor families, refugee families and families around the world dealing with multi generational effects of genocide, mass killing, and other collective violence. Levine 2001 reports about a number of Holocaust families studies were several recurring themes including chronic and severe depression, disturbance in memory and cognition, feelings of guilt marked by anxiety, anxiety and sleep disturbances. More recently, WIC Beck, a girl found that American Indian parents indicated high levels of anger and depression directly attributed to multi generational trauma historical loss. Indeed stone noted that conceptualize

Unknown Speaker 15:00

As individual problems with historically oppressed, oppressed and or colonized peoples through the multi generational trauma lens is key for helping with successful healing. Something that I have found very, very interesting is finding out something about my great, great grandmother's. So let's talk about that next. So something that you told me the other day, and I was flabbergasted and so just happy and excited was that I have always thought that our family are pretty straight sides. Like there's not really many fat people in our family. And you told me that both your grandparents the the grandmothers were both supersize fat people were both very fat people. The legendary supersize, but the perfect, but But you mentioned very, very fast, right? Yeah, you could call them awesome, or very fast. Yeah, but I don't know about my grandparents. My grandfather's because they had died before I was born. So I don't even have any photographs of them or anything. Yeah. But then I was like, I was like, oh my god, that is so cool to know that my great great grandmother's were were fat and we're fat fat and to know that they had been around close way closer to the famine, and they have survived and their survival.

Unknown Speaker 16:43

Thinking about that, like how much their fatness protected them, whether they were fat during the famine, or their parents are fat or whatever. But that gene for fatness was probably turned on or genes to help their body survive. What do you think? Yeah, there was another gene that I learned about today. So, the gene mutation of the gene to a to Roy is at the core of that changed, that was 85% Of course, Asian white by people have have had this thing wrong with this chain. And the link between that chain and our family is hematoma process. And hematoma. Croesus was an overload. And because people had helped some probably help some of the areas to survive, because having good blood supply carries food to you know, it was good for your breathing and carry food around your body and all the rest. So that was the opposite saving link is called a curse now because of immutable causes, causes so much damage and unless people know how to get it checked out as the name of the quality language, curses, disease, and as I say, a lot of a lot of Irish center family, I'm a carrier, my brother is, has it and he has to get he has to have a split, he has to get blood taken every so often. Otherwise, he's damaged from charlas organs in the body. Yeah. And something that human when I was on that TV show, they did genetic testing on me and I said I didn't want to know what the results and but they before the dot before the doctor had previously said, You've got genes that predisposes you to fatness and then I was like, I don't want to know any more like I didn't want to know that anyway. But anyway. And so I wonder if those genes came from or, or were were true triggered by the potato famine? Like we'll never know. Probably, but then the thought of that of fatness maybe have been a protective factor. Just makes me feel so good. Yeah, the thing is starvation causes causes your metabolism to change. So your metabolism slows down. If you're stabbed, protect your body. Yeah. So maybe that affects your genes overall, eventually.

Unknown Speaker 19:26

Yeah, it changes you. I don't know. I'm not a scientist, really. So I don't know. Yeah. And your body will slow down. And this affects your thyroid system, which is a lot of things that we're all suffering from. Okay, so we want to play a clip here from the from Maeve peoples, who discusses the phenomenon of intergenerational trauma that exists in Ireland today and it's affects dating back to the great starvation of 1845 and there's this is taken from a full documentary so this is a clip that's that's The three minutes long. And the art of proof peaceful revolution on little YouTube has taken this smaller clip from a larger video. And so if that is of interest to you go to the link in the show notes. And you can find the link for this little video. And then for the longer the longer documentary to, to describe trauma as well as we'd look at it being a particular set of reactions to an event or stressors to an event that happens. And then intergenerational trauma is something that transmits across multiple generations, and the psychological impacts of the Holocaust transmit through to first, second and third generations. So they're proving that what happens in one generation can have a cascading effect down through the generations, there's a new field of research called epigenetics, and it's studying what we're made up of. And we're not completely determined by your genes. Emory University in 2013, did a study in relation to mice. So the mice were trained to receive a shock when they smell cherry blossoms, and then three, four generations of mice later who had never been exposed to the experiment, they were also still in fear of the smell of cherry blossom so that while they had no direct contact with the study that still pass through them, that sense of fear. So if we look at the groups of people that are affected by the famine, the main groups are obviously the people who died by starvation and diseases. Next group is people who were left behind who had witnessed the events. And then there's a group of people who emigrated, they had to leave Ireland, they had no option but to go somewhere else. So the people that were left behind, they suffered what quite commonly known as bystander guilt, to people who emigrated to America, Canada, to England, they had to adjust to leaving behind their life in Ireland, there was what was often called an American weight at the time of the famine, when you left Ireland, you didn't get to come back again. So you didn't get to see your family again. So you were leaving everything that you knew behind, and moving to start life in a new country, where you might not have known anyone, and everything was very different for you. We tend to call what happened a famine. In reality, it wasn't a famine, there was plenty of food in Ireland, the British government kept records of the food that was exported every day shiploads of food, I think in terms of dealing with what happened at the famine, it's really important to reframe it to tell a different narrative around it, because calling it a famine isn't the actual truth of what happened. different titles have been given to it and gotten more of the great hunger, but other people have different opinions.

Unknown Speaker 22:20

So I think in terms of healing and developing and moving on from what happened, it's important to open up a discussion about what we should actually call what happened to the people, rather than calling it generally speaking, very common responses to trauma can be things like substance abuse, increased mental health issues, and increased rates of suicide. So that's very generally speaking, and it's across the board. Yeah. So if we look at the rest of the EU, Ireland has comparatively higher rates for substance abuse, domestic violence and child abuse. We can possibly conclude from this, that it's an effect of intergenerational trauma through the years, a lot of the research has been correlated by women called El Danieli. In relation to the Holocaust. She has conducted many studies and has put a lot of findings together which we now work from in relation to intergenerational transmission of trauma. There's a quote from her from 1998. And when she talks about multi generational transmission of trauma is an integral part of human history, transmitted in words, writing, body language, and even in silence. It is as old as mankind, it has been thought of alluded to written about unexamined in both oral and written histories in all societies, cultures, and religions. A lot of the research that we have based on intergenerational trauma is based on Holocaust research that started in sort of the 70s. But now we have more up to date research, and that's coming from First Nations in America and also from Aboriginals in Australia.

Unknown Speaker 23:48

So, so we had that, like, potentially, we don't really know, but we're speculating, and it's kind of fun to speculate that maybe fatness was a protective force genetically in our family. And then I wonder as well, like, there, there may be the good things, maybe, you know, the too much iron is maybe not a good thing nowadays. But what about the trauma? What about the the obviously going through a famine where a quarter of the population was gone? was obviously harrowing. And then not only that, psychologically thinking about what that does to our bodies and lessons that we've learned about food. So what do you think about that stuff? Well, the trauma of people having to emigrate as never seen them again, it was like a death in the family first there. So if you imagine our family, my grandmother's sister, sisters and brothers that went to America and never came back. That was a terrible trauma first their trauma for them, never to get back and see they're there. siblings again, the parents or whatever?

Unknown Speaker 25:03

And then what about? What about the trauma of not having enough food?

Unknown Speaker 25:09

Well, yeah, because I think people's probably probably, maybe hit food or are very careful or, you know, mature that they had enough to eat and for whatever way they could find food, they had to go to college or work out or modalities to go have to go average. We were young, or to England, in between, you know, working in the farm here, because we have a small farm. And that campus kept money coming in coming in at different times, but not enough to keep us going. So to keep food on the table, you would have to go to England, or Scotland a couple of times a year, leave mom having to care for everybody. And last to keep things rolling in the farm, even though we're very small.

Unknown Speaker 26:05

And I wonder about like, you know, how we would pick dolls. And you would teach us about picking dosa adults is seaweed that grows on the rocks in in Ireland. And it's we think it's delicious. People who have not grown up eating it, don't think it's delicious. In fact, they think it's just disgusting. We love it. But I wonder if that foraging of dolls, which is, I mean, it seems to be a bit of a strange thing to eat, like, but I don't know, maybe not like maybe everyone did it? Or do you think that that was a result of the famine, or we'll see the soldier in the family that they weren't able to do ended up because they're too weak, because Ireland around for where you were, there would have been fishing later dad and that used to go fishing, but the time of the family to quit and go fishing because they're too weak to growth in the seas to fish. And they were too weak to pick notes.

Unknown Speaker 27:02

Well, the dusts would say, only a certain time and you get couldn't work and get gas and you know, different times, the summer time for a multitude, you'd be able to get the dots and get links and different different other things that you can get in close to them, but at the time of the famine, because that was one of the things that came up on the internet. Why didn't the Irish fish because there was loads of fish in the sea? said there were there were two weeks of fish. Yeah, yeah. And, and you think you're, you're a pathetic, apathetic and you know, you have no energy and no willpower to do anything and just reserving all your strength. So common responses to trauma could be substance use increased mental health issues and increased rates of suicide. Compared to the rest of the EU, Ireland has high rates of domestic abuse, child abuse, and high rates of violence, we can possibly conclude that this is an effect of intergenerational trauma. That is a quote from the video that we played earlier. It's really interesting to think about, even though Ireland is is a very rich company country now. It's a very rich country, and does well in regards to health care and life expectancy and things like that. But still, we have high rates compared to the rest of Europe, for mental health, substance use, suicide, domestic abuse, child abuse and violence. There is a book that talks about this stuff and it's called it didn't start with you by Mark woollen Wolin.

Unknown Speaker 29:01

And I am going to read a little section here for you. So this is a summary written by Alyssa Burnett. Again, link in the show notes. And this section here is called trauma and genetics. If you have a fraught relationship with your parents or grandparents inherited trauma might be one possible explanation. That's because the impact of trauma isn't limited to our emotional connection with our families. It can affect our biology as well. To look at an example of how this functions in practical application, let's consider a study conducted by psychiatrist Rachel Yehuda, the head of the division of traumatic stress studies at New York Mount Sinai Medical Center, Dr. Yoo hoo that examined a sample group of 38 women who were pregnant during the attack on 911 with a particular focus on those who are working in the Trade Center

Unknown Speaker 30:00

At the time, she was especially interested in the case of those who developed PTSD as a result of the attack, and her study followed these women through their pregnancies until they gave birth. To develop her results. Yehudah took saliva samples from the women who struggled with PTSD, and then took samples from their babies as well. They then analyzed the levels of the cortisol hormone president in present in these samples, and found that both the mother and babies displayed levels of cortisol that were significantly lower than average. If you're not familiar with what cortisol does and why it's significant. The simple answer is that cortisol is a stress hormone is job is to regulate our emotional responses to stressful events. In the early stages of a traumatic event, your cortisol levels might skyrocket as your body attempts to process and come to grips with this new stimuli. But after prolonged exposure to trauma, these levels actually plummet for survivors who develop PTSD.

Unknown Speaker 31:03

This is the curious response because psychiatrists and neuroscientists who track cortisol levels in trauma survivors typically only see these drops when the trauma has been resolved, and the patient has been successfully treated. But after us further study, Dr. Houda, and her team learned that these permanent levels of low cortisol develop when someone doesn't have enough cortisol at the time of the traumatic impact, to regulate their fight or flight response. In short, that means that what should happen is that we experienced traumatic stimuli. Our fight or flight response kicks in alongside with our cortisol, and then we calm down as our body seeks to normalize what just happened and help us return to a stable state. But if you don't have enough cortisol to begin with that initial surge of the hormone may overwhelm us and cause us to drop dangerously low. This in turn can create or intensify triggers a form of psychological stimuli that react reactivates a survivor's trauma. Although these triggers don't have to be inherently threatening, they are intrinsically connected to a traumatic memory and being triggered can cause survivors to relive their trauma all over again or be overwhelmed by intrusive thoughts. And after examining the impact of cortisol levels, traumatic memories and triggers, psychiatrists, like your houden biologists like Brian Lipton was of Stanford University can affirm that trauma, quote, biologically alters the genetic expression of offspring.

Unknown Speaker 32:43

When read in conjunction with you heard a story on the childhood, that of the children of mothers with PTSD, we can conclude without a doubt that trauma is inherited by virtue of what Yehuda calls, quote, intergenerational transmission. So in short, if your mother experienced a significant trauma while pregnant, you may have literally inherited genetic trauma. And as a result, you might be predisposed to fear, nervousness or anxiety. You might struggle with nameless with a nameless and seemingly sauceless sense of dread that confuses you. And likewise, if your grandparents or even great grandparents suffered trauma of their own, such as surviving the Holocaust, their own unresolved trauma can be passed through generations by both emotional and genetic transmission some something that I that this makes me think about is because I my dad used alcoholand he my dad was who I think had a lot of unmedicated and an on understood conditions he had great levels of anxiety he found it very hard to function in a day to day in day to day life. very stressed. Very kind of couldn't handle noise.

Unknown Speaker 34:23

As I get older, I feel like I understand hit and like too much noise and lights and stuff. It's very difficult for me as well. So we don't don't We don't know what was happening with my dad, but he was he didn't have the resources he needed to, to live and to thrive he was hanging on precariously. And so my mum had my brother and sister and then that was meant to be it and then she got pregnant with me. And my dad was like, I can't handle another child. So You need to have an abortion and my mom being Catholic was like no.

Unknown Speaker 35:07

And so my dad said, If you don't have an abortion, then I will kill myself. And so my mom said no. And so my dad took an overdose. The same time my mum fell down the stairs, broke her coccyx, which is your tailbone. And my mum, not at the same time that my dad had had had attempted suicide, she was a different day, you know, in a pregnancy, I mean, and, so she didn't have money from him coming in because he had stopped working due to his substance use. He had then attempted suicide he wasn't he wasn't successful, but I think it was kind of him trying to say I'm so overwhelmed. I can't handle this. Obviously, it was really problematic that he did that to my mum. And, and then my mum having having to look after the house having to look after you get two young kids not having enough money and breaking her tailbone.

Unknown Speaker 36:12

What levels of stress was my mum under? And how did that affect me, I mean, as a child, I remember write in my diary that I will 100% suffer with depression when I'm older, because I think I was depressed as a kid. But I didn't understand how to how to talk about it. But I definitely was a very anxious child various getting I tell people this, I used to be so shy and stuff. And people are like, Why? Because I'm so different now. But I was absolutely the opposite. And I wonder how much of that was learned from my mum, because she was, you know, very, very shy and struggle talking to people and you know, incredible, incredible, massive amounts of stress and anxiety and all that type of stuff. And how much it was that that learnt from my mum, and then how much was inherited anxiety and trauma and depression and all that type of stuff? Who knows? Or maybe it was just totally out of left field. And it had nothing to do with my mom. And it had nothing to do with my dad. Because obviously then my dad had all those other influences, but then we're thinking about how mother and baby how that that link there is, it's really interesting and, and also like, you know, if you are pregnant, or have had children, and you were stressed at the time and thinking, Oh, God, I fucked up my kid, like, you know, everyone fucks up their kids, no one is going to be perfect. And also, these things, you know, the predisposition to these things and is interesting to think about that it doesn't necessarily mean that the child's life is going to be terrible. It might mean that there's more barriers, like you think like me, with me, I've had I have had a number of barriers through my life. But also I've had a number of of areas of privilege, for example, being white.

Unknown Speaker 38:11

Being in Canada, being able to access therapy, things like that, right. And so, it my mum going through that and me going through stuff in my kit in my childhood didn't mean that i Oh, my life was automatically, you know, terrible fucked up whatever. It happened to be that whatever, luck, you know, some other genetics that made me resilient and unearned privileges like my skin color meant that I am able to thrive now. Okay, so let's talk about poverty and food insecurity. Poverty, moral failure is married because circumstances because for me lived in Peterborough, we live from week to week or day to day. So for the listeners, Peterborough is the place that I grew up and where we lived for where we brought me brought the family property there.

Unknown Speaker 39:21

My dad, my dad has a firm and they work really hard and he grew. It grew a variety of crops and we had some we had code and we had milk and butter and mum made the bread and you know we had a variety of things so I never felt when I was growing up even though dad had to go away to pay to do extra work and we probably don't need we had to work a wee bit harder. We as children, we had to go to market in the fields. But we weren't I don't ever remember being hungry. We may not have a variety of food. We all had we had put soda even though we didn't ever

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Right, if but growing up and living in poverty and Peterborough, you know, from day to day, I used to have to sit there at the beginning of the month and mark out how much money I would have leftover for food after paying the bills. And if there's very little, yeah, yeah. And then I think any, any problem or raising the food probably came from that. But I experienced at home growing up so Feeding America talks about the child hunger and development. So this is what they say about it for children. Food Insecurity is particularly devastating, not having enough healthy food can be can have serious implications for a child physical and mental health, academic achievement and future. Economic prosperity knows how they put healthy food in there. I mean, it can be any food, food and not having enough food. But I guess you know, someone is, is malnourished, can be malnourished and also have food. Anyway, research shows an association between food insecurity and delayed development in young children risk of chronic illnesses like asthma and anemia. Hello, that's me. And behavioral problems like hyperactivity, anxiety and aggression in school aged children.

Unknown Speaker 41:23

When I was looking at this, like the the outcomes of food insecurity on children, the number one thing that came up with a lot of people was a lot of resources said that fatness they use the O word was an outcome and a negative outcome they were they were positioning it as a negative outcome. And, and I wonder if that is a negative outcome? Previously, I would have said, Yeah, because I hated being fat, obviously. But was, was my fatness. A result of food insecurity. And also my mum saying, you know, don't get fat, don't eat too much whatever. Would I have been a straight size person if we had enough food, but then again, even if we did have enough food, then you know, my mum would still ever had that message. Don't be too fat, don't eat too much.

Unknown Speaker 42:30

Or maybe that was that would be enough, you know, that would be enough for her to have me to have been straight sized. Who knows, you know, the rest of my siblings are, are straight sized. So, I mean, it's easy to all these thought experiments. And when I'm thinking about food insecurity, I am thinking about manufactured food insecurity for other people. So not everyone is going to have the same experience as I did. And some people are gonna have, you know, obviously a lot worse experience than I did. But I think about in diet culture in fat phobia, how many people have grown up without access to food, even if their cupboards were stocked full? I'm thinking about the parents who put their kids on diets or parents who locked up food who wouldn't let their kids have food? And that was that similar or even worse than what I went through, because if the cupboards were stocked full, and my mum said, you can't have the food, what type of mindfuck would that be?

Unknown Speaker 43:43

You know, she'd you know, there was that sprinkling of you can't have the food. But when the food came in the house, we would be eating it right. Imagine if the food came into the house and it was like no, you can't have it. That would be a mindfuck and I bet you a lot of people listening have had experiences like that where their parents have told them what they can and can't eat in a in a diety fatphobia type of way. So I wonder how that has affected people. Because that must be a really bright, a big breakdown of trust, especially if you are hungry. Okay, so going back to that paper, multi generational trauma mechanisms. Okay, so quote, especially related to Seminole cataclysmic traumatic events, example genocide, each successive generation may experience and act out their own trauma example poverty, alcohol use domestic violence, rural isolation, and this is from stone 2003. Thus, each successive generation of new parents can inadvertently re traumatize their children. Ongoing oppression and poverty, increased vulnerability to trauma yet much degeneration of drug and alcohol use and other chronic mental health problems may persist regardless of socio economic level stone and Levine discussed the long term effects of trauma as systemic and multigenerational with continued themes of exaggerated and conflicted feelings of anxiety, panic, and depression in subsequent generations. Both authors authors noted that root trauma and retraumatization reaches across several general several generations. In a recent study with back a owl found that such trauma can be found at several generations after seminal traumatic events, example traumatized American Indians, Indians referencing the devastating effects of the 1819 Wounded Knee Massacre on their families 110 years later.

Unknown Speaker 45:52

Yeah, and with with a colonization of of Ireland, that trauma is raw. It is raw, if you've been to Ireland into the into the north at the north of Ireland and also Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK because that area is still colonized. The if you know anything about the the troubles, which is the the Catholics and Protestants, which is what we're, we'd seen as, you know, Catholics against the Protestants, but it's fueled by Protestants, not all this is, you know, the general sweeping idea the Protestants aligning with colonizers, the British and wanting them to stay and the Catholics saying, No, this is our Ireland, they need to leave, they still haven't left. I was brought up Catholic, as one of Catholic and so you can see where my bias stands.

Unknown Speaker 47:03

But many Irish say we want you hear the British made Ireland better. My opinion is they didn't, there might have been some, you know, some some benefits, but I mean, you know, it's fucked up and tire gin multiple generations of people, even to the point where my talking to Irish friends, and they wouldn't date outside their religion. So, you know, you wouldn't marry a Protestant girl, if you're brought up Catholic. They will have schools which are Catholic schools and Protestant schools. They'll have towns that are Protestant and Catholic towns, you can go through and you'll see towns that were the sidewalks the pavements, the curbs are painted in red, white and blue, which is for for British, and others where it's green, white and gold for Ireland. And so whole areas and and this is not all of Ireland, in the north is where it's the most, most dramatic, you'll see houses painted with, you know, slogans for the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, which is a terrorist organization, which was on the Catholic side of things.

Unknown Speaker 48:31

So this is, this is raw, and, you know, we're in peacetime, but still, it's there. And this is stemming back from the British colonizing Ireland. So let's talk about body image. So before we start this, this clip, before, just before, I'm not playing it, my mum was telling me the story about how I said, you know, did your parents ever tell you to lose weight or anything? Or say that fatness was bad and one of her memories, one of her core memories was her dad telling his niece, my mom's cousin, that she should go on a diet. So she was visiting. And apparently my granddad thought that her body was too big. And she should go on a diet. And she did. So that's what we were just talking about. Was that the first exposure you think that you had to that anti fat rhetoric? I don't think so. Because as it is today, I was thinking about law school. And most a year they used to sports, and I was coming for whatever race I was in. They came in last. And I remember at first because I was fast that I wasn't able to run as fast as I wouldn't have been very old at that stage. But I don't think anybody made a big thing about it, but I felt bad about it. Yeah, yeah. And that's interesting. You said like, oh, it's because I'm, I was fat that I came last versus Maybe I wasn't the most talented runner.

Unknown Speaker 50:04

Well, no. Say we weren't we didn't practice was something that just done once a year, and there was no practice or anything. Yeah, but feeling bad about it, because you know, everybody wants to win or no, that's terrible. Yeah, that would be a terrible experience as a young person. And then this is the thing that I found really interesting that I'm saying before is that there was a big shift from when, before you had television. And after you had access to television, you didn't have television at home. But some of the more results neighbors, relatives of neighbor, I had television show, we used to go and watch Top of the Pops and see all the skinny people in all this. So I think that influence is a great too. Yeah, we didn't have magazines were living out in the country. And there is no such thing as magazines. We don't need paper. We've got a farmers journal. And there was no calories and sheep.

Unknown Speaker 51:09

Exactly. And so after being exposed to the Top of the Pops and all of the thin, thin people of that, would that be the 60s in the 70s? That was the early 60s Because I when I was even working with England in the late 60s. Okay. And then. So then it's mid 70s. And so then what was your response? You met you, you decided that you were going to try and become thin? Yeah, I remember. Probably even started maybe taking notice of the opposite sex and wanting to be looking good. A member a member having maybe a big feed of potatoes and then going out and making myself sick out of the harem. Yeah, I did it a few times. I don't remember doing it for very long, maybe two or three times.

Unknown Speaker 52:03

And that stopped because it's not a nice thing to do. So once at once, I want to I think I probably did it a few times in England when I was in Peterborough because I used to go to Slimming classes to put swimming classes. And if we hadn't been there yourself, and if you haven't lost any weight, you'd be thinking oh gosh, better research sexual. Less weight on the scale. So wow, really? I've done that a few times. And where you build where you binge eating as well?

Unknown Speaker 52:36

Probably I don't know probably I don't know maybe I probably would have done but I never thought it would been dude. Yeah, yeah. And and what did you learn when so you went to England to learn when you went and you studied nursing? What did you learn from another nurse? The technique?

Unknown Speaker 52:54

Oh, yeah. Because you know, this was all about body image really and while I'm sick you know you can lose weight if you if you purge yourself so I wouldn't remember going into the chemists and getting this bad this chapter type stuff that that would probably help to purge you. And I've said to the chemists person asked for my grandmother. The grandmother wasn't even sure they knew very well and rotten because most older people would get a quarter shopping similar from their cheat page if the FDA needed it if they're constipated, and so it was like a laxative. Okay, so going back to the paper section here on Irish multi generational trauma. Quote, research to date clearly underscores that survivors of massive trauma and their families are not a homogenous group of vulnerable dysfunctional individuals. Instead, they display a wide range of coping strategies. It is with this provoked proviso that Irish historian James Lee asserted that many current mental health problems in Irish society may be best understood in the similar industry in the context of what he calls historical wounding. Similarly, the Irish researcher Milan noted that in Irish society, there are psychological patterns inherited from colonization, which may be transmitted through family dynamics, even while rapid social trend change is occurring.

Unknown Speaker 54:29

Lee and Mon proposed that centuries of English oppression and colonized Connell colonialism relied on mechanisms of tight control which included fiscal coercion, sexual exploitation, economic expert to exploit exploitation, political exclusion and control of ideology and culture. They postulated that for many individuals and families in post colonial Irish society today the

Unknown Speaker 55:00

These mechanisms have left a deep psychological legacy of trauma and its consequences of dependency fear, ambivalence towards the colonizer, suppression of anger and rage, a sense of inferiority self hatred, loss of identity, horizontal violence and vulnerability to psychological distress distress specific, traumatizing experience for the Irish include systematically treated as an quote, inferior race by the oppressing culture British subjection to starvation. The famine even while vast quantities of food were being exported, indiscriminate killings, land grabs religious persecution, language and music censorship and educational oppression. Indeed, many Irish today continue to reference their disdain of past British actions. They especially referenced the wholesale suffering inflicted by the black and tans and that the black and tans was a name for the special auxiliaries that the British recruited to suppress suppress Irish independence in the 20th century. So the bracken towns because the uniform was black and tan, so the rock and dance auxilary is that British, the British recruited to suppress Irish independence in the early 20th century, and the systematic suppression and violence of indigenous Irish rights in the northern six counties throughout the 20th century. Although multi generational trauma has not been specifically studied with the Irish several Irish studies have indicated associated alcohol related research supports at least tangentially multi generational trauma as substance use is strongly correlated with trauma.

Unknown Speaker 56:47

While countries such as the US have recently declined by more than 1% in alcohol consumption over the last 10 years, Ireland has increased by more than 39%. In fact, the Republic of Ireland has written risen to fifth place in the World Health Organization's global rankings for alcohol consumption. Other reasons, studies have consistently indicated higher alcohol use by Irish than other ethnic groups. Indeed, the Irish are the only ethnic group in the United States that has not adapted to the US drinking norms after several generations instead keeping to higher Irish drinking norms. So here it's saying that even the people who left Ireland and went to

Unknown Speaker 57:40

Turtle Island America, they are using alcohol even though they are living in America following what their ancestors and their current family or you know, Kin in Ireland are doing. And that common thread is back to the great hunger British colonization. Binge drinking is also dramatically on the rise in Ireland, especially among young women. In terms of multi generational transmission. The Irish researchers Morgan and group indicated that in Ireland, but parental modeling is quite strong in predicting abusive drinking behavior. And as an illustrative example quoted an old Irish proverb. The person who drinks is often lucky, while the non drinker is often unfortunate.

Unknown Speaker 58:34

Perhaps further indicating the presence of multigenerational trauma Ireland was higher comparative rates of depression, Ireland has higher comparative rates of depression, domestic violence, violence, post traumatic stress, and child abuse as compared to other countries in the EU. So let's bring it forward to our generation. What's going on with us and closer to today's timeline and and so then coming to like to me in my generation then, so you as a parent were coming from someone who had at times binge ate maybe purged a number of times thought that your body was too big and that your body was was unattractive? And so that was where you're at when when I was young and when I was growing up, right? That's how you felt about yourself.

Unknown Speaker 59:27

Yeah, I didn't see that. I never felt good about my body after two recent years. You taught me different to love my body. So you know ya know. The thing is, I'm worried about my body this how well I think I don't care what but if anybody doesn't like how I look, that's their problem. Not my problem. Yeah, I wish that you could have had that younger in your life as well. Money.

Unknown Speaker 59:54

Yeah, we should do too because many wasted hours. Worried about how you look? You wouldn't put something on you put on about 10 different things, and you still weren't happy about what you will. Yeah. So how do you think that that affected your children? Probably? Not that. I was probably saying things probably too much or you know, maybe maybe sent to you maybe a philosophy bit of weight. You know, I can't remember saying these things, but I probably did. Maybe if you lost weight, maybe thing for future better or something? I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:35

So just for the viewers, mummy has had a brain injury, she had a, an accident, a car accident. And so she struggles with with memory. And so there's a lot of things that that mummy can't remember. And there's lots of things that you can remember, which is great. So if there's anything that you're like, I can't remember. That's what's going on. And so, when did you notice? Or did you notice that I was struggling with my my body or my or food?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:09

No, I never I never realized is you did do you know, I do know that you went to Slimming club and you seem to be happy about losing weight, but I didn't know the ins and outs of it at the time. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:22

And I've probably said it, you know, especially hear from people who haven't seen you for a while or they say You look wonderful. You've lost weight. So maybe the first thing I'll say to you is weight and this is the topic of losing weight and quite yet and you know, backdate it on and things like that. Yeah, that is it. That's the first thing people say is, You look well, and I'm always I always kind of like off? I don't like that you look? Well, that is because to me, I hear you. I'm judging your weight. You know, and I remember when I came back to Ireland, after losing, I'd know what it was a lot of weight on Weight Watchers and coming back and feeling like feeling like the triumphant, you know, protocol, protocol. child had returned. Look at this person now is it success because they're thin. And I felt so proud. And then I felt so ashamed the next time coming back, because I put all the weight back on, obviously, because that's what happens.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:24

But it's interesting how you never you never noticed that I didn't like my body. Up until that point, and I was an adult that I think probably probably we're very good at hiding what's going on within? You know, yeah, probably not. Nobody ever knew that. I think I might have mentioned to one of my siblings, about me being sick at one time, because they were going through a similar sort of thing. And nurses say we've seen it, but not to be doing that. Not the opposite rest of them have never have never ever spoke about it. Yeah. And and it's interesting, because outside of your kind of disordered eating behaviors, those eating disorders in the family, and there's eating disorders amongst your children, and I think about like the genetic factor of being predisposed. And I found, you know, when when you were talking about how you were your eating disorder behaviors, I was I'd never known that you've done those things. And I was like, Wow, that's so interesting that, you know, I had my eating disorder, experiences and behaviors. And even though I never knew about you, it was like, it was like, Oh, my, almost written in my, in my, my blood almost to that I'd be predisposed to that. And then I would act out binge eating, and then eventually, a typical anorexia and and it's something that I think about a lot is the fact that you mentioned that we lived in poverty and the fact that you know, you were budgeting to see if you could buy food at the end of the month and all that type of stuff that, that that juxtaposition between not having enough food due to poverty. And what you mentioned before saying maybe don't eat too much. And so that really like push and pull of desperately wanting food because we didn't have it and also desperately wanting food because we were told to maybe not eat so much.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:40

Because there was only X amount of to keep you going every day. Go to work. Say I work six days, six days a week. I didn't work full time in the job, but I work 30 years. And then I had three other cleaning jobs and the cleaning jobs kept some food Yeah, Let's just say, and if there was anything, anything needed to buy, of course, most of our most of your clothes or have returned from your cousin's. And then I would have to wait to the very end. You said a new school year and had to buy a new uniform. I had to wait for the children's allowance to come in. And it was there was hardly anything left in the shops today. And they used to have to go to the legs that pose threat just about your uniforms, and pretend to go somewhere else. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was it was tough. It was tough.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:36

I don't know. That's, that's like a big source of trauma. And now you you're not you don't live in poverty. Now. You're middle class.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:48

I don't live in any property. I've got plenty. And I've got a conversion, you know, 2018. And they've got money in the bank, but are still very careful. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't waste a crumb. No, and we joke about it. But Mommy likes to make soup from leftover vegetables and stuff. And one day, I caught her going through the pile of stuff that was going out into like, into the fire or out outside, you know, the organic stuff. And I'd put out some wilted salad. And you were picking through it and putting the salad into the soup. And I was like, oh god, that's disgusting. And you're like, why is fine. I don't see the potatoes and I don't take the skins off. Don't protect the skins off the carriage because that's where all the goodness is. And you probably don't want to waste it Do you know, I don't want to waste it and I hate you know, I have to hold myself back. My grandchildren come and then have to leave stuff and they don't want anymore. I have to try and run and bear it and put it in the bin because I don't want to cause them to have any eating issues. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:06

Do you think that you know what you did before? Like when when we were younger caused us to have eating issues? I don't know. As to saying it's always finished your plate. But I think probably the most thing is there wasn't a lot leftover because there wasn't a lot of food there was only enough food for every day.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:32

Yeah. And they probably needed that and maybe more maybe that was the issue that there wasn't I'm always delighted with our friend Jane major seven for Tier cake or whatever. There's a few times she she did dinner enough so that that was a big relief to give that because I pray there was no soup there was no like no with soup kitchens and places people golf. Food places for the bank got food for you know, say there wasn't any of that.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:13

We got we got think stuff make sure you're very proud. You don't like you've got a lot simpler charts to match with. Sometimes you'd have the shorter than big companies would give them some leftover clothes, but we still had to pay for them. We didn't get them for free. And then as I said, we didn't always get the first choice people running, of course, the first choice, but we got it. That's the only time you ever bought anything that was cheaper than you get in a shop but you still have to pay for. Yeah, remember, there's just there's a button. We've got a few packets of butter at one time, but I don't remember anything else.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:55

Yeah, I'm thinking about it like now I'm like, wow, you for a family of four there was four of us and then you and then if daddy was there beforehand before you got divorce six people and Daddy wasn't working because he had substance use disorder. And he was using his money on on on alcohol and and so as your wage as a kind of part time cleaner working six days a week to feed six people, five people. It is a tremendous amount of food that you would have to find and being in poverty to like,

Unknown Speaker 1:09:33

Yeah, remember the place of work the shop of work because somebody used to. There's a company that used to come in with the sandwiches and after a couple of days, they would have to be thrown out. The lady used to rescue them and take them home so they're going to as backups for lunch. They'll be out of date. We just Yeah, I don't remember that.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:58

I remember always being here. Happy with our packets apart from when you gave us wagon wheels because wagon wheels were disgusting. Their property cheap, you know? Yeah, or penguin bars or whatever. But yeah, they're probably cute. This one skipped. I remember. It's just me, I used to be guilty about them. But there have been done that I used to be guilty of protecting because the boss knew I was taken low be probably in trouble. But as I say, I used to I used to other colleagues at work, they used to say we'll take them. And they used to, especially for George Packer. He's unbelievable, really that you would get in trouble for taking sandwiches that were thrown out for your hungry children.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:47

I mean, somebody maybe because maybe they're sort of you took that maybe you're still other things. Maybe they could have paid you a fair wage that you wouldn't have to go through that. Probably maybe the opposite of it's probably paid for preschool and half the time. But I remember going into the supermarket and seeing all these people were putting trolleys maybe having to look and look at things and put them back there. And because your goodness, I used to think oh, god you should feel so bad. Yeah. Well, um, like for me, I feel like the the two messages of we don't have enough money to buy food. So there's not enough food. And also, don't eat too much food because we you don't want to be fat and eat less food so that you can get thin all of those messages were really confusing for me. And I think maybe if we had more money, and also maybe if, for by some miracle, you were told that your body was amazing or something, then there might have been different outcomes for us. So let's take take a look at the last quote here from the paper the family famine, legacy.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:12

Quote, there is a paucity of sociological and psychological studies supporting or refuting the psychic efforts of the Irish famine or other traumatic events in Irish history. However, several influential and astute observers of Irish culture believes such a legacy exists, especially related to the famine. CoolMax, a great OG grader Ireland's premier economic historian asserted that quote, the Irish famine was much more murderous relatively speaking than most historical and most modern famines, that is lasted long beyond when the most, most general accounts are used to end it, and that its ravages reached all countries, classes and creeds its enduring implant pact is reflected in a continued to desert desire in Ireland to remember those things we ourselves never knew. The famous Irish American writer Frank McCourt from Limerick in referencing, famine, trauma indicated that quote, in the racial, unconscious of the Irish, there must be some demon tormenting us over food, and, quote, We are expected to suffer retroactively. We were told then, and we know it now the famine was the worst thing to ever happen to the Irish race. Oh, the psychological effects of hunger, how it breaks you how it hinders any kind of emotional development. Tom Thomas Conneely the Irish Australian writer follows a similar theme in his book, The great shame, asserting that the Irish famine has quote, produced in the Irish themselves a certain amount of that survival shame, which one encounters also in certain survivors of the Holocaust, the irrational but sharp shame of still standing when so many felt the shame of having been rendered less than human by cataclysm. Whelan supported these observations and noted that the key to such multi generational trauma is to be is to be to move away from an individual's memory that internalizes past traumas, as depression's to a more culturally neighboring form, which embraces cultural practices and pride. Such a transformation can be aided by development of cultural identity and participation in cultural practices. One traumatize indigenous group that is answering some of these questions is the Oglala Lakota Sioux people.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:53

And so then that go then it goes into what the SU are doing and how they are healing there. trauma for from the colonization of Turtle Island and the murder and, you know, everything that that happened to them. And one thing I want to point out is that Ireland was criminalized by the British, and then we had the great starvation, which happened for a handful of years and, and then things started to get better. It wasn't great. And it was only until recent memory that things have really boomed in, in Ireland and people are are recovering in a way where there is food security. But and that came from a starvation that happened a number of years. What are the consequences? And other people who are much smarter than me can can answer this question to have answered this question. And to people who were enslaved enslaved Africans, that it wasn't just a few years for them, it was multi generations experiencing, not just starvation, but a whole host of violently traumatic experiences. And so that went on for generations. So it wasn't, you know, for years, it was that person's whole life, then their child's whole life, then their great grandchild whole life, and on and on. And so I really want to think about that. And, you know, think about how it's important to I think it's important to to honor the traumas that Irish folks have gone through and also think about the traumas that are still prevalent in

Unknown Speaker 1:17:09

North American culture and around the world. And all of it both of those, as an example stemmed from white supremacy stemmed from British folks believing that they were superior Europeans coming over, including British to Turtle Island, and colonizing so colonization, white supremacy, religion, and how, by knowing that stuff, we're able to understand how we got here today. And I did a really I didn't episode a few a few episodes about religion and diet culture, we can't forget that the way that we are feeling today, if we're feeling certain ways that more often than not, it comes from white supremacy. So if you're feeling shit about yourself, it's probably facets of white supremacy. And if you are a white person, that privilege that internalized privilege alongside not meeting up, not not adhering to what white supremacy, expects of you. So it's, it's you know, it's it's, it's complicated, right? And it's interesting and and I wonder how much how much you know about your history, your family's history, if you know anything at all, or if you're able to talk to your parents, and honestly talking to my mom, and she told me stuff that I had never heard and I and we talk all the time, I've asked her so many questions. I can't even I can't even tell you how many how many we you know, I don't know if we if we said it in the in the audio with my mom there. But we've been writing a book, a question a question every week. This is this is a thing that you can buy where you ask, someone writes a biography, autobiography.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:15

Question today, what the fuck is it called? Let me tell you. Anyway, I bought it for her as a gift. And so I help her with it. Because you can just send it to someone and they'll get a question every week and they send it. I think they're really cool. It's really cool. Because then there's going to be a book like a bound book, and we can get a few copies that generations in the future are going to read of like what was what was your life like? Great, great, great, great grandma or whatever. And then maybe the world would have ended by then but who knows?

Unknown Speaker 1:19:43

Okay, so if you appreciate the podcast and you want to keep it advert free, then you can donate to me on CO fees, that's que ofI and you can go kofi, fierce, fatty you'll find me it's in the show notes. If you would like to buy me a coffee for $5 hills or you can if you want, subscribe monthly and you will get access to the size diversity resource guide. It is in Craig Abler. It has everything that you need in there to have size diversity in your life. I think it's amazing. I'm biased though. So yeah, so if you appreciate the work that I do in the podcast and you want to keep it, advert free, then go to Kofi and donate. If you can't donate at this time, then that's good. That's fine. Don't worry. I don't hate you. I hate you know.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:42

Aang Alright, well, thanks for hanging out with me today and I will see you in a why Oh, alligator, stay fair. spatty.