Episode 114 Transcript

Read transcript alongside audio.

Welcome to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm your host, Victoria Welsby and this is episode 114. Today, we're talking about the latest science on trauma and weight.

I'm Victoria Welsby TEDx speaker, Best Selling Author and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self esteem to being a courageous and confident fifth party who loves every inch of this jelly. society teaches us living in a fat body is bad. But what if we spent less time, money and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that actually matter? Like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed? Or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century? So how do you stop negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the first fatty podcast Let's begin.

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Hello, fatties, and fatty Ali's Ali's allies Welcome to this episode. Let's just say yeah, nice to talk to you. How are you your rights? How's life fair to middlin fair to middlin I made a post I made a post of a tweet that I saw on it. I thought it was so fucking cute. It's a tweet from like 2019 but it's talking about sled dogs, dogs, dogs, and let me only read it out to you. Okay, so the person who tweeted it originally is Blair Braverman on Twitter. And I'll put a link in the show notes of the post. So I made it into an Instagram posts for you. Because you get to the dogs you can get to the puppies. But this the post reads, y'all because they're American. Let's pretend they're American. I don't know.

Actually, I think they are. Y'all have a sled dogs has been so good for my body image. And now because motion is joy field, physical outdoor activity. Although that's true. It's actually something much slimmer and simpler than that. I want to stop doing my shitty accent and I apologize. Apologize. I don't think even even think this was American. Anyway, if that was an American accent, you're you're having sled dogs have been so good for my body image. And not because mushing is joyfilled. Motion is a joyfilled physical outdoor activity. Although that's true. It's actually something much simpler than that. And there's a picture of a yellow lab dog with an orange to to going along with that. Continuing, I grew up learning that all bodies are different. Okay, yeah, that's true, whatever. But what is it different? I get it.

And then I started caring for sled dogs. I feed and train and massage them, teach them as puppies and ease them into retirement. We get to know each dog so well. And once we started doing this, do you know what became extremely obvious? And I got a little picture of the puppies get this, or what is it different. But I don't mean this in some flip way. I mean in a bone deep, beautiful, complicated way. All the dogs his bodies are so different. Some of them eat 1000s of calories a day, and are still complete string beans. They eat literally three times as much food as everyone else. Some of them can eat like a tablespoon of kibble, and the next day they need a bigger harness that easy keepers. Their bodies make their bodies naturally want to be bigger, which is good, easy keepers make great sled dogs. Some of them can start training in September and are immediately ready for the long runs. Some of them need to ease into training slowly, but they need gentler workouts and more training sessions before they can keep up with the rest of the team. Some of them want to run 1000 miles. This is my favorite picture. If you go on the postgame. Look at that one. In dog dogs silly. So cute was either flight continuing, some of them feel their best during shorter, faster runs. And occasionally some of them aren't that into running at all. Some of them have disabilities. And so on that one they've got a little dog inside next to the fireplace chewing on something in with a blanket.

And then there's another dog there. It looks like maybe that dogs blind or has cataracts in their eyes. Anyway, some of them were born with bodies that makes it make everything harder for them. And they need extra care and understanding to really shine. The point is, their bodies are so different. But the differences aren't good or bad. They just are we don't love Tolec more or less because He's skinny, or Colbert, because he's a chunkster. The idea makes no sense. It's absurd. And like, my body is like that, too. It has its own it has its own set points its own levels, so does yours. The dogs bodies aren't up to them, just like ours aren't. There's no value judgment. They are what they are. And every single one of them is magnificent. The end and then the final picture is of a dog getting a scratch under under their chin and looking all smiley with their eyes closed with the tongue. The tongue in their mouth looking happy. I thought that was so cute. And lots of people put messages saying I love it. And I think I loved it too. Like to start with that. I think a lot of people say Oh, I can get it now. Now that it's about dogs. Of course. Of course. Of course. I

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don't love my one dog more because it's it's this or that and versus another dog. Yeah. My little doggy. My daddy. He's just he's just doesn't love him. Right. Okay, well, okay, well, it looks like he's a silly little sausage. Yeah, so today I wanted to this is today is going to be like an audiobook. Almost, because I'm going to read an article to to you. It's not my article I didn't write. It's from Judith Matz, who is an incredible person in the fat positive community. He wrote a piece for psychotherapy, networker, and it just really stuck with me. My thinking about this and thinking about this, thinking about this. About I've done an episode on off people fat because of trauma. Before Judith has written a new piece on the latest science, and the idea that in mental health worlds and multiple mental health fields, there is still this pervasive belief that fatness is caused by trauma, and even in supposedly, supposedly progressive spaces. This is still a belief and people think, well, you know, what's the harm in that? Because they're not blaming the fat people. But, you know, it's yeah, let let me read. Let me read this article. Okay. It's probably going to take me 20 minutes to read it so you can just sit back, relax. I might give some commentary here and there, but I'm gonna I'm gonna link to it by the way in the show notes, show notes for today's podcast. Face facebook.com forward slash 114 for episode 114 If you forget, if you ever forget whatever number that you're looking for, then you can just go to forward slash podcast, not not just forward slash podcast facebook.com forward slash forward slash podcast for the latest podcast or car. Crime. You he said he settle. He settled in. Are you sitting comfortably? You feeling good? Ah, okay, let's read this read. Let's read this. Okay. And learning weight stigma, the latest science on trauma and weight base due to Matt's January February 2022.

A few years back when professional meetings were all still happening in person I found myself admits fellow therapists grabbing the last seat in a packed conference ballroom, we waited expectantly for the presenter, popular trauma expert, Gabriel Mati after a keynote speech earlier in the day in which he argued that much of our suffering isn't biological or he or individual failure, but one stemming from the traumatizing nature of the culture we live in. I realized that matter his viewpoint aligned with how I see diet, culture and the impact of weight stigma as a medical doctor offering compassionate addict addiction treatment in Vancouver, Matty's willingness to see beyond the addiction to the traumatized person it consumes has made him a sought after teacher in the larger world of trauma treatment. As someone who specializes in binge eating body image and weight stigma I resonated with his capacity to see the entirety of a person in the context of their environment. So when a workshop participant a few rows behind me stood up to ask him about the connection between, quote unquote, obesity and trauma, I listened with interest. He correctly pointed out that fat shaming is a problem. But then went on to say that the reason quote unquote, obese people don't lose weight is that they need to keep eating to sue. Pain. Almost reflectively reflects reflexive risk reflexively, reflexively, my arm shot, my arm shot up, and before I knew it, a microphone was shoved into my hand. I leaned into the mic, my heart pounding and said, some people may binge eat to soothe pain, but the assumption that everyone will lose weight if they stopped binging or that all higher weight people binge is wrong.

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Matt a paused then asked me, Are you familiar with the work of Vinson Filati I immediately knew where he was going with this question. For let he was behind a study that imparts suggests that sexually abused women seek to protect themselves from further abuse by gaining weight and keeping it on in the Body Keeps the Score trauma specialist Bessel Vander Kolk describes how the observations of valetti and internist and chief of Preventative Medicine at Kaiser permanent permit permanente lead to the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale. So if you don't know the the a scale, it's it says basically.

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Actually, I'll just continue because it says it just right here. For that is work identified not only the extent to which the general population experiences trauma during their youth, but also gave practitioners a simple ranking scale of traumatic experiences that could help identify who's more apt to engage in high risk behaviors, the outcomes of which include addiction, unintended pregnancies, sexual tension and sexually transmitted diseases, and, quote, obesity. For that his ideas about the whys of higher weights are now widely accepted, especially the idea that someone of higher weight maintains that weight because of trauma. In fact, more often than not, this is offered up less as a possibility and more as a full blown assumption on the part of too many professionals. You see evidence of it everywhere, particularly given the popularity of aces in the therapy and healthcare world. In her book, The deepest Well, California Surgeon General Nadine Burke Harris repeats the story of for lettuce discovery, saying saying it goes quite a long way toward explaining towards explaining why his most successful patients, the one, the ones who had peeled off that protective layer, were so desperate to put it back on and quote, for that is fun. It is headed for Letty headed up his quote a beat obesity clinic from the mid 80s to the late 90s, using what he called supplemented, absolute fasting to bring about dramatic weight loss. Patients ate no solid food, only liquids and supplemented by essential vitamins, amino acids and electrolytes. One of his female patients lost 276 pounds over the course of a year.

And when she regained weight, surprise the Bruins. For that he attributed her rapid weight gain solely to the distress caused by a male coworker beginning to express sexual interest in her 10 days after learning of this particular patient's history of sexual abuse. valetti came across another patient with a history of sexual trauma and rapid weight gain. According to Vander Kolk, this was quote, only the second case of incest for Lety had seen in his 23rd 23 year medical practice, and quote, but when half of the obese patients in the initial study later revealed they also be sexually abused. He settled on the idea that there must be a link between higher weight and the abuse and a correlation between weight gain and protection against further sexual trauma. He did this without researching rates of sexual abuse among thinner people. Hmm, well, well, for that he only having heard about two cases of incest in his career says more about his not knowing to ask his subjects about sexual trauma than it does about the frequency of abuse. As we now know, people of all sizes are survivors of incest and sexual assault, and only recently in the area of hashtag me to have many felt emboldened to share their experience. From a just from a statistical standpoint, there's nothing surprising about Pilates finding given that two thirds of Americans fall into a higher weight category. It's to be expected The majority of people who have experienced sexual abuse or higher weight, yet many practitioners today have come to interpret for letters work as proof positive, that sexual or other trauma underlies Most cases of quote, obesity and the inability to permanently lose weight. Psychologist Deb Bogaard a leader in the health every size movement puts it this way, quote, the majority of people who blink are higher weights. If sexual abuse and body size are totally unrelated, we'd see that the majority of people who have experienced sexual abuse being higher weight some one arguing that fat people are less likely to have experienced sexual abuse could be as true could just as truthfully say that the majority of people who have not experienced sexual abuse are higher weight and quote,

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even more important that's potent than statistics is biology. To those of us who work in this area, it's clear that consistently attributing weight gain weight regain to trauma and fear of sexual attention is an outright denial of the science. It's no surprise that for let his patients rapidly gain back the weight following extreme fasts, research on this behavior dates, bait dates to World War Two when conscientious objectors who agreed to take part in a study on starvation lost a quarter of their body weight and became irritable, depressed, lethargic and obsessed with food. Once free to Once freed to eat what they wanted.

Again, the men benched for weeks, but stayed ravenous as their body sought to become re nourished. I did a whole episode on that that's the Minnesota starvation experiment. And I also cover in that episode, the the Chava, ghetto study, very interesting stuff. Which is basically making people lose weight is not good. And other things. Okay, continue. More recently, a study a study of former participants in the Biggest Loser television show demonstrated the physiological consequences of intentional weight loss. When the show began, they met metabolisms burned the typical number of calories for their body size, they had slower metabolism metabolisms at the end of the show, as would be true for just about anyone who suppresses their weight through intentional weight loss. The big surprise was that their resting metabolisms remain permanently lowered. Demonstrating that weight regulation is more than a matter of calories in and calories out. Binging after a diet is every body's natural, every body's natural way of trying to protect itself from perceived famine. A recent weight loss study of nearly 300,000 people found that within five years between 95 and 98% of people have gained back all of the lost weight out or more for letting was reported reportedly looking for a trigger event explain weight regain. It never occurred to him that the physiological response to dieting for weight loss might be it. Don't assume you know your clients history. There's no doubt that binging is a survival strategy for many trauma survivors, including sexual assault survivors, and then it can lead to weight gain, especially if they try to change their weight through dieting. But I reject the implication that all higher weight people who tries to lose try to lose weight and then gain it back should be assumed to do so to protect themselves from sexual attraction or trauma based shame. Why does this distinction matter so much? When those of us in therapy in the therapy world assume that highway individuals have a sexually or otherwise traumatic past, it adds another layer to the fat shaming and weight stigma they're already likely enduring.

And as Gabbo Marty emphasized in his presentations, exposure to stigma worsens physical health. In the book anti diet Intuitive Eating dietician Christy Harrison explains the impact of weight stigma on alates allostatic load or the cumulative effect of chronic stresses are multiple systems in the body, which can worsen like diabetes and heart disease. A large 10 year study found those impacted by weight stigma were twice as likely to have a high allostatic load making it a quote an independent risk factor for physiological stress.

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Along these lines, therapists should be aware that within size acceptance communities the word fat has been reclaimed as a neutral, objective or positive identity and that as I expressed a matter The term obesity in is in itself a fat shaming world. I fucking love that this, this hat this interaction happened and I hope gave a Matty listened anyway continue in 2013 The American Medical Association declared against the recommendations of its own scientific advisory board obesity to be a disease. Higher white people with health markers that fall in a normal range are now considered diseased within the medical field, including, according to one study 54 million people incorrectly labeled as unhealthy when relying on the BMI. If you check in with your higher weight clients, you'll find the probability that they haven't been fat shamed by the medical community to be extremely low. What's more likely is that they've been given harmful medical interventions in the name of weight loss, while not receiving adequate medical care for actual health conditions. They certainly don't also need their therapist to be offering interventions based on stigma and stereotypes. Take my recent conversation with Grammy nominated singer Mary Lambert, a fat queer woman Woman best known for her collaboration with the Macklemore song, same love. So good song that is, over the course of my life. I've had several therapists tell me that I was fat, because I subconsciously wanted to be undesirable and desexualized after sexual trauma, she said, I didn't see it is a harmful thing at the time. But in retro strip retrospect, the fact that some therapists perpetuate the concept of pathetic pathologizing fatness is incredibly awful and damaging. women who've been sexually assaulted or experienced trauma deserve coping mechanisms that aren't harmful. What a blessing then, is food, not a drug or an addictive substance, just the comfort of fullness. I'm so thankful for those behaviors that soothe me at a painful time. But we also have to stop attributing the behaviors of emotional eating to every fat person and interrupted the belief that thin people don't emotionally eat separate to the behavior from the characteristic of being fat. They are two different things, and you have no idea what someone's habits are, and quote Lambert's hid Lambert's healed many of the wounds of her trauma and made peace with food and found a loving relationship, and she remains at a higher weight. If our anti fat bias leads us to conclude She must still be protecting herself from unwanted sexual attention must have a few food problem is physically unhealthy, or even that high white people can't be sexually desirable, then we're complicit in upholding weight stigma and promoting the interventions for weight loss that are so damaging. Yes, and that's a that's another thing that I want you to to mention, is that by saying even just by saying that people are fat to protect themselves from sexual advances, is making the presumption that being fat is so so an attractive that it would protect from sexual advances.

And when we talk about sexual assault, that it's the person who owns the body's fault for being sexually assaulted. When it's not, and it's not about being attracted to someone. It's about power, right? And so it's just so many false assumptions and harmful assumptions there. Okay, continuing fat shaming with a clinical brush. I hear this dread of fat assumptions, fat shaming and diet prescriptions by professionals. For many of my clients, you like very likely have clients who also feel this dread. Perhaps you feel it to

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hire white people often avoid going to doctors or therapists because the stigma they experience is untenable. We know that for example, fat women have higher rates of cervical cancer because they're likelier than thin people to avoid getting pap smears due to smears due to the wage discrimination and prejudice they experienced. at the doctor's office. fat shaming and weight discrimination can even prove deadly. Take the case of Ellen Maude Bennett, a high overweight woman repeatedly told by medical providers that weight loss was a solution to her ailments, but it turned out that she actually had cancer. Her obituary reads a final message Ellen wants to share was about the fat shaming. She injured from the medical profession. Over the past few years of feeling unwell she'd sought out medical intervention, but no one had offered offered any support or suggestions beyond weight loss. Ellen's dying wish was that women of size make her death matter by advocating strongly for their health and not accepting that fat is the only relevant health issue. The therapy community has long prided itself on being an tentative to the hurried and often insensitive medical establishment, but it continues to contribute to the problem. If we automatically paint our higher weight clients with a clinical brush labeled sexual trauma survivor will only further alienate clients already sensitive to our anti fat biases. Promote the a nuanced belief that fat is a mental health issue and expect weight loss to be evidence of healing. Among the revered work of existential therapists Yvan olam is his story fat lady, in which he describes his strong reaction to the body of his client Betty in an afterword after what in an afterword written, I think that should afterward written 25 years later that acknowledges the letters he received from higher white women about the stories offensiveness, he owns the detrimental impact on his bias and says therapists need to openly explore similar biases in supervision so they're not imposed on the client.

According to the Red Center, psychologists ascribe more pathology, more negative and severe symptoms and worse prognosis to fat patients compared to thinner patients presenting identical psychological profiles. And a recent review of Harvard, Harvard's implicit bias studies showed a decrease in all categories, except weight bias. Given that we have no evidence based means of achieving sustainable weight loss for the vast majority of people, we also need to ask ourselves, why do we continue to use weight loss as a measure for psychological healing? Aubrey Gordon, the author of what we don't talk about when we talk about fat, right? Whatever we want to think about ourselves, we've got to make the shift from thinking anti fat bias is something we decide to do out of animus to something that exists within us unless we unless and until we uproot it. Binge Eating is an issue that can benefit from treatment, and it does attach to trauma. But questions about the history of any trauma should be asked of all clients, not just those at higher weights. And when working with clients who want to explore issues related to food and or body size, it's important to ask the right questions such as, what can you tell me about your relationship with food? When was the first time someone said your body was a problem? What do you think would be different in your life if you lost weight? How have you been impacted by weight stigma and bias? It's important to remember that your higher weight clients often experienced weight related bullying and shaming in childhood by peers, family and health professionals. These messages become ingrained in the psyche, referred to as internalized weight stigma.

According to Amy Pershing, co author of binge eating disorder, the journey to recovery and beyond the pathologizing of body size and prescriptions to restrict food intake limit that opportunity to identify and honor physical cues of hunger and fullness, and many have significant diet and weight cycling histories as a result,

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when there is trauma and binge eating, when binge eating is revealed to be a strategy for coping with emotional stress distress, therapists should be aware that developing body awareness and trust plays a critical role in lessening the impact of traumatic activation. But this is difficult when survivors of physical and sexual trauma experience connection with their bodies as a trigger for shame. Now in his late 30s, my client Tyler grew up in a physically abusive home with an alcoholic father. Once when he was in middle school and engrossed in a book his dad called him from court for him downstairs. When Tyler didn't respond immediately, his father stormed upstairs and broke down his door yelling, you lazy fat slob. For the rest of his childhood, Tyler had no bedroom door. There's no privacy admit, admit the chaos in his home. Food became his go to for soothing or numbing and binging followed him through his college years and beyond, eventually becoming woven into his psyche as a way to care for himself.

Now a manager at a lab called large corporation Tyler's embarrassed by his binge eating and higher weight body. This came to a head when his company offered employees a reduction in insurance rates determined by their weight. When Tyler first contacted me, he desperately wanted to lose weight so that he could save money and fit in better quote with coworkers. But no matter how many weight loss strategies he had tried, he couldn't get his weight quote, under control. We work with the concept of a tune Eating also known as intuitive eating, with full recognition that working his way out of diet mindset would take time. He managed to decrease the frequency of binging. But the pace of progress frustrated him, and he wanted to know when He would know when He would be, quote, cured. Though I couldn't tell him how long it would take to take to heal his relationship with food. I wanted him to develop compassion for his needs to turn it, turn to it during times of distress. Over time, Tyler came to appreciate how binging as a child helped him survive a chaotic, unpredictable, and sometimes dangerous household. He began to understand that when his past trauma became activated, food was still his best option at times for calming his nervous system. He felt both angry and helpless that his workplace was essentially punishing him for his weight, especially now that he understood how dieting for weight loss actually exasperate is that exacerbated his binge eating. As we focused on building new skills to meet his needs, in addition to turning to food, he began to notice that more time lapse between binges, and that when a binge did occur, he could end it sooner than in the past. He also focused on ways to care for his body that did not require the pursuit of weight loss, including seeking medical care for his health conditions from a weight neutral doctor. Anti fat bias inherently assumes a thin body to be healthier, more desirable, and even virtuous. There is a goodness about being thin. This moralization of CIBSE further reinforces the body shame narratives clinicians are trying to treat. So it's imperative that we recognize that we're at cross purposes if we're trying to help clients heal from body shame by focusing on changing their bodies. Even if weight gain is the result of a trauma driven eating disorder. The reality is that a client may or may not lose weight in the course of recovery. That's what it's meant means to be weight neutral. Ultimately, Gabor Ma Tei responded to my comments with openness and curiosity when I made a point at his workshop, and we continued our conversations throughout the conference. I've heard from many clients and colleagues that they find the find resources such as the Body Keeps the Score, and the deepest well extremely helpful in understanding their own clients trauma, but they're triggered by the Philately material that blames body size on trauma, promotes weight loss and exalt ignores the lived experience of higher weight people.

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As mental health clinicians, we can do a better job of not contributing to this trigger to this triggering, we can use language that describes their actual behavior, which is binging and stop conflating, quote, obesity with trauma, we can understand the science of weight regulation and stop viewing higher weight bodies as pathological. I also urge those who treat trauma and especially those who are leaders in the field to familiarize themselves with the true nature of weight based trauma so as not to further traumatize or be it unintentionally, people, people who already experienced weight stigma end and it says due to Judith mats l CSW is a nationally recognized speaker and co author of the making peace with food car deck, the body positivity card deck beyond the shadow of a diet and the diet survivors handbook. She has a she has a private practice in the Chicago area. Contact Judas and Matt stock calm. Oh, can you imagine that? How lucky that patient Tyler that she was talking about got to meet her and not anyone else? Because how often is it that a patient gets to access care from a haze aligned provider? Like one in a gajillion chance now, you know that's that's overstated. But you know, it's you know, I just I'm so pleased that that person had that good experience and nice to hear that gavel Matty was open because he's from Vancouver, right which is where I am and it's all my phobic image based here so you know they call it Hollywood Hollywood North here because they do lots of filming but also you know, is pretty much is you know, Lululemon yoga and smoothies type place. Vancouver's great like, you know, that's a big part of the culture.

Anyway, so love that article. And some important so important so you know that the one quote that I really liked was about blinking Basically, where is it? The depth, the guard said that the majority of people who blink are higher weight. So if sexual abuse and body size are, if sexual abuse and body size are totally on right related, we'd see this in the majority of people who've experienced sexual abuse being higher weight. Yeah, so yeah, that idea of you know, more, you know, fat people are more likely to get this and that and Lola. And yeah, fat people are more likely to blink, you know, the majority of people who blink a higher weight, because there's just more, there's more fat people than there are things people. But, yeah, I like that. I like that. I like that. And I did a little reading for you that you should not be reading. I made a few mistakes, mistakes. But you know, I think that hopefully, I don't have a too annoying reading voice for you there. So a little article reading for you. If you go into work, or walk in the door, whatever you're doing, going to sleep doing the dishes. My favorite time to listen to relaxing podcasts is bedtime. But my favorite time for listening to funny podcasts is listening is walking Google. Because you know, you don't want to be laughing when you're falling asleep. You know, so I wonder when does I think when does my podcast go on in your life? I think my podcast is a doing something like doing the dishes. doing the laundry. That's what I think. Am I right? Are you doing the laundry right now? Are you doing are you having to walk right now? Yeah. So yeah, that's all I wanted to share today. Hope that you're doing well, and that you're alive and stuff. Everything is good for you. Oh, I forgot to mention. I've been on a couple of days with a human person. I had some smooches I met someone who was like so forward thinking and progressive everything that I talk about social justice wise, he's like, yes, and has tons of his terms of opinion. Even on fat stuff. And he's a straight size guy. I'm just like, oh my god, this is amazing. So listen, there's there's people out there there's people out there he's like saying to me Oh, you need to start a plus I store because there's only two places in Vancouver that I can show up and he's like, oh my god this is ridiculous. And he's like and plus I suppose is so expensive. I'm like Yes.

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Great. This is great. Great. Great. So if you're dating you know not saying that this you know, I'm going to be with this guy forever anything I had a couple of dates with him but just saying there are progressive people out there who will be like oh my god, yes. I agree with you about ridiculousness of fatness. They exist and you don't have to settle for people who were like, yes, grace to be fat. Which is unfortunately the majority of humans in the world. Have that opinion.

Anyway, whatever. I'll stop getting annoying. I'll stop talking about people who are annoying. Not that I'm annoying. Anyway, thank you for tuning in. I appreciate it. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day whatever you're doing if it's a laundry if it's walking the dog if it's having a PO have it's great for you. And we'll see you in the next episode of air Sramana by crocodile.

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Thanks for listening to the episode and if you feel ready to get serious about this work and want to know when the doors open to fears fattier Academy which is my signature program, where I teach all about how to overcome your fat phobic beliefs and learn to love your fat body. Then go to phase fatty.com forward slash waitlist again that is phase fatty.com. Forward slash waitlist to get your name on the waitlist. For when first party Academy my signature program opens