Episode 150 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 150. When people in your life are anti-fat and pro-diet. I'm Vinny Welsby, your host. Let's do it.

Hey, how are ya? I realized I almost never introduced myself. I'm Vinny My pronouns are they them? I am a smelly British person, British Irish person living in Canada in Vancouver, which is the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples, Squamish, slaver tooth and Musqueam nation forms. Welcome to the show if you're new here, and if you're not new here, welcome back. So good to see ya. How you doing what's going on. This week, Spotify had released its you know, the rap thing. And if you are a podcaster, they will give you your podcast stats, I can see my stats anyway on a different program, which releases it to all the platforms. But then Spotify put it in pretty graphics means more because it's in pretty, pretty graphics. Well, I just wanted to shout out the top 10 countries that people listen to the show from so we're top 10 We've got the United States. Yes, United Kingdom. Thank you, Canada. Yeah, Australia, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, New Zealand, Finland and Norway. We're trying to so interesting. I'm like, Who is listening in Sweden or the Netherlands? Or Norway or Finland? How do they know about me? How do you know about me like US, UK and Canada. I feel like you know, I've that's my general region. Right? And then other folks. Hi, how did you find me? Hey, hey. And first of all, your podcast is in the top 10% shared globally, and you're not in the top 2% global rank for popular podcasts. I'm in the top 2%. Wow, and I just I checked also checked out recent reviews and I do want to read out a few one of them is a one star review. Okay, so five stars informative. This is a review of the show. If you want informative well research information on how to be a fat ally or on how to set boundaries as a fat person Vinnie is a perfect choice. They are entertaining, empathetic and sensitive, funny, and they do their homework. I also love the regularity of new episodes. Thank you very much. And that is from someone in Ireland. Oh, Ireland is not in the top 10 Come on Ireland on five stars fat positive podcast at its best. empathetic, knowledgeable, hilarious. You get all this and more when you listen to Vinny Welsby. I am in love. On that's from that's from Germany. Five stars. This pod is awesome in capital letters. Videos podcast is a must for anyone who needs some fatty love and also for tons of well researched education around fatness and all the issues that intersect with it. Their style is so fun, but also sensitive and compassionate. Listen, listen, listen with four exclamation points. And that's Great Britain. Thank you so much. Honestly, it makes me feel so good reading those and you know what, what makes me feel really, really good, is the empathetic and compassionate stuff. I'm like, Yes, I really appreciate that. And then like the ego mean, when you say that I'm funny. I'm like not everyone agrees though one star tried really hard, they say tried really hard to enjoy this and learn but just completely completely misses the mark on a lot of things including contradictions within the same episode to support the point of the moment. Also, all of the constant singing and shouting makes it hard to listen with headphones be warned. And that was from Great Britain boo boo it is. And you know, that review I was like, you know, had I like a moment a moment of I'm too loud and sing too much. And you know what, you know with a singing thing. I don't know if I probably have mentioned this before. So I go to choir but also, I started going to like singing groups because I was so all my life. I felt like I had to be quiet because growing up. My dad couldn't tolerate any type of noise in the house. And so things like singing prohibited obviously, and I wasn't He's very, very shy, which people are very surprised with. But I was I was really, really shy. And so even if I wanted to sing, there was no way I was going to and I did want to sing but so using my voice and singing and being loud is a very hard one battle for me. And I'm not always loud. You know, sometimes I might laugh and shout or whatever, but I think that's just a normal human thing, right? And the singing thing, listen, that's just me. Some people won't like it. Some people will like it. Some people will be indifferent. Some people believe it. Yeah, they're having fun, who cares? Other people might be like, I wish they didn't sing, but whatever. And also this week, because this is quite kind of timely this week at my choir every week, one person gets to stand up in the in the break and and sing a song if they want. And so the choir is about maybe 100 100 250 people? I don't know, actually. Anyway, and it was my turn this week. And yeah, and I sang Oompah power from Oliver the musical and got people to join in and we had a good old knees up. And so had a little bit of kind of like a vulnerability thing from that. And then I saw the the pay singing is harder lesson because I sang and I was like, oh, but then I remembered that I'm, I'm first phase. So yeah. Anyway, thank you very much. All those reviews. Thank you for listening in for this year. Apparently, we I've got like 87% of the listeners this year on new listeners. So hello, if you started watching the show, or listening to the show this year, you can always find a video of the show on YouTube, if you ever want to watch it because I record the video, just for the I don't know, for the couple of 100 people that watch it on YouTube. And also, there's transcripts for every single episode. I think we've done it now we've gone we went back and we did it for every single episode. And so that's complete. Now that project. So if you ever want to go to the transcript, just go to the show notes. And then you can find the specific show notes for whatever episode it is by going to face fatty.com forward slash 150 For this episode, or forget that first fatty.com forward slash pod cast quick update on the vacation to Dominican Republic. We have six earlybird tickets left. And so if you want to get on the early bird train and get $100 discount, go to the show notes and click on the details about Dominican Republic vacation. If you forget where they are, you can always go to my Instagram. And there's a link in my bio. Basically, we're going for five days to the Dr. It's a fat positive vacation. accessible for those with limited mobility and disabilities. is going to be fucking amazing. So anyway, thought I'd give you some fierce fatty news or not first fatty news, but fatty news or just scandal news. A listener or a follower? sent me an article they're in Germany. Hey, Germany, they're in Germany. Just tell you that I dated a German guy. Recently this year. He was cool. He was like really forward thinking. And he says yeah, Germany is Germany is pretty forward thinking when it comes to a lot of things. Not so much on the fat stuff. Anyway, so here's a new story out of Germany, Tinder ad with Paul Ripka. Think that's how you say his name. weightwatchers responds to criticism. So this is what happened. There's this famous guy called Paul Ripka. And what Weight Watchers did is they partnered with this guy, Paul. And apparently Paul didn't realize what they were actually doing, allegedly. But what they were doing is they were advertising on Tinder. And so Paul, Paul, Paul's profile will come up. And the profile would say, quote, I'm in the mood for a change. And I like to try new recipes. Are you also in the mood for healthy habits, then let's cook together. And so you know, it's like a, he says that he introduces himself as a budding Master Chef, photographer and podcaster All right, and then he says, I like eating food. Do you want to Let's cook together. Okay. And then those who swipe Yes, on him, would then get the message. I've been around for a long time and have finally found myself and my center. Are you also longing for inspiration and support on your journey to more to more balance and a healthy lifestyle? So Sign up for Weight Watchers now and get a taste for new habits. Apparently this only went to fat people

Unknown Speaker 10:12

rip key apologized last Sunday after several social media accounts drew attention to the advert. He says of course, the advertising was was declared as such a not only fat women were addressed, he explained. Nevertheless, all the advertising that Weight Watchers did was a stupid idea. He said, The only relevant thing is how users felt about it. This is translate, okay, I'm on a German website, by the way. And this is translated with Google Translate. And so I think some of the words might be a little bit off. So. So it was not making sense. And apparently, he immediately was like, take this down. And so they did. But imagine that you're like, Oh, hey, Paul. You know, he's like, this foot you're on. We're all guy looks pretty cute. It's got a little bit of chub on him is cute. Like, I mean, I, you know, I don't know about who he is. His personality might be raging, right wing weirdo. And if that's the case, then he's not cute. But you know? And you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do some cocaine with calm. And then it's like, Hey, Fatty, go to weightwatchers Oh, Lord, that's fucked up. So anyway, I thought that was interesting. Let you know about that. So let's talk about what we're talking about today. And what we're talking about today is other human beings. Oh, it's so hard to communicate. Oh, communication, I feel like you know, if I could have a superpower, I've got this diary. It's a five year diary. And then they ask you a question a day, one of the questions is, if you could have, or if you could be an expert at something or have a superpower or whatever. And I almost always answer that question. I've done it for three years, I wish I could be the best communicator. Because communication is so hard. And when you are, and being a good communicator is such a skill, right? That's such a skill. Skill as in, it takes time to master. And yeah, and I think you know, what, with the podcast thing with the people saying that I'm compassionate, is that that's, that's a really big compliment for me, because my communication skills used to be when I was younger, or very angry, and not compassionate, because I was not compassionate towards myself. Yeah, so communication skills, I think is, is a really awesome thing to keep, keep trying apps. And yeah, I'm always I'm always thinking about this and thinking about folks who are newer in their anti diet or fat positive journey, and what that looks like for people. And what that looks like for a lot of people is because most of their lives if you are new to this, and if you are, in in the world of now, you know, Health at Every Size, or intuitive eating or fat positivity or body, body, whatever. Most of your life, theoretically, you have been pro diet, anti fat, and those around you have known you as this personality. And so when we make the change to a different ideology, which is liberatory, which is sometimes against the grain for a lot of people, those in your life can have problems with it. And the other thing is, you'll start to realize how anti fatness and diet culture is everywhere. Oh my goodness, it's everywhere. It's everywhere, right? And a lot of people say that to me, and I'm like, oh my god, Vinny. Like what the hell? I'd rather let's put these glasses back on where I call it see all this shit, because it's fucking everywhere, and it can be really exhausting. And and it's kind of like, well, where do we pick our battles? Are we going to be you know, 20 times a day being like, Hey, by the way, don't say that. That's anti fat or, you know, not watching any TV not consuming any any content any going online, you know, just walking around the world, just, you know, fingers in our ears type of thing is that's impossible, right? But there are times that we do need to deal with other people who are in diet, diet land, or who are, you know, anti fat because we've realized it really is an issue for us. And when I talk to people in coaching and and I we talk about the kind of barriers to their success of loving themselves or you know, getting on with intuitive eating or whatever it is, very often will have. Oh my mum, or my mother in law, or my sister or my friend or people at work or on diets talk shit about fatness that a lot of times they don't talk about shit about the person's fatness. So that you know, the person I'm talking to the talk shit about fatness in general and their own body. And often, the people are not fat, right. And so it's kind of more difficult. Because if someone is like, hey, you know, you're fat, and I don't like you, because you're fat. It's just, that's a lot easier to say. Okay, that's not gonna be so good for my mental health. And it's more clear on what to do, right? And what to do is be like, set a boundary, you remove them from your life, whatever it is, it feels good for you. But when there's more nuance it can be like, What do I do here? And I've asked followers on Instagram to give me your situations, your questions on what to do with certain situations, right? You know, what you're dealing with right now. So I can give specific examples of what to do. But I want to go over first a couple of strategies that I that I teach, and talk about boundaries and don't general right. And so with this, we've got two strategies, boundaries, or remove, reduce protect, which is what I talk about all the time how to protect yourself from fat phobia is removed, reduced protect. So the gold standard is, can you remove fat phobia from your life? So can you get rid of the most triggering aspects of fat phobia? Examples? unfollowing, fat phobic folks on social media and harmful relationships, stop watching that really fat phobic show with only normative bodies, etc. And so remove is like, can we remove that phobia? Great, then, you know, perfect is it's removed from your life. That's not always possible, right. And with boundaries, what we're doing with boundaries is trying to remove or reduce, right, reduce the exposure, remove their exposure, have a boundary, don't talk to me about that being terrible. And if they do, then there's a consequence, and the consequence could be reducing time with them. It could be removing them from your life temporarily or full time. Okay, so reduce is if you're not able to remove for whatever reason, say, for example, it's your parents and your and you are your carers of your parents. And so you can't, you know, you have decided that it's not appropriate for you to remove them from your life because you're the carers. And that's not something you want to do, that's absolutely fine. Or for whatever reason, it doesn't need to be as dramatic as your their carers, but for whatever reason, there's a power imbalance, whatever you can reduce, if possible, can you reduce the amount of time that you're exposed to fat phobia. So an example of this could be spending less time with fat phobic people only watching one hour of that fat per phobic show instead of three. And finally protect so if you can't reduce or remove, then you can potentially protect yourself. And what that looks like is after spending time with fat phobic fat folks engage in self care, spend time reviewing fat positive resources to feel good put headphones in, say if you're at work, and people are talking about diet stuff, or leave the room during during diet talk. So they are three ways we can tackle protecting ourselves from fat phobia. And those things can mean that you're going to have to, you know, communicate with people about this topic. And some of them, maybe not, right, you know, if you're protecting yourself, if people are talking about fatphobia at work, or you know how they love going on diets or whatever. You're removing yourself from the situation or putting headphones in, you know, that's protecting yourself and I want to kind of note here is that whatever you is accessible to you. Is a Okay, right. I don't want folks feeling like oh, you know, I could have I wish I knew what I was what to say or I wish

Unknown Speaker 19:52

I had the perfect Zinger to stop people in their tracks, tracks. You know, that's cool. kind of expecting maybe at this stage, you know, it's unrealistic. And it's, it's probably not helpful for you to expect that you're able to go into battle when you're kind of just kind of finding your feet in this area. So if you're, if you're newer to this, you're maybe you're finding your feet. And even if you've been doing this stuff longer, you might also not be used to communicating your feelings and thoughts. And also, even if you if you are used to, this is like, potentially high stakes business, right? You know, you're sitting around the lunch table with your colleagues, and they're like, Oh, my God, I love cucumbers up the bum. And if you say, Hey, by the way, that's not cool. You know, what are the consequences, you could lose relationships, you could lose your job, you could be ostracized, you could, you know. And so, there's many reasons why this stuff is difficult. And if you choose you want to do something or say something, then that's great. And if you want to and stumble in the moment, that's normal, you know, because when we are confronted with this stuff, our bodies are probably having a reaction. And the reaction could be that your heart is beating faster, perhaps you're breathing quicker, because your heart is beating faster, and your body is like we are in danger. And your brain is not thinking, right? Okay, let's go into the back catalogue of all the research, I know about fatness and Health at Every Size and intuitive in eating and let's come up with a real perfectly well formed sentence, your brain is like, we're in danger, get out of here, just, you know. So you're not in the best stead, is what I'm saying. But saying all that it's a practice, right to practice, practice. And I want to give you some ideas. So with boundaries, not everyone can set boundaries, nor is it always appropriate, you know, I'm talking about the power imbalance, if you're not safe, for whatever reason, it might not be appropriate for you, there could be you know, that power imbalance as your boss. So if you're in a relationship where that person has more power, say, they are the one who earns money, and by disagreeing with them, you know, that they're volatile. And so it's not maybe appropriate in that circumstance. And there's lots of others too. And the other thing is, people have known you potentially, for years, as someone who loves a little bit of diet or, and so it's gonna take time for people to get used to you having new rules and guidelines in your life. Because hopefully, this is going to be a lifelong journey, right? And maybe in the past, you've gone on diets, and it's been a kind of, you do it and you're excited, and then the diet fails, and then you're less excited. And then maybe there's a new diet, and you're excited, and it fails. And so so maybe people are used to you having kind of new things that you're excited about, and maybe they're not taking it seriously that this new thing that you're excited about is something that's going to be for the rest of your life. And so then maybe they're not taking your boundaries as seriously because of that, but we need to help folks understand that no, we are serious about this and it's forever and the way that we do that is with our words and our actions. So my favorite way to get people to stop talking about things that I you know, diets or anti fatness in front of me that my favorite piece of advice is, Hey, friend, family member person, I love person I care about. I don't know if you notice, but I've actually started learning about intuitive eating, anti fatness, whatever. And I've recognized that when people talk about diets, anti fatness, whatever, that it's, it can be a trigger for me. And so I'm wondering if I can have your help with something. Sometimes, you know, starting with, I'm wondering if I can have your help with something. You know, people who love us are like, yes, I'd love to help you with something. Can you avoid talking about XYZ? Or can you not talk about XYZ while I'm around? Now that's one way that we can do it making it about ourselves. And the way the way the reason why I like this is because when we're asking someone to change behavior, Avior it can be very difficult for them because they might hear, you're a bad person, you've hurt me, You've ruined my life, your fault, you're responsible for the way that I feel about myself, right? And, and then that can be difficult for them to listen and hear and understand what's going on. Which is, you know, them problem. But for me, when I'm framing it about me and the fact that I want to achieve this goal, and I'm wondering if they can help me achieve this goal, it's not about how they have fucked up. It's about what I've noticed me, and what makes it difficult for me to love and accept myself. Now, people might might be like, you know, fuck you, blah, blah, blah, oh, you might find that, that that's disempowering for you to say, you know, hey, I've got, I'd like you to help me with something. And that's okay, too. You can say something else, right? And so whatever words used to describe to say to that person, can you stop talking about this thing? And they say, yes, they say, Oh, I'll try. They'll say, no. That is great information for you, whatever they say, is information on what you are going to do next. If they say no, okay, well, we know where we stand. And, you know, for me, it would be unfortunately, I can't continue this relationship with you, or unfortunately, I can't see you as much or, unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off if you do start talking about it, or whatever. Depending on what type of relationship you have. If they say, I'll try, but it'll be so hard, then you can have a conversation of, okay, well, what would be helpful for when you do slip up for me to say, and so you've already got that kind of pre pre agreed of, you know, that you're gonna say, Oh, don't forget, we talked about this or whatever? And if they say, yes, great, I might also have that conversation too. Because if they say, yes, they're probably good, you know, they're a human being, they're probably gonna forget, right? And then when they do then forget and say something, which is unlikely, unlikely thing to happen, you can decide kind of like, what amount of tolerance Do you want to give? We don't want to be the thing is here, we we need to have a level of, of standing our ground, right. And that is where boundaries fall apart, is that there is no standing of ground when someone says that it will. So this is what happens if someone says, Yeah, I've set boundaries. I've told my my mum not to talk about my body, but she keeps doing it. And then I say, okay, so what do you do when she does keep doing it? Nothing. And then I'm like, Ah, okay, and it's inappropriate that your mom still talks about your body. But also, this is kind of like a new education thing for for your mom, you know, your mom's known you as this person and known how to talk to you for X amount of years. And so we need to then be reinforcing our new boundary by saying, Hey, you remember I said about this or by doing whatever could be that you're going to leave the room, it could be that you're going to end the conversation, it could be that you're going to decide not to talk to them for an X X amount of weeks. It could be that you end the relationship, whatever it is, that feels good for you, you know, but if we're not following it up with something, then that is where we're going to fail. Right? Because you're serious about this right you are serious about this. This is not acceptable. And we have to keep helping people understand that it is not acceptable by how we react when they mess up which they probably will because they are a human being so in my life I've set boundaries and it was very difficult for me because I was slash am probably still a massive people pleaser and terrified terrified to to say anything to state my needs because I thought people would just you know, flip a table and be like, Fuck you, you're dead to me. You know, even if it was like, Hey, can you take your shoes off at the door? Never like what? take my shoes off. That would just be way too high stakes. And so you know, I couldn't go in with a Um, hey, here's these big huge boundaries with big important people in my life, I had to go in with, you know, the easier things like, Hey, do you think that you could take your shoes off?

Unknown Speaker 30:11

You know, whatever it is. And you know what, it made me a better better friend, because instead of being, you know, seething, that my friend is in my house wearing shoes and being like, so mad about a, you know, it could just be nipped in the bud. And you know, and it gives them access to having a better relationship with me, because I'm not secretly, you know, mad at them for something that could be corrected so easily. But it was still hard, right, because of what I've learned about, you know, about that this stuff growing up, we didn't have boundaries. So in my life, I, almost everyone has had a good reaction when I set boundaries. One of my siblings refused to honor a boundary, a very kind of simple boundary. And unfortunately, I had to end a relationship with her. And because we're at the same state, it's been, I guess, a number of years now would be like, three years or something, that I haven't had a relationship with her. And that feels really good for me, right? That's like a long time coming of like many years of therapy to get to that point, right? And set boundaries with her. And then when she just was like, no, no, I'm not going to do that. And I know, but you basically I was like, oh, okay, well, that's a great information for me about the type of person she is and what type of relationship she wants, she wants a relationship, which doesn't have boundaries, or, or, you know, not being able to respect or try and understand me. And so, you know, that means that I can't have a relationship with her. And my life, because of that has improved, not having a relationship, and I'm able to offer her in my brain more compassion, for understanding where she might be at, versus before, I was just constantly angry with her. So, yeah, so let's move to so what the reason why I'm telling you those stories is probably most people are going to have either a neutral or good reaction, right? Depending how the way you say, if you're like, listen up here, motherfuckers you're all pieces of shit and ruined my life, and I hate you, and you better not say this, or I'm gonna punch you in the face or whatever, then maybe they might have a good reaction. And it's fine. If you feel like that, you know, that's absolutely to be, you know, understandable, because sometimes these people have really fucked with our lives, and are the cause of these issues that we're dealing with. And you don't have to do anything. You know, be kind to people who have been unkind to you. But, you know, normally speaking, if we're having conversations, which are, are nuanced, and, you know, trying to be big, be kind and respectful to each other, then these types of conversations tend to tend to go okay, or good, and sometimes they might not, and that's okay, too. That doesn't mean what you're asking, Is this awful, terrible thing and that you're unreasonable? You know, that, you know, we can't we can't draw that conclusion from someone not respecting our boundaries. So here's a question from a follower on Instagram, who says my partner's mum always mocks his weight and blames me for making him fat with my cooking. He has a history of restricting and fainting due to malnutrition. And I encourage intuitive eating, his mother is fat herself, but says it's only acceptable to be fat when you're 50 Plus, I have told her several times I don't accept her speaking about her son in a demeaning way, but she keeps telling him to lose weight because, quote, he looks so much better. I wonder what to say to someone that clearly does not respect my wishes, not to fat shame and I find it odd why it's common for older fat people to shame on younger fat people. Okay, so you know, when I read that I just felt really like this is straight up bullying and is cruel and is deeply harmful. If from the first sentence blames me for making him fat with my cooking, I mean, that's so sexist, right? So you're making him fat with your cooking like he is this helpless, baby boy and you're his mother Mother responsible for his care. And so you're to blame for him having a body you know, so weird. It's so so it's just the patriarchy right there and As the other thing is, is that he's fainted due to malnutrition. Could your partner be anorexic? The last episode we did on atypical anorexia, Anorexia and fat folks? And that, you know, someone is not eating enough that they faint. That is, I mean, it's could be a sign, right? So you're, you're, I'm saying Mother in law, you didn't say mother in law, I'm just gonna say mother in law to shorten it. Your mother in law could be encouraging an eating disorder. And I'm curious to what does your partner do? Or say, when the mother in law says these things like? Because it sounds like you're standing up for him, but we don't we don't have the information of what he's seeing. Whether he's saying, Yeah, mom cut it out. Or if he's saying nothing, and then when when you get home, he's like, I can't believe my mom said that. Or if he's saying, Yeah, well, you know, how my mom's like, just leave a B. And, you know, you're the one kind of taking on this, this burden. So I'm curious about that. Because, you know, it's, he plays a he, you know, he, it's about him, right? And so, would it be appropriate for you both to come up with consequences? Because I wonder, you know, like, she, you said, we've taught, I've taught her several times, and but she keeps doing it. And so she keeps doing it, because there's no consequence, right? Like, if she wasn't in your life, she couldn't not do it. And I was saying, that's it and the relationship. And, you know, and it's, and again, we need to have a bit of, of nuance, when we're thinking about this. You could be living with them with the with, you know, the mum, you could be dependent on her for for cheaper rent or something, or, or we're not we, you know, we don't know the situation, exactly. And so, would it be appropriate to have consequences, where it's like, we're not going to see you, we're not going to talk to you or whatever. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But I think every time that she's doing it, I think there has to be, this is not acceptable.

Unknown Speaker 37:35

This is not acceptable. Coming up with some type of word track that you just keep saying. And it could be that you're saying, you know, this is not acceptable. Do not comment on his weight. You are engaging in, in, in bullying and in bigotry right now. Whatever it is, it could be that you literally get up from the table and say, I'm sorry, we're not able to be here, while you're talking about why you're shaming Sutton. And walking away. It could be that you, I saw this post where someone says that whenever someone talks about something, why they're done, or if it was wait, but they just come up with a random fact about otters, and they said, Did you know that otters hold hand with hands when they sleep? You know, and so that she learns that is not it not is not going to gain her anything by keep to keep talking about his weight? Because it could be that right now, what she's thinking is, well, if I keep going, they're going to really understand that this is something that's important for me if I keep shaming him, he might become thin you know, there's that that's that you know that she's doing it for a reason some benefit to her. And that benefit could be that the sun she perceives the sun and having a better life, if he is thinner, you know, and I you know, your question of like, why is it that older, fat people shame, younger fat people and I feel like sometimes older fat people can be really deep and fatphobia they've been alive longer they have been around during the peak of, of diet culture and you know, all sorts of stuff, depending on their age, they might have been around where, you know, things like Fen Fen diet pills and all sorts of stuff. Now, we're lucky enough to, you know, in the last 10 years be more exposed to that and sometimes not all older people, but sometimes, some older people are not exposed to those messages and it just seems so you know, quote, everyone knows that being fat is bad. They're not exposed to the other idea of, you know, That's all true. And so because sometimes older folks can be do even fatphobia, they know, they've seen the they've experienced the world that is so deeply anti fat. And the conclusion in their mind is not, Let's rally against fat phobia, it's, let's not be fat. And so in their mind, it might be okay to fat shame and not even might be in this example, it is okay for her in her mind to fat shame, because it might get her the result that she's hoping for, which is the chance that her son will become thin, and therefore in her mind happier, and therefore, safe from fat phobia. And so there's kind of something you know, you know, a plus b equals 25, you know, so it's kind of like, a plus b, that makes sense, you know, but we're targeting the wrong thing. So she's targeting the wrong thing, which is, instead, we should be tackling bigotry and anti fat bias. She's saying we should target fatness and fat people, and probably feels like she's doing a really good thing. Because being fat in this world is difficult, you know, but I mean, shit. It's, there's plenty of fat, older people and thin older people who would recoil at this story and say, well, that's obviously really fucked up. And that's obviously going to drive a wedge in the relationship between you and the sun, and obviously is not going to be successful. So I really don't like this kind of letting people who are older off the hook. Because I mean, it really feels like we're infantilizing older people we're being like, well, they don't know any better. Why not? They have a brain. They are able to be compassionate, you know? Hello. And just because it was, you know, different when they were young, doesn't matter. Other older folks have been able to get it. You know, my my mom, my mom was deep in that stuff, right? She's 71. Now. And she is I mean, if you talk to her, she's so radical. She's got things that she needs to work on. Yeah, like as we all do, but there's no way I would have thought that she would say the things that she does now, you know, it's really beautiful to see. And so even if someone is currently being a beggar, there is hope. But we cannot accept that. And we cannot accept any bigotry, and that is fat phobia. That is racism, that is sexism, that is all of those things, it is not appropriate to just kind of be like, wow, you know, they're older. And you know, this person is not saying that I'm just saying in general. It's just not acceptable and fat phobia is bigotry. It is anti black racism. It is not acceptable. Yeah, so for this one, I really want to know what consequences we have in place. What is happening? And what is the what is your partner doing? Like? Is he involved in this process, because that could be difficult if he's not because you're, you know, one person standing up when the relationship dynamic is between, you know, the Son and the mum. And, and that could cause that there to be barriers, right. And it could mean that your, your boyfriend, your, your partner, sorry, says I don't mind and I'm not going to say anything to mum. And it could mean that you decide, well, I'm not going to go and I'm not going to hang out with with your mom anymore, because it is not appropriate for me to be hearing those things. And I really wish that, you know, you could stand up to her or whatever. The you know, there's so many different scenarios that could be going on here. But really, we need to be laying down those those consequences, whatever they are, whether it's you're saying something, you're changing the subject, you're getting up and walking away, you're spending less time with her, you know, just starts closed there's a real that me and some have made where it's like how to respond to fat folks. And it's a funny thing, like and one of them was I bent over and started you know, making my bum, my bum cheeks move and bid and being like, man, you know, just stupid like you're not going to do that but you could do that. Or just say stop or whatever. You can come up with many different things that you can say and and also Oh, understanding there might be some situation here where doing those things might not be appropriate because there might be some power imbalance. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, let's move on to our next one, which is my best friend is st sized. And in the past, she and I have engaged in very disordered conversations around food and weight loss. I have recently been trying to reframe my thoughts around my plus size body, and focus on my health, physical and mental rather than my Wait. My friend, however, continues to make comments like, I feel so fat and disgusting today. I finally told her how these comments make me a person who is objectively much larger than her feel terrible. And she has accused me of gaslighting her and making it so she can't say anything about her own feelings, for fear of upsetting me. I want her to be able to express herself to me, and I'm trying to find a middle ground help.

Unknown Speaker 46:06

Yeah, so first off, this is this is, you know, kind of like what we've been talking about. We in the past, you have engaged in disordered conversations. Right. And so, so this is kind of like growing pains. And you say you've recently been trying to. And so this is, you know, it's a recent thing. And so this is kind of growing pains. And so we're going to have to help her and you know, understand for you as well, what is okay and what is not okay, and I would love to pick your friend's brain about you know, shoot her saying that the you are gaslighting her. And when I read that I was like, Okay, what I suspect is happening for her. Obviously, I don't know, I'm not talking to her. What I suspect is she's hearing something that you're not saying, I suspect she's hearing something like, Hey, friend, you can never feel bad about your body because my body is bigger. Which invalidates her feelings. And I'm sure that's not what you set. But you know, us humans are so good at making it about ourselves, right, making us to blame because if we are the fall, and we are bad than we can fix it, right? And so, you know, especially if you're bringing in say, hey, when you say this, this makes me feel bad. She's wondering, she's probably gonna get defensive and kind of maybe misunderstand what you're saying. And what we're trying to say here is that talking about fat as a negative, is difficult to hear, especially from people who are smaller, as it contributes to the idea that your body is particularly bad, because it's bigger. Even though your friend isn't saying that she's saying about her, she still is framing fatness as a negative, it might be appropriate for your friend to say, I'm really struggling with my body image today. And I'm sure that that sounds a lot better, right? If your friend said, Hey, I'm really struggling with my body image today. But she's not she's saying I feel fat, and disgusting. Therefore, fat is disgusting. And saying that as someone who is living in a privilege privilege body. And the reason why that's inappropriate, aside from aligning fat with disgusting, is that it raises your experience of living in a bigger body and the very real stigmatization and marginalization that you experience, because of your body size, right? Everyone can have the potential for having terrible body image for hating themselves, no matter their size. But the difference is, it's only people who have marginalized bodies and in this example, a fat body that experiences systemic oppression when they go out into the world, so a straight size person is not going to have to also deal with feeling shit so because anyone can feel shamed about their body, but also then not be able to buy clothes. You know, but also then have the doctor say yeah, you are too fat, you need to lose weight, but also then not be able to find a date because only 25% of sis hat men would date a fat sis hat woman. So it's like this added layer and and we're not talking about like, oh, straight sides. People don't have their bad side. Straight size people can struggle so much with body image, it could be deadly for them. And I think maybe when your friend said, I feel like you're gaslighting me, that could be maybe what she's feeling of you don't understand how hard this is for me. And we want to understand that it is body image stuff is devastating. And we can be less black and white with our thinking about it. We can think okay, well then how does it affect others if I am talking negatively about their marginalized identity? You know, because I feel like your friend would be able to understand that that difference between you saying that her saying that fat is bad and you saying hey, don't say that fat is bad. So I think if we were to have the conversation with her about power and privilege, and fat politics, that could be helpful. And acknowledging that struggling with body image issues is a very real battle for many, many people and can be very painful. But the difference is that fat people also have to deal with the very real lived reality being in a bigger body in a society that villainize is fatness. So, again, you can make it about you and not about her not that she's, you know, we can say, hey, I want your help. And the thing is, she needs to get used to this new language that you're speaking. She needs to get used to the idea that anti fatness is never acceptable. I mean, if I if I was friends with her, and she said, I feel so fat, and disgusting. And I was friends with her and say, I didn't do this job. Immediately. I be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's going on? What do you mean, you feel so fat and disgusting? Hello, I'm a fat person. And what does that mean? What you think about my body? And then she's, I don't know, I think you look weird. But, you know, you know, that, that, you know, if they suddenly got my body, they'd be like, Oh, I'm so fat, you know? So and it is about them, right? It is about them, you know, and then how they feel but really, they're less throwing you under the bus in the process of trying to express themselves. So I would if that happened to me, I'd say hey, you know what, when you say you feel fat, using fat as a feeling word is not appropriate because you are in sin you insinuating that fatness is bad. And that fatness is disgusting. And then it's not appropriate, because we were out here trying to be you know, when we don't do anti fat anymore, that's like really 2013. So, I'd love to hear about how you're struggling with body image issues. But or you can say you know what, I don't want to hear about your stroke you struggling with body image issues because I'm not in that place right now where I can hear it because you live in a bit in a smaller body. It can be very difficult for a fat person to hear a straight size person say that they think that an attractive when society says that they are attractive, when you are experiencing so much shit because of the body that you're living in. And so some fat people do say to their straight size friends, I love you. But unfortunately, because of where I am at with my body image journey, and because I don't have the spoons, okay, the mental energy, I cannot talk to you about body image. I support you, I really wish that you the very best on your journey. But that's just one thing that I find very difficult to talk about because of the privilege imbalance in this relationship. The privilege the body size privilege, and that is okay, too. I mean, it's pretty it's I mean, it is obnoxious to be in a thin body complaining about how fat you are to it to a fat person. I mean, it's pretty cringy right. But it's so normal. We mean, we've probably all done it. We probably still do it today, you know, like it's so normal, but it shouldn't be and by the way, you know, I was saying hey, well we're whoa you know someone's But that to me, obviously, I'm a fat activist. Like, I'm so used to talking about this stuff. And I have it on the tip of my tongue. Right? I don't expect anyone else to be doing that. But knowing that, from my perspective, my perspective, it's not okay. At all. Not even close to Okay.

Unknown Speaker 55:25

Yeah, so so so we're just respond to that one summarizing that is, I think maybe clarifying what you mean. clarifying that, you know, about anti fatness and why saying your she feels fat is not appropriate. And also saying that you deeply empathize with her in regards to her body image issues, and her body image issues are very real, no matter what her size is. And it's very important that she is able to overcome that stuff, if you want to, you know, and that she's important, her feelings are important. But also, her feelings are important, but she can't throw you under the bus in trying to express them. Okay, so I had a little question box for the kind of like, short little questions here. Someone just sent in mother in law that was it. Just a mother in law. I was like, huh, yeah, yeah. And I think as well with mother in law, it's it's difficult because it's not your mom, right? Your mom, it's kind of like there is theoretically unconditional love. But with your mother in law, the relationship is difficult, right? She can tell you to fuck off. I mean, your mom could it anyway. But their relationship is difficult. And you kind of have to be polite. And depending on your your culture, or where you're from there could be that really kind of, you know, respecting your elders to the point where the elders can be deeply disrespectful for you to you and abusive to you, but you can't say anything because it's a culture. Yeah, so if you are dealing with a mother in law that is happy to be displaying body bigotry, then I am so sorry that you have to deal with that. Okay, someone else says here whenever I eat something, quote, healthy people accuse me of dieting. I'm anti diet and hated. Yeah, so that's fucked up. Ira roll. I mean, people can't get away with eating anything now without someone having some type of opinion that they want to express right? If that person eats a salad, Oh, really. But you don't eat salads often or but you're doing that just for a performance? Or? Oh, are you trying to lose weight good for you ever eating a salad like you've never eaten a salad before? Or if you eat something that is quote unquote, unhealthy, then oh, surprise, surprise, and no matter you're fat, or if you even if you're straight size, and you're eating something, quote unquote, unhealthy, then, oh, you've been naughty, you know? Just keep your opinions about what someone is eating to yourself. Unless you want to be like, Oh, that looks delicious. Can I try? So I'm you know, you would be doing that to a random stranger. Maybe you would. But for me if someone said to me, Oh, are you dieting? I didn't like No. No. And I explained why I'm anti diet. I'm anti diet. And actually, it's really inappropriate that you would ask me that and talk about food. Depending on your like your relationship with that person. I mean, Fuck if I was a being a salad and someone says, oh, you dieting I might, you know, grab a fistful of salad and just be like that. Now, I'm not dieting. Yeah. So there that might be. That might be a an opportunity, depending on your relationship with that person for a little bit of education, about how it's inappropriate to talk about anyone's food, and presuming that they're dieting. Why you're presuming that that person is dieting? Yeah. Okay. Someone says coworkers, mine are brutal. They never say anything about me. But constant diet talk. It's rough. Yeah. So that's the thing is, is it's a lot harder when they're not saying something about you directly. But that kind of art, right? So with co workers, that's another thing is because you can't just go in there and just do some roundhouse kicks and just be like, shut up, Sharon. You might get fired. And so you could approach this in a few different ways. It could be that you send an email to HR and say, Hey, can we institute a no diet talk policy because blah, blah, blah. HR might be like, Oh, why would you do that being fat is bad. You know, you're you might not have HR? It could be that you just have a conversation with your work colleagues and say, Hey, can we not with a diet talk? You could do any of the things that we spoke about earlier about changing the subject, you could, you know, question them you know, if people were talking about diet So I might be curious about like, why do you want to be thin? Like, why do you want to lose weight? Why, but why? We want to be thin and we want to be, it's not healthy to be fat. Is it? Like, where did you get the idea from? Did you know? And so eventually, they'd know that. Why would we talk about that in front of Vinny? She's such a party pooper. They're just, they're such a party pooper. And it could be that you explain to them hey, you know, I've had a history with history of disordered eating. And so when people hear talk about diets, it's really bad for my mental health. It could be that you just get up from the table. Anytime someone talks about dieting, it could be that you put in your headphones and just press the play button when they start talking about dieting. But another thing could be that you ask a manager or HR to bring in a professional like me to teach about anti diet pro fatness, and that's something that I do, right, this part of my businesses is going into organizations and teaching about fat phobia. And I talk about diet talk at the lunchtime, and it feels so fucking satisfying. To be saying, Hey, this is not okay. And for, you know, people would have been like, oh, shit, when I do that all the time. You know, it feels so good to be protecting folks, by talking about that stuff. Someone else here I said, I asked a question. Does anyone have any tips, someone said that they made their own presentation on fat phobia and presented it to the organization. And now they are the lead mental health now they're their mental health team lead organized in my organization is what they said. So it could be that they you know, there's no budget to bring someone like me and but you are going to do it yourself. And then you explain like, why is this harmful? You know, what, what, what is all this about? My father in law comments on my four year olds, body and food choices every time were there. Yeah. So that is boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And also, you know, with a remove reduced protect, it could be that, you know, father in law said that you're never gonna see them again. You know, we've decided that but also you want to talk to your child about what happened, okay? So you might, you will not be able to protect children from being exposed to anti fat bias. But what you can do is help them understand how it's not okay? By talking to them about that, how that made them feel, and all that type of stuff. Someone asks, mum thinks fat is ugly and doesn't want to be fat. She says it's because she always liked beauty. How do I respect her body autonomy without passively supporting her fat phobia? Yeah. So your mom has an opinion, which is based on a belief and beliefs are not facts. It's not a fact that fat is ugly. It's an opinion. Okay. So I might say to mom, hey, did you know that there are many people who think that being fat is absolutely beautiful, and I happen to be one of them. Sometimes when you talk about how you don't want to be fat, it hurts me in these ways. It makes me worried that you're not going to love me if I'm fat. It makes me anxious that you're judging my body. I mean, if you I don't know if your mom's fat or not. But you know, I, I would probably have that conversation about how it affects you. And if she wants to continue to dye it or be thin or hate being fat. I don't know what her body size is. You know, that's fine. She can do that. But what she can't do is harm you in the process. Even if you have a small body. This stuff is harmful, right? It's this indoctrination of anti fatness, this slow drip. That is, you know, we might say hi. Is it a big deal? Sometimes it's not. Sometimes you might be like, Ah, whatever. But sometimes it is and for those who are struggling with body image stuff. Almost always they have a parent or a sibling or friends who are big into anti fatness that that really influences them. And I'm like, Okay, well, that is a great opportunity to, to sort that out. Because it's probably going to really help you. Yeah, so I would in that situation, talk to mom and say, hey, you know, I understand that you think that that's the fact it's not actually a fact. And this is how it's negatively affecting me. Is there anything I can do to support you in it? accepting your body the way it is. And if she wants to continue to do whatever, in regards to her body, that's her choice, right? Okay, finally one mother in law justifies herself as whenever she eats something she thinks she should be eat, she shouldn't be eating. Well, I never eat junk food like this usually. So I guess one time is okay. When literally no one commented.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:26

Yeah, so I might go with the Hey, mother in law, I'm wondering if you can help me with something. I'm I'm trying to unlearn harmful beliefs around food. And so talking about junk food, quote, unquote, I've noticed is not great for my mental health. I'm wondering if you can avoid talking about that. It could be that when you when Mother Nora says junk food. And talking about like, it sounds like you struggle with allowing yourself to have have certain foods, you know, are you okay? Can we help you with that? Or, you know, or you could come back with some type of sassy thing of like, you know, when she's like, Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm being so bad. You were like, you know, you didn't just, you know, murder again, guinea pig, you know, you're not actually doing anything bad. You're just eating food like a human. Yeah. So when that stuff happens around me, I genuinely ask questions. And, you know, who knows how it goes. But you know, if I ask questions, I know that I'm going to ask questions again, next time that they talk about it. And so then they're less likely to do it. And you know, with other people in my life, I've already set boundaries. And so it's not often I get these experiences. It's only when I'm meeting new people.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:48

So, so yeah. What do you think? What do you think? How are you feeling? I

Unknown Speaker 1:06:53

hope you feel like you can. I know. Set boundaries, if it's if it's appropriate. And also, I want you to forgive yourself, if you if you don't say something in the moment, and then afterwards, you're like, Shit, I could have really like, said this thing. And that would have changed everything. And you know, they would never do it again. And I didn't I just sat there and smiled and nodded. You know, I mean, this stuff is fucking hard. I've been doing this for years. All right. So I want you to, you know, know that this is a process. This is a lifelong, right. And also, it's not appropriate that you're exposed to this stuff, especially from people who you see a lot who you're close to. Who that who you love and who love you, is really, really upsetting and can be very impactful to your mental health. You deserve to have safety in your relationships with with whoever. And it sucks that we're the one having to do this fucking work. It is not fair. It is not fair that we are the ones having to to fucking work so hard to be treated fairly. Get some my fucking tits, huh? All right, well, I'm gonna leave it there for you today. Again, if you want to go to Dominican Republic with me go check out the link in the show notes or go to the link in my bio on Instagram first dot fatti. And we'll see you I guess actually, I'll probably see you in the new year now because I'm me and me and my team are taken off two weeks, the end of the year. And let's see, we're going to take off the week of the 19th and the week of the 26th. So yeah, so probably there's not going to be another podcast until beginning of January. So So actually, so this is good timing because then if we were doing stuff with the holidays, then you know, be prepared. And remember that remove reduced protect. There's a link in in the show notes where you can find a an image for that. So you can refer to that. And yeah, just give yourself a lot of a lot of love and hugs around this stuff. And have a wonderful rest of your day or night or afternoon or whatever.