Episode 196 Transcript

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast, episode 196 - Fat Monica and Other Fat Tropes in Media. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby, pronounced they/them. Let's do it.

Hello. Welcome to this episode. So pleased to see see you. I can't see you, so please do your hair. Hey, listen now, if you like the show and you've listened to it before and got anything from it, then why don't you check out my Ko Fi page, Kofi Fierce Fatty, and you can make a donation there or you can even subscribe and get some free things. If you do that, if you want to, and if you don't, that's cool. If you just want to talk, talk about fat tropes and fat moniker, then that's cool. Let's. Let's do that. But if you do want to go to Ko Fi, the link is going to be in the show description. Before we start, I want to give a trigger warning because I'm going to be showing you actual clips from a few examples of anti fatness in media, one of them being from seven the Gluttony Scene. And so if you are not up for analyzing anti fat bias in media today, then I would say skip this episode or skip the bit when we get to the Gluttony scene, because I think that's particularly egregious. We're going to talk about fat Monica first, and then we're. Then we're going to go to the seven Gluttony thing and then we're going to talk about Fat Slags, which is a British, British cartoon thing. Yeah, I said fat Slags. That's what the British cartoon is. Yeah. So fucked up. So, yeah, you make the decision if you want to hear this stuff. I've just been spending the afternoon watching these things and I'm just, you know, eyeballs are rolling, head shaking, like, ugh, grossness. And also I'm feeling deep empathy for young Vinnie because these three specific characters that I'm showing are three things that I saw when I was young. And I so deeply internalize these mess that we're seeing from these specific characters. Right. That I was just like, I just cannot be like that. Because that is what fatness is. That is what we as a society think of. Fatness. Yeah. So just to start, I'm saying fat tropes in media. Just a definition on the word trope. Trope, a word or expression used in a figurative sense or a common or overused theme or device. And that's what we're talking about today a common or overused theme or device. So I've made this spreadsheet. I got on an ADHD kick, and I made a spreadsheet with 18 different fat tropes that I could think of. Just off the top of my head, what those fat tropes are saying and some examples, at least one example of the fat tropes. I want to continue filling it in and adding more examples of fat tropes. Thing is, I know more examples of fat tropes from earlier media. So media from the 2000s, from earlier before that, and maybe a little bit after that. Because I would watch things without thinking, is this going to be harmful? Whereas now if I saw something where someone was wearing a fat suit or there was some fat character in the trailer and they're all like, they're fat. I just wouldn't watch the thing. So I made a reel and put it on the Instagrams with four of these tropes. And people were sharing the comments being like, oh, yeah, what about this? What about this? What about this? So after this episode, I'm gonna make another, like, a robust post with examples of each of the. The main tropes that we see. But we're going to be talking about that today as well. I'm not just going to do it in the Instagram post, but if you're interested in being able to easily share this stuff. Also, by the way, it might be better if you can, to watch the video of this podcast on YouTube. I know YouTube might serve you adverts if you don't have the paid account. I don't have adverts on YouTube, but because we're going to be watching them, but I am going to just be scribing the. Describing the videos that we're watching as well. So you don't need to. So you'll just hear the audio from the video, and then I'll be talking about what's actually happening in the video. All right, all right. Okay. Let me, before we start going in, watching these examples, tell you some of the main tropes that I see in media. And again, tropes, stereotypes of fat people in media. So first is the fat person being unintelligent. So a lot of fat characters are unintelligent, incompetent, ignorant. They're going to get themselves killed or others injured or killed because of their unintelligence. And a number one example of this the whole character is based on it is the Simpsons, Homer Simpson. Homer Simpson is the just ultimate Unintelligent, greedy loser. Right. I don't know if you ever watched the Symptoms Simpsons, but I remember one episode where he, he got really fat and he was wearing a moomoo because obviously fat people just wear moo moos. And he left a. A pecking, like a pecking duck or something to do his job. Cause he was so lazy. And then there was some nuclear disaster. I need to go back and I need to go back and watch the episode. I don't want to, but, you know, I want to get my references right. But the idea that he's just so stupid his job can be automated by a pecking duck thing. And because he's just decided to be so fat and out of control, fatter than he normally is. Yeah. The next trope is the funny sidekick. Now this is so common, right? So that would be someone who. You don't see character development from them. They're just this happy. Go lucky. They're there for comic relief to support the main thing character. And if you think about Pitch Perfect and Fat Amy, that is like a funny sidekick. A lot of. What is her name, the actor? Fat Amy? Dee Dee. Her name is Rebel Wilson. A lot of Rebel Wilson's roles are fat, funny sidekick. Right. So the idea of a fat person has to be there to do something extra, to entertain in some way. They can't just be a boring bog standard character. Not always. But this is a trope, right? That you're the fat funny sidekick. You're there to make the main character's story more colourful and make their character more interesting. So next, the loser. The loser. The fat loser. They're a loser because they're fat. They don't have friends, They're a sad sack. Perhaps they've never been outside. Perfect example of this is the movie the Whale. I mean, it's just, you know, the whole idea that fatness is just an inherently depressing feature. You know, if you're fat, you're a loser. Next. Dirty. So we're going to look, by the way, we're going to look at these clips and then you're going to see how so many of these tropes are in these clips. Dirty. So they're going to be probably oblivious of their dirt and their smell. They're going to smell. They won't shower. They have food stains down their top. They're wearing clothes that are dirty or poor people's clothes. So like a vest, sweating trousers, track bottom, sweat pants, whatever they're called, they're going to be stained. They're going to be ripped or have holes in them. Definitely food stains and likely to have food somewhere. Maybe on their face, in their hair. They might have lost a food item in their flesh. They, if they have breasts, then they would have lost something huge down there. So it's not gonna be like, oh, I would a crumb fell down my top. It'll be like, oh, a whole chicken. Like the joke is that you're so fat, are you eating a chicken? You're eating multiple chickens. Cause you're so fat and you're so fat and dirty and you're not aware of your body that a chicken can fall under your tits. Yeah. An example of that is the gluttony guy from seven, the movie that we're gonna watch that. We're gonna watch that shortly. The next one, the food obsessed, constantly eating fat person. So this is so common, this is so common. How many times we see, we get introduced to the fat character. They're surrounded by food. They're eating a large quantity of food. And then the food that they're. They're eating in their eyes is a tiny quantity and they don't want to share that food. They're a food hoarder. They've probably got an eating disorder too. And the beating disorder is that they have binge eating disorder. Yeah. So an example of this was Fat Bastard from Austin Powers, I think Fat Bastard and other. I mean, even just the name, his name is Fat Bastard. And others can be multiples. Right. So Fat Bastard, he's also a villain. And so villain is another one of them. And a lot of times you'll see multiple tropes in just one character. Other ones never exercised, of course, the Biggest Loser, an example of framing fat people who've never exercised. Even if the fat people, fat contestants on the Biggest Loser have exercised, they make them do such extreme exercise that it makes them look like they're all incredibly out of shape and non athletic. But any person, I think even an athlete, a professional athlete, could go into the Biggest Loser house and be struggling and vomiting just as much as the fat people. Because that's what they want to see. Right. Next, rich and greedy. You know, there's two tropes when it comes to rich people. They're fat or they're Jewish. Both of them based in bias. And so Jewish will be. There'll be some nods to Jewishness, for example, a big nose. So they might not say out, this is a Jewish character, but there'll be nods to Jewish. Jewish type characteristics. And then with the fat People. If you just think about the tr. If you thought about two rich, greedy, hoarding type people, it would be a fat person. And then you'd have a thin person who looks Jewish with like a monocle or something like that. And the assumption is that it's by their nature that they hoard wealth, which is a trope about Jewish people. And the trope about fat people is that we hoard and we hoard things when we don't need them. And in this instance our body is evidence that we don't need any more. There's a clip if you're interested, which it just epitomizes this so disgustingly, which is Mr. Creosote or Creosote Monty Python. If you just look that up. It's a comedy sketch comedy in. In quotation marks where a rich person just keeps ordering more and more and more food and then he vomits. Like I don't know what the. Like that doesn't sound funny, right? But the joke is, haha. He's so rich and fat that he'd so out of control that he just eats so much food that he vomits. And he's just so disgusting. And I think he then vomits over the guests from my what? My memory serves me. Yeah. And it's really like laid on thick of how greedy and gross and disgusting this person is. Next we have the sexless frump. So the sexless front would be like, I'm 40 and I've never been kissed. Who would want to kiss me? And they would wear like only frumpy clothes and they have low self worth. An example of this is you remember the movie Shallow Hal with Jack Black and what's her face. Culty dickhead, wellness influencer Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth Paltrow. A lot of these people are wearing these characters as well are wearing fat suits, right? Wearing a fat suit plays this sad sack, never been kissed type. I used to fucking love that movie. That movie. I would look at it and be like, maybe one day I can get someone like Jack Black who's been hypnotized by what's his name, the creepy giant guy that does Tony Robbins, who's a sexual predator. Maybe I'll be. Maybe I'll find a man who's been hypnotized by Tony Robbins in an elevator to see the real beauty in me.

Fuck. Oh, I used to be so scared that. So in Shallow Hal, one of the scenes is that Rosemary's in bed and she throws her underwear to Jack Black. Can't remember. His character's called Hal, I guess. She throws her underwear to Hal, and Hal picks it up and the underwear is so huge, you know, like he's picking it up and it's literally the size of a bathrobe, you know, like this thong or whatever. And he's like, what the heck? How did you do that? Because what he's seeing is the real Gwyneth Paltrow in bed. And the joke is that her underwear is so huge. It's. It's the. The size. It's just so like this. It looks like a bungee cord or something. And it's like, oh, that's so funny because she's fat and she wears big underwear. Oh, that's so funny. I used to be so frightened that a. A partner of mine would pick up my underwear and be like, what? You know, and they wouldn't have that hallucination of that. I was a thin person, but they'd pick up my underwear and be like, what the heck? This is so huge because of that scene from Shallow Hal. So I'd want to be hiding my underwear just in case that happened. So fucked up, man. You know, you think, are these things. Are we being too sensitive? Are we overreacting to these things? No. These portrayals of fat people in media are so harmful. So harmful. The next one is hyper sexualized predator. It's the like, come here, boys, Mama's gonna eat you up. You know, I don't need consent. And then you'll have a thin, attractive man being like, oh, my God, I need to run away from this fat predator. I felt this so much. I thought that I had to act like a hyper sexual predator in order to trick men into being interested in me, that I had to really come on thick, you know, just really, like, fill them up and kind of. Yeah, coerce. Coerce them into being with me. Because of representations in media of. Of. Of fat people being desperate, hypersexual predators. And on the other hand, you've got the sexless frump, just. And normally the sexual sexless front person is a little bit younger. And the hypersexualized predators, they're a bit older. They would be what people would say is like a cougar or something. That's another, you know, stereotype of an old, older woman can't get a date, so they turn into predators. Yeah. So the hypersexualized predator thing, we're going to see that in Fat Slags. Fat Slags are two characters that are in a comic book called Viz. Which was it's like a comic book for adults. But, you know, kids saw it as well. The other ones, we won't go into them in too much detail, but another one is a trope is the only character trait is their body size and they hate themselves. And so the whole character arc is I'm a fat loser and I hate myself. And my whole storyline is just about me hating my fat body. I didn't watch the end of the TV show this Is Us. The character Kate, when I first started it in season one, that was her story. And I was just like, nope. I was really excited to watch a fat character. I think she's like more medium large size fat character, an actual fat character in a TV show. And people were like, this is us is great when it came out. And it was just, just eye rolling, just boo hoo hoo, I'm fat. I'm fat and terrible. And of course, you know, many fat people are like, feel like that. But the issue is when this is all we're seeing, this is all we're seeing of fat people eating, hating themselves, having dysfunctions around sex, unintelligent dirty loser, no friends, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Then also the other thing is that a fat person might be on a diet redemption arc. So they are going to lose weight to become themselves and become worthy and dateable and lovely and stuff. Another one is the coward. Now Nedry from Jurassic park is a good example of this. And also sprinkling on that too is the super nerd. So like the it geek Nedry from Jurassic Park. This is from the original Jurassic Park. He was like a coward, a villain. He also used to eat a lot. He was just an unlikable character who caused the whole thing, right from my memories, he caused it all. And then he ran away. And eventually he met his fate with the dinosaurs. That movie fucked me up too. I remember watching that movie. My mom had a boyfriend at the time and he rented Jurassic park and we would never get to watch movies, you know, we'd never have like a rental movie or anything like that. And so it was a big deal. And he rented Jurassic Park. And within the first, like five seconds in the movie, like a man gets eaten by a dinosaur that they're trying to transport. And I was like, no. Just ruined my life. That movie is so scary, I couldn't even watch it now. Probably because it's too scary. I'm such a baby, honestly. Actually, no, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna retract that I'm not a baby. I'm just a sensitive, sensitive, lovely human. So there you go. Other tropes. American tourist, who is obnoxious, unintelligent, but also cheerful. And likely they're from the South. A lot of these themes around fat people is that fat people are poor and unintelligent. And then they have all have a regional accent to denote that they're poor and unintelligent. And being poor and unintelligent and fat is bad according to these tropes, right? The villain. So Ursula is a great example of a villain. Even Ursula targets this young, thin, wonderful Ariel. Ariel. I don't know. I've not really watched it. Trying to take her voice, right? Trying to take something from her. Because Ursula is evil. Although, I mean, I haven't seen any of the. I won't know what. I won't watch a lot of Disney stuff. We didn't get to watch it as kids anyway because we were poor. But also, I won't watch a lot of Disney things because it's too sad. I can't handle it because I'm so sensitive. These Disney movies, I'll tell you what, if someone says, have you seen so and so? I'm like, no fucking way. I'm not watching it. Someone dies, a beloved character will die. I don't know, like a grandma, like a mother, like a dog, like a. I watched. The last time I watched a Disney or Pixar movie was the one with the feelings inside out. And what was it? Bingo Bongo died or whatever the name of that character destroyed me. How long ago was that? That was like 10 years ago. Never. No. Not doing it again. How do the kids watch these and not become traumatized like I am from watching the. The video? The film that I watched as a kid was Dumbo. That's fucked up, man. The amount of times I watched that scene where Dumbo is. Is. Is snuggling in his mother's trunk as she is caged up singing the song Baby, Be Mine. I need to go. I need to talk to my therapist about this. I'm fucked up by this stuff. Baby mine don't you cry. I think as well, because I was sad because I was abandoned by my mum. And so I'd watch it and cry. Oh, God. Anyway, so I think I definitely need to go to therapy and talk about Dumbo, how it ruined my life. Another trope is being the butt of fat jokes and being just, like, taking it. I've started watching Lost. I think a lot of people have started watching Loss because. Because Netflix has put it on their main page. I started watching Loss and there's a fat character in it. And he's a. He's a very fat guy. Amazing. Love it. What's his storyline? He's fat. And guess what his storyline is. I don't wanna. I don't wanna ruin it for anyone who's not seen it, but, I mean, come on, Lost came out like 20 years ago, so you haven't seen it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna tell you one of his stories, lines, one of his storylines. Okay, guess before I tell you what is one of the storylines of the fat character and the on Lost is he's stuck on a desert island. They're all stuck on a desert line island after a plane crash. Okay, have a little think. What's this storyline? Yep. Addicted to food and hoards food. Yep. How did you know? How did you know? Of course. And it's just. It's. It didn't. I didn't. I think that story cut line came up until the second season and I was like, oh, oh, are they gonna do it? They were still making fat jokes. But I thought maybe this might be a, you know, a character that food and fatness is not his whole character. Then they brought in this storyline of him hoarding food. And I was like, fuck's sake. Really? I haven't finished watching Lost, so I hope at the end it turns out that, you know, he gets some good stuff. Cause he just comes across as, you know, just the butt of the joke all the time. I want Hurley to be like, listen up, what's his name? Sawyer. Hey, Sawyer, why don't you go fuck yourself? Don't ever fucking talk to me again, you piece of shit. You antifat bigot. And then that's the. Sawyer is the main guy that makes the jokes about him. That's what I want. That's what I want Hurley to do. Let's see what happens. I think I'm on season four, so he's got two seasons to tell. What's his face to fuck off. Okay. And then we've got the mammy character. The mammy character is normally a black person. Could be a brown person, less likely to be a white person. But it is an older woman with big bosoms, wearing a dress, a frock, who is. Who is stern, but also then loving, and acts as a falling into the soft bosom of this caring character who has a bit of sass. And we've got the honorable mention to the thin Fat person. The thin fat person is a fat character who's played by a thin person. Think Bridget Jones's diary. When Bridget Jones's diary came out and we were all like, whoa, she's so fucking fat. And then we look back now and we're like, what? It's a straight sized, very attractive woman, like thinking that she's fat and all of us thinking that she's fat. Yeah. And the other thing someone else mentioned was the fat person who loses weight and becomes vapid. So the fatness is what made their personality great and then losing weight makes them vapid. So let's do some examinations of this stuff. And we're starting with fat Monica. Because I feel like fat Monica is the most recognizable for a lot of people depending on your age. Fat character. That fucked a lot of us up. So let's watch this video and I'm going to then describe it for those who are not. And I'm going to talk about analyze it as well.

Over here, dad. Wait, how do you zoom out?

There she is.

Some girl ate. Monica, shut up. The camera adds 10 pounds, huh? So how many cameras are actually on you? Oh, you look so great.

What are you so beautiful.

Oh, what? Shoot. I think I got mayonnaise on you.

Oh, that's okay. It's just the shoulder. It's not my dress. Everybody smile.

Oh, dad, turn it off.

It is off, dad. It is not.

What's with a red light?

Okay, so what we see here is that Monica comes into the shot and the camera is zoomed in on Monica's side stomach. And they have to zoom out because she's so allegedly gargantuan that she feels a whole frame. And when we zoom out, we see a small fat person. I remember seeing fat moniker and being like, wow, she's really fat. So when I watched this stuff when I was, I don't know, 15, 10, 20, however old, I was being like, wow, she was really fat. And now as a someone who is has been in fat liberation for 10 years, I'm like, no, she's a small fat person. What the. Obviously she's wearing a fat suit. And zoom out, she's eating a sandwich. So funny. Sandwich in her hand, which she then tucks into because what is the joke? Fat people are always eating. And then she goes and hugs Rachel and she gets mayonnaise on her shoulder. You know, the joke here is that fat people are food obsessed slobs. You know, they've got this, they're going for prom and they're in their nice Outfits. But fat Monica can't help but getting mayonnaise all over Rachel. And then later in this scene, which I'm not showing is Monica's date. Which it's surprising that she has a date. But Monica's date is a short, fat guy. You know, they're not gonna give Monica the handsome guy and Monica's, like the sidekick, right? To Rachel. So we're not gonna see that. Let's look at another video. This one is. There was. I think there was an episode where they reimagined their futures. Like, what if. I think this is. What if Monica never lost weight from my recollection. So let's. Let's watch that.

Tonight was. Was going to be my first time with Roger. Not just with Roger. Oh, my God. All right, relax, mister. I've had sex four times. Four different women. I've had sex way more times. How many? Nine. Just waiting for the perfect guy. Well, good. Good for you. You really think that Roger's the perfect guy? No, he's not a horrible guy. Hey, that's what I tell girls about me. Chandler, I'm gonna die a virgin. No, you are not. You are sweet and wonderful, and this is gonna happen for you. No, really Win. You wanna do it with me? Okay.

Okay. So they're at the dinner table with food. And Monica is fat. Therefore, she's never had sex. Right. Sex. Us, frump. And the guy that she's going to or she hopes to have sex with she describes as just okay. Because fat people are desperate and will have sex with anyone if they want to have sex with us. But, you know, it's been however old she is and she hasn't had sex. Fat people settle for what they can get. Let's watch the rest of this clip. Oh, yeah. Chandler. Yeah, that's the couch.

So Monica and Chandler decide to have sex and Monica turns off the lights. The implication is that she is ashamed of her body because she's fat. Of course she's not gonna have sex with the lights on. And, um. And then the punchline of this is that Chandler is feeling up the couch because a fat body is indistinguishable from soft furnishings. The other side of the joke is that Chandler is inexperienced and, you know, doesn't know. But that, again, feeds into the anti fat idea that fat people will just have sex with anyone. And so this clueless guy is who Monica decides to have sex with and a clueless guy who's been cruel to her in the past that we know about. So her body feels indistinguishable from the couch. And this is dehumanizing. Monica, dehumanizing is saying that people are objects. So she is not human anymore. She is a sofa. I really remember this. I remember watching this and I remember thinking, oh, God, is that going to happen to me? Is a man going to feel my body and be like, I cannot tell the difference between your body and the couch because your body feels so lumpy and, you know, unhuman. Ugh. It's so funny and funny. It's so sad how these jokes, they, they, you know, for many people, it manifests into fears and then, and then it kind of manifests into these stereotypes of sad, fat, loser, low self esteem. Because that's what we're seeing. We're seeing that this is how you should behave as a fat person. You shouldn't have self esteem because there's something wrong with you. You'd be lucky to have someone to have sex with, so you should take anything, even if they think that your body feels like a sofa. In the end, fat Monica and Chandler get together. He can overlook her flaws and wants to be with her. So it's shown as like this happy ending. But you know what the happy ending for me would be is that she'd be like, you're a real fucking loser, Chandler. You were a complete dick to me when we were younger. You've never addressed your anti fat bias. Go fuck yourself. See you later. Peace. I'm out. That would be the happy ending. Um, okay, let's go to the next video. Video 3.

Monica, I think Rachel's here. Okay. Happy Thanksgiving.

Not for me. Chip and I broke up.

What? Why? What happened? Well, you know how my parents are.

Out of town and Chips was gonna come over? Yeah.

Yeah. And you were gonna give him, you know, your flower. Monica, can you just call it sex? It really creeps me out when you call it that. Okay, by the way, while we're at it, a guy's thing is not called his tenderness.

Okay? So Monica is called by her mom and she runs in, she's out of breath, holding a can of Diet Coke. Because fat people, we're always eating, we're always consuming, and we're always meant to be on a diet. So she's, she's, you know, got the Diet Coke. And it's funny because clearly it's not working. Again, she's dressed in frumpy style clothing and she appears in her conversation with Rachel to be naive, playing into that sexless frump trope. Let's continue watching the Video.

Ross. Oh, this is Monica. Hi, I'm Ross's little sister. Okay.

So Monica, looking dorky, she's kind of got this dorky look on her face, asks to be introduced to Chandler. And in front of a whole family and her friend Rachel, Chandler looks her up and down and makes a fat joke. I'm Ross's little sister. Yeah. You know, the joke is she's not little. And she smiles and seems totally oblivious because she's unintelligent. She's unintelligent. She doesn't pick up on these cues. She's not sharp witted. And then she looks at him kind of, oh, I fancy you. Kind of hungrily, I want you. Which is the fat sexual predator joke. He's clearly saying, I don't like you. He's disgusted by her. She either doesn't notice or doesn't care. And she's like, mm, I'm gonna get him. That's a fat predator. Fat sexual predator. Okay, let's look at part three.

Hey, Chandler, did you like the macaroni and cheese? Oh, yeah, it was great. You should be a chef. Okay.

So Monica sits on the couch next to Chandler and he does this thing where he mocks that he's being bounced up and down and away from her due to the weight of her sitting next to him. Now this is like a, this doesn't actually happen. But he's, he's like either the joke is that it is happening to the character Chandler and he's mocking that the weight of this character, fat Monica is making him almost bounce off the couch. Or the joke is that she's so fat that I'm gonna make some body movements to show how fat she is. Almost like the action is almost. If you're sat on a bouncy castle and someone came sat next to you, you'd be like, oh, it'd be wobbly. Right? So that's what, what happens. And she's sitting next to him, eager, and he looks annoyed. Then she gets a small compliment. You should be a chef. And is totally overexcited and eager. Desperate. She's desperate.

I may be out with her all night. Dude, don't do that to me. Oh, no, it's cool. You can stay here. My parents won't mind. No, it's not that. I just don't want to be stuck here all night with your fat sister. Hey.

Monica, why don't you finish off these pies?

I don't have any more room in the fridge. No, no, thank you.

Well, Judy, you did it.

She's finally full.

So then we go to Chandler and Ross are drying the dishes after dinner and Ross says that he might be out all night with Rachel, who he fancies. And Chandler says he doesn't want to be stuck here all night with your fat sister. And it's only then that the audience says, ah. The audience reaction isn't, ha, ha, this is so funny. The audience says, ah. And I think that's because Monica has a sad face behind. And then Ross says, hey, all of the other fat jokes we were told to laugh because Monica was not aware that she was being mocked. But we were aware and the audience thought it was funny. But it was only when the. When Monica, all of a sudden, after all of these clues that Chandler thinks she's disgusting, finally picks up on it. Then the audience says, ah. So the audience is empathetic towards her. But just one second later, the audience laughs at another fat joke. Another fat joke where her mother says something really cruel to her. Her mother. So, you know, fuck this guy Chandler. She doesn't know him, she doesn't love him. But then, and then the audience says, aw, one minute late. Her mother makes an awful joke and it's ha, ha, ha again. So the mum shows her two large pies. So these are big pies. I think they're pumpkin pies that are only half eaten. So it's a one big pie. And she casually suggests that she finishes them off because clearly she's fat and she's greedy. And this is a normal comment to make. It's a normal thing. Like it's not like, hey, Monica, I know you don't usually eat like this, but there's some extra cake, do you want some? It's the idea that she always does this. She's fat, and so she eats a whole pie after eating, presumably a whole dinner. And then we assume that because she says no, although she momentarily looks like she's interested. And she's gonna be like, yeah, because she's been shamed by Chandler. She's inspired to lose weight. And I feel like that contributes to the idea of we should be cruel to be kind to fat folks. If Chandler didn't say that, then she wouldn't then be going on this weight loss journey that she goes on. Finally. Then she's then mocked by her dad. Her dad says, well, Judy, you did it. She's finally full. As if her whole life. And I don't know how old Monica's gonna be in this scene, but I think she's about 17. Her whole life 17 years. Her appetite up until this point has been uncontrollable. Judy has finally done it. She's made her full. But the joke is, it's not that Judy has made her full and that Monica is satiated. Cause she could never be satiated. She's fat. It's that she is shamed. And therefore she's now on the right path of weight loss. Okay, so let's go to this next and final clip with Monica so drunk.

That's weird. I had the same number of beers as you and I don't feel anything at all. So, you girls having fun? For your information, ask much. I've lost four pounds. Maybe even five with all the dancing. Somebody order a pizza? Oh, that's me.

Okay, so we have a party scene again. Monica is totally covered up, dressed, frumpy, and she's dancing with Rachel. And Rachel says, oh my God, I'm so drunk. And Monica says, that's weird. As they've both drunk the same and she isn't drunk. And the hilarious joke here is that it takes so much to make a fat person drunk. And Monica is too stupid to know this. Again, she's just clueless. She's clueless. So Chandler comes over and Monica brags about her small weight loss. And that really gives me fat people are so pathetic vibes. Like. Like the audience is meant to be like, huh. Poor Monica. She thinks 4 pounds weight loss is some big difference. But we can still see that she's really grossly fat. She doesn't know any better because she's not smart. That's a fat and pathetic vibe that I really got from that. Which then immediately, that idea that she's unintelligent, she's clueless, that is backed up with surprise, surprise. The fat person has ordered a pizza that's been delivered to the party. And that's so funny. Cause she's fat. Do you get it? It's so funny. Fat people eat pizzas. Oh my God. So she runs off to claim her pizza. She's so excited, right? Then Chandler gets with thin Rachel. Because Monica wouldn't be an object of affection. She was a sidekick to desirable Finn. Rachel. By the way, I've just realized I've done all of these Monica videos and I've not even told you the show. It's Friends. If, if you're not. If. If you're not familiar with it, right? Someone, someone out there is listening, being like, what the is this show? But who the is fat Monica? It's Friends. Friends, the show I used to Watch every Friday night at 9pm Then I grew out of it and I started watching a show called Bottom that was on Friday night at 9pm as well. Yeah. So let's move to 7. Skip this bit and go to the end of the show. If you don't want to hear about this seven, watch seven. This, the scene with gluttony. Okay, you do that now if that's you. But if you're staying. Seven is a movie from the 90s starring Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman. Brad Pitt used to always be like the example to me in my mind of the most gorgeous man. And now him watching these clips with Brad Pitt playing this detective and the things that he's saying, I'm like, how could I have found him attractive when he was saying the things that he's saying in these clips? And I know he's acting, but I saw that as he's being mean. And that's, you know, I want him because of that. Ugh. Just. Oh, young Vinny. Oh, I just want to give you a hug. Okay, so the idea, the premise of seven, it's a thriller, I wouldn't say it's a horror, but there's some horrific things, like disgusting things in it. But the idea is that Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt are detectives and there's a serial killer that's killing people because they've committed the seven deadly sins. Let's see what they are. I can't remember what all of them are. Seven deadly sins. Pride, greed, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony and sloth. So gluttony, what we're gonna have, what we gonna have? We've gonna have a fat person. Because fat people are gluttonous obviously. Don't you know all fat people eat loads of food? Okay, so we're gonna watch this clip here where there's not that much, you can't hear that much audio. But I'm going to describe it. Where they are discovering, it's discovering the Gluttony man's body. So let's watch that and then I'm going to describe what happens.

Better home than gardens. You said this was murder or what.

Guys?

How it's got to be the size of a can of hand. This is in the coronary. I don't know. How about that? Made this case once. Got dead on the ground, knife in his back. Gotta be murdered, right? Fuck. Anyway, big insurance policy involved. Yeah. This guy took the tip of the brain stuck in his own shoulder blades. And he must have screwed up a few times cuz there was Multiples back there. Could you please be quiet? What? Got a bucket here. What's in it? Vomit. Any blood in it? I. I didn't see any. Help yourself. You think it's poison? Not wonderful. Very wonderful. Hody, you thinking it's poison? Somerset girls have got forensics waiting outside. I don't know if we'll all fit them. Whose room light's the problem? Hi. How are you? Hey. Detective Mills, would you go out the officers, question the neighbors. What? Send in, for instance, on your way out, please. He's dead. Thank you, Doctor. Seeing my files, right? Seeing the things I've done? Nope.

Okay, so what we've seen here is detectives walk into this dark, dirty poor person's apartment. There are two TVs, one on top of each other. And one TV is playing a talk show. Because fat people are losers who stay inside and just watch TV. And this person is so despicable that he's watching two TVs at the same time. They look around, the lights are off to make it spooky. And they look around and they see bugs. And Brad Pitt is like, oh, the smell. Brad Pitt says, somebody called Guinness. I think we have a record here. What he's referencing Guinness Book of Records. The record being the size of the decedent, the fat man. Then we go to a shot of the man, and it's from behind. And he's wearing a stained gray white vest. Should be white, but it's gray because he's fat and fat people are slobs. And he sat at a chair at the table, presumably in the kitchen or something like it. And the detective's flashlights skim over his body as the camera slowly zooms in. And it reminds me. This shot reminds me two things. One, that his body is kind of framed as this mountain, this huge mass. The man in real life is a large fat person. Could be a super sized fat person. I don't think that there was prosthetics added to this person. I think it's just a fat actor. Anyway, so the first thing is that he's so huge, he's like a mountain. And the other thing that it reminded me of, the flashlights kind of waving across his body. It reminds me of when you see big monsters in movies like Godzilla or King Kong. You know how it might flash? You got the light flashing. It's just his foot or it's just his eye. You know, that's what it was. It was saying that this person is monstrous. Then we go to a shop that Morgan Freeman shines A light into on the sides of the room and he sees 19 cans of spaghetti sauce stacked up. This greedy person who has 19 cans of spaghetti sauce, very gluttonous. I'm rolling my eyes. I'm like, he just went on a Costco trip. You know, these are like, look how fucking greedy. He's got all of this sauce. Yeah, he's poor. He's trying to save some money. Okay. Brad Pitt says, guy's heart has got to be the size of a canned ham. Which I thought, you know, obviously they're saying he's. Cause he's fat. He's got to be. He's got to have died from fatness. And as well, a size of a canned ham. Using a food reference, describe his beastly heart and that food being a pig. I thought that line was really violent. Then Brad says, if this isn't coronary, well, I don't know, because there's no way a fat person could be fat and alive. And then Freeman continues to serve the room and see more food stacked up. They eventually lift his head. And this is kind of the peak of the scene, the peak of the grotesqueness. It's that shot of his face. His eyes are whited over. And there you can see the dead man with food smeared over his face. And it's like a horror shot of. This is what happens. This is how you're gonna end up. If you're fat, you're gonna have eaten yourself to death. Because at this time they're like, we don't know if it's a murder. You're going to be alone. You're going to have no one. You're just going to be comforted by two TVs. Let's go to the next scene of this. And then this is where we have the autopsy.

He's been dead a long time, and I can tell you with not for poison. Oh, man. How does someone let them so go like that? Took four orderlies just to get him on the table. How'd a fat ever fit out his front door? Please. It's obvious. He must have shut in. Now look at this. See how big this stomach is? And the strange thing is it stretches here. Look at the size of the cardiac orifice. Where the foot. I see what you're pointing at, but that means nothing to me. Okay, he's got lines of distension across the duodenum. And the interior wall is ripped open. This man ate till he burst. He didn't really burst, not all the way. He was hemorrhaging internally. And there was a hematoma in the rectus and the transverse abdominis muscles. So he did die by eating. Yes and no. What about these bruises up here? Well, I haven't figured that out yet. Gun pressed against his head? Pressed hard enough, sure. Fuck, yeah. Marks from the front side, flush with the muzzle. Ladies and gentlemen, we have ourselves a homicide.

Okay, so we see the shot of him on a mortician's table. He's completely naked. It's gratuitous. We see this sometimes in autopsy scenes with beautiful women and seeing their breasts. Right? And seeing them completely naked. The. The reason why we see this is to leer at them, to gawk. And in this instance with the. With the man. It's a freak show type of viewing that we are viewing this man and it's. The man looks like no prosthetics. Let me Google it. Let me just make sure that he is. I can't see information about him, about the actor, but it looks like to me that the. The real actor, he is a fat man. And I've. What I remember from just in my remembering of this is that. I mean, it doesn't look like he's wearing any prosthetics anyway, so. So he's on the mortician's table completely naked, really gratuitous. And he's been hosed down. And the way that he's been hosed down is really reminiscent of a whale. Of a whale being transported and to be kept wet. And, you know, you'll have all those volunteers hosing down the whale. That's what it made me think of. So Brad Pitt says, the dehumanization of this whole fucking scene is disgusting. Brad Pitt says, oh, man, how does someone let themselves go like that? He's like, this man is a fucking murder. Murder victim. Go fuck yourself. And then the mortician, or whatever this person's job Sundays, it took four orderlies just to get him on the table. This scene. I remember watching this scene and just feeling like, what. What about when I die? Are they going to be talking about me like that? Are they going to be saying it's going to take four orderlies? Do you know, it reminds me of someone shared, you know, the healthcare survey that I'm doing? Someone shared in that healthcare survey that a healthcare provider said to them, it's gonna take three of us to lift you, love. It could have been two of us to lift you, love, but it was like it was gonna take two or three of us to lift you, love. And said that to their face. So what are they saying when we're dead or behind our backs? So anyway, then Brad Pitt says, how'd that fat fuck ever fit out his front door? So disgusting. And the man, like the way that he's, he's like a large fat or super sized fat. He was fitted out of his door. And even if he. Cousin, why, even if he couldn't fit out of his door, why is he calling him a fat fuck, talking about him like that? And then Morgan Freeman says, please, it's obvious he was a shut in. Why is it obvious that he was a shut in? Because he's fat. Because he had 19 cans of spaghetti or whatever it was, meat sauce. Because he had two TVs. Why, why was it unobvious that he's just shutting. Then the scene ends with the mortician holding up a large bloody bag saying, look at this, this is how big his stomach is. And then it turns out that he was murdered. I think that depiction of fatness is one of the most violent. One of the most violent because it's just really showing that fatness is this life ending like grotesque thing. Lonely, sad, pathetic, loser. Disgusting, smelly, filthy. Okay, so let's look at our last example. Fat Slags by Viz Lucasade adverts. So this was, this one came out in 1997. Let me just read the blurb from the YouTube channel that I found. This, the YouTube channel that I found. This is called hall of Advertising and it's, it's kind of like feels like hall of Fame adverts. And there, there a blurb says the fat slags go Roger Rabbit. So Roger Rabbit, remember Roger Rabbit, they had the mix of animation with real film. So they're doing the same here. So the fat slags are animated and then you have the real film underneath it. So the fat slags go Roger Rabbit and discover something rotten in their fridge. Low calorie leukosade. Leukoside, for those who don't know it is kind of like it's an energy drink. It came around before Red Bull but it has that same kind of vibes. Like you'd drink it if you were an athlete or something like that. Or my sister drank, used to drink it because she had type 1 diabetes and so she had to drink it if she was had low blood sugar. So anyway, the fat slags discovered discover something rotten in their fridge. Low calorie leukoside. This was the subject of 309 complaints to the ITC. I think ITC is like International Trade Commission, is that right? International BBC. Anyway, whatever it means, it's like, you know, I feel like it might have changed names to something else. Like it's a governing body that controls either advertising or products in the UK. Let's just say that. So we had 309 complaints to the ITC when children started uttering slag. I bet they weren't just saying slag. I bet they were saying fat slag like the ad suggested they could. So this version went by their real name. So the version that we're watching, they changed the opening card. There was an opening card where it says fat slags. Oh, mercy. It's a fat slags. And the fat Slags character is the fat sexual predator. Both of them are middle aged or older women who are desperate for sex and will, you know, grab these poor thin men and, you know, basically sexually assault them. And they're horrible. They're like despicable characters. Right, so let's watch the adverts. It's not long and I'll, I'll come and narrate it for you.

Right, Right, what's wrapped it?

Lucas Aid, low calorie with vitamins. Tracy, what on earth is this doing in our fridge? Actually, darling, it's mine.

When we want you to move your stuff in, we'll tell you.

New Lucozade, low calorie with vitamins.

Get it out of our fridge.

Okay, so we have the opening card and it says, oh, mercy. It's Tracy and Sandra in an image of them. And it's like the. Oh, mercy is like, oh, my God, here they come. So two fat white cartoon women, both wearing boob tubes which cut their breasts in half and their breasts are spilling out the top as the, the, the clothing is too small. And also they're portraying them as being slags. By the way, slags is a British word for slut. Um, so the bottom half, they appear to wear nothing. There's some sort of something there, but it looks like maybe it might be a swimsuit. But they were. So they were just wearing this tight, revealing clothing. Their legs are bare and then high heels. And they both have northern British accents to donate. They're poor and stupid. Remember I said about the, the regional accent? And so if an American tourist is being portrayed, then they're going to be portrayed as a southerner. Right? If a fat, unintelligent British person is being portrayed, they're being portrayed as a northerner or someone from a farmer, you know, farmer, like, oh, you know, I can't even. I was going to Try and do a farmer's accent. I won't. Like from Devonshire or something. Anyway, they're poor is the idea. Their accent is a poor accent. So they barge through the door, burst through and they're so huge, they knock down an ironing board and the floorboards creak. They ask, right, what's for aftrs and afters is dessert, right? So they obviously have had their food already, but they're not satiated. They need some dessert. They open the fridge, which is literally packed in. The fridge door is packed with multiple packets of lard. In the main body of the fridge, we have unwrapped cheese, sausages just hanging down, cakes unwrapped. Every inch is packed with food and food that is deemed as unhealthy. They then get mad as there is a bottle, a lowly bottle of low calorie leukosade with vitamins. Fat people don't want vitamins because we're just really committed to being unhealthy, right? And they say, what on earth is this doing in our fridge? Because fat people, we only want to have lard and cakes in our fridge. How dare something with vitamins that is low calorie be there? And then we cut to a young, conventionally attractive white man oiled in just a towel, looks like just got out of the shower. And that juxtaposition between him and these two older, slaggy, fat, brash women, he's like, cool. He is the opposite of those fat slacks. He is handsome, he is healthy, he is desirable, he is innocent. Then they take the leucoside out of the fridge. At the end of the advert, they take the leukocade and replace it with. With a squelch noise with a cake. Like, it's really visceral of disgust. And they say, get out of our fridge. That's the catchphrase. Get it out of our fridge. So if you want to be the opposite of the fat slags, you should drink glucosate and it's touted as a weight loss drink. There's like a little things where like a part of a balanced diet. Yeah. And so then kids were saying fat slags in the playground. I bet you wasn't just kids, but it was every. And this is, you know, that's just what the media was like at that time. And you know what I found really interesting is I went to look at the comments on the YouTube video, expecting people to be like, whoa, holy, this is up. People weren't saying that. They were like, oh, wow, this is the good old days. This is when people weren't so PC. This is so funny. Ah ha ha. I love the fat slags. To me, it's just outrageous. It's just so stigmatizing. Yeah. It's just unbelievable. So no, no wonder we've grown up being like, I don't want to be fat. And you know what? All of these fat media tropes, they're so fucking boring. It's so boring. Oh my God, it's just not even funny. My God, can we get over this? Yeah. People are fat. It's so fucking funny. Wow. Just. It just uses just no creativity or innovation or humor. Right. It's just stereotype after stereotype after stereotype after stereotype. Oh, man, oh man, man, man. Yeah. So anyway, I made the reel. The real the title was When Thin People Write Fat Characters. What you mean, you know, anyone of any size could be writing these characters because, you know, someone said something like, oh, this is. They don't know. People don't know fat people. So they write characters like this. I was thinking the ones that do know fat people and they like them. Bet you that's when they're writing the, the loser kind of sad sack or the, the, the mummer, the, the mummy type character. So people who, like, who love a fat person who is then writing a fat character, they're writing them as probably pitiful or serving them in some way, like the sidekick or the mama character. But they're still tropes. And fat people can be all these things, right? Fat people can be dirty and smelly and horrible. La la la la la. Right? Not saying that that doesn't exist, but it's a stereotype. Fat people are also super hygienic, generous and kind and sexually confident and not predators and wonderful characters with all the different facets and boring and smart and not funny and doesn't eat enough, having eating disorders. Athletes. And also they don't have to be those good things too to be worthy. They don't have. You don't have to be super intelligent and an athlete and eating a salad and la la la. You know, just fat people are just, just like straight sized people. We're nice and we're nasty and we're good and we're bad and we're everything in between. And I think that's where the interestingness comes from is the fact that we are these multidimensional characters. And when we are just seeing trope after trope after trope, it's so fucking boring because there's some wonderful, interesting, vibrant, scary, happy, thrilling, all sorts of fat stories to tell. And we're not seeing them. We're seeing the same stories over and over and over again. I mean, you know, they do exist. There are stories where fat people are not just all of these tropes, but it's really hard to find them. Series that I finished recently that just finished up, which is really sad because it's a really good series. Somebody somewhere. So there you go. There's a little recommendation. Somebody, somewhere, go watch that for some. It's a lovely, beautiful series. There is a little bit of tiny bit of bullshit in there, but it's coming from the other person. So you know what? I know Anyway, it's like 98% perfect. Which, I mean, if you are used to watching fat characters, then we know, you know, if they're not just like, hey, I'm fat and I'm greedy and evil and horrible and terrible, then we're like, oh, this is amazing. Okay, well, if you liked this episode and you want to support me, go to my KO Fi. I really appreciate it. If you don't want to, that's fine too. We're all good. We're friends. So we're friends though. Okay. Okay. Okay. I really appreciate you being here. Go check out my Instagram for a visual roundup of this stuff and for some videos reels and thank you for tuning in. Say it with me. Thank you for tuning in. I appreciate you. And here's to a world with wonderful multi dimensional fat characters. We can do it. Come on, writers out there. Come on, creators. If you're a fat creator, I bet you're already doing it, right? You were probably already doing it. All right. Anyway, Sunset here, Diggy wants to go out. So tatty. Bye. See you later. I'll go. Bye.

Episode 195 Transcript

You're listening to The Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 195, Fat harm: The medical model of fatness. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. My pronouns are they/them? Let's do it.

Hello. Welcome to this episode. First, fatties and fat ally. So pleased to have you here. Welcome, welcome.

I have my little brains been thinking. I've been a busy I was gonna say little bee, fat bee. Oh, cute, little fat bee buzzing around. It's the end of Jan. I'm recording this. And I have done nine trainings in January for corporate people, organizations, medical professionals and the like. Because of that, I have had interactions with folks. And, you know, talking to other humans is where I get some great ideas from, right? Every time I talk to someone, because I work alone. Can I talk to someone? I'm just like, just so much better when you can talk to other people and be like, what about this? What about this? What about this? Anyway, one of the trainings that I did in January, I was talking to one of the participants. They said, so what do you do? Basically, they were talking about how they were prescribing weight loss and how they think that weight loss is good and great. They said, weight loss is really beneficial for this condition that I treat. All the studies show that if you lose weight, then everything's great. And I asked the person, the doctor, I said, Okay, so your first step is you prescribe weight loss. And she said, yeah, and then then we'll do treatment afterwards, but that's the first step, is prescription of weight loss. And I said, Okay, so how many people come back to you after they've lost weight? And she was like, well, well, the studies show that it's, you know, weight loss is really good for this condition. I was like, no, no, just to clarify, like, how many people lose weight? And she's like, Oh, well, they don't. I was waiting for her to have that aha moment, but unfortunately, we didn't quite get there. And so I said, How about if you're prescribing weight loss, why not? Here's a wild idea. Give them the treatment at the same time.

No, no, no, no, no, we have different viewpoints. No, that's not possible. Anyway, I train lots of different people right in corporate environments, and most of the time, some good news for you, most of the time, is people are really excited. People are really on board with this stuff, especially if their organization has already done a lot of dei stuff. It's really easy to connect with what I'm talking about, to other systems of oppression. Because, you know, also I talk about it in my in my training, like they don't need to, you know, do that work themselves, but for others who are maybe still newer in that journey, or maybe are in the medical world, they can still, still really cling on to the idea that fatness is bad inherently, and we should make fat people fit. So it made me think about, how do I reach, how do we reach fat liberation community in general, people who are who want to do good by their patients, right? They're still in weight centric, you know, Bs, we talked about, I think, did we talk about the two episodes ago? Weight centric? I can't, yeah, I started, yeah. I had started a couple of episodes talking about that. Anyway, I've developed that even more the I've made a the weight centric health care

Unknown Speaker 3:52

cycle. It's on my Instagram, if you want to look a visual of what it looks like. Basically, fat people go in, they get denied care. They don't want to come back because of that, you know, and poor outcomes and provided by us, and blah blah blah, and then it goes back to people not wanting to come and blah blah blah. So I was talking to another client, and she had said, Oh, have you seen that thing from the Lancet? Anyway? So the lancet is a online publication journal, and they have funded research into redefining o word Advancing Care for better lives. Do we have to redefine o word no, no hanger. So I had looked into this to see what is it that they're trying to redefine, looking at what they're talking about, they have this infographic. If it wasn't so awful, it'd be so funny. Basically, what they're saying is the AMA said this two years ago, that the BMI is faulty. And so people were like, Fuck yeah. And then they said it's faulty and it's racist, which was great. Then I made up.

About it. But then they said, but we should still use it, and then also use it with something else to measure fatness. And it was like, Oh, so close. And the other thing that they were talking about was using waist circumference, which

same as BMI, right? It's just bullshit. And so these,

these people, they've gone a step further right. Not only should we use BMI, which is, again, they say it's not good, but we should use it and waist circumference and do a DEXA scan, so direct body fat measurements such as a DEXA scan. So scanning people, and use waist to hip ratio, waist to height ratio, and waist circumference. And then, and then, and then, and then, and then, then they recognize the evidence that there are fat people who are healthy. I mean, that's that's not controversial, right? It's just fact, right? There's fat people that are healthy, and there's then people that aren't healthy, right? And so they say fat people who are healthy, or people with a high BMI but have had a DEXA scan, who have a certain amount of muscle or their fat distribution is different. They don't have o word, but what they have instead is pre clinical o word, and so they've come up with a new term, pre clinical o word. So that's for fat people who are all of these different things, people just living their lives. If you're fat, you've got pre clinical o word. It's just, it's just, it's mind boggling, the the lengths I go to in order to diagnose a group of people with with a disease when their own infographic and research is showing that actually having a body size is not a good indicator of someone's health status or what conditions they may or may not have, because The thing is, like, when a disease, right? Is this, this cluster of of of outcomes, of symptoms, right? That this is what qualifies someone having a disease. So I don't know, say I have asthma, right, you know? And so all asthmatics have some struggle with breathing whenever the criteria is, right? But you can't just say everyone with brown hair is an asthmatic, because a certain portion of people with brown hair have asthma, because it's not the brown hair that links everyone, although many brown haired people might have asthma, and it's the same with fatness. I did a whole episode on is fatness a disease, and go into all of this stuff, anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. I'm going off all these side tangents to build up why we're talking about what we're talking about today. It's, you know, so this is like this, like new, new study from the Lancet Commission by the lancet is not new or groundbreaking. I mean, just this summer, Reagan Chastain was talking about, someone was suggesting the body roundness index instead of BMI. So is what it says. You know, we're measuring someone's rotundity to determine if they're diseased, which is as just ridiculous as it sounds, right? Which leads to this framing, this framing of fatness as disease. For many people, it's good news, right? Because, especially for a lot of fat people, because, because, because, because, because, what they hear is, I'm not at fault for my fatness. Thing is, fat liberation also says that you're not a fault for your fatness. Without making something into something, it's not right. And if you know, if you're listening to this, and you're like, I feel good about the idea that fatness is a disease, if that works for you, you know, go for it, right? If that it feels healing, whatever. But the thing is, with disease is, what do we need to do? We need to cure them. And because fatness is just a normal way to have a body, we don't need to cure it, right? There's we don't need to fix. But if there are things associated with fatness, because of fat bias, because of health care, because of yo yo dieting, then we should fix those, that bias and those outcomes, right? Versus fixing FAT, FAT nurse adipose tissue, as we know diet, diets don't work, and diet companies are like, okay, how can we get really smart about marketing to people? Because we all know diets don't work. Diets don't work, and so, you know, Noom went we're with psychology, although, uh, Noom is now prescribing GLP ones. We go via Zep, that type of thing, because their psychology, surprise, surprise isn't working, isn't making people fun. This is the playbook. This is the playbook, how to sell how to make money off fat people. I did a post a while ago, and I did a podcast how weight loss and pharma companies are scamming us into thinking they are advocating for fat people. Because this fucking annoys me so much when I hear people who mean well, who have been educated by Pharma.

Pharmaceutical companies about how to talk about fat people, and that comes with like language, like person with O word and saying that fatness is a disease, because it's just the same playbook you know how to sell your weight loss product to make gigantic profits. So the so the steps I defined were first step one is measure bodies to determine who is fat, so doesn't matter that it's not based in health. We want to measure bodies. And this new thing from the lancet is measuring bodies. We need to convince everyone that falls into the correct number is good and an incorrect number is bad and diseased, and bonus points for pushing lower BMI ranges, which is what they've done. We also need to tell everyone it's not fat people's fault that they have a disease, and trick people into thinking that we care about fat people and so they won't notice that our real motive is to sell weight loss products. Lol. Next Step four is to use the language of social justice and fat liberation activists to convince authorities approving our product is about access and not about lining our profits, because fat people deserve rights, lol, aka, pay for our weight loss drug. And so it's like convincing well meaning people to use the phrase people with O word and in reinforcing the idea that fatness is a disease and doing with a smile on your face. But still, we need to erase fat people also then donating millions of dollars to step five, donating millions of dollars to advocacy groups who call themselves grassroots movements, and they are the people who educate health care providers about how to talk about fat people, not actual fat people,

which gets on my nerves. A lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. So all of this to say medical professionals are either in the place of fat people are fuck them. We hate them. Blah, blah, blah, or maybe they're at the place where they say, oh, okay, I can get behind the idea that fat people are humans, but still they they're greedy, out of control, lazy pieces of shit. But we should help them lose weight. It's not their fault, but I want to get them to a place where fat people are human and they're just as equal as straight sized people, and the health outcomes are can be largely attributed to bias and blah, blah, blah. I want fat people to be treated equitably, and I want fat people to be prescribed evidence based care. That's my goal. However, the difference between diets work, fatness is bad, and diets don't work, and fatness is neutral is too much of a goal for some people, especially medical professionals. If they've been in they've been educated in this weight centric healthcare cycle, right for their whole careers. They're just entrenched in it. So what is the bridge? And I was thinking about this, what could the bridge be harm reduction? So harm reduction is a concept where, so just a quick Google quick definition, harm reduction includes programs and services to lessen the harms related to substance use. It started as reducing harm in regards to substance use, like, for example, drugs or alcohol. And then now it, then it went to sex work, and now it can be used in in there's lots of different ways that we all engage in harm reduction. I'll give you some some examples in a moment. So the idea with with harm reduction is that say, if someone's using drugs is the best way for them to access care or to be safe, to tell them just don't use drugs. Easy. Good luck. See you later. Just come back next week when you're not using drugs again. Okay, thanks for this. Is that helpful? Probably not, you know, and sometimes, like, for example, sex work. Maybe someone is a sex worker, and that's their income, right? So it's like, Oh, don't engage in that thing, that it's your job, and you might really like it, and you know, you might potentially be exposed to harm. Maybe not. But how are ways that that we can engage in harm reduction to keep you safer? So for example, with harm reduction services for substance use, it could be things like people giving access to syringes, so people are not sharing syringes, syringe disposal, medical assisted treatment or safe consumption sites like we have in Vancouver, we have, I think, a couple now, and so people can go in and use, use whatever they've got in inside with healthcare providers right there. So if something happens in the OD, they've got Naloxone right there, right or pharmacy access or drop in centers, yeah. So you know, the thing that could cause harm is still likely to happen, but we're reducing the harm. And so the way that we all engage in harm reduction is things like wearing a seat belt or sun cream when we're out in the sun. Because, you know, we go out in the sun, we're like, we know the sun is harmful, but you know, I want to go get in some have some fun sometimes, right? And so we put on sunscreen to.

Juicy harm. We might drive a certain speed limit, we might use birth control or filters on cigarettes. These are all examples, right? When I'm talking about harm reduction, I'm talking about the harm caused by healthcare providers. That's called io tragenic harm. Iotrogenic harm, iatrogenic is harm? Is the or iatrogenesis is a causation of a disease, a harmful complication or other ill effect by any medical activity, including diagnosis, intervention, error or negligence. So the idea that fat people experience harm by engaging with healthcare providers, hands up, if that's you. Yes, most fat people can say that's us. We've experienced irogenic harm so irogenic harm reduction, in regards to interactions with healthcare providers, know what you're doing, what they're doing, and so I was thinking bridging the gap. We don't tell them that what we're doing is helping them engage in harm reduction, because they probably don't perceive themselves as causing harm, even though we all know that we all do cause harm. And I guess we engage in harm reduction when we interact with healthcare providers, because we might take many different use many different techniques to keep ourselves safe. For example, you might say, if they get on the scale, not and smile and nod and say, Okay, I'm going to get on the scale because it's more harmful to fight. You might say it's less harmful for me to say, No, thank you. I don't want to be measure weighed. You could say to the doctor, I don't want to talk about weight loss today. You could just say, yep, of course, I'll go on a diet because you don't want to get them angry and because that would cause you harm, right? So we're all doing things like this already, so I've made a spreadsheet. I'm going to make it into a an Instagram post, face to face to post of ideas of what we can do instead. Okay, so before I go into that, talk to you about medical model and social model of disability. I'm just going to quickly talk about what that is and give some ideas on harm reduction stuff. But the medical model of disability says that a disabled person, that they are disabled by their limitations, by their quote, unquote, abnormal body, that their body is what is making them disabled, right the way that they move and talk, or how their brain works, that's what's making them disabled, versus the social model says that a person is disabled by their environment and its physical, attitudinal communication and social barriers. So imagine if we lived in a world where every building was wheelchair accessible, every book was in Braille, every TV show had every time you went to the movies, there was captions automatically. They're just some random examples. There was this commercial that I see, I've seen on Instagram. I've reposted it a couple of times, which is, imagine if the world was made for disabled people, and if you were non disabled person, how you could be othered by that. And so in the commercial, there's people whizzing by on wheelchairs, and then the person who's standing is like trying to get people's attention, but being ignored. And then they go into an office to talk to someone behind a desk, and the person is speaking in sign language, and the non disabled person is like, I don't understand you. And the and the person in sign language is kind of like, it looks like they're being like, come on, you know, why don't you know sign language? And then they go to a library, and all the books are braille, and the person who is looking for a non braille book can't find any because there aren't and so the world was made for disabled people. And so that's the social model, saying that the world is disabling. And so what I bring this up for fatness is we can use this, this model, to view fatness in in the same framework, right? And so with harm reduction, let's go back to harm reduction, the medical model, what they say, things that they might do in the medical model, saying that fatness is inherently wrong, right, prescribe weight loss and then provide treatment after weight is lost, or later when the weight is not lost. The social model, which is, you know, fat liberation, says, don't prescribe weight loss, instead, immediately provide evidence based care. So there's, there's the two differences in them in the middle, not necessarily that there's, you know, the social model is an extreme. It's just, you know, pretty basic thing.

But maybe to help someone who's in the medical model reduce the harm is, don't delay treatment while wasting waiting for weight loss. So, you know, they would, they're still going to tell them to lose weight, right? You've still got to tell us to lose weight, but how about while they're quote, unquote losing weight, and we all know, you know, you're not losing weight, but while they're losing weight, you provide evidence based care, you know. And so they feel like they've done their job by telling someone to to lose weight, but then they also providing care at the same time, instead of weight.

Thing. So a medical model view could be the presumption. Presumption is, if someone is fat, then they eat, quote, unhealthy food and don't move their body. A social, social model would say, understanding that weight is not a behavior, and there are hundreds of reasons that someone is fat, and if talking about food, then refer to a weight inclusive dietitian. So the harm reduction version could be ask what they eat or how they move their body, versus assuming so harm is still being done, right? You know, like, oh, a fat person, they must really Groody. But instead of assuming, then asking, so it's still not gray, if there's still harm there, but it's a bit better. So, yeah, so I'm thinking about the harm reduction way of teaching about this stuff, but it sucks, though, right? Because you just want people just just to do the right thing

and not be like, Hey, you can still prescribe weight loss.

But how about you also give them evidence based care, versus being like, just give them evidence based care. But I think sometimes, you know, it feels so extreme to walk away from that. So I don't know. I don't know. It's just the things I'm thinking about more about the medical model and the social model. So I want to give you more examples of the disability.

So there's a blog post from someone called Aaron human, and this links for everything that I'm talking about is going to be in the show notes. But Aaron made this infographic that goes over medical model versus social model and what the differences are, and and I'm going to take out the word disabled, and put fat in its place, and so you can see how it relates to fatness, right? Okay, so the original word is disabled and I'm putting fat instead. The medical model says fat people are harmed by the abnormalities and deficits of their own body and brain. So it was originally disabled people are harmed. The social model says fat people are harmed by their environment and its physical, attitudinal communication and social barriers. Medical model says fat people are broken, abnormal or damaged versions of human beings and should be fixed, cured and or prevented. Fat people are normal, valid varieties of human beings and should have equal rights and access to society just as they are. COVID goes perfectly, doesn't it? The medical model says, Since the fat person's impairments prevent them from functioning normally, they need caregivers and professionals, professionals to make decisions for them. The fat person is an object of charity and a receiver of hell help. The social model says since the fat person is inherently equal, they have a right to autonomy, choice and free and informed consent of their own lives, in their own lives. And lastly, the medical model says the fat person should adjust to fit into society, since they are the only one who is not normal, being part of society means rising above their fatness, so it was rising above their disability. The social model says a fat person should be supported by society because they are equal and have a right to inclusion. Their community should adjust its own barriers and biases. So Erin ends with the social model of disability matters because disabled people are your equals. We can't achieve true inclusion in society if we are seen as lesser, even in a seemingly benevolent way, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, benevolent way. That's exactly tell the Fauci to lose weight, but don't be mean about it. Do it with a smile on your face. It's not their fault that they're fat. Continuing, Aaron says all disabled people have a right to autonomy, no matter how much support they need to communicate their choices. So it's super relevant, isn't it? So let's, let's really kind of bring it home to exactly what the difference is in in fat, because some of the, you know, there's a few differences there about, you know, we should be kind or charitable to fat people. We don't really get that as much. But anyway, anyway again, I'm gonna make this into into an Instagram post. So the thing is, right, here's the thing, here's, here's a little criticism, here's a little criticism of the social model. So folks have said that the social model could diminish the realities that fatness could be disabling. I mean disability, disability, they you know, they lived realities of of disability, and how say, if light is too bright, you're in you're at home, and the light is your it's painful for you to have a light on that pain that you're experiencing isn't because of society's attitudes towards you in that moment, right? It's the light because of the impairment that you have that makes the light too bright, or whatever, and so you turn off the light. And so that's a criticism of this. But what I.

Me I really like is the medical model, attitudes and perceptions, and so that framing of disability is bad, fatness is bad. That's an attitude, right? And so I want to talk about that attitude between the two. Before we do, let's let's hear from a disabled creator, and I just want to play a video of of them giving examples of of the two models. So we'll listen to that now. By the way, you can watch this, watch this podcast on YouTube, and so if at any point you're like, I want to see the I want to see the visuals for it. It was on YouTube. Oh, you there. Be quiet. The show is starting. You're stimulating. It's distracting the audience. Welcome everybody to tonight's performance. Now, tonight's performance is going to involve some audience interaction and some flashing images. If you feel the need to stim or feel the need to talk, feel free to do so. There are many ways of approaching disability you've just seen too the social model and the medical model. Hello, I'm Kim binci. We are access all areas, and this is access, not denied.

Historically, the medical model has influenced attitudes and treatments to disabled people, but things are beginning to change. A lot of this social change was due to the disabled people's rights movement in the 1970 we weren't gonna take it anymore. We had to have our civil rights and one activist in particular that is responsible for this is Mike Oliver. You don't have our permission, who brought the disability social model into the public eye in 1983 while I didn't invent the social model of disability, I am responsible for naming it. Now, in my opinion, the social model is not perfect, but it is a massive improvement on the medical model. Rather than just wanting on about this all day, what does it look like? Well, I will show you, as I was saying, the thing that disables people is their impairment and their condition.

It is the physical environment and the society's attitude that disable and impair people. Look now we know what people can and cannot do. No, no, we ask people what works for them, and we work towards removing barriers. Scenario, one education, you are a neurodivergent student. You're in school, and you communicate differently to the other students. You boy, Stop fidgeting. Look at me when I'm talking to you. It is very disrespectful not to make eye contact. I am aware that some of you find it distracting giving constant eye contact to the person talking to you. If you want to look elsewhere while I'm talking to you, that's absolutely fine. Scenario two, an audition, you are an actor that requires support, and you've just been given a script for a very important wall. Oh, forget the fake. It's a light too bright for you. Oh, that show business, that's just the way it goes. Now I've got some very important questions to ask you. I need you to be listening, because I'm going to fire them at you very far. Is that light level okay? For you, we can always turn it down. Now, when I ask you a question, if you don't understand, feel free to ask me again. I will repeat them as many times as possible until you understand. And also, there's some creative support for you. Yeah. Oh, and one more thing, good luck. What kind of models of disability Do you want to see disgust in videos like this? Is there anything that you would like to see that I haven't mentioned? If so, please let me know in a comment down below. Okay, so let's look at the medical model, attitudes and perceptions. What they say is fat people and fatness is a problem. The social model says anti fat bias is a problem. Medical fat people are abnormal. Social fat people. Fat is a normal way to have a body. Medical, fatness is a disease or fat people are unhealthy. Social, fatness is not a disease and fat people can have different outcomes. Fat people can be healthy and unhealthy, and both are morally equivalent. Medical, fat people should become thin in order to not experience bias. Social, society should be inclusive to people of all sizes, and fat, people should have equal access and rights no matter their size. Medical says that we have criteria for defining who is fat from the medical establishment, and if you are too fat, your inferior abnormal or unhealthy. And that medical criteria is the BMI, the social model says we have a guideline on understanding body sizes in regards to levels of privilege and access. And that's the fat spectrum made popular by ash from the fat lip podcast. And so that's the small fat, medium fat, super fat, infinity fat, et cetera. Someone said to me once when I was on the BBC TV.

Show. She was like, she was, didn't like being fat, and was really into the medical model of fatness. And she was like, well, you think that the BMI is awful, and then why are you doing you've just got the same thing with the the fat spectrum. It's the same thing. It's even worse. I didn't like her. She was a dickhead. And it's not the same right because because it is led by the community and instead of saying this person is good and this person is bad it's saying this person has more or less privilege and privilege is not good or bad it's just a tool that we can use and have access to or not have access to we should center those with the least privilege versus the ones with the most privilege right. Whereas and so let's help the people who have the least privilege whereas the BMI is saying let's target the ones who are abnormal the most abnormal and so harming them. Okay so the medical model says we should work to make fat people thin so they can physically fit into society, the social model says we should consider inclusive design, inclusive design is another concept within disability where you you know exactly what it says if you think about all people when you're designing products or spaces anything that humans are using right. So basically design it for humans not just for a small section of society and the same with fatness right so we know the amount of spaces that we go into and we don't fit physically or things that we can't use because they're not related to us. You know I was on a clothing website and they have do you know what I just do you know what I really fucking hate it's on clothing websites always another thing elevator remind me in a second elevator. Clothing websites they have women men and home and blah blah and then they have curve as if curve is you're not a woman or a man it's like it just gives it just reeks of subhuman you know and then so anyway I was on the curve section and then on the curve section it has okay here comes in these sizes and there's another button and it said normal sizes and I was like normal?

Fuck you. Do you know what the other thing I guess on my nerves the amount of clothing companies that are like we are we are no matter your body we've got you no matter your size we are in color six. I was looking at this gorgeous brand and they were just all of it all of it all of it inclusive inclusive inclusive I was like yes yes. Then I went to look at the sizes and they go to like you're size 26 or over then you're fucked because you're not human. You know the other thing I'm doesn't make me mad the elevator thing the elevator thing so I'm moving down to the first floor of my apartment because the elevator is going to be is being renovated it's going to be down for like six months and because I'm disabled they need to move me to an accessible apartment it's not perfect but whatever. I've been thinking about this about ableism coming up in my brain of using the elevator to go to the first floor and I was just thinking about this and that same day I was thinking about it I got into the elevator and someone I said someone else came in and I said oh what floor and they said oh two I'm being so lazy and I was like um no you're not being lazy it's efficient it saves time why do you want to get up to the second floor he was eating some delicious snack and be out of breath and in the I was just like no you're not lazy and I don't want to hear this anymore people getting into elevators and being like I'm so lazy because I'm using the elevator to go to the first or second or third or whatever floor they're going to because it's fucking ableist and it's shaming it's shaming yourself and shaming the other people in the elevator if they one day decide that they want to take the elevator to the first floor so let's get rid of this let's get rid of that from our vocab you know this is just something I've just realized oh the amount of times when I used to work in this corporate environment it's corporate environment and we were on the second floor and we had these really swish offices and we had a cafeteria on the on the bottom floor every motherfucker would use the stairs and it was a glass staircase and inside the glass staircase was a glass elevator and the amount of times that I got went and got my lunch and I was like I want to get in the elevator if I was here alone I'd be getting in the elevator but because of shame that I was a fat person and everyone else was using the stairs no fucking way would I use the elevator no and I bet you so many of my colleagues were thinking the same oh well you know Vinny's using the stairs and they're fat if they can use the stairs and they're fat I should be up to use the stairs it's so it's so fucked up on so many levels so listen up here now listen up here if you were one of those people who are shaming yourself for using the elevator or saying out loud oh I'm so lazy for using the elevator or anything like that let's get rid of that shit let's just put it in the bin because you know it's all kinds of dog shit right and if you hear someone else saying I'm so lazy but ah ah ah no no you're not okay you know laziness that's just why it's supremacy culture capitalism colonialism no thank you I don't want to be a part of that I'm gonna use the elevator as much as I'd like it's quicker it's quicker come on now and the elevator and the elevator door is closer than the freaking stairs door anyway when I'm down there and the elevator is broken I won't be using the elevator anyway so my rant my rant about things okay so the medical model says that fat people are uneducated on how to be healthy that's another thing from um the BBC program I've got so much trauma from being on that BBC program if you uh are interested I did a two part of how uh being on that show almost killed me literally that's not hyperbole because of the edit you know RuPaul says don't blame it on the edit you know when drag queens are like I got a bad edit RuPaul no I'm not with you on that one no because the edits are absolutely scandalously bad in so many reality tv shows or documentaries I was on a documentary.

I mean quotations it was like basically reality tv they're scandalous and they really harm people I was just watching the dark side of reality tv it's vice you can find it on youtube but I'm watching it in Canada on Crave which I think is HBO in the US anyway you can find it it's on it's on um it's on um youtube the dark side of reality tv and they it's it's good like they do next top model and they were doing Joe millionaire Joe millionaire which was like a bunch of women dating a guy and they said that he was a millionaire he wasn't he was a blue collar worker anyway and they were saying what did they call franken franken edit or something they used that phrase anyway so one of the girls went on a date with Joe millionaire there was no camera footage of it but all you heard was they were in a park and you heard her giving him a blowy and what they did was they just like took sections of you know her you know maybe they got a section of her licking her lips and then they got they got a sound of someone doing a slurping noise and they just did a franken edit and made it sound like she gave him a blowy and she didn't anyway what was I talking about ADHD oh yeah on the tv show on the tv show um that same person she was so do you know what really annoyed me about her she was really really privileged she was really rich came from a really privileged background and she was one of those types of I don't know I'm gonna stop slagging her off anyway I don't like her anyway she was like fat people don't know how to feed themselves no fat people don't know and it was kind of like fat fat people poor people don't know how to feed themselves like they've never heard of vegetables it was really elitist that's what it felt like it was really elitist that you know well fat people think that they should just inject lard into their veins they're just so fucking stupid which is ableist right and the word stupid is ableist so fat people are that's a medical model fat people are uneducated on how to be healthy they're out of control around food and lazy it's best to either shame them which is what we've you know seen a lot of in the past and more recently or be charitable and help them learn how to lose weight as they don't know how to the social model says fat people are likely to be more informed than straight-sized people or even experts on how to lose weight right many people in bigger bodies have spent their lives trying to become smaller and it's not a lack of willpower education or laziness that stopped them but the inherently faulty diet finally the medical model says fat people who successfully become thin should be heralded and cherished fat people who remain fat or gain weight after losing it should be ashamed the social model says weight loss or gain does not equal moral worth and moral word the moral worthiness or lack there of so because people are probably more familiar with the medical model social model of disability.

I don't know maybe this is because i'm in the dei world i think everyone knows this you know maybe they don't maybe people don't know i don't i don't know maybe that's my ignorance my ibt i don't know being in a silo of people who talk about this type of stuff i don't know anyway i'm just really interested in making this stuff more accessible and being a better communicator so that people who i think i think many health care professionals deeply deeply care about their patients and want the best outcomes and reaching them the people loretta j ross um she's an amazing black educator she talks about our spheres of influence she has a book coming out by the way she talks about spheres of influence we've got the people around us who love us and who are like probably on board with what we're saying but the people who are kind of on the fence maybe there might be acquaintances you know either all right and then you have the people on the outer sphere or ring of influence where they they they're on the other side right they're deep into right wing ideology you're not going to reach those people likely you're going to reach the people who are closest to you and there were ones on the next ring the ones who were on the fence and so the ones are on the fence are saying we should be kinder to fat people when we tell them to diet you know they're there they're almost there you know we should be kinder to fat people yes full stop full stop and then not tell them to diet like that's the end of the sentence should be perhaps this way of communicating it about the medical model versus the social model could be helpful and on top of that giving them ideas on harm reduction without telling them it's harm reduction kind of be like here's how to frame it i wonder how to frame it because it's kind of we it's almost like we don't want to let them in on the on the idea we're trying to get them to stop being harmful because it might turn them off right it might say people get defensive and say i don't cause harm i just wish some people you know would be like we all cause harm we're all f***ing biased and have s*** to learn and blah blah blah i guess it's hard for some people anyone got an idea how can we frame it because i think here's the thing i don't want to say it's acceptable to say to lose weight you know because we know it's not evidence-based and it causes harm causes poorer health outcomes maybe we do reframe it as a harm reduction technique i don't know if anyone's got any ideas i'll probably have it sorted out by next week anyway i'll be there thinking in my bed a bit like oh i have it at you know one o'clock in the morning need to write this down it could be like moving towards weight inclusivity looks like ah i don't know because they can be like no i am weight inclusive already i i i help fat people get weight loss surgery and say weight inclusive it could be step one two three anyway whatever i'm thinking out loud you don't need to be listening to me babbling about their s*** um links for everything that i'm talking about is in the show notes uh i still have i have a health care survey right if you're fat and you've experienced had any experiences in health care good or bad whatever um big or small then there's a link to do the fat and health care survey and already so much information but if you want to add in your story i haven't yet started to collect them into a report that's going to be in february because i'm busy fat b in january like i said um so you still have time to do that but it's probably going to be um cut off in the next couple of weeks so if you have anything and listen if you if you think oh my story's not good enough or it's not you know outrageous enough I know i want to hear everything even if you're saying i've had good experiences right because i want to know what's happening so far you won't be surprised you won't be surprised it's looking like i think off the top of my head 89 percent of people saying they've 89 percent of people who are all fat say that they've experienced anti-fat bias that's just from in health care that's just from the first question which says have you experienced anti-fat bias what we found with the last survey which was fat at work survey was that most people said i've experienced harm some people didn't i think it was like five or 10 percent something like that then the next question was have you experienced a boss making fat jokes have you been fired for being fat have you and so listed out a ton of different anti-fat experiences and almost every single one of the people who said that they hadn't experienced anti-fat bias in the workplace then went to describe experiences of anti-fat bias so i think sometimes we don't realize what is anti-fat bias so anyway so that 89 is from that very first question and not me delving in i did do a quick delve in to find out how racialized people are more impacted and racialized people that number went up a few percent so i mean obviously right and if i look into we've got it then separated into lots of different identities you know for example in the last survey in the fat fat at work survey what we found out was that racialized poor and disabled people were the most affected also older older people older people had the most harmful anti-fat experiences in the workplace and i think that's a shifting in in attitudes that maybe younger people have not had as egregious anti-fat experiences but still as we know the more marginalized you are the worse the world treats you anyway thanks for hanging out with me today we're 195.

I started the podcast like i don't know like six years ago um what are we going to do when we get to 200? I don't know all right i'm gonna i'm gonna let you go um my dog doogie at the when i started recording this podcast is like oh they're getting up we're gonna go for a walk and then he saw me sit in my chair in my chair to record he was like oh all right well thanks for hanging out with me today uh the show notes will be fierce fatty forward slash fiercefatty.com forward slash one nine five for links to everything and remember you are worthy you always were and you always will be stay fierce fatty we'll see you in the next episode fatty hugs and love to you goodbye bye bye you.

Episode 194 Transcript

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 194. How to protect yourself from anti-fat bias this holiday season. Let's do it.

Hello, welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Pronouncing them. Thanks for hanging out with me.

I appreciate it. If you're listening to this episode, then maybe you are seeking some respite from. Anti-fat nonsense, diet culture nonsense.

Perhaps you're at a holiday gathering and you are concurrently listening to me, then welcome. Or if that's none of you is that and it's just a random day.

Hello, welcome. I thought it was important to make this podcast, especially at this time of year, because so many of us are bombarded with absolute gargantuan amount of anti-fatness.

One from holiday settings and then two from new year, new you bullshit. And I feel this time of year, we just need extra support.

I also was inspired because one, I'd just done a training on this. If you want to get the training. You can. Today, we're going to be going over sections in the training.

But if you want the whole training, you can. One. Two, I watched the Your Fat Friend documentary.

It came out on CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation on their YouTube. So you can go watch it there if you haven't already.

I'm sure non-Canadians can watch it, too. I'll make a note here to link the doc. Anyway, Aubrey Gordon from Your Fat Friend, maintenance phase, fame.

In the documentary, I was really surprised by the lack of awareness of people around her.

And she was at a holiday table and the things people were saying and she was laughing along with, not laughing along with us in "haha, yeah, this is great to be anti-fat",

but laughing along with, as we all probably have, which laughing along of "haha, I'm laughing to maintain my safety" type of laugh because I don't want to confront you about what you're saying because, A, it's not safe.

B, I don't know you. C, whatever other reasons we don't know.

And it made me think about how powerful Aubrey is in the fat liberation world and how put in with a group of people who don't know, I mean, I mean, it's it seemed like family members and maybe friends of Aubrey's parents, maybe people who maybe understand what she does, but maybe don't get it.

And if they do get it, they are not connecting the dots that by saying anti-fat things and diet culture, things around the dinner table, that is harmful and exactly what Aubrey is is championing against.

It just, there's a disconnect. Anyway, so it doesn't matter how much you've done this work, how well versed you are in how fucked up anti-fatness and diet culture is,

there's still likely going to be times where you're exposed to anti-fatness and diet culture.

So I just want to share tactics have helped me because thankfully that's not my experience anymore because I, I lay down the law.

So, yeah, hey, listen, before we get into that, I checked out my podcast reviews.

Guess what? I got two one star reviews.

The first, the first one star review since I started, I got a one star review when I started the podcast, like five years ago.

And so in the five years since, I think it's only been five star reviews.

And one of them, I don't know what this person is saying.

This one person says lies to self. Heart health is a real thing.

Please stop spreading lies. Listen, I'm up to one hundred and ninety four episodes of the podcast.

Not once ever have I spoken about heart health.

So I don't know. No, nowhere, nowhere in any content I've ever produced have I spoken about heart health.

I know what this person is talking about. So and then the other person says, I only just talk about myself and I only read other people's articles.

I do read other people's articles, not articles and fall read snippets of it.

Sometimes some episodes might have more quotations from articles. Some none at all.

Like this one is none at all. So anyway, if you appreciate the podcast, if you can go and leave me a review, I would really be very thankful because these are the top two ones from the UK, ones from the US.

The first thing people are going to see these two, these two one star reviews depending on where they are.

So if you've listened to the show, you've got any type of benefit from it, if you can go and leave a review my little fatty heart.

Maybe that's where people are getting it from. My fatty heart will be will be very happy.

OK, the other update is last episode I spoke about fat and health care survey has been released.

It's been out for a couple of weeks. We're up to one hundred and eighty seven responses so far.

Love to get to two hundred if you haven't already go to the link and share your experiences about accessing health care while having a fat body.

If you had any anti fat experiences as a kid with the health care, that's that's also really interesting.

OK, I'm going to link link the health care making a note. Leave the health care survey.

Here's a few snippets though. Here's a few snippets from the stories that people are sharing.

By the way, your story doesn't need to be I almost died.

Your story can be I had a good experience, although we haven't had we haven't had any of those so far.

I have no no good experiences. It could be that there was microaggressions.

They could be that you have a have a sense, a feeling that you're not welcome, right?

All of those things are really important because I tell you why the big stories are important because they're egregious.

The small stories are important because I feel like health care providers can relate more to the smaller things.

If they're trying to do good, if they're not overtly aggressively anti fat,

they're more likely to be doing those smaller things that they don't realize are impact.

So all ranges of stories are really important.

And this information is going to be shared with health care providers like I've got nine trainings.

I've got a lot of stories that I've already got booked in with organizations and a few of those are medical organizations.

So this is really directly people are going to hear your stories.

So anyway, I'm going to be making a report that's probably probably going to come out in February.

So here's some snippets. I wrote an email with some snippets.

A 12 year old child who was told to jazzacise their fat away when they had precancerous mold.

This is what people have shared in the survey.

They're better and lose weight in response to a ruptured ovarian cyst.

Immediate medical attention was needed for that one.

Many folks reported being denied medical mental health meds because they may cause weight gain as a side effect.

And I guess that's better to be suicidal and thinner. I guess. Right. Sarcasm.

A doctor saying aloud and in front of other people, oh, here comes the one that won't get on the scale.

And another who called their patient names in relation to the food that they ate.

A massage therapist who waited until their client was already undressed on the table and part way through the appointment to start talking about how the company's weight loss products and suggestions.

A doctor looked at one person's body groaned and said, how do you people let yourselves get like this?

The and finally, the fat vegan who was told to eat more vegetables without being asked what they eat.

So that's just me. That was just me scanning and picking out random things.

There are there are stories of people having devastating outcomes, not that not that these are not devastating.

There's a lot. There's a lot to share. So I can't wait to share that info with you.

And if you feel called to do that survey. All right. So how to protect yourself from anti-fat bias.

This holiday. First off, I just want to give you a big fat, juicy, warm hug.

Just hug you in my brain and say you are worthy. You always were.

You always will be. Your body is not wrong. Your body is not bad.

You are not greedy for eating food. You are not lazy. You deserve comfort and peace and acceptance.

And if the people around you don't get that, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry if that's your experience.

Hopefully, just being with us today in this fat community, which is a podcast, is somewhat of a balm.

I did a podcast on how to protect yourself from anti-fat bias according to science.

And what science says is that being in the fat community, being part of the group, the in-group of fat, fatness and identifying as fat and being like I'm a fat person and I'm in a group of fat people already helps you deal with anti-fatness when it happens.

Versus if you're like, I don't want to be associated with fatness, I don't like being fat.

So if you're here, it's already doing something for you.

And if you can get any more fat community, joining Facebook groups, following people on social media, listening to other podcasts, if there's any way for you to meet people in person or in groups virtually, that's all going to be helpful.

As long as they're fat positive, right?

First off, first off, big thing that I advocate for and I've shared it on my Instagram before is a method that I've created called remove, reduce, protect.

You might have heard me say this before, but these are really, really important in order to try and get anti-fatness away from your life.

So first off, the gold standard, if you can do this, and by the way, this is not possible for a lot of reasons, for a lot of people, for a lot of dynamics due to privilege, et cetera, et cetera.

But if you can remove anti-fat bias, and so what that can look like removing anti-fat bias is look at your life and say, go through different areas and say, does this relationship?

Does this habit?

Does this item of clothing?

Does this TV show that I'm watching?

Does et cetera, et cetera?

Does it support the belief that my body is okay and that I'm allowed to eat food?

Or does it do the opposite?

Does it reinforce some unhelpful things?

Now, if it's a relationship, that can be tricky, unless it's someone that you're like, ah, this is just some person I met recently and I don't want to see them anymore.

Or you could be at the place where you're like, you know what?

I've had enough of my weird Uncle Keith making jokes about my body, and so I'm just going to not talk to him anymore.

You could be at that stage.

Sometimes it can take a long time to get to that stage.

But if we can, if there's a TV show that really fucks with us and makes us feel bad afterwards, and sometimes you might not even know that it's making you feel bad, can we remove it?

And some clues are, some clues are, if you're having a bad body image day, is to be a detective and see if there was anything triggering in the last little while.

Did someone say something to you?

Did you get exposed to something?

Is it just a random thing?

But can we be a detective and find out?

Ah, I know what it was.

Guess what?

I realized that my body image had been triggered.

I was on Discovery Channel, and they had...

I knew I shouldn't do it.

I knew it was a bad idea.

But I watched three episodes of What Not To Wear from the 2020s, 2010s, whenever it was out.

Season two with, you know, Stacey and I think Clinton, you know, where they grab people and they're like, "You dress really fucking bad and you're really fat.

Oh, let's hide all these problem areas and get slimming clothes for you, you big whale."

I knew I shouldn't, but I was like, "Well, there's nothing really else on that I'm watching right now.

I'll just put it on.

I'll just put it on."

Three episodes later, I was like, "Oh, that was gross."

And it's so obvious now with a lens of what we know now, looking at these people, there's one person that I'm like, "This person's going through some gender thing because they're like,

'Why are you dressing like a man?'

And you need to be wearing a dress."

And the person's like, "No, that doesn't feel like me."

And they're just like, "Ugh, this is gross."

And someone else was clearly neurodivergent and had issues with, like, had special interests and wanted to wear band t-shirts.

And another one was like really, really anti-fat and had body image struggles that were just really needed.

She really needed help from a mental health specialist, therapist or something.

Right. And they're just like, "Shut up.

You don't even know what looks good on you."

We know and force them to do things that they're uncomfortable with anyway.

So it was obviously terrible and horrible and, you know, I was just like, "Well, maybe it was, you know, I remember it being a good show, as in entertaining.

But I also remember it being fucked up, even at the time."

And I went back and no, no, I started thinking like, ugh, I felt something, I felt something in my brain in the next day or so where I was thinking about the things that they were saying.

Problem areas, slimming, you must follow this rule.

And this, this is coming from someone who has worked on this for years.

So for me, even though it would be a guilty pleasure, it would be, there would be some pleasure in watching this trash, I'm just not gonna, I'm just gonna protect my health and not gonna.

So the next is reduce.

So if you can't remove, reduce.

So if I said, actually, I really liked what not to wear, even though I know it probably wasn't great, but the amount of enjoyment I get from that show outweighs the negative body image, I might choose to reduce the amount of time I spend watching the show.

And that goes with for, you know, all of the things that we mentioned before that we, areas in your life that you might identify.

You might reduce spending time with weird Uncle Keith because you can't not see weird Uncle Keith because he's gonna be at the Christmas party or whatever.

But you're just gonna reduce your exposure.

So are there things that you can't remove or maybe you're not ready to remove, but you can reduce the amount of exposure.

And next, finally, is protect.

So if you can't remove, you can't reduce.

So, for example, it's your boss, you know, you can't be, you know, telling your boss to shut the fuck up with your anti diet talk.

Can you protect your mental health in other ways?

For example, listening to this podcast, engaging in self care, looking at fat positive things, leaving the room during diet talk,

talking to your therapist, talking to a friend who's fat positive, right?

So protecting yourself from the inevitable anti fatness.

And a lot of times that is what we're doing is we're protecting ourselves as much as possible because we're going to be exposed to it.

No matter what we do, which sucks.

I think the thing is with the protect is or any of this stuff is what we're saying is that this is not OK.

We're not going to just let it seep into us and agree with the anti fatness.

I think that's a key difference in that one podcast I was talking about.

The science is not agreeing with your oppression and saying, I know this is not OK versus saying maybe I should lose some weight

or maybe I shouldn't eat X, Y, Z. OK, so if you're at the stage that you say, right, I have done the protecting, I've done the reducing.

I want to just get rid of people who are talking about anti fatness as much as possible, especially in key relationships.

Setting boundaries is super important and also super difficult if you have been someone like I was for most of my life,

of avoiding conflict, people pleaser and minimizing the pain that I was feeling when people would say anti fat things.

I'm like, well, I don't want to be a troublemaker. That's my big thing.

Don't want to be a troublemaker. And I don't want to say anything. I just want to keep the peace.

But the only peace that I was keeping is with people who were saying awful things, because I wasn't at peace.

I could tell you. Right. I wasn't at peace.

There's a quote here just about what a boundary is. Boundaries are the lines you draw in life that when someone crosses them govern what you do in response.

And so it's about how you're going to react versus trying to get them to do, change their behavior. Right.

Because, you know, they might change their behavior, they might not.

But what we have control over is our behavior and how we're going to act.

Something to recognize here as well is that setting boundaries, if you have a marginalized identity, if you have a bigger body,

you already have a marginalized identity. If you have other marginalized identities, it means that you're going to have to be more creative and more flexible.

Because if you have less power in society and might not be safe for you to set boundaries with people, depending on if you rely on that person,

if they have power over you in any way, if they could react in a way that is not physically safe for you or you know that they're going to be abusive in some way,

we you might have to take that in consideration too and decide that maybe boundaries isn't the best thing.

Maybe that's not what's going to be to serve you. Also, it might not work if well, it's not going to work with people who you've not already have an established relationship to stop them doing something.

If it's just a spur of the moment thing, it's a random thing, you know, you've never had a problem with your aunt Millie, but then all of a sudden aunt Millie says something, you know,

then you would need to be deciding if you want to set a boundary or not or just let it go.

So sometimes boundaries are the way to go, but sometimes not every situation is relevant.

However, when talking to people who clients who are struggling with body image stuff and they just feels like they've tried everything and they say,

I'm listening to all the podcasts I'm doing, you know, I'm doing all of this and that there's a couple of things that could be going wrong.

And so I asked them, what are your relationships like? Do you have supportive relationships with people who say, fuck yeah, love fat people, you know, intuitive eating, blah, blah, blah?

Or do you have a mum that's like, oh my God, I'm so fat, oh, have you tried eating celery and putting up your bum?

Often they'll say my friends are great, but my mum, but my sister, but my family, they don't get it.

And I told them before not to say X, Y, Z, and they still do it.

The other thing that people will say is, I've listened to the books and the podcasts and blah, blah, blah, but they've not taken any type of action in order to help with reinforcing new confidence and gaining new confidence.

So, for example, they want to wear a swimsuit and they're too scared to and they just hope that reading a book or listening to podcasts is going to help them have the confidence to wear a swimsuit.

But kind of a catch 22 of supporting yourself to be exposed to wearing a swimsuit, maybe just a little bit.

We've spoken about in another podcast, Tinkling Your Toes is then going to help you often feel better and more confident if you're able to wear the swimsuit for one minute to be able to wear it for two minutes, five minutes, etc.

So they're the two things that I know is a pattern in people.

And so I find that people often minimise how spending time with anti-fat people, diet, culture, people affects their mental health, affects their sense of wellbeing.

Because to know that your family would theoretically love you more, celebrate you, praise you, cherish you, if you had a smaller body, that's really painful.

And to know that you are not able to give that to them and hoping that they're going to love and accept you as you are, but then they continually keep reminding you that they really value thinness.

That's difficult, that's difficult, right? Not only is it potentially hurting your self-esteem, it's meaning that you can't have as close of relationship with that person.

Because there's a wall, there's a barrier. I think that you'd be better if you're thinner versus busting that down and getting true connection, closer connection, authentic connection.

So by not setting boundaries, often what we're doing is we're putting others' comfort over our own mental wellness.

And I think that my own mental wellness is more important than the comfort of someone else.

And we're not saying like making them uncomfortable and hurt them. It's just that don't make trouble, don't say that to your elder, don't tell them to not talk about it, don't do it.

But we can set boundaries in ways that are authentic to us that are, we don't have to unless you want to be, you know, bold and sassy and be like listen, shut the bug up.

If that's not your personality, that's not your personality. And also it might not necessarily be the best way to do it.

OK, so if you're at the dinner table and someone's saying something, there's many different ways that you can react.

Let me just go through a few. You can do things like smile and nod. Agree with them. Engage in the conversation. You might do that to keep yourself safe. Say and do nothing.

And then you'll probably ruminate about it, tell a friend about the experience later. You can change the subject. You can make a joke and be lighthearted about the situation.

You can gently tell them that you don't want to talk about this because xyz. You can firmly tell them that you don't want to talk about this.

You can walk away either saying something or not saying anything. You can give them a sassy response, which could educate them. You can tell them to fuck off. Many different options, right?

The giving them a sassy response or telling them to fuck off might not be necessary relationship building ways to go about this, but it could be protective for you.

The first four, smiling and nodding, not saying anything, changing the subject, again, are probably not necessarily relationship building stuff. It's not going to get you closer to that person necessarily,

but it will avoid conflict and it'll help you survive the situation. So that might be best for you.

But the kind of the juicy, challenging things that could be good for you and the relationship, gently telling them that you don't want to talk about something, firmly telling them and walking away.

They could be effective in getting the message across that you don't want to talk about this stuff.

Here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's the thing.

Is like I said before, people will say, I've told my mum not to talk about X, Y, Z, and she keeps doing it.

And so I dig into that and say, OK, so what is the conversation and what's happening here?

And so what will normally happen? What I'll normally hear is that I've said, Oh, can you not talk about that? Don't talk about that.

And then next time mum says, oh my god, I'm so fat because I licked a cucumber or whatever, then the person is not setting the bottom line or reminding them or a consequence. Right.

And so in that situation, next time mum says I licked a cucumber, I'm going to be really fat.

Hey, mum, remember we had I told you that I don't want to talk about food and then mum will react in any way, whatever way she's going to react.

And then next time mum says I ate a speck of dust, I'm so fat, or should you eat that?

Mum, I've asked you twice now to not talk about food. And so I'm going to enact your consequence.

Your consequence could be I'm going to end this conversation.

I'm going to walk away. I'm going to take a break from our relationship X, Y, Z. So you have to get serious, right?

This is like this is our friends and families have probably known us as people who engage in anti-fat talk and diet talk for most of our lives.

And so all of a sudden, if we just say, hey, can you not? It's kind of we have to support them through that process of really understanding that we are not in that anymore.

And to help people understand just saying constantly saying, can you not? Or, you know, rolling your eyes or ending the conversation.

It's not necessarily helping them get there because it's not necessarily communicating with them that you're serious about this.

Also, the people in your life could just be dickheads, you know, and just rolling over your boundaries anyway, even if you are stating them.

And that's where we kind of escalate the consequences type thing.

So if you know that you're going into a situation where there's probably going to be diet talk and you feel that your relationship, you want to have a deeper, more meaningful relationship or even a safer relationship,

which is really what's really important before going into a family gathering, saying, hey, by the way, let me share with you my favorites, my favorite way to talk about this, OK, that's been really successful for me and other people.

I'm wondering if you could help me with something.

Now, if someone said that to you, you'd say, oh, yeah, as long as it's not helping you to move because then, fuck, no, I'm wondering if you can help me with something.

So, as you know, I've been working on accepting my body and I've recently discovered that talking about bodies with other people can trigger low self-esteem in me.

Even if it's not about me, my brain makes it about me.

Do you think that you could help by not talking about any bodies around me?

You're the best. So in this situation, that word track, you don't have to share or, you know, I'm working on something, but that can you help me gets people kind of, oh, yeah, I'd like to help you.

You're not making it, hey, you're a piece of shit. You talk about bodies and it makes me feel terrible. And you, you, blah, blah, blah. That would probably get their defenses up.

You're saying you're making it about you and what you've recently discovered about you and how people can support you.

You're not saying that they're a terrible person. And you're saying, you know, even if you're not talking about me, which is what a lot of people say, well, I don't say anything about you.

They're talking, you know, and, you know, they're talking about them, but even if they're talking about them, it can make us feel shit.

So this seems to be successful in not creating conflict in that first bit. Listen, people, you know, whoever's going to, who you say this to, they could create conflict or, you know, from what you say anyway.

So that was my favorite word track. But the other things I like doing, depending on my level of relationship with a person is changing the subject, saying something like, I'm not into diet at all.

Or saying something like, being fat is amazing. I love being fat. I want you to get your own phrases that fit you.

Might be just one. I'm not into diet talk. Being fat is cool. Whatever it is. It could be something that's just shutting the conversation down.

I'm not into diet talk. That could shut the conversation. Saying being fat is amazing. I love being fat. That could open it up being like, too. Oh, how could you?

So you might decide that that's not. For me, I would happily say being fat is amazing. I love being fat because, you know, no matter what they say, I would have a comeback, right? Comeback is, hey, fat people are human.

Like chill. Or, you know, changing the subject if I'm not, if I don't have the relationship with that person and I don't feel it's appropriate.

So, for example, I was at a party last week. We were playing games and a guy had made a fat like fat joke reference and then had made a fat joke to me. Not about me. It was a good joke.

It was a good joke if it wasn't based on anti-fatness. And so he was having like an not intimate, but, you know, it was a joke for me to make me laugh.

And he was doing it because we were all laughing and having fun. And he didn't know me and he didn't know what I do. And he thought that I would be like, yeah, good one, because if it was about any of if it wasn't punching down, I would be like, yeah, that was a good joke.

But I didn't know the guy. I didn't know his name. We were having fun. But, you know, I probably might not see him again.

And so I just smiled and changed the subject. That was it. Now, if, say, maybe this was the second time I saw him or I wanted to have a relationship with him in that moment where he did this, this, this fat joke, I would say, oh, no.

So I think it's great to be fat. That's what I would have said. And he would have probably felt uncomfortable.

And it might have stalled the relationship a little bit, you know, the friendship, but I would then be able to be my authentic self and be creating safety to say that I'm not into fat jokes.

Then if I was sooner have met him another time, I'd probably be telling him what I do. And he might be like, oh, shit. That's why I shouldn't be making fat jokes.

So have like put that in your notes app, whatever some some phrase that is going to help you in the moment. Try and do the work beforehand to set boundaries.

And then we want to make sure that we are, if you want a boundary to be successful, you have to have a consequence.

You have to follow up when someone does the same thing. They might be doing it because they're a dickhead, but chances are, they forgot, you know, it's so part of the lingo, blah, blah, blah.

But you just have to keep not keep, but you have to at least, you know, the initial times being like, hey, by the way.

But that's the thing is you don't the you know, having to keep restating your boundary is not the way to go either.

There is a graphic that Courtney J. Burge, B, U, R, G made violations boundaries.

And so we've got a chart here, one going up is violation, one going across his boundaries.

And there's a line that goes straight up that set that shows like what you would do.

So the first step is restate the boundary. So you set the boundary, hey, don't talk about this or hey, you know, the words I just previously used, hey, do you think you can help me?

And then they're like, oh, my God, whatever. And so, hey, do you remember next?

You might decide to, by the way, this is whatever feels good for you, create some space.

And so that might be saying, I'm just going to walk away from this conversation. I'm just going to have my dinner and sit in a different room.

I am going to end this call. I'm going to stop texting this person, whatever it is next.

If they keep doing it, limit contact. If that doesn't help.

And then, you know, you limit contact, then you go back to them and they're like, oh, my God, I put a cucumber at my bum or whatever, then taking a break.

That doesn't work. Disconnect. And you can disconnect for however long you want.

Now, this process is not going to be day one. Hey, by the way, can you not talk about this?

And then someone says, oh, geez. And then you're like, fuck you. You're dead to me. That's not how it happens, right?

If you want to do that. Fine. But normally this stuff, it takes takes a while, right?

Because we generally don't tend to want to end relationships, right?

These relationships are a lot of times are important to us.

And even if you don't really like that person that much, you still want to be creating harmony.

Right. And this is how we've been socialized. And I've used the example of one of my sisters.

I have always kind of had a fraught relationship because. Anyway, her personality and boundary violations.

And so for probably five to 10 years plus worked on trying to get her to respect my boundaries and doing everything,

like going to therapy and being like, why can't I just get over it? Why do I have to be so mad at her all the time?

And the reason was because she kept violating my boundaries every time I saw her. Right.

So it took years to get to the point where I said, I don't want a relationship with you anymore because we we just couldn't get there.

We couldn't get there where she was able to say, oh, OK, I won't talk about that. Guess what?

It feels fucking amazing. And I'm able to extend way more love to her through the, you know,

not in person, but when I think about her, I make stable, able to extend compassion and grace,

empathy towards her, because she's not in my life, continuing to hurt me.

And any time she just she still violates my boundaries, she keeps trying to get back into my life,

even though I've told her that then knocks it back again and makes me realize, oh, no, this is why this is not good.

So, you know, we talk about there's lots of stories of people going no contact with family members and it being seemingly this this terrible thing.

And it can be a terrible thing. And but also it can be really healing.

And it has been really healing for me and feels feels really fucking great. Look at me.

But every other other relationship in my life has been, you know, restating the boundary, maybe got to creating some space.

But basically, it's led to better relationships. It's led to only being in in in relationship with people who don't talk about anti-fatness and diet culture.

How fucking amazing is that? How lucky am I? I know that's not reality for most people. Oh, it feels good. It feels good. It feels good.

I want you to embrace for the types of reactions that you might receive when you're talking about this stuff with people, if they're new to it,

if they're not a boundary person themselves, there's lots of different ways that people are going to react.

And first, they could respect your consequence, learn from the experience and do better.

34:45 --> 34:49

That could be the outcome. That's really cool. That could happen.

They could also do things like, quote, forget. There's a consequence in place.

Oh, are you still not talking to me? Because I said that one thing they could belittle you or call you quote crazy or tell you that there's something wrong with you.

All I said was this. It's nothing. Why are you so sensitive?

They could love bomb you so that you feel guilty. They could get angry. They can make themselves a victim.

Oh, you hate me. All I ever did was this. They could gaslight you. No, I didn't say that. What are you talking about?

They could ignore you or so. So you want to not engage with manipulative tactics if possible because they're trying to get you to break your boundary or consequence, which will which will harm you.

Right. So what we hope for is that they're going to respect your consequence.

Maybe there might be a little bit of other stuff in there because, you know, they're human.

But it's almost like you're parenting these people, which is not OK.

You should not have to do it. But perhaps your relationship gets better from it and perhaps, if nothing, you are able to protect yourself.

So I want to write down in your notes app or whatever, a couple of easy responses when you're experiencing anti-fat bias in the moment.

I'm not into diet talk. I'm not into anti-fatness or I'm going to change the subject because listen up here.

Listen up here. If you come up with some big, long, sassy, science filled response of, did you know blah, blah, blah, what's going to happen in that moment?

Something fucked up and then your brain is going to go, no, don't remember anything.

You should just start crying. You know, my brain does, not saying that you might do it.

But, you know, likelihood if you're newer to this stuff, it's hard. It's hard even for me. It's hard.

So just support yourself to do simple, even if it is just, oh, nice weather today, you know, then.

So you've got your responses for when, if it happens, just spur of the moment.

If you can, messaging people in response or the person, you know, that's the biggest boundary violator, with your boundary,

and then when they forget, remember what your first stage of consequence is, which is restating the boundary.

Then after that, if they do it again, you can decide what you want to do. You might decide I want to restate it again.

I'm going to give them five restates or whatever feels good for you in the moment.

Or I'm going to just do it once. Or I'm, you know, they don't get any, whatever feels right for you.

And then after that, I'm going to go to a different room and a conversation, whatever it is.

Also, the remove, reduce, protect because you can't always do this stuff.

We're not always in the position to be the best communicators for whatever reason.

So can you, if all of that ends up, fucks up, you go into, you go into spending time with your family or whatever,

and you've got the best intentions and then someone says something and you're just like, "Ugh!"

Protect, can you protect your mental health? Can you talk to a friend?

Can you go into fat community in groups? Blah, blah, blah.

Or can you, there's a song that Regan Chastain does, "Oh boundaries, oh boundaries, they help me deal with family."

"Oh boundaries, oh boundaries."

And the lyrics go, "Don't talk about my weight or food. Why can't you see it's hella rude?"

"Oh boundaries, oh boundaries, you help me deal with family."

It's on YouTube. Oh boundaries, let me find, let me see, I'll get the link. Oh boundaries link.

Don't we listen to that song. I think it's with Jeanette de Patti.

They might have another tune, another tune related to this. Okay, link.

Anyway, if you want more about this stuff, I have the whole training, this whole two hour training on this stuff,

which gives you word tracks, it gives you the jab technique that we've not spoken about today.

It gives you just a ton of other stuff, a ton of other stuff.

So if that's, you know, you're feeling like, "No, I need some more, I need some more ideas and responses."

And "I need to know how to whatever, I'm not doing very good at," "I need to know them types of boundaries."

"I need to know how to find things to remove, reduce, protect."

Then yeah, get the training. It's on, you can watch the replay.

If you feel called to leaving a review for the podcast, if you feel called to sharing your experiences on the FAT survey,

that would be a dreamy.

And again, just big giant fatty hug to you because you deserve a world that is free from bias against people's bodies and diet culture.

Horse shit! And in this corner of the world you will be.

You're welcome here, your body is respected here.

I think you're cool. Okay? Okay.

Well, have a lovely end of your year. We will see you in 2025.

Feels like a good, you know, quarter of a way into the century.

It's nice, like that, kind of quarter, nice round number.

Thank you for being here and we'll see you in the next episode.

Tata bye!

Episode 193 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Boundary Boss Live Training Announcement 0:00

• Dealing with Anti-Fat People in Personal Lives 2:02

• Supporting the Podcast Through Ko-fi 4:27

• Fat in Healthcare: Introduction and Inspiration 5:36

• Levels of Anti-Fat Bias in Healthcare 8:47

• Statistics and Stories of Anti-Fat Bias in Healthcare 9:54

• Impact of Anti-Fat Bias on Healthcare Outcomes 10:12

• Personal Stories of Medical Neglect and Discrimination 19:41

• The Role of Internalized and Externalized Anti-Fat Bias 30:37

• Institutional and Ideological Anti-Fat Bias 32:13

• Conclusion and Final Thoughts 42:57

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 193, fat in healthcare and ideological anti fat nurse, I'm your host. Vinny Welsby, let's do it.

Vinny Welsby 0:20

Hello. Welcome to the show. So pleased to have you here. This is your refuge from anti fat bullshit in the world. Come hang out with me. We'll have some good fatty times saying that, saying that this episode is kind of a trigger warning for anti fat bullshit stories of death by medical anti fatness. Sorry, sorry if you were coming here just for a fun time, but hey, listen, you might be in the US and listening to this on or near Thanksgiving. And if you are, and you are going to be spending time with people, even if you're not doing Thanksgiving, and you're a human that's going to be spending time with other humans who are not fat positive, who are into diet culture, into shaming fatness. Then I have a training that's happening on November the 20th, 2024 but there is a replay. So if you're listening to this after that date and the training sounds good, go and get the replay. I'll link it in the show notes, but it's boundary boss live, how to survive anti fatness over the holidays, something like that. I'm not looking at, I'm not looking at as we talk. But basically it's going to be, I'm going to be talking about how, how to deal with people in your life who are really fucking annoying, but you might love and maybe I don't know, maybe you don't, and you don't know how to deal with these people. So in my life, I previous to this work, when I first came into this work, almost everyone around me was really into dieting, really into talking about their diets, really into hating fatness. And, you know, hoped for me that I would be thin, thinner, and I was one of those people, too. And it's really difficult when you're newer to fat liberation, we tend to be surrounded by a lot of people who are who are like, you know, tell you that your body is bad, or talk about how their body is bad and they have a smaller body than you. Or they say, Well, I'm just worried about your health, or whatever it is, and it can be difficult to find our feet and to know how to deal with those. And just by the way, of what happened with me three categories of the people that I used to be around a lot. Either one, they grew with me. I set boundaries. We came to an understanding. We understand and love each other and know how to communicate without harming each other around anti fatness. Two, I have limited contact with those people. If I'm forced to see them for whatever reason, limited contact and I don't engage in Body Talk or three, they're cut out for my life and not saying that you need to do any of those things, because those things might not be appropriate for you or where you're at in your life and your circumstances, but that's what happened with me, and you know what? It's Vinny. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about the people they spend the most time with saying, oh my god, I'm so fat. Have you tried the new diet, you know, or whatever. I don't know why they would suddenly turn into an American. I don't know what type of accent that is. And being offensive to someone, yeah, apart from, you know, a random person on the random passer by being like, hey, diets, that happens sometimes. So you can't protect yourself from that. That happens sometimes, right? So anyway, yeah, if you want, if you're interested in that, go to the link in the show notes to either watch, if you're if you're come live, if it's before the 20th or watch the replay. And hey, I need to mention this, if you enjoy the show, then go check out ko fi. Ko fi, which is like Patreon, if you want to support my work. I have not had any new ko fi people within a while, you know what? And I was thinking, you know, I've not told you about it. I don't think also, my podcast is only out once a month now. So anyway, if you like my work, you want to, you want to sling me five bucks or not, whatever you. Kofi is a way to do it. Well, I guess with Kofi, if you don't want to say slim me five bucks, don't go there.

Vinny Welsby 5:10

All right, but the podcast is funded by Kofi members to cover I don't make money from doing the podcast. I lose money, but the current donations that I have cover partially the costs for getting it edited, and then all the other admin work on the backside. So, so yeah, that's my anyway. Let's talk about fat in healthcare. I was inspired by this because I was talking with someone and they were telling me about this report that was done in BC, British Columbia, where I'm at, talking about racism, anti indigenous racism in healthcare. And so there was a report done, published too long, didn't read basic, not the report I didn't read. I'm saying too long, too long. TLDR, for you. So you you know, if you want to know the gist of the report, there's tons of racism in healthcare. Surprise, who knew? Yeah, everyone knew. Maybe not white people anyway. So this inspired me. The report inspired me to make this health one health episode, because I've got this picture in my mind of these stages. You know how like, I like visualizing things and making making the Instagram hosts, because I like visualizing things in simple ways. And I was thinking about the ways that fat folks are treated in healthcare, and it's also inspired me too. You know, I don't know if you remember, but in the summer, I made the fat at work report, which was this epic. You can go get it. It's free, epic report where 300 plus of you completed a survey telling me about your experiences of being fat in the workplace. 96.65% of you said you experienced anti fat bias in the workplace. So that's huge, gargantuan number, and I want to make that a one for healthcare as well. So I'm telling you now I'm making this podcast to force myself to do the thing I have ADHD, right? So sometimes I have these ideas in my head and I need to do something to force myself to do it. I've been thinking about it for a while, so I'm forcing myself to tell you about this survey. And the link to do the survey about your experiences, about being fat and engaging in healthcare, are going to be in the show notes. I've not yet created it, but I will by the time this episode comes out, and I would love to know your experiences. So this is going over the structural there's the structural way that that fat people engage in healthcare, and what is going on, what to expect. I mean, you know, if you're fat, if you're if you're a gender marginalized if you're if you're any type of marginalized person, you know what it's like to engage in healthcare is eye rolly. Not great. But I want to share some stories, talk about some stuff. Again, if this is not feeling good for you. Please skip this episode, because I'm going to talk about some shit shown links to everything that I'm talking about in the show notes. Yeah, so I've got this. I'm going to post this on Instagram, but I'm thinking about this, you know, zero to five point scale type thing, of how fat people are engaging in healthcare or accessing healthcare, and what happens normally and what needs to happen instead. So if we look at level zero, what happens is level zero is healthcare avoidance. So fat people can't or won't engage in healthcare due to previous bias, and shit experiences that we've had or delayed accessing healthcare, and the outcome of this is that health issues get worse. There's the treatment is delayed and potentially death. I'm going to go into all of the what actually the outcomes from having shitty anti fats, interactions with doctors leads to so first off, fat people are not even engaging in health care a lot of times because it's so traumatizing. Next level, one is initial contact. Initial contact. Often we are denied health care, full stop, just full stop. Told go away, lose weight, don't come back until you are this way. An example of this is IVF clinics. A lot of IVF clinics won't even talk to a patient if their BMI is over a certain amount, and that BMI is low, they just won't even. Let them book an appointment, so someone's got the courage to go and to try and access healthcare, and immediately it's like no, go away. You are denied basic healthcare. So level two, again, initial contact, the concerns that are brought up by the patient are attributed solely or mostly on weight, and you're denied evidence based healthcare told to lose weight, plus other interventions that are not evidence based, aka, told to quote, eat healthy and to quote, exercise more without knowing how much you actually exercise or what you eat. This is being treated poorly due to size, judgment and discrimination, so that leads to worse health, health outcomes and death. An example of this would be the IVF clinic, if you even get an appointment, won't offer health care unless the patient loses weight and blames weight on the reason why you're not able to conceive, and that's without testing. Is just looking at your body and saying, Okay, well, you know, you got an appointment with the help with the clinic, but the clinic is going to tell you, go away, lose weight. You CAN'T get pregnant because you're fat with literally just by looking using their eyeballs, no testing and no test is going to say you're too fat to get pregnant, because that test doesn't exist. So level three say you've got past those two, you've, you've, you've gone and seen someone, and now you're accessing health care. So at that point you could experience infrastructural and institutional inequity. So infrastructural is the actual structures within healthcare, so unable to access access equipment or treatment, etc. So this can cause delays in healthcare and worse health outcomes, or things like cut offs on procedures for BMI that are that are an institutional so a part of the hospital, this hospital system says we don't give gender affirming care to people over a BMI of this so institutionally, there's anti fatness, and that could be as well with the initial contact that institutional anti fatness. But if you're engaging in health care, pretty likely you're going to be coming up against both these infrastructural and institutional anti fatness, okay, level four accessing health care. So if you are able to access health care, you may experience sub par care due to stereotypes and discrimination. And the outcome of this is worse care. Well, worse health outcomes and death. And so this is the the the judgments that healthcare providers might be making about a fat patient, that they're non compliant, that they're lazy, that they're the what's the point? Because they're just going to, you know, be lazy and greedy and horrible. And one I've spoken about a lot, example of this is the HQ and one bird flu, you know, around COVID, when there was all I say, around COVID, COVID still thing, but the beginning of COVID, and everyone was like, Oh, my God, all fat people, they have worse health outcomes. And they said, hey, we'll look at the bird flu that happened there with with the bird flu, fat people had worse health outcomes. After they did a meta analysis of all of the data and looked at what was actually going on. If they found that fat patients would be being treated differently when accessing health care, and because of that, they were experiencing worse health outcomes. However, if a fat patient was treated the same as someone in a smaller body, they would have the same outcomes, and so then you've experiencing the sub par health care, and stage five is patient is unable to engage in health care or chooses not to in order to protect their mental and physical health. The outcome was care, was health outcomes and death, and we're back to the beginning, unable to engage in health care or choosing not to because it's not safe. And you could have already tried. We could have gone through this cycle many times, right? We could have tried to access health care and being cut off at level one, like, Nope, you're not even getting through the door. Or if you get to level two, you're getting through the door. But, you know, lose weight, because that's clearly what's going on. And if you get to level three, then it's, you know, shit care, right?

Vinny Welsby 14:24

Oh, so I'm going to visualize this in an Instagram post, by the way. So poor outcomes of anti fat bison health, health care. Here's some stats for you. If you want some stats, we love, we love a little stat. Okay, so studies have shown that up to 70% of health care providers may hold negative attitudes towards fat patients. I feel like that's gonna that's conservative, don't you? Don't you? Yeah, you do, don't you? You think 70% is conservative? Yeah, and I think this is conservative too. 30 to 40% of fat patients experience bias from healthcare providers, including derogatory comments and some issues. Unsolicited advice and inappropriate assumptions about their health behaviors. And by the way, the we've got links for multiple studies for both of those lower quality healthcare, less likely to receive appropriate preventative care and more likely to experience misdiagnosis, delayed treatment and have their concerns dismissed or attributed solely to their weight we have increased mortality, the chronic stress induced by weight stigma can activate biological pathways that promote weight gain. Who cares? But more more weight equals more stigma, including elevated cortisol levels, increased inflammation and dysregulated metabolism. I'm quoting from an up worthy article here that links to a couple of studies, and they wrote a 2015, Lancet study found that doctors take less time with fat patients. By the way, almost all of these links contain o words, and even though they're talking about anti fat bias and how it's bad, they still spout anti fat bias, bullshit. Honestly, honestly, the amount of articles where it says, oh my god, anti fat bias is terrible. But you know, fat people, they are really unhealthy. He's like, what can you not say? Hello, you're writing an article about anti fatness, and you start off by right in there with the anti fatness, honestly. So every single one of these, these things, not every actually, there's like one or two that I'll tell you, the one that I know is good

Vinny Welsby 16:33

has BS in there anyway. Let me finish. Finish the quote. A 2015, Lancet study found that doctors take less time with fat patients and are more reluctant, reluctant to screen them for other health issues. It also found that health care workers tend to stereotype fat people as less likely to follow medical advice and stick to medications. A 2020 17 review of research from the American Psychological Association also found that medical discrimination based on people's size is a real issue, and fat patients are more likely to have undiagnosed medical issues. Quote, In one study of over 300 autopsy reports, fat patients were 1.65 times more likely than others to have significant undiagnosed medical conditions. For example, endocarditis. Ischemic bowel disease and lung carcinoma, indicating misdiagnosis or inadequate care and adequate access to health care, quoting from a Washington Post article, by the way, I've linked to things behind a paywall through archive.ph archive.ph if you ever hit a paywall, just put your link in there and it will, um, redirect you to for you to be able to read it. There's a Washington Post article doctors have fat phobia too, which does serious harm to patients, by Kate Mann, the illustration is really fucking good. There's an illustration done by Michelle condrich, and there's a patient sat and there's a doctor or healthcare provider in scrubs and gloves and a mask, and the patient's sticking out their tongue, and they've got that wooden stick on the tongue, and the little lights, you know the what's it called, fucking flashlight torch, if you're the British, the flashlight, which should be looking in the patient's mouth, is directed onto their belly. I thought that was a really smart image, so, and it looks like that the healthcare provider is looking in their mouth, but the flashlight is just illuminating the belly anyway. Couple of quotes from that piece. One study showed that fat patients were rated more negatively by doctors on 12 out of 13 indexes, including this patient would feel like a waste of my time, and this patient would annoy me. We receive fewer expressions of empathy and concerns from providers who build less rapport with fat patients and often hold hold that we are lazy and non compliant. Such views are not only false, they can contravene the moral principle that everybody deserves humane, compassionate medical care regardless of their weight or health status. Okay, we've got some stories from that worthy article. These are people's, you know, self reporting. So anyway, my little sister started to feel fatigued and dizzy at nine years old. She felt nauseated at the site of food and had abdominal pain that increased with physical activity. Mum got her to the ER and the doctors dismissed it, saying she's fat and probably is feeling ill after eating too much burgers, get her temp, do some exercise, and she'll feel better in no time. I didn't my mum didn't feel okay with the diagnosis, and took my sister to a second doctor, who also told her that she the child was fat, her sister's skin. Was starting to get yellow As the days passed and the abdominal pain was getting awful. So my mum, heaven, bless her, got her to the ER for the third time. She had stage four hepatitis and was about to die. She survived after a long and painful recovery, which involved being in bed for a whole year. Remember that we're speaking about a nine year old child. Luckily, they saved her liver, and she didn't. She didn't go through a transplant. But let this sink in. If it weren't for my mother, fatphobia would have killed her. Fat phobia kills kids and teenagers. Fat phobia kills innocent people every day. It treats human beings as lesser than others, and hurts them in the most vulnerable times. It's a real shame that we all have so much, so many stories to share about this issue, a real shame. There's a tweet from Everett Dion at free black girl. I discovered today that doctors have been gaslighting me for over three years. I have I've had a real medical problem that they've been attributing to me being fat. Fuming is an understatement. They've been overlooking a problem in one of my vital organs and saying it or saying all the symptoms were caused by the size of my body. If I've not gone to the doctor thinking I was having an asthma attack, the problem would not have been found. Another story a friend from college who had been going to the doctors because she was having trouble breathing, she was told to lose weight. Over the course of several years, she went back to the doctors time and time again, telling them that she'd been sticking to the diet, but because of her breathing problems, she had been unable to even walk more than 20 minutes at a time. The doctor got her into an exercise program and told her that she just needed to really try to lose weight, because that was clearly the reason for the breathing problems. By the time they found the tumor in her lungs, it was inoperable. She only if. Three months after diagnosis, she was 25 she'd had the tumor for over five years. The doctor was so focused on the fact that my friend was fat that they refused to look for underlying any underlying cause. They killed her. Someone responded weight first treatment kills. Fat phobia kills so other other outcomes from all of this bullshit is obviously death. There's a piece from from a website called stat. Stat is is exclusive biopharma health policy and life science analysis. Anyway, the the article is, my sister's cancer might have been diagnosed sooner if doctors could have seen beyond her weight. And so I'm pulling some quotes from there. My older sister Jan visited me in San Francisco last spring. The author is Laura Fraser, by the way, my older sister Jan visited me in San Francisco last spring. You look great. I told her, noticing that her clothes were hanging loose, she'd been heavy most of her life. I've lost 60 pounds, she said. And I automatically congratulated her. I wasn't trying. She replied. It hit me then that something was very wrong, first with her health, but also with the way that I assumed that her weight loss was a sign of well being. My own judgments and shame associated with being fat got in the way of seeing my sister looking closer, her face seemed strained, and despite the constant smile she turned on, she wasn't well. She told me that she'd been in so much pain that she'd had little appetite for months. I asked Jan if she'd seen a doctor she had, but it hadn't gone well. The Doctor she'd known for years had converted his practice into a concierge service, and she hadn't wanted to pay the extra 15,000 to stay with him, so she'd made an appointment with an OBGYN a friend had recommended. Jan's eyes welled up as she described the visit. She had run down her symptoms, vaginal bleeding and explained weight loss and near constant pelvic pain. She told me the doctor hadn't taken her complaints seriously, dismissing her concerns and performing a routine examination. He didn't do anything for me, and he didn't find anything. He just saw me as a fat, complaining older woman. John said, demeaned and discouraged. She didn't seek a second opinion right away. Instead, she explored possible causes of her abdomen, abdominal pain, wasting months avoiding dairy and gluten and taking over the counter pain medications. During our visit in San Francisco, I encouraged Jan to see another doctor to get to the bottom of what was ailing her. A few months later, she finally got an appointment at an internist office, a physician assistant examined her. Jan arrived at the visit weak and racked with pain. She came out of it in tears with no answers and no relief, she wouldn't give me anything because she thought I was just trying to get an opioid fix. She told Cynthia, who had a company who had accompanied her, did the physician assistant think Jan was putting on an act to CAD drugs because she was fat and that despite her detailed and articulate medical complaints, not to mention her obvious and tremendous pain, she fit some undisciplined drug seeking profile. The physician's assistant did at least send Jan to have some blood tests. When she had finished giving blood, she was so exhausted she couldn't drive herself home very early the next morning, Jan got a call from the internist, who even though he had never met. Met her, told her to immediately go to the emergency room. She was quickly admitted to the intensive care unit in critical condition for the sky, high level of calcium in her blood, an MRI revealed an enormous mass in her abdomen. When Jan was stable enough for surgery, the hospital's gynecologic oncologist removed the largest endometrial tumor that he said he'd ever seen, the size of a volleyball born. It had peppered her pelvis with cancer infiltrating her bladder and other organs. The MRI also showed spots on Jan's lungs, likely signs that the disease was spreading even further. In hindsight, endometrial cancer is an easy disease to Google. The first few hits reveal signs and symptoms, unexplained weight loss, vaginal bleeding after menopause, pelvic pain, pain. Jen had them all. I'm no doctor, and I know that physicians are not infallible, but it strikes me that those symptoms, the ones the patient came in worried about, should have raised red flags far more than the fact that she was fat. Jan went through a few rounds of chemotherapy and lost even more weight. She took some perverse pleasure at being able to fit into normal size clothes. I'm putting a quotation there, and fashionable clothes for the first time in her life, not the UN sophisticated, uninspired garments that most manufacturers muster for plus size women. By then, she'd lost about 100 pounds, and despite her conspicuous, conspicuous, conspicuous, conspicuous, conspicuous illness, the wig, the pallor, the fear in her eyes, people kept on complimenting her about her weight loss, they too, saw only her size. Jan died last Christmas Eve, six months after learning she had cancer. That's not the full article, if you want to read it. There's obviously some little bits of anti fatness in there and the O words, but I feel like it was written with compassion, and that's from 2017 and then this person has written a book about on this topic. One's called losing it. America's obsession with weight and the industry that feeds on it. I've not heard of that. Maybe I have let me, let me look at it. So I don't want to say, go read it, because I don't know if this is a safe person. No, I've not. I've not okay. I guess it is from 1997 No. Anyway, that story, another story that was gained a lot of attention, was of a Canadian person who in her obituary, let me just read it so Ellen Maud, daughter, Ellen Maud Bennett, daughter, sister and aunt, Ellen Maude Bennett, who passed away age 64 on May 11, 2018 was to most who met her an unforgettable character. I'm reading bits from the obituary. Worry, by the way, this photo was taken one week before her death, and the photo shows a

Vinny Welsby 27:57

white woman with long blonde hair and smiling. Looking at the camera, she looks pretty vibrant, and it says she chose it for her obituary, because, as she said, I look so good for someone almost dead. She sounds funny. A final message Ellen wanted to share was about the fat shaming she endured from the medical benacle medical profession. Over the last few years of feeling unwell, she sought out medical intervention, and no one offered any support or suggestions beyond weight loss. Ellen's dying wish was that women of size make her death matter by advocating strongly for their health and not accepting that fat is the only relevant health issue. So listen here. Now, I know what some people might be feeling after we have to listen to those two stories. They're worried, oh my god, is that going to be me? And I want you to know that just by knowing about fat liberation and knowing that you deserve health care is almost like a a little bit of an immunization from anti fatness, not a complete one, because we're going to experience it, right? And at times we're going to be like, oh god, is this true? Do I do? Am I a terrible person that just needs to lose weight? But you've got this kind of foundation of knowing, huh, that doesn't sound right. And hopefully that turning into advocating for yourself and not saying that these people who you know, Ellen and Jan who died this, therefore it's not there for not, absolutely not. But maybe, if they had extra tools at their disposal, maybe the exact same thing would happen. Because, you know, doctors, you know, can behave like anti fat donkeys. But I want to just make you not take away from that that, Oh, my God, you. You are going to have the same experience. I mean, you might who knows what's going to happen in our lives, but by understanding we are worth health care and that losing weight is not going to cure your condition, we may be able to advocate for ourselves better. We may get better outcomes. We may not right. And the type of cancer that Jan had was a particularly aggressive type of cancer. I'm not sure about Ellen. We didn't have that extra information. But just because someone is diagnosed with cancer doesn't mean that they will die. By the way, Ellen died five days after her diagnosis, so thinking about all of this stuff, it makes me think about the image that I made, which is the levels of anti fat bias. And if you are familiar with it, it's the one, the thing that looks like a triangle, but I'm going to describe it out for you. There's a triangle, and it's split into four sections, four equal sections, and at the top one says intrapersonal or internalized anti fat bias. So that is your beliefs about fat people or fatness. And so if you're a fat person, you're going to have internalized anti fatness. That's going to look like negative self talk, agreeing with anti fat beliefs, trying not to be fat by dieting and taking drugs, etc. If you were in a smaller body, you're going to have internalized size privilege. So that's a belief that having a small, smaller body makes you morally superior than is due to the better choices and behavior that fat people fail to make, that you do make. So a lot of doctors will have that internalized size privilege and will have that. Well, it's easy for me to be this size. You know, all I do is, you know, with the same thing that a fat person does, lives their life, or whatever it is that they do, and are looking at Fat people like, why can't you just get your shit together, do what I do, do what I tell you, and stop being so XYZ, right? The next level on the triangle is interpersonal. So we're going down from the top of the triangle, and that's how individuals treat fat people. And so that's things like being fat shamed and rejected as a romantic partner, fat jokes, diet talk told to lose weight. And so interpersonal, if you're talking to a doctor, they could be giving you some of that interpersonal anti fat bias the next level. So we cut it in half, like the first two, they are like surface level. When I say surface level, I don't mean they're not that impactful. They are very impactful. But when we think about anti fatness, we think about how the way we feel about ourselves and how others treat fat people, and we don't necessarily think about what's below the surface, but we need to consider all aspects, all levels of anti fat bias if we're going to dismantle anti fat bias, and especially the bottom two. The bottom two are institutional and ideological. So institutional is the belief society holds about fatness and how it treats others or you due to those beliefs. And so these are things like being denied access to IVF, adoption, fostering children, employment, donating your body to science, buying a home, health and life insurance, Immigration and Citizenship, gender affirmation surgery, organ transplants, etc, etc. As if that list isn't enough, right? So institutional, I would lump in here as well. Is infrastructural, which is the structural way that you're denied, you know, not being able to find seats or MRI machine that fits, or a gown that fits, etc, in healthcare, so institutionally, healthcare practitioners are, wherever they're working, will have institutional anti fat bias, and finally, ideological, which is what I've titled the podcast, is talking about ideological, which is the idea that fat people are inferior, ethically, morally, and don't deserve dignity and respect. And it's a social culture and political belief, and that's the everybody knows that fat people are unhealthy, lazy and attractive, and we should just lose weight. And that is what I think, that is the basis of the issues with healthcare, is the ideological anti fatness that is woven into a healthcare provider's brain and all of our brains, right? And not healthcare providers are not special, but from before they've even started their training, throughout their training and throughout their career, they are taught to ideologically believe that fat people are inferior, and there might be some softening on that, and the softening is what we're seeing now with the organizations like Novo Nordisk, who are the manufacturers of azem Pick, who are trying to push. Narrative that it's not the fault of fat people, that they're fat and they're fat and lazy and greedy and disgusting. It's not their fault they have some type of problem, like it's a disease, right? That's a softening of the ideological anti fatness. It's the idea of love the sinner, Hate the sin, that fatness is inherently bad, but fat people can't help it. So let's, let's, let's treat them poorly with a smile on our face. So that's where we're at now that that that softening of of ideological anti fatness, which is not helpful, because the solution when you've got that softening of ideological anti fatness. When I say softening, I'm not sure if that's the right word. It's maybe morphing, changing. The solution is still to erase fat people, right? It's still to kill fat people. It's still to rid the planet of fat people. So we need to change that ideological anti fatness piece in order to change all of those other areas in healthcare, right? I feel like it's, you know, obviously we need to be able to access healthcare, but if we're stopped and, you know, have gowns that fit in wheelchairs and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, but if we can't even get a foot in the door, because we know that we're going to experience interpersonal, anti fatness, institutional anti fatness. We're not going to get to the place where we can put on a gown that doesn't fit. And if we do get to that place, you know, we're wearing a gown that doesn't fit, we will already be harmed, be harmed by ideological anti fatness. So this is the one that, this is the article, the the the one link that I would say is is safe. It's from ama Journal of ethics, illuminating the art of medicine,

Vinny Welsby 36:48

five ways healthcare can be better for fat people by Kristen, a, Hardy M, a, I feel like I I know of Kristen like we've probably message Kristen if you're listening. Hi. Love your work. So quote from this, fat suffering and death, much of the existing work on better accommodating fat people's knees within North American healthcare settings focuses on reducing stigma and addressing inadequate medical equipment, in some cases, inadequate equipment and surgery related issues can be a matter of life, of life or death. The Computed Tomography or magnetic resonance resonance imaging scanner that was not designed to accommodate the bodies of larger members of the population, the surgeon who never learned to operate on fat bodies because their medical school, medical school refused the donation of fat cadavers. By the way, most places don't take fat people for research or anything like that. If they're when I say fat people over 180 pounds, which is not fat, so all of the research is being done on thin people. Okay, refusal donation of fat cadavers or the loss of life due to impaired health and well being from bariatric surgery, these deaths are collectively uncountable. The results, however, is the loss of precious lives and the irreversible trauma to families, friends and communities. Other outcomes are not as often as deadly, but may result in significant damage to physical or psychological health when, for example, clinicians expressions of weight bias result in, quote, health care seekers of higher weight ceasing or contact with clinicians joint replacements in Healthy People being denied on the basis of BMI or eating disorders being induced or re triggered by the bigoted comments of those entrusted with healing to every survivor of medical weight bias is suffering in limitation of activities, economic impoverishment through imposed disability or other negative consequences, are lived experiences that come on top of the already serious health impacts of broader social and cultural fat phobia. Yes, yet these sequelae of encounters with medical fat phobia cannot be tackled, apart from their root causes, the dominance of thin centric ideology, but the pathologization of fatness a failure to foster the leadership of fat people and a biomedical health system that continues to elevate the powers of power of physicians over that of healthcare seekers fat and otherwise, ultimately, we cannot understand and effectively address the specifics of the induced suffering of fat people within or excluded from biomedical context without looking to the poor inequalities that ground and support them, to the power sorry, to the power inequalities that ground and support them. That's a good, that's a good, that's a good. It's not too long this piece, so you can probably read it in 10 minutes. So. Minutes. One minute. I don't know how long it'll take you to read, but anyway, that's from 2023 really great, really great. How am I gonna end this? Hey, Elizabeth, this is how I'm gonna end it. That's how I'm gonna end it. Listen. Some good news. Okay, some good news. So I train, I train organizations, right? I help individuals and organizations and learn anti fat but anti fat buyers. And I gotta tell you, I gotta tell you, things are changing 100% not have they're changing 100% but I 100% feel like they're changing really, really, really. So I've been doing this work for 10 years longer, I think probably I need to. I always need to go and check my LinkedIn to see how long I've been doing, doing this work. And I'm like, what Jesus would that be that long? I'm always like, Oh, it's seven years. And it's like, no, it's 11 years or whatever. I don't know. Let's just say 10, whatever. Anyway, 10 years ago, just absolutely not, absolutely not to get this was, this felt very like a very, very, very difficult topic to get people to get on board with whenever I'd be having conversations. By the way, this is my experience. Okay, so take that with a grain of salt, whatever it's called. But if I had conversations with people 10 years ago, and I was having conversation with people 10 years ago, hey, fat people are human. And, you know, wild things like that. What do you talk about? Vinny people are not human. Silly sausage. Anyway, I would, I would be getting a lot of pushback. I remember about seven years ago. So I used to be in recruitment, so I had a lot of contacts in HR, in Vancouver, many, many, many contacts. And I remember about seven years ago, and then again, about five years ago, reaching out to all of those HR people and saying, Hey, if your organization wants to include this in their dei planning. And no one was interested. No one was interested. Now, they're really fucking interested. Some people, though, there are still, there is obviously, obviously, there's still lot. No, I say some, there's still lots of people. And I'm talking about people who are leaders and maybe in the DEI world. But people are hungry for this now. People are like, yeah, fat people human. I'm a bored, and I think that we should be kind of fat people. You know, whereas five years ago, 10 years ago, it would be like, Are Fat People human? And there'd be a few people who were like, Yeah, but a lot of people were like, and some people like, but it only if they're healthy. So things, mine is my anecdotal, very kind of rough idea of feeling, of this, this work of we're getting to that point where everyone knows and you know, like, for example, I did a training with with healthcare providers a month ago, and I said to them, so how many diets you know? What do we know about diets? How many diets work? Basically, I said it in a in a more robust way, but how many diets work? And many of them said zero. And I was like, What the fuck? Huh? How do you how do you not know that diets don't work? This is amazing. Some of them were like, oh, you know, yeah, but what about this one? And so that basic thing of like, diets don't work. A lot of them know. But then there was still kind of, yeah, but my patients fat so and the fatness is causing the problem. So how do I get them to listen to me and not be fat anymore? You know, this is after the training, and I'm like, no, no. Anyway, they might not have been listening to the training and just randomly asked Anyway, whatever. I'm so thankful about that. It really, really, really, really, makes me excited about what the future holds for fat folks, knowing that things are maybe question mark, continuing to get better question mark. I'm even just saying that I feel scared, that I've just jinxed it, and, you know, I'm just delusional. I don't know again, if you wanted to come to that training, if you're if you're around family in the next couple of months, or if you're around anyone ever, just for the rest of your life, that talk shit about fat and fat, fat people and whatnot, and you want to know how to deal with them and some strategies and word tracks, all that jazz. Come along to my training. Link will be in the show notes, boundary boss live, or get the replay. If you enjoyed the show and you want to contribute to more cool, fat stuff, go to KO fi. You get. Some free stuff in return, and thanks for hanging out with me today. It was tonight. I like doing podcasts. I like, I feel like I'm hanging out with people, but, you know, I'm on my own. I just imagine, I know, we're in a big group together, listening, talking about fat stuff, and it's just me and my own. This is my fantasy. So yeah, thanks for hanging out with me today. Remember you are worthy. You always were. You always will be and stay fierce fatty. See you next time. A good boy.

Episode 192 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Ozempic Overview and Initial Impressions 0:00

• Critique of Ozempic Studies and Health Claims 4:48

• Public Perception and Usage of Ozempic 6:26

• Side Effects and Health Concerns 29:05

• Real-World Experiences and Personal Stories 42:04

• Marketing and Social Media Influence 1:04:14

• Final Thoughts and Personal Reflections 1:07:30

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 192, Ozempic/ Wegovy 2 years on. Let's do it.

Hello. Welcome to this episode. So pleased that you're here. You're right, all right, you're right, all right, good. Glad you're here, glad you're alive, glad you're into the fat stuff. I'm excited to talk today about ozemon. I did an episode in Feb, 2003 2023 Jesus Christ, not 20 years ago. 2023 I did a two part on azem Pick slash wegovy. The correct word, brand name of the weight loss drug is wegovy, but everyone's just run with those ZEM picks. So it's hard to know what to refer I mean, you know, and then we could use the actual, you know, drug active ingredient too, but I think azem Pick is what everyone knows. So even though it's incorrect, otherwise, some people are taking a Zen pick off label for weight loss. Let's just call, let's just to say a Zen pick. And no, we're referring to wegovy or azem pick for weight loss. Anyway, I did a two part episode. It was really popular, and it's been two years, which is what almost two years, year and a half. And what's happened in that time, what is going on? So I'll link the the other two episodes in the show notes. We really go into what is a Zen pick. We go V what is happening. Deep Dive into everything. But as a reminder, if you don't want to listen to two plus hours of content to get up to date on and what we're talking about today, I made an Instagram post kind of summarizing those two episodes. And so I'm going to read the Instagram post to you again. It'll be linked in the show notes, and you can share it on social if you want, or whatever. But the the post I've made, I've shared it a couple of times since. So this is the most recent share that I'm going to link to is we go via Zen pick the miracle weight loss drug. It's made out to be, what does the science actually show? What's your what's your answer, what's your answer, what's your guess? If you listen to the previous episodes, you'll know the answer. What's your guess? No, no. Okay. So the post reads, we go v ezepic. Semaglutide is a new injectable weight loss jog. This is how the media has been reporting on it. And so in the Instagram post, we have all of the headlines, and it says, a new miracle weight loss drug, the end of O word, a game changer, basically that people are just, you know, wanking over themselves with excitement that fat people are going to disappear Next slide. So is wegovy slash ozempic, a miracle, game changing weight loss drug. Let's look at novo nordisks, the manufacturer's own data. How much weight do people lose on average? Okay, so what's your guess? Over 68 weeks, how much a month does someone lose? According to novonovo Nordisk, two pounds a month. Oh, my Lord, totals. Is 33 pounds. Oh, by the way, I should put a trigger warning that we're going to be talking about weight. I'll avoid tech people sharing their weights and things like that, but there's side effects and just weight loss bullshit in here, I'll be mentioning things like this, like how much people studies show that people lose, and what's going on. But I'm not going to be sharing people's weights, by the way. Okay, so two pounds a month, which is, I mean, losing any type of weight is really, really difficult for most people, and so two pounds a month might be a big amount for some people, but, you know, is that a miracle or a game changer? Oh, I don't think so. Also, participants needed to exercise 30 minutes a day and six days a week, as well as taking the injection. And at 60 weeks, the participants weights plateaued, and that was people still taking the medication. And in the in a follow up study, a year later, two thirds of the weight was regained fun. And so then there was problems with the study a child was planned, funded for by drug manufacturer Novo Nordisk. Obviously, every single all very involved. Multiple conflicts of interest. I financial benefiting, beneficial relationships with Novo Novo employees conducted and conducted the statistical analysis and provided editorial writing assistance. There's missing information on trial, design, recruitment and protocol. Results are not replicable because of that fact, many people were excluded from the study, and it was only 68 weeks. Um, I'm paraphrasing some of this, but doesn't week over improve your health. Novo reported that there were many health benefits. This is what they actually found. The HBA 1c a diabetes measured the change was, was from 5.7 at the start of the study to 5.6 a 0.1% difference. This is not a significant change. Again, remember, this is for non diabetics, cholesterol, triglycerides and inflammation markers. Went from normal range to normal range, and the Canadian agency for drugs and technologies and health refused to approve it for drug public drug plans. They said there is no evidence to show that this weight loss translates to improvements in weight related comorbidities. It also has a black box warning. 95% of participants had side effects. 10% had serious side effects. And if you Isn't that one of the slides says, Is it true that once you stop taking we go V you're put on weight. Not only is that true, but you can still be taking the drug and put on weight anyway. So there's more. There's more stuff in that post, if you want to go really, but that's the the long and short of it. The long and short of it is it doesn't necessarily offer what people think of as life changing weight loss. That weight loss stops at about a year, which is, you know, what happens with diet, right? And then if you stop taking it, all the weight comes back. And even if you keep taking it, the weight loss is plateauing and on the increase. So that's where we were two years ago, ish, and from sharing that information, some people shared their experiences. So I'm going to read three of them, just so you can get an idea of what people were saying. Someone said it took I took it for a year, and towards the end, at higher doses, it was horrific. It shut down my bowels, and I was nauseated and sick from it. The ear on it was not worth the 30 pounds I lost. I'm sorry. I just read out the weight loss there. My doctor wanted me to lose weight. I did not ask for it. Now I see the ridiculousness of it. Why do we make ourselves miserable to lose weight, I'm working on being satisfied, satisfied with my body. Instead. Next person says, I took this a couple of years back for weight loss. It worked because it suppressed my appetite. Ate like a bird, but I ate. They say something, ignore that. That was the quote, miracle. It sucked to inject myself every week, and the dose had to keep rising, because after a couple of weeks, my body would get used to that dose and slow down. After four months of taking it, I asked my doctor, when do I stop? And he said, you don't. I told him I'd like to stop. And he said, the weight will come back. It did waste of money and time and energy. I felt worse mentally than I did before I started. My health was perfectly fine. My doctor doesn't like me being fat and always comments it's something I'm working on with him, aka shutting down that shit. Shutting that shit down. My mother took it for six months and it did nothing for her, not one damn pound. She felt horrible mentally like something was wrong with her, and it took her money. Someone else said I have tried semaglutide from Novo Nordisk, but I had to stop taking it because I felt nauseous all the time, and it only had a minimal effect on my weight. Besides this, it was extremely expensive. Yeah. So in 2013 I asked people on my Instagram Stories, are you taking wegovy slashes, Olympic and 91% of people said no, 2% said yes, 2% said no, but a different drug for weight loss, and 5% said yes for diabetes. So 4% were taking a weight loss drug and 91% were not now I asked that question again. It's October the ninth. I asked the question 2024 I asked that question again to my followers. And the question was, are you taking ask the same question? So in 2023 beginning of 2023 91% said no. And october 2024, 87% said no. So 4% increase, 8% said yes for weight loss. So in 2023 2% said yes, 5% said yes for diabetes. In 20. 23 5% said yes for diabetes. So the diabetes people haven't changed, and then No, but I'm taking a different weight loss drug is 1% interesting, so 10% are taking weight loss drugs in 2024

and in 2023 it was 4% this is just my followers. So this is very unscientific, and it's interesting to see that people are taking less of different weight loss drugs, probably because ozempic Novo Nordisk have spent millions and millions of dollars on marketing. Ozempic wegovy has benefited from that, and also other I asked people, have you heard of a zimpic wegovy semaglutide before and in 2023 42% said yes, from an anti fat resource source. In 2024 53% said yes from an anti fat source. So more people are hearing about ozempic from anti fat people. Now let's have a look at yes from a pro fat source was 25% in 2023 from a pro fat source is 12% Wow. That's a big difference, probably because there's a lot of marketing. And also, you know, the pro fat people who were talking about a Zen pick, they're not relentless in in the same way that this, you know, multi million billion dollar company is in their marketing efforts. So, you know, it's just a few of us being like, hey. And you know, with me. Last time I did covered it was, you know, almost two years ago, because I'm just one person, right? 33% said, Yes, I don't know the source. In 2024 in 2023 15% said, don't know the source. And in 2023 18% said, I've not heard of it. Guess how many people haven't heard of it? Now, 1% of people, that's Wow. It's really become part of our consciousness. And just that, that short time frame before I, when I was making this, before I was ex, you know, really having to explain everything about what ozempic is. And now I feel like a lot of people are like, yeah, yeah, we know. There you go. The data shows it. So what's been going on since then? What is the crack? What's been happening? Well, one thing that I saw was that there's a really smart person that I am following on the Instagrams. He does like political content and like, debunks things. And then he started, and he's, like, a growing channel. So he doesn't, he doesn't have a lot of, I don't think he's got sponsors and shit like that. So, I mean, I don't have sponsors. But he obviously got offered a sponsorship deal to get his followers asking, to get his followers to sign a petition in support of heart health. On the surface, you would say, Well, that sounds great. Hello. What came out was so semi semaglutide is, is the drug? Right? Semaglutide study came out saying there is a 20% reduction in major adverse cardiovascular events from taking semaglutide. If we go back to list, thinking about my episode with Tigris Osborne, the from Nafa and we were talking about how Novo Nordisk and PALs were getting real tricky and sneaky with the way that they were going about trying to Get wegovy approved for health versus just weight loss. And so what this this? And so what happens is they have astroturf companies so they look like they look like organizations that are like, funded by the people who are just advocating for health, but actually they're funded by Novo Nordisk and pals, and they are a mouthpiece for pushing their agendas forward. So anyway, so one of these, I can't remember who it was, was getting people to sign a petition to get the get semaglutide we go V approved for health. Because, as we can see, like with the Canadian government, they say there's no health benefits. So for people who are not diabetic, by the way, by the way, everything we're talking about is for people who are not diabetic, people taking it for weight loss, semaglutide, ozempic, other drug names in that family, GLP ones can be wonderful for people with diabetes. Yeah. We are talking about people who don't have diabetes are taking it to lose weight. Okay, so I don't want to scare people who have diabetes and are taking it and they're like, this is good for me. This works great. Perfect for weight loss. The dose is way, way higher, 2.4 2.4 milligrams, and these people don't have diabetes, so Anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway. Novo Nordisk were rubbing their hands together with glee being like, Oh, look at these amazing health benefits. 20% reduction in major adverse cut of it, cardiovascular events. Now, your guess, your guess, have a guess. Have a guess. Have a guess. Is that true? Is it true? Is it true? I'll be tinkling with the numbers a little bit. Maybe. You know, is there a little bit of false advertising with that statement? What's your guess? False advertising? Yes, yes, yes. How did you know? So turns out it was actually, in fact, a 1.5% reduction life changing, amazing, and only in a small group of mostly smaller fat cis men aged 61 with pre existing cardiovascular disease, without diabetes. So in this small group of men, and every listed author has either taken money from was contracted by OR is a direct employee of Novo, the drug manufacturer, plus many of the peer reviewers of the study were in the pockets of Novo and fan, fan fan. Reagan Chastain writes about this. If you were not subscribed to Reagan's sub stack, it's called weight in healthcare, then you should, because you're missing out on some gem, gem, gems. So Reagan wrote about this, and this is where I'm getting the info from. I also downloaded the study, and had a little had a little look, a look with my eyeballs. The post is the semaglutide wegovy cardiovascular outcome trial part one, and then she has a part two. And let me give you a quote from it. So Reagan writes now, let's dispense with the main claim being made, and the one that I'm seeing seeing most commonly repeated in the press, quote in part in patients treated with semaglutide. Weight Loss continued over 65 weeks, and was sustained for up to four years. At 208 weeks, semaglutide was associated with a mean reduction in weight of 10% blah, blah, blah, I don't want to read out the blah blah. And we have from from this study that Reagan's talking about, we have a figure, one percentage change in and we're going to get back to the cardiovascular thing in a bit percentage change in mean body weight from baseline through Week 208 for all patients in trial and first on treatment. And okay, so we've got, it's not looking good. It's not looking honestly, I think that they don't think that we're gonna look at, look at things, but most people don't write, you know, you hear a thing. Semaglutide is great for cardiovascular disease, amazing, of course, 20% reduction. You're just gonna, you're just gonna take the world because they're not lying. They're not lying. They're not, you know, being they're not twisting things anyway. So for weight loss, we can see the so what I'm looking at is I'm going to put this in an Instagram post so people can look at this too. Also you can go and google this if you want. Let me pull up the study again, so you can Google the title if you want, but obviously there's a load of fucking dog shit in there from it. So long term weight loss effects of semaglutide in O word without diabetes in the Select trial, hang on, let's pull up the let me just double check that that's the name of the study. So at the beginning of this, this trial for semaglutide, we had 8000 people taking semaglutide, 8800 people taking semaglutide, we had 8800 taking the placebo. And by the end of it, at 221, weeks, what was the dropout rate? What was the dropout rage? Yeah, that was a tight or long term weight loss effects of semaglutide in O word without diabetes in the Select trial, this came out in March, April 2024, okay, let's get rid of that. Okay, so what was I saying? The Trial lost 89.5% of the participants. So we started out with, let's just look at the people taking the drug. 8800 people. At the end we had 157 lols. That's so embarrassing. 157 and they're like, Bitch, this was a fucking success. Yes, and you look at week 65 week 65 that's when people their weight loss stops, and that's around nine pounds, and then it plateaus, goes up,

and then is around 11 ish pounds at Week 221 Imagine, imagine you be taking this fucking thing For for 221 weeks, and you've lost 11 pounds. And here's a bit. Here's the thing, 157 is who we've got left. So 90% of people who dropped out. What if we had the figures of those who've dropped out? What if we weighed them? Because if Imagine you're in a trial. You're like, Fuck, man, I'm gonna lose weight on this thing. And you start losing weight at the beginning. So the first year, you've lost 10 pounds, miracle, quote, unquote, and then you're taking it and you're taking it and you're not losing any more weight, or your weights going up. Oh, my God, what's wrong with me? This is meant to be the miracle drug. I'm doing something wrong. I'm so greedy, I'm a loser. Am I gonna go back to get weighed and feel ashamed and embarrassed? Fuck no. Maybe baby the vessel a bit. But then you're like, why am I doing this? This is really and why am I still injecting myself every fucking week, and when the side effects are so shit, not for everyone, but imagine you're this person has, or if you don't have side effects, and you just don't want to get go back to go and get weighed, it should be like, huh, lost no way, or lost a pound in the last six months, good for you, or put on weight. And so why are we having this 90% dropout rate? And for the placebo, by the way, placebo started out 8800 and 152 so placebo only had five, actually eight. So placebo had pretty much the exact same dropout rate. Here's the thing, here's the thing. This is what your brain is probably saying. Hang on a minute. You say in the study, people are losing like 10 pounds or whatever. But sorry, sorry, sorry. Actually, it's not pounds, it's percentage, 10% 10% 10% 10% so for example, 210% of 200 is 20. Okay, so it can give you an idea of what that might look like on people. I'm gonna say that makes more sense, because we saw that it was 33 pounds that people were losing in two years. So that makes sense. I was gonna say, this isn't, yeah, this is like a low, low, low weight loss. Anyway, anyway, still not fantastic weight loss. You're gonna say, Hang on. We I've seen all over social media, people going, you know, losing loads of weight and becoming really small. The thing happened. The same thing happens with diets. And we know diets have a 95% failure rate, right? The people who are losing weight are the ones that were taking the pictures and showing off their fantastic weight loss, the people who had a terrible time. Do you think that they're going to be like, Hey everybody, here's my week one on, on isemi, he's my week 60. Same, same way. Lol, yeah, they're not going to do it, right? They're not going to do it. They're going to do it. They're going to be showing their before and afters, because they're before and afters are the same. So you see this, you know? This. What the information we're getting is that azem Pick really works, and you're going to see, you know, yeah, but my friend took a Zen pick, and they lost loads of weight, yeah. But what about all of the people in your life who are taking ozempic that have not told you who are not losing weight, and you might have also have friends who know, yeah, they lost a bit of weight, but they felt really sick, or although they lost no weight, or whatever. So the what we're seeing is kind of skewed. What the data is showing us is is not good. So go back. So going back to the cardiovascular thing, quoting from Reagan, the study is literally, I've read that this is a study name five times now published in the nature medical journal. Their abstract begins in the Select cardiovascular outcomes trial. Semaglutide showed a 20% reduction in major adverse cardiovascular events in 17,604 adults with pre existing cardiovascular disease, O word and o word without diabetes. Reagan says, already, the veracity of the claims in this study is pulled into serious question. First of all, 17,604 is the total number of the original participants, of which 8782 were in the placebo group, not the group that experienced the semaglutide treatment effect. You see how these tricky little tricksters do it. Next 20% is the relative risk reduction, which gives information only about the relationship between the two trial groups, the absolute risk reduction, which. Gives information about applicability outside the Trial Group. Group was only 1.5% 8% people in the non treatment group versus 6.5% people in the treatment group experienced one of the major adverse cardiac events the trial tracked. It seems to me that we are either to believe that these authors are unaware of an extremely basic statistics principle that is taught in high school statistics classes, or they are being purposely misleading in their writing. If you or hey, these study authors want to learn more about relative versus absolute risk. I have an explanation on this, but it's actually even more misleading than that. Their claim that this trial was of adults was patently ridiculous. The Trial only accepted people who were 45 and older, and the mean age was 61 which means we can infer that two thirds of the subjects were between 54 and 71 But wait, there's more. 72.3% of the subjects were cisgender men. There was no trans or non binary representation. Of course, that's me saying that. And 83.9% in the semaglutide group, and 84.1 in the placebo group were white. Ah, but wait, there's more. As deborgaard pointed out in figure s5 the hazard ratio. Ratios are not significant for women, black people, Hispanic people, people over 75 and the big one, fatter people. So let's rewrite their opening paragraph to be what's the word? Oh, yeah, accurate in the Select cardiovascular outcomes trial, semaglutide showed a 1.5 reduction in major adverse cardiovascular events in white cis men older than 45 with an average age of 61.6, at the lower end of the O word BMI scale who had pre existing Cardiovascular disease without diabetes. Not so amazing. But hey, 1.5% if you've got a really high risk of cardiovascular disease, then, and you're a white cisgender man who's around 60 years old, who doesn't have diabetes, who's got pre existing cardiovascular disease, you might say 1.5% reduction is worth it. And that's cool. That's cool, that's cool. You might say it's not worth it, because you know you're having to take this drug, inject this drug every week for the rest of your life. And as we saw we had in the previous episodes, 90% of people have adverse outcomes, 10% of them being severe. So you might say, is it worth that 1.5% are there other drugs? They're actually a lot more effective than 1.5% reduction, risk reduction. There's probably drugs that are a lot better than just 1.5% so they're kind of really grasping at straws here. Of of see, it makes people healthy, and it's very easy, that's why. So this really smart guy saw this thing presented. Let's help people with cardiovascular disease by signing this petition to get drugs that help cardiovascular disease approved. Fuck yeah. Of course, that sounds amazing. And then you dig into it a little bit and you're like, Huh, oh, what? And actually, I messaged that guy. There were some people under the comments being like, Dude, this is not what you think it is. And I messaged a guy, and I was like, Hey, by the way, this is what the problems are. You know, people are telling you in the post. And He came back and he came back, and he was like, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And took the post down and told his friend, his friend was doing, they were doing a competition of who could get the most signatures, um, and, yeah, I think I'm not sure if the friend could go down. I think they probably think they did, because I, I don't remember there being an issue. But that was really cool. That was really cool to see this, this intelligent guy that I respect, who was just like, oh, yeah, shit, you know. And that's the thing. Shit happens, right? Sometimes we get it wrong, and that's okay, and we can, you know, we can course correct. So what else is going on in the world of a little zummy, okay, we have new study ties weight loss, drugs. We go via Zen picture, serious gastrointestinal conditions, and so this is what a lot of the side effects people are talking about. So this piece from CBC says issues like pancreatitis, stomach paralysis, higher among patients using GLP one inhibitor,

quotes nearly five in every 1000 users of semaglutide drugs developed pancreatitis, compared to one in every 1000 users of Bupropion and for liraglutide, there was about eight cases of pancreatitis every 1000 users. The study says. A link to the study as well as this article, our cohort included four. 144 liraglutide, 613 semaglutide, and 654 the control group basically from 2006 to 2020, and excluded diabetics. Okay, so now we have, we have people who are able to report on what's it like being on this drug for for years now. So we've got this piece. What's it like to stay on ozempic for years? From NBC, few quotes from here, data from Novo Nordisk, which makes ozempic, suggests that the US providers were writing around 60,000 new weekly prescriptions for the drugs as of April 2023 but far fewer patients have been on the drug for years, given that it's relatively new and can cause side effects and is expensive without insurance coverage. NBC News identified and talked with seven people who have been on ozempic for between one and a half and two years. All generally agreed that the medication was not a fast pass to good health, although ozempic has helped them either shed pounds, lower the blood sugar levels or both. So we don't know if these people are a diabetic, so it would lower blood sugar levels in diabetics, and it would lower by nought point one and non diabetics. This isn't a magic bullet or pill, said Edward Matias 45 it's not the fountain of youth. It takes work and commitment. If people are asking for this med because they want to lose weight and they think they can eat anything at all, they're in for a rude awakening. He Matthias says he's taking it for his diabetes. A lot of these people are. They're saying really shameful, hurtful things about themselves, like, oh, I used to be really lazy and stuff. It's the normal kind of people who've lost weight, like smugness and cruelty to themselves. Of what I used to be a doctor, Dr Eduardo gronvalls, that there's a possibility that drugs might lower bone density or raise the risk of thyroid cancer, which has been detected in animal studies. Are we going to see that pop up with millions and millions of patients on these medications? He asked, but most likely, he said, the benefits probably still outweigh the risk I want like to who to who to who I think back to me 1020, years ago, the benefits would outright that weigh the risk in my brain, 100% I would have given so much to have a smaller body, but now Fuck no, because the benefits are societal. Are the way that people might treat you if you are a quote, good fatty and if you do indeed lose weight, society will be kinder to you, right? And you're going to have access to things that you were denied as someone with a bigger body. But as we know, it's temporary, because you have to take this drug for ever and ever. A quote from that. That piece, according to the Canadian Journal of Health Technologies, treatment with wegovy is expected to cost approximately 4726 Canadian dollars per patient per year. Let me tell you what that is in us, because unless you were us, four, seven, I think it's probably about three, 500 700 C, A, d2, USD, I guess 3500 3400, 3400 a year. You can buy a car with that. So to me, I'm like, fuck no. To others, fuck yes, right? And as well, if you have other marginalized identities, if you're a racialized person, if you're disabled, if you are trying to access surgery, ozempic wegovy may be worth the risk, right? So No Shame on people who are taking these drugs to survive, or even if you're not trying to survive and you just want to be thin, living in a world that is anti fat is really fucking hard, right? So for me, I'm just like, No, no, it's a doctor. From a piece from Global News says that most people are going to stay on these drugs for as long as they can afford them. Whoa. So that would be you paying $391 a month, Canadian dollars a month. And listen, I'm paying probably $300 a month for all of my medications that I have now in Canada because I don't have an Yeah, I am self employed, and that's with Canada paying some money towards it, right? Because we've kind of got a kind of color paid healthcare thing, but some, in some ways, we don't in drug, prescription things. Yeah? So imagine then you just stand $391 a month. That's I don't know about you, but I couldn't afford to do that. Plus, if I, you know, like 600 like $700 on medications a month, I couldn't do it. If, 20 years ago, I was presented with this, pay $400 a month and you'll become thin. I, you know what I'd say? My brain would say, Yeah, do it. Because you're only going to need to take it for like, a year, then you within forever, and I'd have this fairy tale of, okay, well, I'm just going to bite the bullet and go into debt to take this drug because then I'm going to get all of my dreams and hopes and all of that type of stuff, and then a year would come around and I'd be like, Fuck, I'm not losing any more weight. And, like, Shit, I can't afford to keep taking it and it would you just go tits up, right? That's what I know. I would my brain would be saying, as we know we've got reporting on people asking this one piece from Medical News Today, why weight loss, drugs stop working, and how to break past the ozempic Plateau. There is no way to get past the ezemic Plateau anyway, so highlights from this, drugs like azempic eventually reach a weight loss plateau, beyond which further weight loss slops or slows or stops like any other Healthy Weight Loss Method, healthy weight loss methods like Stop it, oh, my Goodness, the body eventually settles at an appropriate weight, which may or may not be may not correspond with that person's weight loss goals. GLP, one medications require a lifelong commitment if one hopes to avoid regaining lost weight, which can be expected when one stops taking them. Basically. So this Dr mir Ali says the studies I've seen say, say that patients tend to plateau with semaglutide at 60 weeks, so it's over a year, which is pretty good. How's that? Pretty good? What honestly, the cognitive dissonance here? So it's like how to get over the plateau diet. Hang on. They're already dieting like, that's the whole thing. Why we go V? People are like, we go V is great, because dieting doesn't work like, because o word is a chronic, lifelong disease condition, which is bullshit. So hang on. What? Okay, so this Endocrinologist, Dr Jason Ng, explains in mechanics, weight loss plateau happens when your body's energy burns. Energy burn equals energy being added through food. Initially with weight loss, when you significantly decrease energy intake, the body will get energy needs through other sources, such as glyco glycogen. This triggers weight loss over time. As you lose weight, your metabolism will slow down to compensate the point at which you your metabolism. Metabolism is equal to how much energy you intake through food. Is when the plateau hits. How does he know this? This is not what the information we have. This is just describing a diet. You know, for a traditional diet, we don't have that. The thing is, we don't have a lot of information about this drug and Okay, so one of the questions is, Will I need a stronger dose of semaglutide? Once you reach a maximum dose, which is 2.4 milligrams, you can't go any further than that, dietary changes and more powerful medications. So they're talking about taking extra more GLP ones or modified exercise programs do not get off. Get one off their plateau. They may have reached the limit of such drugs effectiveness. It's so, it's so it's so interesting. It's, you know, people are like, getting swept up in that I can lose weight, I can lose weight. And, you know, there's a solution, there's a solution. And it's like the sadness of Oh, but it's not what we thought. And then they go back to have you considered a diet. Well, you're not working out enough. It goes back to that saying you are doing it wrong, not the drug is shit. This piece from the New York Times, by the way, if you ever want to get past a paywall, go to archive.ph, put in the link, and then it's like a web page archiving tool that you know. So whenever not everything's on there, but you know, most things, almost everything I've ever put in there, you can find a it from behind the the paywall, and you can also look back in. There's an internet time machine where you can look back at how things might have been before. Anyway, this, this piece from the New York Times. You've lost weight taking obesity drugs. What happens if you stop? Sorry, I said the O word. Then

many patients are eager to discontinue. We gave you a Zep Zepp bound, which is another GLP one when their weight loss plateaus, but doctors say it's difficult to go go cold turkey. Susanna Parks was delighted when she lost x pounds on Eli Lilly's o drug Zepp bound. But now that she's had her goal weight she questions, can she stop taking the drug? And if she does, how can she maintain her weight loss. I can't stop cold turkey, or I'll gain it back. That is clear. Said, Ms Park 60 of Bend, Oregon, do I go to a lower dosage? Do I take it every two weeks instead of weekly? How do I maintain these questions are becoming coming, becoming common. O medicine specialists say, as. More and more people lose weight with O drugs. Some struggle to pay for the medicine, have difficulty finding it to purchase, or just don't want to stay on the drug longer than they believe they need to. When doctors are confronted with these queries, here is what they advise, what they say they can't doctor this doctor, this O doctor says, on average, everyone's weight rapidly returned when stopping the drug. And he said other medical conditions like elevated blood sugar and lipid levels return to their previous levels after improving when you stop taking the drug. Hearing that Dr Cummins said, some patients want to take a chance that they will not need the drugs once they lose enough weight, which is, you know what I know my brain would be thinking. He says, Some tell him, I will be the one. I just need some help to get the weight off. Yes, yes, and that's what I thought about diets, too, yeah, but everyone else is lazy and greedy. I'm gonna work really hard, and I'm gonna be the successful one, because I really want it. I'm in so much pain from being fat in this society, I will do anything. And then that didn't happen, because my body was like, shut up, shut up. Give me some fucking food. So far, though, Dr Cummins has not seen patients who have succeeded well, well, will lowering my dose help me keep the weight off? The doctors say they have no data to guard their answer to that question, it's not been studied in a systemic fashion. Says Alison Schneider, a spokeswoman for Novo Nordisk, there is no magic. Bullock, says Dr Mitchell a Lazar, does this mean I have to take wegovy forever? Most patients want to lose as much as they can, but don't want to be stuck on the medicine for the rest of their lives. Dr cummin said, the most Cummins said the most common question is, how long do I take it? The proper answer is probably forever. He said, some patients tell Dr Cummins it sounds like he's giving them a life sentence, and others simply do not believe him. In a study of electronic health records by truvita, a healthcare data company, more than half, a half of patients without diabetes stopped taking drugs within a year, but about third who stopped restarted. I remember when I was on Weight Watchers, and I had lost weight to become a straight sized person, and I was one of the dickheads that would weigh people and be like, he's so lazy and greedy in my head, if they hadn't lost weight. So I was really entrenched in Weight Watchers, and I just remember being like, is this it Do I have to do this forever? Like I can do this temporarily. I can starve myself temporarily, but I cannot go on. It's not physically possible, like, and it was so disappointing, like, like, I've been sold this lie of, it's okay, it's just, just lose away. Just lose away. And, you know, then, but it wasn't. It was this prison, and it was so devastating that I'd worked so hard to starve myself so long, counting all these fucking points and, oh, exhausting. There was no end to it. It's like running a marathon forever. You could, probably won't run one marathon two, you know, barely, you'd probably be close to death. But then imagine it's like, no, you just have to keep going forever. Maybe some people can tolerate that, right? So people can afford it. But we don't know, we don't know what, what's going to happen. We haven't got the data of what if people are on this for life. We don't have that data yet, right? And, of course, in this time, we've had lots of horror stories come out. I mean, we've had lots of notes of people dying. However, these are people who are taking the drugs and die, right? So in as of April 2024 for 2024 there was 222 deaths in 2024 in 2023 there was 89 deaths 2022 42 and it goes down with less usage, obviously, one. We don't actually know that azempic made those people die. And two of the hundreds of 1000s of people taking it, if there's 222 deaths, even if we can absolutely 100% say they are all caused byzempic, that is not necessarily a gargantuan amount, it's still absolutely concerning. Like I, you know, I wouldn't be want to be taking a drug that can cause death, but we don't have that data, but we have lots of like when I'm googling this, like azem Pick stories, a lot of law firms come up, of law of law firms starting suits against Novo Nordisk and friends. And people having these, all these adverse outcomes. So this is still a developing thing, right? So I'm looking at this lawsuit, legal news from july 20, July 2024, and talking about, there's lots of issues with lots you know, it's hard to say yet, is that gallbladder lawsuits, stomach paralysis lawsuits and low vision claims, also, they're not necessarily differentiating between people who are taking it for diabetes or who people are taking it for weight loss. We know there's lots of of side effects. The prediction was that death was going to be a side effect. But I think it's too early to say we don't have that. You know that data is going to come in the following years of the reality of it, but you know, I'm not going to say that. Yeah, listen, we've had hundreds of deaths from mozem pick because we don't have that concrete information. However, we have, like, I watched the documentary, like, for example, this Australian woman was wanted to slim down for her daughter's wedding, and then she died. She got gastro paralysis and and died. And her family like, it's one, we know it's ozempic because she was absolutely fine beforehand, and they really deeply feel and then, so the cause of death was gastro, stomach paralysis, right? But was that stomach paralysis caused by ozempic,

probably? But is it also another case of, you know, how they say that, you know, X amount of fat people died a year, and it's like fat people happen to die, or fat people happen to die and they had diabetes. Well, okay, so they died from fatness, right? So we don't want to be conflating the figures like that and saying, Okay, well, hundreds of people died from Zen pick. Well, we'll take a break from that and see, you know, come back to that, and maybe in a couple of years, we'll come back to that and and see what we've got you mean, if we have a lawsuit of hundreds of 1000s of people coming together, then I think that would be more significant. Okay, so this one article from Rolling Stone says she shared her a Zen pick horror story Tiktok users tried to silence her. Kimberly Carew started experiencing a rare but serious side effect of the medication, but people didn't want to hear about it. A mental health professional and a single mum, Kimberly Carew knows how to ask for help. So when she told her endocrinologist that she was experiencing some pretty painful side effects after starting an Olympic prescription, she was surprised when none of her doctors had any idea of what was causing her pain. Even worse, saying continued her to they encouraged her to continue the drug. It was horrific. It was a horrible experience that no one, none of my doctors, seemed to understand or really believe. It was a shock for them, like no, this is supposed to be a miracle drug. What are you talking about? During her time on ozempic and injectable blah, blah, blah, Carew was unable to keep her food all watered down. She had uncontrollable muscle spasms and pre existing joint and back pain. Fed up because of frequent vomiting, she was hospitalized twice for dehydration, developed pneumonia, and was shown showing extensive signs of malnutrition. When her doctors finally ran some tests, her stomach wasn't just hurting, it was paralyzed. Karu was diagnosed with gastroparesis, a condition where your stomach muscles, which usually aid with digestion, slow to imperceptible levels, which is what semaglutide does, right? That's the mechanism, although we don't know that much about it, stops food moving through your body. This keeps food that should be leaving your body on a normal ribbon, stuck inside your gut, and can cause long, lasting and violent bouts of nausea, bloating, vomiting, pain and even malnutrition. While it may be rare, gastroparesis isn't curable, can only be managed. So when Karoo realized her journey had just begun, she started a small series on Tiktok, documenting a process of recovering with the goal of raising awareness and finding community around an extremely rare side effect. But when she posted her first video on the topic, she went from trying to convince her doctors to trying to convince an entire app. The video was viewed over 600,000 times in a wave of pro ozempic user accused over accused her of being dramatic, lying about her diagnosis, spreading misinformation and trying to give them give the medication a bad name. She wanted to warm them and they wanted her to shut up. I mean, when you're on this thing, that's going to give you all these wonderful things in return, you don't want to hear you want to hear that. If someone tell me that, you know, oh, you could get there's a chance that you could have this side effect. I'm like, so I'm going to be kind of, I'm gonna come thin bitch, you know, who cares is what I would, my brain would say at the time. We have something from global news. A lot of these things are Canadian, right? Because I'm in Canada talking about this woman says the good, the bad and the ugly of being on ozempic. And she's like, I. Is she a therapist or something? It's really sad. It's really sad. Basically, she says, The good is that I have a smaller body and people treat me nicer. The bad is it's fucking horrible. And they show a picture of her, and I'm like, for fucks, like, How many times have I seen pictures of people who were on the Zen pick and they're like, Oh my God, my life is out of control. I was so fat I can fucking do anything. And then you see a picture of them, and they're a small, fat person. You're like, What the fuck? What? Why lying? Well, I know they're lying. They're probably they're blaming their body size for things that are related to health and fitness or disability or whatever. Anyway. So she says that that the the there were major downsides, but the downsides are worth it. So, so she says that she's done everything to lose weight. She says she's done, I've done every single diet on the face of the planet. Failed at every single one of them. You didn't fail. They failed. You, um, they'd all work for a certain period of time, and then they wouldn't, kind of like a zambou. Then she said that she went under bariatric surgery, I feel so much for this person. I just want to like, No, you're so close. You're so close because they're talking about weight bias and stuff and how it's not it's not nice to treat fat people badly. But her way of escaping weight bias as a small fat person was to temporarily lose weight. So anyway, so she underwent bariatric surgery, the removal of the large part of the stomach to reduce hunger signals and induce weight loss. She lost weight and ran half a marathon to mark the occasion. She calls it one of the best decisions of her life. But in the years that followed, her weight eventually started creeping back on, no matter what she did to try and stop it. And so in 2019 her o word specialist suggested ozempic. So she's lost weight, and so she says it's great because the world treats you well. It's very, very different. Men want to date her. Oh no, she's not a therapist. She says she's worked with a therapist. I wonder if that therapist is fat, positive, probably not. And then she says, she says she's an advocate for health any size, but zempix marketing messages have obviously penetrated her brain, because there's a lot of spouting that, you know, O word is a disease, a lifelong condition, by the way, that sounds on service level, that sounds Yes, that sounds right, right. Thing is, I have, I've done a whole episode on this, why a word is not a disease. The only thing that all fat people have in common is that they have fat on their body. That's the crux of it, right? So, how are you going to treat that disease like? What are the what are the poor outcomes of that disease? Well, one person, you might say, well, you know, you know, fat people have diabetes, not, not all of them. And then people get diabetes. Well, fat people die earlier. Do they? We have contradicting evidence around that, like so how about instead of treating the body size, we treat the actual conditions, not the body size, because there doesn't seem to be a lot of things are clearly, demonstrably connected, that we can say all fat people have these outcomes anyway, also something that's designated a disease, then insurance companies will cover it. So why do we think that Novo is encouraging this rhetoric of fatness being a disease? Because it will make the money anyway. So, you know, a lot of people are half there. They're saying, hey, Health at Every Size is a good thing. She, I mean, she's talking about Health at Every Size, but then she's, I'm the zenfic. Make it make sense. If you want to be healthy, you can be healthy. We can walk maybe what work towards health at your current size? Who knows? Health is a more forced concept? You might not ever be healthy. Whole episodes on health and morality and all that type of stuff, healthism and ableism. Anyway. So it's kind of like you're almost there, you're almost there, but you just No, no. Anyway, so this person says, you know, it's worth it for them, because people treat them better, which is so fucking sad, and because it's true, right? It's true. There's no, there's no lie in that. There's no, you know, it's true. And so if people are taking doing anything to become smaller, I get it. Shit, I get it, but for me, that feels like a lot. It feels at times, it feels, you know, fickle, and like giving the bully your lunch money just to get them to go away, it is harder, and you have to have a lot of privilege to be able to say, I'm not giving you my lunch money, because there's consequences to that, and so sometimes you might just be like, Okay, I'm going to give you my money and deal with a smile on my face. That might be the option for some people. For me, I have the privilege in my identity of being a white person, of being university educated, of being able to access therapy. And having certain supports and La, la, la, my body side, blah, blah, blah, as a medium fat person versus as very a large fat person or a super sized fat person, etc, etc. So that's my personal experience, right? It's not for everyone. Okay? So let's talk about some trashy things. What is going on on the tick tocks and stuff? Because, you know, we're gonna put a little bit of trashy stuff in there. And, you know, I'm just embracing, I'm I'm embracing this side of, you know what? There's sometimes I do like a little bit of trashy things, like nighty day fiance, I know, what are the trashy things that you like anyway. I like, do you know Ira like, night, day fiance, because doesn't fuck with my my body. The way that I view my body, because we have with not everyone on there is like, this model type. Everyone is different, right? There are some people who are model types, whatever. I notice my brain is influenced when I'm watching things like, what's that silly show where people get married really quickly. Love is blind. They're all, like, incredibly attractive, according to society, and so that might like chips away at my brain, and my brain is

like, you should maybe get this, and you should become young again. And you know, but with Night Day fiance, Night Day fiance, there's lots of different variety of people, so it doesn't really do that to me, and so I can enjoy it in it in peace. So what are people saying on the internet? People are saying, if you take a Zen pick you're going to get a Zen pick face. Now, what is a Zen pick face? It is losing volume in your face. And people are saying that this looks unattractive. It was coined by a dermatologist, obviously, who wants to then, well, you've become Finn now, but now you're not pretty. You have azempic face. You're fucking ugly. So you need to get me get some fucking fillers and have some surgery, bitch, because you can't ever you can't win, right? The house always win with beauty ideals. A house always wins. You get thin, but you've got a Zen pick face, but you've got loose skin, but you're getting older, but you're this, but you're that, but you blah, blah, blah, it's never ending. You're never gonna arrive, right? You're never gonna get to the epitome of beauty, because then they'll say, actually, big lips are out. Now, apparently big lips are out now, is what I found out. And so you can't ever keep up, because the people with with wealth are able to access these, these trends, and by the time poor people are starting to access them, they become untrendy again. So you know what? I just me, I'm just not in interested in gambling with this stuff. I know the house always wins. You know, I like, I went to Vegas and I did $20 on something, and I got $20 back. And I said, okay, cool. Thanks, done. You know, just because I thought it was a bit of fun and I could afford to lose $20 and so that's the way I engage with beauty, is if I want to do something for a bit of fun and it feels good to me, I know I'm ever going to get attain this beauty ideal, because it's impossible, but it might feel fun, and that's fine. You know, it's no big deal if I lose $20 or whatever. But it's when we're investing everything in our lives to get to this place that is not possible, and we don't know that the house wins. We're thinking we're gonna get there. We don't anyway, so, so people are now dragging other people online, being like, Oh, look how ugly are. They have an ozempic face. So that's fucked up now as well. Side face is also side note. This is also think called pillow face, which is just, you know, an ex, another example of how you can never keep up, and how these trends, and maybe, you know, not so great, you know, fillers, how the trend has been recently, in the last, I don't know, five years, to have very large lips and filler and to get cheek bones, or whatever it is, that what They had thought about filler originally, is that filler is absorbed into your body, and so you get a top up and a top up and a top up every whatever six months, is what they they had the dermatologists, or whoever the surgeons recommended. It turns out that it doesn't your body doesn't clear it, that it's just kind of stacking filler on filler, and then it dissipates into your face. It spreads around your face, and it makes your face into like has volume in your face. And so people are getting dragged for that now, and they're having their fillers dissolved, then they're having their fillers dissolved, and then it leaves them with lips that are kind of deflated looking. So they can never, ever you get fillers. Oh, finally, I'm good looking. I have fillers and, oh no. Now my face, now that it's not working in the same way it did, oh no. I'm back to zero. Now I have to get dissolved the fillers, because now the trend is thin lips and oh no, no. My lips don't do so I want to have to get a surgery to like, it's just never ending, really, you know what? With this stuff, with this stuff, I always. Just think when there's a trend and I'm like, Ah, you know, because sometimes I have looked at my lips and been like, maybe they should be bigger, and then I'm like, shut up, stop it, in the most in the most loving kind way to myself of Yeah, I know it feels like you should have bigger lips, but investing in in doing something like that doesn't align with your values, and also it might make you feel temporarily good, as the trend of big lips is in because that, you know, but you thinking, well, the trend of big lips is always going to be it, because it feels like that. That's what beauty is. But then it shifts. It shifts right? You remember, in the when we were growing, I don't know if how old we were, but what, you know, the really thin eyebrows, and then everyone would pluck their eyebrows, and they'd be really thin. And now, you know, and then it got bigger eyebrows, and people with thin eyebrows were like, oh my god, what am I going to do? And so they have to get tattoos on their faces and to get the eyebrows filled in, or whatever. And I just think, I'm just going to take a step back from all of that shit, because it feels exhausting. It feels you can't keep up. You can't you cannot keep up. That's what is designed. You can't keep up. So and also, like if that, if you've got lip fillers and whatever, if that feels good for you. Wonderful. I'm really pleased that people can access things gender affirming, things like having fillers or whatever it is people might do to access happiness in their lives, but I see it as a way that might bring me temporary happiness, maybe, but long term, it won't. So we have lots of celebrities on azem Pig, obviously, we have Oprah, who did a whole fucking show about it. That was absolutely dog shit I made a post about like Oprah's history of losing weight, and it's really fucking sad, you know, from her bringing out that wagon full of fat, being like, I finally did it and and then throughout the years, she puts on weight, obviously, because no fault of her arm, because she's a human. And think of all of the tools that Oprah has access to so she'll lose weight, put it back on. Lose weight, put it back on. And every time she loses weight, she's like, This is it. And so in the post I have, it's like all of the new, best, new things that was being touted at the time and how that was it. And his npic is the same. So Whoopi Goldberg, people really talk unkindly about themselves after they've lost weight, right? Like the worst fat people are the fat people, the worst thing people are the people that used to be fat people, because they really are horrible about themselves and fat people. Tracy Morgan, the comedian, people say you've been working on your body and your health. No, that's a Zen pick. That's how this weight got lost. Sharon Osborne, and then what did Kelly Osborne, Sharon's daughter say something like, she said something really fucking rude. Like, are you too poor to afford a Zen pick? Let me see what she said. She says something that Kelly Osborne is a Zen pick poor. If it was, was it a Zen pick that she said, Oh yeah, people hate it because they want to do it. She said, critics are just mad that they couldn't afford his epic. And she so she said, and the people who hate on it are the most people who the people who hate on it the most are the people who are secretly doing it or pissed off they can't afford it. Oh, dear. Kelly Osborne, she said some really things in her time, all of these celebrities that are taking, taking it are, are straight sized. There's one, like, one or two who are like, there are so slightly softer. Oh, Lord. Billie Jean King the tennis star. She's 80 years old. She said she started taking his epic because she'd hope her manage her eating disorder. No. She says, I'm a binge eater. Oh. Billie Jean King, no, because this whole thing like, oh, it stops the food. Noise, it stops the food. Noise, food. Noise, being a pre occupation with eating, yeah, no. What helps stop the food? Noise, letting yourself have access to food. That's all I ever used to think of. Think about. Was food, food, food. As soon as I woke up, food. What am I allowed to eat? Because I was fucking starving, maybe not physically, but mentally, I was not allowing myself what I was as soon as I started allowing myself what I wanted, intuitive eating. I am just so much. I'm just surprise, surprise, I don't have any food. Noise apart from, oh, it's lunch. I'm hungry, like, right now. I'm hungry because it's past lunch time. Okay, so ezempic and Tiktok, there's actually been a freaking article science from Science Direct, they studied ezempic and Tiktok. What they found was so they looked at the first 100 videos that they came across, 70 million times, viewed 70 million times, which highlights the potential of Tiktok for reaching large numbers of people with information about weight loss and increasing the popularity of medications such as ozempic. It is noteworthy that our our sample of azemk Tiktok videos were largely uploaded by. Professionals, which made raise a variety of concerns. And most of the videos that they found were people saying, I'm on, I'm on pick and and like, kind of promoting ozempic. But however, uh, this article from Rolling Stone says that that tick tock has now clamped down on ozempic stuff. So from this article, quote, the company's website states it wants the app to be a place that encourages self esteem and does not promote negative social comparisons. When reached for a comment by Rolling Stone, a Tiktok spokesperson referred back to the new guidelines, saying that policies were mainly expanded to prevent the sale of weight loss or performance enhancing drugs on the site, and they still allow for people to share their weight loss journeys, as long as they aren't extreme dangerous or relating to use of GLP, one medications for weight loss, good for you, Tiktok, but we should get rid of all of the weight loss content. That would be good. Now you may have heard it. There was a shortage, and apparently there are still shortages predicted for the rest of 2024

so that's fun for the people who are taking azemic for diabetes that they would have really adverse effects from not having because people are taking it for weight loss. I know a lot of people I've seen online who have diabetes are like, Fuck you and very mad about the people taking it for weight loss because they can't access their medicine, which is absolutely understandable. So, yeah, that's the update on ozempic. So basically, you know, we're using the word ozempic. Actually it's we go V or semaglutide is the actual medication. Basically, what we found is that in the years since it's been out that people are having adverse outcomes as expected, lawsuits are being started for for deaths, that Novo Nordisk are claiming that there's a great benefit for cardiovascular events, reduction in major cardiovascular events, but in fact, it was a 1.5% not a 20% reduction. Other studies are showing that we have other adverse outcomes, like gastroparesis, that we have a lot of, oh, we have a lot of celebs and other people on social media showing the results of azem pick. But the reality is, the studies show that people are losing about 10% of their body weight up to the first year, and then it plateaus, and weight loss would be immediately returned by not necessarily immediately, but weight loss return if you stop taking it, you have to take it forever. 90% of people have adverse effects. 10% of them are severe costs. About 400 Canadian a month to take the drug reports of people dying, but we don't know if that's directly connected, but I'm sure we'll find out in the future, and we still have a shortage in a number of places. So yeah, kind of what we expected, wasn't it? Kind of what we expected with this type of thing. It takes time to really know the full picture of what's going on. And I just want you to know, as someone who's been doing this work for had this business for like 11 years now, there's so often that these things come along, right and, and whatever it is something you know, whatever it is, like a weight loss thing, or or or a trend, a beauty trend or whatever, I just say to myself, I'm just gonna give it some time. Gonna give it some time, because it can, you know, it can be really hard for people. I people have said to me, Listen, I see people everywhere are taking it. Everyone's taking it, and everyone's becoming thin. And that's what it can feel like, you know? And why am I? I'm missing out. I'm missing out. I could be thin like them, and I'm going to be the only one fat one left. And that's that really feels very, very true. But we're not seeing everything in the background. We're not seeing necessarily. We can't see into the future, so we don't know what's going to happen. And you know, I would love to go back to people who were, you know, because some people were commenting on my post being like, I'm taking his empathic amazing and go back to them being like, are you still taking it? Is it still amazing? I wonder. I wonder, like with dieting, if I know someone is on a diet, what I think is, you know, I'm not jealous, I'm not angry at them. I just think I really am sending them love and hoping they don't feel so deeply ashamed when the weight comes back off, because we know that that is very likely to happen. And so it's almost I feel like I'm just seeing into the future of all of this hard work that you know, everything. They've done to get to that point, and how upset they're going to feel with themselves, how much they're going to shame themselves, how much disappointment they're going to feel. And I just I feel compassion for them. And so when you're feeling this like, oh my god, everyone's on a Zen pit, I want you to try and extend compassion for yourself for that feeling, because that's totally normal. I mean, if you could see all of these people accessing privilege and seemingly accessing joy and maybe accessing health and accessing community from taking this drug, fuck. Why would you not want to take it? But what if you could see their future and see them being like, I can't afford to take this drug anymore, and I'm going to put back on all the weight, or I can't tolerate taking this drug anymore because it makes me feel really shit and then putting back on all the weight, or taking the drug and feeling really ashamed. But like that, they can't continue to lose weight because they've lost, you know, 10% of their body weight. And if they're a fat person, 10% is probably not going to make them a thin person, right? It's not going to make them a thin person. So, yeah, try and keep that in mind. And also, if you like, No, I just, I'm going to do it. I need to access, I need to access I I've been denied gender confirmation, affirmation surgery, because I need to lose weight. So I'm going to take a Zen pick, go for it. I need to have a break from experiencing this awful anti fat bias in this society, and I want to get a partner, and I want to be loved, and I know I won't be able to do that at this weight, or I feel I can't do this at this weight, and so I'm going to do it. Do it. You know, if that's what's what feels good for you, and that, what's, that's what, what that what that's what works for you. And also, I want you to be prepared for giving yourself some loving kindness and compassion at the other side of it. And a lot of people are, are, you know, have to gage in engaging transaction or weight loss in order to access care. And they already know all this, right? And they already know it's going to be shit, and they already know that it's, it's a temporary state in order to access care, but they're doing it anyway, and that's really not that's, it's so fucked up that we have to do that. So yeah, anyway, sending love to everyone. Hope you're I just hope you're okay. Listen, life is hard, right? So life is hard, and fucking Novo Nordisk can suck my fucking dangly tits. I hate them. But actually, you know, if you're a diabetic and they're giving you good drugs, and I see like things are not black and white white, things are not black and white, right? But also not even others have had some scandals. Go back to the other episodes and you're like, so they're a bit of a scandalous Well, I mean, drug manufacturers, what can you what can you expect? All right? Well, hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you like the show and you want to support me, there's two ways you can do that. One, you can leave a review. You know what? I've not asked anyone to leave a review in ages, and no one's left a review because I didn't asked it. I'm just like, oh, people might leave reviews if I don't ask them. No, no, no, no, that's not it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. So if you don't have money, or you have money, you don't want to give it to me, that's fine. If you can leave a review, that would be lovely. Or you don't have to you. I'm not the boss of you. You do you. You can just listen to it and then be like, see a Layla loser. If you do want to become a part of my ko fi, which is like Patreon, you can do that for five doll hairs a month, and you'll get the size diversity Resource Guide, which is on mortime. Or you can do up to $20 why not? You've got the money hanging around. Why not again? You don't have to. I love you either way. All right. Well, thanks for hanging out and have a wonderful day. Remember you're worthy. You always were. You always will be. Stay fierce, fatty. Goodbye. You.

Episode 191 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Michael Pollan's Background and Critique 4:41

• Determinants of Health 26:50

• Organic Food Misconceptions 35:32

• Reconciling Social Determinants and Personal Health 40:14

• Critique of Michael Pollan's Advice 48:04

• The Role of Social Determinants in Health 56:27

• The Impact of Social Determinants on Health 56:41

• The Importance of Critical Thinking in Health Advice 56:56

• The Role of Systemic Changes in Health 1:03:10

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 0:00

You're listening to The Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 191, Michael Pollan, organic food and determinants of health. Let's do it.

You. Hello. Welcome to the face value podcast. So excited to see you here. So excited to see you. I don't see you. I don't even hear you. You're hearing me. I'm excited you're here. Thanks for being here and tuning in. My name is Vinny. If you've not listened to the podcast before, my pronouns are they them. And today we're answering a listener question. I was like, oh so good. I need to put this into a podcast. And we're talking about a food journalist, or journalist in general, called Michael Pollan. If you've not heard of him, Don't worry, I'll give you the Goss. And also talking about organic food and determinants of health, my voice sounds very deep and sexy at the moment. I said that to my friend, and he was like, No, you just sound sick. I just got off a week of feeling sick. So, yeah, it's not covid, thankfully, by the way, did you know if you test for covid on day one of symptoms, there's something like a 75% chance you'll get a false negative, and then day two, it's slightly lower, but you have to test multiple times during your symptoms, and you might not even get the correct positive result. So anyway, I tested three times throughout my symptoms, and it's not covid, but still I'm sick. Anyway, bloody blue, blue, blue. If you like the show and you want to support it, then you can go to Kofi forward slash fierce fatty be in the show notes. If you want to buy me a coffee or whatever, you don't have to. I'm not the boss of you. Let's listen to this. This question from Brittany. Brittany asks, I have a question that I'd love your thoughts on, or maybe it could be a good podcast topic. Yes, it is. Brittany, I'm well aware that social determinants of health have a huge impact on our health and bodies, and that we need major systemic changes so that everyone has the same access to food, health care, less stressful. Lives free, less stressful lives free from discrimination, jobs that allow time to care for ourselves and all the other things that make, quote, being healthy. So very difficult. I'm trying to do my part to help dismantle all those system systemic problems, but very few of them actually apply to me. I'm a white, cis, Apple middle class woman who has access to good healthcare and time in my schedule to do the things that are in my control. I know it isn't as simple as just doing all the right things, but at the same time, I'm still fat, and I have a couple of of the quote, lifestyle diseases that get blamed on the O word. Much of the messaging around social determinants of health comes across as quote, you don't have to blame yourself for being, quote, unhealthy if you don't have access to organic foods, etc. But I do have access to organic foods, etc. How do I reconcile this? This came up after a discussion where someone I know who is thin, white, cis man read Michael Pollan, and the message he took away from the book was, I can see that he's elitist and unrealistic if you aren't in the position he's in, but we are. So doesn't that mean we should do what he says, other than pointing out how that reeks of privilege, and arguing that if he has the extra time and money to buy all organic food and pay for fancy workouts, he could do slightly fewer of those things and funnel money into organizations that are trying to make sure everyone has that opportunity, I didn't know exactly how to counter his argument that if None of the social determinants of health? Are that that are damaging to apply to you you should be healthy. Is he right? Is it possible to be perfect to is it possible to perfect your health if you don't have to battle with so many of the things that most people do have to battle? I recognize that even asking this question points out my privilege too, but I would love to be able to educate the people in my life who don't quite see how lucky they are and how nuanced this topic it is. I love your work, and it has helped me so much in my journey. I would appreciate hearing your perspective on all this, if you have a time, energy, bandwidth, to weigh in. Thanks, Brittany. Well, thank you, Brittany, for such an amazing question. And you know what? When you said, Michael Pollan, my first thought was that other Michael, that's from the UK. What was his name? He died recently in a kind of weird accident in Greece, or something, where he went out walking and then he he died from the heat. Michael, Michael, what was his name? I know Brooke. People are like, his name's this Michael Moseley. That's Michael. Michael Moseley is kind of the was the British answer to Dr Oz, kind of fear mongering, anti fats, diet culture, Doctor Who is not a doctor in nutrition or has any idea about it, and hated fat people. And anyway, so I thought that was it Michael Mosley were talking about, but it's Michael Pollan, who is an American person who, after me looking into him, is not far off from this idea of, you know, he doesn't have that trashy aura of like, you know, this is obviously trashy, bad, bad journalism. Michael Mosley did have that kind of trashy element. Whereas Michael Pollan, it's more difficult to pull out the BS, you know, you doesn't have books like books like lose 50 pounds in three minutes. Michael Pollan is more of a serious journalist, so I can see why it's difficult to pull out the BS. So first off, I just want to look into like, who Michael Pollan is, and just a little bit of a Google Michael Pollan website. And one of the first things on the on his website is a advert for his masterclass. So, you know, the the brand masterclass where, you know, they get celebrities to do a lesson on how to and like Oprah would do a lesson on how to be a like Oprah or whatever, or whatever the person's expertise are. So he has one. And so it's a short advert, and I watched it. The first thing that he says, This is so this is she wrote down word for word, everything you said in this advert. Food companies don't want to satisfy you. They want to addict you. We have to resist that. So first so I went in, and also, I don't really know who this Michael Pollan is. Is he? Is he a diet culture schlepper, or what? As soon as I heard that one sentence, I was like, Oh, my girl, so food companies want to addict you. So first off, he's saying that food addiction is a thing, and food companies want to make their food delicious, right? Obviously, food companies are not like, okay, okay, everyone they're in the board meeting. They're like, All right, so girlies, how do we make our food taste not as good? Let's think about it. Let's think about what flavors can we take out? Okay, no, obviously, food companies want their food to taste good. So anyway, but I there's they're not, I doubt that they're in, you know, their quarterly meetings being like, how many addicts have we got this month? Come on, let's see. What quarter how many more addictions do we have to our food No, so food addiction, I've got a whole episode on it. Food addiction is not real. The reason why we know that food addiction is not real is if you look at the studies that show that we have a reaction in our brain when we have food or sugar, it's the same types of reactions that we'd have if we saw a picture of a puppy or hugged a friend, or, you know, if we're eating things or experience pleasurable things, those centers are going to be lighting up in our brain. The studies they've done were on rats, Non Humans, and if you think about if something is addicting, what happens if you have more access to that? Or will you want what you want? More access to the to the thing, and you feel obsessed. And so it's understandable to think, aha, we're addicted to this thing. But with food, if you increase the access those addiction, sensations and feelings disappear, the more access you are granted to that thing, food, sugar, whatever it is. Whereas with something that is actually addictive, those feelings of addiction, because they are actually addictive, don't go away. They increase, right? You know, it's just like a spiral. So already we're after a bad start here. Mike, we're after a bad start. The next line, he says, this class is not about learning some short term new diet. Now, does this sound familiar to you? How many diets have said we are not a diet, babe. Okay, listen, we're not like those over those nasty fad diets. We're No, we're the real deal. This is a lifestyle change. What's the next line? He says, this is really about a sustainable way of eating, long term lifestyle change. We should have like a bingo of, is this a diet? A bingo card, of all the things that are going to say, this is a lifestyle change, this is not a diet. The other things don't. Work, but we work. We allow you to eat your foods. We don't like shame. He said, all of them next. He says, I have written about agriculture, nutrition, cooking, and this is everything I know about food. Okay, great. He's a journalist, so he's written books about those things. Does that make him a nutritionist? No, no, it doesn't

the best wisdom we have. He says can be reduced to seven words, okay, what are those seven words, eat, food? Oh, okay, yeah. Love it. Not too much. No, mostly plants is this the best wisdom that we have? Michael, I don't think so. Michael, Michael, Michael, the best, but the best wisdom is where this is the best wisdom, real food, eat food, but not too much, and mostly plants. This sounds like innocuous, and by the way, I should have given a trick or one at the beginning. We're going to be talking about this, this food bullshit, right? So this is not feeling good, and you don't want to be exposed to these messages, even though I am going through telling you why they're bullshit. If you don't want to be exposed, don't. Don't listen to the rest of the episode. I'll put a trigger winning one on the show notes. So if it's not feeling good, yeah, don't. Don't listen. Don't listen, don't listen, because this stuff is really harmful, honestly. So eat food. This is so easy to be like. This is reasonable. Obviously, eat food, not too much, mostly. Plus he sounds he's, he's the way, the way he's talking about is, is like, this is revolutionary. Stuff like this has not been said to us for decades and decades and decades, and the reporting that he does, I'll show you in a second, but we don't. It's not supported. It's not it's not support. It's supported by anecdotal evidence, from what I can see so far. So this is the best wisdom we have can be reduced to seven words. It might as well read the best and wisdom we have to help you trigger disordered eating. Eat food, not too much. Eat plants, mostly plants. Now there's nothing wrong with eating plants, as you may know, I was vegetarian for like, seven, eight years, and then I started slowly eating meat. And that happened a few couple of years ago, and still, I'm very don't eat that much meat for ethical reasons, and I'm just not that interested in meat. So I'm not anti being a vegetarian or vegan or whatever. However, we know that a lot of people are using vegetarianism veganism, or that some people will have will say, you should say plant based. I think plant based is more than movement, or maybe vegetarianism is the more the movement anyway, a lot of people do use that as a way of restricting and a way of restricting without, without getting called in for maybe being in an eating disorder or engaging in disordered eating, because there's an ethical component. And absolutely, you can be a vegetarian or vegan and not be disordered eater, in eater or have an eating disorder, absolutely, and also you can be vegetarian or vegan and also have an eating disorder, and sometimes it might be a good way to hide disordered eating under the ethics. So it's kind of a complicated story. A lot of people say, Well, if you're vegetarian or vegan, 100% you have an eating disorder. I don't believe that at all. Obviously, as someone who was vegetarian for many years, and also probably did feel a huge sense of superiority, not, probably did. It did feel a huge sense of superiority, of like, I'm a vegetarian, so I'm healthy, and that's, you know, that's bullshit. That's healthism. And is it true? No, because I have different health conditions, which hasn't changed because I do or do not eat meat. But saying that too, eating plants and vegetables is not a bad thing, unless you're becoming obsessed with it, right? Unless it's becoming a disordered eating eating disorder. So anyway, the words on the screen say, learn to eat wisely so, and then he's like, join the masterclass. Blah, blah, blah, bye. Thanks, babes. So all of this seems very reasonable, doesn't it, doesn't it, doesn't it. This is, this is why we have to be very, very discerning with listening to these types of messages. Because it's, it's easy to be like, Okay, Mr. Michael, you sounding like? This sounds all reasonable. Yeah. I, you know. I want to get behind, supporting. I. Uh, you know, eating, I don't know well, or whatever it is that's drawing you to him. But then we kind of scratch the surface a little bit, and it's for me, red flag Central. So you can go to the masterclass thing, and you can read this transcripts from the or you can probably watch the videos too. But I was looking at the transcripts just for a little lucky look to see what came up. And so the first one from lesson two. The lesson two is, rethink your relationship with food. And I was like, oh, okay, oh, let's check this out. So basically, let me read this first. The intro. The Western diet is a term that nutritionists used to describe basically the way that we eat. And when I say we, I mean people in America, but also now, increasingly, people all over the world. It's characterized by lots of sugar. This is just so fucking triggering sugar, refined flours, oil, cooking oil, vegetable oil, lots of meat and very little whole grain, very little fruits and vegetables. Is it? Is it? Is it? Is it? What's the evidence we have here? What's What's no links to studies and Okay, say if every single American eats lots of sugar, lots of flour, lots of oil, whatever does is that, what does that mean? What does that mean? And well, he tells us, and that way of eating is closely associated with no coincidence, the Western diseases, a term also coined by nutritionists. What are the Western diseases? Okay, put your bets. Bets, bets, bets, bets. What are the Western diseases that Michael is talking about? Place your bets. Okay, have you placed your bet? These are o word, type two diabetes, oh, several types of cancer that are linked to diet and cardiovascular disease, which includes stroke for fuck sake. What a load of bullshit. What a load of bullshit. Well, first off, oh, word isn't a disease. Type Two Diabetes is almost exclusive, exclusively a genetic condition. People who happen to be racialized are higher risk of of getting Type Two Diabetes, not because of their diet or what they do is genetic. You can't eat your way into getting cancer, so it's just such a load of dog shit. And this is not new stuff. This is the same old diet culture bullshit that we've been hearing for decades, being repackaged into slightly less egregiously harmful wording on the outside, but then going straight in, Americans are fat, and it's because we eat we, as in him, are saying that Americans are eating too much sugar or whatever it is, meat or whatever. Okay, Michael, so the next, the next module that I looked at was, I was like, Okay, well, let's see what he says about not too much. Okay, so one of the modules is called Eat and not too much, not too much. So he starts off with, I want to say that eating disorders of all kind are a serious concern, and anyone dealing with them should seek medical support. But here I want to focus on overeating. You know what? It's kind of like, you know the smile with the with the with the dagger to the side, you know, like I'm your friend. But listen up here, you fat losers, you know? O, word is a very big public concern today in many countries, and then he goes just more bullshit. Bullshit increases your risk for type two diabetes, for covid, for a host of chronic diseases. Okay, so we've done many episodes about these types of things. We even did one for covid. So for covid, what? What happened? What turned out? Okay, so it increases your risk for covid, which is absolute bullshit. What he's trying to say is it increases risk of adverse outcomes for covid, is what he's trying to say, which is also coated in a lot of bullshit. So with covid, if you want to go to Hayes health, sheets, H, A, E, S, if any of these things are triggering you and you want to learn, like the DL on on the real deal behind what's going on with diseases or conditions associated with fatness, and again, associated is huge work. Word. We do not have the evidence to show that having more adipose tissue on your body causes these conditions. So anyway, so with covid, what we found was that, so we rewind a little bit, h1 n1 bird flu, there was a big study to show that being fat meant that you had worse outcomes if you got a h1 n1

they. Did, then a analysis and looked at, why could that be? Is it because fat people are just, you know, so unhealthy that, you know, we just die left, right and center? Or could something else be going on? Surprise, fucking surprise. What was going on is that the healthcare, the healthcare providers were biased in their treatment of fat folks. Fat people were getting worse treatment. They were getting put on ventilation later. They were basically experiencing poor health outcomes because of the biased treatment from the healthcare provider in places where fat people got equal access to people with smaller bodies, the outcome was the same, if not better, than people in smaller bodies. And that's what we found with covid as well. Because, you know, all of this fear mongering, you know, fat people are more at risk, and it's because of the fear mongering that tells us that fat people are, you know, have worse outcomes. And then, you know, healthcare providers obviously have that message of fat people have worse outcomes and, and it's a self fulfilling prophecy, right? So, yeah. So just a little look at his course is full of total old snooze fest, boring bullshit. I looked at, he's got many books. One of his books is called In Defense of Food. Actually, that's one of one of his shows which, it's a book that was made into a show. He has a show, Food, Inc. You might have seen it on Netflix. I hope you never watch it. I didn't watch it, but it's just filled with a lot of diet culture. So a synopsis of this, this documentary, which is a book in defense of food, if I just saw a title in defense of food, I'd be like, Okay, what's this about? Are you going to be like, listen, eat some food. It's great. No. In Defense of Food, the PBS documentary, based on the book, takes viewers on a fascinating journey to answer the question, What should I eat to be healthy, cutting through confusion and busting myths and misconceptions. Of film shows how common sense old fashioned wisdom can help us rediscover the pleasures of eating and avoid the chronic diseases so often associated with a modern diet. How are we still talking about this stuff? Michael Pollan's journey of discovery takes him from the plains of Tanzania, where one of the world's last remaining tribes of hunter gatherers still eats away our ancestors did to lo Melinda, California, where a group of Seventh Day Adventist vegetarians live longer than almost anyone else on Earth. Listen, I hope you're spotting this while I'm reading this. This is popping up to you. This group of people live longer than anyone else on Earth. This group of people eat the last hunter gatherers. So because someone is a hunter gatherer, we I don't know what's assumed that they are healthier or they have less disease, or they live longer, but they've said it for the group of vegetarians, they live longer than almost anywhere else on Earth. The basic, the basic thing that that that should be popping up here is anything else going on, anything, anything else that's going on with this group of seven days Adventist vegetarians. Is it just vegetarianism? That means that they live longer anyone than anyone else on earth. How? How many people are in this group? Is it just a handful of people? How many of them related? What else is going on in their lives? Do they happen to be white, well educated, with access to health care? Do they are they privileged in other ways? What else is going on? Oh, definitely, it's like the vegetarian it's vegetarianism definitely, along the way, he shows how a combination of faulty nutrition science and deceptive marketing practices have encouraged us to replace real food. What the fuck is real food with scientifically engineered food like substances? Oh, fuck off. Food like substances. What are you fucking talking about? Is it food? Can you eat it? Can you eat it? Is it gonna give you nutrition pleasure? Is it gonna satiate you? Is it gonna poison you? You know, if you can eat it. It's food. Food like substances, and just because something is engineered doesn't mean that it's not real, honestly. And he explains why the solution for our dietary woes, what dietary woes is, in fact, must be remarkably simple. Of course, it is. It's so simple, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. So simple. Oh my goodness, if only we all listened to Michael Pollan and we would be thin and healthy on the environment anyway. So that's Michael Pollan. And actually, I had, I remembered that I had heard a listen to something that he was a. Before because he'd written a book, he'd written a book on psychedelics, and so I was listening to a show on YouTube where he was talking about psychedelics and stuff, and that kind of like entertainment thing of, okay, this is a journalist. He's kind of bringing together stories to kind of create this narrative that is interesting to us. And so, you know, psychedelics, I'm, I'm interested in psychedelics in regards to healthcare, and also, probably, it's a lot of overblown. Is psychedelics going to cure everyone and everyone, everyone, no one's gonna have mental health problems anymore, and people who've got treatment resistant depression, everyone, they're going to be, they're going to have wonderful results. And blah, blah, blah is a lot of hype. Probably, could it help some people probably, who knows, but it's interesting, right? And it's, it's a topic that people are curious about, and so that's why I watch his video. And he's presenting in a way that's interesting, because he's telling stories, same with his book. So that's one of his what he does, but the rest of his stuff is a lot about food, and so I understand this stuff is interesting. He's a journalist. He's a good writer. He's telling stories. So of course, it's, it's so easy to get swept up in that stuff. Of well, he went to some tribe who are the last hunter gatherers, and this is what he found. So therefore, versus looking at actual evidence and studies and not boiling it down to it's simple. We all know. We've heard that. We all know so many times. Okay, so that's Michael Pollan, and Brittany also talks about the determinants of health. So the determinants of health, I've spoken about it in another podcast. I have a post on Instagram that goes into the determinants of health, but go INVO, G, O, I, N, V, o.com,

search, go INVO and then determinants of health, and you'll get a really good visual of the determinants of health. So I'm gonna go there, and I'm gonna talk to you about this. Okay, so go INVO identified this gap. Okay, so let me read the whole thing. Determinants of Health. Health is more than medical care. 89% of health occurs outside of the clinical space, through our genetic behavior, environment and social circumstances. These factors are known as the social determinants of health. Despite their importance, attempts to integrate the determinants into a single visualization has been limited. Go INVO identified this gap based on their extensive work as healthcare design studio, and conducted a literature review of sources World Health Organization and the Kaiser Family Foundation, and face to face interviews with public policy analysis health IT experts and Clinical Professionals relying on their expertise of mapping complex systems within healthcare, goinvo created a comprehensive open source visualization of the social determinants of health. Okay, so this is, this is work that they've been doing taking information from 2017 2018 etc. And so you can go and look at their methodology, and it's in Spanish too, and their references and blah, blah, blah. So basically, what we know as what makes up someone's health, what we know as in, in quotation marks, is like Michael Bollen says it's simple, eat less, exercise more, maybe drink water. You know, we are, that's what we need to do. Turns out, turns out, turns out, who would have believed it? Who would have thought it? It's a little bit more complex than that. So we have individual behavior that makes up 36% of the determinants of health, social circumstances make up. 24% genetics and biology, 22% medical care, 11% environment, 7% okay, so individual behavior, that's the food we eat and how much we exercise. All meals away. Well, no, well yes, in some ways, but it's not the it's not like the 100% or 90% that we thought. It's things like psychological assets. So that's conscientiousness level, the self, self efficacy, optimism, level, life satisfaction, level, cognitive, cognitive function in late life, net negative, mood and effects. And that is stress level, hopelessness level, anxiety level, depression level, other risk related behavior, gun behavior, sexual activity, motor vehicle behavior. And then we have the categories of physical activity, sleep patterns and diet patterns. Now we're not breaking down in physical activity and diet patterns. They don't break. On what that means they do. They probably do in but in this, in this overview, they've not broken it down, so they're not saying, okay, diet patterns, exactly what Michael Pollan said. Only eat plant based, eat less, whatever. So let's look. Let's dive in. Let's dive in a little bit more, and let's dive in a little bit more so of this individual behavior, which is only 36% it's broken down into those six categories, and diet and physical activity is 111, each. So that makes 3% okay, so 3% and this is, by the way, this you could say, okay, my sleep, my diet, my physical activity, my negative mood and outfits, my blah, blah, blah, it's all perfect. That does not mean that you're gonna have perfect health outcomes. These are determinants. These are what we've seen in populations determines better health outcomes, but it's not a do ABC and you're never going to die, right? So just keep that in mind. So we've got 3% but hang on. Michael Pollan says that. Well, what does he What does he say? I don't know if he says that if you eat these things and you're going to be healthy Actually, no, this is like how to eat healthy food. But does that make up a huge portion of what our health outcomes are? No, no. So when we're thinking about health, we can think about if we want to food and physical activity, and it will be things like access to enough food, access to reliable source of food, access to food that brings you joy and access to things that are nutritionally dense and can support our health outcomes in whatever way that means. So, for example, if you are allergic to shellfish, that you don't eat shellfish, right? Or if you are an epileptic, epileptic child, that you might want to do the keto diet, because that helps with that, right? So it's not just, did you eat a lettuce today? Right? It's all of it is more complicated than that, and something that's going to be good for one person isn't is going to be terrible for another person. So Michael Pollan saying this one thing, okay, this is, this is, this is, it's simple. It's simple. Is it? Michael, is it simple? Okay, so, so then, when we're talking about health, we also need to think about the all the other things. So individual behavior is 36% what about social circumstances? 24% and by the way, individual behavior, we also, I forgot to mention here a drug use. Did I forget to mention that anyway, individual behavior, when we think about psychological like psychological assets and negative mood and affects, is that something that we can change, for example, your stress level, your hopelessness level, your anxiety level, your depression level, so are those things that you can change? And sometimes yes, sometimes no, so that's individual behavior which is also not necessarily things that we can change. So social, social circumstances. What is social circumstances? Gender identity, military service, sexual orientation, citizenship status, race and ethnicity, social status, occupation, language and literacy, level, your income, your family income, your religious involvement, your culture and tradition, your history of incarceration, work conditions, discrimination, early childhood education, social connectedness, etc, right? So we do not think about when we say, let's be healthy. We don't say, hey, maybe let's not engage in maybe let's wear a seatbelt while we're driving. Maybe let's become a citizen and we're going to be more healthy. Maybe, let's not be around guns, and we'll be more healthy. Maybe, you know, that's not how we talk about health. But these are, you know, equal to diet and physical activity, right? So we have other things, physical environment, that is 7% so that's things like allergen, exposure to firearms, your location, pollution levels is where you live, walkable. Do you have a nice place to live? Are you exposed to carcinogens or lead? The water quality medical care is 11% that is things like. Patient Engagement, health literacy, quality of healthcare, access to healthcare, etc. And then genetics, we have body structure, body function, your chromosomes, your your gender, your age, your bone density, your blood pressure, your nutritional status, your biochemical function, sensory function, strength, right? And that's, you know, genetics, genetics that have given you those versus individual behaviors. So basically, what I'm trying to say with that is complicated, right? It's complicated. Now let's move to another thing that Brittany mentioned, organic food. And someone that I like listening to is food science babe, which she used, she's using that handle because there is someone called Food babe who makes videos, which is all you know, like, don't eat this because you're gonna die, those types of videos. And so she's called herself Food Science babe, to contradict the misinformation that food babe is giving out link to Food Science babe in the show notes, but you can just Google Food Science babe, and it's great because you'll have all of These wellness influencers who don't know anything going around the store being like, do not eat this thing because you are your eyeballs are gonna burn out of your head and you're gonna die as a carcinogen. And then Food Science babe says, chill, it's not and food science babe, by the way, is a chemical engineer and food scientist, so it's her job. It's her job to do this stuff, and she's studied it anyway. So organic so we talked about organic food. We've got talked about organic food. No, let's listen to what food science babe says about the top three organic food misconceptions.

Speaker 1 37:02

Here are the top three misconceptions about organic foods and organic farming. Number one, organic uses pesticides. Most are naturally derived, but some synthetics are also allowed. Now, natural doesn't mean safer for humans or the environment. Either naturally derived pesticides have overlapping toxicities with synthetic pesticides, and in many cases, the natural ones can be less effective and more has to be used. The organic restrictions wouldn't allow for a synthetic pesticide, even if it were the better option that would be safer and better for the environment. Number two, organic food is not more nutritious than conventional food. There are a few large systematic reviews and meta analyzes that show that there is no meaningful nutritional difference between organic foods and conventional foods. Number three, organic farming is not necessarily better for the environment, and in many cases, is worse. The main factor being that it's less efficient. It's up to 40% more land. It represents an ideological false dichotomy based on the appeal to nature fallacy. Okay,

Vinny Welsby 38:00

so thank you, Ed science babe, for explaining the science behind organic food that it's a scam. Basically, it's a scam. I used to work for an organic food company, and they would talk about how we know that organic food is a scam. And when I say scam, it's basically rich white people want to have a food to make themselves feel superior and that they believe is more healthy. So if they want this food, we're going to charge them more for it and sell it and make money from them, basically, right? If city rich white people think that this, this is going to be more healthy for them, or, you know, it helps with the elite status, then let's give it to them. But we know it's bullshit, right? So I because, before I worked there, this is like 10 years ago, before I worked there, I thought, you know, organic food is probably better. I don't know what's the harm. And and when I, when I started working there, I was like, what fuck? Hmm, like, Oh, okay. But also, they did have a ton of, like, other, they did believe a lot of other kind of really unhelpful bullshit around foods. And they'd have things like the Dirty Dozen, like, things like, don't, don't eat these foods. You have to eat these foods as organic. And it's like, what? But we know that it's bullshit. So, so anyway, it was kind of confusing. But organic food is not better. Organic food is basically, if you want to spend your money on it, it makes you feel good, then go over it. But, you know, it's kind of like the way I see is going to, you know, a mystic calling a phone line and talking to some mystic that's on, that's on Tiktok. I'm just laughing because I'm thinking about this woman that was exposed, and she would do like tarot card readings while doing a poo on the toilet, and people would complain, being like, we can hear her shitting while doing her readings. It was fun. Right? I wish I could remember what it was so I can share the video with you, but it was really fucking funny anyway. And so, you know, if you enjoy it, this is the way I feel, if you enjoy it, fine, whatever, you know, as a bit of entertainment, but, you know, it's not real, right? It's not real. So let's go back to, we've got all of those, those things in place. Let's go back to what Brittany has asked. I'm well aware that social that social determinants of health have a huge impact on our health and bodies, not necessarily, not necessarily so. If Brittany is talking about the social the the individual behavior, I'm thinking that Brittany's talking about individual behavior versus the all of the social determinants of health thing is huge reminder here we could follow all of these, right? We could be have perfect, quote, perfect mental health. We could never use any type of drugs. We could get eight hours of sleep, or however much sleep you need. We could only ever eat, quote, perfect food or work out in the perfect way. That's perfect for our body. We could always have safer sex. We could never speed right? These are all individual behaviors. We could also be white and CIS and heterosexual and have the perfect childhood and never experience any type of discrimination and never have any genetic conditions. We could never have exposure to locations that are not ideal. We could have perfect patient engagement. That doesn't mean that you're not gonna have poor health outcomes. It just doesn't work like that. We're all gonna die, right? It just means that you probably you might have better health outcomes. But you might not. You might do all the quote, good things and still be like, oh shit, I've got this debilitating condition or disease or whatever, right? Okay, so I'm well aware that social determinants of health have a huge impact on our health and our bodies, and that we need major systemic changes, yes, so that everyone has the same access to food, yes, healthcare less stressful. Like, yeah, yeah. So that's all great. So, so yes, yes, all of that. It would help. It's not the thing that's going to solve any health poor health outcomes. I'm trying to do my part to help dismantle all those systems, but very few of them actually apply to me. Is that true? I'm gonna make an assumption that Brittany is a woman. So does that mean that Britney's never experienced discrimination or any show that you have now in Brittany's life? Did Brittany have a perfect childhood? Has every work place that that that Britney's been in was fantastic. Does Britney have social connectedness? Does is Brittany a citizen? Has Brittany ever engaged in sexual activity? Does Britney have genetics from, does Britney have genetics passed down from the genes that will pass? Yes. Does Brittany have a body that ages? Yes? Does, yeah? I mean, yeah. I'm laughing. It's like, yes, you know. Does? You know? Does I mean? I mean no to all of it, like no, maybe, maybe not. Is, is Brittany living in the best location ever with with access to vocational training and education opportunities and public space quality and carcinogen exposure and high air quality, and ever been exposed to tobacco. And no, I mean, like, just because someone has privilege in some areas does not mean that you have privilege in all areas and and so just being white or cisgender or straight does not mean that you're going to have perfect health because, obviously, because, you know, white, straight people die too and have poor health outcomes too. But you know, it's better for us to not be exposed to these discrimination, right? Okay, so I'm a white, cis, upper middle class woman who has access to good healthcare, great and time in my schedule to do the things that are in my control, which doesn't mean that you're going to be healthy. I know it's not as simple as doing all the right things, but at the same time, I'm still fat, right? So health and weight are not the same thing, right? Um, and obviously Britney knows this. I'm still fat, and have a couple of lifestyle diseases that get blamed on O word, which is, you know exactly, get blamed on being fat. So we've got this jump of health is health is size and size is ill health. Size is the reason why I have these quote lifestyle diseases, which are in quotation marks because Brittany knows that that's bullshit, right? It's my assumption that you people with smaller bodies can have any of these things that are associated with having a bigger body and vice versa, right? So there's a kind of circle of health is in my control, and I'm fat, and fat equal fat equals poor health. And here's evidence I have, oh, related health outcomes, poor health outcomes. And therefore I'm in control of my health, and should do these things that make me have better health, but I don't, and the outcome is I'm fat, and so I have this so, you know, it's like a circle that goes around where something in here is not working right? Maybe, is it that health is not body size, that body size could be a predictor, not because of having extra adipose tissue, but because of all the things that fat people go through, diets, poor healthcare and lack of evidence based care. So anyway, continuing much of the messaging around social determinants of health comes across as you don't have to blame yourself for being unhealthy if you don't have access to organic foods, etc. But I do have access to organic foods. How do I reconcile this? Because organic food is not going to make you more healthy. It's just a marketing thing, right? So if you have access, if you have access to everything, say, if you're a multi millionaire, you have all the time, money, everything that doesn't matter, that doesn't matter, because our bodies are going to do what they're going to do. You can reduce your risk in certain ways, but, you know, our bodies are going to do what they're going to do. It's like, you know, taking the vaccine, taking a covid vaccine, it reduces my risk of getting covid, the strain of covid That, that, that I've you know, the vaccine is covering, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to get covid, but I'm decided that I'm going to engage in taking vaccines, because that takes up a little bit of risk, right? So when I got covid in October, I wasn't like, oh, well, how could that possibly be because I've done, I've done the right things. It's just one of those things, right? And so you could have access to everything, and it doesn't, you know, you could have wonderful health outcomes or not. You could have access to hardly anything, and be, you know, in

have a marginalized status in life, and, you know, have everything against you and still be, quote, unquote, healthy, whatever health is. So anyway, so this so then Brittany goes on to talk about Michael Pollan and the thin cis man that says, I know he's elitist, but you know, we are in the position that we can do things, so why don't we do as he says? Michael Pollan is a diet schlepper. Michael Pollan is a an entertainer, a journalist that is not looking at, is not involved in, in studies and looking at meta analysis, and he's looking at, so far, what I can see anecdotal data, even if he was looking at studies that said 100% only eat plants and then you're going to be super healthy. That still is not helpful advice, because you are not ever going to be able to be 100% healthy. And who says that you personally only eating plants is going to be good for your health. Who who says that? Who, who knows if you getting that advice is not going to turn it into some orthorexia, spiral into disordered eating, into being obsessed about food, into terrible mental health and restriction and just going on to the same diet culture cycle that many of us done for most of our lives. So why should we? Yeah, so why should we? Why? This person says, Why don't we do as he says, well, for many reasons, it could be really, really harmful to us. And why is it this one journalist is the arbitrator of what is healthy. So Brittany says I didn't know how to exactly how to counter this his argument that if none of the social determinants of that damaging apply to you, you should be healthy. Is he right? No, he's not right. He's not right because we have these unique bodies that do what they. Gonna do? We can try and reduce risk, but still, you could be wearing a seatbelt and still get into an accident. You could be wearing a seatbelt and get in an accident and have a terrible outcome, but you still gotta wear the seatbelt if that works for you, right? So is it possible to perfect your health? No, sorry if you don't have to battle so many of the things that most people do have to battle. No, sorry, you know what it's like. It's, it's, you know what I'm doing, dei training. And we talk about white privilege. What a lot of white people hear is that white privilege, that means that you have never struggled in life, and that your life is wonderful, and that you couldn't possibly have worked hard to get to where you are today. It doesn't mean that. It means that you just didn't have these extra hurdles in the way to get to where you are today. You still ran the race, right? You ran the race, and maybe there are a few hurdles along the way, but maybe the person next to you who doesn't have the same privilege that you have is running the same race, but has extra hurdles to overcome, or maybe extra hurdles, and also started later, or whatever it is, so you still fucking run in the race. And also, does that mean that if you run in the race and you have hurdles and you got to start first, doesn't mean you're going to win the race, does it? It means that you've got these privileges, but it doesn't mean that the outcome is determined. So just because you have these privileges, that it's just it's just data, it's just information, it's just knowledge about what ways that you have it good in life, and also is not a guaranteed outcome or recipe. So basically one, Michael Pollan, is a journalist who is selling diet culture, anti fatness and outdated bigoted views and packaging them as brand new, sparkly insights that he's gathered and put into this package of authority. You know as well, thinking about Michael Pollan, he's a rich, white guy. I don't know if he's, I think he's, he's cisgender. I don't know if he's, if he's straight, but anyway, he's got tons of privilege, right? He's got privilege, and he's got influence. And he's like, it's easy. He's like, she said, it's simple. We know it's not right. He's he is doing harm with this, the work that he's doing. And also, there's probably things in there that are true and that are entertaining and that are valuable, right? So we have to recognize, we have to recognize, as soon as we hear or see anything. So that quick Google I did of Michael Pollan. Within three minutes, I was like, Okay, I know what this guy's about. He's about diet culture, anti fatness, boring, same old, same old, same old, bullshit we've been hearing for decades, but they've done a good job of packaging it to not look like that. So you gotta get your kind of year diet culture radar and be like, Do

Unknown Speaker 53:09

you know

Vinny Welsby 53:11

what listen to that episode, which, which I did, which was, let me tell you what it was, episode 134, how to decode alarmist fatphobic news stories. So that one, how to decode alarmist fatphobic news stories that goes into Okay, so they've got a study. Great. Well, how many people were in the study? Who were, who was in the study? How long was the study? What was the results of the study, because, you know, you see all these, these, and I guess this is in this is, this is not a news story, but this is media. We've got this media that says XYZ. Well, let's look under the surface. Let's, let's, let's, let's look at, let's pop the hood. Let's pop the bonnet and see what's actually under there. And basically, is it anecdotal evidence? And for what I was seeing from that was stories, you know, and stories make really good ways to convince people, because it sounds right, if you go to this, this seventh day Baptist event is whatever it was, and they're vegetarians, and they live to 102 so therefore, you know, that's a great way to share information that makes it seem really compelling, but is it backed by data? And that's kind of the boring thing is like, is it backed by what else is going on? And so it's a great way for us to feel emotions and get as interested in things, and so we have to kind of do the boring work of, is a Is that true? Is like, is it backed by science? Is the science good? Is it reliable? Is it can we replicate this? Because so much of it is just a load of dog shit, honestly, and so. Whenever I see a headline, someone sends, I won't go out and look for him, but people will send me be like, have you seen this? And I'll just, you know, roll my eyes, because it'll be like, new thing makes people thin in three seconds. And you just know, you just know, oh, it was a study that was done on fucking dust mites. And it turned out that if you, you know, a dust mite lost weight if it was not fed food, and therefore you shouldn't eat food, because the dust mite became thin one time in 1974 and, oh, but it's a new study. And, you know, and it's just laughable, really. So getting that kind of critical thinking, of critical thinking of what, what really is the information I said. What's the harm of listening to Michael Pollan? What's the harm is the you know, who? Who is? Who is He? Is he a dietitian? No? Is he someone who is able to look at studies and show information that is free from harm. Doesn't look like that's what he's doing. Does he have his own biases? Yes. Is he bought into diet culture and anti fatness? Yes. So the harm is really quite evident, right? Why shouldn't we just listen to him? Because it's his call. He's causing me harm. Friend, is what I would say to him. This is such a great question, because I think it's more, it's it's nuanced, right? This stuff is, is it's more difficult to spot nowadays, because these motherfuckers are getting smart. They know that we're tired of, Hey, Fatty, lose weight, you loser. Stop eating donuts. You know? We, you know. We know that that's bullshit, and we can spot that really easily. And so they're going to have to get smart, and that's what they've been doing. And so make sure that you stay safe out there. And so when you see any type of headline, just think, I want to know what's already behind the headline. And when you're feeling that sense of, oh my goodness, well, I'm doing it wrong. Clearly I'm doing it wrong because I'm fat and I have health conditions, and if you get that kind of, well, maybe this is true. He's saying that. He's saying that if you eat this thing, then it's going to hit your gut at this point and and it's, you know, and making these statements like, we all know that being fat is bad, you know, like you said, like, oh, Americans of Americans eat, eat food, and so therefore they're fat, and therefore that's bad. You know, those types of statements, is that true? Is it true? Could there be bias there? Yeah, so I'd say maybe don't read his stuff. And also, as well, with stressing about health, stressing about health is not good for our health, right? And I know it's so hard, because we want to do everything we can to be alive for, you know, for as long as possible. I mean, not everyone you know, but a lot of people want to be alive for a long time, and a lot of people are really focused on health and and, and so it's difficult when you hear these messages over and over again about what makes up health, and maybe you're not healthy, and maybe we're aging when our health is changing, and that's difficult as well. It's difficult. So you know, trying to take in that shame and blame off you off yourself. If you can try and do try and do that, try and do that. Because, you know, it's not good it's not good for us, it's not good for us. Or maybe it works for you. Maybe you like that. You know that works for you. Go for it doesn't work for me. Doesn't work for me. Okay, well, next, I think we've been talking about in the show notes. I was in Ireland for a couple of weeks, and my sister got married, and I was a brides and mates, which is the gender neutral term for brides and mood, and I did a speech, and people laughed, and so made me improve my self esteem. Yeah. What else have I got to tell you? Oh, shit, yeah. Listen now. Listen now. Listen, if you have a job, you work at an organization, go get the fat work report. It's out. It's out. Okay, listen up here. It's out. I'm going to put the link in the show notes. I did a webinar. You can watch the webinar replay for free, and the report is free. Or if you want to, you can do a $3 donation or not. Well, it's up to you. You can just go to anywhere and find fat at work. Fat at work webinar, but I'm going to put it in the show notes so you can watch the webinar, or you can get the report, or you can do both, whatever you want. It's really fucking good. It's really good. Okay, it's good. Okay, okay, fat at work. Oh, and if you don't, you might not even know what I'm fucking talking about. Work. Fat at work webinar, basically, if you've not, if you're not in the loop, what the fuck are you talking about? I surveyed 336, fat people and asked them about their experiences at work. It could have, could have been you come you could have been one of the people that did the survey, if you did. Thank you so much. You are an absolute. Superstar, and it turns out that 95.65% of fat people have reported experiencing anti fatness in the workplace, which is a gargantuan, gigantic, enormous number, especially considering, depending on the workplace and the location, most people in our society live in, quote, plus size bodies, or larger bodies. The data that we have is 67% of people in America are plus size, and that's talking about women. But also we know that most men are mostly plus size anyway, and as well, you know, fat people are employed less and straight sized people, and some organizations might not have that many fat people. But anyway, a lot of people are living in bigger bodies, and almost 100% of people in bigger bodies in the workplace have experienced anti fat bias, which is not acceptable and really inappropriate, and so came up with the weight inclusive framework, which is weight weight inclusive consulting framework. Weight inclusive consulting is my consulting side of my business, which I go and talk and consult with companies and do this work, you know, work with, with, with organizations, training and whatnot. Anyway, what the fuck was I talking about? My brain just stopped working right then. Thanks. ADHD, no, must have been good. Whatever I was talking about. Yeah. So most people are experiencing, oh yeah, weight inclusive consulting framework, yeah. So the framework for making a workplace safer for the tap folks, the first step, which seems really just B, a n, a n, a n, a n a s bananas, is providing basic amenities, and most workplaces are not even at this first step, which is somewhere to sit close to where, and a washroom that's accessible and a workplace that doesn't have physical barriers in the way that people can't navigate very sick stuff. Can you imagine? Yes, you can. If you can imagine this stuff, if you're in a bigger body, basic amenities. So, so anyway, in the webinar and the report goes through all of those steps and and and whatnot. So, so you've got that, you've got that, you've got that free go to the link in the bio to get that. Thanks for hanging out with me today. Thank you to Brittany for the excellent question. And don't like, listen, listen, I'm always like, don't, don't feel ashamed. Don't feel ashamed. In case I was like, you know, being sassy and stuff, being like, this is bullshit.

Doesn't mean that you know you're not. You should have detected the bullshit. Obviously, I do this. I do this as a job, right? And these amazing motherfuckers are getting tricky. Okay? So if you're, you know, getting sucked into this, this bullshit, don't feel like you should not have, because it's really hard not to, because it's everywhere and it's insidious, all right, well, I'm gonna stop talking. Thanks for being here. Thanks for hanging out. Remember to stay fierce, Fatty, and remember you are worthy. You always were, and you always will be okay, buddy. You

Unknown Speaker 1:03:44

perfect. You.

Episode 190 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Vinny Welsby's Introduction and Podcast Setup 30:00

• Vinny's Recent Health Appointments 32:07

• Challenges with Healthcare and Body Image 39:52

• The Unlearning Fat Phobia and Body Hate Journey 43:14

• Body Positivity and Weight Loss 47:02

• Rules and Beliefs in the Fierce Fatty Friends Group 50:12

• Health and Weight Loss Statistics 54:52

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 30:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast, episode 77 being fat and unhealthy. Is it true that if you really loved yourself, you'd lose weight? Hmm, question mark, let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 30:22

We perfect.

Vinny Welsby 30:25

I'm Victoria welsby TEDx speaker, best selling, author and fat activist. I have transformed my life from hating my body with desperately low self esteem to being a courageous and confident, fierce fatty who loves every inch of this jelly society teaches us, living in a fat body is bad, but what if we spent less time, money and energy on the pursuit of thinness and instead focused on the things that actually matter, like if pineapple on pizza should be outlawed, or if the mullet was the greatest haircut of the 20th century. So how do you stop negative beliefs about your fat body controlling your life? It's the fierce fatty podcast. Let's begin. You someone is outside, cleaning something, power washing something, so hopefully you can't hear that noise too much. And welcome to this episode, 70. Someone two swans, a swimming isn't that seven? Is this one the swimming or is that? Yeah, two swans, a swimming. Bingo. Galling. Can't wait till we get to 88 to fat lady Sir, do you do that in North America with bingo? Do you have the legs 11 doors next door? I don't even know that as well, but whatever. Yeah. So how's life? Well, Shark a question. Why are you not responding rude? I'll ask you a question. How are y'all Well, I'm fine. Thank you. Thanks for asking. This week, I've been quite busy getting poked and prodded with things. I got a vaccination, not covid, so sad, so sad about it, but the HPV vaccination I got, I got the first one, like, years ago, and I Something must have happened in my brain where I just was like, don't understand, because I only got one when you have three. And I was like, I think, I think I've done it. But then I realized that I actually need three, so I'm starting again with the thing takes six months to get all three. So anyway, I got my HPV vaccine, the first of three, and then I got my yearly physical at the doctor. Well, I, I called, and I was like, I need to get a, I need to get a PAP booked in. A pap in in the UK is called a smear, smear test, which is the worst word smear like, come on now, pap is better, because pap is, I don't even know what pap stands for, but it sounds better than smear. Um, yeah. So the guy was like, Oh, do you want to get your yearly physical done? And I was like, I've never had a yearly physical before, so let's do it. I don't really know what is involved. Turns out it's just exactly what happens when I go to the doctor anyway, because I have hypothyroidism and low iron and things like that. I get my blood work taken all the time, so it's just like, getting your blood pressure. And because I'm on the pill, I get my blood pressure taken anyway, getting your blood work and your blood pressure. And then he was like, Well, part of the physical, I need to know your height and your weight. And I was like, No, thank you. I can tell you what my height is. And he's like, Yeah, we need to know your weight as well. And I was like, No thank you. And he's like, Oh, it's a part of the physical. And I was like, No, thank you. And he's like, Okay, I said, I'm five seven. He's like, read it on his piece of paper and then walked away. And I was like, that's the first time in that's the first time, have I got doctors? Yeah, that's the first time I've had to say no thank you to being away. So that's what the yearly physical is, is, I guess, being weighed. And so I had it in my head, oh, they might ask to weigh me. And I thought, am I going to educate them in the moment? And I thought, I'll see how it goes. Because if he was like but we need it, I would say I have a history of disordered eating and an eating disorder, and weighing me would be bad for my mental health. And then if, if they pressed anymore, I would say health. Weight is not an indicator of health. If I need to, if we need my weight to calculate medication doses, dosages, then that is absolutely fine. But as a general screening, it's not. Necessary. So I had that all prepared. And then I went and got and then I went and got my blood pressure, and my heart was beating because of that. And listen, I do this. This is my job, right? Talking about this stuff and having a very pleasant No, thank you. I had to say, No, thank you twice, a very pleasant No, thank you. And then he just said, okay, and then walked away. That caused my heart to start beating. And so then when I got my blood pressure done, one of the numbers was too high, and I was just about to get my pap, and she's under and she's like, Oh, that that other number is a bit high. And I said, it, could it be due to stress? And she's like, well, yes, you are sat on the bed with no clothes and just a paper gown, about to have a pat so yeah. And I was thinking, yeah, and I also had to deny being weighed, and I didn't know how the doctor was going to act. I didn't know if the doctor was going to, you know, kick down the door to the exam room for like, Bitch, give us your weight. Why are you telling us your weight? Get out, you know. So my heart was just being faster than normal. And so anyway, so I have to go back in a couple of weeks to get my blood pressure taken again, because hopefully I won't be as stressed. I could just feel my heart beating. And I was like, Victoria, your heart's beating fast right now because you're feeling stressed. So I want you to take some deep breaths and relax, because it's going to make the blood pressure reading go off. And then my brain was like, Oh, you want me to relax? I'll show you fucking relax, doing the opposite. So yeah, but I've had that before where I've had to go back and because I've been stressed going into the doctors, and so I want to extend massive empathy for those of you who are doing this stuff at the doctors, going and deny and say no thank you to being weighed because it's it's difficult, and it's kind of sometimes it might be better for your mental health just to be like, I'll be way. But don't tell me the weight, because that act of saying no is stressful. So anyway, so I've got my, I've got my my pap. If you've not got a PAP and you own a uterus, then I suggest you go in. It's, it's not a big deal. I was watching videos last night, even though I had my pap, like a week ago. I was watching videos about the procedure and shit like that, because I was like, I just want to know more. And because you when, when you go in, well, when I've gone in, I've had maybe five, perhaps six, perhaps in my life, you don't, you just, you just do the thing, and you don't see all the magical equipment that they use, not that there's loads of equipment, but it's pretty easy, like in and out, like this woman did it on, filmed her getting hers, and it took 44 seconds for them to Perform the whole procedure. So it's not that that big a deal, really, but it can be very, very stressful for people, and a lot of people don't go in because of that fear. And I really want to encourage you to go if you have a uterus, if you haven't already, because it's really good at preventing bad shit from happening 10 years ago, I got I had a pap, and it was I had an abnormal, abnormal results, and I had precancerous cells, and they just had to watch it, and it went away, which was cool, but sometimes, And that was, I was age 26 when that happened. And in the UK, you get your first pap at 25 I don't know about the rest of the world, but, but still, just because you're young, or if you've had the HPV vaccine, it doesn't mean that you're not at risk of, you know, an abnormal result. And the HPV vaccine, I learned now, it protects you from nine strains of HPV, and there's actually 90 strains, but the nine strains they protect you from are the most dangerous, the most the highest risk to cause cancer and other things that you don't want, but they're still even if you have the HPV vaccine, some people apparently think, oh, because I've had the vaccine, I can't get cervical cancer. And that ain't true. So anyway, it's fine, like, Do you know what it's like? It's like, it's like getting the covid test. Someone's sticking something like, deep inside that you're like, I don't like this. It's kind of uncomfortable, but it's done in a second and, oh, I didn't Whoa. That felt weird. You know, kind of like that. It'd be like, if someone put their finger in your ear and you'd be like, Oh, I just don't like that. It doesn't feel. Good, but I you know, and obviously everyone's has a different reaction anyway. So I also was at the doctors, because I am in the process, been in the process for the last year of seeking criminal compensation for my sexual assault and abuse at the hands of my ex partner now in the UK, if you're a victim of of a violent crime, I think has to be a violent crime. Maybe just a crime. No, no, I think a violent crime. If you're a victim of violent crime, you the the UK government, the government give you compensation. I never knew this, and so I was like, Oh, if that's so, I'm going to apply to get compensation. But because it's been more than a few years since I made my last report to the police, because I went back to the UK to report that he had raped me, and that was maybe 567, years ago. And so from that date, I had, I think it was a couple of years to make the report. And so now I'm having to demonstrate that, I couldn't, at the time, make the report, and I had to do that through my doctor's record, and it's and so I got all my doctor's records from just from one doctor. I need to get them from another doctor. And I was reading through so interesting. So some of the things that they write, I'm, like, what? Like, one of the reports, it said she is dressed. Well, like, what the fuck has that got to do anything that I'm I'm dressed? Well, this is weird. That's so weird to read that anyway. And so I'm reading all my things. And there was this one thing, I'm like, giving you all of my medical history right now in this episode, I'm like, so when I was seven, so I had had, I have IBS, right? And in the process of diagnosing my IBS, I had to go to gastroenterologist. And I was reading all the letters that gastroenterologist wrote to my GP, and she was saying things like, Oh, I've told Victoria to not eat this, and we've tried this diet and that diet, and she's vegan. At the time I was vegan, and she does everything I tell her, and there's no change to her symptoms. And so we've put the tube up a bum and in our mouth, you know? Well, that's good. What? What's that called? What is that called? Anyway, tube at the bum, at the mouth, and put the camera, they have a look, endoscope, something like that. Anyway, um, tube up the bum, in the mouth, had a look, took some biopsies, see if there's anything wrong in there. No, there's nothing. So conclusion, lose some weight. I was like, and the last thing, the last thing is, you know, she's done all of these things. We've done, all these investigations. I told Victoria to lose weight, and I don't remember this. So obviously that part of it didn't traumatize for me. I remember the after effects like I remember at that time I was dieting. Now I'm like, now I realize why? Because obviously she said that you have to lose weight. And you know, I was doing lots of weeks where I was, like, not eating this and not eating that, and blah, blah, and like, now I'm reading it. I'm like, I'm so mad because at the time I was Fuck, I done everything like they could. They don't know what it is, so they've done all these investigations. And so they're just like, Hmm, try not being fat. How about that? And as well, I was, I was, I was pretty small. I was, like, a small fat at the time, still fat, but it's like, What? What? Why? Whatever. What. What evidence you're a specialist in this area, and all you can say is, do this is to lose weight. What has that got to do with anything like, oh, just moment mad, and it's so unethical, like, lose weight. Oh, okay. How do you do that then? Oh, no. Study ever once produced in the history of the world that shows any method of weight loss is effective for only a small portion of people. So, so yeah. So all this has got me thinking. All this has got me thinking about our journeys into loving and accepting our bodies. And the health thing is such a big sticky thing, such a big sticky thing, and I see it time and time again. People are not able to accept their bodies because of something that's going on with their health or how they feel in their body, and they say, Well, I can't really go all in with loving my body, because I still want to lose weight. I shared something on Instagram. I made a an image. I'll link to it in the show notes, and it's and it's the unlearning fat. Phobia and body hate journey. So I shared that a little, sort of six steps of what it is. Let me read out the steps, and you can, you can think in your brain where you're at and how, how this is connected to what we're talking to today. So the unlearning fat phobia and body hate journey. Number one, step one, believe most, if not all, fat bodies are unhealthy, unattractive, unworthy. Number two, catalyst, slash event, which reveals body hate isn't sustainable. Begin to explore fat politics, slash weight science. Number three, step three, intellectually understands that fat people can be healthy, attractive and worthy. Still hold some problematic beliefs. Number Four finds lots of fat people attractive, but not their own fat body, letting go of healthism. Number five begins to appreciate like or even love their own fat body, and number six understand and embody the reality that the issue was never to do with fatness, but with power and oppression. So a lot of people get stuck at number three. And number four, which is intellectually understands fat people can be healthy, attractive and worthy, still holds problematic beliefs. And number four finds lots of fat people attractive, but not their own fat body, beginning to let go of healthism. So healthism, and then the other problematic beliefs, is, is, is, is a lot of what I'm talking about here is the the idea that it's okay to love your body, but I can't love my body because XYZ, and a lot of times that XYZ is because I just don't like the way it feels to be fat, and I need to lose weight because something, some reason, my health condition or whatever. And this is really highlighted. So I have a Facebook group, a private Facebook group. It's called fierce fatty friends. You can find the link in the show notes to join. And I share lots of different things in there. And one of the things I shared is a quote from a longer blog post, and the quote is, intentionally losing weight is the opposite of body positivity. So that was a quote, and then underneath is a whole kind of what does that mean? Exactly. So again, it's intentionally losing weight is the opposite of body positivity. So in a nutshell, what I'm talking about there is body positivity is a political movement created to uplift fat people, increase fat rights and visibility and all that type of stuff. And intentionally losing weight means that you buy into the idea that one, there is a weight, there is a diet that works, two, that you will gain health by losing weight, and that instead of trying to become more healthy at the weight you are three, you're in the act of erasing a fat body and four. It's just It's got nothing to do with body positivity. Like, hey, we have a political movement that says it's okay to be fair, and we should uplift fat people. And losing weight is, which is, is the opposite. It's just the opposite. It's the opposite. It's like, say, if you're in a I love corn flakes club, okay, I love corn flakes club. And then when you go home, you're like, Yeah, I'm the number one member of the I love corn flakes club, you're out campaigning to remove corn flakes from the world and and you hate corn flakes yourself, and you refuse to have corn flakes in your house, and you think they're disgusting. Well, what? They're just zebra things. Just go to the you know, I love cereal club, if you're a serial fan, but you hate cornflakes that you know, it's just, you know, it's just not the right thing. Because a lot of people think, because of how a lot of people portray body positivity, a lot of people think body positivity is loving your body, loving your body and body positivity are two separate concepts. You can love your body and not be positive. Body Positive. You can be body positive and not love your body. They're two separate things. Body Positive is a political movement, and it's all about the rights of fat people marginalized bodies, and loving your body is about loving your body. So anyway, I put this quote, intentionally losing weight is the opposite of body positivity, and. And and by the way, the word intentionally is important there as well, because sometimes our bodies, we lose weight, we gain weight. You know, it's just what our bodies does, but it's when we are being like, right? I need to become thin and going on a diet. Okay? So a lot of people said, I don't agree with this, because if you really loved yourself, you'd lose weight. And I was like, that's the brakes button on there. And I was like, What the fuck. How are these people in my group? And also, okay, I need to lay some ground rules here. And also, this is interesting, because people are stumbling at this, yeah, I love myself. That's why I want to lose weight, because I love myself. Fucking diet culture, bullshit, motherfuckers, companies, co opting this. Well, if you love yourself, your body positive so you want to lose no no no no, no.

Well, I guess you know some, I mean, some people that is true, right? If you loved yourself, I love myself, so I'm going to lose weight. And I, you know, I say is true with like, a big kind of like, is really comes from a lot of like dieting. Just comes from a lot of negative self hating, fat, hating, oppression, bullshit. So is it coming from a place of light and love and fairies and flowers. I don't think so. So anyway, so I had to write a post. I had to, I wanted to write a post to pin at the top of the group so that whenever people come in, because sometimes people come in and they've and I always presume everyone's listened to the podcast, everyone has been on my Instagram. Everyone knows who I am, and they come into the group. But there could be people, and I have screening questions. I have screening questions to get in. There could be people that have just seen me two minutes ago, and they presume, oh, this is a weight loss group or or, or some I don't know. They just, they don't know what I'm about. And so I've pinned a post at the top of the group to make sure that everyone's in agreeance. And if you're not, I don't want you in the group, because I don't want any we have rules in the group, like you can't use the O words, you can't talk about how you're a fat piece of shit, and you know, you can't say things to hurt others and all sorts of different rules, but not like 1000 rules, but basically, don't be a dick and hurt other people. But anyway, so this is a post I want to clarify the beliefs of this group so that we're all on the same page. First one, there is no reliable way to lose weight. Not one single study has ever been published to show any way to reduce our size for any more than a tiny percentage of people long term if you want to lose weight for quote, unquote, health reasons, this doesn't mean weight loss will magically work for you. Next one, saying it's okay to be fat as long as you're healthy, is problematic. This is healthism and playing into the quote, unquote, good fatty trope. Next the O words, and I've written out what they are in and sense of them. The O words are slurs. If you use if you use if you use them in the group, then you must censor them, like I have here. And then next one is, health is a social construct. It is a very complicated issue, and there are many factors that make up someone's quote, unquote health status, including things like access to health care, associated economic status, race, education level, amount of weight stigma, experience, etc. Next, straight sized people can get the same health issues as fat people, seeing as we know weight loss doesn't work. Then seeking to improve health issues outside of focusing on weight is probably going to have the most helpful outcome. If you have issues with any of the verb, then this is probably not the right place for you. I will not tolerate the continued conflation of weight and health. Example, I love myself, therefore I'm going to lose weight to be healthy. The idea that you have to be healthy to be a quote, unquote, good fatty, the use of uncensored o words, moralizing health. Not everyone can be healthy. Not everyone wants to be healthy. Some people really like focusing on improving their health. Some people want to focus on proving their mental health. All of these are morally equal. Again. If you have issues with any of the above, then this is probably not the right place for you. So the reason why. I'm telling you all this is, is to kind of untangle that, that that health thing, that health thing, I'm not going to tell you what to do with your body. Sometimes people need to do that one last diet to prove to themselves that, yeah, dieting is not the right path for me, or they could be in that tiny percentage that is like, loses weight and has no real effects and runs off into the sunset in the arms of their hunky lover. You know, who knows, chances are is going to be the first unfortunately, and then you can run into the arms of this, into the arms of your hunky lover, into a sunset as a fat person, or as a person who doesn't diet. So in some ways that you know, going on a diet could be helpful for some people, because it could get them to a place where they're like, Okay, well, I'm gonna try and work out how to overcome how I'm feeling, but it's a risky thing to partake in. And if we can get you to a place where you don't potentially have to harm your physical and mental health to understand diets is diets of bullshit, then that is probably the better route. But you know, sometimes people just got to learn, right? And so when people are like, No, I just need to die. I'm just like, go, go for it. You know, if that's, if that's what you feel like you need to do, then maybe it is. You know, you you do what you want with your body. But also, if you're interested here, here are some other things to consider. So, some things I want to consider about this idea, if you loved yourself, then you would go on a diet, or, you know it. I, you know that stumbling block, block of but I, I want to lose weight for for this quote, unquote good reason, I don't want to lose weight because I want to look sexy. I want to lose weight because I want to run around with my kids and and I want to be able to touch my toes and tie my shoelaces, and I want to improve this health condition that I'm living with. And if you want to be healthy, like great, of course, many people do. Many people want to live a long and happy life, and that's a normal desire that doesn't make some you know, if that is you, that doesn't make you morally superior, if that's not you, that doesn't make you morally inferior. And also, as I mentioned in that post, not everyone can be healthy. That's first thing. If you want to be healthy, that's normal. And the second thing is, it's not your fault if you have a fat body and if you're unhealthy, it's not something that you need to blame yourself for either. The shame that you're feeling can have dramatic negative effects on your physical and mental health. So all of that shame we just need to work on. Get rid of get getting rid of it because it's not helpful. Number three, no matter the reason for wanting to lose weight, your body responds the same way. So it's not like your body is like, Huh? Well, finally, this bitch is doing a diet because she wants to be healthy, because she wants to run a marathon, because she wants to whatever. Well, now I'm gonna listen to her, and I'm gonna become really thin and healthy and woo. She's finally got the memo, not like before she was trying to lose weight because she wanted to be sexy for her husband. But your body doesn't your body. Unfortunately, our bodies are really fucking smart, but you know, it's not going to be like, Oh, well, this time the restriction, the restriction is all about loving yourself. In that case, I'm just going to go against everything that I want to do in live. This is your body talking and become really thin. Your body doesn't know doesn't matter. It. The stats are the same. 95 to 98% of people don't succeed at diets. There's no evidence to show that we can make our body smaller in the long term, and the maximum, maximum efficacy rate of a diet is 5% so imagine if your doctor gave you a pill and said, hey, hey, take these pills, there are some, you know, potentially deadly side effects. Don't worry about those, because there's a 5% chance you might temporarily lose a 5% chance Max, but you know, you could be actually two out of three people end up fatter after taking the pill. But there's a 5% chance you might lose weight. But two out of three people actually put on more weight after the pill. Two out of three, yeah, yeah, that's 66% of people. 66% of people, but there's a 5% chance people like, Excuse me, my mother. No. Thank you. And depending on your size, the bigger you are, for bigger people, for the fatter people, there's a nought point, not 8% chance for a bigger person to become smaller long term. So if you are fatter, the chances of you becoming smaller, slim. Pun there, but I didn't mean to do it. It's not, it's not likely. And if you do diet, then chances are two out of three people will be bigger than they started out. And 90% of people display 90%

of people who are on a diet display symptoms of an eating disorder while on a diet. And we know I've said in an episode about a couple of episodes, again, the harmful effects of weight cycling, which is yo yo dieting. And a lot of the effects of yo yo dieting are the similar effects that we see in people with higher weight, things like elevated blood pressure and higher risk of certain things, and that can be put down to weight cycling. It's just not good for us, not good for our physical or mental health. So sometimes you'll see anecdotal evidence, maybe in yourself or in others, that when they lose weight, or when you lose weight, when you've lost weight in the past, your condition is better, seems to improve. And here's that, here's like two. Two sides of that is maybe if you have a smaller body, you're able to do things like tie your shoelace laces because you have less adipose tissue, like, that's a that's just, like, a physical thing. There's less of you, there's less of you to move around to get to your laces. That's, that's just a fact, right? So losing weight could help with being able to do something like, you know, mobility temporarily, and then chances are that you will become bigger than before. And so actually, it's it's worse for mobility, if it's literally just your body is in the way of you performing a task. And the other side is it. Of this is when people engage in dieting. What they often do is engage in things like physical activity, improving their strength, their stamina, eating a variety of foods. Now, these things, independent of weight loss, are beneficial to our health. And so if we take the take out the goal of weight loss, which studies have done that we take out of our goal of weight loss, it shows that health promoting activities are way more sustainable versus if we put weight loss in there as well. And so if two people, one was had the same was eating a variety of foods, was moving, their body was not smoking, you know, whatever. And the same person was doing the exact same thing, but also their goal was to lose weight. That person whose goal is to lose weight will stop the the health promoting behaviors way quicker than the one just doing it, just because they want to improve their health, because weight loss doesn't work. And when the person B sees I'm doing all this stuff, I'm not losing weight anymore. I might have at the beginning, but not anymore. Fuck it. It's not working. Whereas Person A, they're not looking at the way. They can see that actually, if I try and improve my stamina and my strength, turns out my stammering strength improves, you know, because they're not looking at the number on the scale and they're looking at what they can do with their body or how they feel when they eat certain foods. Then they can see the results, and they can say, Oh, wow, this is great, and this is working. But if they were looking at the weight on the scale, they'd be like, this is not working. So you might have that anecdotal evidence of, well, when I'm when I have a smaller body, I just feel better. Well, what are you doing? And also, do you feel better just because it's nicer to be in society when you have a smaller body, there's lots of things going on there. So if you really loved yourself, you would lose weight. I don't know if that is true. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not true, because I. The two really like, if you love yourself, if you love yourself, you'll you will do. You will try and do what's best for yourself through a lens of compassion. And is it compassionate towards yourself, to diets? My answer to that is No, not really, because it's harmful to my physical and mental health and it doesn't, doesn't make me it doesn't make me thinner or better, and even if it did make me thinner, which is very, very unlikely, that doesn't improve my self love. A lot of times, people on diets, their self love or self esteem or body satisfaction levels go down because they're so focused on their body, what it looks like. So if you still feel like you need to diet because you have a health condition, these are the six things I want you to know. One, if you want to be healthy, that's totally normal. Doesn't make you a bad person. Many people want to be healthy, but we also need to recognize that not everyone can be healthy. And focusing on health physical health too much, and not focusing on mental health or focusing on health in general, too much can be problematic and unhealthy. It's not your fault if you have a fat body, and it's not your fault if you have any type of of health condition, and shaming yourself for that is is going to probably have negative impacts on you, and no matter the reason for wanting to lose weight, your body responds in the same way. So we know these numbers, 95 to 98% of diets fail, and it doesn't matter if you want to lose weight because it just feels better to be smaller, or you have a health condition, or your doctor told you, those stats remain exactly the same. Two thirds of people who go on a diet will gain more weight than they started with. 90% of people who are on a diet display eating disorder, symptoms of an eating disorder, and depending on your size, the higher weight that you are, you have a naught point, naught 8% chance of becoming small and staying that way so it doesn't it doesn't matter if you want to become smaller because you want to run after your kids, or you want to be more athletic, or you want to live longer, there's simply no way to become smaller. But there are ways to become healthy, and if we focus on our health outside of our weight, we are way more likely to maintain those health promoting behaviors that we could engage in. And so at all times, you will have that anecdotal evidence of when I was smaller, I felt better. Well, my question to you is, what were you doing when you were smaller? Were you moving in a certain way? Were you being outside more where you was your mental health improved? Like? What else were you doing at that time that made you feel better, and potentially doing those things outside of trying to lose weight is going to make you feel the same way. So explore that. And if you are in that stumbling block of, I just, I can't move to that, you know, in that that that unlearning fat phobia and body hate journey steps I can't move from three, four to five, and five, which is begins to appreciate like or even love your own fat body, and number six is understand and embody the reality that the issue was never to do with madness, with but with power impression. It could be the health thing, and also it could be that that you're in Constant Learner effect, in Constant Learner mode, and that you're not taking action, and that you were doing things like learning, learning, learning, and you're not doing, doing, doing. So they they, they could be the things that are are keeping you stuck so, all right, well, thank you all for hanging out with me today, and I will see you. On. Oh, hang on, wait, wait, wait, wait, don't go yet. Don't you go. Yeah, reminder, go and sign up for. The how to love your body. Challenge, fiercefatti.com, forward slash challenge, how to love your body. Be in all the photos. Ditch the boring clothes and stop pulling down your top to hide your belly. Gonna have a challenge. It's gonna be amazing. It's happening on May the pull up my calendar, may the May the third, may the third, and it's going to be another. It's March right now, and I'm I'm already working on it, so you know that shit is going to be good. So go. Say No, go. Sign up. It's free. And fitzfight.com forward slash challenge. You can find the link in the show notes, and I'll see you next time. Okay, now you can go all right, I got that.

Thanks for listening to the episode, and if you feel ready to get serious about this work, and want to know when the doors open to fierce fatty Academy, which is my signature program, where I teach all about how to overcome your fat phobic beliefs and learn to love your fat body. Then go to fiercefatti.com, forward slash waitlist. Again, that is fiercefatti.com forward slash waitlist to get your name on the waitlist for when fiercefatti Academy, my signature program, opens foreign.

Episode 189 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Internet beef and a song parody about stolen recipes. 0:00

• Anti-fat bias in the workplace with 95.65% of respondents experiencing it. 2:15

• How anti-fat bias almost ruined speaker's life, now unlearning and living a more confident life. 8:13

• Eating disorders and body image as a fat person. 14:36

• Advocating for oneself in healthcare settings. 18:14

• Body image, disordered eating, and self-esteem. 25:03

• Body image, self-erasure, and the impact of societal beauty standards. 29:44

• Body image, self-acceptance, and personal growth. 32:57

• Anti-fat bias, food, and self-care. 38:44

• Neurodivergence, food, and forgetting to eat. 42:56

• Self-expression, identity, and mental health. 45:25

• Body image, relationships, and personal growth. 51:21

• Unlearning weight bias and self-care for fat individuals. 56:31

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 189 Six ways hate in my fat body almost ruined my life. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby They/them. Let's do it.

Hello, welcome to this episode How you doing? How's life? You're right. I'm all right. You're right. All right, good. It's nice to see ya. I've got a song in my brain, but a song in my brain. Probably I've got this song in my brain because I listened to it about 100 times the other night. ADHD, ADHD is fucking with me. Actually, that's not the song. But do you I don't know if you ever saw this, but during the pandemic, there was this person who took internet beef and made them into songs. I'm gonna put it in the show notes because this thing I just it's just it's just perfection. The song goes. So he's he's he's reading the lines of like a Facebook post. Care. No know. Keep my name out of your thin mouth. And what did Caroline do? Hell, she stole my broccoli. casserole recipe. A is a girl and claimed it was hers. She was oh you not talking about E mopey. Friend Carolyn or she Griffin later? Question later. She's a rotten recipe still in Mitch, Joris. Ooh, kettle, who your friends are honestly, that login jingle that's the whole thing. Is is in my brain. And I am not mad about it. Because it's a it's a it's a bump. As the children say it's a it's a tune. It's a it's a jingle. I'm gonna put it the the video for it. It's in the show notes. You know, the person is like he's wearing I'm presuming him pronouns. Like a bonnet and then Karnas in his hair. And there's if you go on Tik Tok, there's other people who've done versions of it. And some of them are just magnificent. Anyway, we're here to talk about that stuff. A little update on the last episode, we did the work stories. And I was making the we're inclusive report. We're inclusive consulting report. Well, a couple of days ago, I managed to complete it after a zillion hours of work, a real labor of love. And so I sent it to the people who took the survey and said, Here, listen, here's a rough draft, if you want to have a look at it, you get a sneak peek and therefore. So if you want to correct any mistakes that you see, let me know, like proofreading it and it's a 58 page document. And I am so proud of myself because there was only like, four mistakes in the whole document. Said, although I keep going through and being like oh, here's a little error, there's gonna be a little like, if didn't move this thing, one thing to the left or whatever. I have a degree in illustration. So I have a little bit of an eye for graphic design. So I noticed like little things are just it's I'm being I'm being I'm being I'm being too perfectionist shinny with it at the moment. So anyway, I'm literally looking at it as we're speaking and editing everything, that box needs to go three millimeters to the left. That way it's going to be you're rarely perfect. So silly. Anyway, so this thing is if I do say so myself really fucking good. And we have lots of stories. We shared some of them in the episode last time, but we've got lots more. And we've got all of the stats that have been completed and the impacts and analysis and pictures of fat people. I mean, it's amazing. So I'm going to endeavor to have the link in the show notes but if you're but I haven't like done the landing page yet. So I'm going to hope my A gage D brain remembers to put the link in the show notes for you. In fact, I'm gonna put, I'm gonna make a little reminder right now to do it. But if for any reason, this reminder fails me, you can probably when this episode is out, just go anywhere on my website, and all my LinkedIn and find a link to download it yourself if you want if you want. So, okay. And the way that you would use that report is that you would if you're in the workplace, and you've even just read it just for you know, because it's interesting. But also, if you are in a workplace, you can show your if there's any decision makers about if you are allowed to invest in anti bias training, or if it even is a topic that can be on the blocks, you can show this data or the data is I looked at, so around 75 plus percent. The first one of the first questions was, have you experienced anti bias in the workplace? And around 75 plus percent said, Yes. And then the next question was, have you experienced these things? And so then it listed out lots of different experiences of anti fatness. And of those people that said, No, I haven't experienced it, or I'm unsure if I've experienced almost all of them went to go on to say, Oh, actually, yes, I have experienced it when I when I listed out experiences, right. And I think the reason for that is because that people are not aware that someone making fat jokes is anti fatness or people talking about how they want to lose weight because they don't want to be fat is anti fatness. And so when it's spelled spelled out people like oh, yeah, well, definitely, I've experienced that. And so the statistic was 95.65% of respondents described experiences of anti fat bias in the workplace 95.65% and the that we had 336 survey respondents, just an FYI. So it's not an insignificant number. So you so you know, as fat people we know, right? That this is just such a common experience. But just knowing that almost 100% of every fat person in the workplace is experiencing anti fat bias or has experienced anti fat bias. Almost 100% Isn't that huge? Hey, Arnold. Huge, makes me want to say that line from pretty big mistake. Huge. You know, she goes in and into the shop. Yeah. And so go download it, beloved, bloop, bloop, use it, read it, whatever. Oh, not, this might not interest you. And I've asked you, that's okay. So, I've been thinking about because I have a training coming up it, you'll be able to get the replay if you want. Probably this episode comes out, but I have a training coming up, how to unlearn anti fat bias, so that you can feel at peace with your body, and others. And it's a brand new two hour training that I'm doing. And anyway, I was thinking about this, like, why what has what's different in my life, now that I am and have been working to unlearn anti fat bias. By the way, this is like a lifelong thing, right? Because the way that I see it is my brain is constantly being bombarded with not as much as before, because I curate my life as much as I can, but is a big bond on bombarded with anti fat messaging. And so it's like a constant kind of like, what thing has snuck in or what thing is still there. And luckily, my brain is amazing and will ever so often be like, here's an anti fat belief, and I'm like, Hey, thank you brain. Let's work on that one. So anyway, it's a lifelong thing. No one's no one's ever, quote, cured from being anti fat. We all are anti fat, right? Unless you live in this, I'm thinking like, what? There are some people who've like grown up and they've had wonderful experiences and have learned to say that all of that stuff is bullshit, but I've never met one but I know they must exist. I know that people must exist, and they're just like, oh, what you were doing that is great and thin is great and whatever. But you know, almost all of us have those those beliefs in our in our brains. And so not I don't need to list I kind of like the benefits of unlearning anti fat bias and how anti fatness almost, you know, oh, I say almost ruined my life but I just think with that, that of Holy shit. Imagine if right now. I was still in it. Oh my goodness, oh, just wow, my life would look so different. So different. Here's my prediction, I would be dating some I don't wanna say, loser, maybe that feels unkind.

I will be dating someone who was unsuitable for me and who is, is, I would perceive them as the best I could get as a fat person, I probably would have had kids not saying that having kids is bad or anything, but I don't want to have kids and my confidence in not dating just any old Tom, Dick, or Harry has meant that I've been able to assess, did I actually want kids because I used to want kids, and almost had kids with one of my ex partners. Were talking about it, right. And I was like, let's do it. And we were together for six years. And so it was a very real possibility. And anyway, so I would have been tied to this partner who didn't meet my needs. So who probably maybe wasn't the greatest parent to this to these fictional children that I have. And then I would be continuing on the generational trauma of body hate to my children. Because I'd be like, Oh, we can't have fat kids. If I'm fat, we can't have fat kids, we're going to do everything to make sure that I don't fuck up these kids by making them like letting them be fat. And so I'd be fucking up my kids with. Although I wouldn't, I wouldn't be trying to obviously, I'd be thinking that let's let's, let's do good by them, but making sure that they're thin people, you know, because I fucked up my life by being fat. So let's help them not fuck up their lives by being fat. That's what I would be thinking, I promise. But then also, I'd beat obviously love them lots. So would I be living where I am? Probably not. Would I be doing the same activities? Probably not. Like you know, spending going summertime going to the beach with my friends and playing with my dog and wearing a thong bikini a couple of weeks ago, went to the beach with a few friends and was just like, You know what, I've got this, this bikini bottom that the front is way too tiny. Like the front was made for a straight sized person. And you know, would be obscene if I wore it the correct way round. And then the back was bigger. Like what the heck, like what the front was made for someone who like, I don't know, a Barbie or something. If I had worn at the front way, then then it would have just been, you know, a thong worn the wrong way. So anyway, I worked the other way round. And so then it became a thong bikini, and I was just like, I look at my bum hole, not the hole, the cheeks, look at my, my bum cheeks, and didn't give a fuck and it was just great. Would I have done that before? Fuck, no, I'd be wearing a cover up at the beach and being like, Oh my God, who can like what if? What if I go in the water and this t shirt is clinging to me and and people can see the outline of my body all the horror. So I wouldn't be doing the same things. So yeah, anyway, that's my prediction of, and again, not saying that having kids is like some terrible thing. But you know, if I did have kids, I would have been I didn't want to have kids, but I didn't realize that until I could get out of genome heteronormativity but I would be fucking up the kids. If I did have kids, they'd be great kids. They wouldn't imagine if I had kids, they'd be amazing. Don't want kids anyway. So I thought about the the kind of the six main ways that hating my fat body almost ruined my life. And so let's go through them and then what it's like now, now this is my experience. This might not be your experience, you might have different things going on and also the kind of after unlearning anti fat buy stuff. Again, that not might not be the way things other people experience it or you would experience it if you have or are going to or thinking about unlearning anti fat bias. This is just the way things I have seen but my experiences are not unique. And after talking to a lot of people about anti fatness and helping people overcome anti fatness these are just so fucking common experiences eye rolling ly common. So when I say ironically, I was just like, oh, this is so sad. Like I said I roll of oh, what are we accepting? Anyway? Okay, first way is when I had my fat buildup body, I would restrict my food to lose weight and subsequently developed to restrictive eating disorders. By the way, I always say when I say eating disorders, and I say restrictive eating disorders is I feel like when I'm putting it's kind of like a difficult thing of when I say restrictive eating disorders. I say it because I want to challenge anti fat bias. And say by the way, fat people have restrictive eating disorders and all eating disorders are restrictive. Right now. I was like all many most words. Yeah, I guess you can have like a different relationship with food. But I'd say like, you know, obviously, anorexia is restrictive and the word so I had a typical anorexia, atypical means anorexia, and that person, and binge eating disorder and binge eating disorder is a restrictive eating disorder. And people don't know that it's a restrictive eating disorder, because they just see the consequences of the restricts restriction. Anyway, so I say restrictive eating disorders so that people are challenged that fat challenged by the idea that fat people don't have restricted eating disorders, they only have BPD, which they were that they perceive as a non restrictive eating disorder, an eating disorder, where you're eating too much, which is not the case, you might be eating more than your body wants, but the reason for that is because of restriction anyway. And so then also, then I'm thinking about the idea of good, Fatty, bad, fatty dichotomy. And am I when I'm saying restrictive eating disorders, am I being the quote, good, fatty and being like, well, I didn't have one of the greedy, restrict eating disorders, you know, not that there is a greedy one. But that's how people perceive the IDI not everyone. So, so I'm, you know, I'm thinking about anyway, I'm one sentence and I'm already dissecting every word being like. Yeah, anyway, so at the moment I'm, I'm going with with using restrictive eating disorders, because it feels like it's challenging anti fatness, more than it is the more than it is playing into it. But I'm one of those good fat people. But yeah, if that could change. Alright, so from the moment I opened my eyes in the morning, I thought about food and what I would soon be, quote, allowed to eat for breakfast, and then counted down the moments until lunch and then did the same for dinner. And this behavior was praised, because I was fat. I remember so clearly going to the doctors and being like, jumping on the scale. And the doctor being like, Oh, wow, what are you doing? This is emerging, and I happened to be going through old doctor's notes, because I had to get done. I had to get my, my doctor's records for something. And anyway, so this is like 20 years ago, and I could because they would weigh me every time I went to this, the British doctors, they'd weigh me every time. And so you'd see my weight, just dramatically drop, which between the visits, like, huge amount, and I'm like, now I'm like, hello. This is a cause for concern, not phrase. And if I wasn't someone in a smaller body, then on my notes on my charts, it would have been like, you know, has a restrictive eating disorder or disordered eating or is losing weight way too much way too quickly. But because I'm a fat person, they were just like, yes, you get it. You keep doing what you're doing. Oh, and you starving yourself. Love it. It's working for you. By the way, why this is on my mind. I want to tell you something. So I got a new health care provider. Last one was just a comically awful, you know, you go in and she, you know, she'd open the door. She'd be like, Look at you, she wouldn't even look at you. But she kind of like, what, what do you want? Why are you here? And when I got my ADHD diagnosis, she she was like, well, people just buy them off the internet. And she's just just terrible, just terrible. Anyway, so some in in in told me about this place was wood. That was they had some nurse practitioners that was taking clients anyway. So then I met this met this did a virtual call with with this with this guy who would be my theoretically my new healthcare provider. And it was great, good, perfect timing what I did, and he was like, Oh, cool. And I was like, Oh, my God, he didn't you know, he said, Oh, cool. When I said, I'm, you know, I help people learn antivirus. Anyway. So then I told him, I said, I have a history of of restrictive eating disorders, as well as all of the other things, you know, because you need to know your history. After our call. He sent me an email and in that email was linked to do two diets. And I was just like, I was so excited and hopeful. And then I was like, wow.

How did you not hear the whole I have a history of restrictive eating disorders anyway. So I was like, I think this person is a good person and cares about my care. I did not think about that. Think that about my old doctor. And so he was like, book a meeting with me and we'll do like blood pressure or whatever. And so when I went to the meeting with him, I had a plan in mind to tell him, ask him if he would like some feedback on making the experience more fat positive. And so I went in and I had some light I took some, like, little postcards from my business being like, this is a fat positive space. And then also, some don't weigh me cards. And at the end, I said, Hey, this has been great. You're amazing. I was basically like, Oh, I love you. And I was like, Would you like some feedback? And he said, Yes. And I said, Hey, this thing happened. And and he was like, Can we say much? And so then I started, I kept talking. And I was like, you know, so my recommendation is, you know, don't prescribe diets to anyone, even if, you know, especially people who have a history of eating disorder. And I was like, you know, the Canadian Canadian Canadian group of doctors who said that diets don't work. And you know, we have 100 years of history to show that dieting doesn't work. And, and I was listening to myself being like, wow, I'm just so anxious in this moment. And like, apologetic and afterwards, you know, you said, Oh, but what if someone has someone XYZ? And I said, Well, oh, I said, Oh, well, you were nutritionist. And they and he was like, Oh, no. And I said, Okay, well, then you can refer them to a nutritionist, preferably one who is health, every size aligned. And then I just was, like, I felt so vulnerable. And after, and then after that, I was like, but by the way, this has been the best experience with a healthcare provider of my life, which is true, which is true, but I was just like, and also, this won't be every time we meet, I'm not going to be critiquing your work every time we meet and, and, you know, I'm sorry. And I was basically on my hands and knees not literally, but I was like kissing his feet, metaphorically being like, I'm so sorry for even bringing it up. And and I was like, but I'm a good patient. And oh, my goodness is just like observing what I was doing and being like, wow, you this is this is like a difficult triggering for you, you know, something's happening, because I wanted him to perceive me as a good fat person, not a troublemaker. I didn't want him to be writing in his notes being like, this fucking bitch, came in here and told me some weird stuff and asked for evidence based care, how dare they, but anyway, I did it, blah, blah, blah, you know, no one died. But it really just reinforced to me, I've been doing this work for 10 years. Right? I'm a very confident person. I am confident in speaking, I'm confident in overcoming difficult conversations, you know, like I'm, I'm able to be level headed and able to communicate in a way that's aligned with my values. And how easy was when there was a power imbalance for me to almost become this kind of sniffling apologetic? That that's not very charitable towards me, it's not very kind to call myself sniffling. But how quickly? I tried to minimize myself versus just being like, This is it? Because I have not done a lot of this stuff with healthcare providers, because my old doctor was just absolutely awful. I would barely say anything to her because she was just so bad. So there was not a chance in hell, I would ever have a conversation with her. When I would go into the clinic and the person taking me to the room would be like, Let's weigh you, I'd say, oh, no, thanks. But that was like, you know, someone else. It was a different power dynamic there. So anyway, so I'm saying all this is I want you to share this story. But also, if you are, are doing this and advocating for yourself, and you're feeling like oh, like, oh, I can't do it. I'm too scared. I get it. I feel I don't, I don't always get it. Because you have might have different identities for me. But I understand. I mean, I've always known that it's everyone's different. But just remember, just think if I found it hard, and I've been doing this, this is my job. I've been doing this for 10 years, if I found it hard, and my pulse rate quickened. And you're berating yourself because you maybe forgot what to say or you didn't do it or whatever. Please don't. Because this stuff is difficult. I are all right, good. But, you know, Reagan chair Stein has has courses and also the fact Dr. Asha lomi has stuff like advocating for yourself at the doctor so you know, go and take their stuff and if that's helpful for you, and sometimes it's just safer just not say anything, you know, like with me, my Oh Dr. If I said oh, you know, she felt like she'd like shut up. I hate you anyway, so I felt it was a positive it was a positive experience, by the way talking to the talking to that nurse practitioner and I think that we're going to develop a really good relationship where it can continue maybe increasing my safety by advocating for myself. And hopefully then as I continue to practice that in healthcare setting, it will become easier is my is my theory. Okay, so anyway, number two, I'm sorry, I'm just being good. Bloody rambling. Oh, and I'm and I on this podcast. I hope that's okay. And you just like hanging out with me? No matter what I see for maybe somebody who's new to the podcast is like for fucksakes Shut up. Wow, I'm really projecting. I was just like, oh, the doctor says Shut up. And then the listeners say shut up. Listen, I'm just going to be myself. tell you stories randomly. Okay, so the six ways hitting my body almost ruin my life or restrict food and eating disorder disordered eating. Next, a gigantic portion of my mental energy was spent on thinking about how I looked, and working out how to disguise my fatness from others. I got to events late or not at all after changing outfits multiple times, only to feel terrible, in them all that mental energy on us to learn. It was a full time job thinking about what my body looked like and what food I was allowed to eat allowed in quotations that is tiring, and is really tiring. And the distress of putting on outfits and just being like, Oh, it doesn't look right. Pulling out another outfit. No, this doesn't look right. either. I don't feel good. And then putting out another outfit and just look at the time I need to go on let's try the first one again. And oh, just I can just feel that in my chest. That anxiety. I remember driving to a friend's house and just crying and my partner at the time was just like what what's what's what's wrong with you? And I was just like, I just don't feel good. It was just it made the whole thing where I was like, I don't even want to go. I do not want to go because of how I feel about what I look and I know so many people have experienced that. Or you know, the whole time just thinking like, I just looked so unattractive compared to everyone else and oh, like pulling my tugging at my clothes to make sure it hides my fatness when I mean I have a whole hour podcast episode which is funny ways I used to describe disguise my my dad used to disguise I used to try to disguise my fat body funny ways. I used to try to disguise my fat body. And honestly, I thought I was fucking an illusionist, David Copperfield is that the name of that that American magician, whatever, Penn and Teller. I thought I was doing some magic tricks. By doing things like I would go to the store and purposefully buy clothes that were too small but had stretching them so that I could wear something was that was like a medium or a large in the hopes that my label might stick out. And then someone might walk by see that label and be like, Oh, an M Hmm. My eyes told me they were fat. But I was wrong that they're wearing a t shirt which is which is size M even though I can see that it's busting at the seams and clearly too small for them. But no, I was wrong. They're actually a thin person. That's what I thought would happen. Or I would eat eat cereal with a teaspoon. I don't know why because this doesn't make it's not logically making sense. Surely if you ate with a huge spoon or ladle you Syria with a ladle, it would make your body look bigger. But my logic was eating with a small spoon looked like made it look like that I was so dainty, and tiny. I can only possibly fit one cheerio in my mouth at

a time. That was my that was my thinking that someone would see that small spoon and be like wow, that is a tiny person using a tiny spoon to eat them one cheerio Wow, my eyes were telling me they were fat but now I've seen that spoon a you a tiny little supermodel as you are Oh my goodness. There's a whole episode about those those silly little things that I would do. And you know I'm saying silly but you know it's very it's obviously that was very painful for me at the time and deeply embarrassing and shameful and, and now I'm looking back and just being like, what was I thinking? And you know this humor there. And there's also a ton of pain and I'm sure there's lots of things that you could probably think of of ways that you might have tried to disguise your, your your body that maybe were nonsensical. Maybe they maybe weren't nonsensical, I don't know. So next one, I was afraid of looking silly or unattractive, I would hide myself figuratively. And literally, I didn't want to be in pictures or be seen in a swimsuit, for example, I missed out on so many joyful moments, and was erase from memories because I didn't want to be perceived as my genuine as a as my genuine self, a fat person. So yeah, that's a huge one for a lot of people is not being in pictures. And I just really think you're erased from history. Because you, especially if you have children. And even if you don't, we look at photos. And we're like, oh, yeah, and obviously, sometimes we don't need photos. But if you have photos from when you were a kid, you would look at those photos, and you might not have any memory of the event, but you have a memory of the photo. And if, say your mum was not in any of those pictures, because she thought she didn't look good. That's so sad. You're literally being erased from that memory of the photo or, or the, the the experience to be seen, and it makes sense. Like if you're struggling with body image, or anti fatness that you don't want to be seen, because you see yourself as bad or less than or unattractive. And you're thinking, I'll be in the photo when I'm thin. But then you already have photos of if you are in the photo when you're new and you have photos that are not representative of the true your true self. Like I have photos of me when I'm thin and I just think, Oh, it's so sad. I was so you know, proud of myself for being thin. So I'm not looking back on those photos being like, Oh, look at me, I was so good looking. I'm thinking, oh, I want to go and give you a hug. There's a picture of me at the counter of a kebab shop after bid on a night out and I was drunk. And I'm smiling and I'm like, thin. And I remember being in that kebab shop and be and thinking I'm not ordering a kebab. No way I think I got just chips or something. And then it would have been like, well, you know, I've blown the diet. And I've already blown the diet because I've drunk alcohol and that's so many points. So I wasn't thinking and all my friends are around me and I'm so I'm not meant remembering all of the wonderful times. laughing with my friends. I'm thinking what I was thinking at the time, which was this is an anxiety inducing moment. But I'm also proud to show my thin body and I was proud at the time when I looked at the picture being like, Oh, you can see my jawline, but now I'm over that stuff. I'm like, Oh, that's so sad. I would love if I had pictures of me in my all my fatness, all my unattractive angles. Because I know I'd look back and just be like, Oh, you little QEII Well, I wouldn't have if I was still an anti fatness, I'd be like, Oh God, but I really just look back now with like, such compassion of who I was and who I am. Okay, next, I accepted terrible behavior from others. I was abused homeless and had awful jobs, surface level friendships. I tolerated dismal romantic partners, one who said he wasn't attracted to me as much because I gained a few pounds and another who laughed at my body. I didn't believe I was worth more because I was fat. So I accepted those. Those dynamics, my romantic partners. Honestly, I always just thought well, I'm lucky to have them. Yeah, they might be a giant dickhead. But what else I'm not gonna get anyone like them again. As in someone who tolerates a fat person and I'm just like, oh, now I'm just like no no, please don't accept that shitty babe. You know? And that was just that was you know from from everyone right? And if I had to go back 1015 20 years ago and be friends with myself and my group of friends that I had at that time. I would not have fun because all we like all will be talking about is oh my god what diet Have you tried? And how many calories does this thing have? And what do I look like? And am I as soon as that person on my bigger than that person? Oh my god. Did you see what so and so was wearing? be so boring. And so that's my next point is I bonded by gossiping. I wasn't exactly fun to be around. All I wanted to talk about was dieting, gossiping about other people's bodies who didn't adhere to beauty standards that I thought were acceptable. I was so passionately angry about certain things that women were doing that I perceived as unattractive or bad, I will just be disgusted by them. I was so judgmental, like, for example, tattoos. Now I read it. Now I really want a tattoo. I've been thinking about it for years. But when I was younger, I'd be like that disgusting. Who would ever have attacked this just, if I was forced, I remember having a conversation with someone that we were saying, if we were forced, by, you know, by threat of death to have a tattoo, we'd have a.on the bottom of our soul. And that would be it. And now I'm just like, judgmental, much like, I just really, you know, or people wearing certain things, you know, dressing in certain ways. I would thought that was not my fashion sense, but I would be so angry about it. And venomous because I hate myself that was all the venom that I was getting from anti fatness and, and beauty standards that I wasn't able to meet myself. And so I put down other people, because it made me feel ever so slightly better. I'm not one of those people that has a tattoo. And now I'm like, oh my god, I love your tattoos. You know, and if someone has a tattoo that I just I don't think is the greatest who the fuck cares. I don't care what the phone is none of my business doesn't make them feel good. Whatever, I'm just wouldn't fun to be around that much. I probably was sometimes but you know, I wasn't a terrible person. I don't know, maybe it was. But it was a boho ring. Okay, finally, my life goals revolved around weight loss or attempting to attain beauty. I dreamed about the day that I would be, quote, fit enough to wear a bikini or certain clothes size, clothes sizes, clothes, sizes, clothes sizes. Other life aspirations was secondary thinness was the ultimate goal. Thinness was the ultimate goal that was the pinnacle of humaneness, you could not say anything to me, if I had reached that goal of fitness, because the way that I looked at it, it was like get to the level of fitness, then you could unlock all of these other life achievements, get to fitness, then you can be an astronaut, get to fineness, then you could be a celebrity get to fineness, then you could have an amazing partner get to thin you know, so get to thinness was the the, the thing I needed to get to in order to start my life, and continue on with my life, you know, be an astronaut or have a partner that's kind to me or wear a bikini, I couldn't see that that was possible, unless I hit this first achievement. So all of those other achievements were tertiary, because this is the only thing that mattered. You know, I couldn't fathom that those other things could be done in a fat body. Or if they were it was like I was No, it was like I was driving a car. But I'd never had a No, I've never passed my driving test. Or I'd never learned how to drive a car. I was just driving the car. And so you know that you'd be driving the car really shitty. So you know, those goals. If you did meet those goals of having of being an astronaut, you are a shitty astronaut, because you had a bigger body. So think about the Think about the energy if you've achieved other things in your life, the energy that takes it takes to achieve something really big. Like for me, like the My biggest achievement, I perceive the biggest the highlight one of the hardest things is my TEDx talk. It was it took a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot a lot. And I think becoming thin, temporarily. took more, it did it took more effort and consistency and constant thought and action

for a long time, to become temporarily thin. That it was more effort than to do my TEDx, which was a huge effort. It took my TEDx the whole process was a year process and it was just massive. It was massive. And so what have I got to show for the amount of effort I put in with being temporarily thin is a disordered eating. body hates gobs of shame because then when I stopped being temporarily, I'd say I say thin but uh, you know, I wasn't thin, thin, thin, thin, which is, you know, because we're never thin enough. Are we? Right? Yeah. The, the amount of efforts for what for what Why, but then the amount of effort I put into my TEDx. Now I have a TEDx. I have something to show for it. And a real tangible thing that I'm proud of. And yeah, fuck, I was proud of being temporarily thin when I was temporarily thin and then I ended and, you know, then I was like, embarrassed. I used to be temporary thing. And now look at me. I'm a murse Yeah, so fun. Fun, fun, fun. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So what it looks like now what it looks like now. And now that I've, I've spent a lot of time and learning this bullshit, and not just anti fat stuff. Like I've I've spent a lot of time in therapy and learning different systems of oppression. And I can tell like, I feel like anti fatness. Obviously, I've worked on the most, I've worked on the most, but it's all interconnected. And I also still have a ton of work to do when it comes to other systems of oppression. Because I know that they're affecting me, and they are harming me, and I'm therefore harming others, because I have not yet understood and unlearned completely, you know, racism, or ableism, or you know, etc, etc, right? So, maybe in 10 years time, I'll be like, Oh, this is 10 years ago, you'll never guess what I was doing. But it's, you know, anti fat bias is not a standalone topic. It's, it's, it's intersectional. And the more that you unlearn other systems of oppression, the more that all areas of your life and humanity is better, right, so. Okay, so after learning on after working on AI learning and learning anti fat bias, I don't think about food much. Aside from Oh, it's lunch, I should guess I should eat or enjoying food that I like, without guilt or feeling like I'm out of control, or, you know, food is just not quote a thing for me anymore. When I say our thing, I mean, like an issue, like it's a thing because obviously I ate food to survive, and I enjoy food and, and sometimes I might eat more food than my body wants. And, but if that happens, I'm just like, oh, obviously, I was, you know, really enjoying that food or, or obviously, I needed that for whatever reason. So versus being like, Oh God, I'm such a bad person. I feel like my tummies is fuller than is slightly comfortable. But I never know. I so clearly remember that feeling of eyes opening being like food. You know, almost like the Terminator, you know, like, ah, laser eyes red beams being like, track the food, you know? Because I was so deprived. I was so deprived. I was so mentally and physically hungry. Thank fuck, my brain did that for me. My brain was like, we need to survive. Okay, listen, you didn't eat any up enough food yesterday. So this morning, first thing we're doing? I'm gonna tell you remind you this ding dong is not eating food. Come on. It's some food. Look, we're putting all our energy to get some food. And so then I open my eyes would be like, my brain would like, eat some food, get some good, go get some food for fuck sake, get some food. And I'm like, I'm so greedy. Look at me. All I think about is food and my brain like Firefox like, yeah, no wonder you only think about food because we're starving, give us some food. And then I'd pathologize myself being like, I'm addicted to food. And my brain were like, Ah, you're not addicted to food, just feed as an hour, chill out. And now because I've fed us my brain body, my brains like, Oh, you don't need to remind this, this silly idiot that that they need to eat all the time. You know, unless they forget because of midnight. They're deep in work or ADHD and then I'll feel it in my my body. But you know, there's different for Neuro. It's different for different neurodivergent people. A lot of times I forget to eat lunch. I think if it wasn't for Google my dog, I would forget to eat lunch quite regularly. But do Google bless him or love him. He comes to me if it gets too late. If it gets to 2pm He'll come to me and stare at me and gently tap his feet. He doesn't eat anything at lunchtime, his his dinner is morning and night. But he will say excuse me, it's time for you to get up and will harass me. When I say harass. Look at me and gently tap his fee until I get up and have lunch but that would be different before because I was always overriding my neuro divergence. And the reason why why I forget to like use neuro neuro divergence. It's not because I'm like I'm so chill around food. It's neuro divergence. But my desperate need for food, that push that drive in my brain overcame the neurodivergent urge to forget about eating. That there's no way that I could forget. Because I was that like deep in restrictive eating. The over, like the drive was so much that you know, my neuro divergent was was like neuro divergence was like getting this fish to eat. Okay, so next what I wear or how I look at doesn't often come into my head aside from Oh, I think I look cute today, or, Oh, I should wash my hair tonight. Or, oh, did a bird just poo on my back? So pretty much the only time I would change an outfit is because it was not right for the weather or art or activity. And I and it's not that I'm like, Oh, I just don't look good in it. I would you know what happens? You know, what happens is, if I look in the mirror, and I have a little like, I don't think I look really cute. Because no, most of the time I'm like, You're cute. That's my reaction. Most of the time, I'm just gonna just be like, you just know, you're just such a cute II. And if I don't have that reaction, I'll be like, No, so someone's someone's brain is, is having some feelings here, what is going on? And verb, so I wouldn't be like, there's something wrong with the way I look or the clothes I'm wearing, it would be something is happening in my brain for me to not correctly perceive myself. And so I would be like, Okay, so let me support my mental health in this moment. And I will recognize that something else is going on, it's not my body, it's not that my body in the last 24 hours has suddenly turned into an attractive body, it's that my perception of my body is changed because I feel like after decades of my brain, using my body as a easy way for me to try and manage my emotions, like pick on their body, because we might get our needs met is kind of some sort of like what my brain was thinking but my needs were not being met by changing my body, I needed to do other work deeper work to to fix that. So I feel like sometimes my brain might slip into something is feeling a bit shit about our life. So that's, that's a trend trying to attack the body, see if that gets our needs met. And because now I'm like, I'm not engaging in that. That's not how we get our needs met. I'm talking to my like, my internal family system, my in my dog into myself, basically. What how can we meet my needs? And so what I might do is I be like, Okay, well, I'll put some dry shampoo in my hair. Like today. I was like, oh, I need to wash my hair tonight. And I want to look, I want to look cute for the podcast. I was like, okay, so how am I gonna go get my needs met? I'm going to put some dry shampoo in my hair. Okay, and do Colonel corners, okay. And now I'm, I'm cute. I'm cute. I'm gonna put some of that summer scar around, and I feel cute, you know? Or it could be that might be in and that's focusing on body, but then it could be I do something else, you know, can be on like, oh, you know, Qd? Like, what's wrong? What's wrong? How can we support you? Do you need to like, do you need to take it slow today? Do you need to talk to someone, you know, and some most of the time just recognizing, ah, this thing is happening. And honestly, it's this is just doesn't just doesn't happen that much. You know, sometimes I'm like, I need to be looking in the mirror more because sometimes I look in the mirror and I'm like, oh shit, like, I needed to moisturize my face today. And I didn't even like notice because I'm not looking in the mirror at all. Not that having dry skin is is terrible sin or anything, but you know. Yeah. It's just my body's there. And I like it. And I think I look cute most of the time and Nbd no bad girl. Okay, next one I wear or how I look.

I just read that one. So, if you know me, if you listen to the podcast for a while, you know that I don't give a fuck about looking like a giant dingling. Before I would be wanting to curate the way that others were perceiving me. So now I am able to work to be my authentic self. And it's and it's so freeing to practice being my authentic self. It's a practice. This is a process that is is is I think maybe the hardest for me. Because in therapy, the word that always comes up I need to get up I can tattoo of this world. Troublemaker, troublemaker. Don't be too weird. Don't be too big. Don't be a troublemaker. Don't ask for what you need. It's just an ongoing thing that I'm still working on is working on being my authentic self, and learning who I really am. And so I've learned so much in the recent years of, I've worked out that I'm non binary, I've worked out that I'm queer, I've worked out I'm not, I'm neurodivergent. And I feel like I have more ways of I'm disabled. I've there's so many more ways I don't yet know myself. And so the more I'm practicing, being my authentic self will naturally make barriers appear. Because when you're being expansive in your identity, you're brushing up against your own kind of barriers of like, Oh, don't do that, like, be queer, but, but don't be too queer. Like, be fat, but don't like be too fat. Be, you know, just be a respectable version of that thing. And my authentic self is not the respectable version. It's my authentic version. It's the weird, you know, silly billy. Ding, ding a ling. Ding dong. Yeah. So that's a practice, but a lot of the times are like, I don't give a fuck, I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck about doing things in public for sure. You know, I wonder if there are things that I wouldn't want to do. You know what? Maybe I'm what I wouldn't what I'm not ready for yet is like just being completely naked in public. Now. Actually, no, I would do that. I would do that. Yeah, it feels like a photo shoot or something. No, I would. Yeah. But I wouldn't do it if I was just on my own. I mean, like that. I mean, I guess that's a stretch, right? Like, I mean, why would I be just walking around naked in public, I would be arrested. But I guess in Vancouver, it's legal to have to display your nipples, no matter your gender. So I could be going around with my tats out if I want it to never seen anyone do it. So I'm just, I'm probably not minimizing myself by not doing it. And also, I don't necessarily want to do that. Yeah, anyway. Okay. Next, I have wonderful relationships with people who love you like me because of who I am, and not contingent on my weights. And also, I'm a better friend, because I'm not judging other people on what they look like. And I'm able to navigate relationship challenges and not just accept less, because I feel unworthy. I'm in relationship with relationships with people because I genuinely like them. And not because I feel like I can't do better. I was telling my friend last night, I had a call with my Australian friend Maddie. And I was telling her about, about 15 1015 years ago, I had a friend. I was in love with this guy, right? And we I was friends with this guy, but I wanted more. And we would like mess a bow. And he he it was clearly like we were we were basically in a relationship. But I don't know. It was weird. Basically, he obviously just didn't like me enough to be want to be in a relationship with me, but would like, get the other benefits. Anyway, so one of my friends who was like a friend, like a friend of a friend, but then she became a friend. One day, she came around my house and she was like, ERG is who I had sex with. And I was like, Oh my God, tell me who and she's like, this person. This this guy that I was in love with? My friend was like, oh, so So did you like confront her and stuff? And I was like, No, I just ghosted her. I just never spoke to her again. And we spend the evening together. And I was in my brain seething. But I didn't say what the fuck? Because I was like, I couldn't do it. I couldn't I couldn't navigate a challenge in the relationship. I mean, the relationship would have ended, you know, even now, if that happened to me, I'd be like, Whoa, what is going on? That's really inappropriate. And anyway, so. But I just ghosted her. Now, I'm going to an event and I know she's going to be there. And it's an quite an involved event. And I'm like, Oh, what am I? What am I gonna do? And so I'm like, I'm gonna talk to her about it. versus my old self would have been like, Well, I'm just going to ignore her. And ignoring her might be the right strategy. But I've decided my strategy is, if it feels appropriate, and it feels safe, and it feels like it's beneficial. I'm going to say, Hey, do you remember why? You remember, we used to hang out a lot. And now we don't. And this is why but depends. It depends. It depends. But I mean, that comes with general confidence, not not not necessarily unlearning anti fat bias, but my relationships are not based on gossiping about others, and what they look like, and what weight they used to be, what weight they've lost and who's failed on the diet or whatever. So the next point is I don't talk about other people's bodies. I don't care what someone looks like, if they wear Crocs or if they're fat or straight sized ones, I don't care. I probably do care. Like if I see someone and they've got An amazing outfit on I moved by their amazing outfit and then embodying fabulousness. Like I would be like, I care because I'm enjoying my eyeballs are enjoying someone feeling like they look good, like so like I care in that way, but I'm not like, I'm not gonna be friends it sounds like because they're like they were like, embarrassing clothes

Yeah, I don't bond by gossiping anymore. I bond with people on shared interests, laughing and giving excellent trashy TV recommendations. And you know what, when I decided that I'm not going to bond on on gossiping anymore, I lost a couple of friendships because I realized we had nothing in common. All we would do is get together and be like, Ah, did you see what sounds like posted on Facebook? Oh, can you believe it? You know, and then we'd be friends with so and so. Oh, my God, what is she wearing? You know, and so when I was when I when I decided that in therapy, I was just like, Oh, shit. We don't actually like each other that much. We both, but we're just both so deeply into gear. You know, that's what we've got in common. And so the friendships drifted apart because of that. And finally, my goals include thing that things that enrich me and others. So meaningful things, fun things, I have the energy to grow in life, because my brain is not consumed with thinking about my body. And food. Also, I know I don't need to actually have goals in order to prove that I'm a good person or, quote, make up for my ugly body. That was a big thing is is okay, my goal was is to be thin. I couldn't achieve that goal. Okay, so I can't achieve that goal. So I'm going to try and prove to other people through my hard work that if I can't be thin, I can be a hard worker, I can engage in capitalism. Like the best of them. I, I am good. I am good in these ways. I'm a good fatty. You know, I eat salads, and I exercise and I work really hard. And I'm a good partner and lalalalala. Now, I'm just like, you know, what's really, I think tied in with anti fatness that I'm unlearning a lot I'm pushing myself on a lot currently is is ableism and capitalism of working hard, and encouraging others not to work hard. I felt a little bit triggered. I felt a little bit like an feeling came up. I was talking to two interns. I was consulting for this business. And they had two interns and we were meeting for the first time. And I said to the interns like, oh, when can you have this thing ready? And one of them said, Oh, well, I guess I can work over the weekend and have it done for next week. And I said, Absolutely not. I don't want you working over the weekend. No working late. You know, I don't want any of this like, work as little as possible. And then I said it to those two interns. And I said it to the other intern as well. And I was just like, Oh, I hope you're not working. Don't worry too much. Don't worry too much. I went too late. And afterwards, I was like, I was feeling away. I was feeling I was fake. I was like, Oh, am I displaying like I'm such a lazy fat person. Like a feeling came up of? Yeah, look at you lazy fat person. And I was like, oh, brain. Interesting. Before I wouldn't have said don't work, you know, I would have been like, Well, no, because you know, I work. I work over the weekend. Yeah, because fat people were just like, really hard workers. And that was safety. Right? So I'm not saying that that was like a bad thing to do. Because I was creating safety for myself, right? And so if you're doing that, then you know if that works for you, and that creates safety, then that's a perfect technique and tactic. But now I realize I don't want to engage in good fatty stereotypes. tropes. I don't want to prove I don't want to engage. I don't want to prove that I'm a good person by engaging in, in capitalism by engaging in unhealthy ism and racism and etc, etc. Right? I just want to give myself permission to rest and do what I need to do to serve me and serve others. Like I felt like I wanted to teach the interns that being overworking is not you know, I'm not going to be saying to them. You're such a good person because you overworked or you worked over the weekends, but it's complicated. It's complex, complicated. It's kind of like a heads sometimes isn't that that's not possible for many different reasons. So yeah, so how is focusing on body size and dieting affected your Life. What do you think? Maybe you want to write down some things of like, maybe some things are still affecting your life, I find this, like important for me is trying to work out how things are affecting me so that I can create meaningful, got goals around. making those changes, if it feels good for me that works for my brain is making goals around that. So that might be helpful for you or not, whatever. You do what you want, right? Yeah, so my training that I've got coming up in a couple of weeks, so which it will be done by the time you'll listen to this podcast, but you can get the replay. It's called How to unlearn weight bias and be at peace with your body and others bodies, bodies. And so if you want 50% off price, use a code special 50. So that's a 50% off price that contributes towards economic justice. So if you feel like you're someone that deserves economic justice, we all do. But if you would like that 50% off price, use a code 50 special I'll put the link for that. doobly doo in in the show notes. So there you go. There you have it. There you have it. There's there's six things. I'm always like, I want you to tell me I want you to talk to me. What's your experiences? You can't talk back I'm just doing a recording on my own that you know, I've got this workshop coming up. So I can ask people I can ask people we can have we can have. We're gonna have chinwag so I love talking and hearing other people's experiences. You know why is because so many people are like, yes, that's my experience. Yes, me too. Yes. You know, many people whose experiences are super common, and it's nice to know that you're not alone in in this bullshit. Okay, thanks for hanging out with me today. I hope you have an enjoyable summer if it's summer where you are. And if you feel like supporting the podcast, you can go to cofee make a $5 hair donation, and you'll get the size diversity Resource Guide which is so fucking good. It's so good. It's got like, if you want more fat stuff in your life, it's got you know, hundreds of Instagram accounts or follow TEDx talks, books, things to watch where to shop science is so there's so much in there, there's so much and it's really good. So you can get that for $5 I'm gonna put the, the this guide the guide that I just created the report I just created. I'm gonna put that as a you can choose to donate if you if you want to. But you can also get it for free. But I am going to put that as a perk on the $5. Tia as well. So you can get that as well. Is my plans is my plans is my plans for the future. And if you would like to meet a Briton me to come into your workplace and do some training on anti fat bias, then just reach out to me send me an email and we can book a discovery call for 30 minutes to have a chinwag about what you would like to achieve and see if see if I can help you. Yeah, I did a training a few weeks ago, which was a couple of months ago plus which was just 15 minutes long. So I mean, we can do 15 minutes to five hours, six hours all day. Whatever, whatever you would like. Okay, thanks for hanging out with me today. Remember you are worthy you always were you always will be. Remember to stay fierce, fatty.

Episode 188 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Anti-fat bias in the workplace with personal experiences and a citizenship ceremony. 0:00

• Body size, marginalized identities, and survey data. 6:00

• Workplace discrimination against fat individuals, with 76.8% reporting yes. 11:04

• Anti-fatness in the workplace, including personal stories and experiences. 16:05

• Anti-fat bias in the workplace. 20:51

• Weight-related experiences in the workplace. 28:45

• Body shaming, diet culture, and trauma. 34:12

• Weight-related stigmas and body shaming in a workplace setting. 38:37

• Body shaming and stigma in medical settings. 43:09

• Weight-related challenges in the workplace. 48:25

• Workplace wellness initiatives and body shaming. 54:39

• Body shaming, size inclusivity, and customer interactions in various industries. 58:44

• Anti-fat bias and its impact on marginalized communities. 1:03:14

• Fat positivity, inclusive workplaces, and anti-fat bias training. 1:08:58

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 188 fat at work stories. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let’s do it.

Vinny Welsby 0:26

Hello, welcome to this episode sorry, we're a week or two late I have ADHD, as you might know, listen to the show. And with a monthly podcast schedule, I'm out of amount of out of the rhythm of making one a week. And so I have a reminder to record a podcast, but I just I must have seen it and just totally missed it. And then last week, I was like, I'm recording a podcast in like, a month. Shouldn't I do but we're doing it soon. And I was like, oh, yeah, I should have done it last week. So sorry for the delay. I've been getting up to some stuff, some stuff. As you might have noticed, I've been focusing on on some work you very workI stuffy type of stuff. With my weight inclusive consulting. And I did a survey I'm doing a survey. And it's about it's called anti fat bias in the workplace survey. So far, we've had 327 responses, which is amazing. So it's been out for about a couple of weeks. And in it, it's asking only fat people to tell us about their experiences in the workplace. And boy, oh, my lord, a huge trigger warning. If you don't want to hear about people's experiences of anti fat bias in the workplace, and people what bosses are getting up to what mentions of eating disorders, comments, or hearing what the comments people have have experienced, which are egregious. What else just asked all types of shit. If you're not in the mood for all types of nasty anti fat bias shifts, then this episode, if you want to, if you want to feel like you're within the community, and you're sharing experiences, and you want to hear some stories and and have your mouth, your jaw hang open from horror, and your eyes pop out with unbelievable surprise, as if you have eyes and a mouth. Or let your brain do that, then, then this is the this is the episode for you. Hey, guess what? Guess what I did today. I've been in Canada for 15 years. And this morning, I had my citizenship ceremony. And so I'm almost officially a Canadian citizen. Yeah. So almost a fish I don't know, I think I think I am. They just say afterwards, you have to sign a form. And then you get your certificates. And if you don't sign the form, then I'll sign the form and send it off. So it's always like, am I am I am I gonna throw me out. But it was really, it was really sweet to see all the other immigrants there was about it was about we did a virtual ceremony. There was I think, about 150 people on a zoom call. And a lot of people had like, decorated the back of it, like the you could see behind them like Canadian flags, and they're waving flags, and there were people with babies and kids and they were excited and and actually, my eyeballs got another moist because they weren't they there was a video showing about you know, proud to be a Canadian and then like indigenous stuff and and it said welcome home. And I was like I have my stable. My sidewall alert. Because it's, I really love I'd really do love living here. And it's taken me so long to do this citizenship thing because of my neuro divergence. It seemed like an impossible dream, like an impossible feat. And it wasn't it was because someone at my choir was like, why don't you just do the application by December just do it by the end of the year and I was like okay, I'll just do that and she'd like kind of told me about her experience and it seemed like and you could do it online and and that's the only reason I did it is because I had someone kind of He's helping me through. I had someone to help me through before actually, I'd applied before. And they were helping me through and then I'd sent everything off. And they came back saying, we need originals of your passport. And I was like, what the fuck I'm, and then anyway, then then my apartment flooded and the application got kind of wet. And I was like, no brain shut down cannot cannot continue with the application. And that was like, maybe six years ago and I was like, I can't, I can't I started the application. But I can't I cannot continue because else's barrier that seemed insurmountable, which was to send my passport. And this time, they didn't ask for the original passport, I don't think. But anyway, anyway, it's done. I'm very proud of myself, and very happy. And so now I have a Canadian passport and a British passport. And then at some point, I'll get an Irish passport because my mum's Irish. Because the UK is not part of the EU, which is so embarrassing. Oh, anyway, if you're watching on video, you can always watch the, the the show on YouTube. If you've if you're someone like rosacea, like me, I just put on some, there's a medication called unreality or unreal tear, or I don't know how you pronounce it, I just put it on my, my my right cheek because it's burning up. And so it takes half an hour to work. So during the podcast, you can watch and see if my cheek slowly turns less scarlet red, to see if it's if it works, and how much it works. If you're interested in trying to medication. Obviously, I'm totally different human. But if you heard me or interested, a little study for you. What it is, is just a cream that stops like it's shrinks the blood vessels on your face temporarily. So anyway, anyway, let's talk about people's stories. So we've got a ton of data, or if you are someone who doesn't say that data, so we've got lots of data 327 people have shared their stories and who there's, it's interesting, it's interesting that what I've done is I have separated it it by different marginalized identities, and I can see the ways that I can make this better next time. Like I asked people do you? Are you in a bigger body? Or have you been in the bigger body previously? And I think next time I'd want to know what sighs body, I wanted to make the survey a little bit shorter. But I was just like, oh, I have to add this question. It's essential. I need this question. This question. I was like, Oh, I don't want it. That'd be a barrier. You know, there'll be 40 questions, and people say fuck that. So there's 12 questions. So I think next time, I will take out a couple of questions and put in put in a different one. Another question, which would be what is your size? Anyway, so 98.5% of the 327 people said, they're currently in a bigger body. And then five people said that they are in a smaller body now, but used to have a bigger body. Isn't that interesting? How 98.5% Isn't that very similar to the diet failure rate. Not saying that any of these be these people who've been on a diet, but I just thought that was kind of interesting. The average person who took age it was 30 to 39. So that was 44%. And then 40 to 49 was 30%. And then 20 to 29 was 15%. Most people come from the US and Canada that took the survey, let's give you some numbers. And some numbers, I made a mistake of saying Where do you currently live and just let people type it out. And you know, the amount of different variations of the US or the US US u dot S U S A U S of America, United States. So that is like multiple, multiple, multiple different things anyway. We had 192 People from the US 39 from the UK 100 And I'm just wondering where that 100 night from us and it from us. 54 Canada 10, Australia, Germany six, Netherlands three, Wales two, and we have people from India, Finland, Denmark, Argentina, Belgium, Italy, Northern Ireland, Spain, Sweden. So we had a cross section of Have not a good cross section of moderate cross section of countries. So, do you have other marginalized identities aside from being fat? Most people, most people said that they were women 89% Then we had 44% saying that they're neurodivergent 39 said 39% said that they're queer.

Vinny Welsby 10:25

So that's lesbian, gay, asexual, etc. 24% said that they're disabled. 13% said that they were lower economic status 5.3% said that they were related racialized. So that's a big, missing demographic there is racialized, or equity deserving race or ethnicity. Vote. So people like black Latinx, Latin, a Asian, indigenous, etc. So that's who is missing in a big way from this, this information. But we do have stories. So what type of Okay, so? Have you experienced discrimination at work due to your size? The answers are yes, no, we're not sure. 76.8% said yes, that they've experienced discrimination or bias because of their size at work. 18% said not sure. And 4.9% said, No. Now we have seen in previous studies on what percentage of people have experienced bias, around about 40% of people said that they've experienced bias. Now that is in life, and then others are in health care. This one is specifically at work. And this is people who are in my audience. And so in my audience, you are probably more aware of what anti fat bias is. And so I noticed that a lot of people who were saying No, I haven't experienced bias or discrimination. The next question was, What things have you experienced, they ticked off lots of things, which was discrimination and bias. And so I was like, okay, so I wonder if they were they were thinking, Oh, these things aren't discrimination or bias. And I wonder if because we've got 76%, almost 77% of people saying that they have experienced bias in the workplace. That number is so high. Because you all know what that looks like. And I wonder actually, if the reality is is actually higher, because you know, that 18% saying not sure. And then most of them are saying, so 60 People said, not sure. And then the next question, I said, what type of discrimination or bias did you experience. And so of those 660 people, only 12 said, I didn't experience bias, but the rest of them continued and checked off lots of different things, ways that they have experienced bias. So then only a third of them from that, from that section. have said that they didn't experience any any of the following things. So I find that kind of interesting. A lot of this is kind of guessing what people are thinking, but then we've got stories, right? So I'm going to tell you the stories too, so don't worry, we've got stories. Okay, so what type of discrimination or bias did you experience by the way, I just didn't I didn't even tell you what the heck I'm doing with this survey. Obviously, I'm sharing you some some bits of information. But I'm actually creating this into a huge weight inclusive consulting report, which will share all this information and stories probably not as many stories that I'm going to share like all of them in the in an index you know, at the back just being like his all 300 Plus stories If people are interested in reading them, because I know a lot of people would be because I I am interested in reading them. But I'm going to make it into a into a document so that organizations can have that in, you know, the HR team, the diversity team, company leaders, anyone who wants to use that information to advocate for fat liberation to advocate for treating fat people like no human being through change. It's so strange. So the biggest thing that the number one thing that people experienced, what type of discrimination 87% said diet talk in the office. I should have that word that that different means that a diet talk in the office. I should have just said diet talk. So diet talk 294 People said Yep, experience that the next popular one was body size ignored in diversity, equity and inclusion training. The one after that is open discussion slash talk where people share anti fat views. And the next one is quote unquote, wellness initiatives. And then we have exercise challenge. Seating not inclusive, no policies to protect me from discrimination. 21 People said that they've been denied a point in employment 51 People said that they were not promoted. So that's six per 6.5%, denied employment, not promoted as 15.7% paid less 13.8% 45 people fired. Seven people were fired, or disciplined for being fat or higher weight and a bigger body. So there's lots of different other options. So we'll share that on the survey, but they're the big ones. And I think that's a huge thing is the diet talk and the anti fatness, it's so normalized is like breathing in some of these offices in some of these work places. It just really is so normalized. And a lot of times people are saying sitting down to lunch, sitting down to lunch was really traumatizing, because that's all people spoke about was food. Just you know, so many so many responses, just saying that that is just the the rhetoric. And so I think that that's a really important thing that we need to change, we need to make it so that people know that it is taboo to start talking about food and losing weight in the workplace. Or know that there's going to be consequences, right. So let's get into some stories. And then we'll get back to some more stats because we've got stories. And so we've organized them by theme. And honestly, this has been so difficult, because every one that I read, I'm like, oh my god, we need to include this. And the next one, I'm like, Oh, my God, we need to include this, we need to, and this, this one, this one, this one, this one, I'm like, we can't have 327 or whatever stories. Because they will be we'll be here all day. But they're all so valuable. And it's so hard to pick, which are the most powerful or you know, that will have the biggest impact on people and help change things. Right. So I've tried, I've tried, but again, I think I'm gonna include every single story in the back of the report. So, you know, everyone's voices heard because I think that's that's important. Okay, so why do we wish we start? Where should we start? You know, what I'm going to start with? There's some just general stories that I just thought they can fit a few different categories, but I think they're just you know, want to hear these experiences. Okay, so the question that was in the survey, the people are answering this question. What was your experience of anti fatness in the workplace? share as much or as little as you like, I'll share your specific stories anonymously. Okay, so people have, you know, lots of space to write and say whatever they want. So this is what people said, I feel so unseen and angry when my workplace goes out of the way to include so many other marginalized identities in our dei work, but body size is not included. It feels like such a glaring omission to me and sends a message that my workplace either completely doesn't understand why we need to be talking about fatness or just doesn't care. That's from a 30 to 39 woman from the US. Agree, Agree, Agree 100%. How I'm thinking like, how does that make everyone else feel? It makes me you know, you know, the fat folks. That was such a huge, pun intended, large, pun intended, significant, pun intended, part of the employee population, right. Many people are in bigger bodies with a biggest equity deserving group, right? I'm wearing almost exclusively. So it's like, you know, hello. Come on. It makes me feel really kind of

Vinny Welsby 20:03

it makes me feel mad. It makes me feel mad when I experienced that. You all when you see on forums like, oh, we really wants to, you know, make sure that we're getting, we're being inclusive in our application or whatever it is. And they'll say, Are you Are you part of any of these groups, and they'll just include a few. And hang on, you're missing off gender diverse people, you're missing off disabled people, you're missing off, and almost 19. And I've never seen them ever mentioned people with bigger bodies, never. But often they miss other things. So if they should just say, you know, here are some options and also include fat people, but then also have the, you know, other or just tell us what groups you're part of. Someone else said so much, it's hard to capture it all. It is hard to fill any ease at work, diet, weight loss, and anti fat Body Talk crop up regularly, even during professional meetings. I greatly prefer days when I get to work remotely. I met many colleagues virtually first and their responses of seeing me in person where I was clearly fatter than they were expecting made me uncomfortable. I also felt like some people treat me differently after meeting me in person. The physical workspace isn't accommodating with seats that aren't sturdy, or and or have arms, we have regular office events where I'm required to wear a branded t shirt that doesn't come in my size. I think this common encompasses a lot of the different themes, which is branded t shirt, not resize the chairs, work from home being better. Weight Loss talk anti fat talk, coming up regularly in professional meetings. This is a lot this is kind of like a good overview of what the fat experiences but this is kind of, you know, in gentle words, without the egregious kind of this is how people talk. I'm going to share those as well. I think that's a big that's a big thing is work from home, I think is a really good solution for many people, not just people in bigger bodies, but disabled people, neurodivergent people etc. To navigate the workplace. And so I think that that would help with decreasing the amount of anti fat bias people are exposed to. Don't have to be in contact with other humans as much who was spouting this shit. Ah. Okay, so next comment hours long discussions of diets and body size competitive fitness challenges by department. If you don't walk X steps, you're letting the department down on site dietitian measuring body fat percentages for staff as part of part of a quote, wellness day demands for low calorie catering during staff retreats. I had a one on one lunch with my boss who asked me if I had, quote, earned my carbs. As we looked at the menu, I've had matching, I've had matching T shirts handing out at all staff events in sizes that wouldn't fit me and have been flooded with compliments on my weight loss when I was severely ill. That's from a queer woman who's neurodivergent 30 to 39. In the US, coming from a work from home to in office position, I was shocked at how prevalent and pervasive the diet organ culture was. The amount of times I've heard, quote, working here is going to give me diabetes. Because someone did to bring in doughnuts no matter how many times I've taken the time to explain what the actual risk factors are for diabetes, just so it shows how much they don't care, and that they'd rather continue with their fat phobic rhetoric. In addition, it's a constant policing of food. Are you having another one that looks when you say that you did to rest or turn down participating in the latest quote, wellness challenge, and just the constant air of being judged? Which I fully recognize isn't as bad as it could be. But it is exhausting to constantly be exposed to it and shown how many people think you're wrong for simply existing and daring to enjoy your existence in a fat body. I think you know, which I fully recognize isn't a bad isn't as bad as it could be. Yes. And it's also really fucking bad. Like, this stuff. I just think about the cumulative effect that this stuff has on our mental well being and our and our health and our success in the workforce. You know, just that constant air of being judged. That story is from a 20 to 2920 to 29 year old, disabled queer person from the United States. A lot of people were saying that they have To eat their lunch in their car. That was a common story, eating lunch in my car. Because it got so overwhelming to listen to diet talk and anti fatness in the office that they had to remove themselves, or people looking at what they're eating and judging and saying out loud, what they're thinking. This comment is interesting, because I think this is really important for a lot of people, especially if we're looking at people in the DEI world who hope that they are working on biases and I think a lot of or the more that I'm exposed to the DEI world, the more I'm like, What the fuck because you I don't know about you, but I always thought that people who were committed to and learning stuff would be committed to unlearning stuff and doing better. A lot of them come up with really fucked up things around fatness. Really, really a lot of what I'm doing I'm just like flabbergasted thinking, hang on. You do this as a job, right? What? But anyway, this comment says so much of the anti fat bias and comments I hear a word come from people who truly believe they are not biased against fat folks. It's often their own body image issues and insecurities that prompt these comments in the first place. But they seem to like any awareness of how triggering and harmful these comments are. It feels invalidating of my work and my being. And that's the thing is is the most one way unlearning anti fatness the most egregious you know when we're really into it a second time I said egregious the most you know when you're steeped in anti fatness, you are openly like, oh, I can have fat people the disgusting. Then when you overcome that bit, and you're like, Okay, well fat people are, are are human and shit, and they deserve respect and access and all that type of stuff. Then you're like that, but then you say it but me, ah, disgusting. And that goes for if you're in a bigger body, and you're not in a bigger body. And so, so often how this stuff manifests is oh, I shouldn't I've been so naughty, you know, oh, I should really get on a diet and oh, you know, all that type of stuff. Oh, I look so fat today. Self depreciating. If someone is saying that and they're in a smaller body is harmful if you know no matter what, but especially if they're in a smaller body. And the colleague is there sat opposite. They're meeting their lunch in a bigger body. And you have your smaller bodied colleague being like, Oh, I'm so greedy and fat. Because I ate. I licked a just ball the other day and so I mustn't eat for the next 17 years. And I Oh, I'm just the biggest I've ever been. I was really bad. I don't know. But you're good. No, you're fine. You're beautiful. No, don't call yourself fat. No, you're gorgeous. Hello, bit of a disconnect there. What's going on? So the stories that I found were the most sad and enraging was the stories about what your bosses, what your supervisors what company leaders have said. Okay, so let's hear some of those stories encouraged and assumed to have had weight loss surgery. While I was out of work for my mental health, due to a s a, was told by my boss that he was not shocked about a type two diagnosis, constant and incessant diet talk and fat body hate talk at every corner of the office. An old office manager wouldn't say to my face that she would rather die than be fat. That is from a 50 to 59 year old woman in the United States. When I first took a job with my current employer, my supervisor had just started a new diet and constantly pushed it to me to the point where I was concerned that if I didn't also do this diet, I could lose my job. I chose not to sit at my job because the chairs do not fit me. That's from a woman United States 40 to 49.

Vinny Welsby 29:50

One of the most memorable ones for me was the time I cheered during a meeting. And my boss responded with Hey, You burned a calorie. That's just that one for me really, really hits. Because you're there cheering you know, something, presumably something good happened and we're sharing a moment of joy. And that joy, that joy and connection is just torn apart. By, hey, you burned a calorie. That's like, you know, when you feel safe and you're like, Oh, this is good and you're having a good time. And then, in an instant, it's eviscerated. And you're brought back to reality that you can't even cheer or be in a team or participate without your boss saying, thinking about your body. That one really hit for me. That's a disabled woman, the US 30 to 39. There are wellness initiatives every year, some of which include a monetary bonus, I've been subjected to a lot of diet talk. I wouldn't waste calories on white carbs, etc. Coworkers once judge the size of my garden salad asking if I was going to eat all of that, and stating, if I ate a salad that big, I wouldn't be hungry all day, I'd skip dinner. My former manager made jokes about the eating habits of multiple co workers and other departments. In one of the only wellness initiatives I've participated in tracking servings of vegetables each day, I was one of the only participants and I think I may have won. No winner was announced alone. And the plan prize was never given out. Once overheard a supervisor observing me getting seconds from a monthly lunch buffet and telling a colleague that one just thinks with their stomach. It's overwhelming, isn't it? You wouldn't feel safe, you wouldn't feel safe being doing anything. I mean, we know this right? We know this. We know this. That's from a 40 to 49 year old United States queer, gender diverse neurodivergent person. Just that surveillance, surveillance, surveillance and mistrust. Like, just you know, you eat in a salad. And it's, oh my God, how could you eat that? That's so huge. And this person, they said, I overheard a supervisor not my direct supervisor, not even your direct supervisor. What the fuck is it got to do with them. It's not even gonna It's got nothing to do with anyone anyway, but like, you're not even safe with other people. This person says my first real job the head boss called me Miss Piggy behind my back. And everyone else for two years. I only learned a bit after I left and a colleague finally came clean for two years. This person, woman lowest socio economic status us that it is 89 was called Miss Piggy by the head boss. I just can't even I just can't I just can't even and no one. No, they just let it happen. And they say you know is the head boss. I understand this power dynamics there but you know, maybe even telling them like if I was if there was some power dynamic where I didn't feel safe to say something I share I mean, I can't imagine me not. Can you imagine if someone said to me, Oh Miss Piggy, blah blah blah and I I'd be thinking that they were meaning it as an as in their fabulous person. Because I want everyone compute to me for the first second that they were trying to be derogatory anyway. But obviously, this person is trying to be derogatory, right? You know, you you would you would shut that down in any way. You couldn't. If you couldn't, you would go and tell the person. You are not safe here. This is what's happening. I don't know that would do that. Me. That's all I would have. I don't know. It was primarily directed at women supervisors or co workers pointing out a larger woman and saying looks like she's about to pop or she could afford to miss a few meals. That's from a racialized person woman who has a minority religion in the US 30 to 39. I once worked worked for a men's health organization. I was told I needed to be smaller from the executive director to reflect men's health. I am a woman. It made me feel terrible. That someone 40 to 49 from Canada racialized woman. Someone was stuck out working in a front desk nonprofit and had to eat my lunch on my desk often. Supervisor saw sticky been on my desk and said, Wow, I guess you're really treating yourself and then saw a dish of peas the next day and said, keep that up, you'll see some change lots of hyper fitness focused staff. And they added in movement breaks to meetings that were high intensity, interval activities. And not accessible for all being told by director that we weren't using health insurance a lot. And that was a good thing financially. So we should quote keep it up and encouraged after joining the running club or start climb stairs to make sure that we wouldn't need to use it in the future. That's from an neurodivergent person in the US 30 to 39. So many experiences one but one that stands out is being asked by a bully anti fat manager. Are you going to eat them all? When I brought in some doughnuts to share on my last day? 40 to 49 year old woman in the UK. I hate it here. I hate it here. This is just what I really like is that what really gets me is the the moments of joy or community and connection that are destroyed by anti fatness and diet culture. I don't know about you. But that one, those ones really get me when you're like, you know, and this must be some healed shit from from my childhood, that you know what it is, you know what it is? I know what it is. I know what it is. I tell this story in therapy like, a few times a year, I probably told you a lot as well. But I remember when I had a balloon, I went to Burger King for the one and only time in my childhood when I got invited to a birthday party there. And so this was like, flip your shit best thing has ever happened. Right? And so you know, you get the balloons on the sticks. And so I took that home like beyond happy. And my dad was a bully and abusive and he couldn't handle any noise. He I think he was he was neurodivergent never diagnosed. And I was silently playing with this balloon on a stick literally just gently wiggling it about and just the I don't know something about that really annoyed my dad and he said, Oh, come up here. Let me see that balloon. And he took a cigarette and he popped it. And I think that's why you know when someone's having experiencing joy. why that's so powerful to me that someone comes in pop literally burst that balloon. Ah. And even my mum. She would never she wouldn't stand up to my dad and I remember even my mum said, Roger, that's my dad's name. And I was like, Oh, I know that's fucked up. Because even my mum said Roger, and then then my lips started trembling and but we didn't cry. And then I think my dad was like, gonna look at you whinging and something like that. That word that word is difficult to whinge off. Anyway, so maybe other people have other you know, like other experiences which make other stories really difficult for them to hear. But that joy being crushed as as my is my one. I don't worry about it. Don't worry about me. I'm in therapy. Everything's fine. Okay, so some general anti fat talk. I once had a woman my office looked me right in the eye and suggested a sponsored slim, a sponsor Slim is like a sponsored weight loss. You know, people pay to lose weight, a sponsored slim I wasn't even part of the conversation about ways to raise money for charity, so I guess I will doing a charity thing. I was just there minding my own business making a coffee. Like fuck off last a 30 to 39 year old UK disabled queer near division woman don't you just wish in those in those moments? You could just be like fuck off Sharon. Here the forecast you I'm just making a coffee. Why don't you do a sponsored shut the fuck up. God fucker now.

Vinny Welsby 39:31

Oh, this person who is a woman from the US 30 to 39 says it's always a little shocking. Recently in a presentation and metaphor was slides and drawings was used to describe how our processes had become fat and lazy. And these are the steps to run a marathon. I looked around to see if anyone else else in a group of 10 was noticing this, but I was the only fat person. Yeah, I get that too. That kind of what are we still we're still doing this even though we're not I know we're still doing this. What really gets me is I can't I can't read business books because they always crowbar in a conversation about weight loss or a metaphor about weight loss or about being fat. I'm like, What the fuck is fat got to do with taxes? And they were like, oh fuckin metaphor. I'm just like, why it's so common in the business world. It's It's bizarre. It's bizarre. This person who was 20 to 29 from the US queer woman neurodivergent says really judgmental talk from teammates equating sugary coffee to getting diabetes. We wish this whole fucking sugar and diabetes thing would just die a death. I mean, come on. Get with the program people diabetes is an almost exclusively a genetic contagion. Having a sugary coffee is not going to give you diabetes, which the other person shared that story of like, hey, educating about diabetes. And still people are like, Oh, anyway, so teammates quitting sugary coffees to getting diabetes judgments of others uncomfortable office manager and lack of inclusivity a teammate I felt close to once made a bunch of anti fat jokes about someone at Starbucks I got a super sugary drink and I just remember being so dejected as my team laughed and I wondered if they felt that way that way on the days I got a latte or brought something that wasn't a salad Mmm Hmm I don't understand how people don't understand that when they make jokes about someone else. They're also saying like the same things about everything everyone else in that you know in that in that room they're saying I think that people who do ABC I think people who eat sugar are whatever it is that they're saying when they know every single person that's around them has has and does eat sugar even if they're on a diet when they don't eat sugar they're selling sugar because if they didn't they die in some ways a sugar and lots of things anyway whatever what and then everyone's laughing along but everyone's probably thinking the same fucking thing like oh yeah good one good one. Oh, but I I like a tomato last week and that probably has like naught point naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught naught one gram of sugar and so do they think that I'm a greedy sugar eating monster. They probably do, you know, so even though everyone was laughing, everyone was probably all feeling like shit. And the person making the joke also feels like shit because they're making that type of joke. But then the person who's who's in the bigger body is the one who's getting the brunt of it, right? This person is from the US. They're 20 to 29. They are queer and lower socio economic status. They say I work in a hospital, and I've had doctors and nurses make comments about my weight to me. I had a red tag asked me why I thought I was so fat. When I told them I'd always been this size. He went on to tell me I was eating too much sugar without ever seeing me eat or drink anything. And without any input from me. I've also witnessed medical professionals speaking negatively about patients bodies in ways that weren't medically relevant. One particularly egregious example was when a trauma surgeon and ER nurse were overheard talking about how gross it was to watch CPR being done on a severely injured, injured and shirtless man in a large body. He even as he lie, lies lay there fighting for his life. People were commenting on his body was just this just so fucked up in such a vulnerable moment. Why would they be thinking about his body size unless it was relevant to the treatment and helping this person? That's why like, I would love to be able to donate my body to science. And because people need to study fat bodies, but one it would be rejected because my body's apparently too big to study their possible. But also, I know that my body would be a spectacle. You know, it wouldn't be like, Oh, here's an here's a normal body test just to study. It would be Oh, look at what fatness does it to a body Oh, look at this fat person. Oh, you know, on a documentary on BBC about you know, remember that that fat autopsy thing, just so violent and horrifying? You know? And that's like the deepest darkest fears is that like for me is the people have been kind to you. And in reality they they're turning the back and they're disgusted and a doctor patient relationship especially when you're going to be unconscious. I just really I feel really uncomfortable about it like when I got my gallbladder out and the doctor was just like, why what I'm presuming is sis hat guy and you know he didn't really talk to me and I just thought I just thought about him you know just roughly pulling up my robe whatever to access my stomach for the surgery and then you have to they have to blow up your stomach to not blow it up inflate it with air to so they can do the laparoscopic laparoscopic surgery and just thinking of me being there in such a vulnerable position and then what what are they thinking? You know, are they thinking like this and just hoping that they are are are kind people there to? Who will see you as human issues dog. This person who is a woman from the US 40 to 49 says the most memorable experience I had was during my peak time of disordered eating and exercise. When I was like my smallest employees started asking me if I was new. When did I start? When I like to go to lunch? I'd been there for 10 plus years. And then when I gained the weight back as most do, those employees stopped talking to me and ignoring me. And I was back to being invisible. This stuff. I mean, I felt like we need to have a break of like, I don't know watching a video of kittens or something. This is so this is a lot. You feel like this is a lot go watch go and watch a video that's gonna make you feel a bit better. Be of kittens isn't your thing. You're like a kitten you like a puppy? You know, I really like budgies. Oh, a bird. Oh, yes, this is new bird I started following I wish I could tell you the name of it. But the bird loves to go in a cupboard in the kitchen and throw the cups out of the cupboard. And the birds parents pretend that the bird is not allowed in the cupboard. But they cleared the cupboard out and put on plastic cups in and like bells and toys in there for him. And so whenever they open the cupboard the bird rushes in and is like and like marches around the cupboard throwing things around and they all like Oh stop being so naughty. You're such a bad bird like joking with him. And the birds is just having that having such a gale time. Oh, I do like that bird a lot. But I just you know, read like a really like a nice bird. What do you like? What's your favorite? Favorite silly animal? Maybe you don't like animals? Who are you? Who are you? Okay, next story, a woman from the UK 40 to 49 says, and what did an office where a colleague brought in a set of scales. Talking about slugging life of the party bringing in a set of scale so the office stop it. And everyone joined in with weighing themselves in front of everyone else. White one colleague there who claimed to have had nursing training said that she could tell how much someone weighs just by looking at them. And we had this fucking circus. What there's actually there's a person that there's a local fair, fair, amusement park, whatever in Vancouver, and one of the people there says, Give me $1 And if I don't if I guess your weight correctly, I keep it or whatever and if not, then you you get $5 or whatever. And it has this it has some scales. What the fuck type of fucking What? No.

Vinny Welsby 49:31

Oh, this person also says another colleague at the same place told me that I looked like the back end of a bus. That sounds like a lovely colleague. That's a British saying back end of the buses like big I guess I think that's what that means. Yeah, that's what I would always take it as like someone who's an attractive, big I guess. This person who's 40 to 49 from the US As woman neurodivergent lower socio economic status, were in a meeting about an upcoming major event and instead they talked about keto diets for half an hour. I asked, Could we talk about what we came here to discuss? This was brought up in my yearly review as not being a team player. Oh, sorry, I was just trying to do work and not be harmed by your bullshit, Kito. Fucking, unless they all happen to be children who are diabetic, or sorry, have epilepsy? I don't think they were. Okay. So wellness initiatives, wellness initiatives, this person 30 to 39 from the UK woman neurodivergent workplace exercise challenge where others could see how active you were sent me into an orthorexia spiral was exercising like three times a day. So I had the highest exercise score in my team so people could see I was being a good, fatty. Mm hmm. I don't understand. I don't understand this. I don't understand how someone could be sat in HR being like, could be a good challenge. I know, let's make people do at steps challenge or an exercise challenge. It's not gonna fuck with them in any type of way. No, it's just going to be great for their well being, what could go wrong? And they ask themselves What could go wrong? And they say nothing. Maybe the fat people will stop me and so if I can find out? Like, isn't it so obvious that this could be so risky for people's mental health and well being a competition of how much to move, and everyone can see what you're doing? I just added

Vinny Welsby 52:11

monthly weight loss challenges from HR and the person who lost the most weight during the challenge won a prize. These challenges sometimes had us logging our weight into an Excel spreadsheet, which HR kept track of weekly health related emails from HR promoting diet culture. The faculty fuck is that was that? Again, again, that person sent an HR saying love this. Half the price is a new fucking HR team. That's surprised that's what we need. Like I'm not new HR, get rid of that fucking ding dong, HR person who's tracking employees weights in an Excel sheet. Oh, it's just so fun

Vinny Welsby 53:11

I just did this new linguistic thing that apparently is a trend now. This is linguistic person I follow on Instagram. So I'm tell you about these people that are following this. I'm not gonna tell you what the names are. I remember. Sorry about that. Anyway, this is this new linguistic thing that they've noticed is that people are saying no, I just did that. I just did I so fucked up. This someone from drag race drag race UK, they're Irish. And that's the every sentence they talk like that. And it winds me up to no end. And I'm like, stop being annoyed by this because you know, that's just the way they speak. And so the devil on my shoulder is like, but it's so fucking annoying. And then like, you know, the angels like, oh, yeah, it's probably based in some really problematic thing. You judging them for going at the end of every sentence and don't do it. You're a terrible person for being annoyed. And they'll be like, it is so annoying. So there'll be like Oh, my God. Where is this? I'm going down here. Oh, I really like taking drinking some tea. Anyway, I'm gonna stop being rude. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Anyway. But anyway, this this was linguish. This was just like, there's no judgment on it. It was just like, this is a new thing that people are doing. And there you go. Anyway, okay. So a lot of people what they're saying is that a lot of people are mentioning eating disorders and how they're praised for eating disorder behavior. And because they're praised because they were engaging in eating disorder and they lost weight because of an eating disorder. A lot of Eating Disorder Awareness. needs to be had around this stuff. This person says at my current company for years, they had a challenge where if you lost a certain percentage of your body weight, they would pay you a notable notable one time bonus for quote prioritizing your health. Perhaps the one benefit of the company not performing great is they have not they have gotten rid of this quote perk. That's a disabled woman from the USA to 39. This person is from Spain 30 to 39 racialized queer woman neurodivergent and immigrants. My work created a wellness group led by an outside contractor held weekly for a few months. It was intended to be about becoming healthier, but was very much weight centered, including including encouraging weighing ourselves. coworkers asked if I was going, so I did. And in the group, people shared why they were there. And there was a lot of negativity about being fat. For example, one co worker talked about her upcoming wedding, and said she would hate to be a quote, shabby bride. I went to the first session and didn't want to go again, but felt obligated to make excuses about needing to cover my section. Honestly, these wellness, these wellness things are just so badly researched, and it just seems like you know, a sexy thing for companies to do like 10 years ago. I was like where's my scissors I had to cut up because it was gonna play with something on my desk while I was talking. But they're over there because I had to cut up my PR card for my personal permanent residency card because now I'm a citizen. Anyway, what the fuck was I talking about? Let's talk about many, many stories about clothing and uniform and PPE not fitting personal protective equipment. This person who is from Australia 3239, queer, gender, diverse neurodivergent lower socio economic status says PPE not fitting correctly caused physical discomfort and nobody else in the workplace seemed to have an issue with it. So I accepted that it was a quote me problem. And at that point, I believed it was obviously my problem to fix through intentional body size manipulation, which particularly backfired, I ended up even bigger. The PPE not fitting correctly caused significant anxiety about my safety, not having inclusive sizing and uniforms caused me to feel shame, I was less able to do my work efficiently because of the anxiety and shame spirals. I mean, even if if organizations look at this as a cost, cost saving measure, you know, you're going to be people are going to be better at their job if they are comfortable and safe and feel included. And you're not going to get sued when someone gets hurt because the equipment doesn't fit them. You know, it makes financial sense to give a shit about fat people. There's a number of stories about people saying that they were told they had to dress in a certain way, but they're straight sighs coworkers didn't. And it was because they were uncomfortable. They been people their bosses were uncomfortable with seeing their body. This person says my director informed me that I should wear clothing gear to my body like pants, no shorts, shirts, no shorter than three quarter sleeve. Or I should wear cardigans and blazers if I if I absolutely felt I needed to wear shorter sleeves. Our office is business casual, and no one other than myself is asked to dress that way. Our director is a woman herself and is is. And this dress code was for myself only and didn't change until four other coworkers called her on the role in an all staff meeting at which point she denied making the statement saying I must have missed understood her request. That's from a 40 to 49 year old racialized queer woman in the US. This person from France queer woman 30 to 39 I work in a reception in a four star hotel until last year, the uniform we had was relatively easy to substitute with items from brands other than our official supplier, a white shirt and black slacks. Last year, the manager decided to change the uniform to something much harder to substitute baby pink shirt and navy suit with a waistcoat. I had to insist time and time again to make sure that they would choose a supplier with as large a sizing range as possible. And when we eventually received samples to try on the management had only requested Franch sizes I'm guessing the smaller sizes despite Knowing several team members were large sizes, meaning a few of us essentially had to guess at our size for the final order. The answer when we mentioned the sample sizes, it's fine. If things don't fit, when we received the final order, we can always return and exchange them. I'm still waiting for a waistcoat that will fit me. A lot of people have said that they've just given up on trying to get close, because it's good, because it seems like the bosses are just like, oh, this is too hard. And people are advocating for themselves very bravely advocating for themselves. And they're just getting told that they're a nuisance and annoyance and go away. And it's fine, you know, and they're so excluded, then they get in trouble for not meeting the dress code. Another thing that I hadn't thought about it, because the first thing I hadn't thought about was working from home being better for people. Which I mean, obviously, but something I didn't think about was interactions with customers and how we how we should be setting policies for the way that we allow customers to talk to employees, like we wouldn't allow our customers to say, you know, be abusive in certain ways. So why would it be okay for them to say things about that person? So here's some examples. Work in health care. So constantly hearing how terrible it is for your health to be fat. I have had disgruntled patients comment on my fatness as a way to lash out or get revenge that's from a woman us that, you know, once had a client reply, when I said I had to that I'd have to do that after I ran home, say, oh, was if you could run, let me say that again. Once had a client reply, when I said I'd have to do that after I ran home, say, oh, as if you could run. That's a Australian woman 3039 gender diverse and queer. I work in Customer Service. And I once had a customer come up to me and recommend a weight loss drug to tell my family doctor about I Pokerface the entire interaction and asked her if there was anything specific about the job I do that I can help her with. And she said, No, she just really wants me to feel as happy as she as as her when I lose the weight. I went to the back room and asked for someone to cover the desk while I cried in the bathroom. My male supervisor at the time didn't cry too much about what upset me but he wasn't able to support me or even ask the customer to leave because she technically hadn't done anything to warrant to be escorted off the property. That was another reminder that all I have to do is exist in a fat body. And people take that as permission to give unsolicited advice, judgment and feedback.

Vinny Welsby 1:02:59

That's from a 30 to 39 year old in Canada, who is racialized woman neurodivergent. And an immigrant in China is like such a power difference there when you're talking to a customer. Because you could lose your job if you said to that customer, mind your fucking business. So you have to have this, you know, theoretically take this abuse, this shaming, and like this person said, What are we gonna say, you know, can you leave because you're shaming body shaming staff? Well, if you had policies in place to say that we expect, we this is a problem, right? Because we were not even always a problem. If you had like, top down. Listen, we don't accept we don't accept diet talk and body shaming. Anti fatness, that would be really easy for you as if you're a supervisor, you witnessed that from a customer and say, I'm sorry, a customer. But I'm gonna have to ask you to leave because we don't accept comments about our employees bodies. How easy would that be? was probably not easy, but you would have the you would have the corporate backing. You would you would know that you were in the right here. It's kind of like this. It's this example. What can you do? Oh, I was just being helpful. I'm just, you know, now we know we know. This is unsolicited anti fatness and diet culture. And it's fucked up. And this person is is racialized. Woman neurodiverse immigrant. So think about all the other experiences that they're having to go through with those other identities as well, of being, you know, micro aggression out the wazoo, and you know, overt discrimination. So you these other little things which they're not little just piling on and piling on. And it'd be easy as well if we know if we know if that the supervisor was like, oh shit, and he fatness is is anti blackness is white supremacy is ableism and knowing that this person is a racialized person who is neurodivergent? A woman? They can, they can be easier for them to as I say, this is not okay, this is not okay. Versus they're just trying to help. So I think there's education about why this is so powerfully impactfully. Awful, is really important. Okay, so I think I'm gonna leave it there. With with the stories, let me just go back and give you a couple of other kind of stats. In case you're interested. how impactful has anti fat bias been on you throughout your whole career. And I asked people to scale it from a zero to a 10. Zero being not impactful at all, and 10 being incredibly impactful. The average answer was seven, the next one was EIGHT. So seven or eight impactful out of 10. I also broke this down by marginalized group. And so which marginalized groups said that they are more impacted by anti fatness? And what do we think? What do we think? What does your brain say? What marginalized groups are the most impacted by anti fatness? You say your you say you guess in your in your brain? And let's see if we've got it right. Okay, so the average response number wise by all respondents, so average response is 6.039. So that's the average response. And these are all, from all people with marginalized identities. Right? I next time, I'm going to do like, what's your gender, and so have it like, man, woman, gender, queer, blah, blah, blah. What's your so we can then compare, you know, men to gender queer people, or women to gender queer people. Or we can do that with a women and gender queer right now but have space for people to say where they have got privilege in our identities versus just where they are lacking privilege in our identity. So next time, I'll do that, but anyway, generous response from people with with the marginalized identities is 6.039. The people most impacted were racialized people whose average answer was 6.838 to three. The second most is lower social socio economic status. I think that's really interesting about you know, poorness and fatness. And that combination of how people are looking down poor fat and black it feels like is the kind of really derived Id really looked down upon discriminated combination. Then we have disabled, then is queer, neurodivergent, immigrant, minority religion, gender diverse. All respondents and then women, actually, women were all respondents was the lowest and then women would just above just above that. So I wonder if I can do an analysis of if someone has multiple marginalized identities, if they are experiencing more, because we know what the answer is. Yes. Right. So I wanted to get like a number way of relating this information to see how impactful it is. And then we've got the stories as well, to back it up. What other questions do we have? What do you think is the most important way to make a workplace fat positive the number one thing that I said you could only pick one which was which was mean of me, you and I leave it around. We want all of these accessibility support a standard for example, chairs for fat folks inclusive uniform sizes, accessible office space. The second most popular was HR policies that makes size a protected class. And the third most popular was a no diet talk or anti fat bias talk policy. What people have said a couple of people have said is that they worry about training, and what people are saying about the training and how the training If you had training, how it can be perceived, will it create more of a mobile bias. And I think that's that's a really interesting point, because I think it's important how the training is delivered. Because Because Because Because because, unfortunately, a lot of dei trainings are really shit. That shit. They're boring, they are boring as fuck, they're judgmental. They are blaming, not all of them, but many. And when I do when I'm doing, like, when I'm doing my training, I don't want to be I don't want to be, I want to have fun, right? I want to have fun. And I don't be boring reading of a slide. You know, that's not my personality. And people always seem to be really surprised that if they didn't know me, that, you know, they had fun during a training. And, and from what I know, because we know so much about shaming in our community in the fat community. And we know how much shaming is a shit way to motivate people to change, I think going in with the not shaming people for what they've done, and making it about making it about them, and how everyone, not everyone, but pretty much everyone can relate to feeling dissatisfied with their body, and relating it to why they should care, I think is important, right versus stopping mean to fat people. But you know, of course, stopping me to fat people. But let's maybe do education in a way that is bringing people in versus calling people out and getting people engaged and interested and passionate about this subject, and and moved by stories and experiences of people that they love and know and care about, versus having to do this thing because they're forced to and they're really mad about it. I think there's a big difference there is you can approach training in different ways. So yeah, so I don't have answers. I'm thinking about them, I think about should, should training be mandatory.

Vinny Welsby 1:12:34

And there's certainly lots of de dei trainings that are mandatory Sorry, I've been using that that dei without saying what it is in case you didn't know diversity, equity and inclusion, to we have to force people to behave in a certain way. Or before that they before they will I'm thinking about the people who are real, really like committed to bigotry and bias. Is that what is successful and has been successful in in other areas? Are we are we trying to reach those people? Or are we trying to reach people who are somewhere in the middle and closer to to the belief that fat people are human, and just helping them come along and help them be better advocates and be better in the workplace? So know everything about these things? If you want to talk to me about that stuff, let me know. It's interesting to think about, right? I'm always thinking about like how how to how to make people think force people to think like me are such a perfect human being. You just think like me know, like, how to communicate with people so that they are motivated to make a change in regards to being committed to anti fatness and not being committed to anti fairness. Like, what is the best and you know, what I found is that shaming and blaming is just not that's That ain't for me. That's not for me. So, anyway. So I know there's more questions, but you know, I've been going on for like, 50,000 1000 years already. How's my face? Oh, my goodness. I just looked on my face and it is a way less read. Thank you on REL T. O N. R Elta. That's an expensive fucking cream. I think it was like a it's like a really small size and it's like $125 I have to pay for things. When I can I just have people why do I have to pay for health care? Well, I guess I don't live in the US. So I will now I'm Canadian. I don't have to pay for most of my healthcare, I have to pay for my fucking inhaler, which is $125. So it's like $2 or $2 a sack on it. Anyway, but whatever, you know, I'm thinking, you know, all the things I don't like about Canada, but I've just become Canadian and I really like it here. I like being Canada way more than the UK and Ireland. And I'm very pleased that the Canadian government has decided that I am allowed to stay Thank you Canadian government. I appreciate you. All right, if you want to do the survey, if you want to keep it open, you know, if you don't do the surveys in the show notes, if you don't know where the show notes are go to facebook.com forward slash whatever the fucking episode number this is one eight is it one eight, something like that. I'm sorry helpful. If you appreciate the work that I'm doing go to Koh Phi K O F I and the link will be in the show notes. And you can donate some money so that I can buy some face cream for my rosacea Hey or not? Whatever, if you want to amazing if you don't. You did to me get out of my life. No, we don't. You do you do you? But I would really appreciate them. All right. Well, thanks for hanging out with me. By the time this this comes out. Maybe in the next week or two this the final report of this is going to be out there's so much information right? Oh, nearly imagine there's like 300 Plus stories because people are sharing stories in different sections. Anyway, whatever. I'll stop talking. Let you go enjoy your day. Have a wonderful, fierce fatty day. Remember you are worthy. You're always where you always will be. Stay first fatty. Good boy. See you later. Sassy. Bye.

Episode 187 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Fat discrimination and ADHD diagnosis. 0:00

• ADHD diagnosis and symptoms. 3:20

• ADHD, weight inclusivity, and anti-fat bias in diversity training. 9:27

• Fat bias in diversity and inclusion training. 14:55

• Weight bias in the workplace, with examples of job applicants being rejected due to their weight. 19:44

• Weight bias and its impact on women's financial well-being. 27:00

• Weight-based discrimination in the workplace. 31:25

• Body size discrimination in the workplace. 40:28

• Anti-fat bias and its impact on society. 46:20

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Vinny Welsby 0:00

You're listening to the Vickery podcast episode 187 D eyes big fat problem fat discrimination. I'm your host Vinny Welsby Bledsoe.

Hello, welcome to this episode of fish fatty podcasts so glad you're here. If you saw this episode come out and said never monthly episode from Vinay I'm excited and you haven't already consider donating on kofi KOF phi, which is kind of like Patreon and you can do as little as $5 a month or a one off donation. Because cofee is what pays for the podcast? And the more donations that we get on cofee the more podcast episodes that we can get out for you. So yeah, I'll put the link in the show notes. But it's COVID kayo. FYI. First party? Why the hell? They don't call it pronounce it. Car fee? When it's buy me a coffee. Honestly. You missed a mark with that. Maybe actually, maybe maybe it's because it's from a different country and in that country. Coffee is pronounced cofee? Maybe that's what it is. Maybe did I solve the problem? Is that what it is? Anyway? It seems it seems strange to me. Hey, some news. It is might be relevant for about 10% of you. Or maybe if you just want to know stuff about me? Or maybe not. Maybe you just want to know stuff about fat stuff. That's why you're here. In case you're interested me. Know Vinnie, shut up and start telling us about the fat stuff. I just got diagnosed with ADHD with autistic traits, and some exciting and it's combined type. What is it hyperactive and inattentive? Yeah, so fun. And you know, who helped me realize that I have ADHD. Asha from the fact doctor. Oh, my goodness, if you are having any health concerns, Asha does sessions virtually. And I cannot even tell you how wonderful it was to speak to a doctor about health stuff. And then be like, oh, yeah, well, that's because of this and not blame it on on your way. It was just honestly, so affirming. And I've been doing this stuff for years. Right? But to have that relationship experience with Asher, he was just so fucking good. So listen, if you've got any type of health thing, and you just want someone to be like, Listen, this is what's going on this is you know, decoding the anti fat bullshit. Then Asher is your guy. So anyway, Ashley was like, Oh, you have ADHD, right? Because I was just talking about, you know, stuff that I was thinking and doing. And I was like, Ha, no, I don't have ADHD, obviously. Because you know, what I thought about ADHD was that I don't have it, basically. Because I had said to Asher, I could never ever work in a quote, real job ever again. There's no way that I could do that. And also, I was talking about time stuff and how because I'm an I'm an excessively on time person. And as well as not ADHD, because I'm always on time. And I was thinking, Yeah, I'm so on time because I'm so stressed about not being on time that if I have an appointment the morning the next morning, all night, my sleep will be ruined, because I'll be thinking about the appointment and make sure that I'm getting there and then then I'll be early for the appointment and then you know, say is an appointment online, then I'm like, Okay, well, you know, I've got half an hour to the appointment. So I'll just look at some stuff online. And then next thing you know, it's like one minute to the appointment. I'm like, oh shit, like where did that time go? Like what I was early what back? Anyway, that's just the one thing that that actually was like, that was like ADHD. So in Canada, which is where I am, you can get on a waitlist and get an assessment for free by the government. Well, not the government but you know, a healthcare provider. but you can also do private and private is $300, which apparently, in the US people are flabbergasted by how cheap it is. Maybe you should be calling our Canadian doctors and getting an assessment done that way. Because apparently in other places in it, and in Australia, it costs like $5,000 or something, which is bonkers. Why? Why? Anyway, so the assessment in case you're interested, skip ahead a few minutes. If you're like, I don't care about ADHD stuff, stuff. The assessment basically met a psychologist, psychiatrist, one of the two, one that doesn't do prescriptions, but as a doctor. And I had a 90 minute conversation with her. Just asking me about my life, basically, my my childhood and the things, the things that I perceive as issues like, how do I perceive that ADHD might affect be affecting me? And the time from Asher saying, Hey, do you have ADHD, to me having this appointment was probably a couple of months, because I was just mulling it over being like, do it and then writing a list on my phone of the potential symptoms. And I just kept adding it and adding it. And the symptoms became about maybe 60 things long. So I was like, okay, the more I learned about ADHD, the more I was like, Oh, well, this is a symptom. This is a symptom. Anyway, so. So the doctor asked about, you know, sort of what are the things that I struggle with, and a big thing for me is struggling to do a full day's work because there's just no, it's just so hard for me to do that, because my brain is distracted. And as well, too. So that's a that's a huge thing, because it really limits my my ability to work and make money. And the other one is that I struggle with future planning. And so making plans, connecting with friends, and so my friends are the types of people who will be like, Vinny, let's hang on, I'd like to work. Yeah, I'd love to do that. It's really hard for me to, to, to reach out to people and say, let's, let's make a plan. And let's do this thing in two weeks, or whatever, because I'm living it just in the moment. I'm not living in the future in the past, I'm just thinking, What should I do now? So always, like weekends, I get to the weekend, I'm like, Oh, my made any plans. Boring. Unless a friend has forced plans upon me. And then like, so, anyway, I really want to get out of that. Because, you know, it's nice to have a friend who reaches out to you like me, that doesn't do that. And my friends know, right? And I'm not, it's not I'm saying I never reached out to friends, because I do. But it's a real, like, mental energy taking thing when it shouldn't be. Anyway, those are the symptoms. They're the big things that really caused me distress. And then I did some online tests. And it was kind of like play this puzzle and follow this dot around the screen. And some of the tests I scored really well on like 100%, and some of the dust Scott and Marie lajuan. Overall, my cognitive ability was something like 300 out of 800, which is the low side of normal, which has nothing to do with intelligence, it's more how is your brain working? And what is it good at what it's what what is it? Maybe not so good at and so the thing that I really struggled with was remembering strings of numbers. So they'll be like, remember this number 17294842 You know, like that. And then I'm like, 172 you know? So apparently 10% of adults have undiagnosed ADHD. And if apparently the psychologist also, who also specializes in gender affirmation, like writing reports, so people can get gender affirmation surgery. She said that 50% of people who are gender queer, also are neurodivergent, autistic, ADHD, whatever. And I was like, Ha, she said something like the similar thing that's happening in the brain with gender is something similar that's happening with neurodivergent neuro divergence. On one on one wow. So if you if you are a fellow, gender queer person, or if you're a human with a brain, or if you were a woman, it also way less diagnosed, and your adult to weigh less diagnose 85% of people who adults who have ADHD are not diagnosed. I happen to have some Adderall in my medicine cupboard because I was given it by a doctor 12 years ago. I have no idea why the psychologist is like, that's another sign that you're autistic. Because I couldn't remember. And so I've been trying taking a low dose of Adderall and you know, it feels like I can hear for the first time. It feels like I 75 milligrams, but it feels like and it's 12 years old so it's not this probably less potent. Maybe you can kill me who knows. But anyway, I ended yet.

You know, when you're underwater, and you can hear music, and you can still, you can hear still hear sound, but it's, it doesn't sound right. And imagine you lived your whole life underwater. And you're like, that's how sound sounds. It feels like I've taken my head out of out of the water. Now I can see and hear clearly. And it's not also muddled. And I didn't know that my head was metaphorically underwater. And it just feels like calm. It's almost like you don't know the way that you're feeling in your brain is not normal until you get a medicine. Medication that makes it different. And you're like, Shit, this is what quote, normal brains feel like, oh, heads. You're just walking around just just with a brain that clear? What? Yeah, weirdos. Yeah, so I have just got a blood test and check my heart today because because this stimulant medication ADHD stimulant medication, so you need to make sure that your heart is good, and everything else is good. So So then I'm gonna start next this time next week on proper medication. And then you kind of ramp it up. So yeah, next podcast. I'll tell you how I'm feeling. If it works, if it doesn't work, what's whatever, blah blah, blah, blah. bluh bluh bluh it makes me feel better. I know with my my at home experimentation. It's it's so far has helped. And I'm you know, I'm just taking me at random like one if I've got a busy day of this low dose of of Adderall anyway. Yeah. So if you're thinking like, I think I could be ADHD, just maybe just keep a list on your phone. And when you when you see some ADHD meme or something, and you're like, everyone does that, do they? Do they? Because I was thinking in a wolf. My do that. And I'm not I'm not neurodivergent. Yeah, that was clue that the clue that I was neurodivergent? Hey, did you know so that's the end of the ADHD stuff. By the way. ADHD is probably why I'm good at just talking to myself on a podcast, right? Who knows what amazing things I can do because of ADHD. So we're talking about Dei, big, fat problem, did you know that I have a consulting side of my business called weight inclusive consulting. Where I teach humans, businesses, companies, teams, about size inclusion. Now, if you didn't know now you do weight inclusive consulting. The URL for my website is weight bias training.com I'm changing that I just bought weight inclusive consulting. I'm like, Why did I not make the fucking URL? Weight inclusive consulting is my business. It's called weight inclusive consulting. I think I did research and weight bias training was like a top here on what people actually Google. So anyway, I'm gonna keep that that URL in the background. So anyway, weight inclusive consulting, I've not done it yet. So now I've told you, I'm gonna have to do it in the next week. And something that I see because I'm talking to di people I'm talking to so by the way, if you don't know what the EI is, is diversity, equity and inclusion. And the big companies will have a DI team and medium companies might have one di person smaller companies might bring in consultants and a lot of companies do nothing. But that there has been a big push in recent years after George Floyd's murder, to address the EEI whether it's, you know, really actually address it or just looked like they're addressing it. Who knows. But anyway, it's been a topic for for a number of years. And Di Di, consultants and education has been around since the 1960s. Anyway, the big issue that I see is that anti fat bias is never, not never almost never seen as something that's a priority for diversity training. So I did an experiment where I messaged hundreds of people on LinkedIn in dei world, and I said, and my message was just a quick question. Have you ever come across anti fat bias training or any training to do with size diversity? Guess how many people said that they had? And I also surveyed I did this on my Instagram stories, I 50,000 followers 5050 something. Guess how many people said yes and no below? Up until that point, actually the day after I had someone saying, Yes, I ran a I ran a, I ran a training. And I was like, amazing. And fortunately, they said, what they told me about the training, I was like, oh, there, they were in the straight size body. And I was like, No, that's fucked up, man. Because they were saying, Yeah, we talk about the extremes of body size, from really small to really extreme big. I was like, ah, that's not the right language. So 69% of people who I didn't, I did Instagram Stories said that they had had dei training, but zero said that they had had training on anti bias. And then I made a post about my findings. And, and wonderfully, we had some people in the community said that, yes, they have done trainings with anti fat bias, but it was limited. So I was like, well, that's great news. Where you want it to be out there, you know. And I think there's a couple of reasons about this is that one, because body size in most locations is not a protected class, you know, like how race and gender and sexual orientation etc, are protected classes. So the legally you're not allowed to discriminate against people. I mean, people just still do, obviously, and court still allow that to happen. Remember, like the people who were trying to get a wedding cake for their queer wedding, and they were denied service? And then the Supreme Court was like, Yeah, that's cool. That's not illegal. Because the people were religious, who were making the cake. Anyway. So what I think is, is, there's no laws. And so we're like, so I feel like company leaders or dei leaders on the whole, and obviously not everyone, like, well, we don't have to cover this. So we won't. The other side of it is that many people in dei are really anti fat. It pains me to say, you know, when someone isn't Ei, I think, Oh, I thought before I got into the EI, I thought people into EI would be super, super forward thinking and be on the cutting edge of all diversity things. And guess what? They're not. They're not. They're not. It's really I find it really disturbing. I find it really, really disturbing.

And a lot of queer folks have a ton of anti fat bias. I mean, I've been talking to a lot of dei people recently, and honestly, they've been the people who've said the most egregious things to me, honestly, like not, listen, when I say egregious, I mean, like, mildly, mildly offensive, but kind of stuff like that your your relative that you don't see very often what you would roll your eyes at that type of thing. Not like, Hey, you're fat loser, you know, not like that. But stuff that is surprising, surprising, because they're meant to be in that world, but they just haven't been exposed to it. Right? And we all have areas that we don't know about, right? Sometimes people no sane people might be talking to me being like, What the fuck, Vinny knows nothing about ABC. You know, I could be the doing the same thing about a different topic that I'm don't know that I don't know about right. Now, what we know about how fat people to treat at a work is it is not good. It's not good, right? Just so a kind of overview of how fat people are treated, just in case anyone's listening, listening and they're like, do I do I have a case that I can convince my manager to get this training from Vinay or someone else? Or, you know, in in get some training in our company? Here's like an overview of stuff. Here's some overview. Like I'm gonna read some some Thorens. Okay, so quote, the owner of a shoe store tells an employee that they they will be fired if they do not lose 35 pounds in six weeks. a retirement home seeking a nurse's aide rejects a qualified applicant solely because of their weight and appearance. According to Human Rights registration legislation across Canada such actions by employers are acceptable. This is despite The fact that objective the objective of human rights led to Shetland legislation is to ensure dignity and respect for all Canadians by protecting them from discrimination. In fact, the two scenarios listed above outline actual events that occurred in Canada. Carolyn Maddox had been a sales clerk at Vogue shoes in St. Catharines, Ontario for 17 years, when the owner of the store told her that she must lose weight, or have her employment terminated. Sandra Lynn Davidson was a nurse's aide who applied for an open position at a retirement home in Melville, Val Melville, Saskatchewan. Despite her being completely qualified and claiming to be an excellent health she was rejected from the position for the sole reason that she was fat. Here's a quote from an NPR piece called the weight bias against women in the workforce is real. That says, Pat, you think I eat too much? Ginni Rometty asked her boss, Pat O'Brien at IBM more than 30 years ago. O'Brien was talking to Rama tea about her weight, exhorting her to get in quite good physical shape if she wanted to become a high level executive. Rama T recounts she she'd been quote chubby as a girl, gaining and losing weight was a cycle she was all too familiar with. But it was the first time her appearance had come up as an obstacle to her career aspirations that we didn't stop her. Rama T went on to become the first female CEO of IBM in its 100 year history. She recounts this incident in her memoir, good power released last month. So this is a story from 2023. She actually gained weight after that, that conversation, so her weight didn't hinder her own career. But rahmati acknowledges that women are judged more harshly than men on appearance in the work place. And she laments it has that nothing has changed. Indeed, study after study over decades has shown that workplaces can impose an unfair weight penalty on women who were seen as fat. By the way, these things that I'm quoting from, I'm gonna put the links to everything in the show notes, but I'm editing it as I speak by removing the Oh words and not telling you reading out the shitty weight bias stuff that's in there because all of these all these fucking articles on Hey, by the way, weight bias is real and it sucks. All have so much fucking weight by so much anti fat, because you can be like, hey, this terrible thing happened. Dude, you know, there's no Oh, word epidemic and everyone's really fucking fat. Oh, we shouldn't be mean to the vase. Like now? Yeah. So it was interesting that it says Rama T says that her weight didn't hurt hinder her own career, but I wonder if it did, but because she still managed to become CEO. She's not perceiving the ways that it did because she got that coveted position. But is she paid less? Did it take her longer to become CEO? Did she have to prove herself even more? I would assume Yeah. Especially and she's a woman and I don't know what what race she is. And if she has other marginalized identities, gonna presume he's white? Because I mean, if it's a first woman CEO in IBM's history, there probably is probably it's gonna be a white woman. Right? Because they're not going to probably limit let's just Google it. Let's google it. Yeah, she's white. She didn't She's not fat. Well, she is she's not fucking fat for fuck sake. The slightly chubby whatever, blah blah blah. She's talking about it. Okay, let's look a picture from 1980. No, for fuck sake. Whatever. She's allowed to not be fat. No, the way that the way that the way that that's described makes it sound like she's she's fat right? Which she didn't actually say that. She said that she would be a chubby little girl. She didn't say that she was a chubby adult or whatever. Anyway, whatever. She's allowed to be thin. But yeah, she's what? So continuing on with that, that, that article, women apparent penalize while men are spared. Quote, heavier women tend to earn less. The Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis said in a 2011 report which analyzed the results of multiple studies on the topic. These penalties have not only increased over the past few decades, but continue to increase as women age. However, men don't seem to face with similar weight bias. Some studies have found even found that white males seen as small fat actually earn more. However, The wage penalty for women who were seen as small fat was consistent was consistent in each study, economist David Limpert, who worked for the US government for over a decade found in his analysis, that an increase of 10% in a woman's woman's body mass, decreased her income by 6%. So 10 plus an increase of 10% and a woman's BMI, decrease the income by 6%. This wage cut comes on top of the fact that women already earn 20% less on average than men in the US. So when you add the penalty for being a woman, plus the penalty for being fat, for instance, that net penalty is quite large. There's an emperor who worked for the Bureau of Labor Statistics when he did the analysis. Yeah, and as well, what they're missing here is what I just mentioned, is if they are also marginalized, in other words, in other ways, so if they're a woman, what if they're racialized? What if they're disabled? What if they're neurodivergent? What if they're trans, you know, what if they're, etc, etc. And so it's all like layering on top, the weight is just the one thing. And interesting how the men thing. I don't think that it says men are spared that's not accurate from what I've seen, is that men who are smaller fat are more likely to get into CEO positions and women who are smaller fat. But I don't think that saying them being spared is accurate because they are still harmed, but maybe less so. Continuing the bias towards people seen as fat has worsened over times, at Harvard University's a Harvard University study analyzed data from over 4 million tests of attitudes between 2007 and 2016. By the way, there's an Harvard i a t test. So just Google Harvard, I 80. And wait, and you will see you're able to take a test for free to see your bias your weight bias. I have weight bias towards fat people. That's what it turned out of like, even like, Oh, I love the face. Oh, I love them. Anyway. So if you're curious, then you can go and have a little look and get your friends to do it or whatever. And they'd be like, Oh, God, oh, maybe you'd be happily surprised. So anyway, the analysis found that while biased towards sexual orientation, race and skin tone decreased in that period, the period was from oh seven to 16 2016. weight bias increased by 40%, particularly in the early years of the study.

It's very disturbing that weight bias is increasing as the number of people who are experiencing it are also increasing. And that's where they went into, oh my God, there's so many fat people. As women age, the effect of weight on their wealth gets worse and the NIH published a report that found that the financial net worth of of fat people aged 1651 to 61 was 40%. lower than that of straight size peers, the same cohort of Women's Network fell even more to 60% of their counterparts. When they were 57 to 67 years of age. No such pattern could be found for men the report found that women started work with low wages throughout their careers received less frequent rate raises and and promotions leading to an impact big impact in the cumulative wages as the age research also found that women climb higher in the ranks that as women climb higher in the ranks, it can get worse. In fact, female executives in the top echelons can see as much as a 16% wage penalty then fun time that thick so a kind of quick roundup of of the kind of steps I'm going to this is an Instagram posts I'm going to share so you don't need to worry about you don't need to worry about making it or whatever because remembering it because I'm I'm going to this there's gonna be it's gonna be on Instagram. Overall participants of a of a study reported negative implicit and explicit attitudes attitudes towards fatness and I believe that fatness is controllable. So the study in this study that we're talking about, the study findings contribute to the evidence that fat people are discriminated against in the hiring process and support calls for policy development. The next study or or Lincom, the grim reality of being a female job seeker. There's a website called Fairy God boss. So it's not a study. It's just data from this web. So I asked 500 hiring professionals to view images of women and describe their first professional appearance. These women had distinctly different hairstyles outfits tone, skin tones, facial expressions and body types. 20% of the hiring professionals chose to describe the photo of the heaviest looking woman as quote, lazy, while this adjective was selected less frequently for every other woman pictured. Additionally, 21% described her as unprofessional and only 18% said that she had leadership potential. Only 15.6% of respondents said that they were considered hiring her. They have the pitch, they have a picture. I don't know if it's the picture that they showed. It's of a white woman who looks like a small fat person wearing a gray suit, with slicked back dark hair with a white shirt looks clean, tidy professional is smiling. Yeah, so it's a smaller fat person. So I wonder if they had pictures of larger fat people? What would happen and what if there are other variables as well, including race, ethnicity, etc, etc. Okay, the next study says, fact people are paid between 9020 $2,000 less a year than smaller counterparts. This is from 2010 study. Let's take a quote from it. What may be more surprising is the degree to which employers also seem to have internalized the notion that employees weight matters. Rowling's comprehensive comprehensive review suggests that fat individuals are rated as being less desirable as subordinates, co workers and bosses and they are viewed as less conscience conscience conscientious, less agreeable, less emotionally stable and less extroverted than the straight size counterparts. Even though the stereotypes are inaccurate, it appears that in the United States fat employees are viewed by their employers as lazy and lacking in self discipline. Rowling's review also revealed that fat women are consistently judged more harshly in the workplace than fat men. Griffin reported that 60% of fat women and 40% of fat men describe themselves as having been discriminated against in the course of employment. Next study says if a woman was a stone heavier stoners 14 pounds, that's a British measurement. It was a stone heavier for no other reason than her genetics, this would lead to having her her having an income of 2940 pounds less. Let's see what that is three kg. Great British barons to US dollars. 3700. So, if a woman was 14 pounds heavier for no other reason than her genetics, this will lead to her having an income of what do we say $3,700 US dollars less per year than a comparable woman of the same height who was 14 pounds lighter. Fine, and that is from a study of 119,000 men and women have British ancestry. What the fuck that means British ancestry? Does that mean that they're white? Is that a way of saying that white, white, this see how plugin bias is baked into studies? Anyway, the 100 and 119,000 men and women no mention of gender queer people between the ages of 37 and 73. Fun. According to research, over 40% of people with high body weight report they have experienced weight bias from employers and supervisors. Next study, hire white folks are less likely to be promoted be company CEOs and then be in client facing position. Now, we do have laws we do have laws. There's a organization called fat the legal is called flare flare project. You can go find it, if you need help because you've been discriminated against at work at work because of your size contact them. But we do have laws. And we have laws in the US. We don't have anything in Canada. The in the US we've got laws in Binghamton, New York, Madison, Wisconsin, Michigan sate state, New York City, New York, San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Urbana, Illinois, Washington, DC and then we have legal cases or legal precedent from state of California and state of Washington and so those legal precedent legal cases would be that there's no official law but they someone has won a discrimination case based on weight probably under disability protections, because that's one way around it is to say that wait is disabling for you. And therefore, you're not allowed to be legally allowed to be fired or discriminated against or whatever because of that, which is a disgrace gray area, right? Because a lot of times, folks are not disabled, or disabled by their body. So organization organizations need to get on board because even though it's not everywhere it's come if common, it's coming. Many people are support, getting protections for people for their body size and shape. And that also includes height. It's, it's a popular policy that people want to, to adopt. And some of these things like this. I think the first one was in Michigan State in 1974. And then I think San Fran was from 1991. So some of these are not new. Right. And of course, New York, happened in the end of 2023. And that was a big thing. And that was supported by by DOE. And flare, which I just mentioned, and of course Nafa, which you should go and support Nafa which is a fat legal rights organization. We also have Asda as well. Okay. So I asked people, I asked people their experiences, right, so this is all you know, studies and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, but I wanted to hear some things from humans. And I asked you, I asked you to, first, your experience has been fat in the workplace. And also I asked you, do you think the there's a hope that you would get be able to get fat liberation to EI Training? Let's answer that one. First. People were like, Fuck no. Someone said, in my offices, I'm in my office's dei committee, and frankly, I'm scared to bring it up. I feel Yeah, I feel Yeah. The next person said our dei director is entrenched in diet culture. It's never going to be part of the plan.

I wish but I don't think it'll ever be accepted as important in workplaces dei spaces. Again, so many people live in bigger bodies, right. So why that book is no one talking about this. So this is what I wrote in my article which is on my website, my weight bias training.com website. More reassuring How reassuring reassuringly, however, 20.8% of respondents speculated their company would be open to including anti fat bias in their DEI efforts. 25% said it would be a maybe but unfortunately, 51.4% said it would likely be a no. Okay, so people's experiences, the diet talk people literally saying fat people are disgusting. I've been waiting for a uniform that fits for over a year. The chairs are not made for fat people, but lunchroom tables and chairs are in a fixed position. My boss openly makes fat jokes. I have to swallow fat phobic comments reluctantly. It sucks. No support, but plenty of workplace weight loss initiatives. Someone else shared my bosses demanded after an addiction prevention talk that I bring a kind of certificate from my doctor saying I don't have a food addiction. This kind of talk is for addictions where your senses are impaired. So you can't take proper care of clients. They presumed I was addicted to food because I'm fat. Holy fucking shit. I have no words. I if that happened to me, I would be filled with rage. filled with rage. Can you imagine? Oh wow. Those people need some training. Next person says when the COVID testing centers opened here in Germany and staff were desperately needed. I wanted to help them and work there but I couldn't because they didn't provide protective overalls for fat people. They told me to wear a gown made of permeable fabric in which not all my body would have been protected while the straight size people got the overalls so I declined because I didn't want to risk my house. You just You just risky life. You just risk your life because we can't be bothered to order overalls that fit different body sizes. I wonder as well like think Like, you know, when people are doing X rays, they wear the lead overalls, and I'm wondering things like that of would they come in bigger sizes? No, I bet you don't. I bet you they don't. Yeah. And I wonder about other health and safety things. What about people who are working on construction sites, and they are in harnesses. I wonder if they ever are denied accessible safety equipment. PPE. There's a story that came out last year and I was trying to find the resolution to it. It was a flight attendant who was suing Spirit Airlines because she was fired. For not fitting in a four point harness seatbelt thing now that the story was sensationalized, what by right wing media who were like, this woman says that she was fired because she's fat, and she never more like, look at her. She's so she's so ignorant. You know, if you can't fit the seatbelt, then you can't be a flight attendant. But what the real story was, underneath the all of the bias that she was getting thrown was that she was training. And in the training course, she sat in this chair, and she fitted the four point harness so that you know, when that goes from your shoulders, and your waist, right, versus just over your lap, you fit and she passed the shoe. She was then on an air plane. And on the airplane. She didn't fit it. And apparently, they're not allowed to use seatbelt extenders. Why? I don't know, maybe it makes it less another point where something could fail. So it's less safe, maybe? Maybe, I don't know. Maybe they could and they just haven't. So she was escorted off the plane fun. Can you imagine Oh my god. And then she was put on, on leave. And then she was told you have three weeks to lose enough weight and fit in the harness. And so she tried three weeks later, she still couldn't fit in the harness. So she was fired. What her complaint was, was not size discrimination, but racial discrimination because she's she's black, another flight attendant who was White had the same issue, but was given longer to lose weight in order to fit into the, the harness. And so that's the basis of this. This lawsuit against Spirit Airlines, the media didn't come didn't report it. They didn't you know, the right wing stuff. They were just like, look at her. She's so fucking greedy. The comments, don't even don't don't look, don't don't google and don't don't go do it. But that's a real, that's a real issue there. But, you know, it made me think about well, she doesn't have because it depends where she was in the US. She was from the US, I think Spirit Airlines as a US company, right? She doesn't have probably legal protections for body size. And as well, companies would say, Well, it's a safety issue. And so we need someone to do the job, who has a certain body size. And in some cases that might be legitimate, you know, if there are there if there someone can't do a job because of how their body operates. And it's a core feature of the job, then that makes sense. So this is where people this is where right when people get their knickers in a twist is they think that when fat people what fat people want is for companies to be forced to hire someone who is not able physically to do the job. And that's not what fat folks are looking for. Now, when we say I'm not able to do the job, I think there's a lot of instances where that person would be able to do the job like for example, this flight attendant is it a legitimate safety thing that they can't use a seatbelt extender? then fair enough, but is it is it is it because you know a lot of this stuff is is based on anti fatness and other other type of bias right. And is it a core part of the job? You know, they you know, right wing people really just really just go to the extreme of like ridiculousness, you know, it's like someone who was Say for example, there's a disabled person, and the job was to, you know, do something that then they weren't physically capable of, you know, do backflips or something? I don't know, be a circus performer, I don't know. But even then, you know that there's other ways that they could do the job, right? You know, I'm just thinking, well, they can do this and that and whatever. But, you know, it's not it's, it's, that's not what's happening. Is that a fat person who's, who isn't able to do a certain job? You know, he's being like, well, you, you have to give me the job. Because if you don't, it's discrimination. It's when people are perfectly qualified to do the job or good at their job. And they're being discriminated against because of fatness and nothing else. Is is what it is. And so anyway, if you were having those feelings of like, sounds like maybe they should, they should have been fired or whatever, you know, want to take this stuff with a pinch of salt when we're hearing these these things from from media, even if it's not right wing, there's still mainstream media has a lot of bias towards many different people. And we have to kind of unpick it and be like, what's really happening here? Is this. Is this true there soon? Yeah. So what to do what to do, what to do what to do, with I feel really feel that we're stopped. we're way behind on understanding about fat bias compared to

other areas. And I'm not I don't agree with the, with the sentiment, when you know, when people say it's the last acceptable form of discrimination. That's not that's not accurate. There's not that is not accurate. It can feel like that if you are in left leaning spaces that and you're with people who are interested in social justice, that they would happily defend, you know, women's rights, but when it comes to making fun of Donald Trump, they immediately go and say, look at his he's fat, and he's got a small penis, which I mean, that's transphobia and anti fatness. So it can feel like, hang on in my spaces in my space. In my liberal, left leaning spaces. People don't make these types of jokes, but they will make these jokes and they will comment on people's weight and stuff. And absolutely, that's absolutely true. The left has a huge problem with anti fatness they also have still, you know, so much bias and other areas that we're probably not picking up on. But what we I think what people are referring to when they say it's a less acceptable form of discrimination, is that in moderate or right, right, leaning spaces, people in moderate spaces people people happily make in left leaving spaces, make those fat jokes. But anyway, so what I'm saying is, in right and moderate put in places, they're making fat jokes, they're making jokes about everyone they are they are excluding everyone, not just fat people. So I think that's where that saying comes from is we see in our spaces are more liberatory spaces that people are cool with anti fatness. But in the general population, anti fatness is not the last acceptable form of discrimination because they're our bigger thing for the best of my mind, man. They are. I mean, just right now, like all the anti trans bills that have been passed, right? That's just one example of how committed they are to discriminating against queer trans people. You know, the, they're not doing they're not creating anti fat bills, right? We're not seeing bills coming out saying fat people are not allowed to work in this community, whereas we're seeing bills coming out saying drag queens are not allowed to work in this community. Right. So we want to remember that anti fatness anti fat bias is a problem. However, it's not the only problem and it's not it doesn't trump all other types of oppression and it's all interconnected anyway. I mean, you know anti fatness is anti blackness is is ableism is classism is capitalism. It's all interconnected. So just kind of a little thing there of just in case you know, people are saying saying that, and like shit, I used to fucking say that too. I know maybe like 678 years ago, I remember putting a comment on Facebook and then someone said actually, it's not and I was like, oh shit, your eye. Your eye. Yeah, not to diminish, not to diminish how awful anti fatness is and how the how we're so behind. We don't have laws to protect US whereas other communities have laws to protect them, but those laws are, you know, been scraped back and people are, are breaking those laws anyway. So you know, we all need to be free, we all need to be free. So anyway, if you are a leader in a company and you might want to bring anti fat bias training to your workplace, I can do that I like doing fun, energetic non shaming type training is my is my thing. And I mean shit in a in a few weeks, I'm going to be doing a training that's just 15 minutes long. So great idea, as concept as Call Center has its struggle for to get people off the phones, right? Because that's kind of a pressurized, you know, you need to be on the phone, and every minute is accounted for type thing. Anyway, so they have a 15 minutes for learning every week, which I think is great. And, yes, I'm doing a 15 minutes on anti fatness. And so that'd be fun. It'd be fun. So anyway, I can do do do something short or something more in depth. Also training dei teams, and actually actually, that reminds me, shit, I can't believe almost forgot about this, I have a new training coming up, which is a training just from me. Just for me, it's from me. Dismantling anti fat bias in the workplace, a training for leaders and dei professionals. So this is for people who probably know stuff about diversity, you know a lot about diversity, equity and inclusion but wants to be like, really knowledgeable about the anti fat bias side of things. It's on the 12th of June. That's 12pm, PST, 3pm PST, it's two hour training. It's like a 90 minute training 30 minute q&a Replay available 97 us doll heads or two payments of 49. If you would like a 50% off price that contributes towards economic justice, just email me and I'll give you a code. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, shit. You can even send it if you've got a DI person that that your company, you can just send the link to them and be like, Oh, this looks good. Go do it. Go do it. Or if you want to come along, that's that's cool as well. Yeah. So I want to make it make it accessible. Because a lot of times these, these trainings can be really expensive for people. Yeah, so there you have it, I'll put the link for that in the show notes. Doing it. Now. I'm doing it now. I'm dominant now. And if you want to follow me on my go to my work, the weight inclusive consulting website, then I'll put the link for that in the show notes as well. If you appreciate this fat content and would like to contribute towards the costs of making the podcast, go to Kofi K, oh, dash f i. Fierce fatty. The link will be in the show notes, and links to links to all the studies I've mentioned today. Like I said, like, here's another study, here's another study. But I'm going to link to all of those studies as well so that you have that. And those articles that I read from two heads up, there's loads of anti fatness and all of the stuff all of the studies, they all use our words, they all are on the kind of like, I don't mean to be mean to fat people, but they are gross. You know, and they're on that train. So just a heads up on that, you know, you're not going to die if you look at them, but just a heads up that there is bias there. All right. So if you've got any questions about ADHD stuff, I'm not an expert because I just found out about this stuff. But if you're curious about so far the process or whatever you send me a DM on the Instagrams or whatever will send me an email. Oh, wearing contact lenses today for the first time in like 10 years. It's so weird if I was putting in when I was putting in the contact lenses I felt very silly because I was being a baby. I wasn't being baby I was just being a normal sensitive human and being like, oh my god close my eyes. It was very hard to get in took about 10 minutes away. So look at me with my magic eyeballs. Lasers can shoot from them now because I've got these contacts and I just wanted to wear contacts because the bridge of my nose can get saw from my glasses. I think it's from the style of glasses that I wear or something. But I can get like these not welts but pressure patches I'm sure you know if your glasses were on my nose and I want to give them a rest. So but if these Contact Lenses feel weird anyway whatever I'm gonna stop talking you don't even know about my contact lens life. Alright, thank you for hanging out with me today remember you're worthy you always were you always will be and stay fierce fatty above

Unknown Speaker 55:27

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Episode 186 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• The misleading term "O word epidemic" in relation to fatness. 0:00

• Obesity trends and life expectancy. 5:24

• Flawed assumptions about obesity and health. 8:51

• Weight stigma and its impact on society. 16:04

• Fatness-related health costs and bias. 21:53

• Fatness and its perceived societal burden. 27:38

• Fatness, cost to society, and ethics. 34:56

• Healthcare, stigmatization, and community support. 39:29

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 186, But aren't we in an O word epidemic? Oh, let's do it.

Hello, welcome to this episode of the face value podcast. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. My pronouns are they them, I'm so excited to talk to you today to be with you today to be in your ear today. Thanks for choosing the first high podcast to listen to your request, hey, if you want some training at your company, if you have a company and you have to EI, EI, person or dei group or an employee resource group or a dei committee, or maybe you have none of those things, you're like, wow, I wish I did my my company. But hey, I don't know if you know this, but I do corporate training. So yeah, and my so I don't scare people off. My corporate training isn't under the first fatty brand, because I feel like people are scared. Not everyone, obviously you like it. But the corporate side of my business is called weight inclusive consulting. And, yeah, if you ever want to know more about that, you can go to weight bias training.com I have a couple of resources. If you go there, weight bias training.com, I have a free this is a fat positive space poster. So you can print that off and put that your desk in your office home, wherever. And also a guide How to Create a size inclusive workplace. Both of those are free guides for you on not both of them are free guides. That's one free guide and one free poster. So just go to weight bias training.com. And there you go, little present for you. Today we're talking about the O word epidemic. And in case you get triggered or get activated when you see these headlines about the cost of fatness and society and what a terrible burden that people are. And you feel kind of lost because you think well, aren't there more fat people around? Aren't fat people are fat people are burden. They're saying that fat people cost $17 trillion a second, is that true? We're gonna be talking about that today so that you can feel a little bit more confident about how these figures are constructed, what they miss out what they include, which they shouldn't include, then just a little bit of history about this this stuff. So first off, I want to tell you what epidemic means. So, from the dictionary epidemic, affecting or tending to affect a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population, community or region at the same time. Excessively prevalent, contagious, characterized by a very widespread growth or extent of relating to constant constituting an epidemic. Okay, so affecting a large disproportionately large number of individuals. Okay, so let's let's say that most people live in bigger bodies. And with the the way that they're saying it here affect the way you view fat bodies like our fat bodies, something bad and negative and shouldn't be around. Then you would say, Well, I am not affected with fatness, I just am fat, whereas people who think that fatness is bad would say yes, we are affected by a disproportionately large number of individuals within a population. And then the next point here excessively prevalent, Are Fat People excessively prevalent and be contagious to you, but I have never actually infected anyone with my fat. Have you? Have you worked out how we can do that? So we can affect all of the things with our fatness. When that'd be amazing. Just go around and just, you know, rub up against a fat thin person or whatever, you know, two days later, they have a cough. And then you know, all of a sudden they they put on hundreds of pounds. Have you seen that happen? I don't know. I haven't seen it yet. But you know, you know, you never know. And part three of that of that definition is characterized by a very widespread growth or extent off. So are people fatter? People have gotten a little fatter since the 1970s. But straight science people aren't getting fatter. And weight has been relatively stable in population populations for decades. Also, as we are humans are learning to fight diseases and live longer. When we're just getting bigger as humans we're getting taller. Right. And to a little extent, although not really in the 70s since the 70s, but not more recently, our bodies have got a little bit bigger, is it an excessive, prevalent contagious levels? Know, it's simply not? It's just not true that every single year people are just getting bigger and bigger and bigger and it's out of control. And it's just not accurate as to what is happening happening with population levels. And even if it was, even if people were getting bigger, is not making us unwell at a population level level, because we're living the longest in human history. You might be saying, well, hang on, Vinnie. I've heard that quote. The quote is, this generations of generation of kids will outlive will not outlive their parents due to fatness. Remember, there was like a quote, kids are gonna die before they were before their parents. Well, that's, you know, that quote is definitely definitely backed by science. It's definitely not just one dude saying that was his prediction and opinion based on no science at all. Oh, wait, it is a pediatric pediatric gastroenterologist. He was on that. Remember that show? Not sure. It was a movie Supersize Me with Morgan Spurlock. He was on that. And he just thought it he just thought, I think that I think that fat kids and kids are going to die before their parents because they're so fat and disgusting. Has it happened? No. Did he have loads of data and science and evidence and etc. To back up this statement? No, he just picked it out of his ass. So this is the guy that said this is a symbol called William clish. And this is a quote from the O word crisis is a myth by Harriet Brown. And Harriet writes in 2002 William clish, a pediatric gastroenterologist featured on the movie Supersize Me told a reporter from the Houston Chronicle. If we don't get this O word epidemic in check. For the first time in this century, children will be looking forward to a shorter life expectancy than their parents. As caliche later admitted, he had absolutely no evidence for this frightening scenario. It was based on his, quote, intuition, which didn't stop it from being replayed in the media and cited by researchers. So cliche as doomsday scenario lives on in part because it's frightening. Yeah. And it makes a good headline doesn't it does not, doesn't it? Right. And those types of stories sell. People are interested in learning about how fatness or you know, fat people are walking around in, you know, containing the world with their fatness and how other people are awful, right? That sells sells newspapers. It's quite interesting, although, it is not true. What this guy said, but that that sticks that's probably stuck in your noggin. If you've been if you've been exposed to that that's probably stuck in your noggin about how awful fatness is and how this generation who knows what generation is talking about the generation from 2002 is going to have a shorter life expectancy than their parents because of fatness. Yeah, not so great. Also, the categories of what is considered, quote, normal weight, or overweight have changed because of the influence and lobbying of diet companies. They're also arbitrary numbers So, you think the BMI, obviously, we know if you listen to this podcast, the BMI is bullshit. But you think they'd be in my Well, they've calculated something. They've calculated something. No, the categories are 25, to 3035, to 3030, to 3535, to 40, etc. Because rounding to five sounded good.

It just sounded like it was easy to remember. So no actual scientific reason. And the most recent change in 1998 from the National Institutes, which Institute of Health sparked the rhetoric around the quote epidemic, which came from an overnight change in numbers on a chart within a day, millions of people were classes to fat when their bodies had not changed at all. So lobbying from diet pharmaceutical company saying, let's tell everyone they're too fat. And then overnight, someone you know, piece of paper. Yeah, these people are too fat now. Oh my god, we got so many fat people. What the heck? Did anyone actually get fatter? No. On paper they are because we change the definitions and make it make sense. And obviously, the whole premise of Oh word is based on the BMI which is 200 years old and data collected from white sis European men never meant to be a measure of individuals or health. Oh, epidemic presumes that people who fall into higher weight categories are automatically unhealthy, and a burden on society due to increase creased fat tissue on their bodies. And there is no evidence to prove that actually having more adipose or fat tissue on your body leads to poor health outcomes. We just don't have that data. We don't have that information. But what we do know that can cause poor health outcomes is one weight cycling aka going on a diet to subpar or lack of access to health care, and three experiencing anti fatness. We also have great evidence to show that, oh, people have reduced mortality compared to normal weight people, which is called the O paradox. The paradox being hmm, we thought that people were dying all over the place, but they ain't. It's a paradox. We just can't explain it, then. You know, the word paradox means a seemingly absurd or self contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true. So that's a huge study that came from the CDC. And Catherine Fleagle. We have I think we have a whole episode on it. We must have dedicated a whole episode to it. The Oh word paradox just Google the show emotion Misha de paradox. First party and you'll probably find an episode on it. Yes, so why these these speakers are trashes. So you'll see all these headlines. Just a few headlines from the UK which is just so fucking anti fat. Newspaper headlines, Britain's child Oh word disgrace. Next headline we must win. Oh word war for the sake of the NHS. Next one. Oh word Britain. Britain has just fat from The Guardian meant to be a little bit more intelligent. Oh word bigger cost for Britain than war and terror. Britain spending x billion a year dealing with dealing with the healthcare and social costs of an increasingly Oh population study finds study finds is what the study finds is dogshit. So these figures they're not accurate and they assume that weight equals health. So it's numbers are derived from fat people who have health conditions that are associated with fatness, but not known to be caused by fatness. So if a fat person has type two diabetes, then they have a according to this data, they have a condition condition that's caused by fatness. If a thin person has type two diabetes, they don't have a condition caused by fatness. They just have type two diabetes. So you wouldn't then say okay, what's the cost of fineness? Well, let's calculate all the thin people who have type two diabetes well EQ for. That's what the cost of fitness is and on PSAs on society, what they do that with fat people, so there's no way to predict how many people die from fatness in any accurate way. And the reason for this is that there are zero health conditions that have been shown to be caused. Well, there's a big word there caused by fatness and something only fat people get versus health conditions being correlated with fatness and something that people of all sizes get. So that's a that's a big thing there causation correlation. There's nothing that only fat people get that then people don't also get. It's presumed that the presence of a fat body in society means the presence of disease, it's assumed if we have fewer fat people, there'll be then we will be more healthy as a population. And this is this is straight up faulty logic as faulty logic. The next reason why these figures are trash it stigmatizes humans and supports health ism and ableism. So it states that human beings are a burden for a non modifiable identity factor, body size, you're a burden because of something that is non modifiable about you know, human beings a burden, even if they are unhealthy, even if they quote cause their lack of health. All people are worthy of healthcare and disabled people or those with chronic conditions should be seen, at minimum at minimum equally important parts of our society. Another thing is it doesn't consider the cost of anti fat bias. It's which is a huge her huge problem with this, these these figures. So Dr. Khan, Paul Singh, Al, and friends points out in i'll link Ireland to everything in is a more to the equation, weight bias and the costs of a word. So Dr. Singh says points out that most if not all, of the estimated costs of fatness can actually be attributed to anti fat bias. Dr. Angela Meadows demonstrates that anti fat bias has a powerful impact on the health of fat people. Quote, chronic or repeated stress over time can result in multi system biological dysregulation, a concept known as allostatic load which is linked with a wide range of disease conditions including cardiovascular disease, diabetes, hypertension, and cancer. So calculating the cost of fatness without even considering anti fat bias is deeply problematic. And the whole even calculating the cost of fatness and being like oh my god, we're so fat lalala contributions to anti fat bias. So even this whole you know, all of those those really awful headlines existing increases the quote, costs of and of fatness on society, because people are experiencing more anti fat bias. Next, why these figures are dogshit they are used to advocate for the erasure of fat people. In Canada's most recent report on the quote, cost of fatness they point out that they don't really know why people are fat. They don't know how to make people smaller. And also that fat people have reduced mortality compared to quote normal weight people. Okay, let me just reiterate that. We don't know why people are fat. We don't know how to make people small and fat people have reduced more Tality compared to quote normal white people. But they still advocate for more policy and research to erase fat people from society this is a huge list this this this I did a whole episode on this report from Canada about the cost of the cost of Oh word. Oh, my lordy. And I was just reading it being like what the fuck? Hang on, white. You they had all these things? Hey, we don't know why people are fat. Hey, we don't know how to make people thin. Hey, fat people live longer. Oh, but still we need to make fat people disappear. Oh, it was low. Why it's me. Did you read what you just wrote? I just I don't understand I don't understand. Oh.

So all of this fuels fat hate. In a press release in 2022, the UK Government said, oh word costs the NHS a massive 6 billion annually. And this is set to rise over 9.7 billion each year by 2050. The new investment, what investment is it? An investment in weight loss, quote treatments, announced today is expected to save the NHS billions over time and ensure that vital funds are spent on key frontline services. So rhetoric like this, which positions fat people are stealing vital funds from quote, key frontline services deeply contributes to people's perceptions, that fat people are lazy, unintelligent, unhealthy, greedy, generally unwanted and undesirable. And we don't need government sponsored bigotry, although the UK is very good at it. And all this to say there's no reliable way to make fat people into thin people. So let's pretend let's say, you know, fat people are costing the world allegedly billions of dollars every single moment. And fat people are horrible and greedy, and we all will want to be a burden on society and enjoy it and, and all of that. Let's just say that's all true, it still wouldn't matter because we don't have any reliable way to make people smaller. Fat people exist, we always have, we always will. And instead of calculating the burden of fat people being alive, a better use of funds could be to continue to do some research on how to reduce anti fat bias and how to provide all people with equitable evidence based care. Where'd I know weird word. Also, the data in here is if a fat person has anything that's associated with fatness, high blood pressure, type two diabetes, hypertension, whatever it is, that person would then be calculated in the cost of fatness, right? Not only that, these figures also look at things like how many days off? Did a fat person take? Well, if a fat person takes a day off, the reason why they take a day off is because wonder wonder why I wonder why? Because they're fat. Therefore, they're costing society billions of dollars because they took a day off and no, to go, whatever it is that they're going to do, right? It's like watching Netflix, go to the doctor be sick, whatever it is. So they're saying, so looking at this, there's an appendix that sing a owl in in in that piece is talking about the costs of fatness and how it's broken down. And so they look at health, societal and workplace. And it's saying one of the things here, severe Oh, attributed to the increased absenteeism, which cost 5.3 8 billion, and then how much increased absenteeism does severe in quotation marks. Oh, like how many more days are fat people taking? Allegedly? Because of their fatness? A whopping one day. Ha God so a super fat person has more has allegedly takes one day more off in a year than someone who is smaller than super fat. Huh, huh. Could could a super fat person be experiencing? Hmm. Are they taking a day off a whole day? Oh, my God, and they're taking a day off? Because of their fatness? Could they also be experiencing oh shit ton of bias and workplace that's probably not accommodating them in any way. They denied access to health care? Yes. Especially when we're talking about people who are the largest fat people in our society, the amount of shit that they have to go through. Like the list is endless. And could that increased shit they have to go through in every different aspect of their life because of anti fat bias leads to maybe one day extra a year. Huh, I think that could That sounds about right. But let's just No, let's just not let's not consider that. We'll just say they've costing the economy 5.3 8 billion because they're so fun awful, obviously. I mean, Billy's la Leigh and as well if someone dies in their fat been died from fatness it's a comorbidity right someone gets hit by hit by a car. Wow. They died while fat so they died from fatness obviously. Oh, it's just so. So I posted I posted about this on on a very old Instagram. And there's a couple of comments that I wanted to point out is Tigris, who was on the show a few episodes ago said on top of everything you've said here. And even more errors in even more irresponsible reporting. Sometimes the cost of Oh word is the cost of everyone who has a condition associated with being fat, including the cost of treating all the thing people who have that condition. The cost of treating everyone on Earth who has diabetes is not a cost of Oh word. Millions of them people have that. Isn't it just bananas like tigers totally spot on here. So if a thin person has type two diabetes, well, they are they're contributing towards the cost of fatness and society allegedly, they're not fat but hairy M the fat that fat and bought empowerment chick said I read a study recently that talked about the burden of words and the quote, social impact and it gave a figure of 11,463 Euros per person per year. So I read it a little further. These costs included the price of mandatory health insurance, speech therapists, acupuncturists, household expenditures, aka groceries and dining out clothes, transportation costs, transportation costs, attempts at weight loss and social activities. Their conclusion Oh words have a considerable impact The societal costs, sorry, what do straight sides people not pay for food, drink, transport, clothes and socializing? So yeah, these so called research findings will tell you anything you want to hear. So so the other costs in here that that they that is claimed that the cost of fatness is things like giving fat people access. So giving fat people a gown that fits at the hospital, or having a wheelchair that is bigger. So you know, spending on a medical spending. So it's literally the existence of fatness that they're saying costs, but they're not doing the same for the cost of, quote, thinness a core cost, there is no cost to end you know these things. But they're not saying okay, well of our medical equipment. 95% of Ms. Probably less than that, just for like more than that. It's very, like 99% of the medical equipment costs that we we spend our on straight size people on equipment that only hold straight size, people are on blood pressure cuffs that accommodate straight size people 1% 2% Whatever it is, I'm just plucking these numbers out of out of thin air. We spend on equipment that accommodates bigger bodies, which is by the way that a lot of people have bigger bodies, which is so bizarre that we'd have so little equipment for people in bigger bodies. So all of that other cost for medical equipment. That's not a burden. But when it comes to accommodating someone who has a larger body, then all of a sudden that's a cost and a burden. The cost of if Imagine if we if we calculate the cost of fineness. It's so ridiculous. I'd even say you know the cost of thinness and they say oranges and we say cost of fatness Imagine if we calculate the cost of fitness the cost of tenders would be like a medical equipment is almost exclusively only made for thin people, right? So we'd be gone Can't you win in comparison to the cost of equipment for people in bigger bodies? Right. So anyway, health as well diseases and slash complication. Okay, so, you know, that's all diseases that are associated with it. fatness that same people get as well. So that's flawed. Increased life and medical insurance. Okay, so increase life and medical insurance. That is based on the BMI which is total bullshit. And based on weight bias because they're charging fat people more because of the presumption that fat people die sooner and have more fat related conditions, premature mortality and reduced quality of life. Again, we have seen the data to show that actually, people who are smaller fat live longer than people who are quote normal weight and people who are very fat there is not really that much of a difference between them and quote, normal weight people reduced quality of life or reduced quality of life. Well, could that be from anti fat bias years? Next, I look at workplace private monetary losses due to reduced output, job performance and labor income slash profit. So they're blaming fat people now because a company full of company profits, what? They're blaming fat people for monetary losses due to reduced output. Where is the data that fat people have reduced output? Where does this come from? And with CertainTeed absent absentee to absentee ism, including paid sick leaves Oh, look at you know, fat people using the benefits that they are legally entitled to look at that. That's terrible. Just just blinking in disbelief at this. So the societal that they say is increased economic burden slash reduced tax income. Fat people are paid less because of because of this is the way that society views fat people because of shit like this. And so fat people are paid less. So therefore fat people are a burden because they're paid less because of anti fat bias.

What I increased tax revenue use for health care. Just where is where's the data? We were what? Higher treatment physician and equipment costs. Are we saying that the Do we have the same data for people in smaller baggy bodies? Fat people are causing longer wait times in primary care in hospitals? If that were true? Could it be could it be? Could it be Could it be because of the absolute dogshit healthcare that many fat people experience means that they're less likely to go to a health care provider because they know they're just going to be told to lose weight? Could it be then when they become very, very sick, then they will need to access a higher level of care? Because they've been ignored? Or even if they do go, then we're just dismissed? You know, just go to some weight. So what So what is the cause? Is it the fat person existing or is it subpar healthcare and anti fabulous? I your your, your your boy. It just you know that so often we take a lot of this stuff for granted. You know, like of course, you know, fat people cost society more money. And you think, Well, of course people are going to use common sense, you know, researchers and people collecting this data are going to use common sense. And of course, they're going to be able to, they look at say, okay, a fat person and say, Okay, let's look at the diseases or conditions or whatever it is. It's definitely caused by fatness. Oh, well, we don't have any evidence. Well, that's okay. We'll just do associated with Okay, so let's just do associated with those two conditions associated with fatness. Okay, so every fat person that has any type of condition that's caused by fatness, right, okay, yeah, yeah. And you know, at that point, is it that point someone should step in and be like, This doesn't sound right. Maybe less, not? Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe we should use more nuance with collecting this data and actually use I don't know, evidence and reliable practices and, and should we be even cost like, do it in a cost of the quote, burden of fat people? Isn't that just an identity? Like fatness? Like if we're doing a call stuff fatness thing. Should we not be doing also a cost of blondeness on society, the cost of tallness on society the cost of having blue eyes on society. Everyone that has blue eyes, if they have, I don't know, a sore toe, then ah, that's the cost of blue eyes for Yeah, those greedy blue eyed people with their sore toes. And the reason why and the reason why the there isn't an I'm sure there are people in the, you know, collecting the data that's like, this is kinda fishy. sound right? This is kind of misleading. There's definitely people in there who were who were who were raising the red flags. Because anti fat bias is so well ingrained in the DNA of our society. It takes a very brave person, especially in that field, imagine you've got a job, and you're getting paid to calculate these costs. Would you really stand up and be like, hey, fat people? You know, they maybe we don't have that data to show. That fatness causes these things and the correlation causation. And is this really ethical to be doing that? No, you probably just keep your head down, collect the paycheck, and align with the common narrative that we have out there. Because, quote, we all know that fatness is this terrible thing. It must be very difficult to have differing opinions or to to steer the ship, because this is huge ship of, of health care and the ship of anti fat bias and say, Oh, maybe all everything that we've been talking about for all of these decades is not really that helpful. It's that's a that's a that's a big thing, right? And then when you have people who are like, Yeah, we fucking love this, we love this data like government saying, like, we need to, we need this data, because we need to understand the burdens that these types of people have on our society. So that we can try and mitigate these costs by trying to get fat people to become thinner people. It makes sense why people want this information in this data, but it's just so misguided. There's so many faulty, faulty faulty premises to so much of this. I wonder if they're gonna if people are going to stop making these reports? Probably Probably not. Because I would suspect that a lot of there's a lot of there is a lot of lobbying from pharmaceutical health care, weight loss companies to to get this type of data, because it shows what a terrible problem quote, fatness is, so therefore, our drugs, our pills, our diets are so needed, because what a better way to show that fat people need not exist is by saying that they cost the world billions of dollars from for for a non modifiable identity factor, which many people believe is modifiable, but it's just we don't have that we just don't have that information to say that it is that we can in any type of meaningful amounts or for any type of you know, length of someone's life. All of this just as Scott milma fucking annoyed me. Something just to talk about is the some people like it on my Instagram have said, well, then they're not this is this is bad because they're not calculating the costs of alcohol use for Yeah, like other things that people perceive as choice based illnesses. Well, I just I don't really agree with with that, because I'll tell you why. Someone who is using alcohol, we know that you know, someone someone using alcohol or someone using drugs or whatever it is, that a lot of the times those people are in an addiction. And we know that that is not a choice, right? I don't want to say you know, even if something that I don't agree with, say I'd know. Someone uses a gun and she shoots her For whatever, I still wouldn't want to be like, Oh, listen, people who shoot their foot are such a cost on society, on our tax dollars, because I think that we shouldn't be talking about humans that way. The other side of that is the cost of allowing guns in society on like, literally guns killing people. Like I think that's, that's really important, obviously. But I think people's personal choices is, I don't, I don't care if someone is using health care, because they're doing something that I have said that I think is bad, because it's got nothing to do with me, right. Because there's some people have that thought of, well, if my tax cut my tax dollars are going to support someone who is outside of, of doing something that I don't like them, that's bad. That's not how I feel, you know, like, I pay taxes and many different types of benefits, I will not get, for example, benefits for you know, I won't have children using the school systems because I don't want kids but I'm really pleased that the kids in our society can go to school, and if people get the access to university or, or kids get reduced dental costs or whatever, or in Canada, there's going to be there's like some dental thing that's coming out next year, people who have a lower income and elderly and children get some parts of some free dental, I'm probably not going to benefit from that. At the beginning. I don't care. I'm pleased that the the elders and young people and very low income people, I would prefer if everyone would get it, you know, just because I want everyone to be happy, and you know, all that type of stuff. So, you know, I feel like the that other way of viewing of like,

I need to get my share and everything needs to be equal, comes from a very conservative and unkind way of looking at humanity. I want everyone to be happy and to be able to access health care and to be feel like they are welcome in society, and not like they are a burden. And I wonder if in the UK, I know I've definitely felt this. So I'm in Canada, in case you didn't know, I'm in Canada, but I'm British Irish. I spent the first couple of decades in my God in the UK. I hope soon it will be like in five years, I would have been spent more time in Canada than in the UK. Oh my that's scary. Anyway, in my experience of being in the UK and accessing the NHS national health services that my belief was my my perception was, do not use the NHS unless you're fucking dying. Unless you are really fucking sick. Don't go to the doctor, don't spend any time talking to the doctor. Unless you know you need to be in there. Quack, quack, quack, just hurry the fuck up, get in, get out and you better be sick. If not, you're a burden on the NHS, those messages. Just constant. That's what that's how I feel. If you're British, you might be like, Yeah, I felt like too. And I felt like you know, that's a very kind of post World War Two, the stiff upper lip, all band together, which you know, all banded together great. But also people deserve health care. And it wasn't until I came to Canada so when I left the UK, I took an inhaler. Pretty much that was all I ever took Nayla came to Canada I got diagnosed with so many things because I felt a little bit more comfortable even though we do have healthcare here. And this is kind of similar situation as a UK. I hadn't been indoctrinated with those messages, have you better fucking be dead before coming in here. And I felt like I could say, Oh, what about this? Now I take loads of different medications because there was things that I was ignoring in the UK that I didn't feel safe enough to go to the doctor and say, Hey, I feel cold and tired all the time. You know, and they're like, oh, it's because you your thyroid is just being is destroyed. Oh, you know, because you think yeah, we're gonna go to the doctor because you're cold and tired. But in Canada, I felt like I could you know and all the other things so anyway anyway was I feel good about that. Yeah, is that I don't want people to feel like that. And I'm sure I'm you know, and I'm sure there are people who are over I don't know if you want to use it overuse. Don't really like the thought of that. If people need help, like and I can just imagine, you know, some some right wing person being like, oh, there's people will go in and go to the doctor every day. And all I've got is a sniffle. And yeah, you know, I'm sure there are people who maybe go to the doctor when they, then they're fine, but obviously something else is going on, right? They obviously need need something from that interaction. So I, I don't know, I just, I just want to be nice, just be nice to everyone I, I, that's the one that I want. So I'm just gonna, you know, put that out there because I'm just feeling very annoyed with all of this stuff that we're talking about humans in this way and, and know that in my world, I'm creating a nice community around me and I do have a nice community around me where we're all kind to each other and, and, you know, my neighbors are all nice, and all my friends are all, we don't talk about each other like that. And so there you go, that's my constellation. I hope you have that. I hope you have that too. You have people around you that make you feel like you're not a burden, and you're not a terrible person for being fat. And if you don't have that, then fat communities out there. And you might say, well, there's no fat community where I live and that's okay, you can access fat community on the internet web.com. So you can just go on the internet and find people, even if it's just following other fat people and joining Facebook groups that have fat people, or watching shows with fat people or reading books with fat people. Ah, segue perfect segue, you might say Feeny, I don't know where to find those things. Guess where you can find those things. And that is in the size diversity Resource Guide, which you can get for $5 If you go and join my kofi. The link will be somewhere around here. Wherever you're listening. Kofi KO fyi.com forward slash first fatter you'll find it for so for $5 Join the fight baby fat here you'll get the size diversity resource guide. And that's going to help me keep making the podcast for you. And bring you fatty goodness every month. All right. So if you want to do that great if not, then you know that's fine. So that's all good. That's all good. No, no pressure. No pressure. You don't you okay, you do you and for the people who are supporting me on cofee. Oh my goodness. You are the best. I really appreciate it. It's I find it so strange that people I had no support my work I didn't want to why I find it strange. But it's just so awesome. It's just so cool. Like, yeah, so thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate you if you are a member on my cofee shout out to you. You're the best. You're the dog's bollocks. You're the What's another word for that? Now I can't think of it as long as I there's another rhyming thing. And that dog's bollocks is not rhyming though is it? So anyway, I'll stop babbling on. Thanks for hanging out with me today. Sending you big fatty hugs. And I will see you in the next episode. Remember to stay fierce fatty, you are worthy you always were you always will be. Sona.

Episode 185 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Weight Watchers and personal growth. 0:00

• Affordable life improvements. 3:12

• Oprah Winfrey's departure from Weight Watchers board and weight loss drug use. 9:39

• Weight Watchers' new weight loss drug and its potential conflicts of interest. 13:27

• Weight Watchers' effectiveness and customer experiences. 20:33

• Oprah's weight loss journey and use of medication. 25:04

• Weight loss, diet culture, and celebrity influence. 29:30

• Body image, weight loss, and fat acceptance. 34:53

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 185, Oprah leaves Weight Watchers bored after using weight loss drug.

Let's do it. Hi

Vinny Welsby 0:26

Hello, Welcome to Fast fatty podcast. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Pronouns they them. How's life? How are you? Welcome back. Welcome back. I'm, uh, I'm feeling very studious. This week, because I've been studying for my citizenship test for Canada. I've been in Canada for 15 years now. 15 years, 15 years. Oh, my God. And I'm just applying for citizenship. And I applied in December. It's March now. So things are processing nice and quick. But I have a they do you have to pass a test 2020 20 question, multiple choice thing. And they give you a this 70 page document to read. And you have to memorize the stuff in it. It's quite interesting. Actually. There's lots of things I didn't know about Canada. And it also interesting to see how much stuff they leave out in regards to the treatment of indigenous communities. And like there was a thing on women earning the right to vote and things like that. And it was like women earn the right to vote. And then I was thinking, hang on, you mean white women? Like they left out that bit, you know, things like that. I'm just thinking, I know about that stuff. But if you didn't know about those little things, and there's lots of things, obviously, I don't know about Canada, and they're not saying so anyways, interesting. So that's what I'm up to at the moment.

Vinny Welsby 1:55

I've got my neighbor's dog here. I'm looking after them. Jackson. So if you hit he's, he just randomly starts going. Oh, so if you hear something like that in the background, it's not that I've imprisoned someone, or I'm abusing a dog. It's just Jackson. He's a little bit of dramatic dramatic. So we're going to be talking about Weight Watchers today.

Vinny Welsby 2:17

But before we start, I want you to one Hey, if you like the show, and you want to keep hearing more episodes of the show, consider donating on COFI link will be in the show notes Kofi for your one dime time donation you can do a monthly donation where you get some free shit

Unknown Speaker 2:36

$5 would be amazing. If you could if you can't, why not write a review? If you don't do any of those things fine. I'm not the boss to hear you do you whatever.

Unknown Speaker 2:47

And to I saw this video on

Unknown Speaker 2:51

on YouTube this guy was saying the things that have improved my life under $100 and I was like, I want to tell you some things that have improved my life under $100 Because there's some things I'm just like, oh my god, you need to get this thing it's so amazing. And I thought well I put little list together I just I just realized another thing so not that you need to buy anything ever. But in case you wanted to like a little no life improvement for not too much money. Here my favorite thing so first ah I fucking love it is my tushy BD

Unknown Speaker 3:27

so it's like a you're attached to any toilet pretty much it's about $100 or less maybe it's like $7 or something in Canadian anyway.

Unknown Speaker 3:39

And it like washes you're so fucking amazing when I use a toilet and they didn't have a bday now I'm just like what is this? You want me to wipe my bum? What you like what was referred to as you but

Unknown Speaker 3:58

it is just

Unknown Speaker 4:00

honestly I can't believe I've I've lived so long you know without a tushy isn't gonna be touchy anyone like tissues? Fine, whatever.

Unknown Speaker 4:10

But yeah, to shape Next, a cordless vacuum so I have a Dyson if you're watching on the video, it's right there hanging up in my kitchen. I have a Dyson. I don't think it matters what you what you have, but the cordless vacuum you know what put in the plug in the wall just would send me like I couldn't handle that extra step of putting a plug in the wall and so hoovering or other you've probably save acumen if you're not British hoovering was such a like a huge ordeal. Now I just after dinner, I can just go Hoover takes one minute stick on the wall. Amazing. Just ah.

Unknown Speaker 4:56

Okay, so chewing gum. I love chewing gum.

Unknown Speaker 5:00

I fucking love chewing gum. And so this is probably not relevant to you at all. You know what the fuck, I don't need this. But I have chewing gum at like three different stations in my house, chewing gum. Next to my desk, I have chewing gum, at the my coffee table and also next to my bed. I'm just, I just love chewing gum and having to go somewhere else in my apartment to find it. When it's just right there. Love it. So I wonder if you have something that you really like, like no like a lip balm or something and you just

Unknown Speaker 5:30

There you go.

Unknown Speaker 5:32

Next, a good phone charging cord. So I used to always buy, you know, the cheapest version of a charging cord because I you know, whatever, they're all the same, but have to be replacing them all the time. So I bought one that was like $20. And I was just like 20. Nolan's

Unknown Speaker 5:51

but guess what, it's an instead. So yay, me. Next, people kept banging on about this for ages, my sister kept being like, Oh my God, you need to get the analysis like, No, this is silly. But I eventually tried it and got it. And it has literally changed my life. And that is an airfryer I make so much in my air fryer. So think about anytime you put the oven on, if you're a single person as well, or maybe you and one other person

Unknown Speaker 6:23

put into the oven and you have to wait for it to warm up. It's just so big. It takes so long. But the airfryer is like an oven, but it's really quick. You just literally chuck it in, you've got a little timer, like you just you can even just like put some chicken in and then put it on and then leave the house walk the dog come back and you dinner's ready. It is so good. And it's so quick. It's just everything I put so much in there. And if you wanted to heat up leftovers

Unknown Speaker 6:53

as a Maryland, okay, so I didn't pay for this, but someone gave me this a yeti mug. And I was just like, I'm not really like a mug person like in regards to like I wouldn't buy like a tumbler or something because I just think let's say like this seem really expensive. What's the point, but someone gave me a yeti literally use it 99.9% of the time I'm drinking hot liquid, I just I that's all I use. Unless I don't know that literally, that's all I use it because it keeps your drink hot for so long. And I forget that I have a drink and it gets cold. So with the Yeti, I'll have like a coffee in the afternoon that I'll make and then it will be still hot by the time

Unknown Speaker 7:41

it's the end of the day, because it'll take me that long to drink it.

Unknown Speaker 7:46

So it's amazing. It's amazing. I don't know how much a Yeti is, but it is definitely under $100. Okay, so on my coffee table, I have a lamp, it's like a high coffee table that's on the arm of my of my sofa. And in the bottom of the lamp has a USB charging thing. So I can just put my charging doobly doo, right in there. Love it. It's amazing. Got it from HomeSense for like $30.

Unknown Speaker 8:16

And finally, is my library membership.

Unknown Speaker 8:21

This thing, lots of people don't know about this, but your local library probably

Unknown Speaker 8:27

will have audiobooks. And what people don't know about is they have they have

Unknown Speaker 8:35

a streaming service. The one that is in in Vancouver is called canopy. And so if you previously used to be able to go to libraries and rent DVDs, right, you probably still can't do that. But they now if you have a movie that you like, it's not on the ones that I normally use, you can go and see it at the library, and just rent it

Unknown Speaker 8:59

free. It's free. It's free. And so you there's a free streaming service and there's no ads or anything, it's just free and, and it has interesting things on there as well that you might not see in other places. Because you know, it's like cool library stuff. But also has like, you know, all the normal things that you'd have on like a Netflix, not all of them, obviously because it's a lot a lot more limited. But still, it's forever. So yeah, that's my list of things. What are your things that you really like that you have in your life that have improved your life for a smaller amount of money? Okay, so let's talk about what we're talking about today. Like, Yeah, fucking out. We've already been 10 minutes in here, Benny. I'm here for the Oprah gossip.

Unknown Speaker 9:44

All right, glad I'm doing so a few days ago, news came out that Oprah was leaving the board of Weight Watchers. So I shared on the old instance

Unknown Speaker 10:00

grams and said to people what do you think about this and people had some opinions? And I was curious about certain things in regards to what is Weight Watchers doing in regards to weight loss drugs.

Unknown Speaker 10:13

And what's the gospel? Basically what is the golfer need to know? So I'm just gonna read from variety which says Oprah Winfrey Winfrey to exit Weight Watchers board after she announced use of weight loss drug. Oprah Winfrey. I'm struggling with Winfrey. Winfrey, free free. Oprah, Oprah Winfrey. You know what it's gone up and a free at the end. Anyway, Oprah Winfrey will leave the board of Weight Watchers after almost 10 years following the entertainment moguls relevant revelation that she's using a weight loss drug. Winfrey informed the company this week that she decided to not stand for re election at the annual meeting of shareholders to be held in May 2024. She has served on the company's board since 2015 When she acquired a 10% stake in Weight Watchers. I look forward to continuing to advise and collaborate with Weight Watchers and CEO Seema Sistani in elevating the conversation around recognizing Oh word as a chronic condition, working to reduce stigma and advocating for health equity, said Winfrey in a statement

Unknown Speaker 11:23

in December 2023, Winfrey had told people that she decided to start taking a weight loss medication, which she did not identify after coming to the realization that weight management does not hinge solely on a person's self control. Quote, the fact that there is a medically approved prescription for managing weight and staying healthier in my lifetime feels like relief, like redemption, like a gift and not something to hide behind and once again be ridiculed for she told people Winfrey's agreement with Weight Watchers specifies that she will, she will, quote, not engage in any other weight loss or weight management business program products or services during the term of her relationship with the company. And for one year afterwards. According to the company's filings with the SEC. After the disclosure that Winfrey will leave Weight Watchers board shares of the Weight Watchers or WW international fell more than 20% Friday. With her departure the company's board will be reduced from 10 to nine members. And then it keeps going on blah, blah, blah. But I believe globally bluebird a blip blip. Winfrey owns about 1.1 million shares of WW international representing 1.43% stake in the company. According to data provided provider FactSet at the current stock price that's worth less than 3.5 million.

Unknown Speaker 12:45

Her initial investment for 6.4 million shares of the company totaled 43 point 2 million. So I wonder if you sold them. Oh, okay. So she's denoted donated her stock, her WWE stock to the National Museum of African American History and Culture.

Unknown Speaker 13:03

Oh, interesting. Okay. And then at the end it says last year, Weight Watchers acquired sequence a telehealth subscription service providing access to health care providers who can prescribe weight loss drugs like zenpack for 106 million.

Unknown Speaker 13:20

Okay, so this is Sol Sol Sol Sol Sol Sol Sol Sol Sol. I've read all this but I'm thinking I'm just thinking I'm thinking aloud I'm thinking aloud. what's not being said here what's going on behind the scenes because here's what I thought what came to my head when I first read that and I was like, hang on a minute. Weight Watchers sells weight loss drugs. So why

Unknown Speaker 13:44

is Oprah essentially getting the boot? Who knows if she's getting the boot but you know this is who knows what's going on. But there seems to be like Weight Watchers saying that this is a conflict of interest or or Oprah saying that

Unknown Speaker 14:00

so So hang on what is going on? Shouldn't that be like a good thing that Oprah is according to Weight Watchers

Unknown Speaker 14:09

having a smaller body probably temporarily by using this unnamed weight loss drug but showing that she's not allowed to use any other

Unknown Speaker 14:22

weight loss product maybe because it's not a Weight Watchers named drug not that there is a Weight Watchers named drug that I'm aware of there could be in the future

Unknown Speaker 14:34

the fact that it's a brand theoretically you know like a we go V or other weight loss drug

Unknown Speaker 14:43

or I'm saying weight loss drug their diabetes drugs right. We go V is a weight loss drug but anyway, I digress. So So what's what's going on? So I've been having a little lucky luck a little sneaky sneaky little allow a little luck, luck, luck luck, who is

Unknown Speaker 15:00

sequence

Unknown Speaker 15:02

what is going on? So let's read from Regan chasse Dean's substack blog post. What is this company that they're acquiring? Regan Chastain writes sequence is one of the scavenger companies that have popped up to capitalize on the massive marketing campaign around the new GLP one agonist class of weight loss drugs. So GLP one agonist class or weight loss drugs, is we go V ozempic, Manzano, you know that type of stuff. Essentially, the company employs a group of doctors and practice practitioners who prescribe weight loss drugs, including the new drugs as well as older ones, with dangerous side effects and no long term efficacy data, as well as diet and exercise plan to people who pay a monthly subscription of $99 which may not include their drugs.

Unknown Speaker 15:52

The leader of their medical team is Dr. Spencer Nadal ski and he specializes in Oh word medicine, which of course raises a lot of red flags. A quick browse of open payments.cms.gov finds that Dr. Nadal ski has accepted small payments from Nova Novo Nordisk Eli Lilly AstraZeneca, Boehringer Ingelheim, Janssen Pharmaceuticals, II, i Sa i GlaxoSmithKline. If any of these names look familiar, it's because they are funders of astroturf organizations that lobby for insurance coverage, and expanded use of those drugs and Purdue pharma makers of OxyContin and architects of the marketing program that Novo and others are copying, copying, including the use of astroturf organizations to lobby for insurance coverage, coverage, and expanded use of drugs. So

Unknown Speaker 16:45

I all went and have it or Google Google of the Weight Watchers are doing right now. So that stuff happened. Summer 2023.

Unknown Speaker 16:56

So now that had a little time to settle in what is going on. So

Unknown Speaker 17:02

going on to the Weight Watchers website, it doesn't if you just

Unknown Speaker 17:07

I don't recommend going on the Weight Watchers website unless you're in a incognito tab, because you might get a shit ton of weight. Weight Watchers and friends advertising to you on the Weight Watchers website, it doesn't say hey, sign up for drugs, it they are still pushing the

Unknown Speaker 17:27

time true tested and failed diet point system that they've all always had, have sold.

Unknown Speaker 17:39

It's only when when I searched for Weight Watchers plus sequence, which is the name of the company that is prescribing the drugs did it come up, and you can and it was either go straight to sequence, which obviously doesn't have that brand name of Weight Watchers that people are familiar with. Or the first thing that comes up is weightwatchers forward slash clinic. So they're they're branding it as this type of doctor's clinic. And the marketing is so sleek, obviously it is it's you know,

Unknown Speaker 18:17

they've got so much money to spend on you know, because I've got customers five, and basically they just making it making it look really really easy and enticing that you can just literally click the button it says take a quiz, see if you're eligible. And the five minute quiz. All it asks you to see if you're eligible.

Unknown Speaker 18:37

It is your height and weight. And then what crave what have you used a drug before your gender? And what do you struggle with? Hunger? Nighttime eating stress eating cravings, not enough exercise? I mean just if

Unknown Speaker 18:58

If I Can I roll anymore. I mean hunger and craving, eating, eating at night. These are all just normal ways to be a human being.

Unknown Speaker 19:10

Do you struggle with needing to eat food? We've got the medicine for you. Fucking now anyway, and then what have you tried in the past like dieting, exercise, whatever, and then create an account to see your results. Obviously I'm not going to do that because I don't want to give Weight Watchers anything.

Unknown Speaker 19:31

But but they're not asking. Hey, are you unwell? Are you sick in any way? No, they're just asking are you fat? If you're fat then up your qualify lol

Unknown Speaker 19:46

the other things on the page is all kind of glossy. You're going to cure your your see sleep apnea and your fatty liver and you're going to become a you're going to have X ray eyeballs and you're you know all like kind of fantastical claims

Unknown Speaker 20:00

seems that this you know, if you sign up for the clinic,

Unknown Speaker 20:04

they show average weight loss with the clinic. And

Unknown Speaker 20:11

at 39 weeks, the weight loss starts to slow down 52 weeks, which is exactly what we know happens, it seems to stop. And what happens after that they stop showing the data.

Unknown Speaker 20:27

It's just like a tried and true tactic, isn't it from any weight loss companies, it's like, look at all the amazing weight loss. Forget about it when it started, come back on.

Unknown Speaker 20:37

So any links to data goes to a study that's behind a paywall. So you know, people are not able to get that information. And whether it works

Unknown Speaker 20:49

accurately and heads up. We don't have any data to show that it improves health in any significant way or that after a year, it's

Unknown Speaker 20:58

stops working. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:03

It's just I just find it. My eyeballs want to pop out on my head when I read these these sales pages which are just lying to people. So you have to pay a $49 consultation fee. And then they say start with a one time $49 consultation fee after the first month, your membership continues for as low as $84 a month. They prescribe semaglutide We go V. liraglutide sucks Ender. Now TracPhone be pro prion and Tirzah peptide zip pouch bound.

Unknown Speaker 21:38

And those medications, they say most of the ones that are the don't you don't get the medication paid for with that monthly at $4.

Unknown Speaker 21:50

I had a look to see what people's experiences were so I you know, the best place for people's like, you know, no, I feel like Reddit for finding people's experiences is a nice place to nice place who says read it's a nice place. But you know, I always if I want to get a real real idea, knowing that there's still probably salespeople on there, but I will go to read it and see if what I'm looking at is what are the people say what are the people say about it, you know, so if I'm like, I want to buy this toaster, what are the people say about it? Anyway, and so there's a Weight Watchers, Reddit thread, group, whatever.

Unknown Speaker 22:29

And I was just reading what people were saying. And there's obviously people who will say this.

Unknown Speaker 22:35

And others that were like No, so I'm going to read some comments. One person said I did not have to complete bloodwork before that I got a prescription, which surprised me he was ready to send the prescription before I had gotten any bloodwork, which is it which is interesting because surely these medications are to improve health. They're not there to make people smaller. So that doctor is prescribing a medication that has a blackbox warning or you know black box is the name that we know but box warning about the risks. And we don't know anything about the person's bloodwork.

Unknown Speaker 23:16

Someone else's sequences a horrible program, they get your money and then tell you that nothing is available. And they do not know what the cost of the market medications will be. When you tried to cancel they have no cancellation policy, I literally paid for three months for nothing. They were able to help they were not able to help get any medications extremely disappointed. Do not join not worth the time or money. Someone else says sequences a waste of money. I've been waiting for nearly two months to get approved for medication and paying monthly dues the whole time. I think it's cheaper just to get a prescription from a plastic surgeon where I live it's only 250 to $350 a month only as a rich person and that way Who knows if I'll ever get approved. And who knows if I'll ever get approved on sequence. Someone else said my experience with sequence was awful complete scam, they steal your money promise to give you a script to lose weight, give you the smallest amount possible so that you have to keep paying for the monthly fee of $100 to get anything that will actually help and then when your insurance finally catches on that you don't have diabetes and stops paying they say okay, bye. Thanks for your money and have a great journey total scam. Don't waste your money.

Unknown Speaker 24:29

Yeah, so which is I can't remember what the quote was from there was a famous quote from the Chief Marketing Officer

Unknown Speaker 24:38

of Weight Watchers that says, like lol we basically have customers for life because she didn't say our diets don't work. But we have that's the beauty of whitewashes is people keep returning, returning and returning.

Unknown Speaker 24:55

So what did Oprah actually say about

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Oh what she's doing so in December 2023 She spoke to people. It says Oprah Winfrey reveals she uses weight uses weight loss medication as a maintenance tool. I'm absolutely done with the shaming. Oprah Winfrey is no stranger to scrutiny over her weights for as long as she has been in the public eye. The icons but a body journey has played out in the media on magazine covers and on episodes of her own upon eponymous hit talk show that ran for 25 seasons. It was a public sport to make fun of me for 25 years Winfrey tells people in this week's cover story. I have been blamed and shamed and blamed and shamed myself. One hurtful moment came early in her career when she landed on a Serb ik fashion critics Mr. Blackwell's list. I was on the cover of some magazine and it said dumpy, frumpy and downright lumpy recalls the CO producer of the new film of Color Purple. I feel I didn't feel angry, I felt sad. I felt her I swallowed the shame I accepted that it was my fault. No more she says. Winfrey who turns 70 Next month is optimistic that she now has a better handle on how to maintain a healthy weight long term and rid herself of shame once and for all. Using holistic approach I raise eyebrows that includes regular exercise and other lifestyle tweaks when Winfrey confirms that she has also added a weight loss medication to her regimen. weight fluctuations occupy five decades of space in my brain, yo yo, yo yoing and feeling like I can't just conquer this thing believing willpower was my feeling says Winfrey, who's dodged rehabilitation after knee surgery in 2021 kickstarted what has been steady weight loss over the last two years.

Unknown Speaker 26:40

Okay, now, and then she lists like the things that she does. And it's just Oh, Oprah. Sounds like you might have an IDI really wow. And so she filmed this thing. She filmed this thing where she basically did an advert for the pharmaceutical weight loss industry saying like, no more shame, which is, you know, the whole the whole big thing for

Unknown Speaker 27:06

sounding nice. But you know scamming people into paying for these drugs that don't work and harm others, people. And so Oprah is saying the whole thing that Oh, word is a disease. It's not about willpower. It's about the brain.

Unknown Speaker 27:23

And so yeah,

Unknown Speaker 27:27

I just feel like I would love,

Unknown Speaker 27:31

love to see if there was a history of interviews that Oprah has done talking about the new thing that has finally conquered this weight

Unknown Speaker 27:42

problem that she says that she that she perceives that she has,

Unknown Speaker 27:46

I would love to see an interview from like 10 years ago, when she started when she was on the board of joined the board of Weight Watchers where you know, where she's where she would theoretically be like, This is it. This is the end of my yo yo dieting and, you know, 10 years before that, when that when she was sponsor for something else, and

Unknown Speaker 28:04

10 years before that, when she you know, there was another diet she was trying. And so why is see she's so sure that because she's seen short term success, that this thing is a new like, is the thing? Well, because it's been sold, it's been sold so well. It's been, it makes people feel so much better. Rightfully so should be we should not be feeling shame about that, that fat bodies. It's so it feels so good for someone to say it's not your fault. It's not it's not your fault. There's no fault to be had. It's being fat. It's just a normal way to have a body, right. But that difference is that shift is so empowering for a lot of people, which is great, right? We want people to feel good, but feel good. And then like oh, well the solution is to take these dangerous drugs that don't work.

Unknown Speaker 28:52

You're so close. You're so close. Just just go to fat liberation, are you suppose

Unknown Speaker 29:00

I posted this on on on the Instagrams and said to people like what do you think? What do you think about this?

Unknown Speaker 29:05

As I was like, thinking about things, I was thinking about things and so people had lots of feelings like Oh, surprise, surprise. It's kind of ironic and the hang on isn't Wait, which is advertising, weight loss, drugs, and how sad all her success and she's still fixated on shrinking herself. She's brilliant. I wish she'd read and study real science. Someone else said I imagined she'll be a spokesperson for one of these medications soon. Weight Watchers gave me an eating disorder. I never support anything they do. So my take my take on all this is I'm not really that interested in Oprah right? I'm not interested in Oprah. I'm interested in like the shifting of shifting of tides and what the scammy companies are doing and so my thought one way watches is is a scam. Just like all diet companies. And anything that happens that make makes them lose money because their share prices dropped. Love it makes me happy. I find it amusing that Oprah has

Unknown Speaker 30:00

Maybe inadvertently outed them. Because she's she's been on the board. She's been at the kind of the center of knowing everything about weight loss, and she couldn't get that weight loss herself through Weight Watchers methods.

Unknown Speaker 30:18

Which to me, I'm like, Well, yeah, no shit, I bet your wiper has been working so fucking hard to become thin. For 70 years. It's kind of like she's been like pousse. This'll work by Weight Watchers.

Unknown Speaker 30:32

And so

Unknown Speaker 30:34

why is it a problem that she is taking a weight loss drug when

Unknown Speaker 30:38

Weight Watchers are selling a weight loss drug? Is it because it proves that their shitty diet doesn't work and it makes them look bad? My theory is because she had in her contract, she wasn't allowed to use any other weight loss drug, she wasn't usually allowed to use any other weight loss method. At the time, Weight Watchers weren't 10 years ago weren't in the drug selling business. Therefore, I think that it's weakens their stance that Weight Watchers as a diet and diet plan works. So that's a huge, huge part of their business, right? And that the answer is weight loss drugs. And so even if it is a drug that Weight Watchers sells, then that's what I think is their problem. It outs them from in shit. My other thoughts is I'm scared that even more people will lean into taking these drugs because Oprah and other celebs are and we don't know any long term data about them, we already know that they stopped working at a year, we already know the weight loss is minimal. We already know that side effects are really not great. My other thought is it's not my business will Oprah does with her body. It makes total sense that living a life in the public eye and in a historically excluded body would mean focusing on safety. And in many people's cases, safety can mean proximity to thinness, aka privilege. And whatever that someone does to survive, the world is up to them. And for many people I will never know or understand their struggles because of my own privilege. I feel like you know, it sucks that I felt like people were taking these drugs. I don't think that they're bad people, I don't think that they should be shunned. I don't think we should be making fun of them and being like, you're so silly. And you're so you're such a bad person for taking this drug?

Unknown Speaker 32:37

Because I don't think it's, it's,

Unknown Speaker 32:41

I think it's a smart way to go about it. And also, I just don't believe that about those people. I believe that people who are doing whatever they're doing

Unknown Speaker 32:51

on the whole are just trying their best, right? We've, we've all lived in an anti fat society, and depending on your body size, and how many privileges you have or don't have, then, you know, I know the pain, oh, the pain of living in that type of world. So if when I was in anti fatness and someone said that there's an injection that you could take 100% I would be the first in the line to get that injection to get relief from this perceived awful thing is awful characteristic that I had, which is my greed, my my which made me fat in my eyes.

Unknown Speaker 33:39

So to me, I'm just like, why it makes sense. The ones who are to blame or the people who are deceiving

Unknown Speaker 33:49

who are using fat liberatory language and messaging to sell this harmful drug and other drugs right there the motherfuckers the people who were the victims, or the people who were trying to just get along in life

Unknown Speaker 34:07

I want to say you know fat liberation is here if you ever want us we're here of your tables

Unknown Speaker 34:13

and also those complicated feelings of

Unknown Speaker 34:17

if that you've probably noticed online

Unknown Speaker 34:20

there's many influencers who who were who were previously happy fat influencers who were just like, oh, fuck the face Oh, fat liberation is the cow curl I'm I'm now taking this drug and follow me on my weight loss journey. And that can feel really really shit if you

Unknown Speaker 34:41

if you look up to someone,

Unknown Speaker 34:43

like if if the people that I look up to in fact liberation,

Unknown Speaker 34:47

certainly said that they're doing this thing I would be

Unknown Speaker 34:51

so I'd be upset. I'd be angry. I'd be

Unknown Speaker 34:57

I'd want to like out into the world and be like

Unknown Speaker 35:00

Listen, they're a terrible person, because I'd be having all these complicated feelings which is, which is natural, right?

Unknown Speaker 35:08

So anyway, so what I produces and also recognizing Oprah is a billionaire right so Oprah has a shit ton of power. However, that power that she has still has not protected her from from bias and bigotry and shit things happening.

Unknown Speaker 35:27

Which is, you know, it's interesting to think about, and also on the other side, that power she has a power to influence people. And what she does will influence many, many people. And her commitment to anti fatness really has slowed down our ability to change the conversation about fat liberation. Because we're still stuck at fatness is bad. I think it's complicated, right? So whatever Oprah does not my business, she wants to take weight loss drugs, how about it, but I am annoyed with the people who are you know, pulling the strings and not saying that Oprah is not pulling the strings Oprah has a ton of power. But it's I think it's there's more nuanced and complicated and shades of gray and all that type of stuff to it. My final thought on that is I am so glad that I will not be chasing fineness at 70 Like Oprah is and recognize that because that's the reason for that is because of my many privileges, like being white, like being British, like being

Unknown Speaker 36:35

pre disabled,

Unknown Speaker 36:37

etc. I have access to resources that mean that I can confront my own anti fatness. Also, Oprah has resources in regards to influence and billions of dollars where she could explore her own anti fatness, but my ability to explore my own anti fatness is you know, because of my own privilege and the way things have just gone in my life, you know, anyway, I'm so I'm glad that I'm not going to be 70 and still being like, how can I get thin? Because that sounds forgiving and exhausting, doesn't it? Right? If you are not pursuing fitness than you really like, Yes, I hear you have any that I'm tired by the thought of being 70 and pursuing fitness. And maybe you are 70. And you're just like, I'm just, I'm just learning about anti fat buyers now. And like, Thank God, I'm not going to be 90 and pursuing thinness. Because I absolutely can happen. So anything is to the day that we die. And I've told this story before. But what really kind of sticks with me is when one of my colleagues, he was his mum was dying. And she was she was old, right? Like 90 plus. And he was saying that. So she was in the hospital because she was she was dying. And they were like, You need to eat something. And she says no, because I don't want to get fat.

Unknown Speaker 37:53

And I remember him telling me that story of even then, you know, she didn't want to have a yogurt or whatever, because she might become fat. And I thought that that was really sad. Really, really sad. And I did not want to I did not want that to happen to me. When I'm on my deathbed if I am in a bed when I'm dying. I might be hit by a bus or

Unknown Speaker 38:16

taken by a eagle and eaten in a nest.

Unknown Speaker 38:23

I'm always worried about my dog did he get in taken by an eagle that when there's an eagle around, I'm like I'm watching you motherfucker. I know if they do that if Eagles take dogs. Anyway, whatever. I don't wanna think about it, because I don't

Unknown Speaker 38:35

want to think about drinking getting eaten by an eagle. Anyway, this is where my brain goes sometimes. Yes, our links for everything that I've spoken about.

Unknown Speaker 38:47

Probably not a great idea to go and click on the Weight Watchers link but it's there if you want to, if you're just if you're interested. Link to the Instagram post so you can put your thoughts and again like this is not this is really not about Oprah. I feel like I really want it you know, Weight Watchers and sequence to to get into the garbage can and all of these bullshit drugs. And and you know, and if it's a diabetes drugs, they should be in the hands of people who have diabetes, right.

Unknown Speaker 39:20

And the shortages and you know, people have trouble getting it because of because of companies like sequins prescribing it to people without without any information or your fat vodka. You got it?

Unknown Speaker 39:32

You know, it's not cool. It's not cool. So yeah, go and have a look at that Instagram post if you want. If you enjoy content like this, then you want you want to support fat live content, then go to my Kofi and donate whatever, don't have to if you don't want to, but if the $5 Tear for the $5 one you get the size diversity Resource Guide which is

Unknown Speaker 40:00

haha my vein. It's like seven pages of

Unknown Speaker 40:04

podcasts, listen to TEDx, talks, books, science places to shop, you know, so if you want some fat goodness in your in your life and by the way, being surrounded by fat liberation really helps shift our beliefs about our own bodies.

Unknown Speaker 40:21

So getting those different types of perspectives and opinions in your life, then it's really helpful. So you know, you get that for five bucks. If you subscribe on on cofee link in the bio if you just if you just want to go to it, it's KOF. I forward slash face fatty. You'll probably find it from that. But thanks for hanging out with me. I hope you're doing all right. I love Sofia. I think you know, what I'm gonna think I'm going to do is I'm going to start replaying older episodes. Because we've got 195 episodes, chances are you've you've probably not listened to or 185 Someone's out there being like, I have honey, you are dedicated. I love it. I love it. But even if you have listened to them, there's so many really good episodes that you probably would have forgotten about. I'm recording these episodes. And I forget what what I've said. Oh, no. What was that about? Okay, what did we talk about? Who is this? What is this? This sounds good. I want to listen to this. What did I say?

Unknown Speaker 41:21

Yeah, so I think I might do start doing replays in between the weeks so that you get some

Unknown Speaker 41:28

some, some content there for you. Yeah. The reason why if you didn't know we're down to one podcast a month is because for years I've been bankrolling the podcast myself, I have a an editor and I have an admin person. And so I've been paying to produce a podcast and I looked at the numbers of like how much I've spent on making the podcast and I was like, Oh, holy shit, a lot of money. And so I started doing cofee, which is kind of like Patreon to try and meet base costs just meet like the basic costs for editing and so that's not even my time.

Unknown Speaker 42:10

And so, we were doing an episode every single week and so far we've been able to meet paying for one podcast a month, I would absolutely love to do more. And so if we get enough Kofi donations and that 100% happen, I would love that to happen. So if you want more then go to cofee or not. I'm not the boss of you. You do what you want.

Unknown Speaker 42:34

All right. Well, thanks for hanging out with me today. Remember you are worthy you always were you always will be and stay fierce, fatty. See you next time. Goodbye.

Episode 184 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Fat acceptance and stigmatization with Tigris Osbourne. 0:00

• Intersectionality and inclusivity in a historical civil rights organization. 3:14

• Fat acceptance and allyship in a predominantly white organization. 9:39

• Fat acceptance and activism. 15:43

• Fat Liberation Conference and its Joyful Atmosphere. 20:19

• Fat-friendly events and community support. 23:09

• Weight loss drugs and their potential coverage by national healthcare systems. 30:54

• Weight loss and body autonomy. 34:27

• Obesity advocacy and pharmaceutical funding. 37:27

• Weight stigma and healthcare advocacy. 43:29

• Pharmaceutical companies' role in obesity and weight loss. 46:20

• Obesity as a disease and its stigmatization. 49:11

• Obesity and pharmaceutical industry manipulation. 56:09

• Pharmaceutical industry influence in health advocacy. 59:21

• Obesity and weight stigma, including height. 1:02:19

• Body size discrimination and legal protections. 1:09:17

• Fat liberation and media representation. 1:12:44

• Pharmaceutical industry influence in healthcare policy. 1:16:12

• Body positivity and community redemption. 1:22:56

• Fat activism and legislation. 1:27:33

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Today we're talking about organized anti-fat fuckery with Tigress Osborn let's do it.

Welcome to this special episode where we have a guest. Oh my god, I'm so excited. We're gonna just get straight into it and introduce tigers to you. Hello, tigers. Welcome to the show.

Tigress 0:41

Hello.

Vinny Welsby 0:43

How you doing?

Tigress 0:45

I'm so excited to be here.

Vinny Welsby 0:47

How excited on a scale of one to 1042. Yeah. Easing love it for what you do. Now, obviously, Tigress you're an icon to me, and I know all about you. But for those who don't know who you are scandalous, how can they not know who you are. But for those who don't know who you are, can you give us an intro to you?

Tigress 1:11

Sure, I'm Tigress I use she her pronouns. I I live in the southwestern United States. And I am the Executive Director of NASA, which is the National Association to Advance fat acceptance. And NASA is the oldest documented fat rights organization started in 1969. So we're turning 55 this year. And we work on making the world a better place for fat people. We unapologetically use the F word in doing that work. Some of the other stuff we're talking about today makes me want to use up the F word. But by this I mean fat, we unapologetically use the word fat in our work, because we want to de stigmatize that work and really have people thinking about fat as just a natural part of human diversity, and one that should be protected from discrimination socially, legally, culturally, all of that.

Vinny Welsby 2:04

Ah, and how long have you been at NASA?

Tigress 2:07

I have been at NASA as well. So I did my first volunteer work with NASA in 2012, when they invited me to produce a fashion show at one of their conferences. I used to run a plus sized nightclub event in Oakland, California called full figure entertainment. And I had this full figure Friday parties, it was a hip hop party, it was like a black Senator at Oakland Hip Hop party, but with the intention of being like a good welcoming, affirming space for fat folks, of factions of all genders, we had a lot of focus on like, you know, fat ladies and the people who like fat ladies, but but we really did try to make it a gender inclusive environment and a welcoming environment to you know, like centering fat black woman, but and, and fat women of color, but like having, you know, whoever wants to come and do that and be with us and party with us. Great. And we were, we really aim to be a very fashion forward club. And so Nafa invited me when they were in San Francisco across the bridge, to produce a fashion show at one of their conventions. And so I did that for them a couple of years. We went when we went to that, I guess, the next year to do it there. And then about a year and a half after that, I think it was they invited me to join the board. So I came onto the board in what would that make that I came onto the board in 2015? Is that right? I think that's right. And then I became the board chair in 2021. And then last year, I was named the executive director. This is the first time we've had an executive director at about 20 years. So you know, it's a big a big sign of, you know, Rhian reinvigorating the organization and also rebuilding infrastructure and just, you know, aiming for longevity and all of that stuff. Mm hmm.

Vinny Welsby 3:54

It really feels like in the last couple of years that NASA has been hitting it. But every you're everywhere. You're just leading the way and it just feels really I'm so excited that you're at the helm. You just you it is it's a different era

Tigress 4:09

for NASA, in that, you know, Neff has been many things to many people over it's, you know, five and a half decade history. But but it's one of the things that wasn't was intersectional. And so I really have worked on that shift in the last last few years, especially but I would say, you know, since I came onto the board, really trying to think about like, who are the fat folks who don't feel comfortable here and why don't they or who don't feel interested in this and why don't they? And it's, it's okay, if your NAP doesn't have to be everybody's cup of tea, but everybody should feel welcome at the tea party. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Well, we've Um, we've just been working really hard at that and I'm part of it is because I couldn't be part of an organization that wasn't trying harder than if I had been trying to be intersectional for folks who are listening that don't know me. I am Um, I, you know, I'm a black woman with mixed race heritage, but a really strong black identity. And I was, you know, I was living in the Bay Area, I was doing diversity education, we just called it that at that time, but today people would call it D, I work, diversity, equity and inclusion work. And I was doing that as my day job at a, at a private school, in the, in the Bay Area. And, you know, I just had this life where like, and I was teaching Women's Studies, and so I was talking about gender issues all the time and race and, and in, you know, some of my work as a DI practitioner was during the Occupy movement. So we were talking about class a lot. So I was having these days that were like, steeped in talking about systemic injustice and identity. And then I wanted my fat rights work to also feel like that. And like I said, my club, then my, the nightclub that I was event that I was doing, had grown out of going to other plus size positive events, but not feeling as welcomed at those events, as a black woman with black friends coming with me, right? Like, I'm, you know, I'm light skinned, I have that privilege. There were some of those events. I was like, you're fine, you know, but, you know, but I didn't feel like what, but okay, but I need everybody should be fine. Right? I need to be able to bring my other friends here with me and have us all have a good time in an environment that feels safe and welcoming. And so like I was doing that work in other spaces, because when I was asked to join the board of Napa, I just knew Nafa as this, like, historic Civil Rights Organization, it was like, I was super honored to be asked to join the board. And then I got there. And it was like, Well, hold on, don't want to do this. If this people aren't, if these folks are not understanding, look, I'm having the same dynamic that I was having at the club, you know, I had, you know, had to start my own thing, because the people at the other places, were not, I wasn't using the word intersexual. Enough, but that's what it was. Right. And so I had the same, you know, like, it was the same experience at NASA. And luckily, like, as we started to make some shifts, that we attract even more people who are committed to that, and we make sure that the folks that we are bringing on in leadership positions are committed to that whatever their own personal identities are, that they are committed to intersectionality that they are thinking about, you know, centering the, the the folks with the most, you know, historic history of systemic disenfranchisement disenfranchised. And so we are seeing, you know, a lot more. First of all, we're the it's the first time, I think, I think it's the first time in the history of the organization, that we have an all fat board. And you there's an influx, I mean, for the last week, in the era where I've been on the blouse,

Vinny Welsby 7:43

I just presumed that everyone was always fat on the Nafa board. No, because

Tigress 7:48

there's a long history of the involvement of allies and folks who identify with the term fat admirer. Yeah, like because

Vinny Welsby 7:55

wasn't Nafa started by Bill Fabri. And new Louderback who are too white? Yes. Thanks. Nice, man.

Tigress 8:02

Yeah, well, Lou Louderback, I think was a smaller fat guy. But, but Bill was a thin man and a very thin man, then I mean, Bill will tell you now, Bill favori, who is Bill is credited as the designated founder, because he only worked on the organization together. And in fact, they delayed the opening of the organization to work on some of the editing of what became loose lauterbach's book fat power, which is kind of credited as being the first like, rights published book. The so like, so what happened is that so here's the story, because I actually love this anecdote. And I think it's, I think of Bill as a person who is, you know, who, who has both has a strong identity as a fat admirer. And he is the person that you know, people say credited, He is credited with coining that phrase fat admirer versus some of the other euphemisms that were being used like chubby chaser, and things like that. And he has a strong identity as a fat admirer. And I know that that's controversial for a lot of people, especially in fat liberation circles, like is that, you know, is it admiration? Is it fetishizing? Is it like, what is you know, were they explaining fat women? Like what is what does it all mean? In my experience with Bill, you know, Bill is 81 years old, still actively trying to stay engaged in like social media dialogues about fat, fat rights and things like that. And he would say that technically now he's like, medically fat or whatever, like, you know, we were going to talk a little bit I think about the flaws and how we label people as fat medically, but you know, but he was he was a young, thin engineer, like he had some economic privilege. He's a white guy. He's like, you know, the, the guy with cultural power when he serves this organization. But his wife is a fat Jewish woman who he adores and it's it's just fun to edit it to me. It's touching to listen to Bill talk about his wife and the other women he's had like Nobody was not like a player like this, this, this, these ideas sometimes that like, you know, these guys started this organization, so they could just get with a lot of fat ladies and like, there were guys who were attracted to the organization for that reason that is not Whiteville, and together with Lou and the handful of other people who founded Nafa. That is not what it wasn't started as a like, look for somebody to go on dates with and fuck, but like, but there, I mean, there was a period in nafas history where there was like Nafa date, which was a sort of like a dating service to help people meet each other, and there was a lot of fat in my ears hanging around. And some of them were just like, you know, I'd like just Goldstar toxic masculinity do. Terrible, but not all of them were and I just like, it's always a weird position for me as a, as a, you know, a black American woman to just be like, I want to talk about how great this white guy is, I actually think Bill favorite is his intentions were pure. And I know that the key was, he loved his wife, and he was seeing, not just the way internalized anti fatness was affecting her, but also the way systemic anti fat in this was affecting her. And he wanted to do something about that he wanted to try to make cultural change for her and people like her. And the road to hell is often paved with good intentions. So along the way, was everything perfectly executed. No. And in fact, Bill will tell you, he was part of the problem in terms of lack of intersectionality naffaa. Because he thought the best thing to do was focus on one issue. So like, why would we be talking about race? That's not what we're experts in? We're experts in fat. And like, that sounds good. Especially if you're only saying it to the other white people, if you're saying it to somebody who is having a daily experience of being, you know, racialized and then systemically discriminated against. Maybe the why should we talk about race question has a different answer than it has for you, white men or white women who are experiencing anti fatness as the primary area of your discrimination, right. So like, it's all a complicated history. But I think that you know, but those but the mix of people who were at that first meeting is some fat people and some some people. Yeah, it's all it appears to be all white people. I mean, there could be some folks who are like white passing and have other identities or whatever. But like, hearing the stories and seeing the photos, you know, the early days of Nafa are pretty white, and you know, your shins white when you can kind of go like, Oh, well, there was that one lady. I think she was Puerto Rican. in like, a year history. Right, like,

Vinny Welsby 12:45

so? Yeah.

Tigress 12:48

It's like, it's never as a mixed bag across the board. But like, I'm like, across the years, right? And I'm sure it's a mixed bag to some people now, like you are like, Yay, tiger says leadership. And I'm sure that there's somebody else out there was like, What is this black woman doing to our organization or whatever. So like, this is what it is today. Right? It's a black led organization. And not just led by a black person, but by a black person, who also spent a large part of her professional life. Talking about race. Yeah, yeah, talking about class talking about gender, talking about sexual orientation. And that is a different era. But also, there aren't any fat admirers or thin allies on our leadership team right now. And that doesn't mean that there's no space for the you know, for allies or people who are, you know, the sort of alternative terms we use in social justice like accomplices, or what is there's another one that people often use agitators? Like, there are these other eight words that feel stronger than ally because Ally has been so watered down, and so misused by people who self designated as allies. I still use allies, because one of the things we try to do at NASA is reach folks who are not already steeped in social justice movement, so that we can bring them along. And I mean, like, hopefully, I have no embarrassment, saying, like, hopefully radicalize them around fat liberation. We are not the most radical space, right? Like we are, you know, a somewhat moderate space, like we're radical compared to mainstream culture, just the fact that we use the word fat is radical compared to mainstream culture. Right. But in fact, liberation sort of echo system, right? I think. So the folks that fat rose use the term echo system to talk about, like, where all the different fat organizations kind of go, you know, in a constellation, yes, that's a mixed metaphor, if I say echo system and constellation, but like, I think of constellation as the term. But anyway, that we're not the most radical organization, right? And the most radical will have organizations that are only even loosely called organizations because they're so non hierarchical that it's just like a For a kind of gathering or grouping or whatever, but, you know, we want to be and I like to think of us as like the gateway drug liberation. And, and you know, and in that space, if I just say like, I want you to come in and be an accomplice, people don't understand what that means. But if I say, I'm gonna be an ally, they understand what that means. And then the while they are learning how to be an ally, they can learn how to be an accomplice, right? They can learn how to be a privilege trader. But they don't come in there. Right? Yeah, if they were, they're coming in. If you're coming in that hot, you probably gonna skip right over Nafa to some other organization. And that's, you know, and that's fine.

Vinny Welsby 15:43

So let's talk about our recent interaction. We saw each other in the facts, what was it called? Fat, fat, fat on fat calm. Thank you. Amazing conference. And I'm so pleased that I was there the day that you were there. Well, you were there for the whole weekend, probably. But I was there for the whole time. Yeah, I was only there for a day anyway. And so we finally got to meet in person, and I ate some of your candy on your table. And you said, Let's do a podcast episode together. And I was like, fuck, yes. And you were talking on you were the keynote. And I was on a panel that happens to be at the same time, but him minutes later. So I got the first 10 minutes of your talk. And I think I've seen maybe bits of it before because I went to I went to see you talk at the that you had told me about. You were doing a talk for legal professionals. And so I pretended to be a legal professional and listen to your talk. Anyway, you also told me about some Tom fuckery that is happening recently, which boils my pass. And so we're going to talk today so tell me, what is what is this what's going on?

Tigress 17:04

Before we get to the term fuckery. Um, let's just talk a little bit about fat con, if that's okay with you, because I think like, people have never been to a gathering of fat positive people. And it's so powerful. And like the fat con in Seattle is just called fat con in Philadelphia a few months before that they had one called filly fat con. Well, there have been fat gatherings. But I mean, again, I'm gonna say documented here, because the way that we sort of look at the historical record and say, What was the first of something is not always accurate to what, like what humans were actually doing in ways that we don't acknowledge as like a formal organization. But I will just say like the first Nafa conference was in 1970. And it was, I think, it was about 100 people at that first conference. And in the years after 1970, there are all these organizations that are feminist collectives. There are eventually there's no lose, which started as the National Organization of lesbians of size and is now like a queer centered like pan queer, queer centered fat rights organiser fat activist organization, and a no lose had epic conferences for years that people who were at those, you know, talk about how life changing they were, there are these social events called BB W bashes. And again, the BB W was one of those terms that like some people are like is that fetishizing and that other people are like, I really identify with this term, as you know how I see myself. And whatever you feel about the terminology. Those gatherings happen all over the country every year, and the usually the biggest ones are the summer ones in Las Vegas, and they draw hundreds of fat people. There's a batch, there's an event called bigger Vegas, that's kind of like a Gaiman's equivalent of the btw bashes, which actually might predate the btw like birth and birth, which is a gay men's organization used to have these big annual gatherings. So like, I hear some folks who are newer to fat live world who were at Fat con talking about it as like, finally now there's a convention for fat people and like, now, there's a convention for you as a fat person, but there's actually 50 of conventions for fat people, right? And so it's but it's really, really powerful. And if you've never been to one, and you have the opportunity, even a virtual gathering like this, like I was in a meeting with someone, we got a panel of folks who are going to be on our webinar to talk about the nobody is disposable project, which is a collective of organizations and leaders who are working first in California. And then there were some folks in Canada, working on, you know, in 2020, working on things like vaccine access for people in larger bodies, right. And this really amazing collective but one of the people who joined us for that panel was like, this is the first time in my life I've ever been in a gathering with only fat people. That was a virtual space with like, 10 of us So see how powerful that is? In a virtual space and in a real life space when it's 100 people Yeah, and it's two people when it's a five and I think the biggest, like bigger Vegas last year the Gameboy one. I think they sold out three hotels in

Vinny Welsby 20:18

Vegas. Wow. Yeah. Like, they're

Tigress 20:21

these, you know, like, some of those were the other guys who just come because they want to, you know, hit on the fat guys, but like, you know, this summer, but it's like, still, that still leaves hundreds of fat guys together, right? Like, and fat con didn't have any elements of like, I mean, I'm sure there were folks enjoying each other's company in all the way I

Vinny Welsby 20:40

did always, I'm

Tigress 20:43

sure. But it didn't officially have any elements of like, this is a hookup spot for you know, whatever. You know, it really was. It really was a fat liberation conference. It wasn't just, it feels

Vinny Welsby 20:57

so joyful, like just to be in the company of other fat people. And that maybe there's like one straight size person, but pretty much everyone is fat. And it's just just joy and excitement and giddiness and playfulness. And just goodness all around.

Tigress 21:17

Yeah, it hadn't been had all these great workshops. It had I wasn't the there were I think there were three keynotes, Bob the not Bob, the drag queen, the other one world famous Bob. Yeah. And there was another keynote, and I'm blanking on who it is. I'm so sorry, who whoever you were, that I went to your thing? I just why can I not think of it right now. But was there another keynote? Or was it just the fashion show was like the third everybody event, whatever it is, there was a fashion show. There were keynotes there were these amazing workshops. There was this great vendor fair. And it was running in sync with a fat burlesque festival that was happening, you know, produced by the same, the same team. And so like, there are all these different ways that you're right, like all these different ways to just celebrate fat joy. Like there's this like, just unapologetic spirit of fatness. And you know, you could see performers and you could say like, it was just really, really fantastic. And it was really fantastic for me as somebody who's been to some of those other kinds of events like this was a my rodeo when it comes to just being in a room with 100 Fat people. Yeah, but it was a really, really well done event. And I loved seeing the love between that team and the Philly fat con team because that could have just like, oh, we do an art thing over here. Now y'all have to do a thing over there. There was none of the Seattle team went out to Philly for there's the Philly team came out to Seattle for that one. And I

Vinny Welsby 22:39

was I listened to the a panel where they both talked about what it was like to run. And at the end, the Philly fat con people were saying, Listen, if you want to go do a fat con in your city, come Come hit us up and we'll help you organize that con wherever we're not owning the name. Just go do it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 23:01

Exactly. And pucks the, you know, the sort of person who fat con in Seattle was their brainchild. Same thing at the you know, at the closing ceremony of the Seattle one. So like, I love that I love that kind of like, you know, mutual community support like we don't like that's one of the things that when I was a nightclub promoter, before I started my party, I took the people who ran the two other plus sized parties in OIC in the Bay Area. I took them out to dinner to talk about like, how I want to do this in like a mutually supportive way. Like, I'm going to do my party on Friday night. So it's never going to interfere with your Saturday night party. How can we support each other, we need more options for plus sized people not to be fighting with each other. But they were fighting each other so bad. I couldn't have that dinner with them together. No, I had to take the one couple out and the other guy out separately because they would not sit. So you know, and whatever nightlife is not necessarily a space where the politics of like community support are at the forefront. Right. So I was doing a little bit differently and like I had, you know, I will sometimes talk about like I had a mission and value statement as a nightclub party. That's right. So so but I love seeing that too with I love seeing that too with the teams that were producing those two events and I think we are going to see a lot more of them you know and we the same thing is true with like I've seen that with a lot of the folks who plan clothing swaps like you know what do you want to learn from me about how to plan a clothing swap where you are you know the pool parties and stuff like there's a there's this idea to this is another one of those sort of know your history places where they there's this idea that like Pool Party started when we all saw it on shrill and like oh yeah. Killer when we all saw it on shrill but that party to me looks like everything I've ever seen about se Golden's golden confidence pool parties, which had been happening for years before that. And also there, there have been pool parties at bashes and naffaa conventions and no lose for decades, like so the party is not a new thing. But it is growing differently and spreading differently right now. And some of that is because like that, like people get inspired by that scene and shrill. But also, like, you know, part of the reason it can be successful is that there are folks who have done a good one who are willing to say, here's how we made it good. And there are folks who've done, you know, tried to do one, and it didn't turn out so well who are willing to say, here's what we wish we had known. And when we share knowledge and community like that, then we all get better. Like we have more think there's not enough fat friendly stuff in the world for us to be fighting with each other about, you know, about like it like the competition should all be like crystal crystal from the Big Sexy chat. There's a way she says it like I I don't have competitors. I have compatriots or something like that. She's got a, she says, y'all should also listen to the Big Sexy chat podcast because that's another really great. We have so many podcasts in our community. We Oh, many. I just started really, really listening to podcasts last year. And there was there was a point where I was just 20 hours a week of podcasts. And still feeling like I can't get to all the cool sounds. No,

Vinny Welsby 26:29

no, there's weird luck. We're so lucky. We're so lucky.

Tigress 26:33

Yeah. But anyway, so I know you wanted to, you want to get to the stuff we hate that I just like the fat comics.

Vinny Welsby 26:43

Yeah. And that's a good reminder for people like I'm lucky I'm in Vancouver, we have that pool parties. We have fat gatherings, we have fat clothing swaps. I'm lucky in Vancouver. But if you are in a city that doesn't have any of that, why not do it yourself? Why not bring? Why not do a pool party and invite some fatties, you know, or, you know, ask other people how they exactly like what you just said, Tigris, how they've seen success doing this thing, or even doing a fat con. Oh, amazing. Because the thing is, like, you've

Speaker 1 27:15

got the if you've got the interest, you got the passion, you've got some of the skills and you can assemble a team of people who have the skills, you can do a fat con. Yeah, right? You can do you can definitely do a clothing swap, you can definitely do a meet up a picnic in the park, you can definitely do a pool party. I mean, you know, some of those things, including the conventions, we need to be thinking more about the sort of like, are we being consistent with masking? Are we making sure it's a safe environment for folks? Like, there's no yeah, there's a lot of passion. There's, there's a lot of excitement for us to gather in person. And there's a lot of passion from folks who cannot gather in person because of their own health needs, because of their beliefs about community support around health, like whatever who are just not going to come to in person things unless they are fully masked. And they're going to be people who are not going to come to in person things even if they are fully masked. And in fact community where travel is such a just you know, travesty for so many of us in so many ways. Getting to an event, even when it's in your own location is hard enough, getting to one that's in another part of the country is really hard. So it's really important thing for us to continue to do virtual events. And it's really important for all of the organizers who are creating these events, to think about community safety, and to think about accessibility and to think about the fact disabled people who want to come to these events and like all of that accessibility stuff in as many of the ways as we can hold. And also for us to still do virtual events. And this is why naffaa has continued to really invest in our webinar program or our virtual event program. We classic webinar series where we it's kind of like this like well, I just get to talk to cool fat people who are doing great stuff like we have one coming up with Jeff Jenkins from the National Geographic show Never Say Never we have one coming up with Jessica Wilson who wrote a book about black women's narratives about our bodies like we have, we were going to have grief cat who performed at Fat con, you know, to make some stuff out of one of our virtual events and we have like a virtual byo brunch, you know, brunch series just have fat entertainers and we have this really cool brunch team that like we just we have a lot of virtual stuff because no matter how much we work really hard to make in person stuff accessible. There are some people who just like travel is prohibitive for whatever reason or gathering together it's prohibitive. And we don't when we had all this great virtual bonding over you know, I thought at what we thought of as the height of the pandemic and and then a lot of places just abandon it as soon as we could be together in person or as soon as we Some people felt we together person so like I just like, oh, no, I'm on my soapbox about that a little bit. But I do want us as I think a lot about it in our event planning at NASA, like, what? Where are the thresholds of like, you know, we can't do it unless we do it this way. Do we, you know, have a, you know, out of virtual track, I love the hybrid events that are having a thing in person and a virtual track, like the International weight stigma conference last year, out of virtual tract, and so, and will again this year and, and so, you know, you can hear from, like these researchers and scholars and increasingly more just fat liberationist At that conference, you can do it, you don't have to go to Colchester, England to do it, you can do it from because the virtual track is available. So like, I want us to be thinking about those accessibility things a lot as we think about how we build community and who gets included and who gets left out. And we're not going to get perfect all the time. And we're not going to please everybody. But it should always be at the forefront of our thinking about it. Yeah, I don't know how I tangental myself into that. Every now so

Vinny Welsby 31:08

Tom fog Ray, this is right, two o word care. And they've they've come up with the O word Bill of Rights. And like a trigger warning, we're probably going to slip and say the O words. So just like a heads up on that. So what is going on what's what's the crack what's happening.

Speaker 1 31:29

So, I mean, what's happening is Big Pharma is orchestrating a plan to green public support for in theory, weight stigma prevention, but in reality, political power to try to convince the US government in particular, but also other governments around the world, to include weight loss, drugs and other procedures in whatever their national insurance programs are. So here in the US, they're trying to get these drugs covered by Medicare. And they're trying to get these drugs covered by Medicare, because that would give a huge amount of access to many, many people who can't afford the drugs at their list price now, and we're talking about the, the GLP, one agonist drugs, the you know, people know it as ozempic ozempic is actually a diabetes drug. And we'll go V, which is the same drug as it was a big essentially, but is approved at a higher dose specifically for the purpose of weight loss is actually the weight loss drug, but I feel like like that horse is out of the bar, people just know it as ozempic They're gonna call every brands, every pharmaceutical companies drug ozempic, they're gonna call it you know, it's like, Kleenex, right? Like, you just did what is called now, but, but it's not actually was. But anyway, there, you know, if you can get when you read articles or headlines, because let's face it, some of us only read the headlines, sometimes about how many billions and billions of dollars ozempic is going to make in the next, you know, five to seven years, part of that calculation is based on the idea that national healthcare systems, the NHS in Britain and Medicare in the US will be covering the drug, and that not only will that open up that market, it will also force private insurance companies to have to cover the drug. And so then you got everybody's insurance covering the drugs, right now, there's a limited amount of weight loss, procedure, pharmaceuticals, therapy, whatever, that are covered by most insurance programs, if any, your insurance might not cover anything at all related to weight loss. And yeah, and just as just as Vinny warned that, like, I probably will use the the old words here in in the context of protesting these things, right, I always tell people that there are three situations in which I will use the words one is to talk about the rapper, Heavy D, who called himself the overweight lover and who is iconic and amazing. So, I will use us overweight LeBrons in the house talk about having, I will use the word obesity in terms of like a sort of middle fingers up to the concept of glorifying obesity and then actually glorifying myself as, as a labeled as obese person. So I will use it in that context. And then I will use it in critique of the systems that have medicalized body size, and use it as the disease label. So in a conversation like this, like, I'm not going to use it to talk about myself, I'm not gonna be like, as a person living with obesity, blah, blah, blah. But in the, in the context of talking about these, I'm just gonna say it and also just want to be clear that in the context of talking about the coverage of weight loss, anything, anything that's kind of labeled weight management, which we would actually activist fat advocates would actually call that weight cycling, not weight management, but the medical industrial complex calls it weight management, I'm going to use that term So as we talk about it a little bit, but just know our process of that term. When we talk about weight management possibilities, or at least the things that are presented to us that way as weight management possibilities, it is for me as a fat liberationists. And for me as the person, you know, guiding Nafa, we hold the fat liberationist belief in body autonomy, which means everybody has the right to make the decision to pursue weight loss if they choose to in their body. And we're not trying to prevent you. Like, I'm not trying to automatically prevent anyone from from pursuing intentional weight loss, what we are trying to do is make sure that you are doing that with truly informed consent. And your consent is not informed, if most of the things you are being told about what obesity is, as a disease are, are presented to you at the orchestration of people who benefit from selling you things to treat that disease. So, so like these, these so called weight loss drug is right, or at least Yeah, they make people lose weight. So they are weight loss drugs that is accurate. And you know, and other kinds of drugs being abused as weight loss drugs. But they're like the presentation of them as a solution to all your health problems, without adequately presenting to almost any of you, the potential complications to your health problems that are caused by them is part of the problem. And so here we go back to the right to obesity care organization. This is an umbrella organization that is led by the National Consumer Alliance and the National Council on Aging here in the US. And they launched earlier this week, and obesity Bill of Rights. So folks might be familiar with the concept of a patient's bill of rights, which is like a list of like, this is how your doctor should not engage in conflict, dealing with your health, basically, you know, you deserve to be treated with respect, you deserve to be given appropriate information to make the decisions that you need to make about your health, you deserve to, you know, have coverage of the procedures that you need to have a say in what procedures are being done to you like, it's that kind of stuff, right. And I think the first Patient's Bill of Rights came out in the 70s. And then there are all of these sort of like, you know, similarly structured kind of bills of rights Nafa had a house had a health care bill of rights, I actually probably will put it up on on our website, again, in the wake of all this nonsense, just as evidence that like, we cared about this, because we've always cared about fat people. We didn't just care about what we recognize the fact people are an even bigger market than we thought they were. Right. But

Vinny Welsby 37:54

I already have it on the website, because I've seen it, it was from like, 2017. Right? Yeah,

Speaker 1 37:59

the original version was actually from 2008. And I haven't been able to find whether we had a version before 2008. But so I know it goes back to at least 2008 with us, and then it was updated in 2017. And I think, you know, our board together will give it a 2024 Refresh soon because the What's complicated about the obesity bill of rights that this coalition has released is well, first of all, the framing of it is just a lie, because they are framing it as like a grassroots effort from people in our communities who want to take better care of their friends and loved ones who are living with the disease of OPI, the living with the complicated chronic disease of obesity,

Vinny Welsby 38:45

lifelong

Speaker 1 38:46

recovery, chronic in their chronic. So that's how they would say it. It is not a grassroots anything. Nothing that is sponsored, like we don't even call our roots grass work. And like NASA has a long history. And I'm really proud of the reach that we do have as an organization that has very limited resources. But fat liberation work, including nafas work is some of the most underfunded social justice work in the world. And we have an annual budget that is like pennies on the 1000s compared to these obesity advocacy organizations. Hmm. Like if you're only listening and not watching this on YouTube, like I'm over here doing all the air quotes about these organizations calling themselves advocates. They're advocating for something. But what they're advocating for is a little different than what they tell us they're advocating for. And so like we don't refer to our work as grassroots. So how is a coalition that is supported by 35 organizations, including major health organizations, the American Academy of dietetics and nutrition the the national national council on aging in the National Consumer Council are the ones that made it and major obesity quote unquote advocacy organizations that are funded by pharmaceutical companies and to commercial diet cut the two biggest commercial diet companies in the world Weight Watchers and neum have signed on to this obesity Bill of Rights. How in all of the EFS how an all all the EFS in every alphabet that exist. Is that a grassroots coalition? There are billions and billions and billions of dollars available to that coalition. And certainly there are millions in action. The National Council on Aging, who does great work around other elder care things is like Novo Nordisk is one of their main funders. And you can like this is publicly available. You look at their annual report and see that Novo Nordisk was one of their main funders.

Vinny Welsby 40:58

Why is that? Why what's the connection that Novo Nordisk is making with with aging and they just like there's fat old people, let's get them to.

Speaker 1 41:06

This is what's funny about that. So for folks who don't know, Novo Nordisk is the manufacturer of ozempic and Wigo v. So there are other pharmaceutical companies involved in this like, arms race for who makes the most money off of fat people, most notably, probably is Eli Lilly, which does, you know, which is also developing their own tomorrow and just Zapatero? Yeah, the whole they have their whole own arm of doing this same kind of thing. So like, Novo Nordisk, if McDonald's, Eli Lilly is at Burger King, you know, Abbott, is one of the major funders of the American Academy of dietetics. And Abbott is, as far as I can see, not making a drug right now. But they make some other like, diabetes management stuff that they're like, Hey, if you're using that drug, it works even better if you use it along with our diabetes, like, money it for all of these, like manufacturers of pharmaceuticals, and other kinds of, you know, medical aids, right. And the reason that they are particularly focused on elders right now is because elders as a cultural group, do not always have power in this country, but elders as a political group, as a voting group, that's a big deal. And if what you're trying to do is get states and ultimately the federal government to mandate that Medicare cover these drugs, or that private insurance to cover these drugs, one of the best ways to do that is to get the people who are politically engaged and will throw their weight around, so to speak, and we'll throw their age around in terms of politics, to to like to create public support for that happening. If you have a bunch of demand from elders on Medicare, that why isn't my Medicare covering this? Why isn't my Medicare covering this? That's actually a really important political voice? Like, does it just automatically happen magically? No, you also have to dump a bunch of money directly on politicians, and you have to get a bunch of state level people to buy in, you know, there are states all over the US that have introduced legislation that is either to, you know, get their state healthcare system to cover these these drugs, sometimes in conjunction with other procedures, sometimes just pitched as like diabetes management, even when you're taking it exclusively for the weight loss part, not for the diabetes part. But like, there's a variety of strategies here. But the big part of the bottom line is that like, there's a variety of strategies here. And when you scratch the surface of any of them, Novo Nordisk is behind the funding of many of them, right, presented as grassroots strategies. You know, they're presented as grassroots strategies, and they're increasingly presented as grassroots strategies that not only protect elders, but also protect black and brown communities, because denying obesity care to poor black and brown people is a form of systemic racism according to these people. So, you know, denying, like when they don't have a framework like we have, which is our, you know, our framework is anti fatness is creating some of the health crises that we see in poor communities, black and brown people, like economically disadvantaged communities, black and brown communities, you know, and, you know, like rural communities, like some of the anti fatness, as part of that crisis, it's not the fat itself. Yeah, it's the way wracked with fat people. But what these organizations argue is, yes, we agree with you. It's the way we interact with fat people, we need to be much nicer and more respectful to fat people. But our goal is, please be nice and respectful to me because you should be nice and respectful to me. And there is please be nice and respectful to the fat people, because otherwise we will scare them away from our expensive treatments. Yeah, we we got to get them into the Medical Office so that we can get the money. And it's like we don't even have to get their money anymore if we can get their insurance company's money.

Vinny Welsby 45:07

It just, it just makes me so fucking mad that Novo and Eli Lilly and anyone that's that's peddling weight loss, that they've they've glommed on to social justice movements, because they know people are getting smart to their bullshit. And so they're like, how can we confuse them? And so how is someone going to say, Oh, so you're so you're denying it to these poor black communities to these older fat people, you're an evil person by denying them the care that they want, and they deserve? And so how is someone going to argue that and say, I'm not racist? I'm not gonna hurt you. So just go along with it because they think it's a good idea. Well, and it's

Speaker 1 45:53

working right, they're gaining traction with these arguments. And they've been doing a weight sort of weight stigma awareness campaign, the major obesity advocacy, again, in quotation marks organizations have been doing weight stigma awareness for at least five years now in really obvious ways. And from before that, because they want fat patients, clients, customers, whatever to see them as their advocates. We are doing this for you because we care about you. The obesity Action Coalition, which has which gets almost all of its funding from a combination of diet pharma companies, or you know, pharma companies that make diet drugs, Novo Nordisk doesn't only make ozempic They also meant, you know, also like this where you get your insulin from so eat this company, we can't just burn down Novo Nordisk, at least not until we have some alternatives to some of the other things that they, you know, like people need ozempic People need those were diabetes care, it is effective in that way. But like Reagan Chastain points out that, like, you know, the, the way we get to these drugs for weight loss, specifically, is that we developed the drugs for diabetes, I'm like, Oh, my God, there's a side effect of this where people are losing weight. How can we exploit that? Right? Like, from my perspective, it is how can we exploit that? From the pharma companies perspective, they would say, how can we develop this an important tool to help our customers with their health? I mean, if you believe that great, like, companies are companies, their bottom line is the bottom line, your health is not the bottom line. big pharmaceutical companies have shown over and over again, they'll kill all the fat people if there's money to be made on the way to the US and everybody else to write like, there's like, there's a lot of if you know anything about sort of the pharmaceutical company playbook related to what led to the opioid crisis. It's a similar playbook, right? Yes. You caught the doctors, you know, you caught the doctors, you help them better understand that this is a complicated chronic disease. They shouldn't be judging their parent patients for being fat, they should be prescribing things to them. I

Vinny Welsby 48:12

said, I was saying like, in 20 years, 30 years, there's gonna be a whole documentary series, you know, movies about this being like, I can't believe they got away with it. It's so scandalous, like that one that was on Disney. I can't comment on it. There

Speaker 1 48:27

were there too. So I was I was sick in December. And while I was supposed to be resting, I made the it was a genius move on one hand, but it was sure depressing. I watched. There are too many series. They're not documentaries. There are many series. So there's some fictional but one is called dope sick. And it's. Yeah, and it's available on Hulu. And then the other one is called painkiller. It's available on Netflix. And those two, documentaries explore various aspects of how the opioid epidemic was created.

Vinny Welsby 49:02

And part

Speaker 1 49:03

of what what happens is, those drug companies work really hard to get people to think about pain differently. So they will think about prescribing for pain differently. That is the exact parallel of getting people to think about obesity as a disease versus as just a physical characteristic. And when I talk about like, when we look at the obesity numbers, we don't question enough about them. We don't first of all, we should question the designation of obesity as a disease. It is untrue for people to argue that there is no opposition to that designation. There is opposition there has always been opposition within the medical community within the scientific community about whether or not it was ever appropriate to classify obesity as a disease in the first place. But well classified like one of my favorite things to tell audiences is like the American Medical Association did that they had a committee study whether to do that for like, I think, a year. And the committee said, No, we don't think we should classify obesity as a disease. And then the American Medical Association said, Well, we do we're gonna do it anyway.

Vinny Welsby 50:11

Right that like, we're doing it by whatever.

Speaker 1 50:15

By that point, the National Institutes of Health, we're already calling it that, like the CDC calls it that the World Health Organization calls it that like, everybody now, in these systems, the organization's call it a disease, but it is false to believe that there are not people within the system and within those very organizations who think that that classification is wrong. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 50:34

And you know, what it's given me, it's given me I made a video recently, because I do I do also dei work. So I've made a video recently about in Canada. It's been a year since conversion therapy has been banned. Yeah, in Canada, but it's giving me you know, pray the pray the gay away, you know that giving me queerness as it is a disease. queerness is a choice. queerness is a problem. It's not your fault that you're queer. But here, we've got some solutions to make room not queer, we're

Speaker 1 51:08

going to have compassion for you, as you struggle with that thing like that we have that treat you and cure you of that thing. In the case of obesity, no one actually wants to cure obesity. The money is in chronic care for as many other things that are actual diseases, or like, I don't know what other things are labeled diseases that there's like a major, you know, voice of dissent about that, because I just don't that historically about things like, you know, homosexuality being in the what is the psychology? BDSM? Yes. Yeah. You know, like, I know, things like that historically. But like in a contemporary way, I don't know what else is out there that people are like that should not be labeled a disease in the first place. When we're resistant to having fatness labeled as a disease, and then called obesity. When we're resistant to that, I don't ever want us to be like reinforcing that there's something stigmatizing about having a disease, disease, they do not deserve to be stigmatized for having the disease. The stigma is in having a disease made up and manipulated about you. Just for the purpose of profits, or because people's underlying anti fatness is what has convinced them it's a disease, not actual science, right? We're science I tell people this all the time, like we get fat liberation is get accused of being science deniers, we're not science deniers,

Vinny Welsby 52:38

I feel like we're the opposite. We

Speaker 1 52:40

want you to look at all the sides. All the sites, we want you to fund more. So I was looking at something last night, what was I looking at, I was looking at something. And it was about the idea of the obesity paradox, which is like the obesity paradox is like, for people who have heart failure, like there's a higher risk up to a certain weight, but after that weight, those people actually are more likely to survive, even though they're higher BMI. That's kind of what the obesity paradox is. And so I was looking at this research about and like, I'm a layperson, but I'm not a researcher. I'm not a scientist, I'm a layperson reading this, but I'm looking at this research about whatever the obesity paradox is real, or whether when you just it has more to do with the body composition of people in that higher weight category. And that if you have, you know, the hip to height ratio, or the waist to height ratio or whatever, if you look at it like that, instead of just as BMI, that it proves that obesity is still dangerous, right? And then like the problem with that whole argument is, but what then what your obesity is diagnosed by BMI. So your your, your research is showing that BMI is not the determining factor in whether or not heart failure is more common in larger bodied or higher weight people, that BMI is not the determining factor. But then you're using a disease that is diagnosed by BMI. To say that people with that disease go in this category of like you're saying obesity is risky as a disease, because these people who are research just showed BMI is not the factor in why they are like it's just it was like there was all kinds alluded

Vinny Welsby 54:26

to so many contradictions in the science, right. And so people were like, I did some research on the research. I did a literature review on fatness and youth in Canada. And they were like, the research was like fat kids are doing okay, and diets don't work. So the solution is we should put fat kids on diets. And I'm just like, what? All the time,

Speaker 1 54:56

all the time. And like it's like the American Medical so session last year was like BMI is terrible. We finally admitted it's, it's kind of a racist. It's really problematic. And also, it's the best tool we have available. So we're going to keep using some other tools to designate even more people as fat. Yeah, it's just like, cognitive

Vinny Welsby 55:16

isn't as much like, what is going on.

Speaker 1 55:21

Here we used to like, but also what was key in this report I was reading last night was like, the head researcher just said, we saw those numbers. And we knew that couldn't be true, because we know obesity is bad. Yeah. You didn't go in with a research question. It wasn't is obesity bad? Yeah, he wasn't. Obesity. Dangerous is obesity. Is it true that obesity is a higher risk, you know, causes a higher risk of heart failure? You didn't go into your research with that question. You went into Europe with a statement, obesity. And so we have to figure out how this research that showed that it wasn't bad is wrong, because we already know it's bad categorically across a period. Yes. That's confirmation bias, right. Confirmation bias, but it's openly stated confirmation, just as a goal of research. Yeah. And, and then there's no leg questioning of that. So and so like to get us back to the obesity Bill of Rights. There's no questioning of conflict of interest, when new shows up to say, Yeah, that's right. We believe in the obesity Bill of Rights. Well, the obesity, right Bill of Rights has some really good stuff in it. You know, what we do want? We do want MRI machines that are big enough for the biggest people, we do want that? You know, we want? Would you want your doctor to treat you with respect and care, regardless of your body size? Yeah. So they're about I think there are four points in it that I'm like, Yeah, I agree with this. But you framed this as obesity care, not care for higher weight patients.

Vinny Welsby 56:53

That's the thing is,

Speaker 1 56:54

we care for all the fat people, you frame this as how we care for all the people who are designated as being being you know, living with the disease of obesity? And then you've categorized everyone under that definition based on their body size. Yeah,

Vinny Welsby 57:08

that's why I think it's so tricky is because they sandwich it between things, which are absolutely desirable and reasonable. And then, and then they put

Speaker 1 57:19

a multimillion dollar marketing firm behind it. So they're, of course, they're smart enough to do it that way.

Vinny Welsby 57:24

Yeah. And that's why it it really, really makes me frightened because as I'm doing this, the consulting I do in diversity, equity and inclusion. That bullshit is seeping into other people who, I don't know if they should know better, but I've seen other dei consultants say, our fatness is disease and we should get that fat people have access to this stuff, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Dude, that's you're literally just parroting pharmaceutical companies talking points. And they they can't they can't see it. Because they haven't done such a good job job of tricking people into thinking it's about social justice. Yeah. And

Speaker 1 58:11

because they've done such a good job of, you know, being the puppet masters behind the scenes in for much of this time. So like even now, like Novo Nordisk is not one of the organizations that has signed on to the obesity Bill of Rights, but but the National Council on Aging they funded they fund the obesity Action Coalition. I think they fund the Obesity Society like so you don't have to show up as yourself. You don't have to show up. You don't even have to show up as a wolf in sheep's clothing. You've just hired some chickens to send them to, you know, like, you're not the wolf. You don't even have to be the wolf in the hen house. You just hire a bunch of chickens to go into the hen house for you. Yeah, and that nobody is looking like isn't there? No. Oh, I guess. I combined see I'm mixing metaphors and I combined all the barnyard animals together sheeps and chickens and wolves and whatever, but like the I you know, the thing is like, Oh, it's a fox in the henhouse, and it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. I got it. I got it. But um, but the bottom line is still there. They're the foxes and wolves. And this is not Zootopia where the fox is actually like secretly a good guy. We've just missed stereotyped him. They are. It's bad. They're the bad one. That's right. And I have no doubt that there are good people in those systems who genuinely believe that they are doing God's work in improving people's health. I have no doubt. Some of those people would change their minds if they knew more of what we know. Yet some of them would, you know, but either because they still believe it's the right way or because of their own internalized bias or because of the check that they're getting from Novo Nordisk. And this is the thing about conflicts of interest. We don't, medical organizations do not include you work thing with a pharmaceutical company as about obesity as a conflict of interest when you are doing things about obesity, it regularly happens that you will see these reports where there's a disclosure of conflict of interest statements. And there's no mention of the fact that many people who worked on the report actually get funding from a pharmaceutical company. It is people, you know, people like Reagan and other people who like do that kind of research on behalf of fat advocacy communities that go and find that out. Like, it's not like the National Council of aging was like, by the way, we get a bunch of money from Novo Nordisk. So of course, we think these diet drugs should be covered by Medicare. The I've had to look at their annual reports to see that they get money from No, no layperson person who's not, you know, spending, you know, 60 hours a week as the director of an organization about fat advocacy is looking at the annual reports of other organizations to get money from pharma. It's not about the

Vinny Welsby 1:00:57

the casino it was the aging company, and then also the National cash consumer League. Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:01:04

I didn't I didn't dig into their financials. But I mean, I, the National Consumer League, you have business interests involved in this coalition through new wastewater? I don't, I haven't, I haven't thought about that one as deeply. I've thought more about the aging stuff just because to me, part of the part of what's ridiculous to me about the aging stuff is like, Y'all are the same people who were trying to convince us that there were no fat old people. Before they get old. Same people who say stuff like, you know, you've you've never seen a bunch of fat old fat people because there aren't that many of them. Like you're this you are the same. I mean, I'm not saying that the National Council of aging or even Novo Nordisk literally said that the eye, the specter of early death, is one of the most motivating things for people, even people who have fat liberationist beliefs, when it comes to fearing for their health, because of the things that they are told, are the only possibilities in a larger body. Always they're from the trolls on the internet, who are telling you you're gonna die by 30. Hi, I'm 49. But if I die tomorrow, they're gonna be like a tiger Stein, so tragically young, and it's all because she was fat. You know, and like, so these are still like, this is a narrative that you used to not cabling. So and then they said in their, in their press release, or one of the articles that I read the, you know, they were like, we did this grassroots research, because they had these like, I think they call them town halls that they claim they had all over the country, but it looks like they had four of them. That's it's a much bigger country than four town halls, for your grassroots movement. But you know, where they talk to elders, and elders reported to them, that they feel isolated and overlooked in obesity care? Hmm, well, first of all, they feel isolated and overlooked in a lot of health care ways, in your focusing, but you don't have a million dollars of funding from those other issues. So you're not talking to them about that. Yeah. First of all, that second of all, of course, they feel isolated, because you focused all your stuff on obesity care on the people that you thought you could make the most money off of. So until you decided you wanted to go after Medicare, you weren't thinking about them. You are what you're thinking about when you're Think about who you can make the most money off of, and you're building a narrative that this is a chronic illness that will need treatment for the rest of your life. You want to get those 20 and 30 year olds, because you got 30 years of money to make. You don't the 60 year old, do you have 30 years of money make off them. And based on the narratives you've been upholding? No, you don't have any years off them if they're 60 and fat, right? You've been telling yourself that and telling us that. But now, the ripple effects of getting to treat them for two or three years. But getting to treat them through Medicare means that all the other systems have to fall in line with what Medicare is doing. So you can get that 20 or 30 year old from that poor black community that you did not care about any other time. But now that think you can get insurance to pay for what they couldn't pay for out of pocket. All of a sudden you care about them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you know, so it's like, Who do you believe Right? Like I tell people all this, I have this like, it feels kind of silly, but like I often use this like fried chicken analogy where like, if the leading people telling you if like leading medical associations are telling you like, fried chicken is the healthiest thing that you could eat, it will change your life, it'll create longevity, reduce the risk of strokes, it'll do all of these things. Right. And you were like, that seems interesting. Okay. And then you found out that those organizations got all their funding from KFC. Questions about that, right? You might be like, Well, why is Colonel Sanders donating $8 billion to the American Medical Association, right. But when it comes to like pharmaceuticals and obesity, and the same thing is for the weight loss surgeons, the same thing is for the other kinds of treatment programs, commercial and medical treatment programs. You just get to say you're an obesity expert. Like you just got to be Colonel Sanders being like, well, of course, I know the most about fried chicken. I'm a fried chicken expert. Yeah. And he goes like, but don't you have a conflict of interest here? No, I'm a fried chicken expert. Right? That's how it works with like, quote unquote, obesity experts is that, you know, they just get to say like, Well, I've been spending 20 years helping people fail at weight loss. Therefore I

Vinny Welsby 1:05:46

write organizations, they say, Oh, we've been around since the 80s. I'm like, you've been doing a really shit job because fat people

Speaker 1 1:05:53

still exist. What I love is like, why are why is the obesity epidemic still spreading when we're putting so much work into it? Because we're putting dumbass work into it? Just, I mean, first of all, also, it's spreading, because y'all keep changing the numbers of where people get designated as obese. So you're going to add millions of people, if you drop the BMI cut off for what obesity is. Okay, so first of all that, but then yeah, people but human bodies are changing. We are also, you know, as a species, taller than we were 300 years ago. But we're not like, oh, the height crisis. It's killing everybody. Yeah, no, I, I just I don't because we don't have we don't have a long standing cultural narrative that height is people's own fault. So we don't have a way to aid people into spending money trying to reduce their height, we do have ways to shame people into increasing their height, like we have things that we do to, you know, we have narratives and medical narratives for little people to go undergo dramatic surgeries for leg lengthening, like we have that parallel that exists, but like, but even that it's not like there are you know, there were there aren't 93 million little people in the United States. So the market is different for for, you know, an even even at even sort of like non little people short stature folks, like just your friend who's a little bit short, like, we the numbers aren't, we don't count that the same way. We don't categorize it the same way. We don't label it as disease the same way. So it's not a market in the same Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 1:07:36

Talking about Hi, I noticed in your so Nafa had a press release, which was in response to this obesity Bill of Rights. And in it you mentioned height as well as weight and how we shouldn't be stigmatizing. either. Why is the wise height pulled in? Is it because for legal grounds is easier to bring height into? Or is it because the height weight ratio for the BMI? or is there other some other connection there that you're not making? It's all

Speaker 1 1:08:11

of that stuff, actually. So we first of all, like perceptions of being fat can be related to your height. Yes. So like, you know, so when we say when we say size discrimination, we are not always talking just about literally weight discrimination, we're sometimes talking about body shape discrimination or perceptions of fat, or like accept the acceptable amount of body tone, like there's, like all these different things that we can mean when we're saying like, you know, your, your employer might be treating you unfairly because of your body size. It's not necessarily that they're putting on a scale and treating you unfairly it's they're looking at you and thinking a thing about your body. And sometimes combination of weight and height is really important to understanding that biased. But also, there are ways in which especially around physical access discrimination, right around people meeting, accessibility. Height is like a legit reason why you might need you might need reasonable accommodations in your workplace and your school and your, you know, whatever. And height in both directions. Actually, you know, if you're super tall kid, and you need something at your school, you're probably going to get it because nobody is going to be like, well, this tall kid could just go on a diet and get shorter, right? So you're probably gonna get it right. But if you didn't get it, you would need some kind of recourse for like, okay, it's there's this whatever, these deaths these attached desks at my school are impossible for me because my legs can't fold up under that because I'm too tall. So I should get a dip. They should get a different chair for me. I should have to bring my own chair right. So there are ways there are ways that height both for very tall people and for very short people. And again, not just for you People who are actually dwarves, right, who were actually little people. And in, you know, we're getting to know the LPA Little People of America. And one of the things I know is like people sometimes hear dwarves and they don't like, they like, they think I should be saying people with dwarfism, they have the same debates in their community about that. We have. So often I just mix it up in acknowledgment that they have those debates. But um, but anyway, like, you know, short statured, people who actually have dwarfism have some protections under the Americans with Disabilities Act in the United States, because that is actual medical and physical condition, like dwarfism was actually, you know, like, that's a real thing, not a made up thing that they just applied to all the short people, like obesity is epic, they apply to all the fat people. The so like, it's complicated around that community, in particular, because they do have some legal protections that just sort of a person who has less than average height does not have they don't qualify for, if you're five feet tall, but you don't have dwarfism, you don't qualify for the ADEA. And, you know, if you needed action around something, um, but so, so anyway, the height piece is important, both in terms of perceptions of body size, like perceptions of fat, and this based on, you know, if you weigh this and you're six feet tall, that's different than if you weigh this, and you're five and a half feet tall, right? It is also like body size discrimination is about all the body sizes. And even in that canyon, we know that there are ways that culturally tall people are preferenced. But in terms of access things, like if you had to drive a company car, and you were very tall, could you just not get that promotion, because they don't have a car that you fit or whatever, like, it's all still relevant, and we still want to be in solidarity. And the pushback is always about the fat people. Nobody ever shows up to testify against this bill. Because if tall people don't like the way the world treats them, they should just stay home. That's never where people get pissed. We're never gonna see like Fox News reports about the tall guy who actually asked to sit in the exit row on the planes and get some extra leg room like we're never going to see that right. And the iron is always directed at the fat people, because it is always so like, you should just change instead of the system changing for Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So. So it is like we do have to have solidarity with people who are facing body size discrimination in other ways. And we do have to acknowledge that the fire around it is always getting, you know, almost always getting directed at the fat people.

Vinny Welsby 1:12:44

Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:45

It's legislation stuff, especially.

Vinny Welsby 1:12:47

So with all of this bullshit that's going on, I just, I just felt anxious about it, you know, because I just don't want them to win. It just so do you have any advice for people to like, protect themselves from messaging from the anti fat Wolf's in sheep's clothing people? Or any any, any hope on the horizon? Because you're talking to media outlets. And you you've mentioned that there are some media outlets who are friendly to fat liberation versus Let's kill all the fat people. Some are friendly

Speaker 1 1:13:30

to racial or who are just at least professionally committed to their both sides ism going in both ways as a journalist, like what one of the things we see a lot from the media is, if anybody talks about fat rights, fat liberation, fat activism, even just fat people are human. Then somebody has to be interviewed to talk about how terrible obesity is. We don't there's no parodying there, right? There's no like, every time we run an article about how terrible obesity is, we need to talk to a fat activist who questions this paradigm. There's not that that's not a journalistic standard that exists across the industry across the media. But there are journalists who, you know, I care about exploring many sides of the issue, who are always going to look for a voice from fat activism because they know that activism exists. We are outnumbered and outgunned when it comes to we are outnumbered and outgunned if we only had to go against one of these organizations. Because these organizations have budgets in the millions. And we don't and even like the obesity Action Coalition, which is the one I know best. Is like they will talk all the time about how like we're an all volunteer organization. Okay. But when you're an all volunteer organization that has a $7 million annual budget, that is not the same as malby volunteer organization. Are you kidding me? And you have a seven you Have some million dollar budget, and you just have pharmaceutical companies doing shit for you for free. Yeah, right. So you're not even you don't even have to spend all the $7 million to do to execute things. Because when you have an annual conference, you don't have to dig all the way into your $7 million budget that came from weight loss surgeons and pharmaceutical companies and weightwatchers. Because Weight Watchers and the pharmaceutical companies are gonna sponsor the conference to on top of it, so like, I just like, the idea that we're unmatched. Right? This is not me giving hope you asked me how have you people

Vinny Welsby 1:15:33

tygris.

Speaker 1 1:15:36

Okay, so that yeah, I went, I went back into more evidence that they are terrible, but like, is spaces like this are incredibly important. And they are incredibly important for Fat people not to only recommend to other fat people. If you listen to this podcast, and you thought it was really interesting. Send it to your lefty friend who is not a fat liberationists But he's an anti capitalist. Why are there so anti capitalist who will not question the diet industry and will not will not question pharmaceutical industry when it comes to fat people. But you just said you hate like you Why do you hate Walmart but you don't hate Weight Watchers? Say that in this podcast? I'm having deja vu. I might have said that twice. But that's you didn't? Why do you hate Walmart and not hate Weight Watchers, even if you have no questions about why you don't want to lose weight, or you don't think other people should be forced to or whatever. But like Why aren't you just just interested in that as a capitalist force?

Vinny Welsby 1:16:37

You know what I think I might might my theory is that they've been convinced by all of this Tom fuckery that it's it's a social justice as you cheer fatness.

Speaker 1 1:16:49

But that's why one of the things that we can do is make sure that we are having these conversations, not just in, in fact community but with our friends who have similar values that are so rooted in our community, right? It's sort of like the what I was saying about like, even within this community, like most people don't have time to look at the annual reports of 35 organizations that are on this list and see if they got money from Novo that's most of you are not going to do that. And that's reasonable. But now that you understand that, that's how it works. You might just notice more when you see Novo mentioned or when you see, like Millie Lilly mentioned or Abbott pharmaceuticals mentioned, and like you might just notice it more, or you might at least have the questions. I think there are more people asking questions. I mean, there is, you know, there's there's some hope in the fact that the this coalition had they had a press conference at the National Press Club. And we've only seen a couple articles about this bill of rights, because that could have that could have been like, they had a press press conference at the National Press Club. And then all week long, all we saw was nothing but articles about this bill of rights.

Vinny Welsby 1:18:00

But I haven't heard about it until you told me.

Speaker 1 1:18:05

Yeah, so we hadn't. Like it's I mean, they're playing a long game. This is a thing that it's important to know about that. The pharmaceutical companies are playing a long game. This is we talked about billions of dollars. And we're talking about billions of dollars that even if they fuck up and ruin everything and get sued for that, they will still be rich people like unless they actually go to jail for shading this, they will still have their rich people lives and it'll just be a matter of scale, right? It's are they billions? Are they millionaires, right? They're not going back to the 1000 errors if they're a CEO of a pharmaceutical company, even if they get millions of dollars of fines, because they will already have made so much fucking money, that it's just like, so like, that's not where the hope is, right? But where the hope is, is that we have people creating resources like this, like we have power podcasts are powerful tools. Blogs are still powerful tools. You know, your, your tweets are, I don't know what we call them on X, I refuse to call it x. Like, with actual human beings, I will call you whatever you tell me your name is with corporations. I will call you what I want to call you know, this ain't pronouns for organizations, right? This is, you know, it's Twitter. So like, um, you know, like, there is a lot of power in that and like policymakers don't listen to tweets, but policy but tweets, but journalists listen to tweets, and then that then things get into the New York Times and public policy, listen to makers listen to that. Right. So like, here's, there's hope that there's more dialogue about this kind of things. There are people asking more critical questions. They're, you know, we have to sometimes work from a harm reduction frame point, like, There gonna get these drugs covered. Yeah, they're going to get these drugs covered. There's I don't, I'm trying to imagine all the various places in the mall. multiverse and I would like somebody to come here through a portal and show me how they did it in some other multiverse where they don't get the drugs covered. But until that happens, I can't see a way, no matter how much I have, you know, hope and abundance thinking and all that I can't see a way that these drugs do not get covered by Medicare and by the NHS. But I but what we can do is work on harm reduction in the coverage of them. And like, you know, education campaigns that help people understand the real risks of the drugs, the help people ask questions about the long term effects of the drugs, like, you know, we can do harm reduction in that way. And also, we can hopefully do harm reduction in ensuring that, you know, the bill language when these bills pass doesn't cause unintended consequences for fat people, like the intended consequence is covered these drugs and continue to cover weight loss surgery for people who won't do take the drugs, and maybe cover a little of some of the other things too. And if that means that some people get good nutritional counseling, or, you know, weight neutral therapy, or something that is positive, covered by their insurance. That's, you know, at least there's a little bit of silver lining there. But I just like calling shenanigans on the shenanigans is really important to me. Even when it does affect the ultimate outcome, because like, you don't you don't get to call this a grassroots movement. You don't get to say that you're doing intersectional social justice work with and go unchallenged. If I can't say but you know, a gnat in the ear, then at least we get we lined it up a lot more nets in their ears.

Vinny Welsby 1:21:43

Yes, and we can both be nets. And that is special.

Speaker 1 1:21:47

And in terms of protection, I think just like fat community is the self protection, getting your balls around some people who will question these things, even if they're not sure what the answers are, who will at least question the motives of these juggernauts of weight loss.

Vinny Welsby 1:22:06

And as, as and as being there as fat community for when people are recovering from taking these drugs, because because, I mean, they they give you weight loss to begin with, but a year at a year point, you're already beginning to put weight on and so being that soft place to land for people who are like, Well, that was fucked up and horrible. And we can be there for them. Yeah,

Speaker 1 1:22:31

and also, frankly, like for people who are going to lose loved ones to these kinds of drugs and procedures, you know, there's some really passionate folks in fat lib community whose passion comes from the fact that they lost people to weight loss surgery, you know, and, and, like, I would rather they have their loved ones than us have them as advocates, but they don't. We do. And, like, glad that they have us as like you said, like a soft place to land. I mean, it can be really frustrating, especially when folks kind of kind of like flounced away from community to claim these things. You know, we saw this wave at the beginning of the year of like, like, you know, influencers that were sort of like, I used to love my curvy body, but I'm trying to get there now that I can get ozempic or whatever and like, you know, okay, I mean Cool story, bro. And if that works out for you carry on and if it doesn't, you know, then we we do like I know there are a lot of people were like, and if it doesn't, then good riddance because you shouldn't burn that bridge with us. You should just with the fat community, by flouncing away to pursue intentional weight loss and also if you do that, and you fall on your face, I am not saying that you should just have like the warm welcome mat rolled back out to you automatically. I do think those are bridges that can be rebuilt when people are ready to do like a real work around rebuilding. Yeah, cuz I think like I get bounced away and then just dance on back like Hey, guys, did you miss me? Like, you gotta come with some humility, and with some and with some commitment to changing attitudes like sharing with people what you learned the hard way so that you're willing, or whatever, you got to come back with something, you can't just come back, like empty handed and sad.

Vinny Welsby 1:24:26

Because I think the reason why they flounced away is they probably have a shit ton of anti fatness, deep down in them that they've not ever looked at. And then that allure of fineness was too much to say no to and so, if they've come back and said, I've looked at my own anti fatness, then then we can be like, very good.

Speaker 1 1:24:47

And I think also like, especially for folks who are from multiple identities that experience body based discrimination. You know, that the pursuit of weight loss can feel like a way of surviving, right, it can feel like, it feels like self protection. I mean, it can feel like that for everybody. But especially if you've got it coming at you from a bunch of different directions, you've got racism, or you've got anti trans, you know, everything coming at you, from the government on down or you've got, you know, anti queer stuff or whatever that you are dealing with. And ableism, you know, that we disabled people get told all the time that if they would lose some weight, their disability would magically cure itself, even when that's 100% Impossible. But like, you know, there's all these ways where like, the promise of weight loss might not be just about vanity, it might actually, it might be about sort of like socio cultural privilege, but actually, like, I think this makes or breaks the difference between whether I make it to the next year. I, we know that, more often than not, it doesn't actually do that. But I think succumbing to it, for those reasons is a little bit different than the people who just like, want to wear cute clothes, or whatever, right, is different. And in the end, you know, do you want to if you want to be part of community, you have to be part of community in ways that are not harming the rest of the community. So if you go to pursue this magical dream, and the and it all crashes and burns, you can't come back here with your toxic knus you have to detox before you come, you know, like, or, like, you have to come in and contain spaces where there are people who are willing to help you detox or whatever. But I do think that, you know, I mean, I might have, you know, just on a sort of like, individually, just like I was telling you about Toby Keith earlier today, like, I don't generally like cheer when people die. Like, you know, just that guy, yay. And then like, ultimately, like where my values actually are, it's like, I wish he had lived and redeemed himself and stop being a racist, and bla bla bla bla bla, but he didn't so yay. But like, also, he wasn't part of my community. For folks who are, I've been in community with. And they do a different thing than what I would do or what I think I would do or what I like to think I would do. And then they want to come back into community. You know, their mind might have that pity moment of like, Oh, I see Oh, here you come, you know, cool. So, um, and also, some of them may get back in because they're coming back and acting like assholes, you know, knocking at the door, I feel like an asshole you're stepping on the side of the door. But I do think that there are folks that we can we can be that soft space for, you know, really like healing way that then ultimately builds community. Right. So. But I think and I think that is where some of the beauty lies is like, and for the rest of us who just stay in community and experience the beauty. Right? It's what we talked about at the top of the hour about like being at Fat con and what that felt like, we can generate those feelings in so many other spaces. And that is the armor against those if it goes if it goes if it goes if it goes epic, yes. You're in a space where you don't have to hear that all

Vinny Welsby 1:28:02

the time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Tigris, how can people support you and NASA

Speaker 1 1:28:09

if you have money given money, right, like, let's be coy about that, if you have money to give, whether that's $3 $300 $3,000 I mean, if you got $30,000, please holler at me immediately, but like, you know, if you, if you have money, give it to us. And if NASA is not the right fat activist space for you to give it to find the one that is or find the fat mutual aid that you can support or whatever, like give money and community support, you know, the businesses that support us. And, and, and, you know, and the Patreon of people that support us and the like, all of you know, in all the ways and again, especially for folks who are fat and also facing those other kinds of discrimination. For us, if you want to give to NASA, you can do that through our website, nasa.org/give an A F A dot o RG slash give and, you know, follow us on social media engage with our content, you know, likes to get likes comments, you know, get joggers algorithm. You know, it's the trolls get bigger and more consistent, and the more we drown out their voices with voices of love and support, then the safer and more encouraging. Our online spaces are in fact community. So we're Nafa official on most of the things we are most active on Instagram, but we are you know, we're on most of the other things that you love, and we'll hopefully soon be on some of the ones we're not we're not really on tick tock. We're not really on tick tock. But, but we are working on that for this year. And I think we will have some tick tock presents this year. But we're never official on all of the things if you see an ad for something else that is not us, there is another organization. I think it's a I think it's a firearms organization. That is oh, that us, we have not shifted the platform. If you want to follow me personally, I'm I'm also most active on Instagram. But same thing like I'm on all the things, I'm just not that accurate on the other ones. My handle is I have, do people still say handle is yes at my thing. My, my name on Instagram is I have the Tigris letter I O. F. The Tigris? And, and yeah, I think that's and you know, sign up for our newsletter, how Oh, and definitely We didn't talk as much about legislation as I do in some other settings. But we are working, you know, together with our colleagues at flair, the fat legal advocacy rights and education project. We co founded the campaign for size, Freedom last year, we got some support from dove in doing that. And you know, like see, we just say who our corporate partners are, you don't have to go read, you know, research that's online to find out who our corporate partners are. And if you have questions about dove, ask us those questions. I have questions about that. And I ask them those questions. So it's a little different than those Novo relationships with and weightwatchers relationships with other quote unquote, advocacy organizations. But I digress. We, the campaign for science freedom works to uplift the conversation around passing legislation to outlaw size discrimination. And, and then to support the passage of that legislation by supporting local organizers who are working on that legislation. So this year, we'll be you know, supporting legislation in New York at the state level, as many of you listeners probably know, New York City passed some legislation last year, but New York level, New Jersey, Vermont, Massachusetts, which I think will be the next state, I think I My money is on Massachusetts to be the next state to pass anti discrimination legislation based on body size. And so that will be something certainly to celebrate, it's fine. I think it's gonna happen in Massachusetts this year, I mean, knock on all the things or whatever you do for good vibes. But and, and also, possibly a couple more states this year, there are some things brewing in some places. There is a anti wait bullying bill in Colorado that we will also help support. So and we expect Colorado next year, possibly still this year, but definitely next year, to introduce like a fuller scale civil rights bill. But right now we know for sure that there will be a bill against weight bullying in schools. So that is a great way to protect fat kids. So anyway, all of that stuff is on our website, under the campaign for size freedom tab, where we also have a petition that you can sign and if you sign the petition, and give us permission to contact you, then when we start doing work in your area, or we hear about local organizers doing work in your area, we will let you know. All of the ways that's you know, that's all, I think that's all of the ways to find me. You can see all of our old Nafa webinars on our YouTube channel, which is also naffaa official. And we've just interviewed some like really amazing people over the years. You know, I do the webinars show, Marcy Cruise does our fashion show. We have other kinds of special events. But we've had everybody from, you know, from Dijon, Harrison to Dr. Sean Cooper, you know, we've like we just had a wide wide range of scholars and activists and artists, Mary Lambert and and you know, our last one was with comedians Nikki Bailey and Chris grace, like, we just have really fantastic people who come and talk to us about being in their fat bodies and then just doing the badass stuff that they do. And and people can watch like, those are all free on our YouTube channel.

Episode 183 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Potato recipes and dairy sensitivity. 0:00

• Body shaming and weight issues. 4:40

• Body shaming and exclusion on a shopping trip. 11:07

• Weight, disability, and family dynamics. 15:40

• Parental influence on a child's body image and eating habits. 20:06

• Body shaming and parenting. 25:56

• Body shaming and furniture concerns. 30:20

• Fatphobia and seating comfort in a social setting. 36:10

• Weight and travel plans with a controlling tone. 42:05

• Body image and attraction in relationships. 47:23

• Body image and fatphobia. 52:29

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to The Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 183: Am I The asshole for telling my daughter-in-law. She wasn't invited due to her weight. We're reading Reddit posts today. I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Hello, welcome to the show happy 2024 But no, yeah, you alive still. You are me too. So I'm excited that you're here. And we've got a cheer Yossi G. Yossi. Repeat after me, gee, you say, juicy. Show. Today, we've got a friend of the show. And a friend of mine in real life, summer in summer has her own podcast, eat the rules, but she has like 50 million episodes, and it's really good. And she has guests. So if you want to go and listen to somebody's podcast, after listening to this episode, then you should do that because I don't really have guests and somebody does. So I'm just so self obsessed. I don't want to share the mic with anyone else. Because I know it all. That was sarcasm by the way. And if you appreciate this fat content, then go to Kofi Cato, FYI, forward slash, first fatty, or go to the show notes where there's going to be a link and sign up to be a baby fat $5 A month you'll get the access to the incredible 30 Save 37 Page Size diversity Resource Guide, which includes links to all the best social media accounts to follow TEDx talks, to watch TED talks, to watch books to read podcasts ready to listen to Facebook groups, you can join cloves, where to shop science resources and other helpful info all for just five bucks. Or you can do 10 bucks or 20 bucks you get more stuff. You get more stuff. If you were do that. That would be amazing. If you did that. You don't have to I ain't the boss of you. But if you do like fat content, then that would be cool. That'd be real cool. So let's go do some time traveling and go and visit Vinnie and summer in the past and talk about am I the asshole on what the bloody hell is I am the asshole anyway let's do it. So hey Summer.

Summer 2:48

Hi, Vinny.

Vinny Welsby 2:50

Don't talk to me God I was just gonna go on a monologue. You're not here to talk. He just listened to me. Now you're allowed to talk go and then you say hello, whatever you want to say.

Summer 3:04

That's all I was gonna say. I was gonna say you need to share your potato recipe with everybody.

Vinny Welsby 3:10

Oh, I went around someone's house on Christmas day and I made potatoes which was put mashed potato on the bottom which had Irish cheddar and cream salt and pepper, whatever. And then on top was sliced like dough from wild potatoes with garlic and Parmesan. Palmer's Parmesan has as you North American say Parmesan, as I would say baked in the oven so it might be crispy on the top and soft in the middle some I liked it I liked it. someone's husband liked it some summers baby liked it not baby child. Everyone liked it and I liked eating your meat and other stuff you gave me

Summer 3:49

my beef curtains

Vinny Welsby 3:53

Jovica and I went to lay my beef it was

Summer 3:58

really good it was it was really really good. No it was like I think I would highly recommend that recipe you should share it in your stories with the link

Vinny Welsby 4:06

I'll stay I'll share it in the in the podcast episode show notes and you can sit you can share it with your people

Speaker 1 4:13

and you know it's better it didn't give me diarrhea and I'm like really sensitive to dairy but

Vinny Welsby 4:19

wow see Irish cheese maybe the Irish cheese you know what maybe it is the Irish cheese it's better cheese.

Speaker 1 4:26

It actually it is that's the only cheese I can eat is like the Kerrygold cheese that I get. Ah yeah.

Vinny Welsby 4:34

Anti diarrhea potatoes love it. I'm going to market it like that. Okay

Unknown Speaker 4:43

all right, let's get into this.

Vinny Welsby 4:45

So I was having summer about something called Am I the asshole and someone says what is that? I've never heard of it. And so some of you might not have heard of it. Some of you may have heard of it and are obsessed like I am I was watching YouTube videos of people reading Am I the asshole stories are basically what it is on Reddit. The only reason why I would go on to Reddit is to go on to am I the asshole? It's a thread where people ask, Was it asshole in this situation? Or is the other person the asshole? Or were both of us the assholes are what none of us see ourselves and then the Reddit community will decide if you're the asshole or not. And so there'll be lots of different posts from lots of different types of people. And when I'm reading people's responses, a lot of times they're from people on Reddit and so a lot of times their response is I'm like, I don't really trust trust that response because they are clearly addicted or maybe the people don't have the same views as summer summer and I in regards to anti fatness anti diet, all that type of stuff. And I sit there's a lot of stuff on me they also about diet stuff and and anti fatness and I thought, let's mean some I have a chinwag because I think that you you lot you lot the listeners are gonna enjoy hearing our perspectives, cuz you're obsessed with us, obviously. Like I was say December before making not joke. Obsessive me, anyway,

Speaker 1 6:16

do you ever? Do you ever chime in on those Reddit threads? Like you read them? Do you ever? Do you ever comment? Fuck

Vinny Welsby 6:23

no. Okay, you're just a voyeur. Sometimes you know what, because I love these things so much. I follow people reshare posts on Facebook and also on Instagram. Like one time I made a comment on Instagram. And people like dog piled and was like, Yeah, you can't say that. Like they were disagreeing with me. Because I was like, oh, it's not nice to shame someone you know, even if they're being mean to you about their body. You know? Yeah. And people were like, yes, it is. We should definitely shame someone who shames someone for their body for their body. And I'm like, No. And yeah, it's

Speaker 1 7:00

just not a safe space to ever comment on anything online. I agree. I agree. So I was like, oh, maybe you have like this alter, like alternate life where you

Vinny Welsby 7:10

made my pretended mentor. I should pretend to be like a a man, a white man would like a profile picture. And then no one would disagree with my comments. Wise, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 7:25

You know, knows, he knows. Yes.

Vinny Welsby 7:27

So I've pulled out a selection of stories. And we're gonna have a chat about it. And before we do a trigger warning about the stories because they're coming from people who have anti fat pro diet views. So if you're not in that headspace today, then you know, skip on by. I'm not going to be sharing specific sizes or weights or things around food. I'll say, you know, I won't say someone weighs x pounds or say they're a small fat or they're not fat or whatever. Yeah. Anything you want to say about that? No, that's good. Are you ready for our first story?

Unknown Speaker 8:12

I'm so ready.

Vinny Welsby 8:14

If you're feeling comfortable, then we shall begin. Okay, by the way, all the links for the stories will have in the show notes. Okay, so first story, am I the asshole and by the way, you'll see am I the asshole abbreviated to a I T E? So if you see that that's what that means. Am I the asshole for telling my daughter in law? She wasn't invited due to her weight. So initial reaction just from the title their summer? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 8:43

you're the asshole.

Vinny Welsby 8:50

I was like, Oh, you're

Unknown Speaker 8:52

so it gets so much worse.

Vinny Welsby 8:54

You just get worse. Let's read it. Okay, so the story is we have done plenty of things that are not physically taxing with her. But even the small stuff she ends up on a bench half the day. We went to a small mall half of the day on half of the day on the bench. It was window shopping. She is a word. Her ankles are swollen from her weight. The connection between her weight and not walking far without a break is very obvious. I will try to keep this short. I have three girls and we still like to do girl trips for the days might for the day. My son got married to a girl named Beth. Now before her first kids she was average weighs quotations, whatever that means. And after it got a lot worse her only kid is eight years old at this point and she hasn't lost the weight is bad enough that she needs to she needs constant breaks walking. If I could I roll for my eyes to fall out of my head. already. Yeah, I knew I used to like her. And now I don't do to do to how she acts. Everywhere we go Go with her. It's a constant complaining that she is tired. The last girl's trip to the mall was spent sitting on a bench half the day since she needed constant breaks. The you tried to leave you will go on about abandoning her. It's annoying. I invited the girls to go to a farm for pumpkin patch and pick some apples. It has big orchards and a ton of walking. We went to a great we went and it was a great time and some pictures went on Facebook. I got a call from Beth asking why she wasn't invited. I lied, saying it was just a family trip. And she accused me of lying. I had enough and told her the truth. I told her that she wasn't invited due to her weight, that she forces us to stop all the time. And it ruins the trips. Most days since we don't get to do half the stuff. She called me a jerk and hung up. I'm getting texts from my son saying to apologize. But the girls presumably her children are on my side and are sick of having trips ruined since we have to wait for her all the time. So she is that person? The asshole? Yeah.

Speaker 1 11:06

And I actually think she's sparing the poor daughter in law by not being around her because who would want to be around a person like that? I

Vinny Welsby 11:16

know. What's for me like definitely the asshole. What do you think that the public said? Do you think that they said they're the asshole or not?

Speaker 1 11:27

I mean, I know because I read it that they don't think that she's the asshole, which is really awful. Because in any in any other circumstance, like if the person was like old or disabled, then this mother or mother in law would be the asshole. Right. But because it's fatness people are you know, anti fatness is so normalized. And that people were on her side? On the mother in law side? Yeah,

Vinny Welsby 12:00

exactly. Yeah, that's the first thing I thought like, imagine if it was like, Oh, my daughter in law uses a mobility aid. And sometimes she needs a wrist. Oh, will it decode? She's rubbing off fun. And then people would be like, What the fuck is wrong with you? Like, hello. But because because the person is fat? I bet they're thinking, well, she could just become thin and not be such a burden on this poor woman that just wants to shop with her girls and not have it ruined by some greedy fat monster that wants to have a break.

Speaker 1 12:33

Yeah, I mean, I think this woman like obviously, the mother in law obviously hates the daughter in law as a person as well, I think because I feel like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. And I also think she hates herself because people who are who don't hate themselves don't treat other people like that. But I but I also think that she just doesn't like the daughter in law. In addition, and maybe you can't separate those two things. Maybe yes, like all she sees, right. But yeah, I feel as though especially just because of the way that she reacted when the daughter called her about it like that. She was just such that she was just like so. You know, cruel about everything that she doesn't want a relationship with her. Yeah. Which means she doesn't want a relationship with her grandson, which means she's like, even more of an asshole.

Vinny Welsby 13:27

Yeah. What so what would you say to the people who are like, well, the mother in law is right. She is ruining the trip by having to, quote, sit down for half the day.

Speaker 1 13:42

How was that ruining the trip? Just modify the trip. Like just make accommodations for people I don't understand like, so she needs to sit down. So sit down for a bit and then go do your thing separate for a bit like, I don't understand how that's ruining the trip.

Vinny Welsby 13:58

Yeah. But the mother in law said that the daughter in law says she, if you try to leave, she will go on about abandoning her. It's annoying.

Unknown Speaker 14:12

What do you think about that?

Vinny Welsby 14:14

I think that the mother in law is probably exaggerating to the extreme like, yeah, like, go on about abandoning her and has to sit down for half a day and the trip is ruined. Like that seems like is that really what happened? Or was it that she was like, Oh, I'm just gonna have a little break I'm gonna sit down and then they because the mother on or doesn't like her. She's like, Oh, and is exasperated and see and is exaggerating. And even if she wasn't exaggerating, it just to me, it sounds suspicious. It's like, I wonder if the daughter in law had a post. I bet you it'd be very different, like my mother in law, like excludes me from trips. And every time I sit down, she has a go with me or whatever. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1 15:04

like I imagine this mother in law. And I'm making huge sweeping assumptions here, but probably has focused a lot of her life around trying to maintain her body or is naturally thin, and therefore holds this like belief of superiority. And, and therefore, yeah, makes like exaggerations, like this to say, to have people kind of, you know, get her back in the situation.

Vinny Welsby 15:40

So the verdict from everyone, like we mentioned is they said that this woman is not the asshole. The top comment said, at the risk of being called fat phobic good for you. You're not the asshole. Why should your trips revolve around her? Well, I don't think they are. Why should you be forced to plan outings that are within your daughter in law's step limit? Because that's a nice thing to do. Finally, you're free to only invite your actual daughters to things to you aren't blocking her from any and all family gatherings? She just got blocked from this one, which I hope is the first of many trips you and your daughters have been putting off for her sake, get out there and see the world like that common is trash. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 16:27

Yeah. Like it's terrible, right? Because again, if you put any other label on the person, like mobility aids, or like, it's my grandmother can't walk very far. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 16:40

The thing is, like, if you, if you need accommodations, for everything, for anything, you don't expect that you are able to go to everything, right. So if you whatever accommodations that you you need, you know that a lot of places are not able to meet those accommodations, for whatever reason. And so I don't think the daughter in law is like, you can never do anything without me. And if you do, you know, you're a terrible person, but it sounded like this was like a family outing that she was just no, not invited to. And so it's like, say, if you have to make a few accommodations to make sure that the daughter in law can come isn't really that big of a deal. No.

Speaker 1 17:29

The other the other piece of this is, is the fact that the assumption that her ability is related to her size. Yes. We don't know why she needs to take breaks. Fucking pain for some reason, you know what I mean? Like, it might have nothing it might it might not have anything to do with her weight. Yeah. It's the other is the other piece of it. Or maybe she just needs to take breaks to not be around the mother in law. I mean, that would make

Vinny Welsby 18:01

God Yeah, and honestly, shopping is fucking tiring. I went to the mall. on Boxing Day. I know what was wrong with me because I am wanting to get this the lush sale. If anyone doesn't know lush has a sale on Boxing Day. I never knew about this. I got some bugs in amazing lush stuff for half price anyway, and I go to Bath and Bodyworks but I was tired. I was sweating. I sat down I had to go and get a water because like, it's like a sport. And so if I was doing that all day, I'd be doing exactly what the Doren law allegedly is doing. Having just being a normal human having an animal of arrest, you know, taking a break, because I have a human body and I'm sure people in smaller bodies will be doing the same. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 18:44

100% Yeah, for some. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 18:47

So our conclusion is what my conclusion is. Mother in law is the asshole

Unknown Speaker 18:54

100% Beth call us We got your back. Yes.

Vinny Welsby 18:57

Oh my goodness. Imagine if that was listening to the show. How amazing. So that was all stamp. Asshole. Okay, story 2am I the asshole for putting my nine year old on a diet and quote, emotionally damaging her. So, first reaction just from that summer would you recognize

Unknown Speaker 19:20

Yeah, yes.

Vinny Welsby 19:23

Obviously, ob V of you're really so Okay, so the story at x meaning x partner 32 female, they say like the ages and stuff. Sometimes they use the word female. I don't like it. But anyway, X 32 female so this person's x and I 34 Male have a nine year old daughter. M is the codename we're going to call them. We broke up when M was five and I moved away. I would see em in breaks and speak on the phone. So I was involved as I could be Last year, I moved back I now have her alternative weeks alternate weeks. I had noticed em starting to put on weight. She's not Oh word but seeing her in person I've noticed she has a belly, which hangs over her waistband. And she wears clothes older than what she is despite only being nine so the kids night now. I spoke to x and she got defensive saying that M eight what she eats. X is skinny and healthy, and has a sport she goes to twice a week. I asked her asked her about portion sizes and other exercises twice a week for 90 minutes isn't that much. I was trying to stay friendly, but x shut me down. I know weight gets harder to lose the older you get. So I decided to keep a close eye and do what I could on her weeks with me. I did not put her on a crash diet. But I did start using portion control plates and packing lean lunches instead of her instead of letting her by her food. Carrot Sticks yogurt flavored steamed chicken breast etc. and complained at first but then seemed fine with this. I also took her to the gym with me four times a week. My gym have my gym has parents and child classes. So the kid is doing now six times a week exercise. The only thing I said to him about it is that we were working to set her up for a future being physically fit and mindful of what she eats. So last week, a kid is having a birthday party and the parents are taking a small group to the movies and after a sleepover. The parents asked me what everyone send their kid asked me that everyone send their kid with their own snack, and then the parents would buy popcorn on top to share. I'm trying to show my kid that snacks can be healthy. So I sent her with a bag of veggie sticks and hummus. She she made a little fuss about not getting candy but seemed fine. I dropped her off and X was going to pick her up next day X Tex I had over an X isn't happy M is upset and won't look at me. Apparently when they were all sat waiting for the movie kids starting comparing snacks and told the other kids they were going to get fat and unhealthy because their parents gave them those snacks. She said that that she had to eat the veggie so she could lose weight. And she wasn't allowed any popcorn. I never said this. Then at the house after they after they ordered pizza for the kids. M refused to eat saying she was going to get fat. The parents called X and she came and got her and was crying saying that she was scared if she ate anything bad. She'd put on weight and everyone would hate her. She told x about our diet and gym. I hadn't because it was my weeks and why should I divulge all our plants? X rounded saying m always came home tired and refusing to eat. She blamed me for giving em a complex when she was healthy, inactive. I said if she was healthy, she wouldn't have a belly and be bigger than other girls. I said that at least I cared about what the girl puts in her mouth. And she said m was happier before I moved back. Now x is telling me that she won't send her back to me if I don't stop quote emotionally damaging her. So am I the asshole?

Unknown Speaker 23:24

Yes, this is a really heartbreaking story.

Vinny Welsby 23:27

I know. That poor that poor baby. That poor nine year old, why didn't Why do you think he's an asshole? Apart from obvious reasons? Because

Speaker 1 23:37

he's giving her an eating disorder. Pricing from daddy. Yeah, I mean, I think you probably see this too. But like, there's, I would say, you know, the vast majority of the clients that, that come to work with me had experiences like this. And, you know, 40 years later, they're still struggling with the same thing because of an incident that happened like this when they were in these younger years where kids are supposed to gain weight. Little girls are supposed to gain weight and even if they even if it was more than maybe what they're supposed to gain with puberty like it doesn't there's no reason that anyone should ever treat their kid like this.

Vinny Welsby 24:22

Yeah, it's so true. It's like the origin story for like villains, right is is something terrible happened to them, or heroes. And I feel like with with most people who and especially with most fat people, their origin story is parent shamed them and actually I was at I was at Fat con, which is a conference for fat people in Seattle this weekend and I was on a panel I said, hands up if you have a similar story to mine and I was saying how my my parents fat shamed me A as a kid, and everyone's hand went up apart from one person, I'm sure that one person didn't hear me or something, you know, right or maybe not. But you know, it's a universal experience of, of many, many people who end up having eating disorders or who have a fat body. Hmm, yeah. And

Speaker 1 25:19

I remember being that age and I remember like, this girl in my class really being bullied for her body. And my brother used to really bully me for my body. And I remember like, how much of an impact that had and really implanted this like hatred towards and shame of my own of my own body, you know, and fear around it and fear around it being scrutinized and and so I just think that like, it's, it's really, really sad because the seed has already been planted for this poor girl.

Vinny Welsby 25:56

Yeah. And what do you think about the mum saying she's not going to let the kid around? Unless he stops? What did you say emotionally damaging her? Yeah, good. Yeah. I'm like, fuck yeah. For that, Mum. Thank you. Thank God, that kid has the mum.

Speaker 1 26:15

Yeah. Yeah, I was actually happy to see the comments on this. And yeah, of the mum and you know, telling the guy that he was an asshole. Like the majority of comments. Were like you're giving her an eating disorder? Yeah,

Vinny Welsby 26:30

yeah. So the verdict on that one was asshole, asshole. Sorry. And the top comment was, man, your daughter is nine. She's a little chubby for what you've said. And she was crying because she was scared if she ate anything for Christ's sake, you're the asshole. And if you fuck your daughter, and you are fucking your daughter's life, what the actual hell do you think that you're doing? Someone then edit. Some of you guys got to be kidding. There's no info about the child being unhealthy. There is no info about medical reasons to get her to lose weight. There is only the original post of disliking the way the daughter looks because she has a quote, belly. Making a nine year old cry and fear of eating is not okay. And will never be okay. And saying, Oh, you're just thinking about what's best for her is bullshit. This is abusive. This is how body complexes are born.

Speaker 1 27:26

Yeah, the other part of that's terrible is now this little girl's viewing anti fatness to her friends to

Vinny Welsby 27:31

Yes. And that could be the thing that starts their journey with an eating disorder, disordered eating body image stuff would be like, Oh, that one time that M came and we had popcorn and I felt really ashamed.

Speaker 1 27:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, everyone needs to read the book fat talk if you're a parent, leaving this guy. Smith. Yeah. And she talks a lot about puberty and how kids are going through puberty, puberty at earlier ages, and how it's there. It's normal for a girl to gain 40 to 50 pounds during puberty. And so that's a lot. That's often the time when parents start to freak out is when they see that rapid body change. And so people need to understand that that's like normal and healthy and part of proper development. And not something to be feared. And even if the kid was unhealthy, or was gaining more weight to this behavior is still just as much coming from an asshole. Yeah, yeah. If I'm saying that, right. You know,

Vinny Welsby 28:39

what I noticed in the comments was people saying, but she's not actually unhealthy. Or a pediatrician hasn't told you to put her on a diet or, you know, and I feel like if he had said in the in the question, she's definitely fat, like she has, she's fat. I think those comments would be different.

Unknown Speaker 29:05

I think you're right.

Vinny Welsby 29:08

Because he said, Oh, she's got a little belly. And so people are like, well, that's okay, because she's not fat, fat. But if it was like, Oh, she's like, I don't know, whatever way you could describe it, then people would be like, you're probably doing the right thing because the child's gonna grow up and end up being like, no fat, fat, fat. Yep,

Speaker 1 29:29

I think I think you're probably right, especially given the people who were commenting on the previous story and how anti fat they were. So yeah,

Vinny Welsby 29:38

there's a cognitive dissonance isn't there? It's like, people are really like, this is unacceptable. But when it comes to someone who is an adult, or who is bigger than it's all of a sudden, this is definitely acceptable. I'm like, right. Why? I don't understand. But it's yeah, yes. Problem is I want to protect kids. But let's do it for adults too. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 30:04

Exactly. And it comes back to the same point. It's like if if, you know, if the person was disabled, or if they were, you know, like a particular age like they would it would be, it would be considered it. You know, you'd be considered an asshole for treating them that way. But yeah, yeah. Because they're fat that people are like, oh, yeah, no, you can tell them that. Yeah. Yeah,

Vinny Welsby 30:36

so are our verdict. My verdict is double asshole. Not that's not that's even a thing. What's your verdict?

Speaker 1 30:43

Yeah, this guy is a real, real asshole. Like, it makes me really upset actually, because I feel so bad for this kid, just because that damage cannot be undone. Like that. That's, that has now you know, put her on that trajectory. And hopefully her mom can help her get off of it. But I don't know, once once you start on that, and then reinforce it through behaviors. It's like it's a slippery slope. The kids do

Vinny Welsby 31:13

it. Yeah. And this post was actually from four years ago. And I, a lot of times people come back and they'll tell us an update, but this guy hasn't told us an update. So probably in 20 years time, they'll be talking to a therapist being like my dad, fuck me up. And, you know, this is what happened. And as well, because, you know, even though the dad's an asshole, that kid probably loves their dad. And so, those words are gonna hold such a big, big weight on that kid's psyche and mind.

Speaker 1 31:49

Oh, yeah, it's gonna tie into how they perceive themselves as being lovable or not. You or not, and it's like, it's a whole it's a whole big piece of baggage. She's just given her.

Vinny Welsby 31:59

Yeah, great parenting Papaw just die. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so next story. Am I the asshole for embarrassing my friends? Oh, word, boyfriend by making him sit on a chair different from everyone else's at dinner. See, what's your initial reaction? Um,

Speaker 1 32:31

I feel like when I read the headline, I was like, I need to hear I need to hear the context of the situation. Because on one hand, it's like, no, but what's the what's the context?

Vinny Welsby 32:44

Yeah, me too. Apart from there was two red flags for me. One using the O word and also making him sit on that chair. And I was like, yes, yeah, that's okay. So here it goes. This happened a few weeks ago, I invited my friends to dinner at my house to celebrate moving into my new house. And my friend Katie asked if she could bring her new boyfriend Dale, so our friend group can finally meet him in person. I said yes, there are two things I have to point out. First, my dining table and chairs are wooden furniture that have been in our family for close to 100 years and have a lot of sentimental value to my family. They used to be at my sister's house, but she asked me if I can take them since her kids tend to jump on them during mealtime and she was scared the furniture might get damaged. I don't have kids and I just got a bigger house or I have space thus I happily took them second Dale is morbidly Oh word. Just fucking hate that phrase. Mobley Oh word. He and then she says how big shoot big he is. And with the measurements, he wouldn't be classed as morbidly Oh word he would be classed as a medium large fat. So just some context there. Given that my dining chairs are wooden and old, I didn't want to risk them not being able to hold Dale's weight, so I prepared a different sturdier chair for him to sit on. I've had a word people sit on my dining chairs before but none as a word as Dale. When Katie saw that I was asking Dale to sit in your chair different from everyone else's. She got livid and told me that I was embarrassing Dale, I was shocked that she would get upset like that in front of everyone. So I stammered an explanation about how my chairs are rolled, and I wasn't sure if they would hold. Katie said that I was being fat phobic, and said that she couldn't be friends with a person like me. They left immediately while the rest of my friends stayed long enough just to finish dinner. And then we called it a night early. Am I the asshole? Like

Speaker 1 34:44

yes and no. Yes and no. What do you think?

Vinny Welsby 34:52

Yes or no? It sounds Yeah, I like to go

Unknown Speaker 34:59

no Go first.

Vinny Welsby 35:01

It sounds like, again, I think we've probably got bits of information missing. What was she saying to Dell when she made him sit on the chair? Obviously, this person has got tons of Antifa attitudes, because the way that she's talking about Dell like, who's huge, I've never had anyone as as fat as down in my house and oh my god, he's just gonna, you know, destroy the place. And like that that attitude is really unkind. But she did think about, not Dale's comfort, the fact that she didn't want her furniture broken and found him an alternative seat. So that was, like, good, good that she was trying to think of something. But then Katie, the girlfriend got livid and told me that I was embarrassing Dell that's probably going to embarrass Dale, like, you know, that I feel like that probably made it into a situation. So the fact that she left and said, I don't want to be friends with you, because you're fat phobic makes me think we're missing some information. Because just offering a chair is not fat phobic. Yeah, I

Speaker 1 36:10

also think like what is standing out to me now having heard you read this, to me, again, is the fact that is the poster. I don't know the gender of the poster. Not that it matters. But the whoever like posted this. That doesn't say they're more concerned about the chairs than like, having like comfortable seating for everybody. You know what I mean? Like, it was written in the context of like, you know what, like, Dale's coming over, and he's bigger. And I know that the, the seating I have isn't going to support so I wanted to bring in a chair that would be comfortable, more comfortable and supportive. Like that, to me would read a lot differently. But the it's really coming from an angle of like, these chairs have been in my family for 100 years, and I don't want to break. You know what I mean? There's, there's just, it's in, like, the framing of it still comes from, like, an anti-fat place, you know. But I do think it's good to think about seating and like people's comfort. And perhaps that could have been a conversation that would have been had like before they got there, would you how would you think that's the what what do you think is the best way to approach that?

Vinny Welsby 37:28

If I was the op op stands for original poster? If I was the OP, I might have quietly brought Dale, you know, when no one else was like listening and just be like, Oh, Dale, by the way, I've got this rickety as furniture and and so I found a chair that is I think might be might might work for you. Let me know what you think. Is that okay with you? Or, or I might say to everyone, oh, hey, everyone, these these, these chairs are like 100 years old. And so I found some other chairs here if you don't feel comfortable in these raggedy ass chairs, and just made it for everyone to choose if they want to risk breaking 100 year old chairs because I think most people were like, well, I don't want to sit on your fucking antique chairs. I don't want to break them because you love them more than you love me as a friend. So I'll just sit on the floor or whatever, you know. So there's ways that you can do that with more like kindness and like, thinking about the way that you asked me about chairs, like you just say when we sit down is that chair, okay? And like it's not a big deal. But imagine if you said to me say we're in a restaurant and we've got a new friend come in. And you said is that chair, okay? And then the other friend was like, Oh my God, you're embarrassing Vinnie by asking them is the chair. Okay? You're fat phobic for asking. vinius a chair. Okay. And we'd both be like, you're the one making the scene.

Speaker 1 39:01

Well, exactly, right. Like if we treat bodies as something to be ashamed of, then we're just perpetuating anti fatness but it like depends, right? Because it's like, Dale obviously knows he's fat like, yeah. But he might not be like fat positive. Right. So it was conversations that you want to have like more discreetly because you don't know how he feels about it. Whereas with you like, I know you're comfortable with? Yeah, like your fatness. So yeah, I don't you know, it's like for me to be like, Hey, are you okay with that chair? Yeah, it's a conversation I you know, you'd have we would have Yeah, exactly.

Vinny Welsby 39:39

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I know this person just sounds like a little bit of a dick. So you know the fact that that the friend said, I don't want to be friends with you because you're fat phobic. I mean, she is fat phobic. I'm guessing it's a shitty who knows. The Opie is fat phobic. And I bet you their own anti fat bias has been slipping out in other ways. And this was probably the final straw for Katie. And she's protecting Dale. But maybe she did. Yeah. And

Speaker 1 40:10

I think the way that she's framing it up is like, Oh, I just I was I didn't want to miss it on the chair and break it. But really, I think there's something else going on there. So yeah, it's interesting, because I read it and think that the poster the original puppy OP is a man. Oh, who interesting. Isn't that weird? How my brain goes to?

Vinny Welsby 40:29

Yeah, must be. I don't know. Yeah, that's funny. And what was there was something else I was gonna say about this, but it's escaped, escaped from my head. So I can't remember, but I'm sure it'll come back. So the verdict people said, what do we think some other people said? Because it's an adult that they're talking about? Who's

Speaker 1 40:53

that feel like they're gonna they're gonna say, they're not an asshole. Yes,

Vinny Welsby 40:57

that's what people said. Not a not an asshole. The top comment says, not not the asshole. Ironically enough, his girlfriend definitely made it worse by making a big stink of it. It's not like it's a mystery to anyone that Dale is morbidly Oh, word. There's nothing fat phobic about that. Someone else said my clock partner is fat. And he and I work as a team to always ensure that he has a sturdy chair. He'd be so embarrassed if he sat in a chair and it broke under him. Literally his worst nightmare, not the asshole. Yeah. And that is it like it literally those like I remember a chair, a bench breaking underneath me. And it's such a core memory because the bench broke. It was rotten wood. And everyone was just there just on the floor laughing at me. And like if that happened to me now, I'd be fucking laughing. But at the time, it was like, so shameful and traumatizing and being like, that was kind of like the final straw. Right? Right. That's it. I need to get in because I'm broken furniture over here. But the thing is, a lot of furniture isn't made for human bodies. Yeah, so you can understand. Kate, you wanting to protect Dale?

Speaker 1 42:18

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And it would have been awkward if he didn't have another chair to sit on as well. So it was kind of a bad situation overall.

Vinny Welsby 42:29

i Oh, here's the thing I was gonna say is if you are having someone over to your house, and so she said Dale can come it wasn't a surprise that Dale was there. And she already knew that Dale had a bigger body. Imagine inviting someone over to your house who you like come over for dinner. And you know that they're a vegan, and then you make dinner and you're like, I've got beef tips like you made or beef, whatever they were called. And nothing else. You'd be the dickhead because you invite that person. And you might say I hate vegans, like fuck them, not agree with them. But then you didn't provide any food, any accommodation for that person. Like one time my dad my dad was a dickhead her my sister had a boyfriend and he was vegetarian. And so he had him he was around for dinner. I don't know where this was, I think this was Christmas dinner and my dad just pulled out a jar of sauerkraut and slammed it on the table and said that's your dinner to my sister's then boyfriend to say like, being really rude and been like, I've thought of you and you can just eat some cabbage or whatever sauerkraut is, I think it's cabbage. Like, it's that type of thing of, you know, aloe is not like this, you know if you're going to invite someone at least think a little bit of about accommodating them. But she did. She did because she got a chair. So she did but I think she

Unknown Speaker 43:54

was more concerned about the chairs. Like

Vinny Welsby 43:58

such a big house she she put the chairs in some other room and get some proper furniture not some fucking shit. Yeah. 100 year old rickety. Yes, things.

Speaker 1 44:05

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Vinny Welsby 44:08

So my final verdict is asshole ish. Like, oh is

Unknown Speaker 44:17

like, like soft launch asshole.

Vinny Welsby 44:21

Asshole with an asterix of like, but it's complicated. Yeah. The thing is, like most people I always think you know, most people in life are not trying to be assholes. They're trying to be be okay rather know. So, Okay, you ready for the last one? Yeah. Could be the last one. We could do more if you want whatever you want. This will be the last one. Okay, so would I be the asshole for imposing a diet on my wife? If she wants to travel with me, okay, so initial reaction, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 45:07

Oh my god. This poor woman. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 45:13

Okay, story is friends have invited me to Japan to teach ESL English second language. And I'm going to apply through the proper channels this upcoming autumn, I meet any, in fact exceed the qualification. So I'm not worried about that. But I know Japan has a specific culture that looks down upon, oh word people I've already seen started to lose weight, and this person has lost some weight. They mentioned how much in preparation because I want to be accepted within what that what their society desires. My wife can come with me, she can apply for a specific specific visa to live with their spouse while they work. I want her to come with me. She wants to come with me. But I want her to lose weight with me. And I'm not sure if I'd be the asshole for imposing a diet if she's to come with me to give an idea and that he talks about his weight. So he's a small fat person, not really No, I don't think he's fat. And she would be a small fat, maybe medium fat person, if I want to tell her if she can get to. And then he mentioned some weight, which is a lot lower. If she gets to this weight by Christmas. I'll let her go with me. I have some rare control of the situation because I need to sign off on paperwork to allow her to declare me as a spouse in the application. So would I be the asshole?

Speaker 1 46:46

What do you think the fuck? Yes.

Vinny Welsby 46:52

This guy, I swear. The fact he's got this, the control thing at the end, I have this rare control where I can lord over my wife that she can come and be with me her husband, unless she decides to become a thin person. I'm like, What is wrong with people?

Speaker 1 47:19

I want to say I'm shocked. But I know I'm not because I know this happens. But like why are you even married?

Vinny Welsby 47:28

Yeah, yeah. And actually one of the first comments one of the top comments says let's read it. Am I the only one that gets a vibe that he actually doesn't want her to come? Because he wants to see if he can pick himself up a hot new wife. Yeah, no shit. Yeah, yeah. The fact that he's like, I want to adhere with a Japan's society desires. It's like, why? What? Why? Because you're gonna pick up people. Yeah. Like, who were you?

Speaker 1 48:03

I think I think he doesn't. I think this. Like, this makes him even more of an asshole. But I think he doesn't want to be made to feel ashamed for having a bigger wife.

Vinny Welsby 48:12

Oh, yeah. I hadn't thought about it like that.

Speaker 1 48:18

It's his only then. Like, he doesn't want to have to wrestle with that. So he's like, if I can have a socially acceptable size wife then. Yeah. Oh,

Vinny Welsby 48:35

and that is the like the deep dark fear of so many people that their spouse is secretly kind of ashamed of them or doesn't want to be with them. And and I know, that was my experience I've shared on the show before that, for those who listening summer show is that my last long term boyfriend, we've split up like, I don't know, six years ago, we were together for six years. And he confessed to me that he was less attracted to me because I had put on phenomenal amount of weight. And it was like my deepest, darkest fears were coming true. And at that moment, I vow to him that I would become good and get on a diet and become smaller again. I was always fat when we were dating so and I'd put on like hardly any weight. So like, fuck this guy. But now Now I'm out of it. And I'm like, wow, he was really struggling with anti fatness and his own self esteem. And, and when we split up, I said to him, What was that all about? And I was kind of like getting curious, asking questions. And basically what he said was that when we go to work functions, I want people to be jealous of me. I have this kind of trophy partner, you know, I want it. It's like, unreal, you know, not human version of a person in order to make me feel better about my self esteem. And I was just like, you know, thanks for that. Thanks. You know, I, you know, I understand your motivations. It's really

Speaker 1 50:19

common, unfortunately. Yeah. You know, and there's a lot of people out there that will love you unconditionally. And then there's a lot of people out there that only want a thinner person. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 50:33

And I've done whole podcast episodes on this. And so if this is like, if you're, if you're feeling really triggered by this, and you're like, Oh, my God, why is my spouse like this guy and thinking that I should be thinner, then I'll link to some Instagram posts or something in the show notes to give us as a resource. But a lot of times, to all the times if you use do struggle or self esteem, your partner says, I'm attracted to you, we just have to believe that they do. Because a lot of times they are because fat people are fucking a gorgeous, sexy, wonderful humans. And a lot of people are attracted to us.

Speaker 1 51:12

Well, and physical attraction can be is, is influenced by our environment, right? Like we're, we're conditioned to find certain bodies physically attractive because of the way that they've been presented to us. And that's something that we can change, like, we can change our perception of bodies and what we find attractive. And so if someone is struggling with that, like if they're in a relationship, and they're, you know, their partner's body has changed. And they're struggling with attraction, if that's something that can be changed, that's not set in stone, but the person has to be willing to face their anti fatness in order to make that change. And so, you know, assuming that there's still like that emotional connection there between the two people. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 52:03

And that's the thing is, like, a lot of times we if we do hear, like, I'm not attracted to you, because of your fatness, we hear that's a me problem. And therefore I need to change versus really, that's a problem for them to tackle that they're having this bias dictate their level of love or care or attraction to the person that they own a relationship with. So for my ex, that was a him problem. Like, you saw your shit out. And, you know, he ended up going and dating another fat person after me so clearly, he fucking likes a fat ease. Yeah, I don't know if I deal with it. You like five A's? So deal with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, mine was 60s FOB Dan with that. Yeah,

Speaker 1 53:00

this this guy, this woman like they were better off not together, in my opinion, because if he like is thinking this is a good idea, like to the extent that he went and posted it on a message board. Like,

Vinny Welsby 53:16

wow, this person did delete the post, but I managed to find the original text. So I think that person was like, Oh, I fucked up. Because the verdict? Well, actually, no, we don't know the verdict, but because he deleted the post, but we could still see the comments. The comments were that he's an asshole.

Speaker 1 53:39

Okay, well, that's positive. Yeah. That's one it's so weird how sometimes people are so like, I am almost surprised given how anti fat everybody was on the other posts. So

Vinny Welsby 53:52

well, let me let me double check. I'm doubting myself now.

Speaker 1 53:59

Maybe the other comments, maybe because their perception is like I feel like it was almost like because in the other situation like with the daughter in law, people it was like concern for her well being and health. Yes,

Unknown Speaker 54:11

this was like strictly about like attraction or achieving a certain size. I don't know.

Vinny Welsby 54:23

Yeah, oh, someone said, Watch her drop. x pounds instantly the amount of pounds that he what he weighs? Yeah, she's gonna drop him and go off to Japan or whatever. Yeah, yeah, everyone. Everyone is saying pretty much you're the asshole. And then some people are saying there's fat people in Japan and then someone says there definitely is a culture of fat phobia. That's more of a in Japan. And that's, that's absolutely true. I know what of my, someone I used to know who lived in Japan. They were from America and she she wasn't fat. She was maybe what people would say mid size, you know, some not thin, thin, thin, but she wasn't fat. And she couldn't find clothes anywhere and people. She had to import them basically the

Speaker 1 55:21

exact same thing. Yeah. Make overt comments like they'll just Yeah, mental in your body. Yeah, it's just a different culture.

Vinny Welsby 55:31

So, yeah, so there's those other things as well to consider of like, maybe he was just worried about what the people would say about his wife, and he was worried that she would be sad. I don't don't think

Speaker 1 55:42

I think he's more worried about his own perception is that

Vinny Welsby 55:47

I mean, I try to be generous in spirit towards this guy. Yeah, I'm

Speaker 1 55:50

not even giving him any. I'm not giving him any leeway there. I feel like it was entirely about what are people gonna think of me if I have a bigger wife?

Vinny Welsby 55:58

Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully he's this his wife has dropped X amount of pounds, which is His body weight from her life, because he sounds like a ding dong. Yeah, and hopefully you got food

Unknown Speaker 56:09

poisoning on the plane or something.

Vinny Welsby 56:15

I hope that too. Did you hear about the did you hear about the person who shoot on a plane and the plane had to land because the shit was so bad? Was that my husband? No, I'm kidding. I was like, had explosive diarrhea or something and it was rolling down the aisles of the of the plane. Flying is just so awful. I know. I feel like that's the type of thing that would happen

Speaker 1 56:41

to me. We should have put a trigger warning before you said that. Well,

Vinny Welsby 56:45

that was shit stuff. Yeah. Cuz anyone was eating or

not eating now if they were eating. Thanks. Thanks, Vinny. I think people who listen to my podcasts are used to me talking about chips. That's one your people by the way. We have Vinnie Vinnie on they talk about shit and piss. disgusting, disgusting human.

Speaker 1 57:12

Come for the conversations around fat liberation, stay for the conversations around shit.

Vinny Welsby 57:19

Yeah. You know what? That's so funny. You mentioned that because when I was on the panel, we were talking about like, stupid ways that we were trying to get thin and I was like, oh, is anyone shit themselves? And then the panel house was like, you asked the audience four times as anyone shit themselves and eventually someone's like, yeah, I shit myself. And we were like, all laughing and I was like, wow, I'm really interested in shit. Like, this is like, I should put that on my hobby on my Tinder profile. Like talking about our friends. Yeah, you left yet you're well known shit lover, aren't you so

Unknown Speaker 57:59

positive

Vinny Welsby 58:04

would love it? If you put that on your Instagram bio.

Unknown Speaker 58:10

Probably got a little more followers than I have.

Vinny Welsby 58:11

Yeah, cuz you're gonna like what is this new movement? And you're like, I just shit everywhere. Just fucking shit on the street. I don't care. That would be just on it. Just Own the shit. Yes. Well, it's been fun to talk about the mid asshole. And both be on each other shows.

Speaker 1 58:31

Yeah, that was it was it was great. And I hope that people know that. You know? I don't know who like, what is the psyche behind someone who thinks I'm gonna post. I'm gonna ask people if I'm an awesome like, I would just never. Like I would almost want to sit down with someone and be like, Why did you post that on there? Like, why do you want random people on the internet to give you an opinion like that is

Vinny Welsby 58:56

because they want like, they want unbiased. So people in their life will be you know, like, if I came to you and I was like, I did this. And actually no, you probably would say, No, you're the asshole if I did do something asshole ish. But probably you would be more supportive of me if I did do something. dickish but then if I put something on the internet saying what a strangest thing. They they don't know anything about me. In the first place, right? Yeah. But

Unknown Speaker 59:25

that's why why would you want that feedback though? Like Yeah, cuz

Vinny Welsby 59:28

you know, because then you'd be like, Oh, God, I'm a terrible person. Yeah. No, because these people think they're in the right. They kind of know that they're in the right and they want other people to say because a lot of the time they get you're not the asshole apart from the people who were oblivious like these assholes we spoke about today. And they get like a delete that post. Because they're like, oh,

Speaker 1 59:52

I need to go and explore this thread further. I've never I had never even heard of that. So yeah, no, it's a good one. hours of entertainment. by myself, yeah, exactly

Vinny Welsby 1:00:02

right low on self esteem. Just go on the asana. Find all the muscles. I'm like, Wow, I'm not that much of a dickhead. Yeah yeah, that's okay bye

Episode 182 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Fat phobia during the holidays. 0:00

• Boundaries and dealing with difficult family members. 4:58

• Body shaming and setting boundaries in a fat-phobic family. 11:26

• Setting boundaries and respecting them. 17:00

• Overcoming past trauma and effective communication. 22:42

• Dealing with friends who promote diet culture and body shaming. 27:53

• Body image, diet culture, and eating disorders. 34:02

• Boundaries and responding to hurtful comments. 39:10

• Assertive responses to body shaming comments. 44:31

• Setting boundaries and communicating needs. 51:10

• Setting boundaries during holidays with fatphobic friends and family. 57:26

• Setting and maintaining healthy boundaries. 1:02:54

• Setting and maintaining healthy boundaries in relationships. 1:09:09

• Setting and enforcing boundaries in personal relationships. 1:13:29

• Setting boundaries and self-care. 1:19:48

• Setting boundaries with family members. 1:23:57

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 182: Dealing with fatphobic family during the holidays. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Hello, and welcome to this episode. So nice to see ya. How you doing? How's life? You good? I'm good, good. Good, good, good, good, good. My ring light is not working today because I have a multiple USB connector and that has broken as of yesterday. So I can't have my mic and ring light on at the same time. So if you watch on YouTube, you might be like very wise about lighting so bad. It's because I have just just a mechanic's light on me and the ring light. I don't know what the ring light does. But it's just you know, it seems like it's tiny, light source, but it just packs a punch. So if you're in the video recording world, a ring light, a ring light is better than a lamp or a normal light bulb. insider information for you. Oh, my goodness. Hey, have you noticed how the first time the podcast is becoming less frequent? And it's sometimes just one episode a month or once or twice a month? Well, the reason for that is because I am working to fund the podcasts. So we have Kofi KOF. I, which is kind of like Patreon, where you can donate to the podcast. And because I've been making the podcast for maybe four years now. We're at 192 episodes. And for that whole time, I've been paying to produce podcasts myself, which I worked out how much it was I've paid to write the vodcast. And I was like, Oh, God, oh, no, it was a lot. I can't remember what it was. But it was a lot anyway. And so I worked out kind of like bare minimum costs is to make four episodes of the podcast $680 a month. So that's why because our donations at Kofi is at just being able to fund one episode a month currently. So if you would like me to go back to doing two, three, even four episodes a month, and you enjoy the podcast, and you've listened to more than a couple of episodes, and you would like to fund fats content, then go to the go to my Kofi The link is in the show notes. We're currently at $290.39 subscribers to my Kofi a month. And so to get to two episodes a month is $340. So, if we can get to $340 so that's only another $45 That's only another nine people that's do $5 Is that nine people 24689 Yeah, like I have I just screwed up that mouth and someone's like, Vinny, it's seven wasn't my No way, another nine people to do $5 a month, or you can do more 1020 and you get perks for that you get cool, good shit, good, good stuff for that cup of tea with the perks are going to Kofi and I would have told you on kofi, you're going a slice of ice resource guide and other stuff. So $340 And we can do two episodes a month. So we close we close and we got there like a month for a month and then there's a catch 22 but less episodes that I make, the less often you're gonna hear the message to hey, if you want to donate on kofi and therefore people donate less and therefore I make less episodes so it's a real catch 22 And for most of the podcast I've been you know, funding it myself and so it's I don't I don't I don't know anyway, if you'd like this stuff I'll stop talking because I feel like I know a bit awkward saying give me money. Anyway,

Vinny Welsby 4:41

talking about fat phobic people during the holidays, maybe not just family but anyone you know, I know in a know in America in the US you have Thanksgiving, like a month before you just just had it when I'm recording it like a month before Christmas. But I as a British person who lives in Canada and Canada. We have Thanksgiving in October, I think because I don't celebrate it. It's not part of my cultural background to be bothered about Thanksgiving in any way I wouldn't because of colonialism. Anyway. Long story short, what I'm trying to say is I really don't think about gatherings until like, December time. And so I'm sorry for those of you have already had gatherings depending whatever your cultural background is. There's lots of gatherings and religious holidays and cultural holidays between November and January. So it's not just the North American Catholicism that's going on. There's also many other different holidays, for example, like Kwanzaa Did you know Kwanzaa is a week long celebration that goes from 26th of December to the first of January, so one week, culminating on the sixth day, which is the 31st of December, where they have a feast and Kwanzaa was first created in 1966 by a activist who I can't remember his name. Coringa brain Thank you. Something Kirinda in response to the Watts riots in the watts, riots was something riots that happened near La, where as a response of, to police brutality, and so Kirinda wanted to make a celebration where people who are black, specifically African American, could celebrate their, their culture and traditions and move away from what Ranga saw as the white holiday of Christmas. And you will see, Kwanzaa celebrated like different symbols. The main one that you might recognize is a seven candles together, three red, three green and one black. And there's gift giving, and there's different celebrations every day. Anyway, it's just learning about Kwanzaa information download. Anyway. So if you're like, if you're about to celebrate Kwanzaa, and you've got some dickhead, fat phobic family, because we know those fat bugs are everywhere, right? And you're like, Oh my God, what do I need? What can I do? Or any time of the year actually dealing with people who you might not see often or you might have relationships where it's a little bit more difficult than your friends? Or your partner you might have be able to have more frank discussions with those. So I asked people on the Instagrams tell me if you've got any questions if you want to share in experiences going so I'm going to share those I'm gonna be talking about boundaries I'm going to be talking about when people say that you're too sensitive and Stop overreacting all I said that was you. All I said was that you are disgusting, why you're offended by it. You're so funny. And I did for word tracks what you can say different levels of word tracks in regards to how you might escalated how you might act on a boundary Hard and Soft boundaries sign someone doesn't respect your boundaries. Oh, somebody's got stuff to do. We have staff and boundaries, boundaries feel really close to my heart, because I don't know about you. But for most of my life, I have been a timid, a timid people pleaser. And there's no way in the world I would be saying, oh, excuse me, can you stop saying that to a family member especially like, you know, when an aunt or uncle or you know, my dad or something? No, I will just leave and then slag them off behind the back, you know, like a normal person. But, annoyingly, because I've been, I've been in therapy for so many years, I've tried to be a better person barring and trying to be better with my communication and have better relationships. So I no doubt on boundaries and because unfortunately, if you have marginalized identities, you will have to probably do this work, which is not fair. You know, that you're the one who has to do a lot of the work. I talked with, I talk with someone with one of my friends the other day. Madison and you know, talking about how we feel like the black sheep sometimes in relationship dynamics as in like, the one doing the work and sometimes other people are not doing doing the work and it can feel really isolating and make you feel like is there something wrong with me? Like, Am I overreacting? Am I too much? Am I too demanding or whatever? Anyway, so we'll talk about that today. Okay, so your experiences, but a couple of quick comments, parents commenting to me, you're going to eat all that. Any changes to my body appearance? They comment on. Party says no one says anything to me but they do to my son. It pisses me off and he's a grown man. And I said to Patty, oh, my goodness, that's awful. What types of things would they say? And they say to Pattison, boy you're getting big asking if he's still exercising. He was a high school athlete. You know, we just want you to be healthy bull crap essentially. I'm learning to love my size but I'm not sure he's in that headspace people can be awful, especially family. Yeah, yes. Why is it family? Why is it family? It's I find that strange. I felt like maybe they feel like they have the right to do it. And they you know if you've had that dynamic younger with your you know a sibling and they're like, Oh, you're you're fat or whatever. Then they probably feel like it's okay as an adult to maybe what they view as tease you like it's in joke or something. Or that they have a right because their family and they just quote worried about you? I don't know. Yeah, family do seem to be the most. When I talk to people. When I talk to my clients when I do one on one coaching. It almost is the family that's the biggest problem. There's a Reddit thread here, which is Reddit plus size. Careful on Reddit because Reddit fat phobic community is is alive and kicking. But there are some fat positive communities on Reddit anyway, this person made a post kind of just a maybe a little bit more of a rant. fat phobic family and the holidays. I have been waiting wanting to post this for a while I have been in a larger body all my life and have realized in the last year just how fat phobic my aunt's are. The real gag is they are and have always been larger than I am. I am sort of a black sheep because I'm the only one of the cousins as my cousins and I call us who doesn't follow the status quo and and abide by what they think I should do with my life. Yeah, black sheep thing again, but in the last year, I underhanded the underhanded comments have been have intensified with my sister's weight loss. If I wear something quote scandalous one of my aunts were to wear I'm wearing a revealing when revealing clothing. I'm asked if I would feel more comfortable wearing leggings under a dress or a tank top to cover my chest. When my sister does it. It's all of the praise in the world to be clear. I look good as fuck and everything I put on baby in capital letters. Yes, my dad says that they are jelly of my self confidence. So thanks Dad. One of my cousins notices it to his husband lost 40 pounds. And you think this man was a God by the way they treat him now. My sister sees it too. Now we cousins have noticed a lot of their bullshit and stay away from them a lot. I'm really debating on if I want to go to Thanksgiving dinner to see the rest of my family who doesn't treat me that way and put up with my aunts I have several and their bullshit. I've warned my mum the next one who tries me I will not hold back and that I have have only kept my true feelings to myself. Out of respect for her. And love I have for my cousins. She told me to beat my peace. I hope I don't have to because they cannot handle what they dish out. So this was on posted nine days ago just before this Thanksgiving. And people are saying I'm sorry. And you know, perhaps you can say this and the poster said, Oh, I've kept my mouth shut for long enough. I'm not in short supply of responses. I just have to try and tone it down. So it sounds like this person's like, up to their limits. And just being like is going to be like fuck a one person says don't go Oh, no one person says go don't give up on the rescue family because of a couple of assholes who can't get their mouth shut. My only suggestion would be at the first comment. Give them one warning to knock it off with the remarks then if they continue, and they will let them have it. You don't have to do this of course but at least they can walk they can't whine when no one said it wasn't appropriate. Please come back to back on the invent never will tongue lashing that you give them. And this the OP said LM Anna lm a oh it's been brewing for 30 for some 30 something years. Yes.

Someone else commented if you want to save energy, just say wow. In response to that comments increase the volume of the WoW as needed. That makes me think of Oh Who is that one? That Back to guy. And he says, Oh, wow, I need to google it now. Oh, wow. Oh, it's Owen Wilson. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's that. So that's a technique that is a technique. Okay, so we got some questions. How do I handle multiple people calling me dramatic ganging up on me when I set boundaries? So this person is like, Oh, give me more. Tell me more. What do they say? It's exactly. So this person said, usually I get passive aggressive comments on my body such as, What was the last time you worked out? That nothing passive. Aggressive grows? When's the last time you worked out? Or because I'm getting married? Soon? I've had comments like, Oh, you better watch, watch out so you can still fit in your wedding dress, my eye roll in my eyes, go back roll back in my head any further. That'd be like slot machine when you win the jackpot. Recently, my boundaries have been very direct, like, Please don't talk about my body. Or I'll appreciate it. If you didn't ask me those questions. The responses I usually get are about how dramatic I am. For context. I'm the only person in my family who sets boundaries and calls out anything problematic. So they're usually lumping those comments about boundaries in with others, I've set nonrelated to fat phobia as well. Black Sheep thing, I will usually get a couple of family members all talking directly to me defending their comments on my body and telling me that I am quote, taking them the wrong way. Or, quote, mean no harm, they mean no harm. And then if I don't back down on my boundary, they will become angry as if I'm calling them a bad person. Oh, wow. This is Oh, this is so difficult, right? Anything is okay. So boundaries aren't about controlling how other people behave. It's a guideline to help you understand how you should behave, to feel good, right? You make a request. These people have clearly not only have they denied your request, but they are attacking you for having a very simple request. Don't talk about my body. What is it? You're saying? Please don't talk about my body. I mean, yeah, it's not you're like you're saying, hey, please, can you just stop breathing? You know, it's a very reasonable request. And even the most people who don't get, you know, body liberation would be like, Yeah, we should, we should probably stop talking about bodies, like it's not far left field, you know, or right field or whatever, whatever the saying is. So, being too sensitive to boundaries, you know, I like a good analogy. So I've come up with an analogy of what I think that this is kind of like so let's imagine that you have a bunch of donkeys. Christmas donkeys. Oh, like Dominic the donkey. You know that song? Ching Ching Hee Ha he hides dumb and Nick the donkey touching anything. He ha Hee ha the Italian Christmas donkey. La la la, la la la la la, la La, la, la la la la la. Take him take him dub them? That's a real good, that is a banger? That is a Christmas banger. Anyway, so you've got Dominic the donkey, the Christmas donkey in your field. And some of Dominic's pals. All right. So you have a field. It's an open field. Dominic and his pals. The donkeys hanging out there just having a good donkey life. Right. People in the area, come into the field uninvited. And start writing Dominic stealing Dominic's friends, pestering them, you know when you're and they stick their fingers in their mouth, and they put grass up their nose, just really just annoying them. So one day you put up an electric fence, because you're like Dominic deserves to live in peace. All right. People come to the field. There notice a electric fence. They get zapped. And they are like, wow. Like, what's his face? Owen Wilson. Wow. So Owen Wilson comes to the field and says, Wow, that's an overreaction. All I'm doing is coming in given Dominic some cases and you've got no electric fence and I just got zapped by it. So what they didn't see is the multiple times that you came to them and said, hey, you know what Dominic doesn't like it when you pull his ears and jump on his back. And his friends don't like it either. And, you know, also people have taken him taking his friends back to their house. And you know, and they're like, Ah, whatever. We're going to do what we want. And then you put up signs, you said, Hey, don't pull Dominic's ears, leave them alone. And they ignored the signs. And the only the first time that they really heard you, was when you put the electric fence. Because the other time, so just didn't think that you were serious. And so their interaction with the electric fence to them seems shocking, because it is they it's shocked them literally. And it seems like what the hell, I'm just having night of the donkeys all of a sudden, they've said, You can't touch the donkeys. And I'm just like what, but that's not your experience or Dominic's experience, right. And so it is to be expected that they are going to have a oh my god, you're so sensitive, because there's been a breakdown in communication of understanding each other. Eventually, you know, the people will come to the field, they'll stay behind the fence, because it's electrified, the donkeys will be happy. And then you'll probably you know, they'll learn that they can't go into the field, that's just not you know, they're gonna get electrocuted. Eventually, one day, you might decide to put up a wooden fence. And because people have learned that that is the boundary to the field. You don't need that electric fence anymore. There's a wooden fence and they just respect it. They understand what it represents. So initially, the boundary will feel shocking. And that's to be expected. But then people will learn the rules of engaging with Dominic and his pals. Eventually, maybe one day, you might decide, I'm going to open up donkey tall so that people can come and give Dong give Dominic a little pat and give stroke his hair and braid his hair or whatever. And then you are overseeing the situation and make sure they're not, you know, yanking on his tail or whatever. Right? You might decide to do that or not. Or another scenario is that you pull up the electric fence, they get zapped, and they're like, Oh, my God, you're so unreasonable. And they come the next day with wire cutters and cut down that electric fence and just go into the field anyway and do what they want. That's the scenario that happens most of the time is that when people stay at a boundary, people are like, Oh, my God, that's You're overreacting. And they just overstep the boundary anyway. Or we feel guilty. And we say, I made a mistake. And you take down the electric fence. I'm being too sensitive. Because the people outside have convinced you. Is it so bad? That I put my finger up Dominic's bum? He doesn't mind it. It's just a finger. You know? And then you're like, Oh, Ah, I don't know. And when it's not about Dominic, and it's actually about us, it makes it even harder. Being like, wow, I should I should probably just accept that finger up the bum. will have my ears pulled. You know? In the obviously these these are analogies for words. The other side of this as well, is that learning about overstating harm. So let's imagine, you know, you put the electric fence up people, you know, breaking anyway, and you're like, Fuck this. And so you move you move your your farm and Dominic and his friends to somewhere else completely different. You see someone in your new field and they're walking up to Dominic, your reaction might be Get the fuck out of the field, leave Dominic alone, I can't believe you did that you are terrorizing me by being in this field. I'm you're breaking the law, I'm going to call the police. That might be your reaction, because of the terrible experiences that you have previously experienced. Right? You might immediately put up a fence. And so immediately, you know, saying, Oh, that person that has come into the field or might say if you immediately put up a fence even though no one's doing anything to Dominic. That could be like overstating harm.

And this could be a trauma response. Or it could be because previously you've not been heard and so you've had to shout now. So it's kind of like say if you cut your arm, you've got a really sore sensitive arm and someone brushes by you, and it really stings. And you snap and you're like how dare you you've really hurt me and they have really hurt you. But it wasn't necessarily them that caused the initial harm, even though that they have also contributed to the harm that you're feeling right now. So the state of harm might not be in line with the actions of the person, but as a result of your past trauma. So to be an effective communicator, we want to try and not overstate harm, or ascribe the full power of the harm that has happened just then to that one person when there's a background of harm. So, here's an example like real life example. There used to be I used to work at this, I used to work at this company, like, I used to have a job. And there was this one guy who worked in a kind of like an open office. And there was this one guy, he was just a fucking knob. He was a bell, and he was really mean, and he would say, cruel things to people all the time and make fun of them and just be really dominant around the office and just belittle people. Anyway, so he was doing this stuff to me, I was new. And I was my therapist. What should I do? My therapist? What should I do about this guy? You know, and why is it so triggering for me? Wow, it's so triggering for me, because I've had past experiences with an abusive relationship. My dad is, was a very domineering bully type person. And so after talking with my therapist, I decided that I would take this guy aside, and I said to him, Hey, can we just talk privately? When I said that he was like, Vinnie wants to talk to me in private. Maybe they want to get with me or something like that. I can't know what you said. But I was just like, You're such in my brain. You're such a fucking dickhead. Anyway. So when I went out the back, I said, Hey, listen, I just want to go, Is it okay? If I share a little bit about my history with you? And he says, Yeah, sure. And I said, Hey, I used to be in an abusive relationship. My dad was very domineering. And so sometimes when you say these things, because of my past past history, it can be a little bit more triggering for me than it might be for other people. So I'm wondering if you could avoid saying those types of things to me. And he was like, Oh, my goodness, yeah, I'm so sorry. You gave me a hug. And then, you know, then he never said anything like that to me ever again. He did to other people, though. He continued with other people. So say that that would mean taking that approach, after lots of guidance from my therapist, might have been more effective than say, one day. Me saying Jorda that's his name. If you know what company I used to work at. You don't tell him? Hey, you're the worst person that's ever lived. You're a piece of shit. I hate you what you're saying. What you're saying is the worst thing that's ever been said. It might not have been aligned with him, him saying, Oh, you're bad at your job. You know, but also recognizing sometimes that's just the art. That's our reaction. Right? We we I do it all the time saying overstating harm, you know, like maybe my colleagues said a decade is it really like always II like also a harm hurt person who's behaving this way? Lala, you know, so. And because I have spent a lot of my life traumatized, you know, living with PTSD. I have been triggered by a lot of things. That's just normal, right? And so if you do happen to react with the, you know, oh, really big reaction. That's just a normal, totally, totally normal way to react. Right. So don't beat yourself up about it. But I'm not saying that this person is overstating harm. I really don't think that they are at all right. Because if someone said to me, Oh, you better watch out so you can still put in your wedding dress. And then I said, Can you please not talk? I'd appreciate if you didn't talk about my body. That sounds absolutely reasonable. Right? Maybe overstating harm might be like if they said watch out so you can still fit in your wedding dress, you might say. And overstating harm is you've just ruined my wedding. You know? Maybe they have maybe they've done other stuff anyway. So if you feel like yeah, you know what I feel like this is harmful to me. And yes, I have a back historic back history of, of, you know, many people doing this and so it probably is a sore spot for me, but just because it's a sore spot doesn't mean that I should just ignore it. Right? Does that mean I should just shut up and just let people poke that sore spot? Because it's inappropriate because that will be a dick move. Imagine if you were like, Oh, hey, I've got a bruised arm and someone was like, oh, right here and I kept poking it. That bruise is never going to turn into a healed, you know, arm is always going to be bruised. And that is what is happening with our fat phobic family is that bruise cannot heal because they keep poking at it. We say don't and they say You're so sensitive and poke again. I'm gonna give you more more tactics for that stuff. Okay, so, someone says, I'm a bum bum bum. Next. Next question is Hi, Vinny. Thanks for your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Thank you. Thank you, given the festive season, and then the dreaded New Year resolutions that usually include weight loss and or fitness goals. How can I deal with friends who are doing the so called eight week fitness challenges? A friend of mine is doing one and all she posts now is before and after photos on social media and brags about her 20 I'm not gonna say what that is. Her weight loss, let alone all the diet talk of tight talk or things she won't eat now or constantly mentioning her dietician says she can eat certain foods only once in a while. That sounds like a shitty dietitian. I find it depressing and hurtful that she is obsessed now with weight loss. What would you suggest I do to shield myself self against this or have any comebacks when she when she she's talking about food dieting and losing weight? Whoa, Nelly, this is yeah, no, that sounds really difficult. You know what the first thing I would be doing is muting my friend, do not be afraid of that mute button, and answer on Instagram, as on social media. So you do not have to see those before and after posts. Because that stuff is difficult, right? And as well hearing like, oh my god, I can eat this and I can't eat that, you're gonna suck that stuff up. And the next time you pick up the thing that you know that you, she said that you're not meant to eat, you're going to be like, no one bad. And the next time you eat and the thing that you're meant to eat lots of then you're going to like, think a little bit better. Probably, that's how my brain works, you know, when I'm more vulnerable to that type of stuff. So protect yourself by not seeing it. Mute that friend, honestly, my Facebook page, I wonder, uh, my Facebook friends, say if I have 500 friends, I've probably muted like 350 of them. Like, really, I want to keep them as friends. Because sometimes you want to just look at them up, right and be like, I'm listening what this bus is up to now. But you don't want to see their daily thoughts, because their daily thoughts are, oh, I'm so naughty for smelling a slice of cake, you know. So you know, they're not dead to you. But you don't want to be influenced by that stuff. So meet them. Also get some more fat positive anti diet stuff on your social media instead. So you're helping your brain supporting that. And then you're going to set a boundary with her. Okay? Because this stuff is harmful to you, you can see it's making you feel you say depressed. And you find it depressing and hurtful. That's this this big stuff, right? So you might want to set a boundary with her. You don't have to, you don't have to be friends with her. If you realize that actually, this is all that her personality is. Actually you don't really like her that much. You're gonna end the friendship, why not? But if you want to be friends with her, you can do some of the things I'm going to be talking about in a little bit. So I'm gonna give you some words to say all right. Okay, so someone else's asked how do I still love my family stuck in diet culture when they're hurting me with their comments? Yeah, it's hard. And this is related to the previous question of the way that I feel about it. So there's that person, you have that foot who has a friend who's all like I'm doing this challenge. I feel like if you're British and standards reference, I feel like mystic mag. And I can see into the future. I can see into the future to March. April, May. February, right next year.

friend has had enough of a diet because it is absolutely soul destroying. Her body has rebelled against her. She is no longer losing the weight that she did at the beginning. She's desperate to eat the foods that she's been told that she's not allowed to eat. She is just it's just not working anymore for her. She's gonna quietly stop doing the things in the diet. She's gonna, you know, have all of those posts on social media being like, look how much weight I've lost. Look how good I'm good look And I am. And she's gonna be looking at those posts and feeling ashamed that she's not as soon as she was then at the lowest weight, she is going to be maybe having a more disordered relationship with food, that she might even have now an eating disorder, she might have spent money on new clothes that no longer fit and she's feeling deeply ashamed, she might not have things that feel comfortable to her when she goes out. She's really struggling and feeling and feeling embarrassed, because just a couple of months ago, or however long it takes. She was really like gloating about how good she felt and looked and all that type of stuff. And now she feels like an absolute abject failure. So for me, what I think about those people who are doing that is I feel real compassion for them, because it's like they're in that they're reaching for, for this thing, the holy grail of fineness and what fineness means, and they've got all this hope, in that they're doing, they're working really hard to become this thin person who is worthy and loved and desired and unhealthy, and all of those things that they don't feel currently, and they were doing it, and they could, then then then they didn't do it, and nothing wrong with them. Nothing due to them, but they will blame themselves. So I kind of feel like it is it's harmful to witness them in this stage of, you know, look at me and how thin I'm getting, that's harmful to witness, if you are in your journey of unlearning that stuff. And that can be very triggering. What I see is the After After, so you know the before and after I see the After After, and I see the the shame that this person is very, very likely going to be feeling. So you know, how do I still love my family stuck in diet culture, when they're hurting me with their comments, what you will do is you will work to set boundaries so that you are safe around these people while they're doing this or remove them from your life, you can do that too. But more likely, you're going to work to feel safe. And try to if you can see them as the after, after of what they what what is ahead for them most likely, you know, 97% chance that that's going to happen for them. And setting those boundaries I'm going to give you some more things to say. Someone else says how to resist not telling them to fuck off. I mean, you can you just do what you want, you can and sometimes set talent or fork off might be the most appropriate thing maybe for you. At that time. I'll give you an example of what I mean with that. I mean, it might not be the most effective communication if you just like walk in and you know, Aunt Sally is like so nice to see you and you're like fuck off Aunt Sally. Sally's desire to learn. But you know if Aunt Sally is has spent the last 30 years saying hey, you're a piece of shit. Yeah, eventually you might say fuck off. Someone else says can you remind everyone that people that fat people have eating disorders to Yeah, that's the thing is that we really are we really don't think that fat people could have a restrictive eating disorder which is guess what? Every eating disorder and presumed people presume that if that people have an eating disorder, it's it's binge eating disorder or bulimia. But normally just binge eating disorder because you know them then fat is be greedy. That's sarcasm by the way. Yeah. Hey, Patty said she had another comment, which was I've I've always heard boy patty is a big eater. Heard it all my life. It's just such a it's just why would we say this to people? You know, these just this one word. I was around a child and there was an ice cream Chuck truck. So this happened kind of fairly recently. And one of the parents said he wants ice cream. And the two children who were young said, yeah, the dad pointed to the little girl who was maybe three to three pointed to a tummy and said, you don't need any more. that you've already got a big tummy. And I I felt like I was watching in real time. Like the potential future again mystic Meg mystic Meg Cristobal have that kind of like, in 2030 years time that that child being in therapy or, or you know just talking with their friends being like I remember the first time my dad told me that I was too fat and we it was a wonderful summer's day and we were having ice cream and he poked my belly and said, You've had enough of that. I was that was my first memory I was three years old. And that absolutely changing the course of of that child's life. It was so heartbreaking. Anyway, so yeah, just you know, making me really depressed. Let me tell you some other really awful stories. You know, one time I saw someone kick a puppy, no, I that just never happened. ways I can make you feel more depressed while listening to the podcast. Alright, so word track ideas. All right. So let me give you some things to say. And I'll talk more about boundaries and what bounds like the anatomy of boundaries and stuff. Okay, so the good, the best thing to do is to either write down a couple of these, or memorize one of them or something as your go to because in the moment, you you're in your moment, you're in fight or flight, right, so Aunt Sally has been like, Oh, look how fat you are. And your, your heart starts beating faster, your your breathing is has become shallower. And your body is like, Okay, we're gonna fight this bitch. And then the more kind of, let's talk about it rational, being able to access the way that you want to communicate is probably less available to us. So if in that moment, you have a couple of words, and you can just say, Oh, what's on it, give me a second, get out your phone, look at your notes and be like, blah, blah, blah, whatever it is that you want to say, or to have that memorized. And it could even be that you're just gonna say, Oh, my thank you. Don't talk about bodies, whatever feels good to you, right? And these are suggestions and they might not feel like your words, and so you can make them into the way that you speak. Now, we spoke about, you know, saying telling Aunt Sally to fork off. Another episode I spoke I spoke about boundaries, and telling people how you feel. And if you think about a set of stairs, right? And our boundaries on the first step would be something gentle. Right? someone does something and it's not something that's really egregious, right? It's not something like they just hit you in the face. It's something you know, that you have decided warrants a gentle response. So that's the first step right. So step one, you might decide to give a gentle response. Now, if we look at step 234, or five, whatever. You look at step three, and house step what step three looks like, if someone does something and you don't have to necessarily go straight to step one, you can decide it's a step three response, you could decide it's a step five response. So you know, you might just go straight to the fuck off. Depending on the history of that person, depending on the situation, depending on your safety, you might have to physically protect yourself. And so that might be another step too. And so, say, if someone came and said, I'm here, I'm, here's my gun, I'm going to shoot you, you might find that it's not appropriate to say, I'm having some feelings about that. And I prefer it if you didn't, you go straight to literally running away or whatever it is you decide to do, right? Save your life, hit them in the face, whatever, right?

Obviously, it's not very often that that's going to happen. But however you choose to respond on this like set of scales, scales, steps, steps on the scale of steps is up to you. And you might have to move up on the steps, even if it feels inappropriate. And that's the one a lot of people Don't do is they'll do. And step one, or step one response. And they'll stay at step one, even though their boundary at step one or request at step one was not heard. If it's not heard, it will be probably a wise idea to restate the step one, or move to step two. So what are we talking about with the steps? Okay, so the first step is probably a gentle comment. So someone says something, oh, looks like you've gained some weight. Oh, you're gonna eat everything on that play? Something like that. Right? You might decide a gentle comment could be that you're gonna ignore their comment, and change the subject, right? So you're not engaging in it, but you're not saying anything. So that might be the gentlest way. You might say, I love you. It's so good to see you. Let's focus on joyful things today. You might say, I've realized that talking about food, or bodies, doesn't feel good to me. Can we talk about things that make us happy? Have you watched any good shows or movies recently? Right. So even within that, you can see how that's kind of heightened from ignoring to, you know, maybe being a little bit more assertive, but you're not being you're not telling them. If you do this, and I'm going to do that it's a very kind of gentle thing. And so you can come up with with one of those that feel good or use use one of those that I've given as an example. Okay, so let's pretend that step one, step two, might be a firmer, still pretty gentle, plus a request. So you now you're making a request. So first, you're maybe just saying a statement like, oh, that doesn't sound good. Or let's not do that. Or changing the subject, whatever. But here we're going to be requesting. So you could say, Let's not talk about food or bodies. Change the subject. These brussel sprouts are delicious. Who would ever say brussels sprouts are delicious? Although, you know, I did try brussel sprouts, where they were like deep fried with parmesan and lemon. And there was bacon. I didn't try the bacon at the time. So I was vegetarian, but the bacon tastes good, too. Anyway, so firm and request, nobody talked please. Thank you. Another one could be when you talk about my body, it makes me feel uncomfortable. Can you stop, please. So you see how they're a little bit more assertive. Okay, so imagine if they'll just ignore that, you might decide that you're going to make a request with a boundary. Okay? So none of those that we've said before, have a boundary attached. And so a boundary is going to be saying, I'm going to this is what this is what's going to happen like a consequence of your behavior. You might, you might decide, I'm going to go straight to boundary, I'm not going to do the soft stuff. So request with boundary. If you keep talking about food choices, or my body, I will take my dinner and eat in the other room. Or I won't be able to come to our next gathering, if we continue focusing on dieting, and Body Talk. Or when you make those sorts of comments, it really hurts me. So the next time you do it, I will have to leave. Okay, so you're telling them what your behavior is going to be? Right? I will do this. If you do that. You're making a request from them, can you stop doing that? And then you're gonna get you're telling them what your behavior will be? If they don't meet that request. Okay, so they can choose what they want to do. They could say, I don't care, that's fine, then you will then take the action that you need to take. So if you want to amp it up a level and you want to firmer like the firmest response, you can say something like, Absolutely not. I will not tolerate being shamed from my body or food choices. You could just say, Stop. You could say, oh, no, the food please have arrived. Please ask them to leave immediately. So the firmest response, none of those had any kind of boundaries with them. So you might want to add a boundary in there too. But any of those ways that you decide to respond is absolutely fine. So let's pretend You know, your family and everyone is like, Oh, yes, yes. And and so if someone was saying to me, Oh, you're so sensitive, what I might say is, Listen, I have had a history of an eating disorder, and a really terrible relationship with my body. So you may feel like you're, you're just joking. Or you may feel like, you know, I'm taking it the wrong way. But this is how it lands for me. And so in order to make me feel a little bit more comfortable, I'm not able to be around those types of comments in order to help me with my healing. Now, that's a very kind of generous response in regards to like sharing stuff about you. You don't have to, you can just say, That's my boundary, they say, You're so sensitive. Okay, well, that's my boundary. Why are you being like that? Why are you saying I'm so mean? I'm not saying that. You're mean? I'm just saying that that's what feels good for me. That's what is acceptable for me. Right? We don't need to go into debates with with people saying, I'm not sensitive and, and, you know, okay, fine, sorry, or anything like that, and trying to convince them, what you what you're what you need, is what you need, what you need is what you need, right? And if you need to be in an environment that's free from bigotry, Premier sample request, then, then that's, that's you, right? So they can decide what to do with that information. You've given them some information, here is a critical part. This is where almost every one trips up. They say, can you stop doing this thing? The family says You're so sensitive. With that piece of information, we know how they're going to react if we enact a boundary. And by the way, can you please stop doing that thing? We're not stating really a boundary? We've not told them? What's going to happen. So can you stop? Can you stop talking about my body? Oh, you're so sensitive. Yeah, yeah, I'm sensitive. Absolutely. But can you stop doing that? You know, and then see what they say. Next time I say it. You would you would say? If you talk about my body, again, I will have to leave? Are you sensitive? Okay, yeah. But I will have to leave if we keep talking about bodies and diets. And then this is a really important, but next time they do it, follow through on your boundary. Okay? That is the most critical and difficult thing that's putting the electric fence up. Right? If people are used to just going into that field, doing the same thing, talking about diets and bodies in front of you, you're going to have to help them understand what's appropriate for you. Again, they can continue doing whatever they want, but to have access to you, they need to refrain from behaving in ways that hurt you. Now, saying that there are many times where we cannot leave, we cannot go to the other room. We cannot enforce a boundary or even say here's my boundary, because we are in unsafe situations. There are you know, say you, you're living with your mum, and your mum says all this shit, but she is financially supporting you. And you know that she has a hairpin trigger. And if you said anything to her that she will throw you out of the house and then you could end up being

with nowhere to live. Right? That might be your situation and so it would not be probably the wisest to say hey, listen, Mum, if you do that, then I'm going to do this because then my might say we'll get the fuck out of my house. However, if you're just nervous because you don't know how someone's gonna react, or you're nervous, because, you know, someone's gonna say you're sensitive or You're unreasonable or whatever it is. I would try to give people the benefit of the doubt and give them the benefit of the doubt that if you clearly communicate, they'll get it and that they might have to be taken to you walking away or whatever it is that you're going to do for them to then get it. But give them that grace to be closer to you. Because sometimes we'll say, Oh, they won't listen, they won't listen. And that is not giving them the opportunity to be close to you as someone that they love. Because you're saying they are absolutely incapable of being an efficient communicator, or a better communicator, or incapable of putting aside their beliefs in order to make me feel more loved and accepted and comfortable. And if a lot of times, if people in our life knew how distressed that this stuff makes us, they would cut it out. Not all the time. But if they knew that it was making you dread spending time with them, be anxious, led to you to being deeper into your eating disorder, or, or, you know, hating yourself as you're falling asleep at night thinking I wish I was thinner. You know, that would be really impactful for them. Not everyone. But if we can try and give people the benefit of the doubt that if we clearly communicate, this isn't acceptable. They're going to react how they want and go through the process of actually implementing the consequence of our boundary. You never know what could happen. And sometimes that's what it takes for them to get it because they might have probably known you for decades. And knowing you for decades, they've learned what is acceptable. For decades, I've been walking into that field and pulling pulling Dominic's tail. And if you walk by and say dominate doesn't like that, they probably won't hear that. They might not even hear it. If you say dominate doesn't like it when you have this pool towel, can you stop? They might not even hear that. And they can might only be able to hear it if you put up that fence. And you say listen, I told you, you can't come and pull dominates town anymore. He doesn't like it. And he's a happy little Christmas donkey. So leave him alone. All right, so that's a big thing. This is post that was created last year. And it's it's around the internet again this year. And I really like the formula that they've created. By the way, all of these word tracks I'm saying, I'm going to make it into a Instagram post so that you can go and refer to it. So that's going to be out the same time the same week that this podcast is out by the way so go to my Instagram to see if that post is there and if there's anything there that you can pull from but anyway, your body is good. Your underscore body underscore is underscore good. Made a post called How to survive the holidays with fat phobic friends and family by Amanda Martinez Beck and J. Nicole Morgan Co hosts of the fat and faithful podcast. So they have a nice spice ICE Method. I don't know if they created it, but it's nice. It's nice. It's spicy is I'd see. I googled that but all that came up was a rapper. Nice spice or nice ice spicy ice anyway. Now I want to know about boundaries. Anyway. Okay, so this is our post. All of the links that I'm going to talk I've been talking about. Anything that I'm linking is in the show notes. For this episode. It's first for a first for e.com through tiny.com forward slash 182. God I forgot what my fucking website was facebook.com forward slash 182. But you can also find them in the if you're listening on app on an app anyway. Okay, so when someone says you look great, have you lost weight? The nice response No, I choose to focus on other things and Wait Good to see you though. The spice Nope, still felt still fat. There are so many more interesting things to talk about them. Wait the ice response Hi. Please do not comment on my body thin does not equal happy or better. So this is actually I've just realized this is kind of like the similar and similar analogy of the stairs thing of the like the stage one and stage two, stage three stage three. But there's no who kind of consequences the boundary thing so if you want the consequences of boundary thing you might decide to add that on here. Okay, when someone comments on something you put on your plate nice. I didn't drive all this way to spend today eating salad spice. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you think my food choices were any of your business because they're not nice stare rude. Continue loading plate that's a good one that I think that one rude is a good one. Obviously. I don't know how they're saying it. It's in capitals. That's what I hear is rude. Or it could be all right. Whatever you are you want to say it. That can be really funny because if you're just like, you know, someone's saying, oh, have you heard about the immigrants and you can just be like read it when someone makes a joke about the holidays making us fat you could say nice. I'll stop it one day of feasting will not make anyone fatter than they already are. The spice response and nothing wrong with being fat. Ice. Why is fatness a punch line for you? Do you think my body size is funny or to be mocked? Next when food is moralized the nice oh stop food food is morally neutral and today is about feasting. Let it go. Spice bad for you. Is it crawling with maggots? Because that's the only way I see piping bad. That's not the way only way I see piping bad. The only way that I see the only other way I see piping bad if it's a fucking pumpkin pie. That shit needs to go in the bin. Pumpkin pie who wants to eat a fucking pump? Like a mashed potato pie mixed with cinnamon spice with cream while she mashed potato with cream. That sounds good. In a pie. That sounds good. But no pumpkin pie. That shit is so little gross. Bad for you. Yes, it was a pumpkin pie. It's bad for you. It's bad. It's bad for your your soul. Ice stop moralizing food. It is it is harmful to talk and think about food this way. And I will not let you talk this way today. Around me and my children. Yeah, yes. Whether you choose nice spice or ice, don't be afraid to voice your boundaries and push back against diet culture and fat phobia during the holiday season. Love Amanda and Nicole. That's great. That's great. So, again, these are not necessarily boundaries. Because it's not saying, Well, no, they No, no, no, no, they didn't. You know, they're saying, you know, one of them isn't saying, Oh, stop it. Oh, stop. Yeah, so there's a couple of stops. But some of them are also just comments and comments. Not saying that the that's not good. But as in it's a different, it's a different thing. So if in the past, you've just been saying, What's wrong with being fat, which is a great thing to say. But it's kind of like opening a conversation where you may not be in that place to have a conversation. Or, and also, they could be hearing. That's okay, because I can say about this stuff, because then I can debate with someone so you and your thinking in your mind, stop fucking talking about that. But that might they might not have heard stop talking about that, because they have heard you say What's wrong with being fat, which is opening a conversation, which is, again, if you want to open a conversation, great, perfect. If you want to shut that shit down, being really clear and saying, I don't want that around me. We'll shut it down. And it might be that you do the other methods first before you get in with the the space here are the ICF things right? Okay, so there's another concept called Hard and Soft boundary. So I just want to share those with you that concept with you.

There's a link to this. Someone's website que si resolved.com. They say it's essential to develop and maintain healthy boundaries. Think of a boundary like this. A boundary is something allows you to keep what you want close to you and what you don't want away from you. This can be people objects, concepts, whatever you want. The main idea that, my dear, my main idea is that the boundary is something you maintain to keep yourself safe and comfortable. There are multiple types of boundaries, but the main types being hard and soft. So what's the difference? A hard boundary is something that is fixed something that doesn't let things in or out. In other words are hard boundaries always enforced. A good example of a hard boundary is not to drink and drive, no matter the circumstances. You don't cross the boundary of driving under the influence because it risks your safety, as well as the safety of others. A soft boundary is something that is determined by situations or by other people. And like a hard boundary, a soft boundary isn't always enforced. Using the car example, again, a soft boundary could be not allowing anyone to drive your car. However, in the event of you being intoxicated, you allow your friend to drive your car for you. In this circumstance, you cross your boundary of not letting others drive your car to avoid driving under the influence. Here's another way of thinking about hard and soft boundaries. Hard boundaries are black and white. Whereas soft boundaries are more gray. Although I use the example of drinking and driving your boundaries or whatever you make them. As mentioned before boundaries can relate to people, objects, and even concepts. So we all have we all have boundaries in our life. You might say, I'm terrible with boundaries, but you're not, you're not actually. Because imagine if someone knocked on your door and said, Hey, can I come live in your spare room and not pay any rent and eat all your food? You'd say? No. Right? Probably most likely, you'd say no. And there'll be a deck, right? They'll just like, Ah, I'm really rich as well. So I just know that I need your help. I'm just being a dickhead. Right? Yeah, and so say if someone came in spat on your shoe or something, you'd be like, a What the fuck, right? Don't do that. So we know how to set boundaries. It's when with people we love and because when we want to appear to be a good person, that's the thing is, you know what, sometimes people are going to think that we're bad people, sometimes people are going to say, You're too sensitive, whatever. Sometimes people are gonna be like, Why don't want to be friends with them if they don't want to, if they won't let me talk about how fat people are pieces of shit. You know, so you can be like, oh, I want to be friends with you. So how people react to our boundaries is up to them, right. And so you already have boundaries, you've already set boundaries, and you've probably got hard and soft boundaries in certain situations. And also something that can be a hard boundary in some situations could be a softer boundary and other well, it that would be that there'd be a softer boundary. But so for example, with me, in my life with people I know, I don't allow diet talk, as in them being like, Oh, I'm gonna go to a diet and sugar is bad and shit like that. Right? That's, that's like, I cut that out. However, say, if someone messaged me and says, says, I have all these beliefs that, you know, ABC or, or I'm struggling, and I Oh, you know, I feel like I can never get a boyfriend because I'm fat. That would be I'd be like, Oh, that's an opportunity to have a conversation. Right. And so I wouldn't be like, don't talk about that stuff in front of me because it makes me feel bad. Because I know, it's a like a professional setting, almost Well, professional, the internet, you know, but it's, it's, it's, there's an opportunity for education. Whereas with my friends and family, I want them to know what my values are. And so therefore, it's a hard, it's a hard boundary, that's not something that I will tolerate. Even though it's a hard boundary, I still, that doesn't mean that I'm going to go straight to your a piece of shit. I would, depending on the situation, you know, might do like level one on the stairs or level three or whatever, right? So but it would never just fly in my content, like it could happen once and I just don't say anything. But it would not long term fly as for a long term relationship, like at all. Okay, so that's hard and soft boundaries. And finally, I want to share with you signs your boundaries are being violated so you can see if that's happening to you. So signs that your boundaries are being violated. This is from Psychcentral. Number one, you have a codependent relationship. And so this when we're talking about go dependent, it refers to a specific relationship dynamic where one person puts their own needs to the backburner, and the others, that tends to avoid accountability for their actions. So in this section, they say, often folks believe that unless they sacrifice their boundaries for the needs of others, they won't be liked, loved or valued. So the belief that you having boundaries means that you're a bad person, and you haven't boundaries means that you will not be liked, loved or valued. And that's not the truth. Values route. Boundaries are such a fucking gift. Their huge gift. Would you rather your someone in your life say, hey, you know that one thing that you do? It doesn't make me feel good? Would you rather them say that to you? And you fix that thing? And you might feel like, Oh God, I'm a terrible person, and then you get over it? Or would you have that relationship and never know, when it could have been something that a value, really valuable relationship to you? And if you just knew this one thing, you could fix it or stop it? It's a gift to be able to set boundaries with others. Okay, number two, you have to set the boundary over and over again. Yeah. So we have to just be really kind of straightforward. And like, this is this and, and they out here, it might feel like conversation, Dave deja vu. So we just have to just follow through with what we're doing. And it's okay if they ask questions about, like, why this is important to us or whatever, but not debating whether our boundary is valid. Like a real judge, you're just saying this is what I'm going to do. Right? Not what they have to do. Number three, you have expressed discomfort. So they say here, you set and explained your boundaries, but they keep breaking them. Now, you're also expressing how that makes you feel, and they continue to behave similarly. Similarly, this is another example of boundary violation, a main sign that someone doesn't respect your boundaries if they don't stop their actions after you've expressed discomfort. If you've essentially asked for something to stop, and someone attempts to persuade you otherwise, or continues to engage in activities you're against, those are signs that they don't respect your boundaries. Number four, you feel off. Like here, they're saying you just don't feel good in the relationship, and they might that might also include how you feel in your body. Number five, they don't listen to or acknowledge you. A sign that someone doesn't respect your boundaries is interrupting or changing the conversation when you're sharing something important to you. Number six, they minimize or mock your requests. Sometimes it's difficult to consider other people's intentions when they say things quote, as a joke, or you're not clear if they're quote, only teasing, but sometimes humor may be a manipulation tactic to use to cross the line. So signs of a broken boundary may be invalidating or minimizing your knees that lead to the boundary for example, oh, come on, you can't seriously be that bothered by my phone calls at night, you get plenty of sleep. gaslighting may also be a red flag. This may involve saying things like you're just being too sensitive, lighten up. Number seven, they pressure you as possible that besides ignoring your request, someone may try to change your mind about your boundaries. This can be done in many ways, from ridiculing your logic for the boundary to making you feel guilty for setting the limit. They may also use a silent treatment or ghost you whenever you set the record straight. All of these may be an attempt to continue violating your boundaries and manipulating you into thinking their right to do so. And then they gave in this article, they give some examples of what to do if people are violating your boundaries. This is like written by counselors therapists. So yeah, link for that into the in the Sharma house. But this is honestly this is a perros. Sassaman last time, I talked to my therapist, I was talking about a boundary that I'd set with someone and being like, for fuck sake, I set this boundary five years ago. Why am I still having to deal with this, that like the fallout from me setting this boundary.

And the thing is, like, if someone is in your life in the periphery, and they're always going to be in your life in the periphery, but they're not in your life, there's always going to be butts up against those boundaries, when my boundary is no contact with someone and someone in my family, so it's kind of, you know, peripheral. So there's gonna be times where I'm gonna be in the same place, and how that slike continual, you know, it's like maintaining that fence of like, what to do, what is the best tactic and how to protect myself? And it's, it's frustrating and hard, but it can be really successful. And I have many relationships in my life now where I've said, Oh, we don't do that anymore, or whatever it is, you know, and it can you know, We just start with the, you know, the nice by size with, you know, Oh, don't say that or, you know, I've only once ever had to go to the I'm going to actually do something if you don't stop doing this thing. And that's the ending the relationship. But that took a yes to get to. Yes. Yes, right of being like, Oh, why am I such as table? Or this type of stuff? Yeah. So probably what's going to happen is use say, please stop doing that. And they will stop doing it. Or if they don't, you say, if you continue doing that, I'm going to do this. They continue. You, you enforce your boundary. And then they're like, oh, shit, they're serious. And then they stopped doing that. That's feels like probably the more extreme version of what's going to happen is you haven't enforced your boundary by actually following through on the consequence. But more often than not, all you have to do is say, one of those things. Oh, we don't talk about bodies. Oh, I've learned that. This doesn't feel good for me. So can we avoid it? One of those phrases, and it's just going to nip it in the nip it in the is it bird or but I think North American safe, but I think some Canadians and Europeans say but for the rest of the world, and if I can, no, but whatever one you say. It's going to nip it. I think it's the but I think it's a but I think it's a gardening term where it's you're nipping it in the bud, where you know, where something's beginning to bloom, you're going to nip it in the bud so it doesn't bloom into something. Something else. It's so is the bird. It's not but it's but I've just decided without googling it that it must be that because it makes sense. But if I'm wrong, tell me. So by the way, I have a mini course called boundary boss, that I do a terrific job of NaVi telling you that it exists. I don't want to make money. Ah, yeah, boundary Boss, I'm going to do I've decided just when I was recording that I'm going to do a it's normally $47 to get the course it's really good. But I'm going to do an end of year sale where I make it $27 OMG. So when I do that, for when the podcast comes out, I'll make a code or something. Yeah, that's what I'll do. I'll make a code I'll put the code wherever it is. What should we put make the code as Why is it so hard to think of a Volkswagen code code I can just make it anything up and I'm like I can't think let's just make it the code is going to be boundary boundary. So when you go to the checkout page, put the code as boundary if it's changes for any reason because I realized I can't have a eight letter word or something like that then I'll let you know but the link for boundary boss if you want to get it will be in the show notes and that talks more about this stuff and other stuff. Boundary boss actually got some I got an email from someone in the USA and you're violating you're violating all is it intellectual No not like intellectual property but they had bound they have a course called boundary boss which I had no clue about. And I think they must have made it after me anyway so they've they're like their boundary bosses is it must be like gangbusters like sales loads course mine doesn't but they're in the US right and so they sent our cease and desist that's what it is I sent a cease and because I must have Googled boundary boss and maybe like on page 17 of Google mine came up and they were like, Why found one they better stop using our name and then I was like, I'm in Canada so that doesn't count they're like oh yeah, sorry about that. Just record it and then there's I mean ever email saying cease and desist and I said I'm in Canada Ciao. Who knows that was like a year ago anyway so maybe they've registered boundary bosses are Canadian are in that process of it so that so get get it while it's there. I just have to change us change the name of it as a boundary boundary bash or something? My boundary bitch boundary boundary. Not no whatever. Anyway, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, take care of yourself while you're doing this stuff. And you know what, you don't have to go spend time with people if you don't want that. You You're allowed to just safe hug her and just watch watch some Telly at home or whatever if it's feels really shitty for you. But whatever you decide decide to do to stay alive in this world I mean yeah, you know and if you if you if you're like, I'm going to set a boundary and then you go around and you're just like, Ah, I don't want to win I'm scared and I'm not going to do it and you don't do it. Give yourself grace this this stuff is Ha ha are do hard. That's what that that's what that spells hard. It's hard, especially if you're a people pleaser right? So give yourself Grace I'll stop I'll stop rambling The sun has set in here. What time is it? It's like oh my god and 345 I hate Daylight Savings daylight savings can suck my fat tits oh you know what I'm gonna leave you on there's a there's a Oh boundaries Oh boundaries song right oh oh there's that oh there's a there's a Christmas song which is by Regan Chastain and someone else Oh boundaries or boundaries. But there's a boundary Song For Kids which is quite good let's I'm gonna listen to it some people like hugs or standing close, teasing or tickling while others do high fives handshakes, kisses sharing milkshakes things people do and say with others are not okay. Your feelings over politics No matter your size so you can set boundaries to clarify and you can say please stop I don't like that feeling uncomfortable. I need my space around me to take it personally just a boundary it's just a boundary stop don't like that. I'm clearly not comfortable in that space men around me take it personally it's just a boundary it's a boundary that's a boundary is a fucking banger in it. I'll put that in the show notes some of these key songs are really good oh and then they read also I find that Reagan Chastain one oh boundaries all boundaries I can't remember what the how it go hos and let's see if I can find it Reagan Regan chess the holly boundary song Jeanette to Patti that saves things in it boundaries you helped me deal with family all boundaries all boundaries with me

Vinny Welsby 1:23:38

another banger. Oh, I'm just giving you all the goods today aren't I? That's from 10 years ago. every year or every year I remember that song I'm like I get listened to the boundary song. Very well song. Very well sung. What was the last thing? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, two more things. Do more things. Two more things. Okay. Okay, sorry. I'll stop I'll stop talking to you. I'm sorry. Two more things. A little a little Did you see less dog? I'm gonna go find it. It's so funny. What's her last name? Leslie Jones comedian Hello girls. I was just remember her Instagram handle is less dog this dog maybe it's less dog not let's yeah is less dog Leslie Jones. Lindsay Jones has a higher Leslie Jones to come to your next family dinner. To get people to stop talking about shit. I'm gonna put that in the show notes so you can see it. I'll put on my page man that fun is funniest work. And also there's I'm going to find that I'm gonna see if I can find it. I don't know if I can find it. Anyway, there's I'll find them. Leslie Jones things like this other thing. I don't know who it's by. There is there So one person who talked about setting boundaries with with family members but doing it like she's talking to preschoolers and so she'll say all of these like phrases that are like, eyes on me cuddle bees. Now what do we do when someone says that they don't like that? Look at their face to say lace, Facebook frowny sad? Yes, so that means that they don't like it when you say, and so it's really funny they talk about like, they you know, like, aren't LINDA You know, this is if, if, if they're frowning faces frowny sad, that means keep your hands to yourself, aren't Linda, it's really funny. So so that could be another method for you to try with your family friends who are saying shit, oh, look at me Applebee's or I'm making these phrases up but she's got like the proper talking to children phrases down. When we keep our hands to ourselves. We keep our comments to ourselves. Yeah, anyway, go check out this. Leslie Jones thing I found it. Yeah. About Thanksgiving. It's it is. I've watched it probably like seven times. In the show notes, there's gonna be like 75,000 foot in links in the show notes. Leslie Jones. Funny Video. Okay. Okay, well, you know, thanks for hanging out. I hope you had a nice holiday time. Nice 2023 I hope you're alive. If you are congrats. If you're listening to this beyond the grave occupy well then I've been there and watch the fuck out for the new year's new year's new you don't have to always remember this will bullshit. It's gonna pass come February or even by come January 15. People are going to be off the diet wagon or whatever. So in during that time, if that's difficult for you just go and get some extra juicy fat content in your brain. Surround yourself by fatty goodness, maybe in Facebook groups or whatever. If you go to Kofi, you can download my fat resource guide and in there, there'll be TV shows and TEDx Talks is to watch as are so you can do that. You can listen to the 181 other episodes of first fatty podcast you can just go and have a big ol fuckin nap. That sounds good, doesn't it? Oh. Oh, that sounds good. Yeah, make nap. Yeah, go for nap. Just got to have a nap right now. No, I'm gonna stop playing and okay. Just hour and a half episode Jesus. Okay, okay. Well, I'll see you in the next episode. And remember to stay face fatty and I'll see you in a while Oh ALLAH guy tall Good.

Episode 181 Transcript

SUMMARY:

• Misconceptions about fat liberation. 0:00

• Fatphobia and its impact on society. 5:32

• Body autonomy and fatness. 11:04

• Fatness, eating disorders, and societal treatment. 14:48

• Fatness and health outcomes. 20:22

• Fatness, health, and societal attitudes. 26:06

• Fat liberation and influencing others. 34:28

• Fat liberation and body positivity. 39:41

• Fat liberation and body acceptance. 45:59

• Body positivity, fat liberation, and health accessibility. 50:39

• Body autonomy and fat acceptance. 56:37

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to The Fierce Fatty Podcast Episode 181: Fat Liberation Gone Too Far: Misconceptions and Mistakes. I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Vinny Welsby 0:27

Hello, welcome to this episode so nice to see ya. How's life? What's the crack? What's going on? Are you okay? I'm okay. Hey, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for last episode as be behaving as my therapists. Guess what? I feel so much better. So much better about this whole situation. Like there's this the shame that was just there just lingering like a bad smell. And a lot of it has been lifted. Just by sharing the story with you. So that's just what a life lesson What a life lesson. I know that probably most of you don't have a podcast that you can share your, your problems with. But perhaps if you are burdened by shame about something, perhaps if it feels good for you, or safe for you, sharing that with someone can be helpful. Shame cannot survive the light, remember? And yeah, also if you're like worried about me, or my mental health, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm good. I'm, you know, in a totally different situation. I live it back in Vancouver now, which is my happy place and have access to my friends. We're not in lockdown. And quarantine we I have my therapist that I talked to every three weeks like I have Dougie the dog. So don't you worry about me. Okay. Everything's good in my life. And obviously, I was sharing some shit times. But you know, we'll go through shit time. So, yeah. Okay, well, this episode I have been saving up because I've been collecting collecting things that I see on the internet. When people are criticizing fat liberation, the things that they are saying. And I've been collecting them to make an episode. And so these some of these episodes, it really takes it takes a take some some research and time to get because you know, you'll have an idea and you're like, Okay, well I need to collect, you know, I need to do the research or find the evidence or, or, you know, let's see what's what's going on in the world. And so yeah, I've collected I've done an episode kind of similar to this. I googled fat liberation. And I went on to YouTube, or YouTube is a worst for fat. Hey, honestly, YouTube is like, if you look at Fat liberation, or fat positive on YouTube, like 97% of the stuff that you see is all just absolute dogshit horrible, awful. I did an episode of what some of these people were saying in in their videos. And it was just non sensical. It was one of the one of the one of the videos was this guy saying, oh, people who subscribe to fat liberation, want to sleep with their clothes off in bed and want to do that with children and want to do that with children. They don't know. And it's like, What the fuck? Whites? What? Oh, no, because I'd seen one article about someone saying something somewhere. And they're just like, oh, wow, you know, fat liberationists sexual deviance and perverts. I mean, we, we are probably but you know, not in that way. Yeah. So so this is more kind of understanding what people believe about fat people fatness, and therefore, why they might have certain beliefs that are a little bit more kind of on the cusp. So these are the beliefs where you know someone might be well meaning and you know, say if you say to your your friend or whatever, your mum or whatever, oh, you know, I'm getting into fat liberation or anti diet or whatever. And they say, or doesn't that mean that you're encouraging people to glorify Oh word or something? And so kind of lows here. sort of the aggressively ridiculous out there notions, because it's easy for us to dismiss them. You know, like, I've known you know, since fat liberation, you know, first was documented in the 1960s. I have not yet seen anywhere that says, if you're fat liberationist Union muscles sleep naked and with your children and invite it's just not happened yet. I mean, yeah, who knows you can't say that. Maybe there is a document that I've yet to discover that says that, but I'm going to err on highly unlikely because that is not what fat liberation is. Okay, so let's talk about, by the way, I had COVID I had COVID. So that's why we're kind of little less, less on the podcast. bit of time on the podcast. But does my voice sound a little bit deeper and sexier? Thanks, COVID. No, it's probably not COVID. But it was okay. It was the first time I had COVID. And obviously, I didn't die. So Whoa, gay for me. Anyway, today, I want to tell you that just another idea. Hey, COVID. feel sorry for me. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the core tenants of anti fat beliefs. Okay, so the core kind of the cornerstones of when someone is anti fat, the things that they are likely to believe and pray or believe the stuff that we do have have in the past belief, maybe still do believe maybe there's some kind of like, remnants in our brains where you're like, No, yeah, I do think that. So, and we're gonna talk about kind of, why, why this is me. This is me theorizing, right? And obviously, as a former former, the hardcore fat hater, I can remember like, what I was thinking, Okay, so first one is being fat is unhealthy. being unhealthy is bad, therefore, fat people are bad. So that idea that, you know, being fat is unhealthy is just stupid. Seems like, that's the kind of the biggest thing, right? And then underneath that, well, then unhealth means non health is bad, morally bad. And so fat people are bad because they are choosing to be unhealthy. So. So because of that our humanity is in question because by existing, we are bad. Therefore, what we say or the beliefs that we have, or the things that we support, or what we do in our life, all of that also must be bad. It's a shortcut to discount anything a fat person says because they have the ultimate ultimate quote, unquote, gotcha. And the gotcha is, but you're fat. So it doesn't count what you're saying, or you're feeling, you know, any joy, oh, goodness, doesn't count because you're fat, right? And I know that I felt like that about myself too. Like, it doesn't matter if I'm good at my job, or if I'm a nice person or whatever, because I'm fat. And you know, that kind of erases everything, right? Fat haters really kind of, well, you're fat. So it doesn't matter about who you are what you say. You have this fatal character flaw, and it's a character flaw, right? It's not a body type is a character flaw. According to many people, okay, next is fat people choose to be unhealthy. So, because of the portrayal of fatness in our society, we learn things about fat people. And one of those things is the idea that fat people have their fingers in their ears saying while a straw is in their mouth, I don't know how they're saying Lala while a straw is in the mouth too. But imagine stories and mouth sucking up or liquidated cheeseburger. You know, it's almost like that. Do you know that meme? You know, that meme is a cartoon, and it's a guy a cut, like it looks like a superhero or a captain or something. And he's wiping his sweaty brow as he tries to decide which button to press. Like, you know, you can imagine that one butter button is you know, launch the missiles and the other one is don't so that meme and it's it's almost like this is how I feel that fat hate is picture us that there are two buttons in front of us and we're the fat and sweaty person. And we're not sure which one to pick and the two buttons one says good health and the other says in bad health, plus a Twinkie, and we breathlessly slam the Twinkie one, because we're so uninterested in health and so desperate for a Twinkie, that we would forego choosing good health in order to embrace bad health and get a Twinkie.

Vinny Welsby 10:24

That's how I imagine that he is thinking about fat people. And so, you know, if you imagine that scenario, what you would think about that person is just like, disgust. You know, confusion is why they can't make the right decision. Like you'd worry want to, if you saw this play out, and you're watching it on the telly, you probably want to shout at the telly being like, don't hit the other one, hit that button, and then the person doesn't and you're like, oh, for fuck sake. And so that's how I feel that P that those who hate fat people or fatness our viewing fat people like just like, oh, for fuck sake, why did they do that? Why did they choose that? Why can't they control themselves. But the thing is, people have and should have body autonomy, right? And when the rest of society, other people, not fat people, when the rest of society who are not fat, exercise is body autonomy, autonomy, autonomy, often people don't have shit to say. And obviously, there's lots of examples where they do have shit to say. But most of the time, if people are exercising body autonomy, and it means that they could have worse health outcomes. Most of the time, if it lines with what we say is good and bad in society, people don't say shit, because they don't care about health, right? So say if someone drives a car, people are not saying, Oh, they're choosing to be unhealthy, because they're sick, because they could have a car accident, and they could be hurt and die, you're so unhealthy for driving a car, or if someone engages in sports. You know, people are not like, Oh, you're choosing to be unhealthy. You know, say if someone is going for a nice swim in the lake, they could drown. Oh, you're choosing to engage in bad, bad health. We only care about people's body autonomy, when we don't think they should be allowed to make decisions for themselves. And why shouldn't fat people have body autonomy? Because apparently, we always make the wrong decision. And we have no self control, we are unintelligent and incapable. And if that's what someone believes about fat folks, and it's easy to believe that we choose to be unhealthy, right? It's like a kind of like, a puzzle pieces fit together. If fat people are ignorant, and in denial, that it makes sense that we choose to be unhealthy. Fat, people will come fat and stay fat because they eat too much food and don't exercise or don't exercise enough. So something that is really comforting for me and for a lot of people is is certainty, right? is engaging in black and white thinking is knowing that if I do A, B, C, I'll be a good person. If I follow these rules, then I will achieve this result. If there's this input, then there will be this output. But the world is a lot more complicated than that. And that desire and that continuing to buy into black and white thinking is a manifestation of white supremacy culture. If you want to learn more about white supremacy, culture and how it manifests just Google white supremacy culture and you'll see the list of different things that we all engage in which are, which is not helpful, because the reality is that hardly anything in life is actually black and white. And that is true as well for human bodies. Even basic machines are more complicated than put this in and this thing will come out. There's so many different variables at play, and something as complicated as a human body. It's just not the reality for most people. And even if every single fat person was fat because they ate too much, quote, too much food and never exercised. That would still be our right as we should have body autonomy. But the thing is, that concept is a trope. It's a stereotype. We know that fatness is just a normal way to have a body and we have almost 100 years of data showing that eating less and exercising more doesn't make people thin in any reliable way. And we think about like most fat people in society do we think that most fat people in society, society would choose to stay fat, if they could just eat less and exercise more, and then permanently become a thin person, or temporarily become a vain person. Most people, as we know, engage in eating less and exercising more to try and attempt to become a thin person. Because living in societies of that person can be very, very difficult. For me, if I had the choice if someone said he can, you know, become a thin person or say a fat person, I'd stay a fat person. And there are many fat people who do choose to become fat, or to become fatter. They're probably the outliers. Not probably they are. If you think about, I would love to have the data of like, how many fat people have attempted to become thin? Not just how many people? Because we all know that many, most, most, especially women have attempted diets. But what percentage of fat people have have attempted diets? I'm sure that that info is somewhere, if you know, let me know. But because I think that the number is really high. So if it was a simple case of eat less exercise, more than most people in the world would be thin. Because other people know how egregious ly awful we treat fat people in society as fat people know, right, depending on what side you are, and depending on if you have other marginalized identities and, you know, right. Okay, so another belief that they have is that on rare occasions, very rare occasion, some fat people deserve pity, because they have an eating disorder, or other health condition that made them fat, but they are still disgusting, and should still lose weight. Right. So I don't know if you've ever, ever seen this or engaged in this yourself is that idea of being a good, Fatty, bad, fatty. And when you're deep in hating yourself, you will try to do display more good fatty characteristics, or behaviors. And sometimes you will do it to keep yourself safe because being a bad fatty in our society is not safe for for many people. And so what that might look like is saying, Oh, I'm fat, but I'm trying to lose weight, or I'm fat, but I only eat salads or I'm fat. But I you know, I'm an a marathon runner. And none of those things are bad, per se. But it's the idea of of a fat person being more palatable if they engage in good fatty behaviors. And so another trope is no fault fatty, of the good, Fatty, you know, so if you're a no fault, Fatty, then you're quote better than a fat person who has no quote, excuse for being fat. And this is definitely something that I have believed in the past. I remember sitting in the car with my then boyfriend and saying to him, You know what, I've worked it out. I've worked it out, sir. All fat people have eating disorders. I remember telling him all fat people have eating disorders. And he was like, Ah, I didn't know about that. And I was like, No, think about it. The reason that I'm fat is because, and I was saying that I ate too much food. I was not. I was restricting all of my life. I was restricting food. Anyway, so but I really had a skewed perspective of how much food I should eat. Also, it wouldn't make sense in my mind that I would see fat people in my life eating what I would deem as a normal amount of food. And because in my mind, fat people obviously eat so much food. That Okay, well, they must be eating food in private, therefore, they must have an eating disorder. Literally, I was just like, I know it. I know it. I know. All of these fat people are fat because they are secretly eating lots of food. Which is totally just No, wrong. Wrong. Because could it possibly be it be at the time that fat people just eat food the same way that street size people eat food? Yes. Yes. But I couldn't. I couldn't reconcile that in my brain. Like it just didn't make sense. It couldn't possibly be that fat people were just like the rest of us, you know, and me I was fat at the time too. And even if fatness was an eating disorder, or all fat people do have eating disorders As someone living with an eating disorder or illness deserve our love and care. Yeah.

Vinny Welsby 20:10

Yeah. But are there times that we should be withholding love and care? And in what, what are those circumstances? Who Who gets to decide who gets to decide that? You know, if you have something that that quote causes you to be fat, or that, you know, this is all like, we don't really know, a lot of times what comes first and what causes what an you know? So, you know, I'm saying causes in quotation marks. Even if you have something that causes fatness. Does that mean that you're okay, but then what if someone else says, I don't believe it does cause fatness? Well, then are you not okay? Like is like who gets his side? Right? Are we going to have a questionnaire when someone comes into the hospital, where we ask them every choice that they have ever made in life, and the choices that we personally don't like, according to our politics, I mean that they go to the bad patient Ward, and are denied or delayed treatment. Because that's totalitarianism or fascism or authoritarianism. And, you know, I'm saying that like, go to the bad patient Ward, we're kind of doing that a lot of times, because when we're looking at people, we're making a judgement, right? We all do it, right? We make judgments about who they are. And when people are accessing care, healthcare providers are humans, and they also will be making judgments. And that's why things like when black folks have babies, their mortality rate is sky high compared to white people who deliver babies. That's why when we had bird flu, h one n one, and fat people were dying at a higher rates. And people were saying what's because they're fat. And then afterwards, they looked at the actual what was going on, and it turned out that fat people were getting treatment provided to them later when they were in hospital. And that delay meant that they had worse outcomes. And so that bias that the healthcare providers had, well, fat people have worse outcomes. So should we be giving them the treatment and therefore delaying treatment, therefore, they have bad outcomes, therefore, we were right, that people have worse outcomes. So all of this is just you know, who gets to decide if someone is is worthy? Do we want to have a society that has this pity meter where someone that deserves pity? It will be doled out to them and someone who doesn't then they did you know, they're they're rejected from society because we don't like that they have made a choice, that means that they are less healthy. Okay, next fat people deny any claims that fatness is linked with poor health outcomes. So this is this is just not accurate, right. So, in fact, liberationist have pointed out that we have a correlation with fatness and certain conditions, and therefore, let's explore what the cause could be. So we asked for more inquiry. So, for example, historically, women have been more likely to die in car crashes. Now, is that because women are inherently unhealthy and weak? Or can we investigate a little bit more and find out that it's because crash test dummies were made it as the size and weight and a dimension of men, and that seat belts were designed for men's bodies? Right So currently, where we're at with science around fatness is that fat people may have worse outcomes in certain areas. We don't know why. Therefore, we're just going to blame the fatness. So it's like any other you know, example say with this example of the women are more likely to die in a car crash. Imagine if they stopped there and said, it's because they're women. Women, women just you know, they're bad drivers. That's why they're dying more in car crashes. They're just their bodies are not meant to be traveling in boxes at 70 miles per hour. You know, it's like those uh, remember when it was a bicycles came about and it was like women shouldn't be going on there because they're going to have orgasms and you know, have fun and stuff and women's bodies can't travel that speed because of that, you know, they're there. It ovaries would fly out through their eyeballs or something. Right? And so so we can, you know, have more inquiry and discoveries, and let's see what could be going on. And so, where most people are out is that there's a correlation, therefore, it means that fatness is the cause. But fat liberation has says there's a correlation. And let's continue exploring what the cause could be. Of any from the future here. Just wanted to add in here, when I say let's continue to explore what the cause could be. I'm referring to the idea that it's actually fat shaming, it's actually Fat people not being getting not getting evidence based care. It's the fact that fat folks are more likely to have dieted, which causes poor health outcomes. Not let's continue to belabor the point, that fat people might have different outcomes. And it's due to having fat tissue when we don't have that evidence. Kind of like, you know, the, you know, the whole story about vaccines and autism, and how it's one dodgy British doctor who made up a study, it's watch documentary, if you haven't seen it before, go watch a documentary on it. There's loads of things on YouTube. And so because of that, there was the whole big movement of anti Vax movement. And so then because of that, there had to be many, many, many, many, many, many studies to debunk. This guy's claims. He lost his license, by the way, so that's satisfying. He ended up marrying Elle Macpherson. Remember to remember I think that's huge to be married. Married model anyway. He lives in America now. Anyway. sidetrack. So, you know, so much time was time was wasted in so many people die because they were exploring, like, Do vaccines cause autism? When autism? It like? Would you rather have a dead child or a child with autism? I mean, to most of us, it's pretty simple question, right? And that position of autism is this absolutely horrific thing. This just, you know, thing that you got, you know, please, I'd rather just have a child that's not vaccinated. And this the same with this, like fatness, that this is it's this awful thing. And so we must keep studying fatness to understand how we can eradicate it, versus studying the bias around it, and the mistruths around it. And that type of stuff. So when I was yeah, when I was really listening to this section, I was like, I kind of sounds like I'm saying, we need to keep studying, like how terrible fatness is, but in we've literally got a bajillion studies. About that, and so it's probably time to move on. And as well, because there's no you know, I I've said, I've said many times, there's correlation with fat bodies and poor health outcomes. But there's also so much so much that shows us that there are so many protective benefits of fatness and fat people having better outcomes, and fat people living longer. I feel like I might have belaboured the point that yeah, we know that fat people can be sick for the fat haters so that they know that I know that fat people can be sick. I think I believe we did a little bit too much in this episode. So that people can be sick and they can be healthy, and they can be anywhere in between. And also, all of that doesn't mean that the fat person is is morally better or worse, because of their health status. So anyway, editing Vini out. Fat people get sick and die just like thin people. Fat people are at a higher risk for certain conditions. But we also know that fat people are protected from other conditions. And studies show that fat people can live longer than quote normal weight people. It's almost like human bodies are more complex and have different outcomes. And we can't just rely on BMI weird that right weird. So

Vinny Welsby 29:35

do we know want to be more curious to help understand how to better support health in all populations? Do we only want to offer health to people who are already healthy? Okay, so next one is fat people need to become thin people in order to be healthy and gain any amount of respect. So no, no one needs to change their bodies in order to gain respect. We can pursue health at our current size, and there's no rely have a way to make fat bodies into thin bodies. You know, it's a classic. Oh, there's a bully on the playground that says that, you know, so and so is ugly because they have ginger hair. Would you say to that child Whoa, bet you better fucking dye your hair go and dye your hair to blonde or something or Bill Brown or whatever, so that the bully can chill the fuck out. No, you educate the person to say you educate the bully but like hey, stop being a fucking dick. So why should have fat people have to become thin people in order to help people stop treating us like shit. We shouldn't. Okay, shaming fat people will help them become thin, or make them rightly embarrassed and contrite, which is good. Fat people must be ashamed of their fatness. Right, so, so people who don't like fat, fat nose or fat folks, they're like, Well, fine. If you must stay fat, you better be sorry about it, you better be embarrassed, you better be apologetic. So it's kind of the thought of if we can't control your body, we will try and control your mind and how you view yourself. And the way that we internalize that is if we can't be small in our bodies, we must keep our spirits small. We must be apologetic that we cannot or will not attempt to become a good thin person. If we quote choose this body, then we must apologize to society by having good behavior and a good attitude. Because accepting our bodies as they are may encourage other fat people to rise up and not like shaped shame take a hold of them and we can't have that. That is a scary concept like for people who are are historically marginalized. Not letting shame take a hold of them is scary because we like our fat people subservient and penitence. If fat people claim power, that means in the mind of a fat hater, they will want to take the fat haters power. And they will feel like I don't want to cede my power, as I know how badly society treats those with less power. And again, that's white supremacy, thinking of power as a finite thing, not marginalizing someone else doesn't mean then that they have to marginalize you in order for them to be equal to you. It just doesn't work like that. Right? But if you've had if you have power, the idea that someone could rise up and say, I'm not listening to your bullshit I'm going to take power for myself would be scary, right? And you'd be like, I don't want that to happen. So I'm going to do everything I can to continue with the narrative that those people are bad. All right, next is hating fatness is not about discrimination, but about concern for public health. So imagine, I'm a fat hater, I might say, if I deny that I have bias it means and I'm a good person. If I care about health, I am a good person. Admitting I may have bias shakes me to the core of my being, and is not something I could admit to because I believe bias means that I'm less worthy. I struggle with believing my worth. So let's not consider that I have bias. Because I'm doing good in the world by hating fatness and encouraging health and my view of health as a body size is backed by almost everyone I know. It's good to be cruel to be kind. And I'm thinking about the people who are who are liberal and who are fat haters, who really identify as being a good person. And the thing is, having bias doesn't make us a bad person, it just makes us have a makes us makes it it just means that we've grown up in a society. And we have a human brain. And our brain has developed shortcuts to help us make quick decisions and survive in society. And some of those things are helpful. And some of those things are not so helpful, right? It doesn't mean anything about you if you have bias and decide, just fucking love being biased. And I'm not going to change that than me. And maybe that's not so great. But the thing is most of our biases absolutely unconscious. And if we are working to be better members of society, and there's a huge area where we have really egregious bias that could be very unsettling for people to realize that. You'd probably just be like, No, it's not. It's not bias. It's about health. And caring about health is a good thing, right? It's what people might believe. Okay, finally, fat people are delusional complainers, and a joke Because I deny the humanity of fat people, anything they say is not evidence based or to be listened to. Their cries for equality are a joke when there are, quote, better, or more worthy causes. And anyway, all this could be easily solved if they become smaller. Fat discrimination isn't real people who, who people just don't like fat people because they are lazy, greedy. That's not bias or discrimination. That's just the truth. So that's for someone who is that would be someone who is a little bit more kind of on the right wing of political beliefs of denying the humanity of fat people and just laughing at Fat struggles. And or not believing them. This, you know, it's there's a name of the of one argument, I can't remember what it is, which is you shouldn't focus on this thing that interests you. Because there's there's better things to focus on. Like, you shouldn't focus it focus on fat liberation, because there are hungry children in Africa. That was how many times were we told that as as children? And did that help us? Did that was that was that helpful? No. And so shaming people for the thing that interests them and gets them excited, and is something that they're passionate about, it's not helpful. So something that I've been thinking about, I've been doing this course called calling in talking about canceled culture and, and you know how to be better at calling in or calling out or whatever, by law, Loretta J. Ross, it's really good. And something that she teaches is she says, what we teach about that in this class, you can share, but the stories that people share about their personal stuff, don't share. So one of these concepts I'm gonna share is spheres of influence. And so the my ability to influence people who were listening to the show is probably quite high, because you you're probably interested in, in fat liberation, you're probably already on the journey. You might like me, and so we share a lot of the same beliefs and political ideologies and stuff. And so my sphere of influence with maybe you, or maybe my friends, or maybe my family, or other people that love me, would be great. And so it's that idea of preaching to the choir. So if I want to make an impact in the world, it's great that we talk to the people around us. But if we think about, you know, expanding out into a circle, what about those people who are kind of, you know, maybe they share 80% of the same beliefs that we do, or 50%? And how much influence can we have over them? So say, maybe a family member would be in the 50%, right? Because maybe they say, Well, I love you, but I don't agree about the whole fat thing. That sphere of influence that you have, you still have influence and so you can still maybe influence them to into being kinder to fat people. Or maybe not. But the thing is, when someone is like 95%, out of you know, they've only got 5%, we only share 5% of similar beliefs. Trying to get them to admit the fact people are okay, or should be alive or should exist, like basic things. They're just like, Nah, I don't think so. We might be wasting our time at trying to get those people to come along on the journey with us. So the stuff in here is thinking about, you know, trying to understand the people that maybe only share a tiny amount of our beliefs up to people who are we're sharing a lot of the same beliefs, but maybe they're on the fence. Right? And so these are the people who could go either way and be like, fat liberation is bullshit, because they heard they heard a video about something and they're like, Well, I heard XYZ. So let's, let's quickly go over those those things. So that you can if you want to, don't have to, if you're having a conversation with someone that and they say, oh XYZ you can say

Vinny Welsby 39:36

not so much. Okay, so first thing, fat liberation. we demonize people seeking health. Wrong, wrong, in fact, in fact, we want access to health for more people, fat people, right. And so if people are seeking health Good For You love it. If you're not seeking house, good for you, whatever works for you, right? So it's just just incorrect. Okay, any thought of weight loss, or any focus on weight loss is disordered. By the way, these are direct accusations from people on the internet. I'm not gonna tell you. But their critiques of fat liberation. And so any thought of weight loss or any focus on weight loss is disordered. If you've listened to the show for a while, you realize what if even in this episode I mentioned, the most people have or do or currently attempting to become thinner. In fact, I think it's weird if people don't have that experience that like these were unicorns not weird as in, it's bad, but it's just so different. And it's so normal to think I want to be thinner. And guess what doesn't mean you're a bad person just means that you have a brain, and your brain is trying to do the best in the world, and help you feel safe, and help you be safe. And so if someone told me that they were attempting to lose weight, or they would like to be smaller. Yeah. That sounds pretty normal. That sounds like a lot of people. And that doesn't sound to me that I wouldn't say my brain wouldn't go to Oh, you have a disorder? Oh, there's something wrong with you. It to me, it just makes sense. You know, it's like saying, you know, I'm walking out in in the rain and snow, and I reach and put on a waterproof jacket. Yeah. Obviously. Does that mean that you're bad? Because you don't want to feel the rain in the snow? No, it means that you're a human being, okay? Fat people can never be unhealthy. No, wrong. We don't think that fat people are these superhuman can never be unhealthy. And never get sick, can never die. We just want people to treat that people less like pieces of shit. It's just so outrageous. Pursuing weight loss makes you a bad person, no nip NIRP that we engage in black and white thinking, listen, every mute movement is made up of people, right? And people, ah, this is going to be weird. We're all different, right? And so there are absolutely people in the fat liberation movement that would engage in black and white thinking. Because we're people and people are on everyone's on a different place in their journey and doing different things to you know, and we all have different mental health and we all have different life stories and, and so there are absolutely people in the fat liberation community that engage in black and white thinking, if that doesn't feel good for you, for me, it doesn't feel good. I don't like that kind of, you know, this good, this bad type of thing. That's not something that I would engage in. In every movement, there's going to be people who have more maybe stern beliefs or, or the way their style of communication is maybe a little bit more passionate, or a way that we wouldn't necessarily communicate or a way that doesn't feel good for us. And that's okay. Just because someone is in a certain movement, if you don't like them, you don't like their style of communicating, that's fine. You don't know You don't have to follow them or whatever. But the thing is, there's people in all different types of movement and there's dickheads in all types of movement and there's good people in all types of movement movements. Wow, not all types of movement is a good people. I don't know. I am getting in black and white thinking. I'm thinking the most extreme different types of movements anyway. There's gonna be decades everywhere as one from the same. So next, we all believe the same things and if you don't think the same, then you're a bad person. So because I don't want to engage in black and white thinking, for me, this isn't true. There of course are more people in there of course, are some people in the fat liberation community that are more authoritarian and they're more kind of like, you have to do this. I don't engage with that because I'm it's doesn't feel good for me. Something that Loretta J Ross said, which is our course that I'm taking, is when people think the same and move in the same direction. That's a cult. When people think many different ideas and move in one direction that's a movement. So if we're saying if you have if you want to belong to fat liberation, you Have to do ABC. And if you don't, then you are going to be, you know, you're going to be dead to me. And if you don't speak this way, and if you don't support these people, if you don't donate to this charity, if you don't do this, that's not the way the we're gonna get people to be excited to come along, in any movement with us. My way of doing things, is hoping that kindness and, and, and joy and, and love will bring people along. And I you know, I didn't come up with that, right? Like, some people have been doing that for forever. And unlearning the idea that we have to bully and shame people to come along on this journey. So, as with every movement, there's gonna be people, people who say you don't believe the same as me, then you're dead to me. Do you want to fuck with those people? I don't know. Maybe that feels good to you. Maybe not whatever. But I mean, I don't find it helpful. So for example, I got I put on a post on Facebook and it was an old post. And in that post, I use the word fat phobia. I generally don't tend to use fat fiber anymore. I tend to use anti fat bias. But someone put into the comments. You're not allowed to use fat phobia anymore. Because your fat friend, your fat friend has a podcast and it's famous fat liberationist. Your fat friend said you're not allowed to use fat phobia anymore. And it was a thin person. It was just like every other and some fat liberation is say, hey, let's use anti fatness. Because fat phobia is ablest. Because phobia assumes that there is a mental health condition there and fat people just anti fat people just hate fat people. But in my mind, yes, absolutely. And also, a lot of people use the word fat phobia. And so these are people who are on our side, right? These are people who are on our side. So do we want to crucify someone because they use a word, which is, you know, that was maybe tweaked in, you know, recently? And be like, well, actually, Oh, do we want to it's like preaching to the choir? Or do we want to make spend more of our efforts? On those people who have? Who are, you know, in our spheres of influence, maybe a little less, maybe they're using the O word. And you can say, hey, maybe that's a little bit more harmful? Yeah. So anyway, anyway, and so imagine if it was like, That person said, oh, you should use fat phobia. And then they're like, you're a terrible person. They didn't say this. But you know, kind of, you're a terrible person. And because you don't use that word. If you don't use anti fat bias, then you don't know anything. And you've got kind of contributed anything to the movement. And you need to be counseled and whatever. And, you know, that's how some people will perceive a comment like that. They'll perceive it as you're not welcome. But again, everyone, in fact, liberation, we're all different. Okay, next, if you you should only eat unhealthy food, quote, unhealthy food, and you shouldn't eat, quote, healthy food, even if you like it. So that we tell people that if they a salad, they're a bad fat person, because they should only be eating things that we perceive as unhealthy. That's not true. At all. We want to force people to fuck us or force people to be fat themselves. That's not true. I don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't like fat people. Are you kidding? I don't care if other people have fat or not. You write whatever. It's called to have different types of bodies in the world. The goal of fat liberation is to make everyone fat. No. It's just not using fat lib as an excuse to be greedy or lazy. No. And you know, if we think about everything that we talked about before, about what people think about fat fat folks and how all that is based on stereotypes, you know, the whole idea of greedy or lazy that we hate another one is that we hate straight size people. No,

Vinny Welsby 49:28

I'm sure there are fat people that hate thin people. But you know, probably like a handful of them. Because I mean shit. There's so many dumb people in the world we love in vivo, right? We are sex are thin people, then people are everywhere. Then people thin people haven't necessarily harmed or harmed us. It's society. And maybe thin people have been the ones to perpetuate it but you know, it's just this is just not accurate that we hate thin people. that exercise is bad. No. If you want to engage in exercise great, if you don't scrape we would love it that we can all engage in exercise if we choose to. Next toxic positivity, that we have to love every aspect of being fat to be fat positive. Because there are there some aspects of being fat there are not super fun. Just like there are things about thin being thin that are not super fun or great or uncomfortable. So it's okay to be not blissed out on every single aspect of fatness and still enjoy your fat body. So yeah, a lot of this is just like black and white thinking. Right. Right, right, right. Right. So in case you like what Okay, well, you said a lot of like, what it is and what it's not. What actually is fat liberation. I have a post on my Instagram that just knocks us out in a few words. A fat liberation is a social justice movement created to increase the acceptance of fat bodies and seeks to ensure fat people have equal rights and access a straight size people. So nefarious, so nefarious. Yeah, I made that post because someone, someone sent me an email. They watched a video of me saying that I liked being fat. And they emailed me saying How dare you say small bodies are not attractive? Because I was like, Oh, I love you know that. I like saying the word. The phrase waves and honey, I like the waves and honey. And I was like, Well, I didn't I did not say that thin bodies are unattractive. Like unless, unless I was unconscious. And like, I know, there's no way that I would say that, because I don't believe that. But what they heard was something totally different that they drew conclusions. If I like my fatness, then therefore I must hate thin people. Therefore I must be, you know, desire thin people to become fat or desire, the well be rid of thin people. No, now, and so a lot of people will say, Well, this whole thing has just gone too far. body positivity or whatever fat liberation, I won't say that. They'll say body positivity is gone too far. We're just letting fat people be fat. And, and, you know, it's the idea of fat liberation should only be for the very smallest fat people should be only for white fat people, non disabled fat people, fat people in normative bodies, basically, fat liberation is for the most marginalized people. And we're going to bring along or everyone else along to write. And so what what makes people say that is because they see very fat people living in society. And they say those people don't deserve acceptance or kindness, because they've taken it too far. So I'm wondering your message is this is a good message, you know, not not trying to be rude message. But I know this is something that a lot of people have thought and have have tried to ask, but they like, they just maybe don't use the best words. So I thought that this was this was good, because I think a lot of people might be thinking this and you might have people in your life who might say this to you. So, hi, Vinny, I was wondering what your thoughts are on, everybody is beautiful. You can be healthy at any size, etc. which I do agree with. But then I questioned myself with my thoughts on that when I see people on TV that are so large, they can't get out of bed, or wipe their own bum, etc. So my question, and this is genuine curiosity. If I should word it differently, please tell me how is where does body positivity end and just plain poor health? Begin? what point are you quote too large or past the point of body positivity on my own on my own self love journey, and have been raised with some gnarly diet, culture, and fat shaming in my family. I'm just trying to see what this side of the world is all about. Thanks. So I reply, hello, name. Thanks for your message. So I don't prescribe to body positivity community as it stands at the moment which said It has young, thin, white women and says love your roles. What I subscribe to is fat liberation. Fat liberation says health should be accessible to everyone. Not that everyone can be healthy. Health is not possible for many folks, for many reasons. That's what people get wrong about Health at Every Size. So Health at Every Size doesn't mean people can be healthy at Every Size. It means that health should be accessible to people at any size. At every size, it's not denying that fat people can be unhealthy. It's saying no matter your size, you should be able to access treatment and engage in health promoting behaviors, or engage in the world. One thing about one thing to know about the depictions of super fat folks on TV is that it deeply that it's deeply dehumanizing. Making their lives seem like a freak show and stripping them of their humanity. If someone is super fat, do they not also deserve access to care? Of course, the answer is yes. So that means there is no one quote too large or past the point of body positivity. I meant to say fat liberation. I think to learn is stripping away health from worth, and unlearning the awful things we have been taught about people who are just quote too fat. So the question is, who is too fat to be cared for? To be a part of our society to be loved? And the answer is no one in the person responded, oh, I absolutely love that answer. That totally clears things up in my head. Thanks so much. Yeah, cuz I think I feel like people think that, you know, there's a point where should we people feel like there's a point should we quote, encourage someone to accept their body? At what weight? Should we should we switch from? Helping them accept their body to shaming their body? And what weight? Is that? Right? Again, black and white thinking, what weights do we go from? You go girl to, you need to get surgery and lose weight. And there's a there's a cut off. For many people, there's a cut off, saying, Well, you know, someone who's size 1820. Like, they're thinking what they think in their head is, well, they might not be unhealthy. That's what it is, is okay, well, maybe they can lose weight if they tried. You know, they're on the cusp of being acceptable to me. But someone who is very fat, and someone who is disabled. Well, they're just too quite quote, too far gone. They're just so committed to being unhealthy. This is how people view it. This is not the truth, right? And when we have those beliefs, and then we watch shows, like my 600 pound life, which are horrendous, please, if you're watching those shows, I know that stuff is entertaining. But if you do want to unlearn anti fatness, then stopping watching those shows would probably be helpful for you get again, you might love that love that show, you know, but really, it's only showing fat people in a very one dimensional way that they're, they're sad. They're losers. They're greedy, they're, they're subhuman. They're pathetic. They're disgusting. They're unhealthy. They're about to die. So no matter and so no wonder you, you we society would have a cut off point of when it's gone too far. Because is it right to extend kindness to people of all sizes? And in many people's view, up to a point, and then after the point, that same value that we have of being kind switches to cruelty, because we think the cruelty is going to work? I don't know. I don't know.

Vinny Welsby 59:21

Because clearly cruelty is, quote, worked to make these people thin and make anyone thin. Maybe it's worked for some people temporarily. Will has, you know, a lot of people have engaged in dieting and then obviously diets don't work. But it's kind of interesting, isn't it? And you know, it's like asking yourself like, Who do we think that we should have body autonomy? Hopefully you feel like that people that fat folks should have body autonomy, right. And who, who should we extend kind In this too, and who should have access to the world. So hopefully the next time you see a headline like, fat liberation has gone too far. You can read between the lines and decide that you are deciding to if you want to extend, extend grace and empathy to everyone, if that feels okay for you, and not say that there's a cut off, where someone loses their humanity, because that's what a lot of these these these posts and and content is saying, right? They go in with a ton of frickin stereotypes, and just just eye rolling misconceptions. And then make a point about how, like this one article that I was looking at from The Guardian was saying that fat pride is wrong, because we're making people fat. And so like, listen to this episode, and you can like, well, that's not true. That's not true. That's not true. And also, even if it was, you know, even if it was that fat people are people happen to be fatter? Can we really trace it to the fat liberation movement? And also, people having bigger bodies? Is that necessarily a bad thing? Considering we're living the longest we've ever lived? Yeah, so I'm gonna make a post with the with the things and so if there's any of this, like, if you want to round up, then go check out Instagram, there'll be a post up within the week or something. And next episode, I'm thinking because it's the all it's I see all day season is many, many religious and cultural holidays between November and January. And therefore many of us will be spending time with other humans. And because of that, I was going to do another episode on how to deal with family or people at the holidays. And then it will come out beginning of December, or whatever, sometime in December. Sound good? Sound good. All right, well, then, well, I'll see you in the next episode. If you enjoyed today's episode, and you would like to support more content, then go to KO fi, it'll be in the confi I'm gonna call it kofi, Ko fi. And you can for $5 Get the size diversity Resource Guide. There's other tiers of membership that if you'd like you can do a one off donation. Or you can do a monthly donation. If we get to a certain amount of donations, and we'll be able to get more episodes out. Currently we have enough donations for one to two episodes a month. I would love to be able to do four episodes a month like I was previously doing, but we would need your support to be able to do that. So if you appreciate the work that we're doing here at first fatty then consider going to Kofi KOF i.com. Forward slash first fatty or go to the shownotes to find that link. And thank you for being here on I'll see you in the next episode. Stay FERS fatty See you in a while I'm again Tiger bone.

Episode 180 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to The Fierce Fatty Podcast, episode 180: Being On Reality TV Almost Killed Me. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:24

you remember that TV show? Bullseye. If you're British, you remember it. 100 AJ, that's today's episode 180. Show shownotes facebook.com forward slash 180. For links for the things I'm going to be talking about. Not that many links because it's, I'm talking about me. So four years ago, I was on a BBC documentary, quote unquote, documentary, reality TV. So in 2019, the program is called, Who are you calling fat? Who are you calling fat? So if you want to go and watch it, I don't know where you can. I, it's not safe for me to google it myself and find a link or whatever. But if you find it, whatever, just go watch it or not.

Unknown Speaker 1:32

Whatever. But anyway, so that's what we're talking about today. I spoken about it previously, kind of in episodes, but not really. I'm gonna be sharing a lot today, and I'm feeling really vulnerable. Oh. And the reason why I'm doing this now is that because in therapy and my therapy, the, the amount of times I keep going back to this frickin program, and how it still fucking me up after four years, and I'm just like, I'm so frustrated with it. I feel frustrated with my brain, like, God, just move on. It was four years ago. And you know what my therapist was like, well, it goes to show how traumatizing it was for you. Right? And I was like, yeah. Yeah, because I wasn't really traumatized from it, then, four years later, I still wouldn't be you know, having dreams about it and having bad dreams about it and ruminating on it and, and whatnot. Anyway, and so what what we kind of came down to is that I'm feeling a shit ton of shame. And you know, what happens with shame. Shame is kind of secretive it it keeps you not connected to community.

Unknown Speaker 3:03

And shame cannot survive the light. I think that's a Brene Brown, quote, shame cannot survive the light. So I thought I, you know, I'm going to talk about it today, in talk about the things that are so painful for me that, up until this week, I couldn't even touch I couldn't look at. I have recordings from myself talking about the experience around that time. And even just knowing that they exist, where I'm talking about my feelings from that time is so painful. I couldn't look at it. But that's what I've been doing the last couple of weeks is looking at this stuff and kind of, you know, doing it in a way that's safe for me like this is not too much for me. It's not like I'm going to spiral into something. But it's also helping me share it with you. So thank you for being my therapy with me today.

Unknown Speaker 4:00

I'm going to tell you the inner workings of a reality TV show what goes behind the filming what's in the contract, how much I got paid the aftermath, did it make my business explode, what happened? Etc, etc. So huge here on trigger trigger warning for today's episode, because we're talking about some big stuff, some really kind of difficult emotions, also. suicide ideation. I'm going to tell you specifically when I get I'm going to play you a clip from me talking about my suicide ideation. And I'm going to tell you to skip forward a certain amount. If you don't want to hear, you know, me describing what my brain is saying to me. So if you want to listen to the episode and just skip over that bit, then I'll let you know when it's coming up. But if you feel like you're not in a good headspace, and talking about shame and despair, and suicide ideation is not good for you is not going to be helpful. It's going to be dangerous. Please skip this episode, and we'll see you in the next episode. Please take care of yourself. But again, I will warn you when this stuff comes up if you want to skip it, or you can just listen if it feels like it, you know, it feels good for you.

Unknown Speaker 5:27

So, yeah, and if you are having those types of thoughts of suicide ideation, then please reach out to someone. Even if you just Google. If you just Google suicide, immediately a number will come up and you can call them or just tell someone in your life. Okay, so the program was seen by 2.4 million viewers it was it was a two part program, a two part documentary, and a description of the program. I am looking at my neighbor's dog called Bella and she's she's running around playing with Teddy's thanks for being light hearted Bella. And when they steal these dog stuff, we're talking about Bella's, like prancing around with a teddy bear. Also, she loves humping anything.

Unknown Speaker 6:17

She loves having a good old wank. Many, many times a day. I mean, we should all really just, you know, just go around ranking and stuff. Yeah. Anyway, so a description of the program. This is written by the production company. This is a serious documentary project bring an eight to nine people to live together in a house in Oxfordshire in 2019. All the participants are people who are a word living with Oh word who or who self identify as fat. They will have various and sometimes conflicting opinions about a range of issues affecting their own bodies and how Oh word Oh, Word and fat people are viewed by society. As a group live together, they will discuss a wide range of subjects affecting how people living with affect people, affecting people living with extra weight, they will also take part in a number of activities both inside and outside the house, meaning suggested by themselves, that will shed light additional light on the subject. This is not a weight loss program. Instead, it aims to give a voice to a section of society that is often discussed but rarely heard. Okay, so if you heard that you would probably be like, Oh, this sounds interesting. They have people in there who identify as fat. So that's kind of cool. And also people who are identify as Oh, word wishes, that's less cool. But, you know, there might be some fun things in them. So before we get into, like, what exactly happened, how they approached me all that type of stuff, I want to start with understanding about the issues with reality TV and suicide. So I'm going to be reading an article here from The Guardian. By Yomi adegoke Key, why suicide is still the shadow that hangs over reality TV. So this article is from 2020. And since then, we've had more suicides from reality TV.

Unknown Speaker 8:13

So the things that they're talking about here, it's you know, even more has happened so okay, for several years, linking the link in the bio in the show notes in the show notes rather. For several years, the suicide of contestants who compete on reality TV shows has cast a dark shadow on the genre. Competitors of The Bachelor Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, the voice and Gordon Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares have all taken their own lives. And just days ago, the suicide of Hannah Kim Kim Euro, a 22 year old former cast member of the on the Netflix Japanese reality TV series series, Tara's house shocked fans. Kimura had suffered a huge amount of harassment and abuse online. Inevitably, focus will shift on to how much support the contestants on The shows are offered by producers to deal with the negative attention that follow their appearances. Many hope her passing will serve as a painful Eye Opener a teachable moment. Even though this is a lesson we should have learned many times over. This is something that has happened before and if little changes is likely to happen again.

Unknown Speaker 9:22

According to one newspaper report last year, there have been 38 deaths by suicide of reality TV contestants, one of the most harrowing cases was of an 11 year old star Neha Sawant, who killed herself following her appearance on the Indian dance competition Boogie Woogie. The story was published before one of the most high profile deaths had occurred. The tragic death of love Island presenter Caroline Flack earlier this year, which has become the catalyst for the current conversation on mental health and reality television

Unknown Speaker 10:00

Aside from the lives tragically lost, there are many contestants who go on to suffer a roof and revocable damage to their mental health. ex lover Islander, Alex Miller revealed that he had felt suicidal after leaving the show. Big brother 10 Contestant three, Desiree was rushed to hospital after he was evicted from the house to booze and had self harmed. Eerily. This was nearly identical to what happened to a previous winner, Nadia Almada after she returned to the show for the Ultimate Big Brother series, and was hospitalized less than a week afterwards. Oh, Nadia was a one that was saying about the lady garden woman. I was naughty what she was the trans one. Anyway, I'll google that on my own time. This is by no means a new issue issue. Rather it is one who has been largely ignored. The suffering of contestants has been brushed aside due in part to a snide type of victim blaming that is specific to reality TV. A persistent public view remains that those who are cast in these programs are quote, fair game. Any vicious or abusive befalls them in the aftermath is their fault by virtue of having opted to take part it has meant that the duty of care that is owed by the shows to those who take part has been overlooked. The aftercare on several shows appears to be non existent, and the psychiatric evaluations that take place ahead of casting have been widely criticized. Even the deaths of love Island contestants might make phallus eaters 26 and 2019. And Sophie gradam 32 in 2018. did not drive home how persistent a problem this problem is. The this is it took the apparent suicide of Jeremy Kyle guest Jeremy Kyle is a British talk so kind of like Jerry Springer,

Unknown Speaker 11:51

where they do DNA tests and stuff. It took the apparent suicide of Jeremy cargas Steve diamond, who had failed a lie detector test on the show lie detector tests are bullshit by the way to prompt the long overdue government inquiry on the link between reality TV shows and suicide just as cameras death has led to Japanese government officials calling for action against cyber bullying. Diamonds death resulted in The Jeremy Kyle show being taken off the air a decision that please many as it confused love Island is still a feature on our screens. Despite three deaths out of 100 or so contestants in the space of three years, three deaths in three years on love Island.

Unknown Speaker 12:30

In the wake of this ITV announced new duty of care diet guidelines which out outline that that contestants will be provided with psychological consultation throughout the series and will receive proactive contact from show representatives for 14 months after leaving the series. Well, what you'll hear about this proactive contact from the show is not was not helpful for me and the psychologist was harmful to me. So these guidelines and not helpful.

Unknown Speaker 13:04

It also offered bespoke training on dealing with social media and advice on financial finance, finance and adjusting to life back home. Less than a year after the new guidelines were published. Flack had taken her own life. It is too simplistic to condemn this issue as a love Island problem, a Jeremy Kyle problem or a terrace house problem. The banning of one particularly hateful or hyper visible show does not rid us of the societal Scout Scout urges, scourges that may continue to these untimely contribute to these untimely deaths such as a culture of bullying online, and the lack of accessibility to mental health services. They're missing something really important. They're the behavior of a production companies. Abolishing the genre altogether, we will not end self harming young people it is impossible and wrong to attribute suicide to a single event in people's lives. But it is impossible to ignore how the fame that reality TV provides.

Unknown Speaker 13:57

Ignore how the fame that reality TV provides combined with a lack of crucial care for those involved makes a possibly dangerous situation potentially deadly. Although some programs are taking steps to better safeguard contestants, producers cannot wait until the next strategy to make much needed changes. That was from The Guardian. Yeah, so this is not just something that happened to me this has happened to many people. And obviously we hear about the people who

Unknown Speaker 14:25

successfully die by suicide successfully as in they managed to complete what they were doing.

Unknown Speaker 14:34

And we don't hear about the many others who get close to it. So if three people have died, what percentage of those people other people have have been suffering as well? So how this happened in April 2019 I got an email from a production company. So what happens is the BBC whoever they will pay a production company that

Unknown Speaker 15:00

is a separate entity to make a program, either they pay for it or the production company, make it and then sell it to whoever So, or I'm sure there's other things that like that happen. But you know other ways it happens, but in this case a BBC have,

Unknown Speaker 15:16

have have paid them paying them already. So this production company, email me, they sent a really good email they had researched me, they were using the correct language.

Unknown Speaker 15:30

They told me about what they had done before, they were an award winning

Unknown Speaker 15:36

production company with a beloved TV show, but loved across a world

Unknown Speaker 15:43

that they had created. And so my expectations were really high. My expectations as well, because it's it was created by the BBC. Even higher, right? The BBC, it's not going to be in my mind this trashy kind of, you know, Jeremy cow type of thing. And the fact that they were, they were talking about using reasoning and the correct language, and they were like, we're really interested in you.

Unknown Speaker 16:10

And so we had a chat on the, on the phone with them. And then I had a chat over Skype. And then I talked to another producer, producer, and they were just loving it, they were just like, Yes, this is amazing. This is so needed, like, you know, this is what people need to hear. And you will your message is so impactful. Or they were just really big me up and just making me feel like, Oh, they're really into this. They're going to show the, you know, the dissenters in regards to the people who hate that people who are going to be on the show.

Unknown Speaker 16:47

But really, they're liberal minded, they're forward thinking they think that fat liberation is a good thing. This is the the, the feeling that I got, right. So they then that was April 2019. And they asked if I was going to be available in June, which is when they were planning on filming. So in May, I was shortlisted, they said we were shortlisted confirm the dates of filming. And then I signed paperwork and gave them my ID and all that type of stuff. They also told me that I needed to meet with a therapist, for a quote, Psych test, to chat through filming, and the overall experience a psych test. All right, they've built this up this incredible award winning production company who are working with the BBC, we just need you to talk to this therapist for a test. Okay, so with that language, what do you think people are going to be going into that test with? Are they going to be disclosing all sorts of things to that therapist? Or are they going to be saying things that gets them on to the show? Me, I was just totally honest, I, you know, told her told her my history,

Unknown Speaker 18:12

you know, told her that

Unknown Speaker 18:16

everything that you know about me about my history, with, with abuse, with being homeless, with hating myself with PTSD with

Unknown Speaker 18:26

etc, etc, right. But at that, at that, at that time, had been in therapy for years. And I was a very stable person with access to mental health resources in my, in my therapist, right. So I was confident that, you know, I might have had a past of, you know, shit stuff in my life. But, you know, I was, I was resilient. So that was my take, but I wonder how many other people that who go to this psych test, like, oh, no, no, I've never struggled with anything. And they're actually like, currently suicidal or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 19:01

So this therapist specializes in talking to production companies about mental health. So a quote from from this therapist website, I have an in depth understanding of the needs of the program makers and the pressures of working or repairing in programs or films, the needs of the program makers. So she's basically on the side of the production company. I aim to respond rapidly, rapidly, and with observations and insights that contribute to a successful production. I'm fully engaged fully in helping to drive forward an area that is essential to responsible program making. Okay, so she is saying on our website about you know, we need to be we need to meet there's guidelines that they have to follow right and so, this person is working for the production company, they are not working for the contributors or

Unknown Speaker 20:00

contestants have a show. Right? They're not.

Unknown Speaker 20:06

They're not your person unit, they're not on your side, right? They're there as a service to the production company. So I quote, pass the test, or whatever the language was, I got an A star. And then we had more calls, then

Unknown Speaker 20:25

in June, so we've So April, May, June, so for two months, and this is intense, right? This is back and forth with so much. So in June, the producer flew from London to Ireland. So I'm in Ireland at this point, living with my mum, so I'd gone to Ireland. At that point, like six months earlier, I was planning on staying for six months, this came up and I was like, ah, you know, I'll just hang around for a little longer hang. And so the program comes out in November in 2019. What then happens

Unknown Speaker 21:00

2020 20 And everything closes down. And so then I'm stuck in Ireland for another year. and Ireland, it's nice to you know, just go and stay with my mum I at that point I hadn't hadn't lived with with my mum since I was 16 years old. So it was like a nice experience to

Unknown Speaker 21:18

live with my mum for a bit. And she lives in a nice place in rural Ireland. But it was rural Ireland. And it was very isolating. I didn't have I normally live in Vancouver, Canada, I didn't have my normal support network around me. And even though I could talk to friends on the phone, it's not the same rate. It's not the same. And the same freedoms of being in Vancouver where I walk out my door, and immediately I'm in community and have access to all sorts of things. So anyway, so producer came to dairy, and we had lunch.

Unknown Speaker 21:53

And then that afternoon, I was confirmed to be on the show. So I guess she flew to dairy, to have lunch with me as a kind of like, Is this a real person? Like, you know, I don't know. Just test it. You know, one more thing like, am I a human.

Unknown Speaker 22:08

And all of these people I'm talking to got on with great, really great conversations really interesting. Next, I asked my my doctor to sign off on my health status. It's called a statement of health. I told my doctor wasn't my doctor, it was just a doctor at the health clinic that I was that was near my mom's house, they'd never met me before. I said, I just need you to sign this thing to say that you're okay with me going on the show. The doctor was like, I've got to be honest, reality TV, I've seen people come back and it's really affected them. And I was like, Oh, well, that's not going to be me. I'm really resilient. I'm in therapy has been for years. I know what to expect. And what I expect is that general public is going to be really fat phobic. But that's okay. Because the people who need to hear my message, they'll hear it. And that will do good in the world. Right? I've dealt with trolls online for years at this point. And he said to you Sure. And I was like, What does he know?

Unknown Speaker 23:08

This, you know, this, he was an old guy in rural Ireland. How would he know about what it's like to be on, you know, to have a social media following and, and go on TV show? Well, obviously, he must have had seen a couple of people. In his surgery where this has happened.

Unknown Speaker 23:27

Even though, you know, someone could have come to me and said, I went on a reality TV show, and it was terrible for me, I would have been like, wow, you're probably a decade. You know, I'm a nice person. I'm a good person. You know, I don't like that black and white thinking of good and bad. But you know,

Unknown Speaker 23:45

I know that I'm not going to do anything that is is going to harm me, you know.

Unknown Speaker 23:51

So anyway, the DGP sale, signs up.

Unknown Speaker 23:56

Then a film crew comes to my mom's house and they do backstory filming. So they fill me in your home and they filmed me

Unknown Speaker 24:05

on the beach with my dog and they filmed me talking to clients. They filmed me at the local leisure Center, I'd go to aqua aerobics with all the old ladies. It was really fun.

Unknown Speaker 24:18

And they were just fucking loving it. They were just like, oh my god, a TV crew. Oh, you're gonna be a celebrity. And I was like, Oh, wow. You know, think it was funny. Then I had to do genetic testing. You're like, what the fuck genetic testing. It was a part of a bit that they were going to do. It's not that they needed to do genetic testing on me but they were going to do they were they had a doctor come in who were saying that fatness is not fatness is more complex than what we think and that people have genes that predispose them to fat there. So I went and did this genetic testing.

Unknown Speaker 24:52

Really short notice, blah, blah, blah and managed to get it to them on time. I signed the contract and now we have

Unknown Speaker 25:00

have an official contract, I'm going to tell you what was in the contract shortly.

Unknown Speaker 25:06

They also asked family or friend friends to join on the last day of filming to have like a knees up on the last day kind of come together and see what the family think. My family, my immediate family didn't want to do it. And so then I asked my aunt and uncle and one of my cousins, and they came because they live near

Unknown Speaker 25:27

more calls for production. They audited my social media, so they went through everything I've ever posted to see if there's anything, you know, see if I'm a secret, you know, beggar or something, there's something on there that was going to be terrible for them.

Unknown Speaker 25:43

And also, they looked to see if there was anything where people could identify my location. And so that was the only thing that they found was a couple of posts where someone could maybe look in the background and find out where I was, which was I talking to this person who does does that audit, I was just flabbergasted. They were like, Yeah, someone could see a pole in the sky was with some trees and see that identifying piece of information and then find out where you live. And I was just like, oh, so I don't know if you've ever noticed I don't really post much on social media about my personal life. You know, post I don't like if I go to an event, I only post afterwards I don't post before. Because I have a thing about you know, I think about safety because I know other fat liberationists have been in danger before.

Unknown Speaker 26:35

Like people following them and follow them around a supermarket looking at what's in their cart and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so in the contract, basically, you were going to be at the location and they are we are entitled to film you at any time of the day or night. You're you are not allowed to film, you are not allowed to have your phone. You are you have to immerse your you're required to immerse yourself fully in the experience. You are not allowed to talk to anyone about the show your use the petition may or may You not You're not allowed to disclose to the general public, any information about about you about the filming you they say that we're going to arrange for you to view the program before it goes out, and shall consider in good faith. Any comments you have about the program, which you believe is factually inaccurate. Also, I'm not allowed to participate in any programs similar to the program for one year. I'm not allowed to be on any other program without their written without their consent, their approval. They own the rights throughout the universe. It's so funny, they use the word universe, I guess well wasn't enough, you know, just in case we go to Mars, you know, they own the rights in the universe for ever. And I will not make money from the program.

Unknown Speaker 28:06

I'm not allowed to talk to talk about the production company or the show ever without their permission to any person or company or to the public in any media whatsoever. And you can be terminated at any time. So how much money did I get for all of this agreeing to that contract and all of the legwork beforehand and then 10 days of filming flying to the UK, doing this whole thing being a contributor. I got the ground some of 00 pounds $0 Nothing. Because they say Well, it's the BBC and the BBC doesn't pay

Unknown Speaker 28:51

because that would be unethical

Unknown Speaker 28:54

to ever go.

Unknown Speaker 28:56

Because it would be so the actual filming.

Unknown Speaker 29:01

The night before we all stayed in different hotels. We like the contestants are contributors I called us contributors. And they were they were taken to the house. So I was a third one in the house after one. So the first person to arrive was a fat positive person. And then we had a guy who had done stomach amputation.

Unknown Speaker 29:22

And then this guy who'd done the summer cavitation and everyone thought was creepy and annoying. And then I came in and we happen to be also from the home same hometown.

Unknown Speaker 29:32

Anyway so that first day everyone arrived and we sat around the kitchen table table and filmed for hours. I just want you to like imagine one meeting new people just in a meeting eight new people meeting people that you know are fat phobic being filmed meeting those people being filmed having conversations about how they think that fatness is horrible

Unknown Speaker 30:00

Like the stress of being in a new place, staying in a hotel, then going to a new and finding, you know, then we went in to find our rooms, like, imagine like the stress levels, right? So it's like a high stress environment. And so when when you're like in a high stress environment, think of all the things that you do to go and relax, right? You go home, and, you know, go and watch some Netflix and be by yourself, whatever it is that you do to relax, but we had no way to really relax. This was 24/7 constant. We cannot you don't have that time away. Even though sometimes you feel like you just have to sit in having a relaxing conversation with someone. And then you're like, oh, yeah, I'm miked up, and oh, yeah, I see a camera like, being COVID. Over there filming us. Oh, yeah, this isn't private. So first off, you're really aware that you have a mic on and you're really aware that there's cameras there. It was weird, right? It was like, what? Why are you filming? Right? And there's loads of cameras, there's not just one camera, they have lots of different people. But soon enough, it became more normal. And it became like the people who were the camera operators and the people who were there are people there taking notes. And it just felt like they were friends, right? Because they just were like hanging out with you. And you'd go go to the bedroom, and they'd come into the bedroom with you. And I'm like, awesome. What do you think about so and so said that and you'll be like, oh, yeah, that was fucked up, or whatever. And so you just be hanging out with them and chatting? They would because they weren't able to. It wasn't like they were asking questions on camera themselves. You were reacting to the questions. And you had to say your statement, like they hadn't asked you a question. So if they were like, well, what do you think of ABC? You'd have to reply and be like, Well, what do you think of ABC is, so it could just be a standalone thing. And so when they when you were talking about things that they wanted to hear, they would behind the camera be nodding their head and being like, like, silently like, yeah, keep going, like, Yeah, we love this stuff. And so if you're like, Yeah, we think I think it's really important that fat people are treated well. And they're like, yeah, yeah, that's amazing. And so you felt safe talking to that person, because you you're like, I know that they agree with me, I know that they are hearing all of the fat phobic shit downstairs. And they're like, What the fuck? You know, this is what you know, that sense of safety that they're trying to create with you.

Unknown Speaker 32:22

So you're always filmed? They film you're brushing your teeth, and you're like, really? Well.

Unknown Speaker 32:28

Why do you need this footage? This is

Unknown Speaker 32:32

invasive and boring, but they gotta get it. They cannot be you know, they get in trouble if you manage to escape from them. I'm going to sneak away somewhere and they've not managed to follow you because there's nine people in the house right and, and this house was really big. It was like this mansion type thing. It's not a mansion, but it's like a really nice big house, you know, maybe like eight bedrooms or something. I'm not that many because we shared but anyway and a pool and it was nice. And so it was a big it was a big area for them. And they didn't have one camera operator per person.

Unknown Speaker 33:06

And they had camera people working 24 hours a day. So throughout the night, if we happen to get up and something happened, they were there. They would be knocking on the door in the morning saying Can we come in we need to start filming high stress environments no respite. Everyday we did an activity picked by one of the people in the house

Unknown Speaker 33:26

and the people who hated their fat bodies the activities were snow as well as the boring it was all just like shame you about having a fat body and how your sofa can disgusting. And then the fat people or in the fact that fat people who liked ourselves guess what we did fun things like we went to karaoke, we went out and had a buffet we are one of the guys got us all outfits and we did a fashion shoot. We did fattier Olympics where none of the people who hated themselves or hate fatness would play with us. And so all the happy fat people were just playing with me. We did stand for self love, which was going and blindfolding yourself standing in the city center with a bikini on or swimsuit, whatever. And then letting people right in your body. It's just you know, shame versus joy. Right. So, but saying that we had differing views, but we all got on, right? We were all everyone was very respectful of each other. We laugh we bonded. We bonded over the fact that there was one cast member who was a knob right we'd, it was it was like even the crew, the production crew would be looking at us and smiling when he'd go off or he'd go off and just like say all sorts of awful things, misogynistic and creepy things. And the you know, you'd be looking at the people around you and the crew would just be like smiling and laughing because this guy was so creepy. So I was you know, even at that I was saying to them, oh, we're not going to

Unknown Speaker 35:00

They're not gonna have a lot of material because you know, you want to see a fight. You want to see some scandal you want to see, you know, something, but we were like, well, they've got this one guy who is behaving terribly. thing is he wasn't behaving terribly about the topic of fatness he was just being creepy. He was just a creepy, weird guy. That was inappropriate, right? And even one of even like, the top production person came to me one time and she was like, someone around me like, can you believe what he's wearing? Because he was wearing the wearing a shirt with a picture of a sexual predator on it.

Unknown Speaker 35:37

She's like, I can't believe it's what? What does he think it you like? Like, yeah, he's, he's fucking weird. Anyway, so we were like, Oh, I wonder if this is even gonna be successful, because we'll go on, you know. And that was one kind of one falling out. One kind of

Unknown Speaker 36:01

one of the people got upset because I said, I had more privilege in my body. And because I have a smaller body than someone else. And she was like, Oh, she thought that I meant I was saying, I'm better looking. And she's like, How dare you say that you have privilege. And I was like, what? And so she left the table and started crying. Because she thought I was saying I'm really good looking because she didn't understand what privilege meant. Anyway, so that was the only thing and you know, what they did? Is they dubbed in

Unknown Speaker 36:31

she left the table. And you hear oh, no, don't leave. That was that was not my voice. They, they dumped it in. And they made a fake. They're fake. It was fake. And the other one was, so I cried twice during the production. So So you know, we got on with high stress, high stress. But there wasn't really that much drama. The only drama was so I shared a room with a fat positive person and someone who really, really hated themselves. And so anyway, one of the days we went dancing, which, you know, surprise, surprise was a an activity from a happy fat person.

Unknown Speaker 37:10

And Babs, her name was Babs the person who shared a room with I shared with Babs and I shared with Courtney Courtney, who was happy in fact,

Unknown Speaker 37:20

we went dancing, Babs really struggled because there was a mirror and she was crying. And she was like, this is traumatic for me. Anyway, so we got back to the house. I went and saw Courtney. I think Courtney Courtney wasn't there. Right. I think Courtney wasn't there because you had a sore leg or something. Anyway, so Courtney said I had to go and I said it was really fun. It was really hard for Babs, she was traumatized by it. She didn't have fun. But I was in the in the bathroom. And she heard me say Babs was really traumatized by it. She didn't have fun. And she took offense to this. I don't know why. But she did. You know, because she, she was even saying, this is this is traumatizing for me, and I'm really having fun. And she was crying and stuff. Anyway, so I came up. Later in the day, I came up and she was in the bedroom filming. And I was like, Hey, how's it go? And she's like, actually, you know, I'm really annoyed with you. And I said, Okay, why is that? And she said, Because you said I was traumatized by the

Unknown Speaker 38:20

by the dancing. And I was like, Oh, well, you were one you kind of thing. This is not word for word. This is you know, from what I'm remembering. Right?

Unknown Speaker 38:31

And she was like, Yeah, and I was like, I you know, I just really wish that I could.

Unknown Speaker 38:37

I was basically like, I'm really sorry that you feel bad in your body. And I wish that I could wave a magic wand and you not feel so ashamed of yourself. And she was like, I don't want you to wave a magic wand. I don't like being fat. I mean, I look at I look at Courtney, in you know, walking around, in in her bikini and I just think it's you know, it's really disgusting. And my husband, his body is disgusting. And I was like,

Unknown Speaker 39:04

Oh, my fucking in my brain. I was like, uh, you literally saying on camera, your husband, his body is disgusting. She's saying all sorts of other stuff, like mean stuff about both of them, saying how she's looking at Courtney's body and saying, you know, saying all these awful things. And I was like, you know, well, I don't know how the conversation ended. But anyway, the conversation ended. So then later that day, I was like, oh, I need to tell Courtney this that perhaps isn't safe. Because, you know, Courtney was just being happy and fun and thinking about was supporting her. But Babs was, you know, actually saying really mean things about her. And so I was like, Okay, I'm gonna find Courtney bend when the cameras aren't there. So I did. I found her outside putting up a happy birthday sign for someone. And I was like, Courtney.

Unknown Speaker 39:58

I've got to tell you that

Unknown Speaker 40:00

back to saying this and she was like what the fuck? Thank you so much for telling me I can't believe that. What we didn't know because the camera

Unknown Speaker 40:08

is a sneaky motherfuckers they were inside and and they had us on mic, but they were filming like through a window. And so they they caught me on camera telling her. So Courtney was didn't want to speak to Babs and

Unknown Speaker 40:23

and then Babs her reaction was, oh, well, Vinnie has told you this, therefore it's been his fault. And so Babs came downstairs flying downstairs, in front of everyone. We're just about to leave to go to karaoke, and was an threatened me and said something like, don't you ever talk about me ever again. And I was thinking, well, that's not gonna happen. We're on a TV show where we talk about each other. And so I was just like, okay, and just walked away. And I was like, walked into a different room. And then like, the two fat positive people came was like, What the fuck? What? What is what? Why would she say that to you? And you know, it was so awkward and, and so we went, it wasn't a comedy night we went to it was like a, we went to a comedy show. Karaoke, went to a comedy show. Anyway, later in the evening, I you know, I don't like the tension. So, you know, I spoke to Babs and I cried, and I was like, Oh, how bad was that? I was really, you know, I felt really upset about that. And she was like, Yeah, I fucked up. I'm really sorry. Whatever. Guess what? They didn't show that they did that show. Babs threatening me knew?

Unknown Speaker 41:30

Did they show me me crying? Nero. Hmm.

Unknown Speaker 41:36

Next, the other time I cried is, is

Unknown Speaker 41:39

we did what's called a master interview. So everyone does one.

Unknown Speaker 41:45

And it's at the end of your time filming. And what happens is you go into a room,

Unknown Speaker 41:51

we happen to be in like a pool room, it's very kind of tight quarters. And everything's set up and you sit in a chair, and you've got the light the lights on you. And you have to look directly into the camera, which has a series of mirrors, that would show you the eyes of the producer asking you questions.

Unknown Speaker 42:11

And so the master interview is basically to get everything that they haven't got so far, and to go over everything that they've already asked you so far, and it goes on for fucking ages. And so

Unknown Speaker 42:28

you have to constantly stare directly into the camera. Now when I talk, I like looking around. If you if you watch the podcast on YouTube, you'll notice that I hardly ever look into the camera because that's just not my style is you know, I like thinking and my look at my look around. Like most humans, you know, most humans is not I'm not going to be staring directly into the into a little light and a series of mirrors looking into one person's eyes, like a little square just looking into their eyes. While they ask you super invasive questions while they're trying and get a reaction from you.

Unknown Speaker 43:08

And get a kind of like a ha moment we got them. So you know, when you're watching a documentary or whatever this is when you know,

Unknown Speaker 43:16

they they've got a scammer. And the scammer has agreed to an interview and you know, the interview will start nice. And at the end, by the end, I confront them because they know that they're probably going to walk off. So that's what the master interview is about. Right? And so they were asking me really invasive, inappropriate questions. And I was level headed. And I was like, I'm not gonna walk off, I'm not going to give them the satisfaction of having me stand up and say and take my mic off. You know, that famous, the famous, you know, like, I'm leaving type of thing, because I didn't want them to have that kind of like, yeah, we've got them. We've got them. We showed them what we showed the world what they really like.

Unknown Speaker 43:54

And, you know, they were really needling me about really painful, tight times in my life. They asked me one question, which was Would you rather be disabled or non disabled? And I was like,

Unknown Speaker 44:07

I'm not asking that. I'm not answering that question. That's fucking fucked up. ableist question on what the hell? And they said, Come on, answer it. No, I'm not asked No. Come on, come on. Like it was. Bananas Come on, even when time the producer said still gonna ruin your career if you answer the question, like so manipulative. And then they were like, Okay, well, we'll go on to another subject. So tell us about your dad that's alcoholic, tell us about you know, how much money do you make? What's in your bank account? You know? And then what? So, answer that question. Eventually they get me to say, I'm not answering that question in a stern tone. This is after like, hours, literally hours, right.

Unknown Speaker 44:55

So when I finished that interview, I walked out of the pool house and burst into tears.

Unknown Speaker 45:00

It was exactly like my abusive ex years ago who would interrogate me. And there was nothing that I could say that would satiate their questions. And then they would twist my words and use them against me. And it was really inappropriate and cruel. And, you know, that's when like, the trust is broken with the production team, because you know what we did with this one guy? Because he was just, yeah, that's what it was so triggering for me, because I was like, That's exactly and if you've ever been in an abusive relationship, when that person just won't let you leave, it's just needling you, asking you questions asking you questions, and no matter what you say, they're not getting the reaction that they want. It's, it's really inappropriate. Okay, so that was a filming.

Unknown Speaker 45:47

We we left went home, oh, my goodness, I wonder what's going to be like, it's probably going to be good. I can't wait to see you know, when we see this one guy, kind of realizing that he's inappropriate. That's probably what's going to happen.

Unknown Speaker 46:01

So beginning of October, so we filmed in what did when did we film June?

Unknown Speaker 46:08

So beginning of October, they flew me to London to view the episodes. So I watched the episodes back to back where we, you know, we had a break, and we had over one, one day later, I said, can I talk to their therapist, I am going to play you recordings of me talking about what was happening at that time. Okay, so this, this, this is from October the ninth. So within a week, this is kind of like how I was feeling the show wasn't even out. By the way. By the way, by the way. Before we listen to this, this was before I had come out as non binary, trans non binary. And my name was Victoria. And I was using she her pronouns. And so if you hear Victoria and she her, that was because it was before.

Unknown Speaker 46:59

Before that, and also, all the clips, there's a couple of I think there's one or two times where I use an ableist word, CRA Z, Y,

Unknown Speaker 47:10

Z, look at me, I'm so North American Zed, y. And so there's, I think there's one or two, one instance of that, and I, yeah, so heads up on that, for that ableism from me, these videos were never recorded, thinking that no one would ever see them. So this was not I this is not meant to be for anyone.

Unknown Speaker 47:33

This is private, right? But I'm sharing it with you. So I'm feeling so much shame. I'm feeling so much shame. Anyway. Okay, so this is my reaction. After seeing the show in London. I went to London last week to see the TV show. And I had a lot of feelings. I've been going through like a roller coaster of emotion. When I saw it. I wrote down lots of notes and stuff. And

Unknown Speaker 48:00

I was like,

Unknown Speaker 48:02

I kind of come across as villainous. Like, I'm the I'm the villain in this. And they're like, no, no, you're not not the villain. And,

Unknown Speaker 48:15

but there was good things like at the end of like watching the both of the two episodes and like chatting with one of the producers. I was I wrote down a note to remind myself about how I was feeling then and I was feeling like, this is a good program, it's going to make people laugh, it's going to make people cry. And it's going to have a positive impact for fat, the fat community. And, and then in the watts, we have a WhatsApp group with all the other contributors, which is what we call the people who are in it. And

Unknown Speaker 48:49

one, so I was the second to see the girl that saw it first. She was like, yeah, no one looks bad or anything, you know, it's fine. And then I spoke to I called up another person. And I was like, I think I'm the villain in this. And she she was like, yeah, the person who sort of first text me privately and said, Victoria is the villain in this, but she didn't tell me. And I was like, I thought I was the villain. And then

Unknown Speaker 49:19

someone the people who were anti fat, they didn't really say much about me being the villain. They'll probably like yeah, of course you are. And then

Unknown Speaker 49:28

the

Unknown Speaker 49:31

the other pro fat person, he's like, Yeah, you're a villain. You're a villain in it, but you've got redeeming qualities. You can see the redeeming qualities. And then the final pro fat person saw it and she was like, No, you're not a villain at all.

Unknown Speaker 49:46

You're just fabulous and stuff. And anyway, so in the meantime, like the day after, and then like send it letting it marinate and then I have like a nightmare about

Unknown Speaker 49:59

something

Unknown Speaker 50:00

has to do with

Unknown Speaker 50:02

I can't remember was but something. Honestly, it wasn't that traumatic, like bad consequences of all this. So I emailed, I emailed the producers already said, I want you to take out a couple of lines that I didn't like, but I, because they, they everything's out of context, right. And so you don't know, you don't have any backstory to anything. So I asked him to take out a couple of lines that I felt uncomfortable about, and they did. And then I asked them to

Unknown Speaker 50:30

accurately portray a scene, which they'd really like.

Unknown Speaker 50:36

Not they. So there's a scene where this guy comes in, he has diabetes. And

Unknown Speaker 50:43

so

Unknown Speaker 50:44

one of the other contributors says, Oh, we've got a guy coming in to talk to us about diabetes, and how, you know, we're all gonna get diabetes. He didn't say that, but that's what we inferred. And one girl like, ran off crying, because she was like, Oh, this is this is all I've got in my whole life is that I'm gonna get diabetes, and I'm not comfortable with this. And the other fat people were like, the pro fat people were like, we're not sure about this, is he going to be really Shamy. And I was like, Listen, I need to protect my mental health. And so if he's going to be really shame me and

Unknown Speaker 51:17

food moralizing, then I don't necessarily want to hear that. And so we said, Okay, we'll come and one of the girls didn't come, will come for as long as he's not shaming. And so we go, and then we sit for probably about half an hour listening to his story. He had diabetes that he ignored for 20 years. And because he ignored it, he had to have his leg amputated. And so, and then he starts saying, you know, fat people, we just love it, and the cakes and the pies. And all we do is we eat chips and all this stuff. And then after a little bit of that I said, Thank you so much, Colin, for sharing your story with us, I'm just going to step out. So what you see is,

Unknown Speaker 52:01

you see Colin coming in, and, you know, this is a diabetic guy. You see Colin coming in. And then the show is 50% me, even though there's like nine people in the house is, is really focused on me. And then you see Colin saying his story. And what you can't see is that Colin is like, sir, like this, and so I have to have my head turned like this. And to see him, and it looks like I'm like, you know, can't be bothered to listen to him. And I'm like, really bored. And, you know, fuck this guy. And then they, and so he's like, oh, you know, telling his story. And it's very, you know, touching and stuff like that. And then it's shots to me of being like, you know, and then they get a shot of me rolling my eyes. And I think I probably rolled my eyes, obviously, I roll my eyes at the bit where he was talking about food. And it's that, you know, cuts to him being like, you know, and it's hard having diabetes, and it cuts to me being like,

Unknown Speaker 53:01

what like this, and I'm like, that's not accurate. And then he's talking about something else. Nice, you know, not offensive, and then I leave. And anyway, I'm like,

Unknown Speaker 53:13

this isn't true. Like you have this same encounter in us. But there's standards that journalists have to adhere to, when reporting that it has to be factual. And it can't just be made up, like, you know, how reality shows or just couldn't do things. And I was like, this is like, really not accurate at all. And then I Oh, well, we'll look at it.

Unknown Speaker 53:39

So I went from like, Oh, my God, I'm the villain to maybe I'm not the villain to maybe I look good, too. They've changed some things. I feel better, too.

Unknown Speaker 53:52

Now, I'm a bit where I'm, they they've changed. They've changed things. I don't know what they've done. But they've They said they've edited the scene properly, and they've taken away a lot of the cutaways of my face. And I'm like, good Yeah, cuz Why is it all on me? Why there's no reactions from the other fat people who also were not happy with his shaming.

Unknown Speaker 54:16

And yeah, they make the weather make it seem, which is a real shame. I think they registered now, but I don't know

Unknown Speaker 54:25

is I am the lone voice in the house of this radical, extreme body positivity, which one of the one of the non body positive people said it's a cult, they're a cult.

Unknown Speaker 54:40

And there's something wrong with them. And

Unknown Speaker 54:45

so I'm the lone voice. You don't see any of the other body positive people, all the anti fat people. A lot of times they agreed with what I was saying. You don't see any of that you just see me. So

Unknown Speaker 54:57

teaching this type of nutrition

Unknown Speaker 55:00

Schools causes eating disorders and like no context about like, oh, you know, we should shame fat kids to make them not fat. And then it you know, we don't hear that. But we just hear me saying, teaching kids about food gives them eating disorders. And you're like, that's not really what I'm saying.

Unknown Speaker 55:19

Yes. So I don't know is coming out in on the 29th and 30th.

Unknown Speaker 55:25

And

Unknown Speaker 55:27

it's,

Unknown Speaker 55:29

yeah.

Unknown Speaker 55:32

I've been talking with one of the producers the last couple of days. And I'm like, I sent a pretty stern email being like, why did you make me the villain, I thought this was too forward. But acceptance, and you've made me look like like one of the girls was like they've made you look like an extremist. They've really edited it, edited it to make you look bad when you're not bad. You're not a villain.

Unknown Speaker 55:56

And this is not going to move that acceptance forward. And so I sent an email, which was then sent to the BBC. And I was like, Why? Why have you made me look like the villain? What's going on? Why have you got these certain lines in there? Why have you not edited it truthfully, and what the heck sort of thing. And

Unknown Speaker 56:19

they've done a lot of us. And we've had a lot of communication. And they said, you're going to be really pleased with the edits that we've made. And we've shown more of your backstory and things like that. And so and then, so after this thing, they have a psychologist or therapist, which is that's connected with the show with a production company who speaks to all of the contributors. And so I was like, I want to have a chat with her. Because she's not she's, she's she's seen the show. And she knows this process of, you know, getting ready for a show to air and stuff. And after speaking to her, Oh my god, Jenny, I was like, I'm so glad that Jenny is my therapist, because she made me feel so bad. She was.

Unknown Speaker 57:03

I'm like, Yep, I talked to you to you. So you can Boy, am I making you feel bad.

Unknown Speaker 57:09

But she was all like, yeah, yeah, you come across as she was like, I don't think you're the villain. But you know,

Unknown Speaker 57:20

she's making all these assumptions about me. I don't know if they're true or not. But yeah. Like, you don't you don't do well with one on one interpersonal relationships, because you're not vulnerable with them. And I'm like, and you know that like, what? Like, because there's no, you know, we're in this artificial environment of

Unknown Speaker 57:40

the house where I'm surrounded by fat phobes. And like, I'm, of course, I'm not going to be like, Oh, let me tell you about me and stuff to the people who don't like fatness. But to the people who are my friends, of course. And when the cameras are not there, of course, I'm gonna get even more vulnerable. But

Unknown Speaker 58:00

what else did she say? She was saying other things about what about me? And I was like, well,

Unknown Speaker 58:06

that made me question my whole, like, personality and the way that I'm going around in the world, and

Unknown Speaker 58:15

what else? What are the other things that she was saying? All that, that I need to be more sad about my past. And when I'm talking about my past, because I've spoken about it so much like years of therapy, and also, in my business, I talk about my past a lot. And so I can say, I used to be homeless and abused, and I used to hate my bad body. And now I'm this. And because I don't, because I'm not crying. When I'm talking about it. She says that there's something wrong, and I'm hiding something. And I'm like,

Unknown Speaker 58:52

Well, how can you tell this from watching a two hour show and talking to me for half an hour? So I was like, well, well, not all therapists are a good match. Right?

Unknown Speaker 59:04

Okay, we're back to to Vinnie in the, in the not the future, the present. So that was me talking four years ago. Now, what I expect the reaction is going to be and how I plan to react to the trolls and the British media. So let's listen to that. So we have a legal team at the production company who wants to see the troll comments, I guess the the, I don't know what they do they do something. Maybe they want to collect them.

Unknown Speaker 59:43

But I don't personally want to be responsible for going through my Instagram and reading all that shit. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask maybe my sister as my sister to go through, take a screenshot of all of them and then just delete them. So

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

I don't have to see them. And I'm not going to read any comp, I'm not gonna go out and look for anything. Like if if someone happens to send me any press that they see, and it's positive, then I'll read it. But if not, then I'm not even going to engage in that, because I already know exactly what they're going to say. Because the British media is super fat phobic, like really extreme. My friend, Louise green called Big fit girl. She's a plus sized personal trainer in Vancouver, she went to she released a book, she did a book tour at tour in the UK. And she's promoting health, right? Health, like, let's get fit and whatever.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:41

And they ripped her to shreds. They went, the headlines were like,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:48

this woman who weighs this much thinks that, you know, fat people can be move and do exercise. Like, they were really hardcore, like, hating on her.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:03

And so that kind of gives me a taste of what they might do to someone saying, Hey, it's okay to be fat. And she wasn't even saying like, it's like I didn't fat. She's like, Hey, if you're fat and you want to exercise, this is how you do it. Now we're like this disgusting beast of a woman.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:21

Yeah, so Vinnie in the present, talking now. So I knew that things were going to be rough. And because I had already dealt with trolls, and people with shitty opinions, I thought

Unknown Speaker 1:01:36

I would be robust enough to deal with it, especially as I had been in therapy for years, right? Because it's really easy. If someone says, Vinny, you're wrong, fat people are awful humans. It's really easy for me to not not feel shame about my belief that fat people are a real life humans and should should, you know, be treated as such. Because, ya know, it's not a controversial, I'm gonna say it's not a controversial opinion, but

Unknown Speaker 1:02:07

I'm so sure about that, that I'm so sure that fat people deserve dignity and access to care. And so if someone says you're wrong, well, I'm not going to start saying oh my god, am I wrong? No, I'm not wrong. I know this right. So that was before now the production company we're like, Okay, we have made the all the edits that you suggested and we've really kind of softened you.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:36

So you know, you're gonna love you're gonna love it, though. You know that episode two, you're gonna, it's gonna it really makes you look so good. They didn't say it's gonna make you look so good, but they just used to say soften, you're going to be softened on that. Okay, so I only saw the episodes once before the edit. Then on

Unknown Speaker 1:02:58

Tuesday on Wednesday, the 29th and 30th of October 9pm BMC to the show, they were show and I weighed my family and I gathered around to watch the shows. So you'll hear now from me from the fourth of November so five days after the show's fourth of November 2019

Unknown Speaker 1:03:19

And my reaction five days after

Unknown Speaker 1:03:26

obviously I knew that the world was you know, the UK was going to hate me

Unknown Speaker 1:03:35

but it feels like I'm i It literally feels like I'm the UK is public enemy number one.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:45

And for some for things that I don't believe with and it's kind of like if i i Could I don't I don't mind I do mind but I prefer to be hated for for my actual beliefs versus the beliefs that people think I believe from watching the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:08

Like

Unknown Speaker 1:04:10

okay, so

Unknown Speaker 1:04:12

future of any president Vinnie I'm just gonna the future any other than let's just pretend that I'm in the future

Unknown Speaker 1:04:18

so future Vinay here so next we're going to hear what are the negative beliefs I've internalized by being made the villain villain and this was my my answer that I am

Unknown Speaker 1:04:34

I like anytime empathy

Unknown Speaker 1:04:41

I

Unknown Speaker 1:04:44

a bitch

Unknown Speaker 1:04:49

that I'm unintelligent

Unknown Speaker 1:04:52

that I'm shrill.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:59

That

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

At

Unknown Speaker 1:05:04

one of the newspaper articles said something like, oh, yeah, Victoria, Victoria is nothing but an irritant.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:12

And I thought, yeah, that's

Unknown Speaker 1:05:15

like, it's I took that on board.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:20

I'm just like,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:22

ridiculous, like a stupid, ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:30

Person. Yeah. It's made me reevaluate maybe the way that I communicate.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:41

But even then, like the show is edited to such a, in such a way that you don't get to see

Unknown Speaker 1:05:52

all of the, you know, the conversations leading up to certain things, you just get to see a one liner, and I'm like, Oh, that one liner doesn't seem very empathetic, like the guy who had the stomach amputation surgery, and there's like, a big debate about why it's bad or whatever. And, and then it just goes to me saying he should have, instead of having a surgery, try to lead a healthful lifestyle. And I'm just like, oh, like, I don't like that. Because it comes across, as you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:06:24

who should have done this, who made that decision, or whatever. And when you don't get to see is the conversation that went before they'll, or after? And it's kind of like, they sum it up in a one liner? And you're gonna get to see them being like, Victoria, what do you think Victoria watts, what should he have done? Instead of having, you know, surgery or whatever, you know, they don't you don't see the setup anyway.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:47

Okay, future Vinny here. So something that was really, really, really, really disappointing was the fact that I naively thought that the production company and individual people

Unknown Speaker 1:06:59

liked me and would not let me be thrown under the bus. Really, I was so naive. My therapist said to me, she always thought that if you go on a show, you go on any type of media, and you just by yourself, you stay true to your your morals, your ethics, whatever, you're just yourself, you'll be fine. There's no way that it can go wrong. If you're, if you are a kind person, that's how you'll come across. If you're an you know, a cruel person. That's how it will come across. And she said, I have learned that this is not true. My therapist watched the show and came back and said, that is not the venue that I know, they've taken all of your, you know, other characteristics that make you a whole person. Because we see the sassy side, right, we see the kind of strong side we see the side that's sticking up for people, but we don't see the, the soft side, the funny side, the vulnerable side, the self depreciating jokes, you know, you don't see all of that side that makes me a fully formed human. So she said, Yeah, I'm not seeing you in this. And, you know, I've had no my therapist for years at that point. So let's hear about that.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:22

And, and the big thing is, like, because we've built I built such like, I've been talking to them for mesmerism that's nice, but I speak to them all the time. And like the production company, and I'm like,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:31

I thought you liked me. And I was like, but I'm not the villain. Like if there was a bill in the House and be dealt with because he was like, so did so many things like, which was wildly inappropriate.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:46

And I was like, I'm just so shocked that you know, they made these changes and I didn't get to see and like it. I'm like, Why did you do me like that?

Unknown Speaker 1:08:57

Am I Am I a bad person? And because I was joking around being like, oh, maybe I'm you know, maybe this will be my wake up call. When I see myself on TV. I realize what a dick I am and now I'm like, oh, maybe I'm a dick.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:11

I'm like, speaking to that other therapist. You know, the one I told you about for I haven't spoken to her since just that one session. And I'm like, What's wrong with me? There's something wrong with me there's, there's something wrong with me. And I haven't figured it out figured it out yet. There's something wrong with my brain, or the way that I communicate like

Unknown Speaker 1:09:30

yeah, because like I see some message some of the messages coming through being like Victorian needs to be

Unknown Speaker 1:09:39

put into what is it you know, when you're put into a hospital because you're crazy. And then I got I got a message on Instagram. Like, I'm trying to avoid all messages, but from a psychotherapist who specializes in eating disorders, saying like the rudest stuff being like

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

She started with like, Stop, just stop, you are like a bad person. And you need to get help like your dad didn't because there was a line in this thing saying what I said my dad was an alcoholic, and it was tough to live with him. And I'm like, You're a fucking therapist, and you're messaging messaging, some random person on the internet saying, You need to get help, like your dad did, and like saying other rude things. And then I looked at the page, and they'd written a post about me, and I'm like, Oh, my God, you're so misinformed. Like, because I suppose I speak about privilege in the house that I have a privilege body because it's smaller than other people's bodies. And the people who were not body positive were like, How dare you say, you are so egotistical to think that your body is better than my body? And I'm like, that's not what it means. Anyway, so and then this therapist had written a post saying, Victoria thinks that her body is better. I'm like, How can you be a therapist and not understand about privilege? And you're an eating disorder specialist?

Unknown Speaker 1:10:57

I go mad.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:00

And yeah, and so yeah, so then part of me is like, you know, professionals are telling me that I'm Sarat wrong with me. This is what what really bothers me is for a lot of people, this is the first introduction to body positivity. And the way that it's been framed in the show now, this is my perception, it might not be reality, is that one of the people say in the show,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:26

body positivity is a cult. They brainwash themselves. And then it's like this crazy, extreme thing that you are, you know, anti health and

Unknown Speaker 1:11:37

all of this ridiculousness, so that, so it's actively harmed.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:46

body positivity, because people who are like maybe on the fence, they're like, oh, shit, well, I can't do body positivity, because I care about my health. And it's kind of like, well, that's almost what body positivity is, because diets harm you make you physically and mentally sick. So stopping dieting is doing is embracing health. But that's not what the show show shows. And I feel like I've let down the whole movement of fat activism, because I didn't do a good enough job.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:20

At

Unknown Speaker 1:12:22

I didn't know,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:24

I guess, you know, I wish I'd said those exact same words, I just said to you, but I didn't know that. That's what how they were going to frame it, you know?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:32

So I guess I couldn't have done

Unknown Speaker 1:12:35

anything better. There, you know, but I'm, I'm like the main character on the body positivity side. And I'm like, why is it? Why is it all just me? It's just me and my reactions and stuff in the end?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:50

In a nutshell, they're like, Oh, you're just good TV? Because I've got things to say and stuff.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:56

I don't know. But what you don't see is, every time there was a discussion, I was the one who was going out every single person and saying, What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And so every single voice was heard. And, yeah, they don't show they don't, and they just show my views. And I'm like, but, you know, when I saw the screen, and I say you need to show everyone else's view. But why is it just me? It's just me and

Unknown Speaker 1:13:22

whatever.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:24

Okay, future Vinny, back again. So I had a blog post on my website. So by the way, I just want to clarify my what my views are. Because, you know, people were like, hang on a minute, you think the fat people can never get diabetes? And I'm just like, no. What? No.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:44

Just clarifying my views and stuff, to try and know if anyone was interested,

Unknown Speaker 1:13:50

explained to them

Unknown Speaker 1:13:52

trying to get that tried to get them to understand me. Yes. And so, so many calls from the production company, honestly, I cannot tell you, you know, it's like, well, what have you got to speak about? And it was really kind of like them talking at me and saying, Oh, this, you know, you just do so well. And this is so gray and Ella. So they'd always be texting me saying, can we call you and then they call me and be on the phone for ages. And? Yeah, so by the 31st of October, I sent an email to the production company. I said to them, because I have an email and we talk and Lala.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:32

Those were like, how were you or whatever. So I said to them just was walking on the beach earlier and imagine someone coming with a gun and shooting me I think what makes me most anxious is getting attacked for views. I don't hold. I expected people to hate me for saying it's okay to be fat. Everyone seems to think that I don't think fat people get sick and die. And that's not accurate at all. I wish that I'd had known that episode one

Unknown Speaker 1:15:00

was edited to make that assumption about me even more extreme. Why was that done? Why was I made into an extreme character? And what they would say is, we just showed what happened. We just showed what happened.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:16

We didn't. We did. That's not what happened. So

Unknown Speaker 1:15:21

that was frustrating, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:15:24

Why? November 10. I'm no longer responding to their emails and requests to talk. I talked to my therapist. So that's actually November 11th. I stopped talking to them. So never November 10. I talked to my therapist. This is how I'm feeling at that time.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:44

Like, I feel like the production company gaslighting me because,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:49

you know, like, I spoke to them yesterday, and I'm like,

Unknown Speaker 1:15:55

bye, I thought you liked me sort of thing. So why did you not present me as a sympathetic character, like you did with other people who maybe weren't as actually sympathetic in real life? And they're like, well, we just, you know, that basically, they say, well, we just showed what happened. And then I'm saying, Well, you didn't you didn't show everything that what happened? And they're like, well, we didn't have the time. And, and so then they said, you know, well, we did, you know, there was some softening of you, you know, like, when you when you said that your dad was an alcoholic? And an hour was like, well, that, you know, you don't see, you know, you know, that's just like a little bit in two hours. And there's no, you know, seeing all the sweet moments with everyone and seeing, seeing everything else, you know, so like, I like I said to them, they've made me like, this character that I'm that I'm not and, and they didn't do they didn't necessarily, they changed the episodes even more

Unknown Speaker 1:17:04

before airing, which is what's really difficult, because if I, if they

Unknown Speaker 1:17:11

if I'd seen the final final episodes, when I thought they were the final final episodes, then I could have been like, hey, you know, and actually, I did say like, Hey, like,

Unknown Speaker 1:17:22

you know, I'm the villain make me not the villain. And then wait, yeah, we're making the second episode. So it looks like you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:17:30

it making you a lot softer, they said, and

Unknown Speaker 1:17:34

obviously, not that much. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:38

Future of any here, this is a pit the bit that you need to skip over, if you do not want to hear about suicidal thoughts. So when I stop talking from this bit, skip ahead. Two minutes and 15 actually skip ahead four minutes, and there will be no more talking about suicide ideation.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:04

So when I stop talking,

Unknown Speaker 1:18:07

I'm not making this easy for you. i

Unknown Speaker 1:18:10

I'm just trying to think of the times for when I'm, you know, because I'm recording this now. And anyway, so skip ahead four minutes.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:17

But by the way, I say that I was I was already have I say I was already having suicidal thoughts. And what I mean by that was after the show aired in the past weeks, so before all of this I was doing really, really well. I was really excited about the show and what could happen. Yeah, so it's gonna head four minutes now if you want to hear if not, then let's listen.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:39

I was already feeling like having suicidal thoughts. And

Unknown Speaker 1:18:49

still still having

Unknown Speaker 1:18:55

having those feelings of like, I just want to die and I have no hope. And not being able to cope and

Unknown Speaker 1:19:05

just it feels like one of the worst times in my life.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:10

Like it feels like

Unknown Speaker 1:19:13

Like, I've not been this like sad or hopeless since I was like, in my early 20s And

Unknown Speaker 1:19:21

with the abusive boyfriend and

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you know,

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to say feels like everything is

Unknown Speaker 1:19:29

like so much excitement and hope for the TV show. And you know, nothing's come of it apart from

Unknown Speaker 1:19:36

loads of

Unknown Speaker 1:19:39

hate that have happened before where it's where, you know, it will just be like an invasive thought of I wish I was dead.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:46

It's like that, but it's also worse than, you know, than like I've ever had before, which is

Unknown Speaker 1:19:55

thinking about

Unknown Speaker 1:19:58

doing things to myself.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:01

Like last night I thought about

Unknown Speaker 1:20:05

like midnight went dead went outside and I thought about walking into the sea and drowning myself

Unknown Speaker 1:20:14

or like stabbing myself with a knife in the tummy.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:21

Like I've never thought about, you know, things like that before. And like last last week my mum was away and so I was alone in the house all weekend.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:32

And one night I was just crying so much and

Unknown Speaker 1:20:38

I was like really close to call in the Samaritans

Unknown Speaker 1:20:45

everything everything that I'm trying I'm like excited about and

Unknown Speaker 1:20:51

doesn't work, I would make sure that I would go out every day with the dogs to the beach.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:03

But one day, when I was on the beach, I wrote in the sand I wish I was dead

Unknown Speaker 1:21:14

we went to

Unknown Speaker 1:21:17

I started Zumba. I've never done that before.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:22

But normally I go to aqua aerobics and I feel too embarrassed to go to, to aqua aerobics. Because everyone that was before the show was like really excited and being like, oh, you're a celebrity. And I just feel really embarrassed that they're going to be like, your, your, you should be ashamed of yourself. And so I don't want to go back.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:43

Okay, for you to have any hair again, that was really hard for me to listen to, I had to go back and I just couldn't just

Unknown Speaker 1:21:53

listening to the me being like, that was really, really sad for me. And I'm not the type of person to cry. That was only the second time in therapy ever, I cried. And I've overcome some really big shit. So, you know, for me to cry in front in front of my therapist, I you know, I'd been socialized not to in my family, we will not cry as was huge for me like the amount of shame for even crying.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:27

Let alone all of the other stuff on my God. So the next bit here is I'm having yet another conversation with the production company and the production company are not a reliable narrator in the reality of what's happening. And because I was so deep in shame, instead of being like, they are not unreliable narrator of what has happened, because they are protecting their interests.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:58

I instead internalized it as well, they're probably being kind by doing me the service of telling me that I'm an awful human. Right, I was really internalizing it, versus being able to say, you know, take a step back and be like, Huh, why is it that they are not telling me the truth that, you know, I'm, I'm a character to them. So let's listen to that.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:27

Talking to them last night, I just wanted them to say, Yeah, you are a nice person, or you're, you know, you're not a villain in we portrayed you that way. But

Unknown Speaker 1:23:40

they won't say that. And then it makes me think a wall. And then they say, well, we just showed showed what happened. And so then I'm like, well, they must hate me, then, you know, I must be

Unknown Speaker 1:23:54

I must be, you know, a shitty person. Because why would they do that to someone that they liked? Or, you know, like, could they be that, that that cruel to spend? How many hours like literally hundreds of hours talking to me and getting to know me and

Unknown Speaker 1:24:15

my history and stuff and then threw me out like nope, throw me out to the lions? Like no, you know, we always knew that there were going to be, you know, loads of fat folks and stuff, but like, I don't care about them, because, you know, this, they're stupid, but the people who

Unknown Speaker 1:24:35

you know, the production company who I thought I didn't, you know, I didn't think that they weren't on my side or something, but it kind of felt like they were into fat positivity and on my side and, you know, liked being with my friend and, you know, this is like I was joking, saying, you know, maybe this is my maybe the show will be my wake up call and

Unknown Speaker 1:25:00

Wake up moment to realize that I'm actually a massive knob. And it kind of feels like that's come true that this is my you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:25:09

by the way, Victoria, no one's told you before but but we're showing you that you're a massive knob and you need to change your behavior or who you are. Or I'm just I'm really surprised like how much

Unknown Speaker 1:25:21

this has affected me. I wish you know, like, if people were like,

Unknown Speaker 1:25:27

Oh, you you want you think we should be nice to fat people, then I'd be like, Yeah, but because they're like, you think no fat person could ever gets sick, and they're gonna live forever? And I'm just like, No, it's not what I think or, you know, people are like, Oh, you're such a bitch and stuff. And I'm like, no, no, I don't think I am. Question mark, whereas a couple of weeks ago would have been like, no exclamation point. But I kind of think like,

Unknown Speaker 1:25:57

you know, I don't know if this is a north north american thing, but it's like a British thing. Like, if you're, when you're a kid, and you and you say, and your parents says to in front of people stop showing off when you're like, messing about and stuff. And it's like, the most embarrassing thing ever, and you're like, I'm not showing off. And that's what I feel like, this is this, you know, I was just free and happy and didn't care and just whatever and showing off and

Unknown Speaker 1:26:25

and now I feel almost embarrassed that I was

Unknown Speaker 1:26:30

oblivious to

Unknown Speaker 1:26:35

how I was or that

Unknown Speaker 1:26:39

people might not might not like me, showing off or, you know, walking around in a bikini and not caring or whatever. Okay, future future have any back.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:50

So the thing, you know, that was really hard was people hating me for beliefs that I didn't hold.

Unknown Speaker 1:26:56

And so this is what's called the straw man argument. So when someone changes the point that they're arguing, arguing against, so, for example, say so I say, Hey, we should treat people like human beings, we should treat fat people like human beings, and they say, Oh, so you think fat people are better than thin people? Here's why you're wrong. Actually, I got so many messages from people saying, you think that fat people are better than thin people? And I was like, what?

Unknown Speaker 1:27:26

Show me one time that I said that, like, no.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:31

So from Wikipedia, a straw man fallacy is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussing discussion. While not recognizing or acknowledging this distinction. One who engaged in his set fallacy is said to be attacking a straw man. So that our you know, he's like, You can't argue with people who were saying, We're youth, you think that everyone should be forced to have sex with fat people?

Unknown Speaker 1:27:58

Know what?

Unknown Speaker 1:28:02

Let's listen to this last bit about showing off. I had this dream last night. And it was I was on stage with all of the other participants in this like, big audience. And everyone was just like, we don't want Victoria on the stage. And, and I was trying to get them to like me by like, clowning around, or whatever. And

Unknown Speaker 1:28:25

yeah, I guess like, that's the big feeling of

Unknown Speaker 1:28:29

I was really stupid to be happy and clown and around. Future many here. So that that sentence sentiment, that sentence, I hear from clients often, that they have this experience, they go to an event, they go to a party or whatever, they were feeling confident, they're wearing a new outfit, they just feel good. They then see a picture of themselves. And then they feel deep shame and they feel like oh, I was just out there showing off. I was just out there feeling confident and feeling happy. And little did I know that I looked disgusting really. And so a lot of people experience that and that is the shame of their body and shame they were showing off when they had no reason to. Right and that that's not true right? That's not true.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:22

That they had no reason to because they were just out living their life minus shame and that's how shame works. It will it will just you know rear up and try and remind you of you're trying to you know, let go of shame and then it will be like hell Oh, I'm beg the dip back back again. Isn't honorable song of that. It's just that's Eminem, isn't it? She Slim Shady is back. Have no idea anyway, whatever. Yeah, like I hadn't recognized it. So a lot of this this stuff. This stuff that we're hearing from me. I hadn't. I have never I've never listened

Unknown Speaker 1:30:00

to write, I've never listened, watch back. I didn't want to because it was so difficult for me.

Unknown Speaker 1:30:07

And so I'm seeing now and obviously, I've had so much therapy about this, since I'm seeing things a lot more clearly. So and this is this is healing for me. of, you know, when you step away from someone, or when I hit when I talk to a client, or you know, and they say, I'm really I'm really struggling and this is what I think and I'm like, Oh, that's a lot of shame. When I when I was in deep shame, I was like, Oh, I'm no, it's not shame. I'm just a piece of shit. You know?

Unknown Speaker 1:30:35

I couldn't. And my therapist said at the time, like this is straight and this is what's happening. And, and, you know, that was helpful, but I was still kind of like, well

Unknown Speaker 1:30:48

I'm a terrible Muslim. Yeah, this guy to have one final clip of me talking. Okay, future Vinnie. So one way for me that trauma manifest is bad dreams that always has been.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:01

And so I was I was traumatized by the experience, this experience.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:07

I really was. And that shame, that shame what my dead shame led to, I'm not a worthy human, which led to I shouldn't be here anymore. I should be on alive. This situation is extreme, right? You know, how often are you going to be on a TV show with 2.4 million people watching? It's not a normal situation. But it is a normal feeling. Because you know, anyone has anyone you know, anything could happen. It doesn't have to be in front of millions of people. That same pattern can happen feeling shame, feeling like you're not a worthy person, and feeling suicidal. And so, for me, I think because I've done so much therapy, I think if I had a normal shame experience, like, you know, I don't know, I shit myself on the bus or something. I don't know. I just I probably think that that was funny.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:04

I don't know, something was shamed me something happened that I felt shaped. I think I you know, that wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't have spiraled into feeling so shit there because it was magnified. And that's the thing with reality TV, it's so magnified. You know, it's like shitting yourself on the bus. But you know, there's a TV crew filming it. But you're not shooting yourself, you're saying something that you that you Cringer and then you have all of these people saying you're an awful human, or whatever it is. So the question was, How can I be sad and devastated, which is normal? And not turn it on myself? How can I be disappointed for the outcome of this thing that I was really excited about? And not turn it on myself.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:54

And the option that I had is love, love for myself? For other people who are hurting out there. And self compassion times a million, which is always easier said than done. Right? So I told my family how I was feeling which is really hard. But my mum is my mom is a typical, worried Irish Mommy, you know, like, if you sleep for too long, she's like, I'm sure that they're dead, you know? Yeah, that type of thing. So telling my mom that I was suicidal was difficult, because I know that she would be so worried. I told my sister and I felt really worried about 10 of my sister because guess what I felt like a giant burden. And, you know, I felt worthy of the shame that I was feeling and, and she was, the reactions were different from what I expected. You know, I expected I'm a burden. Hence why having

Unknown Speaker 1:33:55

suicidal feelings. And if I tell my family, that this is how I'm feeling, feeling, they're probably just going to confirm that I'm a burden. You know, because my mom will be worried that's a burden some to her. My sister will just be like, Ah, so you just have a reaction that would be no way that she would have but my brain was telling me that she just put it Oh, shut up, you know, but they were like, it's almost like they love me. Oh, so weird. You know, they were like, We love you. And we're so sorry this happened. And you're important to us and your mental health is important to us. I couldn't do that alone. If I had to, I would have died.

Unknown Speaker 1:34:44

So if you're having those same feelings that I'm having, please talk to someone. Just that you know, the act of talking to someone was really helpful for me and telling my family I feel shit and just being like, we're kind of like we're in this together. Versus this

Unknown Speaker 1:35:00

Since the end of it, and I cannot share that shame with anyone, and this is exactly like people who are shaming you, this is exactly how they want you to feel. They want to shut you up. They want you to feel like you're worthless. And that's bullshit. And this is a good lesson of how hard it is to not internalize shame. It's so hard not to internalize shame. And the big thing is, you know, just continue reaching out to telling telling people in my life how I was feeling, which was difficult. And I did little bits, but not really, you know, I'd be like, oh, you know, I was really fucked up for that program. And I think, you know, I can maybe told a couple of friends that yeah, I was actually suicidal. And, and knowing that I'm a lovable person.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:49

I deserve love, and people do love me. And a reminder that you are lovable.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:56

And you deserve love.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:59

There's this post on Instagram that I saw recently. It's so good. Apparently, it's a lot of people love it. It's really, it's really interesting that the different types of suicide suicidal ideation, so skip ahead a couple of minutes if you don't want me to, I'm just going to read out the read out the post, it's an image. So the images I'll put the link in the in the show notes, the images of like a thermometer, and like at the bottom, no ideation at the top, you've got acting on it underneath you've got no ideation, passive ideation, active ideation, active ideation, and then acting upon the ideation so they say this is opposed from Elise rione.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:43

Note all of these types and levels of suicidality are valid and doesn't dictate the level of pain intensity or distress you may feel. These are these also aren't always clear cut someone might be moving around a few skip levels, fall in between etc. Okay, so right at the bottom, no ideation you just don't have any thoughts about suicide. Next, we have random intrusive thought.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:10

Passing thought, curiosity, for example, what if I just jumped when waiting for the train? And it's but that's different if the person has chronic suicidality. Next, so that's no ideation next is passive. So passive is thoughts of morbidity. So thinking about own death, and dying, but not specifically by self. Example, I wish I would. I wish I wouldn't wake up. I wish I would did.

Unknown Speaker 1:37:40

The next one for passive is suicidal thoughts with no intent or plan. So thinking about killing self, but no details and no intention to act? Example, I should just kill myself. I wish I could just kill myself. Okay, so next is the active suicidal thoughts method, no plan or intent has an idea of how they would do it. But no specific plan or intent example. I thought about overdosing by and not going to do it. So that's where I was I was in the active suicidal ideation stage. The next part of that stage is suicidal intent. No plan. So intends to kill self but doesn't have a specific plan. For example, I think I'm going to kill myself but not sure when. Okay, so the next one is at the top of the thermometer, and it's the act stage. So suicidal with plan and intent. So has a specific plan, how, when where, and intends to carry it out example, I'm going to overdose tomorrow at home. And the final is suicide attempt attempts to kill self either initiating may plan or impulsively really good graphic, you are able to print or download in my suicide prevention pack on the website for Elise Mariani and again, linked in the show notes. And, you know, if you're feeling any of these things, wherever you are on the exactly like it says on here, it's valid, and it doesn't dictate the level of pain, like I was in really huge, huge pain. And so when I first read this, I was like, Oh, well, I wasn't as bad as what I thought. But I was in and out a whole heap of pain.

Unknown Speaker 1:39:32

You know, and so you could be like, lower on the scale or whatever, you know, everyone is different, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:39:40

Yeah. So by this point in our story, I have emailed the production company and said,

Unknown Speaker 1:39:49

you limit so that was November that I was that was November the last time I was we hear we heard from Pastor Vinnie and January the ninth I email

Unknown Speaker 1:40:00

Hold the production company. So, still feeling suicidal, saying I just want you to update you with how I'm getting on because I keep their keep badgering me, right. I'm not in a place to be able to chat at the moment since the show aired. And we last chatted, I've been struggling a lot with how I've prepared and it has made me suicidal. I haven't been suicidal since I came out of an abusive relationship 15 years ago. And so, this has come as a big shock to me to be at this place. Again, when I've worked so hard on my mental health, and I'm more normally very resilient.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:34

It's not the public response per se, because I knew people would hate me. It's a fact that I thought everyone at the production company liked me, understood me, cared about me. But I was being naive about what the reality was, that it wasn't about liking me or not, it was about making entertainment. Unfortunately, it's come at the expense of my well being.

Unknown Speaker 1:40:54

And then February, I email them saying, Don't contact me anymore, because they kept contacting me.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:01

So how shame works I find shame so fascinating. It's such a such a fucking motherfucker, isn't it? So I'm just gonna read the Psychology Today, some bits of from the Psychology Today article.

Unknown Speaker 1:41:18

What is shame? And how does it show up in your life and work? We all have shame and quote, the less you talk about it according to Brene Brown, the more you have it, so let's talk about it a little more, so that we might experience it a little bit less. And what is shame? Shame is a deeply distressing uncomfortable emotion which typically arises when we've made a mistake. Shame. In contrast to guilt, which we'll get to in a minute involves feelings of inadequacy, negative self evaluation and self consciousness in response to our perceived error. Brene Brown describes shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unloved, unworthy of love, and belonging, something we've experienced, done or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection. In other words, having done something wrong, we feel that we ourselves not just our actions are flawed shame is underlined by a nagging belief, or sufficient that we are inadequate or unlovable.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:18

And the difference between shame and guilt, guilt and shame are closely related in that each occurs after having made a mistake of some kind, we may feel remorseful In either case, however, guilt is a feeling about our actions were a shame is a feeling about ourselves. Brene Brown differentiates the two is follow. Shame is I am bad. Guilt is I did something bad.

Unknown Speaker 1:42:42

Another difference is that the remorse brought about by guilt can actually be constructive. If we know our actions can hurt someone, for example, we can allow our guilt to inform how we fix the error. We may apologize, make amends or act differently next time. Shame on the other hand, is not constructive. Carl Jung described it as a soul eating emotion.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:06

Not only does shame lead to a host of emotional interpersonal problems, but we also are more likely to disconnect from both ourselves and others when we feel shame.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:18

And that's what I did is is I have disconnected from a lot of my friends. Like I've been back in Vancouver for two years. I'm just now starting to see my extended friend circle. And they they a lot of them can't believe it. They're like you've been back for two years. Like why can I? Why haven't we heard from you. And it's because I've been isolating I've been isolating from my closest friends and family because I was able to tell them how I was feeling.

Unknown Speaker 1:43:51

So how shame impacts you as an adult. Some examples of

Unknown Speaker 1:43:56

shame or self perpetuating phenomenon. If when we're in shame, it is hard to extract ourselves from it, both in the moment and within a larger, lifelong pattern of feeling unlovable, unworthy and defective. When we experience shame as adults, we may deal with it internally or attempted to stop discharge it externally. In other words, the shame we feel if it gets projected onto others externally, or turned inward towards ourselves. Typically we do a bit of both. So examples of external shame include blame, contempt, anger, shaming others, or controlling of others. So I was I think I was in the anger.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:35

I'm probably blamed, I probably blamed the production company.

Unknown Speaker 1:44:39

We're probably more intimately familiar, however, with the ways that our shame gets turned inward. Some examples of shame directed inward include perfectionism, isolation, isolation, slash withdrawal, that was me, addiction, self harm, low self esteem. That definitely affected my self esteem and feelings of worthlessness. Yep.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:00

A chronic shame can have a profound impact on our mental health, including increased risk of depression, anxiety and suicide. It can also show up in our lives in more innocuous ways, including at work in our relationships, and when we least expect it.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:15

They say how to tame shame reparent yourself, revisit your childhood, know your triggers, turn your inner critic into a trusted coach. Make small positive changes.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:31

So if you want to read that whole thing, link in the show notes. What are we on? 181 100 fifty.com forward slash 180. For that funny I want to end with, you know, what's the future for reality TV? I wonder if you want to know what's the future for me? I don't know what I'm alive.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:52

We

Unknown Speaker 1:45:55

but people have been talking about this right? And people haven't noticed not only the suicides but also how people in reality TV are treated poorly. So here's a thing from from time, a thing. Here's an article from time. Why is it why it's so hard for reality TV stars to get protection from exploitation. Okay, so in 2019, Morgan, and Selim, we're going to assume a contestant who participated in the French Big Brother adaptation, Secret Story frosh five and 2011 did what many other reality stars deemed unthinkable. She spoke up against the super power production company that runs the popular show, over a 30 minute YouTube video on some gave a look into the otherwise mysterious workings of reality TV. By the way, it's in French I went to try and watch it but I don't speak French. On some alleged that throughout the casting, filming and post production of the show, which required her to be sequestered from the world for 13 weeks, she experienced psychological manipulation, including restricted access to prescribe antihistamines, which led to severe symptoms and later PTSD. With the video, which is now has 4 million views She aimed to give a better understanding of how reality TV shows function and potentially help future participants know what they'd be getting themselves into on some recalls being isolated in that decision. She says while many of her classmates private related to the her experience, they were not willing to talk about it in in public due to fears of retaliation, or being blacklisted from production. It's true it's true the fear of this huge conglomerate, and you're breaking the rules. I'm breaking up breaking the world right now. Don't Don't Don't Don't tell them.

Unknown Speaker 1:47:45

I can get sued or something, you know, because I'm not allowed to talk about this stuff. But you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:47:51

doing it any I'm getting anxious about that. Oh, anyway, so you don't you just don't you because you're just a person, right? Yeah. Why would you talk out speak out and about a big, big thing when there's so much to lose isn't well, what's to gain? For me what's the gain is releasing some more of the shame that I'm feeling and not being isolated in how I'm doing. Okay, continuing, a lot of stuff was done to push us to the edge and it was rough. That's so true. They try and push you to the edge. She tells time. I knew I needed to wait for when my NDA expired, but I promised myself I would say something so she she had a seven year NDA. I think my NDA is like forever. Now amid ongoing strikes in the entertainment industry on som has come comfort is comforted to see a broader discussion emerge over exploitation in the reality TV industry, with writers and actors on strike in Hollywood, the production of a new scripted TV of new scripted TV has slowed to a trickle trickle and reality shows along with game shows and reruns will fill the void left on broadcast TV come fall. As scripted TV dominates the channels there has been a new push for reform and reality TV.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:05

So now there's current efforts for reform this summer former Real Housewives of New York cast member Bethany Frankel questioned why reality stars were also on strike along with writers and actors and led to call for a reality TV unit. unionisation quote, reality stylists should have a union or simply be treated fairly and valued. She wrote in an Instagram caption. Frankl has since partnered with two high powered attorneys to look at look into the alleged mistreatment of reality personalities. In August sag AFTRA.

Unknown Speaker 1:49:37

AFTRA confirmed its support of Frankel Frankel isn't the only one trying to bring reality styles together against exploitation earlier this year. Multiple Love is blind contestants alleged that the Netflix reality series fostered in an environment that was quote hell on earth in an insider piece. Nick Thompson, a contestant from season two said the production offered little in the way of support after

Unknown Speaker 1:50:00

Putting cast members in a dating experience experiment saying it's quote literally ruins lives. his classmate Jeremy Hartwell filed a lawsuit against Netflix for quote, inhumane working conditions. Following the insider piece. Kinetic content, the production company behind Love is blind, told The Hollywood Reporter In a statement, quote, the well being of our participants is of paramount importance to kinetic. We have rigorous protocols in place to care for each person before during and after filming. I think that's probably bullshit. Unless they're paying for that person to have their own therapist. They're paying them a fair wage. They are also filming in a way that is ethical. They are also filming in a way

Unknown Speaker 1:50:50

editing in a way that is truthful. It's just not true. You know, it's just uh, you know, we do the do what best you know, we offer them support, but it's like, you know, with me being offered support from a therapist who, who, who was was not good for the production company. They're not on my side.

Unknown Speaker 1:51:12

In reality TV the matter of who can share what is complicated by star power and non disclosure agreements. FRANKEL is a bonafide reality star with a large platform of her own. She can speak out and call for unionization while facing little in the way of consequences for stars like ensemble Thompson and Hartwell calling attention to the mistreatment cast members often face means that they will likely never return to reality TV exactly is terrifying. Hartwell itself tells time, I'm going up against these massive organizations and companies and feeling like you're the only one out there in the public eye doing it. Their organizing has already brought to the forefront conversations that usually stay behind closed doors with productions. But several factors from production companies wanting to remain low cost to reality styles facing NDAs and wanting to sustain their careers mean that the road to reform is a long one. Frankel's call to you know, unionize, put pressures puts pressure on television production companies and networks to reconsider how stars in unscripted programming get paid. Currently, reality TV stars do not receive residuals and they give away their likeness in perpetuity. When series becomes hits and gets replayed across platforms. Quote, I got paid 7250 For my first season season of reality TV, and people are still watching those episodes episodes said Frankel in a tick tock video. For networks maintaining their structure as it keeps this form of entertainment cost effective reality TV is already significantly cheaper to produce and scripted television television due to lower budgets that don't require the employment of unionized writers and actors and Hart wells class action lawsuit claims contestants on his season of love is blind were paid around at $7.14 per hour, significantly lower than Los Angeles $15 minimum wage rate where the production company is based. Yes. So what I'm taking from all of this is,

Unknown Speaker 1:53:11

you know, when I'm watching reality TV, because it's entertainment, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:53:16

It's entertaining, is when they show someone who we love to hey, you know, that character that we love to hate? I will rarely be curious about what actually happened. I would love to know, like, I would love to know, I would love to pick the brain of someone who is behind the scenes of making the program like are they like, Okay, what is the story? What story are we going for? Are we going to be showing that this person is is is unstable, and this person is mean, and this person is really sweet. And this person is whatever, like, and then they kind of fit the narrative? What like is that what's happening? Or is it that they because they can't show all of the stories, right? They can't show fully rounded characters, they don't have the time. And it's probably not as entertaining, right? It's probably not as entertaining being like, yeah, that person said some things that probably weren't appropriate at that time. But you know, what, afterwards, they apologized and, and, you know, it's understandable why they said that because other person did that. And, you know, and actually, we know about that background, and I can see why they might have experience around, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:54:35

that's less fun than being like, oh, that person's evil. Oh, they're so annoying, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:54:42

but these are not characters. They're real humans. And that visible hate that the public has for them. And probably that experience of from the production company of there has to be true.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:00

It's built with a production company for them to be safe to be themselves in front of the camera as much as they can be, you know, well, maybe not. But there has to be trust is is attempting to be built with a production company.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:12

And so wondering how many people feel like that trust is broken. And for me, the big thing, the big thing that I keep coming back to is that there's that master interview, that master interview fucked me up. And the amount of times, I think about lines that I said in the master interview, and feel so much shame, and be like, Well, why didn't you just do this? Why didn't you just say that? I mean, well, I guess I did. You know, when I said that's inappropriate. Doesn't matter that I said, I, you know, certain questions, that's inappropriate. I don't want to answer that. I set a boundary there. Yeah, I set a boundary there. I said, I'm not answering that question. And they kept going against the boundary. Yeah, that's a year when my therapist said to me like boundaries.

Unknown Speaker 1:55:58

Like, she uses this analogy, like a staircase, right? So you know, the first time you set a boundary, you might be like, Oh, no, thanks. And the next step time, you know, the person keeps pushing, it's your boundary, you might be like, Oh, it's not for me. Thanks. I'm not going to do it. And then next time, you're like, No, thank you. And then the next time you're like, Listen, I've said, no, no. And then the next time they're gonna, you're gonna be like, hey, leave, listen, leave me alone. And so the TV show is show is showing that final one, whether you say, Hey, listen, leave me alone. And it makes you seem unreasonable. Because they you know, they say he having a nice day, and then hey, listen, leave me alone. is like, Oh, wow, my person is all gone. And I need to react like that. And you don't see everything that leading up to it, right.

Unknown Speaker 1:56:49

Yeah, cuz I was like having like a white. Why? Why did I have to be stern? Always because I said, I am not answering that question. Probably 15 times.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:03

Hello. I think most people would probably like, What the fuck?

Unknown Speaker 1:57:09

No, leave me alone. Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:13

Hey, so it's a Vinny from the future future. That was the I had just recorded the episode.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:22

And I was

Unknown Speaker 1:57:24

having a bath. And thinking about things and being like, Oh, shame, shame, shame. I'm not gonna put the episode out.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:34

Anyway, and I think in what's what's my barrier?

Unknown Speaker 1:57:38

have forgot to say I forgot to say something. And the thing that I wanted to say was

Unknown Speaker 1:57:47

that

Unknown Speaker 1:57:50

if you just if you choose to watch the episode,

Unknown Speaker 1:57:55

episodes, it's, again, if you want to, it's called. Who are you calling fat? BBC. Who are you calling flat BBC.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:04

You might watch it and be like, Oh, I thought you were really awesome. Vinnie, you did really? Well. I don't think that you're the villain at all.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:16

And some people might watch it and be like, Oh, yeah. You're the villain for sure. And then everyone's gonna have an opinion in between.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:26

That's the thing that that was difficult for me, right was that

Unknown Speaker 1:58:32

there's no kind of clear cut.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:35

But so saying so saying that, it doesn't matter if I was amazing on the show, in reality, or if I was the villain in the show, in reality, I was harmed either way, right? And when I was, like, deep in my,

Unknown Speaker 1:58:54

my depression,

Unknown Speaker 1:58:57

I was getting a lot of messages saying, Vinny Wow, that was so awesome. You were so good in that you really, you know, did this and that, and it was really helpful for me. And those messages were lovely to see. But what, in my mind at the time, almost meaningless, because I was just like, well, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:59:18

but they don't know. Like, their opinion doesn't count is so weird, like the way that my brain was working like the, the awful opinions, they count that when people are like video awesome. They don't count obviously. Because you know, you're in shame. Obviously, they do count though, you know.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:36

So, so you might watch it and be like, I don't know what even they're talking about that being the villain or, or probably the, somewhere in between.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:47

But also,

Unknown Speaker 1:59:50

I was only in the house filming for like nine or 10 days, whatever it was.

Unknown Speaker 1:59:56

And I was not the clear cut like

Unknown Speaker 2:00:00

An evil terrible, awful person that everyone in the world was together on the fact that they that I am, you know, not worthy of anything versus other TV shows where there is a clear cut like everyone's like, Oh my god, so and so is awful, right.

Unknown Speaker 2:00:22

And so just recognizing that

Unknown Speaker 2:00:27

I only had to put up with the stuff for 10 days, the, you know, the filming and the filming was fine, you know, film was okay, apart from, you know, the couple of traumatic things. But

Unknown Speaker 2:00:39

and then obviously, you know, that master interview really fucked me up. But

Unknown Speaker 2:00:45

anyway, that was just 10 days, nine days, whatever it was, some people are on these TV shows for weeks and weeks and weeks, right. And some people have that they are definitely 100% The villain and everyone in the world hates them. And so I just want to kind of recognize those people before

Unknown Speaker 2:01:05

they have.

Unknown Speaker 2:01:09

That is really, really difficult. And so if I had went through kind of what I went through from not clear cut, am I the villain and 10 days of filming, and that made me almost die.

Unknown Speaker 2:01:26

What could happen if it was 11 days, 13 days, two weeks of filming five weeks of filming a year of filming?

Unknown Speaker 2:01:36

And what if I didn't get any messages saying Oh, Vinnie, you're cool.

Unknown Speaker 2:01:42

You know, so

Unknown Speaker 2:01:44

I was just like, oh, you know, I don't want people think that I'm just complaining. And it's like,

Unknown Speaker 2:01:50

shame, shame, shame, shame, shame.

Unknown Speaker 2:01:55

I'm so conscious of since the show, I've been so conscious of how

Unknown Speaker 2:02:02

I can be misinterpreted, and wanting to explain myself so that there is less chance I will be misinterpreted. I'll always be misinterpreted. You know, just because people hear information in different ways, right. But I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Because I think

Unknown Speaker 2:02:24

it's almost like I'm making disclaimers all the time of this, which is, I guess, helpful for for some people because, you know, like, I use the example of sort of, you know, people were messaging me and saying you hate thin people. And so like,

Unknown Speaker 2:02:38

if I do a, you know, an Instagram post, I'll I'll, I'll have like a, make sure that I'm like, I'm not saying that I hate thin people.

Unknown Speaker 2:02:50

As you know, as an example, or any other way that it can maybe me be misconstrued, which is

Unknown Speaker 2:02:59

I don't know, maybe it maybe makes me a better communicator makes maybe it makes me

Unknown Speaker 2:03:04

paranoid.

Unknown Speaker 2:03:06

I don't know. Who knows, but whatever. Anyway, that's what I want you to come and say is that

Unknown Speaker 2:03:12

your perception of how I come across on the show, if you watch it might be different from reality.

Unknown Speaker 2:03:22

And my perception is my perception is that there would certainly good bits in there of me and there was some bits where I was, like I said, a really good one liner.

Unknown Speaker 2:03:30

Or, you know,

Unknown Speaker 2:03:34

yeah, that was good bits. But also there were bits where it was just like, so crushingly cringe, and

Unknown Speaker 2:03:40

so it wasn't that's the thing. It's not like 100% clear cut, like I'm the worst human that's ever existed. But you know,

Unknown Speaker 2:03:49

the, the the jest that I got from it is that I'm a dickhead. Again, you might not agree.

Unknown Speaker 2:03:55

And even like the contributors, the other contributors, some of them said yeah, you're the villainous said no, you're amazing. So

Unknown Speaker 2:04:03

yeah, if you're gonna watch the show,

Unknown Speaker 2:04:07

be be aware that there's people using the Oh words, there's people there who were displaying anti fat beliefs. So proceed with caution. There are bits obviously that's the joy for fat positivity. So if you want to risk that

Unknown Speaker 2:04:23

fat negativity and fat hate for the fat positivity then then go watch it wherever you find it. I'm again not googling it, because

Unknown Speaker 2:04:32

that's not safe for my mental health. Anytime like I need to Google like something like office for a podcast episode, whatever. And it will look at Google I'm like, Oh, God just don't even look like hard for my mental health. Like, look, you know what the trolls is a. Anyway, I'll stop rambling. Back to the episode by

Unknown Speaker 2:04:52

So anyway, this has been a really long episode. I hope that you found it enjoyable.

Unknown Speaker 2:04:59

You know, versus versus it just being a therapeutic device for me. And I do feel I do feel I do feel I feel good. I do feel anxious and Shamy a little bit but not too much. And I feel like something's been lifted. So yeah, and again, if you're feeling you're not feeling good, there's resources out there. And you're lovable, you're worthy. You don't deserve to feel shamed. Yeah, and I hope I hope hopefully you're all doing good and links for everything in the show notes. If you want to support the show. You can do so on Koh Phi. And yeah, I'll see you in the next episode. Stay first 143 is body they face fatty. See in a while alligator.

Episode 179 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 179. How to feel more confident in your body? I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:24

Hello, hi, hey, how are you? Oh my goodness, I've missed you. I've not recorded a podcast episode in two months, because I batched a couple. And also, I'm recording less podcast episodes at the moment. So it's, it feels like, you know, I'm giving you updates and stuff. And then as you know, I've not been able to give you updates. So um, anyway, hey, how you doing? Today we're talking about how to feel more confident in your body. And the reason why we're talking about it is that Instagram is has given me something called a channel, which is this new way of communicating with people. It's like a, like a secret kind of messaging place. And so my first message was to people was, what do you want to see on the show? What, What topic do you want on the show?

Unknown Speaker 1:24

I'm always so surprised by what people say. And so I gave some topic ideas. I give the ideas and then people will vote. So what we had was let me see let me see. Let me see. Dating while fat, weird Tiktok diet trends like water talk stuff unrelated to fat liberation diet culture, like celeb gossip or scandal? Or how to feel more confident in your body. And so how do we feel more confident in your body? 109 votes dating while fat 57 Weird tick tock diet trends 28 and stuff unrelated to fat liberation diet culture? 11 This is so interesting to me. Do you know why is because my highest downloaded episodes, it's kind of like talking about scandal.

Unknown Speaker 2:09

But maybe because it's not. It's scandal related to like fat liberation diet culture, maybe that's what it was. Maybe it was like, you want scandal about fat liberation diet? And maybe that's the question, right? I'm gonna Okay. Next time, I'll ask that question. Do you like the scandal and gossip about fat lib? Or is?

Unknown Speaker 2:29

Anyway, so if you want to get on this channel, there's gonna be a link in the show notes. I don't know how you I don't think you can get it get to the challenge. Unless you have the invite link. I don't think you can find it just on my Instagram profile. So anyway, it's gonna be in the show notes show notes.

Unknown Speaker 2:44

We're on episode 179 on my glob. So first fatty.com, forward slash 179. Or probably on the, wherever you're listening to this or probably a link somewhere.

Unknown Speaker 2:55

Yeah, so the reason why we are doing less podcasts is because we want to be able to support the show, and minimum not lose money making it which is a

Unknown Speaker 3:09

dream.

Unknown Speaker 3:12

Because it costs me money to produce a show, right? Because I have someone who edits the podcast. And then I have my admin assistant who posts it and post about it and blah, blah, blah. So we've got almost enough to pay for two podcasts a month. Now I was doing four. So that's a goal. I want to do one every week. And I was doing that for

Unknown Speaker 3:35

three years. So let's get back to that. So we're currently at 300 and debt $10 a month in subscriptions. And so if we get to 510, then we can do three episodes. And again, this is a bare minimum, this is like belly.

Unknown Speaker 3:56

This is not paying me this is just you know, it's probably not even enough. Probably not set the goal high enough, actually, because it's a kind of an estimate. Anyway, so if you'd like to show you like, you value fat liberation, and what I've been doing have done will continue to do in the fat lib space. And you you like this content, then go to the link in the show notes to go to Kofi which is the place where you can donate monthly or just one one off donation. But if you do the monthly for $5, you can get the size diversity Resource Guide, which is beautiful, amazing. So good. And then the more that you donate the more and you also get the science guide and blah, blah blah, depending on whatever level you subscribe to. So it's 510 or 20. But five is you get the get the good stuff. And yeah, and actually I was looking the first video podcast is a top top 5% downloaded podcast

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Normally, I'm always like, who listens to my podcast and that will last ads. Which is not true. It just sometimes it feels like that when I'm, you know if sometimes it feels like that when we're like, Oh, can we get to $300 in donations?

Unknown Speaker 5:14

But in reality, or in the top 5% Say, Yes. I'm gonna, I don't know, I'm gonna tell someone I just told you tell my mum or something. I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 5:25

Like a man basically life I can, you know, giant celebrity over her. Obviously, I'm not.

Unknown Speaker 5:32

Anyway, something happened this week. Something happened this week. And I when it happened, I was like, I need to tell you what happens because you'll get it. Probably. Yeah, you if you listen to this, you'll get it. If you listen to the podcast, you'll get it. So I'm looking after my neighbor's dog. They're on a honeymoon for a month. So I'm looking after their sweet sweet dog Bella for a month. Anyway, so maybe once a month, I go to Starbucks and a Starbucks. A block away from my house. Anyway, so I went to Starbucks, and I ordered two pup cups, which is a pup cup is like a puppy tuna, whatever you wanna call it. It's like a little shot glass with some, some cream in and then got my stuff, got the pup cups and then gave them to the dogs while I waited for my stuff. So put them out to the dogs. Bella fucking loves it Dougie. Dougie is an intuitive eater. So I don't think all dogs can be intuitive eaters, but he happens to be one. So he'll be like, Oh, I have a few licks and then I'm done. Maybe I might have some later. But you know, so he's not like a gorgeous type dog. But Bella loves the pup card. Apparently, she was just going bananas for it. So anyway, just not related to the story, just you know, dogs enjoying the pup cups.

Unknown Speaker 6:49

And so yeah, this guy would appear to be a middle aged sis hat white guy, is what I'm assuming. He said to me, something rude about giving the dogs pup cups, something about the ingredients. And so I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna ignore him. And I just like, Yeah, cool. And then he says, and it does that in humans, too. And so he was saying, I don't want to repeat what he said, because it's, I don't want you to feel the same way I did. But he was like, basically, something terrible is going to happen. And it happens in humans. And my brain just went switched of,

Unknown Speaker 7:32

oh, no, you don't, motherfucker. I'm not the type of person to shout. And I didn't shout at this guy. But I very firmly told him I said, Listen, I don't subscribe to diet culture. And you should really think twice before saying that to people that you don't know. I have an eating disorder, my eating disorder, my disorders are in. I'm in recovery. So but he doesn't need to know that. I have an eating disorder. And what you said to me, has really harmed me, that's really inappropriate. And he said, I will lie. And he said it about the dogs. And I said, No, you didn't you said and in humans, too. You need to think twice about what you say to strangers, because you do not know their relationship with food. I said some other things. And he probably said some other things. But you know, just around that kind of just, you know, when you like leaving, quote, unquote, argument, you're like, What did I say? I should have said this, you know, but I was really like, do not do that you have harmed me. And then I was like, turned around waiting for my my order to come. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry. And I started crying. And then I went outside and got my order and went outside and sat on some steps. And Bella was like, give me that fucking pub cup. The rest of the butcombe duble was like, I'm okay with the pub cup. And, you know, I had had a bit of a cry and then just carried on. And the reason why I was crying is because it was just so outrageous that this man was like,

Unknown Speaker 9:07

I'm gonna give this person advice about food, and they're probably going to be like, Oh, thank you so much. Oh, that's so great that you told me that, ah, or whatever he thought that I was going to react, you know, or if it was just like, Oh, I'm, I'm down for a bit of shame. And today, Sunday is a good day for shaming people, that I was just so angry and also upset that the, you know, the fears that we have as fat people. And the real fears are real fears. People are judging what you eat. If you if you there's no winning, right? There's gonna be people who judge. And luckily for me, because of the people that I have around me. I don't experience that in my personal life anymore, and I haven't for years. So this just

Unknown Speaker 10:00

felt so like, my, my, my defenses are down, right? Because I'm not, I'm not I've, I have that privilege of I have been able to help myself by not happy surrounded by that type of stuff. And so, you know, I'm just like, oh, the dogs are so happy, you know, it's a nice day. And this guy was just, you know, knife in the belly type thing. And I was just like, I am not having that shit. I am not having it. And I'm standing up to this guy.

Unknown Speaker 10:29

Which I mean, a lot of people wouldn't have and maybe if I didn't say anything to him, maybe I wouldn't have cried because, you know, I don't I don't like confrontation. I don't want to be having a debate with some guy in Starbucks. We're where there's people there watching. Hopefully the other people watching. We're like, God, that guy's a dick. Not like, what's this crazy person raising their voice about?

Unknown Speaker 10:52

But you never know, right? It's just not nice to be in that kind of confrontational situation. Anyway, so what it made me think of, of EU law is that I just thought, Well, I'm a fat liberationist. Right. I've been doing this for however many years, 10 years, I have been through a bajillion therapy sessions, I have been in therapy for years and years and years, I've worked on on confidence, I have worked on resiliency, I have worked on what to say to fat phobes I teach this stuff. And still, I'm a human. And this stuff hurts me, I was able to be like, Wow, that's fucked up. I can't wait to tell you a lot about it. And you know, tell other people and that afternoon, I had a fat clothing thing. So I got to be in fact community, which was beautiful. Anyway, and be like, girls, what was happened. And it made me think about you, and how long you might have been doing this work and how you might have people who in your life who were saying that who you know, is a family member or a friend or whatever, or this that happening to you could have caused you to literally die. You know, like, that could be the thing that makes someone spiraled deep into an eating disorder deeper into their eating disorder whenever it's so dangerous. And I just felt so angry that this guy was using his words as weapons. And he doesn't even he doesn't know, we might know. But he just did it. And a lot of people are out there and they don't have that same support network or, or don't have that ability to access therapy or, or a new to this or whatever. And they might not have been able to get out of that situation in a way that was, you know, turning the shame back on him. You know, and it could be like, Okay, well, I need to go on another diet, because this guy is saying XYZ, or whatever it is, could happen. Or I will I can't ever go to Starbucks again. And already I feel a bit, you know, myself is I feel a bit thinking about how people are judging me for the food I eat, or whatever of drinks I drink or whatever it like, as we know, type people, there's no winning, right? If I had a, you know, box of salad, you know, people might be like, oh, so who are you kidding? Or, oh, good for you. You're on a diet or if you have something which is perceived as unhealthy and it's like, Wow, no wonder they're fat. They're eating that. And it's just like, just leave me alone. Leave us the fuck alone. Anyway, so I just want to say if you are someone who experiences something like that, and um, you know, a lot of people are, I just want to send big love and hugs to you, you do you do not deserve that shame. Like, that guy probably has an eating disorder himself. If you saying the things that he said, and also, whatever way you react is fine, and normal. And think about you know, someone who's been doing who's someone who's so resilient. And I'm like, I'm gonna cry, you know, or you're gonna cry. And so if you haven't done the same, you know, had the same access to privileges I have, then this type of thing might really knock you which is to be expected is what I'm trying to say is is these types of things could be really knock you off. You're not you're off balance or not, you might be late, I hear it every fucking day very, I don't give a shit. And that's great day. But anyway, so another little update to the weego V saga. So we're had my episodes about we go we slashes Empik which is the new weight loss injections where we go over years as Empik is the medication that is previously prescribed only to people with diabetes. And so Doctors have been prescribing ozempic off label if you want to go list

Unknown Speaker 15:00

Do those episodes

Unknown Speaker 15:02

do because they're really interesting. But anyway, surprise fucking surprises Sarah black from the UK would say a new study has come out to show there is additional harm caused by weak Ovi in people who are not diabetic. So there's a link to a post on my Instagram which says new study ties weight loss drug we go V ozempic to serious gastrointestinal conditions. And trigger warning here mention of side effects suicide risk and censored Oh words in that post. So issues like pancreatitis, stomach paralysis higher among patients using GLP, one inhibitor medications.

Unknown Speaker 15:48

What we're seeing is that so I made a post, I reposted post about we go V about you know, is it a miracle drug, blah, blah, blah. Short a little while ago, a couple of weeks ago, and people were in those people commenting about, it's caused me stomach paralysis. And I've been seeing these comments because previously stomach paralysis was not on their list of side effects. Right? And I was like, Oh, so this is anecdotal data. And then this study came out

Unknown Speaker 16:21

last week, and I was like, ah, oh, really. And again, reminder, we go V is a higher dose, not the same dose taken by most people with with diabetes. And this, you know, these these side effects don't happen to everyone. Right. But we, you know, some are in and friend of the show, had said that article to me, and we mean, some are just like, it's just like watching car crash TV, if that's the right phrase of, you know, slowly, you know, people are taking drugs that are, are not studied on people like them, because they're semaglutide Is is, is the drug is studied in diabetics, right for use for treating diabetes, but we don't have long term studies, for using semaglutide to in people without diabetes in order to make them smaller, and we've got limited, limited information. And so it's kind of like a live experiment that's happening. So we're going to see different things coming out. One thing to know is if you are on if you're on weego V, and you're about to have surgery, you should let the surgeons know. And and come off it because it could. Let's see, did a little a the Institute for Safe Medication Practices Canada issued a bulletin last week after a patient who had been taking weekly semaglutide injection for weight loss, vomited a large volume of undigested food while waiting from anesthesia following orthopedic surgery. So you know, we don't we we stop eating the night before surgery because having food in your stomach is a risk because you could choke right, you can vomit and and that's dangerous. And so the food is sitting in the stomach. So perhaps this person you know, that's food from two days ago that's just sitting there you know, I'm just speculating but that's what how this drug works right is it slows digestion. So if you want to read the full post, just go to there's gonna be a link there for my Instagram

Unknown Speaker 18:40

in the show notes anyway, that's a long preamble today, but you know, I feel like there's some interesting things interesting news I cried foul but lol

Unknown Speaker 18:54

and a big a big heads up. We spoke about this in an episode maybe last episode of the episode before how if people are choosing to take we go through because they want to feel relief from the bigotry. The oppressive anti fat society that we live in, that's their business, right? Whatever people do to survive anti fatness is their business. We have body autonomy, you can just decide to do what you want. And also it's important to share new information about these drugs as we begin to learn more about them. So that people can be more able to consent when we have more information about what you know what they do. Alright, so because you asked for it, what do I do? How do I feel more confident in my body? Okay, so this is going to be kind of like let's do some homework type of thing. Or you can just listen and just do the homework in your brain. Or you can just listen and fuck the homework, whatever you

Unknown Speaker 20:00

Do you have body autonomy? Don't you don't do anything? So, so people, you know, this is a big thing, right? You know, I just feel really, I don't feel good, I feel bad. I wish I was smaller. I wish I was smaller. And then I would accept my body. And I just, you know, I'm preoccupied with thinking about my body and, and doing stuff to hide it and etc. Right. So this is a, this is an issue, body confidence issues is something that that so many people have. I mean, again, I've said this before, about, like, if people don't, if people haven't been brought up with anti fat bias, I weighed out, I feel like people don't have body confidence issues, you know, or haven't haven't previously overcome them to feel better now, then I'm like, Who are these people? So, you know, we will if you struggling with body confidence issues, you know, you're in a, you know, big group of awesome people in the same position. But I don't think we talk about it as much about like, what we're actually doing to hide ourselves or whatever. So anyway, so let's start out with, because I want to feel more confident in my body. So first off, we want to know what confidence means. So it's kind of a bit too ethereal. You know, like, I want to be happy. It's like, yeah, it is. That's kind of like, a direction we want to go. But what does that actually mean? Like how do you know, if you are more confident, what does more confident mean to you? And what it means to you might be different to what it means to other people. And so my way of expressing overcoming confidence issues in my body, is by wearing a bikini, and just being wearing a bikini and be like, Forget Oh, is my fat body and you are welcome for getting to see it. That's my idea of what feeling confident means.

Unknown Speaker 21:57

You that might not be you. And so what does it look like for you? And that's a big question. So let's work out how can we can work that out. So I want you to ask yourself, What things are you doing? Or not doing? Because of the way that you feel about your body? Let me repeat that. What things are you doing? Or not doing because of the way that you feel about your your body? I'm gonna give you some examples. So for example, the things that you don't do. Example, made these up. I won't wear things that show my arms.

Unknown Speaker 22:40

I'm not dating even though I want a partner. I constantly think about how people perceive my body.

Unknown Speaker 22:48

I have sex with the lights off.

Unknown Speaker 22:50

I won't let my partner touch my belly. I won't go swimming anymore. i As I've put on quote too much weight. So there are some things that you know someone could they don't do. I don't do these things. Maybe I've never done them. Maybe I stopped doing them. I don't do though. Things I do do. English is weird, isn't it? Things I do? Make excuses about joining friends on a hike. Only wear long tops that cover my bum. Only have headshots in my dating profile.

Unknown Speaker 23:24

Always wear a hoodie to hide even when I'm boiling hot. That was me. Oh my goodness. I feel like my body confidence issues affected my ability to pass school exams. Our school exams are in the early summer. And I would go with my gap hoodie, which in my mind stood for greasy and proud. My gap hoodie to the exam hall would not take it off. Even though I was so deeply uncomfortable and hot. And like How how did that make me be in a position to be able to concentrate on my exam? Probably a little bit less right? Anyway, okay, so next, eat my lunch in private, have a uniform I wear every day as I know I feel comfortable in it. And not an actual uniform. But you know, a lot of people will say to me, Oh, I wear my my my leggings and my hoodie. And you know, it's the same thing every single day. It's my uniform. These are not necessarily bad things. And I'll explain. I want you to ask yourself the question do we want to do you want to make changes to these things? So maybe some you do, maybe some you don't maybe suddenly help you survive in an anti fat world. So for example, say if you make excuses about joining friends for a hike because you think well if I go for a hike, then I'm going to be the slowest one there. I'm gonna be out of breath. They're going to be like, Oh my God, why are we having to wait for them? Baba Baba. So that's probably what's going through our minds right? And so could we do we need to change that may

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Maybe not, perhaps we have friends that we know are anti fat. Perhaps we have friends that we know are like hardcore into hiking and they are like, really advanced, perhaps we have friends that are really kind and are fat themselves, or we have friends who they're just they say it's a hike, but actually, they're just going for a bit of a stroll. And so you would probably be able to know that of all my friends Dick's

Unknown Speaker 25:28

are they going to leave me behind? You know? And so you might decide, you know, actually, my friends are awesome. I love being out in nature. And you know what, I really want to go with them. And so I'm just gonna tell them, I'm gonna voice my face to them. I'm gonna say, Listen, I don't want to be a burden. I'm worried that I'm gonna slow everyone down. And, you know, I'm worried the I'll be out of breath. And people will be like, oh, yeah, because you're fat. And, you know, things like that. And, you know, and then your friends were like, Oh, my god, yeah, me too. I've worried about that, too. But you know, we're, we go slow. And we have lots of breaks. And you know, whatever, right? Or you could be like, Nah,

Unknown Speaker 26:08

no, I just let them go on the hikes. And I'll just go on my own or not, or whatever. Or, for example, so you eat your lunch in private. So if you work in an office, you know that you could have really judgmental colleagues. And it's just not safe for you to eat your lunch in private in public. And so you might decide in and I'm just going to continue doing that, because it's good for my safety. If you have a quote, uniform, like set of clothes that you wear every day, it could be that it makes life easier for you, as you don't have to have any, you're not making decisions in the morning, and you feel good in that, that outfit, it really represents you. Or you can say, I don't feel good in that outfit. Actually, I want to wear things that express me better. But I feel like I'm stuck in a rut, and I'm scared to show my body off in different ways. So all those lists, so you've got the list of the things that you do do and the things that you don't do, because of the way that you feel about your body. Are there things there that you, you want to change or other things that are helpful for you because of your safety. So say, for example, I won't wear things that show my arms. So let's just use clothing as an example. I won't wear things that show my arms, I wear long tops to cover my belly. And really like I have a uniform that I always wear. But really, I don't feel like this really represents me. And I know that I'm hiding and I see, you know, people posting things on Instagram and, and they're in fat bodies, and they look really good. But but you know, their bodies not as fat as mine, or My bed is bigger than theirs on my bum is flat, or my tics are small, or whatever it is that you're saying, you know, but you've got this. You're like, I want to do it. But there's some barriers, right? Okay, there's some things coming up in your mind. So of those things, what things do you want to do? Or are there anything else, any other things that sound exciting to you that you might want to do that could express body confidence to you. So a lot of people might say, you know, I am going to do a boudoir shoot, or

Unknown Speaker 28:11

I'm going to instead of running from the changing rooms in the pool, I'm going to walk slowly in your whatever it is that that you feel that could express body confidence for you. We're going to turn those into smart goals. So smart goals, or whatever way that feels good to you. But SMART goal stands was specific measured. Jesus Christ, why am I broke my brain gone? Blank smuggles, a million times Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant and time bound, Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant and time bound. So the first one specific, that's why I said, you know, I want to be confident, that's not specific, right? So we won't achieve that thing of I want to be confident if we don't know like, where we're going. And how do we know that we've achieved that? I want to feel confident in my body. measurable. So how will we know? You know that we've achieved that thing again? Feeling it like? Yes, but can we have some type of measurements? Like I did that thing? achievable? Here's the thing that we want to want to think about is sometimes when people see you know, a video of me, for example, doing my TED Talk, where I take my clothes off on stage or just, you know, prancing around in a bikini being a dickhead they think that's so far out of where I am. And it's not inspirational. It's kind of like, well, I will never be that it might make people feel like shit. Maybe it is inspirational for some, but some people might feel like, I'm never gonna get there.

Unknown Speaker 29:50

People struggled to believe like, where I was, and how shy and unconfident I used to be because of what they see today. And so

Unknown Speaker 30:00

You don't need to think about like this big, ridiculous goal, just thinking about what is the next step for you. And so if it is that you want to wear,

Unknown Speaker 30:09

clothing that is more aligned with you, is taking the smallest step possible to get to that, you know, first little bit so it could be just browsing clothes online. You know, that's that first step. So anyway, so specific, measurable, achievable, were can you achieve it? Or is it something that you could probably achieve in five years, and you know, it's fine to have a goal that that's further out. But also we want to have goals, which are quick wins, so we can, you know, boost the confidence, relevant, or, you know, these are certainly relevant to what we're doing and time bound. So we want to have some goals, and when we want to do these things, right, so that we can move forward. Again, you might say, Fuck SMART goals, I hate them, they can suck my tests, call, whatever, if there's another way that you want to do it, that's good, you know. And so you might decide to get some smaller ones, maybe some bigger ones, and maybe some medium ones. You don't need to have like 57,000 goals, it could be that you just have 315, whatever. Next, all that barriers, that is going to make it hard for you to achieve those goals, or barriers that make feeling more confident in your body harder. And so let's think about in your life, who is who or what is supporting you to move towards body confidence, who or what is making a little bit more difficult. So for example, in your life, you might have a mum that's on a diet, your sister might talk about how ugly and fat she is, you might have a health problem that is associated with fatness or you're scared that you might get one because you have a health issue in your family. Maybe you have a partner that says that they're attracted to thinner people. Maybe you love watching trash trashy reality TV with only normative bodies in it, like love is blind, for example. Right? So these are barriers, we don't necessarily need to remove them, we might need to understand how we can navigate them. Or we could decide to remove them if the barriers are really just annoying and not helpful. And we will use the my formula which is remove, reduce or protect. So I've spoken about this in other episodes, but when we have these barriers, we're going to ask ourselves, can we remove the anti fatness? If not, can we reduce exposure to the anti fatness? If not, can we protect ourselves from the anti fatness in some way? So for example, mom is on a diet. So can we remove mum? No, we've just thought well, you know, you can. I'm not saying go and like gunned down your mum. Because she's like, well, you watch us. Fuck you, mom. You know? But can you some people do decide to remove people from their lives? And that's absolutely fine. But for most people, are we going to remove mum? Probably not. Can we reduce the amount of time that we see Mum? Maybe maybe not. Can we ask mum to stop talking about diets? Maybe maybe not depends on the your relationship dynamic dynamic? Can we protect ourselves from the things that mama say? Mama saying so it could be that you're you whatever you do choose to protect yourself, you know, change the subject.

Unknown Speaker 33:25

Listen to an episode of First party podcast, talk to your friend or therapist or whatever it is to protect yourself. Okay, so you might decide mom's she's a huge topic. Well, we'll, we'll tackle that later. Let's start with something that is a little bit easier. Okay, I love watching all these trashy TV shows. Me too. And so am I going to remove it?

Unknown Speaker 33:51

Well, they bring me happiness. But they also made me feel like shit. So shall I remove it? Maybe? Maybe not? Shall I reduce the amount of time I'm watching it? Maybe? Maybe not. Maybe I'll you know, watch a few episodes and then watch something else. can I protect myself. So maybe I'm watching that. And then I'm going to go on Instagram and look at pictures of awesome fat people to kind of help reset my brain. So you'll know, you'll know like, what should I do if you feel like they feel like barriers are coming up and up and up in your life and they're just really just what your mum says really just makes you just furious and really is difficult for you, then you know that you might need to take action there and try and come up with a way to either remove reduce or protect yourself. And so with the barriers to can we educate ourselves around certain pain points. So for example, a lot of people who say, Well, I'm scared that I'm gonna get diabetes, right. I'm scared that I'm going to not be able to run around with my kids. I'm scared them. And so for me

Unknown Speaker 35:00

That is a gift, that's your brain telling you, okay, I've got some learning to do around these areas. And so you would look into that specific thing. And educate yourself more around that and say, you know, you know, if I do have a bigger body, will I then automatically automatically become a terrible parent?

Unknown Speaker 35:19

No.

Unknown Speaker 35:22

Nope. If diabetes in my family, am I going to eat my way into diabetes? No, because that's not how diabetes work works. If I do get diabetes, can I survive? It? Probably,

Unknown Speaker 35:34

you know, is that something that I need to to help myself around in regards to education and talking to someone you probably right, and some barriers we just can't overcome? Right? So you might say one of the barriers is that I live in an anti fat world, which is an absolutely true barrier. Unfortunately, we cannot remove that right at this time, we might be able to reduce our exposure to it. And we might be able to protect ourselves from it. Right? So so we are always going to have these barriers to feeling more confident in our bodies, like that decayed in Starbucks. So what barriers? Can we help ourselves remove, reduce or protect? Right? So we've got our goals. And this is where people kind of stumble, right? We've got our goals, yeah, I'm gonna do this thing. And they're like, Oh, I'm just gonna read some more books. And I'm just gonna listen to some more podcasts. And I'm just going to, I'm just going to wait until I feel better. Before doing those things. Here's the thing is, I've caught I call that constant learning mode, constant learning mode and not taking action. So think about the way that we learn to swim. We cannot learn how to swim by reading a book, we can learn a theory about it. But eventually, we're going to have to get in the pool. Now, what we don't want to do is be like, well, I read a book about it. And so I'm just going to go in the deep end and be like, let's How about I drown? What happens a lot of times when people are like, I'm just gonna go and do this big, scary thing. And I've never done anything like it before, is they'll they'll traumatize themselves, you know? They were like, well, water is scary. I'm not doing that again. And so sometimes people will be like, Well, I tried where I, you know, I bought some short shorts and split crotch panties, and a peephole bra. And I went and went down to the post office, and people were like, Oh, shit, and I've never done that again, you know, and so, you know, there might be a bit much right. And so you might want to say, I'm gonna get shorts that go to my knees and just wear them around the house and see how that feels. And so well, that's what I call tinkling your toes in the water. So we want to go into the shallow end, we want to tinkle our toes. And so say if your goal is to wear different clothes, do exactly that. So the first step and so you have this big you know, the big step is wear clothes I want want to wear wear more daring clothes, whatever it is that you want. So I would say you want to break that down even more like what is a debt? What is daring clothes? You What are you? What are the clothes? And you could say, okay, a shirt with no sleeves, because I'm sweating my tits off with these fucking sleeves.

Unknown Speaker 38:17

Okay, so then that might be your goal. wear a shirt without sleep sleeves. And let's break it down a little bit more. wear a shirt without sleeves. In my house. Okay, cool. So that should go by three weeks from now. So what's the first step into search? Where to buy? Plus size clothes? Whatever, you probably know that. If you don't, the size diversity Resource Guide has hundreds of places to shop. You can get that from Koh Phi. And so then you can decide I'm going to order a few different things. And then I'm just going to try them on in my room. See how it feels? You did it? You did it. Right. No one has to say. Now you might say okay, well, I survived that, you know, the, you know, the hell didn't freeze over. No one called the police. I had my arms out. And I did it. Right. So the next step might be like, Okay, well, I'm going to just wear a sleeveless top around the house for an hour for two hours for the day. And then it might be like, Okay, next, I'm going to walk to the end of the street, and then run back and be like, Oh, my God. Next, I'm going to walk the dog for 10 minutes and see how that feels. And at any one point there, there could be a barrier that comes up. And so then you're going to support yourself. So the reality is, you know, a lot of times people say, Oh, you think people are looking at you but they're not. The reality is if you're a fat person, people could be looking at you and judging you. Some a lot of times they could be not who knows right? But depending on your levels of privilege and your

Unknown Speaker 40:00

If you have any other historically marginalized identities, then it's more likely that you're going to be a target for unwelcome experiences, right? You might go out in the street, and someone might be like, Oh, fuck you, or whatever, you look horrible or whatever. And so what can you do then to help yourself? If that does happen? If that does happen, would that be too much and just derail you? And so you know, right now, it's not safe. So, instead of being out in the, in general public, you're just going to, you know, meet a friend who's super safe for lunch, and just stay in that one place. And you know, that, you know, your friend is probably not gonna be like, Girl, look at your arms, whatever. So there's an, you know, taken away that black and white thinking of, you have to do this. And if you don't do this, and if you don't do some big expression of confidence, and you failed, or whatever, because it's complicated, right? The reality is, being a visible, happy fat person means that you're going to be attacked at some points. And that might not happen for a long time. Or it could happen on a daily you know, so he's kind of so this is you know, all like building confidence building resiliency during the toe tinkling. Next, we want to reassess. So what is what is tripping you up? What is fear, what feels good, what doesn't feel so good? What things are really triggering you. So for example, your clothes are tight, because you've put on weight. And that feeling of tight clothes is really difficult for you. You're scared of health stuff. So you want to lose weight, fear of judgment from others, the mirror, if those things are coming up, how can you support yourself to feel better or safer, and learn more about that particular thing. Something about the clothes thing, I saw a post from Mindful closet. The Post said, buying clothes that fit when you've gained weight is a signal to your body that you will trust it and will take care of it, no matter what I'm gonna read that again, buying clothes that fit when you've gained weight is a signal to your body, that you trust it and will take care of it no matter what. So a lot of times we have this you know fractured relationship with our bodies, because we're just like, Fuck you, you're a piece of shit. You're gross, and our bodies like Oh, bitch, I'm just trying to fucking get around, I'm feed you and like, keep your organs going. And you're just constantly giving me Hey, like, fuck you. And our clothes are tight, stop that I don't like that feeling of it on my skin, just buy some new clothes. And your brain is like, No, I'm not gonna buy some new clothes, because then that will mean that I'm fat. Or that will mean that I've gone over the edge into whatever or it could be, I don't have the money to or I don't, there is no accessible clothing for me, whatever. But if you can, I'd say go and go and get some clothes, that feel good, right? That could be nice. And that can be a way to help gain that that trust with your body.

Unknown Speaker 43:07

Another thing that's really helpful is focusing on what your body does for you versus what it is as an ornament to society. And really, oh my god, the list is, is endless, of the stuff that your body does for you. And also recognizing there are people who are chronically ill and disabled, who might not be able to have that experience of being like thank you body for doing this because they might be having a really shit time had a shit life with their body. And holding that to. So again, getting out of, of black and white thinking. So finally, if if that type of stuff, you know, taking those steps and working towards taking actions to to do things that you're not letting yourself do right now because of the way that you feel about your body. And doing those things and seeing how that feel. If that's really not feeling good for you, then I would say that you you could if it's available for you get extra support from a therapist or a body image coach or someone that can help you unlearn anti fat bias, whatever it is, you know, anti diet dietician, fat, positive dietician, whatever it is, right? Because sometimes getting someone else's opinion really helps us see things that we can't perceive, helps us perceive things that we can't perceive ourselves, you know, shit, like,

Unknown Speaker 44:35

my therapist, you know, says things all the time. And I'm like, Oh, how can I not see that? Again, I have privileged to be able to go to afford afford to go to a therapist. But it could be even that you're just talking to your friends and say I'm really struggling with this thing. Can we talk about it? I can really you know, if you have a friend who is not going to be like, Yo, oh my god, you know

Unknown Speaker 45:00

I want to get diabetes, oh God, you know,

Unknown Speaker 45:03

fat people are terrible, you know, don't don't talk to that friend.

Unknown Speaker 45:07

Or it could be that if you don't have access to, to friends that you go and find community online,

Unknown Speaker 45:14

fat community is the best. And a reminder about this, this study that we talked about how to protect yourself from anti fat bias, a big part of that is feeling like you're a part of the group of fat people, you know, you're, you're, you're in the in group of fatness versus trying to get out of that group. Right. That's helpful for people. And also, part of white supremacy, culture is a sense of urgency, right. And so a lot of folks have been conditioned to expect instant results, especially when we've been dieting all of our lives, and it's like, lose several 37,000 pounds in 12 minutes. And, and so, you know, you might be doing these things, and you might still be be struggling for a while. And, and that's normal, right? Because think about how long you have struggled with not loving your body with dieting with anti fat bias, probably decades. Right? And so, if we're able to turn this around in, you know, years, that's astonishing, right? And, you know, I say that a lot of times, it is a lot quicker, because people are really kind of, I'm doing this, I'm doing this, versus where a lot of times just soaking up anti fatness, you know, we're not like, Oh, I'm going to I'm going to do a course on how to how to hate fat people more, you know, but you might be like, Oh, I'm going to do a course on how to stop, you know, unlearn anti fat bias. So. So, you know, I don't want to say it's going to, you know, if you take it to, you know, you've been alive for four decades. So it's going to take you another four decades to not hate yourself. You know, it's probably this probably not going to be like that. But also give yourself time and record recognize how far you you you go. Because I think a lot of times we can poopoo our achievements. I know I do. I was at a party a couple of weeks ago. birthday party with a bouncy castle. Yes. From my friend, Michael, who turned 40. And I'd seen some friends who hadn't seen in a while and they were like, Oh, my God. So you run on a BBC show. That's cool. And oh, you wrote a book? And oh, that's cool. And you did? And I was just like, Ah, you Yeah, I was shared.

Unknown Speaker 47:46

And they were like, are you hearing yourself and ask?

Unknown Speaker 47:52

How easy it is, you know, I'm just like, I'm embarrassed by my book now. Because, you know, there's some words in there that I wrote that I wouldn't use now. And that's not the direction that I would go. Now if I wrote a book and, you know, brutal, you know, therefore, I'm a piece of shit.

Unknown Speaker 48:11

Therefore, I don't deserve to alter another word in this space. Because in the past, I was at a different place. It's just so silly. It's so silly. Yeah. And so really celebrating these, these places that you're going and the direction that you're going because it is wonderous. that any of us are able to escape, diet culture and anti fatness, like holy shit. Can you imagine how hard that how hard that is? In the episode that I did on dye culture is diet culture, a cult.

Unknown Speaker 48:52

I talk about how in most high control environments like a cult, like M L M, multi level marketing schemes, like diets a lot of time, but not not the same or dies. When you get out of that high control environment. Your loved ones and society are like, crew. We're so glad that you got out of that environment that wasn't good for you.

Unknown Speaker 49:24

Please welcome come back into society. Let's help you unlearn all of that, that stuff that you were, you had learned and they really took advantage of you and you were a victim to this. This brainwashing, right. And so a lot of experience, not everyone's experience with high control environments like that. But on the whole generally, society is like that supporting people who leave fat people who leave diet culture, do not get that support.

Unknown Speaker 50:00

From general society, they get told, get back in there, try harder, you need to be controlled more. And so it can be so hard to leave diet culture, especially with the promises, to put promises of fake promises, you know, and we can look at high control environments and be like, well, you know, in an MLM, you know, it's probably not true that you're going to become a millionaire or a billionaire, like, probably not true that, you know, there's gonna be some Armageddon day and the world's gonna end and you know, the good people are going to be saved. That's probably not true. It's probably true. If you've just tried hard enough, then you could become thin. That's probably true. It's not though, right? So anyway, so that, that all that to say that, it's wrong to say the word miracle, but it's remarkable that you're even here. And that that is something that somebody should be celebrated really, really, really, really should be celebrated. So just celebrate yourself today, I'll pay discover, give yourself a Go and wear a hat, okay, just wear any hats, just wear hats. And I don't know, drink or drink, or whatever, to celebrate how awesome you are, that you're here. And that you're healing, and that you are in that direction of often been. And also, again, with this black and white thinking, you are probably not going to arrive at this destination where you're like, holy shit, I am so confident in my body, it's never going to change. I've arrived and Oh, life is good. Like, you might have moments like that, you know, obviously there's, you know, lots of moments where I've just been like, Fuck, yeah, I'm gonna mess and then you have decayed guy and Starbucks. And then you like,

Unknown Speaker 52:03

sad, you know.

Unknown Speaker 52:05

And then that thinking that we we've been learned and we've been taught and learned about, you're in a bad situation you're going to get into a good situation in life is going to be great diet culture, white supremacy, culture, all sorts of different things that

Unknown Speaker 52:21

systems of oppression that we've learned that from.

Unknown Speaker 52:24

And the truth is, it's, it's more fluctuating. And it's more like, here's what it's more like, you're just not thinking about it that much. You're not thinking, Oh, my goodness, is that person looking at me, and oh, my goodness, is my is my body bad and Oh, my goodness, I really should lose weight. If I lose weight, then I'm going to be better, more attractive. It's just not that much of it is just not in your mind as much you just more like, I want to do a poo, or

Unknown Speaker 53:01

what should we make for lunch or, you know, when, you know, whatever it is, and this is saying with intuitive eating, right. So once you've healed your,

Unknown Speaker 53:10

your, if you if you if you've been a diet or whatever,

Unknown Speaker 53:15

and you're an intuitive eater, you're just not thinking about food as much. And for me, that feels good, right? So not just it just not being a thing. And then you'll have times where you're like,

Unknown Speaker 53:28

an amazing mother, like, ah, and then you'll have times where you're like, I don't feel good today. And that, you know, there's just that's just the reality of being a human being with a gorgeous brain with a wrinkly brain, not a smooth brain. Because you because you're not as smooth brained, then you're gonna have ups and downs, but generally speaking, like the, the,

Unknown Speaker 53:49

the level, what you're feeling about, your body is just raised, and it's kind of like, you know, like a zigzag. And before those zigzag would be really kind of extreme peaks and lows, maybe, because you've dieted and you've lost weight and you feel amazing and then you put weight back on and all but you buy clothes that you think fairly look good in and then you see a photo of yourself in those clothes and and you think, Oh, what was I think and thinking I look good, because I look like shit. And then you do this and do and so it's like a extreme zigzag, but then the, the line kind of being lower on the body confidence and then doing this type of work. The line is more smooth, undulating, like a smooth voice on the radio, and at a higher level, right, less less of those peaks and valleys. But again, you know, a lot of this work is complicated. There's lots of different factors to it, you know, levels of, of privilege and access and, and so if you need help, reach out to someone, even if it's community online, or if it's a professional, whatever. And you deserve to feel that peace in your body and not be thinking about how you're not good

Unknown Speaker 55:00

Get enough all the time cuz that shit sucks. And it's boring. Oh, thing all the stuff that you could do. If you're not thinking thinking about food or thinking about how you're a terrible person. Yeah, I should take that advice in regards to terrible person, you know, what I'm going to do is I'm going to do because I've talked to my therapist about this a lot is I'm going to do an F, I think next episode I'm going to do is on that BBC documentary and go and deep dive into shame around

Unknown Speaker 55:30

what people experience being on reality TV, because my experience that was something I think four years ago, and I think about it, so often, the shame, the shame, the shame from it, and how I'm a bad person because of that documentary. And so I'm going to talk about it. Next episode or whatever in the future. I'm going to do some research about other people's experiences and ah, because shame cannot survive the light.

Unknown Speaker 56:05

Shame cannot survive the light. I think that's Brene Brown quote, brainy Brown is a fat photo that will take that quote from her stop being a fan by Brene Brown, I did run a brown course and she's like, Oh, we can see all the ills in the world because people are fat and you know, they eat a piece of dark chocolate.

Unknown Speaker 56:22

What? What Brene Brown No, that's not true. Go away. I mean, a fat person. Fat people and then people eat a square of dark chocolate but you know fatness is not a sign that the of the of the ills of the world Yeah, she was she was like, you know, we have addiction. We have fat people. What? What?

Unknown Speaker 56:44

We have addiction. We have brown haired people. That what? What are you talking about? Brene Brown a stop that stop at you. All right. Well, if you enjoyed this episode and you got anything from it, feel free to subscribe to me on cofee link in the bio. If you do not have the means to subscribe. Why not leave a Chico Riverview High.

Unknown Speaker 57:11

Here what I was looking at more reviews and we haven't had to I feel like the only time I get reviews is when I say hey, write me a review.

Unknown Speaker 57:18

Do this thing go. And so I haven't asked people to write a review in a while. So if you want to, if you can be involved, if you can be involved

Unknown Speaker 57:29

write a review. Let me read the last one that we got this this website called listen notes, which will give you all the reviews from all around the world because you know you have different played in different platforms. And you know if there's a review on Apple, Germany, it won't show up on Apple, Australia, whatever. Oh, actually, we're in top 2% of the global rank

Unknown Speaker 57:54

actually wasn't listened. Notice that just just tells you how popular podcast is. It's chattable That tells you the reviews. Okay, last review is from June 2023. Empowering five stars. Vinny is great and the show is very empowering. well researched, funny, everything you'd want. Thank you. I can't tell you how much Vinny has helped me with my self esteem and recovering from my disordered eating. Oh, thank you. Five stars. Great show. I love you so much. Thank you. They have great topics and have a way of presenting that is easy to understand and fun to listen to and make me laugh so much great information for anyone on an intuitive eating journey that are looking, looking to work towards fat liberation. Thanks, Vinny.

Unknown Speaker 58:41

Thank you, ah, those reviews really make my brain happy. Anyway, if you want to write a review, we're at 4.9 stars from 159 ratings. Oh, there was one. I think there was a one star thing saying Vinnie should stop singing.

Unknown Speaker 59:01

Which is made me saying Oh, and someone else didn't have to review saying I like it when you say

Unknown Speaker 59:07

he's always gonna. It's always gonna be people who like what you do and don't like what you do. And it sounds like a lot of people like what I do, which I really appreciate. And if they don't, they're probably not telling me or they're telling me and I'm just deleting the comments, or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 59:21

Deleting the messages rather.

Unknown Speaker 59:24

So thanks for hanging out with me today. If you want to tell me about what you want podcast episodes in the future. Go to that. Instagram channel thingy. thing. I'll put a pole in. Do you want industry gossip? I have I have gossip. I just don't share it. I don't know if I will. I'm not saying that. I'm gonna be sharing gossip. Okay, why? There's some gossip that I will like, share about because, you know, everyone's talking about it. But there's other gossip that, you know, I'm too scared to share about because I don't want people I

Unknown Speaker 59:58

don't want me to gossip

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

Guide Oh, anyway, all right, let it go. Stop rambling. I Tassie by.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:09

Hope you have a good day. And I will see you in a while alligator stay fierce, Fatty, go bowling

Episode 178 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 178. Coming to terms with an anti-fat world listener questions. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Welcome back to the show fears fatties and fat allies. So glad to have you here. I decided to cut this episode into two because it got to be so long. So this is part two of listener questions. So, I guess I'll get right into the questions. If you enjoy the show. Donate on Kofi. Kayo FYI, link in the show notes link to everything that I'm talking about. will be in the show notes. 4177 and 178. So if you get confused, and they'll just be there a car? Yeah. Okay, let's do it. Next question us. Do you have any advice for finding a primary care provider or an OBGYN? That won't attribute all my problems to fatness? Marielle. Okay, so, if you're looking for an OBGYN in regards to fertility, we've got Nicola salmon fat positive fertility, she has a book, she's got different things. So if that's part of what you're looking for, totally might not be. But there might be help there. Well, not not might be there's 100% of the help there. And she probably has community and resources. But we do have lots of different lists of weight neutral healthcare providers. In the US, unfortunately, it's very US centric. So there's links to like, you know, Mary Lambert, the singer. She's got a whole spreadsheet of providers. That's been contributed what to by different people. We've got one from Christy Harrison, we've got one called fat friendly doctors got another one fat friendly health care providers. We've got a article from self.com how to find a fat friendly doctor. But let me tell you how I do it is any healthcare need. I have, for example, yesterday, I had my ingrown toenail removed, if anyone's thinking about it, if anyone has chronic an ingrown toenail, going through this procedure, because I don't know what do what you want. But if for me, the thought of it was worse than the actual thing by miles. And I'm not really that squeamish, but I went to the to get a pedicure and there was a new person, they said, It's okay for a new person to do you're a trainee to do your feet. And I said, Yeah, no problem. And she cut down into my nail and immediately some ran over and was like, No, don't do that do do that. And I was like, I know what that's gonna turn into. I mean, you know, it's an oxygen, whatever. So for the last 18 months, I've been dealing with chronic ingrown toenail on my on that foot. And so eventually, I looked in, there's a fat club, Vancouver Facebook group, fat club, Vancouver, just searched podiatrist. Actually, I saw Yeah, per diet podiatrist. And we had some recommendations. Now, I'm lucky I live in Vancouver, live in Canada. So Canada, more likely to find people, Vancouver, big city, more likely to find people. So I go by rapid personal recommendations. So you might not have a fat group in your location, you might not be in a city, you might be in some location. That's, you know, there's only one person there. Are there any groups, Facebook groups, you know, like, any Facebook group that's in your location that you can ask a question, hey, does anyone have any experience with and then put like, thanks, I don't need any weight loss advice. You might not get anything. So some people, they might have choices might have to be found for someone with lots of all these resources that we have. Some you might not depending where you are. You can get there some cards called don't weigh me cards, and they are free. There's a link in the show notes don't weigh me cards. And so it says like a business card and it says please don't weigh me unless it's really medically necessary. You can email them beforehand or call them or whatever. I don't know what I said whether whatever carrier pigeon may or whatever, and say, Hey, I don't want my weight discussed on You can take someone with you to act as an advocate, so that they can say, hey, we're not going to be talking about weight, you can decide that you that's not going to work for you. And you might just smile and nod when they say, did you know that you're fat? Have you ever considered weight loss? You know, and so you might be able to find something if you're in the US probably have a better chance of finding people. And even if people are not expressly saying that they're fat positive, they might not mention weight. So if that's the case, tell people to tell someone who has one of these lists. And yeah, I read that article How to find a fat friendly doctor. So next question. Hello, I do have a question. I hope it isn't offensive. I'll try to word it as kindly as possible. I'm wondering, by the way, it's not really offensive. I'm wondering what you think about the suppose correlation between health and beauty. In other words, a person must be healthy to be beautiful. Is this true? In any sense? This is one justification I have seen used at times to claim that fat people are unattractive people will cite biology as an explanation. We live in a world that is obsessed with physical appearance and ties it to our work as human beings. So that message can cause a lot of pain if one is deemed to be ugly. Sorry, if it's weird, and I hope that I hope I worded it clearly. Thank you for taking the time to read if you got this far. Yeah. So in response to this, you know, when someone says I'm not attracted to fat people, because they're unhealthy, and that is a part of my biology, because I'm a man. I'm an Alpha Man. It's just, it's given me what is it? Jordan? Jordan Peterson. And what's another decade that's in jail at the moment? Can't remember his name anyway, dickhead. Yeah, it makes you think what I've got to do, I got to do with it. Well, I'd have got to do who you want to have sex with. Because you cannot look at a fat person and see their health status. Like I don't know if these people have like these magical goggles that it's like, okay, let's do an x ray and MRI and test the blood and lalalalala you know, when they're like, Atlanta says results come back. And it turns out that that first, that person is unhealthy. They don't know anything person, like someone who's straight size, how can they know what their health status is? What I think what they're people are confusing for health is actually bias. Bias. It's based in anti black racism ableism, colonialism, colonialism, etc. Also, if they want someone who is physically fit, can you know, biology because of biology? Well, fat people can do that too. Right? Fat people are Olympians fat people are athletes, fat people are world record breakers. But if you were to ask that same fatphobia would cite biology. Oh, well then is that fat athlete attractive? Then come up with some other some other excuse outside of how are you? No, no, you know why? And I, you know, I'm just you know, I'm, I'm just attracted to it's, it's bullshit. Is is just bias masked as biology. Really. I was watching this about this British boxer, like, called the Gypsy King. I think he's probably quite problematic. But I watched his documentary about him. And if you saw his body type, you'd be like, No, that is not a fit person. You know, if you saw his body type in your fat foam, you would not think twice you just be like, Oh, he's a tall person. But he's like, undefeated world champion boxer something bla bla bla best in the world ever. Lalala and I find it it's funny because he's a lot of his opponents are all like really buff people. And he's just not let's say he's fat. I mean, like, he's obviously a heavy, heavy person, because he's, he's tall and even if he was fat, but if you think about all right world, strongest men, they have huge big tummies right? weightlifters and javelin throwers. And, you know, they're the best at what they're doing. But no, it's not that type of fit that I'm looking for. I'm looking for like, you know, someone who's like a gymnasts you know?

All so it's not fitness. It's not biology. It's what is that thing called? Anti fat by yours. Okay, so next question. Hey, Vinnie. Hopefully this isn't redundant. This is the last question. By the way. Hopefully, this isn't a redundant question. Also a really good question. Hopefully this isn't a redundant question. Sorry. There's something I hear from a lot of clients is a desire to lose weight, not from an aesthetic point of view anymore, but to physically fit into the world. I have one client in particular who's recently expressed sadness of not being able to write her sister's peloton because of the weight limb It's not going to a Broadway show because of the seat size, having difficulty finding clothing, she's quite tall etc. Of course, I hear concerns like this from many clients. But these are just some recent examples that stick out. I guess the question would be, how to deal with cope with grief, not fitting into the world physically? Not sure. They're not sure there's really a solution. But I've heard that concerns many times. And now it would be awesome to have an episode about it. Sorry if this is redundant, and you've already had similar, similar episode out, Lauren. So I don't think I've had an episode specifically about this. But then again, we're up to 177. Listen, I can't remember the episodes I've done two weeks ago. So unless it's unless the topic is weight loss surgery. Apart from that, I'm like, do the heart because I have like four on weight loss surgery. So it's like, it's in my brain now. But, you know, 177 episodes, I'm like, fuck, what is it I'm talking about. And if I can't remember, sure is shit you don't remember because you know, you're not the one doing the, you know, the research around it and all that it's over, I can't remember you can't remember. So therefore, it's good to talk about these things all the time anyway. So even if I have had an episode about something, I'm happy to redo things, because there might be new, new things that have come out. And also, we forget, right? So to answer this question, this is so hard. And the question being, what do we do? How do we cope or deal with not fitting into the world physically. So this is hard, because life is harder being fat, there's, there's no doubt about that. Also, for me, life is awesome, being fat, in lots of ways, and also harder being fat, and in lots of ways. But thing is, what a lot of fat people hear is, just love yourself, just love your body, and everything will be great. And while that could be true, the reality is that it can be very, very difficult. And depending on your level of privilege, if you have have other historically marginalized identities, then that experience is going to be different and potentially more difficult. And, and so we don't want to deny that that very real reality. For me, the shift was life being hard because I am bad. My body is bad, and I need to lose weight versus society is fucked up. And that's that shifting of the blame was a crucial step. And I did an episode five episodes ago ago, episode one second to the science of protecting ourselves from anti fat bias. So that episode looked at the looked at a study that showed that those who are in a marginalized group this this study, specifically about fat identity, if they were outside of that in group, as in, I'm fat, and I hate being fat, and fat is the worst thing that's ever in the world. Versus Okay, well, I think I can maybe learn about fat liberation and, and maybe I'll go to some fat clothing stores. And maybe I'll join some Facebook groups. And maybe I'll learn how to live in a fat body without shame and stigma and internalizing that stuff. Because you're never going to be away from shame and stigma, right? And so those who were identified with that in group of fat, so people who were like, I'm fat, and fuck it, I don't care what you think. Or even I'm fat and I tolerate my existence. So it doesn't even have to you don't have to even be celibate, celebratory. You can be tolerating your fat identity, versus those who are actively trying to distance themselves and get away from that fat group had different experiences of anti fat bias, one internalized it more than the other and the one who's not in the in group of fat are the ones who internalize it more. So. What I find with a lot of clients that I do one on one work with is a lot of them are in that out group, right? They've been working to get away get away from fatness. Maybe they've started intuitive eating and they've gained weight. And now they went from a straight size person to a fat person. They are not in that in group of fat people like they do not want to be fat. Or they're really struggling to deal with it or they're new to fat acceptance, fat liberation, and haven't got in the in group yet. So the desire to lose weight is normal. It's I mean, if someone was like, you know, I feel bad, I want to lose weight. And I'm like, who, you know, how many people in the world don't want to lose weight? You know, you're a weirdo. You know, like, someone like me, who says, you know, I'm happy to be fat, you know, really, we're a weirdo. Because most people don't want to lose weight, because that's what society tells us to do to people who are in probably feminine, or maybe non binary bodies. And men, a lot of times been told either to lose weight or become more muscley. So what I want people to know is, it's normal to want to lose weight. And also, you have the body autonomy to decide what is best for you. So I'm going to make I've made this little graph, and I'm going to chart rather and I'm going to, I'm going to make it into an Instagram post, which is talking about, like, what could happen if we attempt weight loss, and what could happen if we decide to stay the same, same size. And so why I'm talking about that is, perhaps people are feeling a little bit helpless and frustrated and hopeless. When they're like, Well, you know, the world world is shit. And so, you know, I don't want to lose weight, because of what I look like, because I want to access access privilege, which is absolutely fine and understandable. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about attempting weight loss to access privilege, and what that could look like and the benefits of that. And also talking about deciding to stay the same size or not do anything and you know, you might stay the same size, put on weight, lose weight, whatever, but not attempt, not attempt weight loss. So if you attempt weight loss, you might have temporary relief from anti fat bias. So I would ask you, like if you're struggling with this, maybe you write this down for yourself, you know, you make a little chart of attempt weight loss, don't attempt weight loss. And, and you will be able to answer this much better. In the past, has attempting weight loss caused you to become smaller temporarily. So so write that down, so or maybe, I don't know, like, what is your experience be. So temporarily relief from anti fat bias, okay, so temporary relief from anti fat bias. So if you don't attempt weight loss, there's no relief from your body size.

From anti fat bias from having a smaller body, you can get relief from anti fat bias in other ways, but not because your body is more socially acceptable. So if you attempt weight loss, you might be sad and frustrated, when you gain the weight back. If you don't attempt weight loss, you don't have to deal with regaining weight after losing it. If you attempt weight loss, there's a risk of engaging in disordered eating. Perhaps you've seen that in yourself before. And if you don't attempt weight loss, you can continue to practice intuitive eating. If you attempt to weight loss, you're able to access the world with greater ease, temporarily probably. So you'll be able to buy clothes and fit into chairs and access health care. So that's a benefit, right? If you don't attempt a weight loss, you have to learn how to deal with a world that is anti fat. That's difficult. But on the other hand, the attempting weight loss, you might have to learn how to deal with the world that's anti fat anyway, when you inevitably gain weight back, if you attempt to weight loss, you might be able to access life saving, life saving or changing surgery treatments like IVF treatments, gender affirming surgery, etc. knee replacements. And if you don't attempt weight loss, you you have to fight to find a health care provider who will still operate on you at your current size. And this is harmful and stressful. If you attempt to weight loss, there's more options for people who would date you. But you might be scared that they'll leave you when you gain weight. If you don't attempt weight loss you might be frustrated with with fewer options, and experience stigma. But you might know that your size is not an issue for new partners because they're dating you and you have the current body that you have. You might talk about these things with partners and say listen, I'm fat positive. If you attempt weight loss, you might have to engage in life threatening and life changing means to lose weight like surgery, or injections. And if you don't attend a weight loss, you don't have to risk your well being to become probably temporarily smaller. So you see how there's no like this decision is really deeply, deeply complicated. I don't put for me want to engage in attempted weight loss from Me, I know my history, which is eating disorders, I know the science, which is that, if I do, I will probably be causing physical harm, mental harm to myself. And I will also going to be experiencing harm when the weight becomes comes back on. But also, I am not in need or seeking, life saving, life affirming life changing treatment that I cannot access at my current size, I have found a way that it is tolerable to live in this society, in my current body size, with all of the privileges I have, I am white, I am British, my middle aged, I working class, I am non disabled, I have access to therapy, you know, so I have all of these privileges that someone else might not have access to. And so for someone else who lives next door to me, they might decide that attempting weight loss is the best thing for them. Because it is not tenable to live in a world that is so deeply anti fat, or because they need access to health care. And they can't get that they currently. And all of that is fucked up. Right. But someone said, I someone said on the internet, I can't remember it was like, What is your grift? What is your grip? What is it that you're doing in order to survive? And so the person the PERT, the point of the person's video was like, Girl, women who use their sexuality to get ahead in the world. They said, she said that's their grift. My grift is to choose to not engage with using my sexuality to entice men. My grift is something else my grift is doing this, you know, so for me, my grift is we're literally working in this field, right? That's my grift, Microsoft is surviving by being so deeply in fat liberation, that I can't go down that rabbit hole of despair. And I don't feel that despair, right? And so whatever it is that you decide to do this your choice, right. So that feeling of autonomy is helpful for me. So spelling it out, if life is so untenable for me as a fat person, then I can try and pursue relief. or be it most likely temporarily. Or, you know, you can write out this list and be like, you know, actually, I've decided, you know, weighing the pros and cons that I'm just going to keep going with this and see what happens. Also, I hear from people who are new to fat liberation, and literally don't know of all the resources out there, like someone who's always shopped in a straight size store, and they will think that there is no store that carries fat clothes. And that's not fashionable. They might be like, oh, yeah, I know that there's a store in the in that local mall called Maureen's and it's only close for, you know, 70 year old people and above and it's not really my thing. And so they might have be catastrophizing saying, There's no way that I can live if I can't get, you know, clothes that fit me or if I can't access this on that I can't go on a peloton if I can't go to a Broadway show, what's the point in living and as a fat person I need to become thin. So that that person might not know the resources that fat liberation is have created? And there's lots and and it comes with? Yes. And so, yes, you're probably as a fat person, not going to be able to walk into 99% of the stores and try on a piece of clothing. But yes, and there's also hundreds of stores online. Wait, for example, in that size, diversity resource guide. I had to stop tracking all of the stores that had that carry plus size. But here's another caveat. Up to what point if you're a size 28 or below, then you'll be fine. Or, you know, when I say fine, you'll find stuff. It might not be it's definitely not as you know, accessible and be more expensive. And when I say fine, it's a kind of

your you'll survive. But if you're a poor person and also above a size 28 Then it becomes really difficult. So then again, that's where we go back to, well what are we going to do? Are we going to attempt weight loss are we going to attempt to access the world and find ways to make it easier for ourselves. So holding the holding the unfair and so with this with a clothing example. So, one, it's not fair that there aren't in person stores and to also there may be options that I am not aware of. So another thing I find helpful is talking about privilege. It can be when people are new to identifying with fat, so someone could be fat all their life, but not identify as fat in the liberatory way. So if they're new to identifying as fat, they might not realize the level of privilege that they have. And when they realize how deeply privileged they are, it can help them realize that they can live and thrive as a fat person. And so I will show people the fat spectrum from from Asher the fat lip, so you can just Google fat spectrum, ash from the fat lip, created a post that's been around the internet for years. And so when I talk about myself, I'll say, Hey, listen, I am a medium fat person. And so because I'm a medium fat person, this is how it's difficult for me. And also, this is how life is easier for me, versus if I was a bigger fat person. And also I have white skin and I'm non disabled, etc, etc, etc. And so and then asking, like, how does that make them feel about where they fit on the fat spectrum? If they even do, and this might be difficult, like if you're a protect practitioner, and you're in a straight size body like this might be if you're like, Hey, I'm the size two. And you know, that, you know, a lot of clients might be like, well, thank you. So you might say, hey, something that I've I know can be helpful is to understand our levels of marginalization, and our levels of privilege and to understand kind of like where we fit fit in the world. And one of the resources is having a look at the fact spectrum is anything coming up for you. Another thing are the fears they have based in anti fat bias, like they could be really sad about not being thin because they think they'll never be loved, or will die or will not be able to keep up with their kids and there'll be a bad parents. So what things are based in reality and what things are our fears based in bias? If they're based in reality, can we find solutions? So, a Broadway show? So Broadway show? Can you ask for the accessible seating, a lot of theaters will have wheelchair seating and so it would be appropriate for a fat person to ask for that seating. Something like flying in a plane, ask for a seatbelt extender, or join the group flying while fat on Facebook and get loads of tips from there about what airlines to fly with not to fly with. So for example, when I went to Ireland, I flew with American Airlines, which I didn't know are absolute dogshit for size, they've got some of the smallest seats in the world. I mean, the seats aren't between airlines aren't that dramatically different. They're all tiny. I think American Airlines is 16 inches wide a seat and then other airlines would be 17 or 18. You know, so they're all share basically but also I was sat in one of the seats where they don't have movable armrest and also they have metal dividers because it's at some fancy anyway. And so I had to ask for a C ballistic extender. So if I was in my fatness is really awful stage, that would be devastating for me. But I just was like, Oh, I'm so pleased. I know that that resources available to me. I'm so pleased I not don't feel shame. I'm so pleased that I'm not like putting my safety at risk by by pretending that it's buckled and putting my coat over myself and being like, Oh my God, I hope I don't die. Anyway, so keeping up with the kids as an example. So do you need to match a child's energy level 24/7 To be a good parent? Are Disabled Parents not good parents? Is it true that you can engage with your kids physically? If you are fat, while losing weight temporary help with being a good parent? Or could it be harmful to your kids them seeing you engage in diet culture is having a parent who models body acceptance and intuitive eating more helpful or equally as helpful as a parent who diets but can run for an hour. So some of some sometimes people beliefs can be based in in fear and bias. Sometimes they can be based in reality and if they're based in reality, what can we do to mitigate that? And in some cases, there's nothing that we can do. In some cases, you might go to a Broadway show are an awful Broadway show. And when they say sorry, we've already filled the accessible seating or there is no accessible seating, or you don't feel comfortable to ask for the accessible seating, or you couldn't even get to the Broadway show, because there is no airline that carry someone of your size, even if you bought the first class plane ticket, you know? And so in those situations, how can we what can we do to support our mental health in those situations, right. And none of this to diminish the harm that living in a fat phobic world causes. But just to say that there's hope, life for me as a fat person is harder, in ways that if I was sin, but I would not change it. I hope I'm fat forever. I feel like I am in this cool club. I like being fat. I feel like have access to something the fat community that not everyone has. And that is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Like just last week I went to nettles tail is a swim swimsuit company in Vancouver. And they carry 4x, two extra small. And they threw a pool party. And I went with another fat person who was on the internet in Vancouver and we became friends from being fat people in Vancouver. And and then almost everyone at the pool party was fat. And we ate food and had ice lollipops and was in the water and was like, Oh, where do you get your swimsuit from? And that fat community was so fucking joyful and the thin people who were there, we knew that they were fat positive because they were talking about fat liberation. Like, how cool is that? And that's, that's, you know, that study that I was talking about from the episode. That's that, that study about being in group. So, you know, I want to say and I there's hope and hopefully things will get get better. I mean, they have for me and they have for a lot of people that that I talked to and, and also, it's called, you know, it's fine if you want to sit in the suck. Right? Because it's not fair, it is not fair, that fat people die because of fat. Hey, if you want some pepping up, go, there's a Instagram post, it's gonna get a link in the show notes, which is doobly doo 28 benefits of being fat, including, well, the first one being part of the fat community, all of it. Easy to find in a grout, belly shelf, a snack shelf, bigot filter, screen out the fat phobic of your body. decrease mortality, better cancer, survival rates, strong, more tattoo space, stronger pounds less at risk of osteoporosis, soft and cozy. So you know, it's not all shit. I think fatness is fabulous. You know what one that I love, there's a phrase, it's from a poem made of waves and honey, made of waves and honey, I think about thin bodies. And I think about you know, the horizon is a straight line. Just like you know, maybe thin bodies more have more straight lines. And that's a part of nature. And then waves hitting the shore. So curves and, and a honey dripping down is beautiful.

Isn't that a beautiful visually interesting. And the mountain some jagged edges and, you know, meadows and hills and maybe softer. And that for me that waves and honey is just so beautiful. And when I see my back rolls, that's what I'm thinking. I'm just like, Oh, it's so nice. Like, like kind of that fat coming down my back like this, too. I've got two rolls on each side of back rolls. And I'm just like, it's just like if my back was made of honey and it was just dripping down. That's what I wish for everyone listening is that they? They can see you know the world in their body. And see it's just part of human existence to to be the way that we are. All right. So end of the episode. That was the last question. Great question to end on. If you appreciate this episode, and would like to support fab liberation, go to Kofi and choose a level that feels good to you. And you'll get some from some free stuff on printing already. Then after that, thinking about the waves and honey. And if you ever have any questions feel free to email me or send me a message on Instagram My assistant will check them out. And so I hope you have a wonderful fat positive rest of your day. And I'll see you in a while and again to stay first fatty goodbye.

Episode 177 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 177, when a loved one hates their fat body, listener questions, I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. This is the Fierce Fatty Podcast, let's do it.

Hello, welcome fatties and fat allies fears fatties. Welcome. Hey, I missed you. Did you miss me? Well, I've been gone longer than you felt maybe gone because I recorded a couple of episodes back to back and then haven't recorded an episode in like a month. So it's weird. I'm like, Oh, my. I need to go talk to my friends. Yeah, so I'm excited to have a chinwag with you today. I was away in Ireland, visiting my family for two weeks. And now I'm back. So isn't it nice being able to I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but coming home from holiday and being happy that you live where you live. Thank you for that for me, like especially Vancouver airport. And Vancouver Airport is so nice. It's got loads of indigenous art and like water features and stuff. And so coming home, it's like, really relaxing and nice. And it's like, Oh, I love where I live. I'm so lucky. Maybe you've not experienced that. And you're like, What are you talking about? Yeah, cuz my son my life going back to normal. Right. I'd rarely go on holidays anyway. But going back to Peterborough would just be like, Oh, or even the UK. I'd be like, oh, yeah, so. And that was just my experience, right? Not everyone doesn't like the UK or pizza or whatever. Anyway, let's talk about kofi. Kofi is where you can support me if you'd like to. And to get back to four episodes of the face ID podcast a month, we need $680 In subscriptions. So July 7, we are at 210 with 32 subscribers. And August 25, which is when I went last look looked a few days ago. So we're at 32 subscribers, and 210. Now we're at 40 through and 300. So we've got an extra 60. In that month, wow. Six weeks, we got an extra $60 In subscriptions and an extra 11 subscribers. So we're doing it we're doing it we're doing it like that. So let's get to 686 80 We can do it, we can do it you want some you want four episodes or phosphatic content a month, like you're used to then go and donate on kofi The link is in the show notes or whatever, somewhere somewhere around where you're listening. I don't know where it is. We'll just put first by E. K O FY into the the Google into the Google and you'll you'll find it probably I don't know. We'll go to Instagram Lincoln bio. I don't know you'll find it somewhere. And if you don't know you'll get free ship. Free shit. Like the size diversity Resource Guide, which is amazing. You know, I did create it. So I'm biased, but it is really fucking good. When I was making an artist like, and it was years in the making, right collecting all these sources. And so you know, you know, places to shop podcasts or listen to books to read. Science, everything amazing TED Talks. So if you want more fat or liberation in your life, why wouldn't you? Then go check it out. You can get that for $5. And you can either do $5 $10 or $20. And obviously the higher value the more benefits you get. So I want to give a shout out to my supporters. Let's have a look. Let's have a little lucky. Okay, so shout out to the CO fire supporters, Leanne. Debbie, Sarah, Monica, Thomas, Irene, Beth, Josie, Vanessa, Lindsey, Laura. Renee, Rachel. Rachel scientist, Emma. Cassie, Kathy Louise, Stephanie. Melanie, fan tough. This is a tongue twister. FAN TAG lifts FAN TAG lifts. Jane Shay Elizabeth. Joe haich W. Jessie, Jenna. Amy, Steph, Linda, Laurie. Kath, Jess. Just K. Pax, Alison, Deb. Hannah, Avi. Avi, Gina Maria Najia. Janine, and Nora, thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate you. You rock my world. I can't tell you how happy when I get a little email saying someone's donated. I'm just like, you. You're the best. So yeah, today's episode, I sent an email out and said, What basis have you got? Also I collect like sometimes when people message me on Instagram, my my assistant will forward them to me and then ask them if, if you want to be included on questions for the show. Anyway, so some, some inboxes and some are sent an email and some people replied. So we've got a number of different questions today. And I love them so juicy. You know, it was? Yeah, I just love it when you have these questions about your your life. So let's start we've got Emma, who says hi with two exclamation marks and relax tired. Absolutely love your content. I've learned so much. Thank you, Emma, I have a question for you. My mother is slowly starting to be unwell. Not being able to walk new problems eating quote, unhealthy, her words, not mine. And she insists all the problems on because she is fat. I keep trying to tell her that it's hurt that it's internalized fat phobia to ensue. Being fat is making her unhealthy. And a better motivation than weight loss would be concentrating on feeling good finding enjoyable movement and working on her relationship to food etc. And she keeps not listening. I mean, she listens, but then claims that she knows more about nutrition. She means weight loss because she's tried all over the diets lol and says, I have no idea what it's like to be fat. Fair enough. How would you start educating someone who was fat and claimed it to be the reason for health issues because a bunch of fat phobic doctors told us so. I bet you a lot of people in listening are dealing with something similar. And and this is so so hard. Right? So thank you, Emma for sharing. I think your mum is lucky to know you. And I thought I'd share something that that I see with my one on one clients who are in sometimes the newest stages of fat liberation. When I say new, I mean like probably a couple of years or less in although, you know, could people who are moral, you know, been in fact liberation work for longer could also experience something like that. So, and this was my experience, too. So what happens is in our lives, we discover fat liberation, or anti diet or intuitive eating. And it's amazing, right? It's like, for me it was this Holy fucking shit. What? Why is no one told me this, you know, for me, it was discovering Reagan chest pains, blocked dancers with fat. And I was like, get the fuck outta here immediately done. That's it moving forward, changed my life. You might wonder why it took you so long for you to know this stuff. And you're gobsmacked and excited and maybe scared. And, you know, it's the start of a whole new thing, right? So you engage in fat liberation and anti diet and intuitive eating and your life does get better. And so you want to tell everyone because they are going to be gifted with this magical thing. And they can let go of diets and fat hate etc. And they can feel good, like how you're feeling. All they need is for you to share what you know, or a book or an IG account or a podcast, and there'll be bathed in light and start dancing. Like if you've ever seen Blues Brothers, Jake, in the Blues Brothers movie, he's like, I see the light and he starts dancing. Basically, he sees God or whatever. But you know, this is what I thought, you know, I'd be like, oh, you should read this book. And then people will be like, Oh my god, Vinny. Thank God for you. You've changed my life, you know. But what happens? is almost certainly not like that. And there are many reasons for it. It's not that you're saying the wrong things or recommending the wrong accounts or whatever.

You were in the perfect place to hear about fat liberation and anti diet messaging, right? Perhaps you'd heard it before. And you took no notice or poo pooed it. It's like, certain steps in the puzzle had to be taken for it to be relevant to you. You know, like, Oh, what is that show? I was watching it in Ireland catchphrase, where they have all the puzzle pieces on the board and it's like a, this image and it'll be, it'll be a catchphrase. It's a catchphrase. And then there's puzzle pieces that will be revealed. And eventually, you're like, Oh, it's this but before you that final piece is revealed, you're like, I don't know what that is. And so, you know, there was another final puzzle piece was put into place and you're like, ah, fat liberation, anti diet, intuitive eating. That's what me. So, you know, perhaps you've been on 101 diets and diet 102 pushed you over the edge into looking into something different perhaps you had been in therapy for years and worked out blaming your fat body for how it looked was not working for you. And then you randomly saw a fat liberationist Anti diet message and it clicked, but say you were on diet 97 And someone came to you and said, Oh man, I have you heard of fat liberation. You might say I know more about nutrition than you. And if I just lose weight, I will be healthy. So the third stage is really getting into process profit profit. From I'm gonna break this down. Someone someone's listening, being proselytizing. profs will look tising proselytizing. Thank you. Thank you Google for breaking it down for me proselytizing, the third stage is proselytizing, about fat liberation, and hearing crickets and feeling dejected. Right. So you're excited you tell other people they're not excited, that might be like, go away. Maybe there is people who are excited, but you know, you're hearing critic, crickets are you hearing pushback and you feel dejected, annoyed and and perhaps angry or sad, because you can see the pain that they are in, you can see the path ahead, you know that if they just did what you told them to do? Or read that book or listen to that podcast, they would feel so much better? Why are they so stubborn? Right? And so the fourth stage is, is coming to the realization that people are our own that on their own path. And you can talk about what feels good for you, if they consent to advice. And you can set boundaries about what you want to hear what's acceptable for you to hear, like, you know, if you're someone's talking about how fatness is made them sick or whatever. But you can't actually force someone to do what you want them to do. I know I'm sorry, we can't force people to do what we want them to do. It's so sad. It's their own journey. Right? So you know, perhaps in the future, they'll see you happy intuitive eating, not Hating Your Body and think, hmm, maybe they're onto something, or maybe not. And maybe it's it's, you know, and you know, that can be painful. So sitting in that grief and pain and protecting your own well being is where a lot of people land. So basically, it sucks. It sucks. It's complicated. You know, I feel like I, I feel like, for me, what feels good is just living my life. And if people want to take that as an example of what not to do, or what to do, or what might feel good, then that's great, you know, but I can't force anyone to not be hit, you know, for to be hating themselves. I can't stop them doing that. And, you know, in the beginning, beginning of so I'd be like, say to people like hey, oh, you know, I've got his course and you know, or, you know, why don't you read this book, or, Oh, just you know, thinking, Ah, it's just gonna fall in place for them. But then they're not, they're not at that place. They might not ever be at that place. So. So I had had just have to look after myself, and also put boundaries. So to answer your question, Emma, which was how do you start educating someone who is fat and claims it's the reason for the health issues because fat phobic doctor told her they don't consent, then if they don't consent to education, it's not your place to do so. You can say things like, Would you like to hear about this resource that shows you how to treat XYZ without sticking around body size? And if they say no, then okay, no problem. If you ever want that, let me know. You know, if your mom says I need to lose weight, as my doctor says that's why my knees are sore. You could say I'm so sorry. You're experiencing that. I wish doctors would not blame weight on everything. There are treatments outside of losing weight that are helpful. Do you want me to send you a link? Or just I'm sorry, you deserve evidence based care. After, after the first time of asking if she wants your opinion about this? And she says no, don't keep like, saying, you know, keep keep keep on saying things because it could feel really badgering and it might push her away from a connection with you or from discovering this type of stuff. Just be there for her. And also set boundaries for your own well being because, you know, if she's talking about this a lot, I mean, for me, I you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to deal with that long term. So, so yeah, so sorry, ama, kind of a complicated and not so perfect kind of answer. Yeah. Can't we just mind control people? Okay, next question. Hi, Vinny. I have a silly question. I'm considering a dual citizenship with Canada. And moving here. If it becomes unsafe for me to exist in my home country, the US have a but the idea of immigration medical exam kind of scares me because they mentioned weighing No, when I was I have a history of eating disorders, can you ask them not to weigh you? Or for a blind weighing? Also, feel free to share this question on an episode of UC field? Thanks in advance violence. Okay, so immigration processes can be discriminatory towards fat people. As far as I know, from my research, Canada is not one of those places. One of those places is New Zealand, in case you're curious. So my experience with the medical exam, bearing in mind is 10 plus years ago, is that I had a chest x x ray, than a doctor listened to me breathing and then talked about Malcolm Gladwell, the book that I was reading, to fill the time, it was really kind of like nothing. However, I did have a smaller body, then I was probably a small fat at that time. I don't remember being weighed, but they must have because in the the things in online, what it tells you about what they're looking for. It does say one of the first things that usually the first thing is a way you why fatphobia, but they are not looking at someone's weight as a reason to deny them. I was looking on people sharing their experiences. And no one said that weight was the criteria that they were denied for everyone who said that they had a very large body so that they got him. What they're looking for is communicable diseases. So things like tuberculosis, they might do, they might be looking for things like syphilis or, you know, other things that could affect other people. Or they're looking for if the if there is an excessive excessive demand from the healthcare system. And what they define that it is, is in 2023 $128,445, over five years, or 25,000 ish a year. Yeah. So to answer your question, I think they will have to weigh you, I would be hesitant to say, I don't want to be weighed because I have a history or history of eating disorder. Because I wouldn't want them to write that down. And I wouldn't want them to have any type of reason to be like, Wow, that's gonna cost us money. You know? So I would just be like, I don't want to see the weight. So when you get in, you know, if they say we weigh you just say, you know, can I not see the weight? And not mentioned why. And you know, that the whoever was is weighing you is probably going to be a massive decade if they say no, I'm gonna force you to fail. But then again, I don't remember being weighed, you know, but then again, I was I had a smaller body so it wasn't, maybe it wasn't that more dramatic. Maybe they, you do a self report. Wait, you know, in the waiting room, they're like, what's your height? What's your weight and all that type of stuff? What medications are you on? I just remember being like, in the room with the doctor being like, literally, this is so funny how little he is interested in checking my well being in you know, because I had to be a you have to take your clothes off and wear a gown. From what I remember because I remember being like this is so silly is literally just chatting to me about Malcolm Gladwell. I feel like this is a bullshit test, which is good which is fine for me, you know. So, anyway, next question.

Hi there. My mum has been referred to a weight loss surgeon and program in order in order to lose weight to get a surgery for her knee and I was wondering if you had any research on the negative and dangerous side effects of weight loss surgery? From Deanna? Yes, Deanna we absolutely do. I have 1234 episodes on weight loss surgery, starting with episode 90 links for everything in the show notes. But to find the episodes that I'm talking about, you can just go to facebook.com forward slash the episode number. So for 90 it's 090. So Episode 90, will weight loss surgery make you thin, healthy and live longer? Episode One to two stories from weight loss survivors patients eight years post on Episode one to six of stories from weight loss survivors part two, Episode 165, weight loss, surgery stats and stories. Part Three. If you want more digestible content, I have an Instagram post that goes over weight loss surgery facts, and also an Instagram post with stories from survivors. Let me just read out some facts for you if you want them just at the top of your brain. Okay, so will it extend your life 4.6% die within a year 7.5% For Men 6.4% by four years and 15.8% by eight years. Three out of 1000 die within 30 days increased mortality risks are times seven in year one and 250% to 363%. By year four, will it make you feel unhealthy? Two years after the surgery 46% have regained weight and by four years it's 63%. No randomized controlled clinical trials that have shown any any long term improvements to actual health or that lives are saved or extended complications 20 to 25% of gastric bypass, patients develop life threatening competent complications. 89% of patients had at least one adverse event 1/3 of them severe 56% of bariatric patients had 62 Different gastrointestinal complications and abnormalities, double the risk of substance use issues and four times increase of death by suicide. Most insurance companies won't pay for the procedure which costs between 15 and $25,000. One of the most lucrative specialities for doctors, fun times. That's saying that sometimes healthcare is held by ransom. So with your mum, and you said it was your mom. With your mom, it could be that she has to in order to get the surgery. However, there are ways to advocate for evidence based care if there are bariatric surgeons who are able to safely sedate, and Nisa ties, fat patients, can we not get those same anesthesiologists to be present for knee surgery? The answer is yes, we can. And it is just the the knee surgeons lack of skill, that means the anesthesiologist, lack of skill, that means that they are not able to safely and nice digitize someone in a larger body. And so that is not acceptable. So there could be advocating for finding someone who will do it and higher weight patients. And that's absolutely something that is possible. It's not out of the realms of of reality. However, it could be difficult depending where you are. So and again, the same with what Emma's post is, although we can say I think this is a bad idea, you know, again, your mom has body autonomy, autonomy, and she could decide that that's the best choice. Even if she doesn't agree with it, you know, even if she doesn't agree with having to do weight loss surgery. Because it's just knees or not. Knees, knee pain is not improved with weight loss. It makes me so annoyed. And so this surgeon is saying it's not safe for me to operate on you. So you need to go and get another operation with loads of risks for me to then be able to operate on you because you have a smaller body and it's just fucked up. So sending love to your mom, I hope everything works out. Okay, next question. Hey, Vinny. My question is, isn't it actually unhealthy to be fat? And if it's not, how do you explain to others like family members and friends that it's not? Thanks, Melanie. Okay, so I want us to remember a couple of things. So when this health question comes up, okay. And I will I want it to kind of remember the couple of things so that it's easy so you can feel relaxed when when these types of debates come up if you want to engage in them. I'll tell you what those are in just I'm just going to give a little kind of preamble, but I'll tell you what they are. So, fatness in and of itself has not been shown to cause that what is really important cause poor health outcomes fatness has not been shown to cause poor health outcomes with all the research around fatness, we have no causal relationships there. Okay. Which is rigid, which is very remarkable. Okay. So fat tissue, adipose tissue is not this thing that makes fat people sick. Now someone might say hi, I mean, there was a study that shows that there was fat mice had like free radicals going around their bodies. Were not mice were different creatures. We have no data that talks about that in humans at all, no causal mechanism there. So what we do know is that there are links found with dieting, which are shame and stigma subpar or denied night denied health care and dieting that have a causal relationship with worse health outcomes. So for example, if a fat person cannot access an MRI machine, because the local machines available only fit small bodies, and therefore a diagnosis is missed or delayed, because they can't find a suitable machine. Is it the fat person's fatness that causes the poor health outcome? Or is it the systemic anti fatness at play? It's the latter right. There fatness has not caused them to have delay in diagnosis not being able to get treatment seek treatment being denied treatment, it is anti fatness, right. So we also have a lot of studies on the O word paradox. The O word paradox being basically hang on a minute. We thought fat people were like dying left, right and center and you know fatness causes all these diseases, but it turns out fatness is protective, and also, fat people have reduced mortality. They it's apparent paradox, you know, and there's more and more studies keep coming out that say this. I mean, this should just get rid of the paradox thing, you know, because it's just like, Hmm, could it be independent factors that causes someone to have different health outcomes versus this arbitrary physical characteristic of body size? You know, it's like if people studied like, oh, do green eyes versus blue eyes? Do green eyed people have worse outcomes and blue eyed people and some studies, it's a paradox. Apparently, blue eyed people do have better outcomes sometimes. And sometimes they don't. What? What's it got to do with anything? Yeah, I got like, you know, whatever. So anyway, so we've got lots of studies on this one huge systematic review and meta analysis shows that folks have reduced mortality compared to quote, normal weight people. Quote from the study, 97 studies were retained for analysis providing a combined sample size of more than 2.8 8 million individuals, and more than 270,000 deaths. I'm gonna put a link to this in the show notes to the study. But Harriet brown kind of summarizes what it says in a piece called The O word crisis is a myth. So Katherine Fleagle,

who is one of the co authors of the papal paper, an epidemiologist at the CDC, so CDC Center for Disease control's National Center for Health Statistics sense set out to map the relationship between BMI categories and mortality, they expected to find a linear relationship, the higher a person's BMI, the greater their risk of dying prematurely. But that's not what they found instead, Fleagle and her colleagues discovered what statisticians call a U shaped curve at the bottom of the curve, the lower lowest risk of death, falling around 25 Just 26 on the BMI, BMI chart making the risk of early death lowest, lowest labeled for those overweight people considered mildly Oh, had roughly the same risk of diets are dying as those in the quote normal category. Death rates went up for those either end of the scale underweight and severely Oh, but not by much. The differences we're talking about overall pretty tiny, explains Fleegle. As soon as free goes analysis appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association, the excrement hit the air conditioning. Other researchers claimed her work was shoddy that she'd left out important data. They said there was no way her results could be accurate. SJ, all ole Shanky a professor of epidemiology at the University of Illinois, Chicago, responded with a journal article arguing that rising fatness rates would shorten lives by two to five years. That statistic got a lot of attention and is still floating around today despite the fact that it has been utterly and thoroughly debunked. As one of all shank keys co authors University of Alabama, Alabama Birmingham biostatistician, David B. Allison told a reporter from Scientific American these are just back of the envelope plausible scenarios. were never meant for them to be portrayed as precise. See, funny how those types of things they just they, those little sound bites, they get picked up. And that's it floats around, you know. But reports like these which are grounded in opinion and clear agendas rather than fat, food and an increasingly hostile and confusing public conversation around weight. At the very least, we're being taught that dieting is benign, something that that can't hurt us, even if it doesn't really help. The truth is dieting is actually harmful for many of us for all sorts of reasons. And it doesn't make most of us thinner, or healthier. The Cure has become worse than the disease. This is making me feel like I'm trying to wrack my brain of the program. It might have been like, Married at First Sight. There was this girl that was this woman that was saying, I think she was saying sugar is more addictive than heroin. This is like this is like in the recesses of my of my mind of I watched Married at First Sight Australia. The whole I think it's a tense season, the most recent season during my time off, and God It fucked with my luck with my body image. It's like, you know, like, like, you decide you like fuck it, you know, I'm just gonna watch the show and get all the trash you notice and then and then like, detox my brain by watching things which have different people in anyway. This is going to wreck my awareness from and the people at the table will like you What is wrong with you that you think that is more addictive than an actual drug like heroin? Ah, if anyone knows what I'm talking about, message me and tell me because I was going to wrack my brain because I wouldn't want to do a put that into like a little sound bite. Anyway, so so so so anyway, back to the question, is it talking about Married at First Sight, but you know that and I'm gonna talk about it at first sight is bad for body image, but if you want to watch it, it was entertaining. But you do need in like, be cautious with the amount of thin people who will look the same anyway. So so so so, so our fat people healthy. So for me, if that people are healthy or not healthy is a moot point. What if every single fat person was unhealthy? What then? Should we deny unhealthy people care kindness that humanity? No. So is there any way that fat people can reliably become thin people? Because people will say, Well, you know, they should lose weight. Well, there is no reliable way for fat people to become thin people. So what's the solution? Shame fat people into behaving in a way that a fat phobic is comfortable with. Basically what this comes down to is comforting the feelings of body beggars. They would feel better if every fat person was groveling for forgiveness for existing and performing health by only eating carrots and never leaving the house or existing online or being on a treadmill for five hours a day. And even then if a fat person does raise their head and advocate for themselves, it will discuss the fat folk. So the thing is, if someone's fat phobic, there's no winning, right? Because, you know, you can argue and say fat people can be healthy and fat people can be unhealthy. But, you know, like, where are we going to go with this? You know, what's, what's your solution eugenics like, what are we doing with So, you know, so for me if a relative asked me, Are Fat People healthy? I would tell them the above if I, you know, if they were interested maybe. And also ask, do you think it's appropriate to treat unhealthy people unkindly? Because that will tell me all I need to know about whether I want to engage with that person further. So to answer your question, Are Fat People unhealthy? Yes. I think people are unhealthy. Yes. Are Fat People healthy? Yes. Yes. But what is health? You know, I think people have a yet yes. But what is health? Like? It's just such a complicated topic. What is health? Being free from disease is a dictionary definition. But you know, what these people who are saying, Are Fat People that people are unhealthy that they're not thinking about a holistic view of health? They're thinking, do they have diabetes? Do they have high blood pressure? You know, do they disgust me? Because if they disgust me, then it's a problem. But if that fat person is depressed, or is experiencing terrible weight stigma, don't get left out. You know? Yeah, no. Okay, so next question. Hi, Vinny. I tried searching your website, but I don't think it was working. I also searched surgery because I know you did an episode on my and I didn't find anything. I'm sorry about that. Anyway, I was just diagnosed with type two diabetes. And I was wondering if you have an episode about that from an anti diet fat positive standpoint? If not, that's my question. Best Li. Thankfully, yeah, sorry, the little search thing doesn't work. But anyway, I just in the one of the other questions, I just put it a list of a list of all of the ones on surgery on weight loss surgery anyway. So sending a ton of love to you as you navigate this new diagnosis, Lee, especially because the shame and stigma around fatness and type two diabetes is horrible. And for many, it's actually worse than the actual condition. So and I've not done a whole episode on it. And I feel like that's probably because other people speak better about it than me because I have no experience lived experience with it. But good news. There's about a bajillion resources. Now, not as much as a bajillion, but probably like 40 resources. So just the other day happens to be before I read your thing, your message? Marilyn, what and I'm friends with Marion when I'm on Facebook, and also Marilyn, when profile is a public if you're not friends with her, but she asked the question, what are the new groups on type two diabetes and

fatness, you know, and so people gave her some links there a couple of links. They didn't give a couple of people put the name of the group but I wasn't able to find them because I think they're private groups. And if they're a private group, you can't search them as well, I think. So if anyone has names to these two groups, links to these two groups, please send them to me, and I'll add them to the show notes. But the first one was non dieting, diabetics. And the next one was called fat sugar baby. So if anyone is in those groups, send me a link so I can share that with other people. But I do have the link for these two groups, these two groups called diet free talk for diabetes slash insulin issues, and fat positive Intuitive Eating diabetes community. So in the shownotes, there's going to be a link again in the show notes first fatty.com forward slash 177 for episode 177. Or just look around wherever you're listening to this. Other people have left other comments one said I attend a free virtual weight inclusive diabetes support group and that was that's hosted by Laura Newman, rd. It's moderated by some awesome folks and I've always had a good experience. They're very thoughtful antidote space linea Ashlyn has a whole blog post, which is 25 plus weight neutral and Health at Every Size resources for managing diabetes linked for you there. And there's loads of stuff on there. I was scrolling through I was like, Oh, this is great. This is this was a one minute search on the Internet and I found these already. I probably know where to look though. I know what's I know what's you know if I see the word body liberation photos, I know it's I know it's lonely and so I know it's safe. So we've got lots of different things like articles, books, other resources, all sorts literally all sorts of stuff too much for me to mention here so go find that link. Also Hayes health sheets, which is my go to for everything. There's hate nutrition handouts by Megan always wonder how to say a name sissy sis set. C i C H Y SECI. Google says sketchy. So it's probably wrong. So Megan Cichy, I think he's polish has got a nutrition handouts doobly doo. But let's have a look at his health sheets because that that kind of gives us an overview for those who are curious. So it goes up, what is it? What causes it? How is it diagnosed? How is it treated? What about pre diabetes? I just realized I totally forgot to tell you the two points that that question in which was our fat people unhealthy? The two points to remember. You don't need to remember statistics and CDC study and there's some that first point is what if every single fat person that walked the earth was unhealthy? What then? Do we round them all up? And, you know, well, what are you suggesting eugenics? Like, what if? What if any person will say well put them on a diet? Okay, point two, we've close to 100 years of evidence that there is no way for the vast majority of people to lose weight. It's not even like, maybe, maybe we do have some evidence, it's not good. Where it's, it is so over studied. And so well established that we do not have any way. And that includes surgeries and pills and injections. We do not have any way to win a way to make fat people into thin people long term for any more than a tiny percentage of people. Okay, so that's not like an if someone says, Well, I can't be true. Ask them, okay, find one study, which shows weight loss for even 10% of the people, you know, a tiny amount for more than five years. They can't find it, it does not exist doesn't exist, doesn't exist. Loads of studies to show if you know, if you do this or that or whatever, you'll lose weight temporarily. So anyway, so that's the two three points is it all fat people are unhealthy? Yeah, they're healthy and they're unhealthy and what is health? But what if they are unhealthy? What is everyone wonderful fat people are unhealthy. There's no way to make fat people think people. Okay, so that's the two points you need to remember. So you don't need to be on fat people, they all have this condition and that condition and fat people are terrible and fat people are agreeing. Okay, so let's just presume every single fat person is really really deeply unhealthy. Are they suggesting eugenics If so, thing I want you in my life because those workbooks Okay, so, anyway, we were talking about his health issues. So just to kind of quick overview of type two diabetes, what causes it a number of factors can contribute to an increased risk of type two diabetes, including weight cycling, yo yo dieting, and internalized weight stigma, but type two diabetes is predominantly a genetic condition. While much of fat phobic misinformation floats around, you cannot eat your way to type two diabetes, it affects people of all sizes. You've done nothing wrong for it to happen. Lola that that resource from from Lindley is so many of them are posts from nutritionists who are saying sugar does not cause type two diabetes, it is not your fault type not one diabetes is not the diabetes where it's not your fault. And type two is your fault. That's not true. It's not true that you're not allowed to eat carbohydrates. It's not true that you can't do intuitive eating like just so many things. And there's so many of them is about sugar. Because it's just so the stigma around it really, I really want people to not feel that, that that stigma and with pre diabetes, which is a bullshit made up condition if you want to know more about that, go check out the links in the show notes. Okay, so this episode is is getting poured a gigantic and and so I'm gonna have to split it into two episodes. So let's leave it here for for today. And then we'll continue with the questions in next episode 178. And if you appreciate the work that I'm doing and fat liberation reminder, go to Kofi KOF. I link in the show notes. And this donate or not whatever, it was a you, you do you as we've established, we can't force people to do anything. But if we get to $680 then we will have four episodes a month and that will be great because I miss it when I'm not talking to you. It's like you're my friends and you're not here anyway and also maybe you like the content. Maybe you do maybe you don't you probably do if you're listening this fall. Anyway, whatever. Stop talking. So you know, while alligators stay face fatty, or whatever wonderful fat positive day.

Episode 176 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

.You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 176, Lisa Marie Presley Died From Weight Loss Surgery: Legends That Fatphobia Stole Part 2. I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Glad to do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:28

Hello, welcome to this episode first fatty and first fatty allies How you doing? How's life? How's the trip and Yeah, you're good. I'm good. You're good. I've got a song stuck in my head. I'm gonna get it stuck in your head. All I need is the air that I breathe in to love you. You know that song some times or YouTube it is colder it's the Hollies the air that I breathe is it give you a little snippet maybe I'll get in trouble I'll do it for one second. The air that I breathe okay the air that I breathe by the Hollies there you go there's a little via taken down of silent. God you see anyway your play another famous person dead because of that phobia. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:39

I put out a post when was it? July 13. With on Instagram, Lisa Marie Presley died from complications from prior weight loss surgery or toss autopsy report shows. And, and previously, about a week before July 4, I put out another Instagram post. How much did fat phobia and diet culture lead to these famous people's deaths? And those were a round up of a previous podcast episode that I did. Legends that fat phobia stole episode 145 Put it in the show notes. And that covered people like Amy Winehouse, Cass, Elliot, Karen Carpenter, Nicki Graham, Heidi Gunther, and many others. And so yeah, well, I'm this this post that I put up before Lisa Marie Presley's

Unknown Speaker 2:44

autopsy results, which was shown people were like, and this person and that person and this person and that person, and they weren't people that I'd had covered in that previous episode. And I mean, this, there's probably so so so so many people who have died because of anti fatness. Famous people specifically. And so some of these, I'm gonna read out people's comments, and then I'm going to tell you what I found information about it. But before we do let's talk about Lisa Marie Presley. And quick thing. If you like the show, if you want it to continue and you'd like this work, you want to support the work of a first party like me go to cofee and you will get free chips. Okay. Oh, f i first fatty link in the show notes, links to everything that we're talking about today in the show notes which is fierce fatty.com forward slash 176. Or in your show notes on your apps. Trigger warning for this episode, because we're talking about people who have died from eating disorders, people who have experienced trauma, there's one brief mention of essay sexual assault. And it's it's one sentence so I'll let you know when that's coming up if you need to skip ahead. Yeah, and disordered eating, eating disorders, disordered eating? Anti fatness, all of that stuff. So it's a it's a big one. It's a big one. And so if that's not feeling right for you today, please skip this episode. Go in, listen to something else or go and look at some videos of dogs online or something like that.

Unknown Speaker 4:28

So on that first post, I had shared of, you know, the that didn't mention Lisa Marie Presley because it came out a week or so before the autopsy results were announced someone said it's not real. It's not widely mentioned really. But Lisa Marie Presley lost. Should I tell you wait, no. Lost x pounds with quote medication according to a reputable Newspaper Source saw says in just six weeks to appear at the Golden Globes, right before her death, she also she also had plastic surgery in that time period.

Unknown Speaker 5:11

So that was interesting. I messed it up. I left a comment saying, Wow, you You were very right about Lisa Marie Presley. So I wonder if that weight loss with medication was as Empik or what? But she had had weight loss surgery many years before. Let me see. Actually, I didn't get that. How many years before? Lisa Marie Presley? Actually somewhere somewhere? Instagram post B ed ed ed ed to do

Unknown Speaker 5:51

a quick search. He's not telling me I remember seeing eight years ago that she had it years, people are reporting years so that means minimum three, presumably, but I think I remember seeing eight years. Okay, so quote, Lisa Marie Presley. His cause of death was the result of a surgery that she had undergone years before an autopsy report confirm the only child of Elvis Presley she experienced what's known as a small bowel obstruction, which sometimes occurs in people who've had bariatric surgery. The autopsy report was made public six months after Lisa Marie Presley died at the age of 54. On January the 12th 2023. At the time, authorities confirmed she suffered cardiac arrest before sudden death before her sudden death. She was found not breathing in a home in Calabasas, California and was taken to the hospital, where she was later declared dead. Lisa Marie Presley died from the after effects or sub quality of ACE small bowel obstruction Squale is lik effects of a procedure of a small bowel obstruction obstruction when part of the small intestine is blocked, according to a July 13 autopsy.

Unknown Speaker 7:06

The report stated her obstruction was quote was quote caused by adhesions, bands of scar tissue that developed after bariatric surgery years ago. It went on to note that quote the issue is a known long term complication of bariatric surgery. common complications that result from untreated small bowel obstruction include dead tissue, because the blockage can cut off blood flow to part of the intestine which can result in a tear or an infection or an infection in the abdominal cavity called peritonitis. According to the Mayo Clinic, Presley had oxycodone and other medications in her book blood but these were only at therapeutic levels, meaning that she wasn't taking enough of these drugs for them to have contributed to her death. The report stated the coroner wrote in the report that the morning of the day that brisley died, she had been experiencing pain in in her abdomen. She complained of this symptom for months prior to her death, the coroner noted along with feeling feverish, feverish, nausea, and vomiting. She died age 54 Jan 1220 23.

Unknown Speaker 8:25

so tragic. And in that previous episode that I did episode 145. I spoke about her father Elvis Presley and the awful anti fat bias that he experienced. And Elvis is mum has she was a fat woman. And I just I think about that intergenerational trauma, that Auntie fatness has caused that family and you know, Elvis Presley's Mum, what about her her parents? Did she have fat parents?

Unknown Speaker 9:03

Presumably, there's there's obviously, you know, fatness is just a normal way to have a body and and if your family are fat, then you know, probably you're gonna be fat. And there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe not.

Unknown Speaker 9:17

But you know, that that trauma that that family have experienced potentially for generations, and also that beautiful shining light and talent. That is they're fighting on, you know, and then and then not.

Unknown Speaker 9:37

So I want to talk about the comments that people left on my previous post about the other celebrities, and that I had made that post in end of 2022. And so it's been eight months I guess, since then, and so yeah, other people have died. Now Maybe not or maybe I just didn't know about them. So the first one is Shane Warne, a famous Australian cricketer, who was on extreme diets all his life, and who died in March last year due to an extreme extreme dieting affecting his heart is the comment. And so, here's some quotes for you about Shane Warren. And even I knew who Shane Warren was. I didn't hear that news. I guess because I'm not in. I'm in Canada, right. And I'm not reading news about cricket. But cricket is big in the UK, obviously. Okay, so Shane Warne passed away March 4 2022, to leave the whole cricketing fraternity in a state of shock. The 52 year old was in Thailand on a personal trip where he breathed his last and left a huge void in world cricket with his sudden demise. Wayne Warren remains a legend of the gentleman's game with that 1001 International wickets something blah, blah, blah, cricket stuff. According to the brief statement given to Fox News by warns management he died due to a heart attack during his Thailand trip. Quote, Shane was found unresponsive in his villa and despite the best efforts of medical staff he could not be revived the statement read. The family requests privacy at this time and will provide further details in due course it added for the inverse, the 52 year old spin wizard Warren was on an extreme liquid diet in order to lose fat and regain shape. While sharing a picture on Twitter. The Ozzie great had revealed some time sometime back. So he made a Twitter post. And the Post said, quote operation shred has started 10 days in and the goal by July is to get back to this shape from a few years ago. Let's go and quote. According to Warren's manager, James Skene, the Australian was serving a strict 14 Day liquid diet. The diet comprised just liquids and no food. According to reports, the legendary spinner sweated a lot more than usual in the week prior to his sudden departure. Quote, he did go on these ridiculous sorts of diets and he just finished one where he basically only ate fluids for 14 days. And he done these three or four times news.com.au quoted Erskine as saying he added it was a bit all or nothing. It was either white buns with butter and lasagna stuff in the middle. Or would it be having a black and black and green juices? Don't like that food chimp in there? He obviously smoked most of his life. I don't know. I think it was just a massive heart attack. That's what I think has happened. Skien added. Yeah. And so other sources that I was looking at was saying like the effects of a liquid only only diet. It puts really great stress on on your heart. Let me let me quote some of these. Okay, so here's a quote from ABC in Australia. After warns death from a suspected heart attack in Thailand, his manager, blah, blah, blah, exactly what we just said.

Unknown Speaker 13:12

Nicole bando and accredited dietitian based in Melbourne, said so called quote detox or quote, juice diets were potentially dangerous because they involve the removal of whole food groups, including including important nutrients from a person's diet. Quote, if you do a juice dot diet, it can actually lead to dilution of electrolytes, which are the salts in our blood. These include potassium, which is involved in conducting electricity and therefore the function of the heart. Professor Gary Jennings Chief Health adviser at the Heart Foundation of Australia said such diets introduced the possibility of heart complications. People with underlying conditions such as diabetes, kidney and liver problems are also at severe risk of severe consequences. Professor Jennings added, what can happen with extreme dieting is that if the heart is not bathed in the right mixture of electrolytes and nutritional chemicals, then your heart gets more irritable. So if you were to have a heart attack, it's much more likely to lead to something more serious, such as cardiac arrest. Another issue with extreme diets Ms. bando said is what happens when they end. When you introduce normal foods, you can actually cause a further imbalance of electrolytes, she said referring to a phenomenon as refeeding syndrome. When normal eating is resumed, it can cause the levels of the salts to drop because they're being used in the metabolism of the food. On the extreme end, she said it can lead to heart arrhythmia, irregular heartbeat, as well as seizure, coma and death. less severe symptoms include headaches, fatigue and nausea. Another problem with st extreme diets Ms. mando says what was the myth that they detoxify the body a process our bodies naturally undertake? Anyway, this nutritionist is the best oh my goodness being quoted on ABC. Our body is incredibly, incredibly involved evolved from the skin to the gastrointestinal issue. System to our lungs, kidney knees and liver they all remove various toxins from our bodies whether that comes from food or internal toxins that are byproducts of our metabolism. Yeah. And apparently he was doing it you know throughout his life obviously as you just heard those you just heard me me read so it's a shame like he was saying like getting back into shape like he wasn't saying like, getting you know, he was like, it sounds like when he says get back into shape what I heard was physical appearance versus health right. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 15:34

Dolores O'Riordan, lead singer of the cranberries are Irish band. They did that song. Zombie, zombie, zombie. Hey, what's in your head? In your head? zombie? Zombie zombie? Oh, anyway, I've stopped singing. That's one of my go to karaoke songs. People say Vinnie, how do you do some yodeling um, and I just do it anyway.

Unknown Speaker 16:11

Dolores O'Riordan. Someone commented I could be wrong, but it was well known. She struggled with an eating disorder. I'm sure it contributed to her death, if not their entire reason. She was 46 years old. Okay, so here's the quote that's going to come up with talking about MSA come back in

Unknown Speaker 16:31

30 seconds, it will be over. Okay, so quotes about from about Dolores. Quote for four years when I was a little girl I was sexually abused. I was only a kid Egon claims. A Reardon told him in 2013. That's what happened. She continued. You think it's your own fault I buried it. It is what you do. Initially you bury it because you're ashamed of it. You think oh my god, how horrible and disgusting I am. You have this terrible self loathing. And then I got famous when I was 18. And my career took over. It was even harder then. So I developed anorexia. When I Googled anorexia and studied it, I found that it was a common pathology that develops later on in life. So I was putting on the sharar this perfect face. I had anorexia then depression, a breakdown. I knew I hated myself. I knew why I loved myself. I knew why I wanted to make myself disappear. It was something that I noticed manifested itself in my behavior and the pathologies I began to develop in my early adult life such as my eating disorder, depression, and eventually the breakdowns. I think I'm getting stronger for sure, but I'll always be a bit of a train wreck. Nobody's perfect. Those people who pretend they are perfect, aren't perfect.

Unknown Speaker 17:41

And then she continues. I'm Dolores. I'm pretty good some but sometimes I hit the bottle. Everything is way worse. And next morning, I changed smoke when I drink. I have a bad day and when I have bad memories, and I can't control them, I hit the bottle. I kind of binge drink. That is the kind of that is kind of my biggest flaw at that moment. On Monday, January 15 2018, police were called to a hotel in Park Lane in London, where a readin was pronounced dead at the same.

Unknown Speaker 18:12

Death was confirmed by a publicist and a statement shortly after Irish international singer has died suddenly in London today. She was 46 year old. I think she died from an overdose that also the the me official cause of death was drowning. caused by alcohol intoxication, alcohol intoxication and drowning. It's a shame because I remember reading was a shame full stop. Also, she was in London to record some new music. I think from what I remember reading when she died. So I mean, something like that. It's kind of is you know what's what was going on? Can we clearly say that Dolores O'Riordan from the cranberries died because of

Unknown Speaker 19:00

diet culture, anti fatness, I think it's, it's a contributing reason, right. And a lot of times people who have restrictive eating disorders using using drugs or using alcohol, so you know, it I feel like this one's not as clear cut because of you know, as well the trauma that she experienced when she was younger. But I think it sounds like it had a contributing factor towards it. Yeah. Because Because Because Because Because Because just the act of not having enough food really, really fucks with our bodies, right? It means that we're our bodies. It's like

Unknown Speaker 19:40

food is is helping provide the building blocks for us to be robust humans and I feel like it's a house that's built from bricks or a house. It's built from straw and the less the less food that you have, the less ability that you have to continue living and weather the storm.

Unknown Speaker 20:00

was right and so if your house is built of straw, then you're more likely to get sick and you're more likely to feel the effects of, of alcohol and not be able to recover when when things happen. So, you know, like with the cricketer saying,

Unknown Speaker 20:18

it makes you more prone to not being able to recover from from a heart attack. And I feel like with with not eating enough,

Unknown Speaker 20:30

and dieting and having an eating disorder, it's the same type of thing like and that's, you know, a lot of times that's what happens when someone does have anorexia is that you know, the heart is weakened and they and they could get a you know, pneumonia or something and then and then die. Okay, so someone else commented, add Brittany Murphy to that list, for sure. Anorexia leading to her immune system being weak, and just what I just said, and never have enough for her to have to have a community acquired pneumonia, which is really, really rare and young people. So here's some quotes from an article from the cut. Sounds like there's a new document new documentary coming out. Well, that was in 2020 2021. But the whole Brittany Murphy thing is is weird, right? There's lots of things going on her she had a controlling husband and her mom was like, in there too. And there was you know, there was weird stuff going on. So let me give you some quotes from here in 1999. Murphy Murphy, already a rising star started visibly losing weight and dyeing her hair blonde. Kathy Najimy of her king of the hill co star, her king of the hill co starred recalls Murphy saying, that's what I've been told if I want to be considered leading lady I have to lose a lot of weight. Now people who were my age, she was in

Unknown Speaker 21:54

not Legally Blonde. Clueless. She was in clueless. Do you remember like, if you're the same age as me, I'm 38 Watching clueless and being in my head. In my head. She was fat. She was not fat.

Unknown Speaker 22:14

I'm gonna make a post soon of all the people that were that IN THE 90s IN THE naughties. We were like, oh my god, they're so fat and they are not fat. So anyway, yeah, they're saying she needs to lose a lot of weight. She was ever so slightly soft. You know, like, just still growing like that's, that's the the, you know, still, you know, under the age of 25. You know, that type of thing. So, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 22:48

So continuing, Murphy was somewhat open about her transformation, though. She adamantly denied having an eating disorder. So she'd lost a lot of weight. In 2000. She told interview an interview, I guess ism magazine or something. A very important person in Hollywood said I was huggable but not fuckable.

Unknown Speaker 23:06

So I got these extensions put in my head that made a big difference. You know, that person in Hollywood.

Unknown Speaker 23:12

She is huggable and fuckable. She was and she did put more parts including her role alongside Ashton Kutcher in just married. HBOs documentary includes a recording of the Howard Stern Show from shortly after the CO stars began dating in which turn can be her telling Kutcher. Can you believe she was the ugly chicken clueless, she was a fat, ugly chick, She transformed herself. And I'm just looking at pictures from just married. So just married was in

Unknown Speaker 23:45

2003, clueless was 1995 So it was eight years later, she clearly she's tiny and then just married. I know she looks the same to me. Oh, no. She just has blonde hair and include us. She has brown hair. I don't I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 24:03

I guess she dated Ashton Kutcher in, in real life. And that Howard Stern. He proceeded to tell Kutcher that Murphy looked like she had, quote, been around the block a few times, and that he quote, better wear a condom if she'd been with Eminem, of course appraised for Murphy's extreme weight loss soon turned to talk of an eating disorder without much regard for her actual health. Bruce Bibi, a journalist who wrote for IE under the pseudonym Ted Casablanca, said in the documentary that, quote, she was going around with a scarlet a on her body for anorexia. Everyone knew it. Everyone talked about it.

Unknown Speaker 24:42

According to Nat NAT Jimmy's account, Murphy was at a low point when monk mon Monjack entered her life in 2007. So Monjack was her soon to be husband, two years before she died. It's not clear if she was yet abusing prescription pills but the room has her

Unknown Speaker 25:00

started and the press had become fixated on her weight loss. She was quote, muddled and desperate, in a dramatic, nudging me says, and, quote, became prey to things that she thought would help her. She fired her entire team when they express concerned about about Monjack. In stating him as her agent, manager, lawyer and eventually even makeup artist. He took over her financial decisions and drove her everywhere. Friends say she changed her phone numbers making it impossible for anyone to reach her without going through her husband and then continuing after they left the set of the color. So Monjack would go with her to film sets.

Unknown Speaker 25:42

So after the left that left the set of the color, which is filming in Puerto Rico, Murphy, her mother and Monjack all came down with what they called flu like symptoms. According to the coroner, they treated themselves with over the counter medications and when Murphy's conditions didn't improve, no one took her to get medical attention attention shortly before she died. She spoke with Monjack mother on the phone telling her I'm having trouble breathing. I can't breathe. When I go to the top of the stairs, she said Do you think I'm dying? The medical examiner who did her autopsy found that Murphy was already extremely anemic, a result of not getting enough nutrients which lowered her resistance to illness. If any doctor had seen her hemoglobin levels a week or two she died. According to the M E Medical Examiner, she would have been hospitalized at some point she developed pneumonia which could have been easily detected by a chest X ray and treated at hospital. According to the coroner, had they taken her to the doctor a few days before she died. she'd still be alive. Brittany Murphy died December 20 2009. Age 32 Okay, the next comment someone said Judy Garland comes to mind. She was known to have a long history of heavy disordered eating and dieting. And while she died of an accidental overdose, there was speculation that her prolonged eating disorder contributed to her death as well. I think I remember hearing they pushed her into taking drugs to control her weight too. It definitely caused her substance addiction addiction. Okay, some so some quotes. Judy Garland was 16 when she starred in her breakout role. 1939 is the Wizard of Oz at just four feet 11 and a half inches Garlan had a cute girl next door charm helped set her apart from her glamorous contemporaries like Elizabeth Taylor and Ava Gardner. But with success would come the need to maintain her youthful looks and thin frame pressures from Hollywood studio MGM that would feel the legendary songstresses drug abuse and eventually led to her death. Now more than four decades after her accidental drug overdose took her life at age 47. A new memoir about the late star pulls back the curtain on Garland's demons. The book Judy and I my life with Judy Garland is crafted from notes that said left the third of Garland's five husbands left unfinished before his 2005 death. But Garland's drug habit was believed to be an effort to numb her inner security's, particularly regarding her weight. Told by studio executives she had to watch her figure, she would go to extremes to lose any extra pounds. When she was filming 1950s summer stock for example, Luft said she stopped eating altogether. She was also reportedly just I don't want to say how much she weighs. She was also reportedly thin, while making 1940 threes presenting Lily Mars loved wrote that her entire life had been dominated by the constant pressure to be quote, camera slim, quote, most of her teen and adult life she had been on either Benzedrine or a diet or both, he wrote, explaining how garland attempted to manage her weight, a marriage her weight. Unlike other actresses, she could not successfully camouflage X ray but especially because she was dancing and singing and revealing costumes. Just four feet 11 and a half inches she could be underweight and still appear heavy or out of proportion on screen. Garland's love of food didn't help Luft detailed her fondness for Hearty meals chowing down on comfort foods like spaghetti and eventually alcohol. Notice how notice how they're saying, oh my goodness, she was dieting and you know, is precious to be thin. And then using stigmatizing language, for saying that she ate food fondness for Hearty meals. Ciao chowing down on comfort foods.

Unknown Speaker 29:55

Like I mean, get shouldn't get a break like In this article is saying did dieting kill her? And when they say that she ate because this is the this is the this is not love to the husband this is the reporter's words even now we're saying horrible when she did he was eating fucking rich and now you know like Jesus Christ your self awareness much reporter

Unknown Speaker 30:28

Okay continuing hoping to help garland revive her career loved wrote that he tried to encourage her to watch what she ate fuck you laughed at time she listened but other times it became a point of contention between the two yeah fuck off Allah Jesus like love to seen her being you know in this terrible situation and then he's the knees saying you need to lose weight feel better if I ate oats and hay she allegedly shot back at him once when he suggested she in apple instead of spaghetti yeah fuck you loved good for you Judy feel better if I hoped and oats and hey that's a that's that's a comeback

I mean Oh, she's she's getting it from all sides and then her person that she's meant to be, you know safe where they're saying eat an apple instead of food a meal.

Unknown Speaker 31:23

At one point he told her quote you must cut out all the hot fudge sundaes. You will door no more cheeseburgers. Blood rare forget heaps of mashed potatoes and gravy. No more Fettuccine Alfredo, he wrote.

Unknown Speaker 31:41

Oh my god, Judy was staring at me with a huge saucer eyes. No Alfredo, she echoed. I might not be able to go on. Yeah, yeah, you tell him Judy. Fine rude. Adding to the pressure surrounding food the press often grilled garland about her weight in an interview in 1951 last wrote that she told reporters I may be awfully flat fat but I feel good. She was actually pregnant and would like to have an abortion. Oh my god, Judy Garland sounds amazing. The I mean she's basically saying telling everyone to fuck off right.

Unknown Speaker 32:21

Lofton garland, who married in 1952 we're living quote virtually separate lives a decade later. He said the constant struggle to diet caused her to descend further and drove them further apart. Well maybe loved if you didn't fucking encourage her to have an eating disorder.

Unknown Speaker 32:38

He said if I were to show concern, she broke me out. Tell me to fuck off. He wrote. Yeah, good. Good.

Unknown Speaker 32:48

Yeah, I mean, like this show concern. One minute, he's like eat an apple and the next minute it's like, oh, maybe you should eat something. OFAC off. Yeah, fuck off. You tell her you tell him Judy. Despite having two children together, Lorna and Joey laughed. They divorced in 1965. A year later, she was completely broke her new managers having embezzled large sums from her she died in 1969. From an accidental overdose. She couldn't have weighed more than a low amount of weight he wrote she was totally burned out destroyed. I couldn't save her. Yeah, couldn't save her. You fucking the one that hurt her. Not the only one. But you know what, that that juxtaposition between Oh, loose way and Oh, but don't lose too much weight and, you know, don't be fat. But don't be don't be obsessed with being thin. You know, it's kind of like can't and that's what where we're at in society, right? of people are not everyone but a lot of people being like, you know, it's okay to be it's okay to be a little bit chubby mirboo. But you have to think about the health. You know, it's kind of like ah, can't you see how that's not helping?

Unknown Speaker 34:05

Okay, so Terry. She Arvo. So this is an older case. And I wasn't aware of this because it happened in North America. And it happened in the US and it was before my time. But basically, Terri she Arvo was someone she was famous after. She wasn't famous because before she was famous after she was dieting she fell in. She fell into a coma. And she was in a coma for 20 years. So at the age of like 20. She was in a coma for 20 years and her husband wanted to turn to stop. She was comatose, non responsive and doctor said that she would never recover. It'd been 20 years and they said they know her brain was was really small. And there was no activity.

Unknown Speaker 35:02

And so it was a famous court case of her husband wanted to let her die and her parents said that she wouldn't have wanted that. Eventually, a judge ruled that she was allowed to die at her husband's wishes, and she was then starve to death, which I mean,

Unknown Speaker 35:24

horrific. Anyway. So, some quotes about this. Beneath all the controversy surrounding the Terri Schiavo case, is an important detail about what brought on her condition in the first place. Complications from an eating disorder that caused heart failure, and lead to severe brain damage should actually have those cases tragic for innumerable reasons, but it should also serve as a wake up call that eating disorders can have have serious sometimes fatal consequences. Robert Buzzell NBC News's chief science correspondent explain explains the dangers of eating disorders and why she always case should be a cautionary tale for many. How is it that an eating disorder can lead to heart failure? And in the extreme case of Chavo, a vegetative state? I don't know if vegetative state is the correct words that we should be using nowadays, that seems pretty not accurate. You know, because it's kind of dehumanizing, saying vegetable, you know, is someone who is non responsive is still a human, right? They're not they've not turned anyway. I don't know about that. But I don't like that. Okay, well, fortunately, it is very rare thing that can happen. But when people have bulimia, which is what Terry Chavo is reported to have people eat large amounts and then purge themselves by either vomiting or using laxatives extensively, extensively. Bulimia can cause a sudden dehydration of the body that causes an imbalance of electrolytes, and particularly potassium. When that happens, it can cause irregularities in the electrical signal. So it could cause a heart to stop beating. That is reportedly what happened to Terry Chavo.

Unknown Speaker 37:00

She died in 1995. And was 41 years old. Yeah. Oh, um, you know, by the way, I said, Oh, isn't that horrible that they she died by they stopped, they stopped feeding her. What I mean by that is that, Isn't it a shame that we don't have in most of places in the world? Legal euthanasia. So how, you know, she could have been given an injection and, and died peacefully. Whereas because of legislation about that, in most places in the world, she had to die slowly, which seems cruel. I don't know, you know, someone is is. And I know, that's probably the decision that many people have to make. Right. And I'm not saying it's a wrong decision, but it seems, wouldn't have been wouldn't be nicer for everyone. If, instead of having to make that decision, someone could just be given an injection and die quickly and peacefully. Yeah. And it's tough, right? Because obviously, she's unresponsive. And but how much would she be aware of, if anything, and I think this case was like, basically, she's not aware of anything. And but it was quite controversial. So you know, I don't know all the details. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 38:13

And happened in 1995. So maybe if this happened today, it might be different. Who knows?

Unknown Speaker 38:19

And I wonder, like, if the parents wanted to her to be alive, why wouldn't the husband just be like, hey, parents, you can, you know, look after her, or was the husband like, Oh, I know that this is what she wanted. Who knows? Who knows? Anyway? Some people might be like, I'm gonna do some watching YouTube about this as I want to know more like, a lot of these things. I'm like, oh, I need to know more about this. Okay, someone else said Roy Orbison died at 52 literally from yo yo dieting. So Roy Orbison saying pretty woman walking down the street pretty woman. That kind of how I like to move.

Unknown Speaker 38:59

Next girl, my kind of girl I like to me

Unknown Speaker 39:03

and others, so other songs Pretty Woman singer Roy Orbison wasn't one for drugs or alcohol during his 30 year career. Yet a TV documentary is claiming the 1960s star famed for such hits as only the lonely and crying I don't know any of the lonely crying is it cry

Unknown Speaker 39:25

Nover you something like that?

Unknown Speaker 39:29

Had a different kind of dangerous addiction. Yo Yo dieting. FYI. Dieting is not an addiction. It's you know, a lot of people are like, I'm addicted to this and that and whatever. And it's not actually addiction, right.

Unknown Speaker 39:43

The singer and songwriter died at the age of 52, following a heart attack while visiting his mother, the mother in Hendersonville, Tennessee. American pathologist Dr. Michael Hunter claims the reason behind the rock and roll icons death was due to an unhealthy obsession with his diet, the cycle

Unknown Speaker 40:00

will have substantial weight gain followed by drastic weight loss would have undoubtedly placed tremendous strain on his heart Dr. Hunter reveals in a new episode of autopsy, the last hours of which is due to be aired in the UK later this year.

Unknown Speaker 40:18

Yeah, yeah. And we already know that that weight cycling yo yo dieting, which is just basically dieting is not good for our health.

Unknown Speaker 40:28

Yeah. Okay, so someone says I sometimes wonder about Prince. There were early interviews where he talks about staying thin in our alarming way. Okay, so with Prince

Unknown Speaker 40:44

there was his personal chef

Unknown Speaker 40:48

leaked kind of like what was his final meal, that type of stuff and, and but I wasn't able to find stuff about him talking about staying thin, probably because if it was in early interviews, that would just be like, late classes, health advice, or whatever. But I'm sure if I did a bit more digging, I'd find it but here's what the enemy has reported. Prince was eating less and losing weight towards the end of his life. The musicians personal shift has revealed Ray Roberts worked for Prince for the last three years and cooked all of his meals at his Paisley Park home, as well as joining him on tour. Speaking to The Associated Press. Roberts confirmed that he noticed a change in Prince's diet in his final weeks and added that his boss was regularly ill to it felt like he wasn't himself. Probably the last month or two Robert said. I think he was just struggling with being sick a lot. The chef added that Prince would have sore throats or seem that he wasn't feeling well for quote weeks at a time this year. His regular diet of roasted beetroot and spicy soups changed as he started drinking smoothies and fresh juices to soothe his throat and stomach. Notice how both of those things are not proper meals. Roasted beetroot is not a meal soup is not a meal right? Need to be having more and so normally he's just he's not eating enough right? Roberts cook for prints the evening before the musician was found dead at his home I mean soup if it was like super hearty and had loads of things in it and you know you had like bread and stuff that you know, of course you would eat sometimes you'd eat soup for lunch or whatever but you know

Unknown Speaker 42:34

if that's all you're eating, then that's not enough right. Rob has cooked for Prince the evening before the musician was found dead at his home however the roasted red pepper bisque with kale and spring vegetable salad went and eaten. So this is not enough. This is not enough food. roasted red pepper best best is soup right? With kale and spring vegetable salad. So soup and salad.

Unknown Speaker 42:58

You missing something from this you need, you know, a sandwich in there at least.

Unknown Speaker 43:04

The Cook said that he found a plate of food in Prince's fridge when he returned to the property following news of his death. Prince died April 27th 2021 21/21 2016 H 57. So I mean, inconclusive.

Unknown Speaker 43:21

And as well, you know, by the way, a lot of times people could be dying from not eating enough food and it could be just reported as natural causes. For example, Lisa Marie Presley, a lot of news outlets were just saying that she died of natural causes she they didn't mention anything to do with bariatric surgery. So, you know, I think the awareness now is bringing this stuff to light but

Unknown Speaker 43:50

yeah, my

Unknown Speaker 43:51

what's her name? What's her name from the Mamas and the Papas Casserly Mama Cass and I think they said that she died of natural causes, but she, she, and then the press was like, she died choking on a ham sandwich, which is a lie. That didn't happen. But she was taking tons of diet pills. So, I mean, at that time, I can't remember when she died, probably the 70s or 80s or whatever. But, you know, the press would not would not be like Auntie fatness killed Mama Cass

Unknown Speaker 44:23

instead, they made a joke about it, saying that she you know, and that was like an urban legend that went around so I'm not sure if mainstream press will reporting that I probably

Unknown Speaker 44:36

okay, next person said led Krieger, Korea Krieger. He went on crash diet so that he could get leading men roles instead of being the villain. He died after undergoing weight loss surgery 31 years old. Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 44:53

so we've got mixed reports on this the so the crash diet that Krieger followed for his roles and The Lodger and the high end

Unknown Speaker 45:00

hang over square, which included prescribe amphetamines play strain on his system, resulting in severe abdominal problems. He underwent surgery at the beginning of December 1944. Okay, so we have reports he goes undergo surgery because weight loss drugs, of course caused him abdominal problems. All right, we don't know what the surgery is. According to TCM host, Eddie Mueller is January 2023 Post film comments on hangover square. The procedure was bariatric surgery, intended to control his weight. Mueller's source, however, was a website with fictional stories told in the first person by dead people, including Krieger. The fictional story also suggested that Krieger was gay and was involved in a murder. In fact, the first weight loss surgery was performed in 1954 10 years after Kriegers death.

Unknown Speaker 46:01

Okay, so, so there seems to be some like false reports. So he died in 1944. I just reported on the first bariatric surgery, actually, let's see. When was that? Let's just double check what they say in 1954. Yeah, the weight loss first weight loss surgery. However, however, there could have been surgeries that weren't officially labeled bariatric surgeries. That could be something in the region of it, you know, or he had this surgery caused by dieting diet pills, right? The surgery and it says a few days after the surgery, he had a heart attack and died. So that sounds like he died from the surgery. The surgery was because of complications from taking amphetamines to lose weight. So I feel like there's partial truth there. We don't know. And also we can't say for sure if it's the surgery that did kill him. But he was only 31 years old. Also, he you know, he wasn't we didn't seem to me like he was a fat person.

Unknown Speaker 47:17

So not that that's got really anything to do with anything. I don't know. I said that. I guess what I was saying is that, you know, people could say well, he died because of fatness and we know that you know, people don't die from fatness they die from

Unknown Speaker 47:32

things associated with fatness which is caused by a variety of things, mostly anti fat bias. But could he be have been suffering from anti fat bias? Yes 100% You know, he's that sounds like he wanted to you know, have these roles we've not playing the victim. So, he died. He rallied briefly after his heart attack when he was putting in oxygen tent but died December 9 9044. H 31. His mother was at his bedside hangover Square was released two months after his death. Okay, someone else said Canada's I think Canada's beloved actor and comedian John Candy could be added to this list.

Unknown Speaker 48:16

Yeah, John Candy love him. The best wasn't the amazing Okay, so quotes candies father died, died of heart disease into at 35 years old. His brother suffered a heart attack as well. With his family history looming over him candy, went on diets and worked with trainers to attempt to get in better shape. Quote, I know what I have to do. If I want to lose weight and stay healthy, eat a proper diet and exercise. He said in 1948 1994. All I've got to do is apply it. At one point it seemed to be working candy went on, on so called Pritikin diet, losing

Unknown Speaker 49:00

a large amount of weight in a summer. He always worked on his weight and his health said son Chris, his son Chris would say after his death, he had trainers and would work at whatever the new diet was. I know he did the his best. So let's see what the frickin diet is. And so again, he's losing a lot of weight over a short amount of time. Like I hate googling this stuff. It's just seems like you know, a diet doesn't seem like well, you're not allowed

Unknown Speaker 49:29

a lot of things. So plant based diet, basically mean any diet is bullshit, but it didn't sound like it was like some extreme thing.

Unknown Speaker 49:39

So he died on the fourth of March 1994 At the age of 43. The star had been working on his film Wagons East in Mexico when he suffered a fatal heart attack. Sounds like he has a massive genetic predisposition to issues with his heart. So

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Who knows, right? Who knows? Who knows if it's a case of you know, he's doing all these these diets to lose a lot of weight and I mean, losing I don't want to say how much he lost but the extreme that is an extreme diet, like what that could be doing to his predisposition for surviving a heart attack with his brother survived one. Could it be that if he wasn't dieting that he could have survived this heart attack? Who knows? Right kind of speculation. All right, Aaron Carter. So Aaron Carter was the brother of one of the Backstreet Boys.

Unknown Speaker 50:39

And if you're my age, he was famous when we were young. So Aaron Carter is opening up about his health. The singer posted a string of tweets, detailing his struggle with hiatal hernia, which he called, quote, a terrible stress conditions that affects me having an appetite and, quote an eating disorder. By the way, y'all want to know why I'm so skinny Carter wrote in his first tweet on the subject is because at 19, I was diagnosed with hiatal hernia, I didn't choose that be kind to me. According to the Mayo Clinic's online database, a hiatal hernia occurs when part of the stomach pushes upwards into the diaphragm, often causing heartburn and other symptoms including feeling especially full after meals. So to visualize it, so imagine the stomach and then imagine, you know, the, the the tube going into the stomach, but the tube has like a tennis ball

Unknown Speaker 51:38

at the top of it, and so it's like a protrusion

Unknown Speaker 51:42

above where the stomach is. So presumably you'd eat something and it would go into that smaller pocket

Unknown Speaker 51:51

and that you would feel full and then obviously, that would feel uncomfortable because it's outside of where the stomach is. Okay, so continuing, I'm sorry, sometimes I really wish I did look better or eat more like y'all say, this life doesn't come with much stability, Carter continued. If you don't believe me as my brother, he was there when I was 19. diagnosed. It's a stress eating disorder. I'm sorry, I didn't choose this. I was curious about him saying it's a stress eating disorder.

Unknown Speaker 52:19

i What does he mean by that? Like he can't eat he couldn't eat as much because

Unknown Speaker 52:26

of this thing. Would it be classed as an eating disorder as a mental mental illness? Well, hiatal hernia can be caused after excessive induced vomiting. So perhaps some something like that was going on? I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 52:48

Or not? I don't know. Okay, so, November 5 2022. Carter died at his home in Lancaster, California at age 34. His body was found in his bathtub by housekeeper. An autopsy performed a book to the cause of death deferred pending toxicology report. He had a twin sister called Angel. That's a shame. On April 20, April 18 2023, the Los Angeles County Medical Examiner coroner announced that Carter drowned after inhaling.

Unknown Speaker 53:19

I won't read the drug names, because they're long but he he inhaled, you know, gas from spray bottle things. And then another drug. So his death was accidental, according to official ruling.

Unknown Speaker 53:34

So I don't know. I don't know where that one. There's no clear evidence that he had an IDI he was small. He was small, right? He couldn't who had a smaller body. But there could be something there. I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 53:51

Yeah, so he died in 2022. H 34. Okay, someone else said Scotty singer Lina is everone. Her tail is equally tragic anorexia story story. So Lina is everone was a Scottish singer and a television show host at 10 years of age with her album, ma he's making eyes at me. That's so creepy. Ma he's making eyes at me and she was 10 years old.

Unknown Speaker 54:22

Like a romantic song. That's creepy as fuck man. She was the youngest person in history to have an album and the top 10 UK album charts and then we have this article talking about the mum is saying the mum says I noticed her getting very thin and look and took her to the doctor says xever Only the mum. I noticed I know about anorexia now because I made it my business to but then you'd never heard the name. The doctor said your daughter has this psychological illness. She was at the Italia Conti performing arts school then and they were all on diets. Their goals are good

Unknown Speaker 55:00

ELS and don't like to get to fat. We're all like that. But then it got extreme. Isn't that interesting, right, the mummy saying girls or girls will be girls. They don't want to get fat. By the way, the mums fat.

Unknown Speaker 55:16

Were like that, but then it just got extreme it goes into the mind her not eating was a never ending battle is a very difficult illness for the person and for the people around them. The only thing Lina ever complained about was her illness. It was a torment to her she'd say, as its she'd say it is as if I'm living in a tunnel.

Unknown Speaker 55:35

So from the age of 13, she had anorexia and also developed clinical press depression when she was 15. Following a, an operation to cure her depression. She died from pneumonia age 35 in 1999.

Unknown Speaker 55:58

The details around this operation are sketchy. But I saw the word look bottom me thrown around in the Wikipedia article.

Unknown Speaker 56:08

I thought the bottom is were made illegal like a long time ago. Let me let me see it unless there's like some other like, version of it like an operation to for her depression.

Unknown Speaker 56:19

The bottom me? Yeah, lobotomy became popular in 1930s. Maybe people still do it, but didn't seem to be an ND Oh, it's banned. Okay. It's banned. So wandering the planet.

Unknown Speaker 56:32

The Soviet Union banned it in 1950. By 1970s, numerous countries had banned the procedure, as had several US states. So if by 1970s, it was banned, then.

Unknown Speaker 56:48

Why words? Interesting. We'll have to look more. We'll have to look more into that. And what this what this surgery is, maybe it's like lobotomy type, but it's not an actual lobotomy.

Unknown Speaker 57:07

Okay, so this is what this is what the Wikipedia article says.

Unknown Speaker 57:11

In September 1999, Zamboni was admitted to the University of hospital Wales and Cardiff before the psycho surgical operation.

Unknown Speaker 57:21

They say the operation but they've not mentioned that operation before, so I'm guessing it should be a psycho surgical operation. It took place on the seventh of September and was described as quote, pioneering. After the operation, she appeared to be in a satisfactory condition and after a week she was quote, making telephone calls cheerful and engaging in conversation, even asking her doctor if she thought there were any chance that she could get back on stage and sing again. However, three, three weeks after the operation, she contracted pneumonia, which saw her weight drop,

Unknown Speaker 57:53

and she died from bronchial pneumonia on the first of October, although some reports said that the surgery was a lobotomy, also known as a loose cut to me. The hospital said that it was not and the treatment was intended for depression rather than anorexia as was rumored at the time. I'm not interesting. So I wonder what that one but what the fuck that was that was in 1999. Something like 20 ish years ago, we'll be doing a lobotomy in Wales. Where yodels Okay, the last one Maria calles Maria calles all these people who were saying is

Unknown Speaker 58:35

she was an opera singer. Quote, when she lost an incredible photo. Not gonna say when she lost lots of weight in one year Maria callus transformed herself from this is an article written recently.

Unknown Speaker 58:52

So stigmatizing she's transformed herself from fat and dowdy. Into spelt as into a spelt an elegant diva.

Unknown Speaker 59:03

I roll

Unknown Speaker 59:05

the pressure to say thing was tremendous for the food loving soprano.

Unknown Speaker 59:10

Again, again, with the shaming, like classifying someone as as food loving, as if that's a bad thing. We're all food loving. We're humans we eat food Jesus Christ, newly published newly published personal papers so show how she tried to comfort herself during her tormented battle battles with her weight. I mean, like this, I mean, again, the sentence before they saying that She transformed herself from fat and dowdy to smelt, inelegant, and the next week next sentence Oh, she's tormented with battles with a wait. Well, because people like you have written shit like that. And then that's now imagine if it was when she was around way more cruel. Okay, so Candace began a habit

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

have meticulously recipe collecting scribbling down instructions for her favorite dishes. As she traveled the world. She would steal recipes from famous cooks in hotels, writing them and scraps of paper and stuffing them into her handbag but the they were for food she herself would never eat. She loved food, especially cakes and puddings, but lived mostly on steak and salad, said calles expert Bruno Tosi, who was allowing their handwritten recipe recipes to be published for the first time in Italy. Writing down these recipes was a vicarious pleasure because she rarely allowed herself to taste any of them.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:34

It goes on to talk about how she would have dinner parties and stuff and get the recipes made by her chefs but she wouldn't eat any of it.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:44

calluses international career began in 1947 opera singers were expected to be fat. Oh, really? I haven't heard that one before the upper swimmers were expected to be fat in 1947. Is that true? I'm gonna put a pin in that with Uh huh. They don't use the word fat by the way, but

Unknown Speaker 1:01:06

I'm not gonna say how much you weighed. But at a book being fat she felt miserable and regarded set herself as ugly and unlovable. When the director Luchino Visconti told her to lose loads of weight. Before he would work with her she dropped even more weight than he told her. She then went on to lose even more weight according to legend, calluses enormous weight, or for fuck sake. Oh, enormous weight loss. Sorry. enormous weight loss. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:38

Good luck and now. According to legend, calluses enormous weight loss came about because she deliberately swallowed a tapeworm. Tosi, president of the International Maria callus Association says she did have to have treatment for worms possibly because of a fondness for raw steak, but she dropped the weight by following diet based on consuming ideen. It was a dangerous treatment because it affected the central nervous system and changed her metabolism. But she turned into a beautiful swan said Tosi.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:10

Oh mean my God, she's eating ideen.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:16

It affected her central nervous system changed her metabolism, but felt that she became she turned to a beautiful swan. Oh, for fucks sake. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:27

no wonder people struggled when. That's how people talk talked about them knowing that they suffered tremendously, even after they're dead.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:38

Oh my god. Anyway, Kara spent her last years living in Nigeria in isolation in Paris and died of a heart attack age 53 September 16 1977. So she was married to her what's his name? annacis.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:53

Horatio and asas someone shouted me like now it's this analysis Alberto and Googler who went on who left her for Jackie Onassis Jackie Kennedy, who turned into annacis.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:08

So she was really heartbroken from that. And he was like a shipping magnate Aristotle. I knew it was some I knew it was a name. I know it's some name like that. Aristotle

Unknown Speaker 1:03:20

looks like that. Looks like he was with Jackie Onassis from 1968 to 1975 He died in 1975

Unknown Speaker 1:03:31

wonderful happy to happen to Jackie Onassis

Unknown Speaker 1:03:35

died in 1994 it see how the how you can go into frickin rabbit holes with this you'd like oh, let me see about Jackie Onassis Jackie Kennedy.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:48

Had she die? What about John F Kennedy? What about this one? What about his assassination? What about the gunman? What about

Unknown Speaker 1:04:02

this other murder he likes?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:05

I think that I think she had to she had non on non Hodgkins lymphoma.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:10

She died aged 64

Unknown Speaker 1:04:14

Anyway, we're not talking about Jackie Onassis Jackie Kennedy.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:20

Yeah, so so so yeah, so so so so so so so so that's the end of all of the people that things that people suggested and you might be like, hang on, you're missing a load of other famous people because they were in the first episode but I'm gonna make this into a an Instagram post and put it on there. So if you've got others that you like, what about this one? What about that one? We can we can look into that if there's lots of other people suggested. And I mean, shit. This is all fucked up. Isn't it? Isn't this horrible? I hate this. I was just, I find it like especially with the mum, the mum of the Scottish singer.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:57

Being like, you know girls will be girls. We all

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

don't want to be fat, like, how erial like, how it's just so accepted, you know? Weird, right? Weird and alarming. It's alarming, you know. And everyone, thank you for hanging out with me today. If you want to see the first post that I posted,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:22

I'll leave a link in the bio with the other ones. Not not all, not all of them, because some of them it's like, in the last episode, some of them it's like, oh, yeah, clearly they died of they died because of anti fat bite is because someone said, You're told that you're too fat, you need to lose weight, and then they developed an eating disorder. Some of these are kind of like, I mean, Lisa Marie Presley. Yes. 100%. Shane warm. Yes. You know, Brittany Murphy, I'd say that's a that's a strong kind of like, sounds like her body was really weak. Because you didn't have enough food. Terry's Chavo Yes. Royal was on Yes. LED Krieger. Yes, yeah, I mean, so. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:06

You know, there's a few weeks like, I'm not sure. leaners rivers of Verona. Yeah. So anyway, okay, so thanks for hanging out I'm gonna stop talking I'm gonna go make some lunch suppose because I'm hungry, especially talking about all of this stuff. Oh, yeah. And if you'd like to show you want to contribute towards me continue making the show go to Kofi and depending on the level, you sign up for as little as $5 you can get free shirts, so

Unknown Speaker 1:06:37

go check that out. Remember to stay face ratty and I will see you in a while alligator.

Episode 175 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

.You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 175, 6 things you could be doing that supports anti fatness and can ruin body confidence. Let's do it.

Hello, welcome to this episode. I'm your host, Vinny pronouns. Live NRI era I'm alright. Hey, you liked the show one more of the show. Donate on cofee link in the show notes. Links for anything I'm talking about in this episode in the show notes. You know what this show notes doesn't have any links. Oh my glob. No. No links was today. But apart from Kofi if you want to do and donate and kofi, I'm not going to bang on about it. I seen this meme. This is a meme and I feel I feel it to my bones. What it says the meme says podcaster says, Okay, let's jump right into today's episode. And it's 40 minutes into the show already. That's what I feel like sometimes I do. I've been for ages. I'm trying not to do it. Because you know what? I'm like, it feels like you're my friend. And I need to tell you is it what have I been doing? What I've been reading what I've been watching or whatever. And I don't know you're probably not here for that. You're here for like, tell me there's six things that's in this episode. Oh, no. Maybe you do like it? I don't know. Give you a book recommendation. I gave you one last time. If you've never read it fat. So by Marilyn Wan is really fun. And it just held up really well considering it was I'm just holding up now I'm just looking at it. When was it? It was published in like 1995 or something. First printing that in 98 You know why? as well. Also, on the corner of the pages it's got like a little dancing fat woman it's hard to see on video anyway. But yeah, I mean, if I had written a book in 1998, Jesus Christ what would be in it? awful stuff. But Marilyn Wan current stuff in here. The heroes and villains of fat history. One of the villains is Gene night itch, founder of Weight Watchers. A hero Ganesha. Well, I thought it was always thought it was ganache. Hindu day T which is like elephant hero, Lillian Russell, a singer from 1861 to 1922. Opera singer, and then a villain. This is one of the villains that we talked about in the show. Louis Dublin insurance executive from the metro Metro metropolitan Metropolitan Life Insurance Company. You remember when when we talk about Louie Dublin. We spoke about Louis Dublin in the biggest scammers of the dye industry. Yeah, he was the one who let's see what it says about him here. Created and popularized height weight chart setup. And then we've got one of the villains Irving Fisher first calorie counter. A hero Renny Leatherneck inventor of the stethoscope, I guess Rene was a fat person villain. William William Banting 19th century diet a guru wrote the first popular modern diet book, which was called letter on Corpulence from 1863 sold more than 58,000 copies at six months of peace. Yeah, interesting. Anyway, it's like this. This is like a cool little magazine, but it's in a book. They go there's a little thing for you on their written frickin book and you're like fucking get on with the show God many. Anyway, so today we talk about the six things you could be doing that supports anti fatness and can ruin body confidence and this is for anyone in any body size. So, let's do it the first thing because you know what? I've been looking at old stuff that I've been making content for like, a really long time now, well, a really long time, like 10 years. And even like fat liberation stuff from like, 24 No, not that long 2014 2015 I just looked at a video from 2016 Can that be true that long? Anyway, and it was kind of like five things that you're doing that make you hate your body. And I was like, you could is interesting because you can see the growth that you have as a person of, you know, maybe thinking more nuanced about topics and thinking more intersectionally which is which is cool to cool to see. And also scary. Because in like, five years time, I don't want to be listening back to, you know, something I'm saying now being like, Oh, my God, what an absolute dickhead. I probably wouldn't be but you know, because I'm now I'm just saying, Oh, I you know, I have more nuance now. It's not like I was saying in 2016, I was a dickhead. But anyway, that life of putting content in the world of people can say, we're gonna have opinions, right? And that's absolutely fine. People are gonna have opinions and to, to live with other people having opinions about you, I think it's a skill right? Sometimes easier, sometimes harder. Okay, so six things you could be doing that supports anti fatness and you can add can ruin body confidence, maybe apologies to people listening to the podcast on YouTube over video, my my phone just decided to overheat so I could no longer use it. So I'm recording the video on my pad. Who knows how much memory my little old iPad has been doing? Oh, you would not believe the Palawa I needed my iPhone battery change because there was I bought a cheap charging cord. And it fried my phone. So I've now or something else to do with the electric or something. Anyway, so I got a went in to get into like a non authorized Apple dealer. And they replaced the battery. But then the screen was damage to the replaces screen. And then that screen came back and then that screen was damaged. I had like a something on the pixels. So then I went back again and then that screen was damaged. So this is third screen 123 screens. And then yesterday I went back and I got the fourth screen. And then since then my phone has been overheating and it's been having weird screens coming on to the screen and stuff and so they've done something I don't know what it is I don't have to go to back again. So I think I'm gonna call him and say a listen I'm gonna go to an authorized Apple dealer and whatever they find if it's got anything to do with you replacing the battery or the screens and you can pay for that to be fixed might be something else but I mean Oh lucky I my it those things like I wish I wouldn't like blame the person in store I just be like, ah shit happens so but I can imagine for a lot of people that would be very frustrating for me too, but you know, I try to be chill about it. Anyway, so let's get back to it. Number one making structural in accessibility and stigma about fat bodies being wrong versus systemic anti fatness, aka clothes don't fit. Therefore I am bad. Fat people seeking equity means they are troublemakers. So I think this is a big mind shift thing, that if we are able to make that shift in our thinking, it's really really powerful. And so I'm going to give you some examples. So like what that shift could be so instead of thinking these don't clothes don't fit so you try something on it doesn't fit or you go to a store and they don't carry your size. My body is wrong. This is proof that I am too big. This is proof that I'm outta control. This is proof that I'm an attractive etc. Instead of that self blaming thought or if you're a straight size, person thinking if that people don't fit then that means that they are wrong. Changing it to these clothes don't fit. They are not for me. They don't serve me clothing should be accepted. Simple, right? And thinking about, you know, the way that clothing used to be made, every single piece of clothing was tailored to that person it was made for them. And then when mass manufacturing came along, and they, you know, had a range of sizes, and that was it, then the people's bodies had to fit into the clothes, not the other way around. But in reality, the clothes should be fitting to us. And if they don't, you know, it's not you, that's the problem. And also, even if you are fitting into a certain size range, your size, whatever body, another person with that same size body could come along, and their body could have completely different measurements, they might have, you know, a smaller belly, but a bigger bum or wider legs, or, you know, whatever. And so even in someone who is a similar size, they could look totally different in the same piece of clothing. So it's not your body's fault. It's the fact that this thing that is meant to be serving you an item of clothing, its existence is to be able to fit a human right, Your existence is not to be able to fit clothes. Or, say, if you're a straight size person, wow, that person is too big to fit on the roller coaster. How embarrassing. Instead shifting that thought to wow, that roller coaster is not accessible for fat bodies. That is not right. So instead of it being a problem for the person, it's a problem is a systemic it's an accessibility is an infrastructure problem. Or another example. It's not fair that people can get two seats on an airplane and take up my space. versus trying is not fair that airplane seats are not made for a lot of human bodies, and fat people often how often have to pay double to fly. If they even can fly, you know, because some folks that I was not accessible on airplane, or instead of people won't date me because I'm fat, and therefore I am unattractive. Try, people won't date me because I'm fat. And that means they are living with fat bias. That hurts me society and also hurts them. That's not okay. Also, they're losing out on this mega Babor. Which is me their laws. Okay, so that thought process of a fat body being a problem two systems of inequity being the problem. And actually, that's the way that a lot of Disability Rights Advocates define disability is that it is not the physical impairment that is disabling. It is the environment that is disabling. Because if the environment supported people with different abilities, there wouldn't be that dis ability. So disability referring to environmental factors, not individual impairment factors. Just realize that there you go. Don't get me I was thinking about that. And my brain was thinking about that. And I didn't even realize when I was making this. Okay, so number two is spending time with fat verbs and not setting boundaries. So if you have the privilege of being in a smaller body or white or someone with another privileged identity, then you need to use that power to shut down anti fatness. If you're fat, then, if it's possible, set boundaries with people about their anti fatness. If you can't set boundaries due to structural power differences, or, you know, many different reasons why you wouldn't set boundaries, it might not be the right time, you might decide it's not safe. It's not good for your mental health right now. But there's a lot of times that we could but we don't. Because we're nervous. We don't know how to do it. We don't want to cede power. Being close to what was it? I met my friend for lunch yesterday. And I said something you said she said you need to write that down. That is such a good quote. And it was I'm gonna write it down procs enmity to power is intoxicating. I'm probably stealing that from someone. Let me google it. I bet you like it will like that was said by someone really famous. And now I'm like, I've come up with this really good chi. Let me google it. procs procs immunity to power is in Docs cating Who's something from the University of Cambridge, the intoxication of power. subordinates become intimidated by the power of office and leaders become vessels of their projected fantasies is power intoxicating. Okay, so I don't think there's a quote from somebody. Proximity, the rays proximity to power is, is an idea, right? So, sometimes, not sometimes a lot of the times we don't want to cede our proximity to power by aligning with an other group, the other group in this situation being fat people or even if you are a fat person aligning with you know, ceding power, which is the power of being a quote, good, fatty we spoke about we've spoken about good fatty, slash bad, Fatty, on previous shows, episode, but basically good fatty as a fat person who is palatable, if you're a good fatty, then doesn't mean that you're bad or whatever. It's just, you know, things that we will do to survive. So a good fatty is probably a fatty that is like, I'm desperately trying to lose weight. I love eating salads, and working out all the time, I wear clothes that people feel more comfortable viewing me in a bad fatty would be like, fuck that I'm going to eat food, which you deem unhealthy. I'm going to not spend my life trying to be thin, etc, etc. The power of being seen as a good fatty is intoxicating. And the power of being in a smaller body, the power, the proximity to power. And the thing is like, if you're in a fat body, you've not you've not got that straight size, power, that straight large size privilege, right? But you're closer to it. If you're if you're a, quote, good, Fatty, and that's safer. So and so it doesn't mean that someone's like, Oh, I'm going to I'm going to fuck no, I'm not selling my power. It's just that it's more, it's more comfortable. It's easier, it's more convenient to not disrupt the status quo. And sometimes it's not safe to disrupt it. So like, it's complicated, right? So anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway, protecting yourself if you can't set boundaries, protecting yourself from the anti fatness that you're exposed to, and because it is really likely to affect you negatively, even if you don't think it does. Sometimes we're so like, you know, it's a tsunami of anti fatness, and that people are experiencing, and then, you know, a, like, a light breeze comes along. And it's like, well, that light breeze doesn't affect me. I'm used to a tsunami. But you know, once we've managed to remove ourselves from the path of that tsunami, that will realize that light breeze is actually a gale force wind. But sometimes we're just so used to so much anti fatness that, you know, you can feel like, why is it that big of a deal.

And I mean, if you've got someone being like, really, really awful to you, then the smaller things might not seem as big of a deal. But as you deal with them, the bigger things, the smaller things, you might realize that actually, that's also a big deal. Sometimes it's too much to think about like because it'd be overwhelming like, oh God, everyone in my life is anti fat. So anyway, so instead of hey, some scenarios, Mum, gossips saying your cousin still hasn't lost that baby weight. You responding with? Why are you monitoring people's weight? That is not okay. These are examples, right? You might be like, I would never do that my mum, or whatever sister tells you. She's taking weight loss and jet injection. She'll be like, Oh, my God knows I'm taking ozempic We go down on Tirzah Topo dot desertified. Whatever it is. Tell your sister. I love you. But don't support Auntie fatness. So please don't tell me any more about your weight loss efforts. I'm being quite direct here, right? There's ways that you can do this softer, more gentle. Or you can just say fuck off, right? You don't know. Whatever, whatever. Right? Whatever feels good for you. Okay, so, example, a friend says, I feel so fat and using fat in negative way. You know what would be so cool. If your friend says I feel so fat and they use it in a positive way. How cool would that be to hear? Oh, look how fat I look today. Aren't I juicy? Wouldn't that be so cool to hear? So if your friend says I feel so fat, ask you know say I'm sorry you're struggling. What's wrong with being fat? What is it that you're actually feeling? Do you want any tips on anti fatness on unlearning? Anti feminist? Not on anti feminists? They've already got that anti vaxxers down. Do you want any tips on learning anti fatness, hey this is account on Instagram that I like this podcast or listen to or you could say Don't talk to me about fat being a negative. Again this is important to think about your power in that situation your privilege in that situation. If your friend is a fat person and you are a straight sides person saying Don't talk to me about fat being a negative is going to hit differently than if you're a fat person hearing your thin friend say that because then you've got every right to be like shut the fuck up. If if it's you're a straight sized person and you're hearing your fat friends say I feel so fat going in with the you know I'm really struggling I'm really sorry that you're struggling with that and and what do you mean when you say fat? Like is it that you just feel like you're too big and and you know going in that way or or you might you know you might want to protect yourself because you can't hear that because you've got a history of of you know body image stuff. So finally weird uncle Keith makes a joke about fat people. So instead depending again on on your power and the situation and all that type of stuff. An idea is to remove yourself from the conversation. Say something like fat jokes aren't funny uncle gave change the subject or don't hang out with Uncle Keith anymore. So what I'm saying with this whole thing this whole section is spending time with fat folks and not sent it's setting boundaries is this stuff is impactful not only for you individually but for the world. Being a fat phobe is no longer acceptable like 2002 You know, when did shallow How come out? Like I thought that shit was hilarious. Shower how we used to be my favorites like top top 20 film shallow how? If anyone if you've not seen it, it's it's Gwyneth Paltrow wears a fat suit. Oh, world? 2001 Yeah. So I mean, it wasn't acceptable in 2001. But, you know, it was a lot more acceptable then. Yeah, so we don't Okay, there's not 2001 anymore. Well, you know, what are we inshallah how? And Jack blanks in it? I mean, come on. Jack backs, blacks been in a lot of phobic stuff. Okay, so, yeah, we can't just keep carrying on and being like, this is okay. And we're not going to say something when someone says something that is biased. And again, like a lot of people will do you know, a lot of people say to me, they're not saying that thing about me. Not everyone, because some people say yeah, we're uncle Keith says, I'm fat. And the fat is bad. Most of the time, people are saying, Oh, I mustn't eat that. And they're talking about themselves or, or, or being so naughty. And, and so it makes it harder, because they're not directly, like insulting you. But it doesn't make it okay. And that's like, the stuff that slips by and people, people will say, Ah, they're not saying it about me. So you know, what can I do? And my mum's never going to change, you know, my mom's 75. Now, and that's ages. And by the way, suggesting that people who are older cannot possibly learn because their brains are so old that you know that there's ageism it right? You have to give people the chance. And, yeah, I'm feeling like I'm being quite forceful and judgmental right now. So do what you want. I just don't want you on. But this is what I know is okay. When I'm talking to people, the same themes come up again and again. And the people who are further along in learning anti fatness, what I notice is that they're like, Fuck no, my mum used to talk about that shit, but I told her to shut up, or I don't have a relationship with my mum anymore. Or we're working on it, but she knows that whatever, you know, there's a difference right that I see of people who are further along in their own learning anti fatness journey and, and accepting themselves. Okay. So do what you want, ain't to bother you. But this is the things I notice. And also and also and also and also and also There's nuance in all of this that we're saying, because there's lots of different things that could be happening in your life outside of this. Okay, so number three, you don't understand or challenge your own anti fat beliefs. Okay, so you could feel okay in your current Bobbitt body, or maybe not, but you could still have a ton of anti fat beliefs. And the only time that they're going to come up is if you put on weight, then they'll come scurrying into your brain. Not always. But we're really good at thinking other people are attractive. People who look like us, and hating our own bodies being like, well, they, they know how to dress. This is a big one, but they look better. Like there's something better about them, even though their bodies exactly like mine. Or people who have bigger bodies, or you know, queer bodies in some way. Yeah, but but but but they're confident. Right? And because I'm not confident, therefore it means that my body is horrid. Yeah. So a way to understand or challenge your own anti fat beliefs is to ask yourself, if I were in a bigger body than the one I have today, what thoughts, fears, worries or beliefs come up? What would being fatter mean about me as a person? What would it mean about me as a person? What would it mean about my health? What would it mean about my tractability? My desirability would I be How might have I become a beggar? And you might say, well, I probably was lazy, or I probably did this or that. And so then it's like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Great. Okay, so, we've got a little bit of like laziness. Okay, so let's, let's lean into that. Let's explore more about fatness and laziness. And where does laziness come from? Where did we think white supremacy culture where everything shit comes from? So yeah, like health, desirability laziness? Will your partner like you? Will you have friends? Will you be lonely? will your life be destroyed? Things? Or, you know, you're like, this question I've asked many times. One or two people would be like, Oh, well, you know, my body probably would have done what it needed to do and I probably would have healed from my eating disorder. And I, you know, flabbergasted when I heard those answers. And that's, that's really cool. If you say something like that. Amazing. If you don't, don't feel bad, it just means that this just stuff is there. Right? That means that your brain is smart and soaked up the anti fat bias that is surrounding it. So say, for example, you're anti fat belief is I worry that if I had a bigger body, then I would have type two diabetes, I would have heart disease, I would have cancer. And so when I hear things like that, I might love it, because it's so clear, right? It's so clear. It's so digestible, and we can work on it. Okay, so we've got some bias around type two diabetes, heart disease, cancer and Pfanner. So you could say to yourself, I'm going to go to Hayes health sheets.com here we do have a link Hayes health sheeps.com And I'm going to look at what they say about those conditions and see if that helps, and if that doesn't help then I'm going to do some more research and look at other information and and also what could be causing those fears. Is it that is it shame from fatness and and diabetes? Is it fear that I will die is it the belief that this is a you know especially with a type two diabetes the fear mongering around it is just Whoa, whoa, whoa, Nelly and for a lot of people is deeply manageable condition. Right and, and the worst thing about it is the stigma and so if you can preemptively unlearn that stuff, not saying that you're gonna get type two diabetes, but you know, that'll be helpful for you and other people around you. So an anti fat belief could be that I will be lazy if I have a fatter body. That's another thing is that people will say I will have let myself go. I would just just have I would have just said fuck it and then I would have become fat. And so with that, exploring something like what's a big book called up book is called laziness does not exist. Laziness does not exist by Devon price. Really good book. Love that book. Probably mentioned it 100 times. Yeah, so learning colonialism. A ableism all of that stuff, capitalism that goes along with laziness, the belief around laziness, okay? So what comes up what comes up what comes up? So not not understanding that you would have those beliefs and what they are, if you know what your anti fat beliefs are chef's kiss, love it. That's like, I like using this analogy. And the analogy is the analogy is we're carrying around suitcases in the suitcases represent our beliefs. And some of our suitcases are jam packed with information and with evidence and with anecdotes and with experiences. And so one of the suitcases says fat is bad. And everyone's fat is bad suitcase is different, the contents are going to be a little different. But a lot of times they're very similar, right? We open the suitcase and we examine what is in there, you were like, Oh, look at this stinky sock, it turns out that this stinky sock needs to go into the gabaars Oh, look at this crusty spunk covered t shirt. Oh, let's burn that one. And those things represent the evidence. And so one of the pieces of evidence being type two diabetes is something that fat people consequence of being fat and fat. And because they are so greedy, they eat so much sugar, or whatever it is that you believe about type two diabetes. And then so you're picking up the crusty sock, giving it a sniff by looking for the evidence and deciding Do you want to put it back in a suitcase? Or do you want to put it in the incinerator. And with that, then you will also be putting stuff into the suitcase that says fat people are just human normal people, you know. And so if we don't even know what is inside the suitcase, or even though the suitcase exists that says fat is bad, you kind of it's a step that that we'd want to take. So opening that suitcase. Love it. Love it. Yeah, so you could have some, you could have some real doozies in there right of other things. And you know, you'll be your experiences to have your mum doing this or you know, your auntie saying that or a teacher doing saying whatever, whatever experiences you've had, and the media that you might have consumed. So moving on to number four, and we're talking about media. So following predominantly normative white people on social media. So I mentioned before your brain is super smart and, and adept at forming biases, right is our brain is doing like making shortcuts, deciding who is in the in group, and who is in the out group. If you follow a ton of white, thin, non disabled, sis hit people on social media, who do you think that your brain is going to teach you is the quote, correct body? If you don't know what sis, het is, it means cisgender that means someone who aligns with the gender with the sex that they were born, their gender and their sex from birth are aligned. Hit means heterosexual someone who is not queer says hit people says what is the shorthand because that's a load of letters, right? So we cannot ignore the power of passively absorbing that information. Right? And a quick test, here's a little quick test, get your phone out. Open, your favorite image based social media is probably going to be Instagram and see the first 10 or 20 posts on your feed. Are they normative bodies? How many of the people are you seeing that are super fat folks? How many are racialized? How many are disabled? How many are trans etc, etc. Right? You might say, Vinny, I've just got dog images. That's cool. Dogs. Like now I have a bias that humans need to have a wet nose. And that very is because I've been watching so many dog videos, dog videos and make you happy, right? But if you're struggling with body image stuff, using social media as a tool is can be helpful. I've been looking at a lot of studies. I do stuff I do stuff as a dei consultant to so I've been looking at studies recently for for a big company on body imaging kids and looking at the research for the last 20 years. And so with social media, it was presumed that social media use the word destroy kids self esteem. And what they found was that image based social media parts are have apps so Facebook, if they're looking at other people's images that could be detrimental to self esteem. However, uploading their own images and interacting with community was supportive to self esteem. I can't remember what they said about I don't think they Oh no they did. They did that and saying that seeing images of people who look like you was also supportive. So you know, a lot of times we talk shit about social media being like, Oh, it's this evil thing, and it's ruining everyone's lives. But it can also be used as a tool to help you. Or it could or it could ruin your life because you spend 55 years on Tik Tok watching stupid fucking videos of slime. Like Muay Thai. Anyway, so see you have a look at the 10 first 1020 posts, what comes up? Is it here's the thing, right? Some people will say, Oh, it's all it's all anti diet people. Okay, what bodies are the anti diet people in? Our they're all thin. They're all white. They're all young. Hmm. Okay. So you kind of like a step there. You know, you're not following diet accounts, and then bodybuilding people or whatever.

But diet people, but you're not getting that extra benefit of following people who are not in normative bodies. And the thing is, this is like stuff that you can do automatically, right? If your brain is doing this soaking up this information automatically. And so if we can have our brain soak up information that supports us and is not steeped in anti fatness, why not do it. And number five, that takes us to watching shows and movies with predominantly normative bodied people. And so similar to social media, TV shows and movies can impact us greatly. And I think potentially even more because they are able to tell expanded stories about what thinness and fatness mean, alongside imagery. It's not representative of the world to have a group of people who are all thin white, sis, etc, as the only characters of a show, right? That's not what the world looks like. And so you've beat you're being fed ideas about who you are, who humans should look like. And again, your brain is smart, and will soak up that information and make meaning from it. And so I'm not saying that you should never watch that trashy dating show again. I know I will be watching trashy dating shows. But be cognizant of the media you're watching and how one it systemically supports anti fatness and to how it teaches you that your body is wrong. Also is going to help you see things easier, which is kind of a curse. Perceive to perceive how things are maybe unequal. And, you know, taking off those rose tinted glasses being like wow, you know, like I've said before, I used to think the show Sex and the City was super diverse because they had a ginger one. They had a brown head one. They had a blonde one. And then they had another blonde one who was slutty. So, I mean, can you get more diverse than that? Like what the fuck? Really? You know? And so unlearning stuff will help you go back help me go back and say, Oh no, and it'd be jarring, right? Like I started watching. What's this new show that's on Netflix is a Spanish show. Deep fake love. This thing is fucked up. This show is fucked. What they do. Every I think every single person on the show is white, and thin or muscular. It's just like the whiteness, the fantasies. There is one queer couple. Anyway, what they do in this show deep fake love is they the couples split up and they both go live in different houses, right? This this five couples so and then they've got singles in the house. Then during the time, you know, do you know deep fake images, deep fake, deep fake, where they get videos of a celebrity and they're able to copy them and make them say anything that they want. Right? So it's a fake. It was a fake image. You know, it's a fake video, but it looks so good that you cannot tell that it's not that person. And so they've got These deep fake videos of their spouses like gobbling off some dude in the other house. And then they're asked, Is this a fake video? Or is this real? And they're all tortured by it is so unethical. Like they are. You can see they're having these visceral reactions, they are experiencing trauma. And even if it turns out that they're not real, they're still having those experiences and their body remembers, right. Oh my god, it's fucked up. I mean, I still have watched like five episodes. But then, you know what I started noticing being like, oh, only thing people are worth longing. Longing over. That's what my brain said. My brain said that and I said, Okay, time to turn this off. Might go back to it. I don't know. It's fucking Oh. It's, it's too rash. But I mean, if that's your thing, clearly, it's my thing. Anyway, so and as well, I think, you know, things like that. I think things like that. I think is Netflix going to be like, Okay, well, it's okay to show people dating shows where it's everyone's white. Everyone's thin. That's what that's what this person wants. And that's what millions of other views around the world, or is this just boring? And really, really, it's, it's really fucking boring. I mean, I can't barely tell. Tell them apart. You know, all the all the there's one. No, there's to this, because I've got singles in there too. So they've got like a cast of maybe 30 people. There's, I think two racialized people. So I mean, diverse. Sarcasm. Yeah, so I think like, isn't it? It's like, okay, well, they're down with whiteness, you know? Is there going to be like a label, the downbeat of fineness? They don't want no diversity, because I'm they're fucking binging the show? I don't know. Who knows, right? Anyway, okay, so number six. Believing that you are free from anti fatness had a interaction today. A diet account shared my a post of mine that says signs that you're struggling with fat phobia. I looked at the account. All of the posts were not all of them. 75% calories in this thing, how to lose fat, or how to best ways to lose weight. And so I commented saying, looks like you're struggling with fatphobia with the posts that you're on your account. And the account owner replied back saying, No, I'm not that people I know. And I was like confuzzled confused the fuddled because I said, Oh, you're not the one posting all of the calories and, and also, you've put hashtags on my post. There's a post that I made, right, it's my content. They put pasture hashtags on the post of Oh, word, this Oh, word epidemic, lose weight, or they stop a chef and I was like, listen, I said, even I struggle with fat phobia. So you probably do too. So. Yeah, so I will never be free from anti fatness. Because you guess what, I have this gorgeous brain. And I'm going to continue to soak up violent anti fat rhetoric from our world, no matter how much I tried to protect myself. And until we live in a fat positive utopia, we're still going to be bombarded with those anti fat messages. And our brains are going to be as smart and as absorbing and curious as as ever. So they're going to pop up, right? You know, like this example of me saying, oh, only only thin people are worthy of being longed over of being of being thought about and, and, and having someone cry from the fear of losing them. You know, passion, that's for thin people. So anti fatness popped up in my brain doesn't make that make me a bad person. Doesn't mean it's my fault. But it's my responsibility to look at that and say, is that true? No. Okay, well, I'm going to do decided to stop watching the show for now. When thinking about this, this is true. Okay, well, I need to get some fat romance into my head. I need to I need to break this down. And luckily, you know, I've got the privilege of doing This job during this job, right? So I'm thinking about these things. But that idea that that's it, I'm done. I've arrived, I'm, I'm never going to have a bias belief again. I mean, no. Unless you die at that moment, you know. So, you know, and as someone unplugged from the matrix you are. And I think that that that curiosity and that realization that you are not a perfect human being, for me, knowing that I'm not perfect. And also, I'm going to try my hardest. And also I'm going to say, Hey, this is, uh, you know, I fucked up here or whatever, I'm going to endeavor to do those things kind of makes me feel more relaxed, right? Because how hard would it be? How impossible would it be? Especially if you're interested in this stuff? And you're and you probably are, if you're listening to the podcast, how hard would it be to be like, Well, I've arrived, I've got perfect body image, and I never ever think anything anti fat.

I mean, that's not It's not realistic. You know, you're not giving yourself any grace, then we all deserve grace. Right? And so that realization of yep, yep, yep, yep, just for the rest of my life. And if I, if I've been exposed to anti fatness, I'm probably going to have more anti fat beliefs. If I'm stressed, I'm probably going to have more anti fat beliefs. If I'm in a new relationship, I might have more anti fat beliefs. If I'm meeting new people, I might have more anti fat beliefs. And it doesn't mean that I'm a bad person, it means that I have a brain. And it's my responsibility to unlearn that bias when I am able to identify it. I mean, like, that's another thing is like, for me, it's helpful to to pinpoint those things that that are triggering for me. And a big big one is is media media is triggering for me. And this is someone who does this work. And so if you are really struggling with body image stuff, and anti fatness stuff, consider you know, giving yourself a lot of support. Because if someone who is doing this as their job can struggle, then I mean, you know, if it's not also your job job, then it probably means that you struggle to and as you got it all worked out. I mean, I don't know. Maybe someone has got this, you know, magic brain out there. I don't know. Imagine, imagine imagine. I've never met them. But they're I've thought about this before. Someone who's like the parents had never said mean things to them as a kid, you know, no one ever bullied them or no one has ever told them that fatness is bad. Wouldn't that be that'd be fun to meet that person that they exist, right? So? Um, no, do they? Okay, well. That's the end of the show. If you enjoyed hanging out with me today and you want more first fatty or if you just want it to continue. So can tenya Then go to Kofi? And can the show notes 175 I'm telling you, like you would know what that means. 175 first fatty.com forward slash 175. Or just go to facebook.com and you'll find the button for the podcast or you mean you listen to the podcast somewhere so you'll find you'll find a link somewhere who knows? If you've ever got episode suggestions or questions for the show, feel free to email me fatty at first fatty.com I've got a really good cup of tea on the go or It's good isn't it nice when you've got a nice cup of tea and it's a perfect temperature let me have a little taste what could be could it could do with being a degree hotter? I've been chatting too much and forgotten about that. Almost perfect cup of tea. I got it in my Yeti Yeti cup that someone gave me. Anyway I'm gonna stop fucking banging on about shit and let you run into the world. Stay fierce, fatty. And I will see you in a while alligator. Have a great day. Thanks for being here.

Episode 174 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

.You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 174, Is The AMA Saying BMI Should Be Scrapped!? I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Hello, welcome to this episode. If you don't know who I am, Vinnie, my pronouns are V them. I'm British living in Vancouver, which is the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish people. Squamish labeled with an Musqueam nations. And I'm an activist, and I'm your host. We'll be talking about stuff Hey, most people have already listened and like yeah, man, we know who you are. So before we get started today, you might have noticed that you had a week between episodes. So for this month, it's going to be two episodes this month. And that is down to Ko Phi, Kofi, Kofi donations. Thank you, everyone who has donated on kofi to make the podcast happen to continue to happen, an update of where we were. So one month ago, we were at 32 subscriptions. And that equals 210 $1 has in income for the month. And today we're at 34. So that's two extra subscribers in the last month. And $240 income subscription found value. So that's an extra $30 a month. So why am I talking about this because I am striving to make the podcast self sufficient instead of me having to pay for it should have done this a long time ago instead of 170 episodes then. But what can you do? So if you'd like more than two, and then next month is going to be one episode a month if you'd like more than one episode a month. We want to get to $680 a month in subscription donations and then we can have four whole episodes a month so we are third of the way there. So if you appreciate the show if you like what I'm doing if you want to spend your money on a on a fatty and fats podcast, then go to Kofi The link is in the show notes but you can just type KOF I Vinnie Vinny Welsby. First fatty I'm sure Google will point you in the right direction. Oh no. Maybe not. Who knows? Okay, so today we are talking about the American is it American Medical Association. I should have looked at the Yeah, a medical American Medical Association. They came out with a press release. Talking about BMI. Talking about BMI being problematic. Oh, am glob oh my god, I love it. This is this is something that's happened. And so a lot of people on on the social media channels were like, oh my god, this is amazing. This is so good. Some people were like this is not good. This is bad. So I want to talk about it today. And tell you what I think and I'm going through the press release release and the related blog article rather the related blog blog article from the AMA, line by line and picking it apart and telling you what's the crackers, crackers, crackers, Irish for story or news or good or many different words anyway. So I got a email from Hannah, who is a health reporter from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette. Hannah and I have been in contact before and Hannah is curious, as feels like curious and interested in in fat liberation. Certainly not someone who is spreading misinformation about fat bodies, which is amazing. Love it. And Hannah emailed me saying hi Vinny hope you're well. I'm wondering if you saw the American Medical Association statement that the BMI is an imperfect metric with a problematic history and should be not used. Sit alone to determine overall health. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this you'd be willing to share with me for a story that I'm writing. I know that the racist history of the BMI has long been known and the anti fat bias advocates have pushed for doctors to adopt a more comprehensive measure. Do you think this statement from the AMA is enough? What was your reaction? Thanks. And please let me know if you have any thoughts to share. By the way, the spreadsheet you sent me is proven very useful. I'm looking into some of these studies for the story now. Oh, yeah, I sent Hannah a spreadsheet with all the science science, guess what, you can have that spreadsheet with all the fat science, if you become a cofee subscription, I can't remember which level it is five or $10 or something. You get also get the fat resource list mega guide blahblah blueprint. Anyway, I responded to Hannah. But before I tell you how I responded, I want to share with you what the AMA is saying. Okay, so AMA, use of BMI alone is an perfect clinical measure June 14 2023. Four minute read by Sarah Berg, Ms senior news writer. So this is on the AMA website. And so they are telling us about a meeting that they had. And what the boffins an old word. Did you say that word? Resale say that word boffin? It's kind of like a word for nerd or word for someone who's smart. Where we kind of dear or derogatory? It's probably it's probably let me google it, man. It's probably like something. There's probably some problematic history. Let me just make sure I'm not saying something really fucking horrible. Oh no, boffin is a person engaged in scientific or technical research. That word was perfect. A person with knowledge or skill considered to be complex, arcane and difficult. Yes. Okay, good. So the boffins the AMA had a meeting. And so let's go through. Okay, I'm gonna link link to the show notes link for the show notes for everything I'm talking about is in phase. Fatty fatty.com, forward slash 174. Or in the show notes. This is episode 174. Okay, so first sentence from this post is body mass index, BMI is easy to measure and inexpensive. Okay, so first, my thoughts on that. So that first sentence, just because it's easy to measure doesn't mean that there isn't a cost. And that cost is to the physical and mental health of the client. And also, just because it's easy to measure doesn't mean that we should be doing it, right. You could say measuring penis sizes is is easy to measure it and an inexpensive and a great way to tell you about someone's health. Well, no, measuring someone's penis size is not going to be something that you could do it easy. It's not gonna tell you much about health and is going to be harmful to clients. Right, you know. Next, the next sentence is it also has standardized cut off points for Oh word and oh word and is strongly correlated with body fat levels as measured by the most accurate methods. Okay, so that was their sentence. We have standardized cutoff points, and is strongly correlated with body fat levels as measured by the most accurate method. So standardized cut offs arbitrarily created with bogus data. Quote, In 1999 1998, the US National Institute of Health brought us definitions in line with the World Health Organization guidelines, the US definitions of BMI, lowering the normal slash O word cut off from 27 point, whatever. 225 This had the effect of redefining approximately 25 million Americans previously healthy two. Oh, word. So they're saying we have standardized cutoff points. So they're standardized cutoff points just because you have cut off points doesn't mean that a good cut off points, right. They cut off points that were arbitrarily created that the number of 25 for a 35 etc. They're those numbers you know why? Because the science because of research because the data know because they're easy to remember. Fucking believable, and they say it is the most accurate method. It might be. It's not even if it was the most accurate method. It is not an accurate method, you know, going back to say, hey, let's measure someone's penis size for health, they can say that's the most accurate method. Isn't measuring penis size, and correlating it to health is the most accurate method we have? Well, it's just it's not a it's not it's not an accurate method. So but they're not wrong because it's the most accurate method according to them. I mean, they are wrong, but Okay, the next sentence they say, but BMI is an imperfect measure, because it does done does not directly assess body fat when the previous sentence I just said, it's strongly correlated with body fat levels, and is the most accurate, but it's imperfect because it does not directly assess body fat. Okay, so that is not why it's an imperfect measure. We do not have the evidence to show that body fat in and of itself is a thing that causes conditions associated with fatness. What we do know is that anti fatness does contribute to those conditions. And so, why would the BMI be imperfect because it doesn't directly assess body fat. Instead, the BMI is imperfect because it tries to assess body fat. So they're saying it's imperfect because it doesn't directly assess body fat but it's imperfect because it tries to assess body fat and it tries to categorize people. And it tries to say this is who is healthy as unhealthy by this arbitrary measure measure. So in the paper weight science by bacon and Afra more, quote, weight cycling resulted in increased inflammation, which in turn is known to increase risk for many fat Associated Diseases. Other potential mechanisms by which weight cycling contributes to morbidity includes hypertension, insulin recession resistance and this lie premia. Research also indicates that weight fluctuation is associated with poor cardiovascular outcomes and increased mortality risk. weight cycling can account for all of the excess mortality associated with fatness in both the Framingham Heart Study and the National Health and Nutrition exam examination study, it may be therefore, that the association between weight and health risk can be better attributed to weight cycling, then add a positive added positive itself fatness itself. So that is the weight science study that was very influential. Bacon an afro more. And so they're saying what I'm saying here, which is that, you know, BMI is not measuring weight stigma. It's not measuring the thing that actually causes harm to fat bodies. And is that actually contributing towards that stigma and shame in its existence, so next line from the paper on paper blog. On top of this, the current BMI classification system is misleading about the effects of body mass or mortality rates. According to an AMA Council on Science and Public Health report presented at the 2023 ama annual meeting in Chicago. Let me tell you that first line again, the current BMI classic classification system is misleading about the effects of body mass on mortality rates. Yes, correct. The BMI is misleading about body mass on mortality rates. This is called the O word paradox. So study Oh word people live longer. link in the show notes. Basically what it showed is that people who are fat live longer than people who are street sized. And it's called the O word paradox because they're like, hang on a minute, we thought that people were dying left, right and center. And it turns out that that's not what the data is showing us. I don't know if that's what the AMA is saying in that line. I don't know if they're alluding to the fact that we can't tell someone's mortality rate from their BMI classification. I'm gonna say they're probably not saying but let's give them the benefit of the doubt. They continue. Numerous comorbidities, lifestyle issues, gender ethnicities, medically significant familial, determined old, determined mortality. effectors duration of time one spends an uncertain BMI category and the expected accumulation of fat with aging are likely to significantly affect interpretation of BMI data, particularly in regard to morbidity and mortality rates. This is a council Council's report. Okay, well, because that sentence becomes after that, the other sentence, I'm going to say that they are saying that because people are complex, the system is the BMI classification system is misleading. They're saying because people are complex, they're not saying the data shows that fat people live longer than, quote, normal weight people. And what is the huge, huge just thing that they are missing with that list of things, and if I buy is basically the list now out the consequences of fat hates. And then also natural reasons, you know, fat people are fat. And saying, there's an issue with that, you know, like, hey, gender, ethnicity, whatever, you know, reasons why someone is who they are. And then consequences of weight bias, fat hate, but they're not naming it. They're not naming the issue, which is fat, hey, what they're doing is saying and not saying the presumption being that fatness causes those things. They're not saying that it's not fatness at court, this causes those things. Okay, continuing on. Further, the use of BMI is problematic when used to diagnose and treat individuals with eating disorders because it does not capture the full range of abnormal eating disorders. So I'm trying to work out what they're saying here. Let me read it again. Let's see if we can try and work out what they say. Further, the use of BMI is problematic when used to diagnose and treat individuals with eating disorders, because it does not capture the full range of abnormal eating disorders. So are they saying that a typical anorexia that diagnosis is fucked up? So atypical anorexia is anorexia and fat people? And it's far from a typical atypical is not not is meaning not typical? Because most people who have anorexia are in smaller bodies, I think it's something like four or 6%. Yes. 6%. So 6% of people who have eating disorders, not just anorexia. 6% of people who have eating disorders are in lower weights. And with anorexia, the majority of people who have anorexia are not lower weight people. Okay. And so are they saying here that if we are using the BMI, we're not going to capture a typical anorexia, and that diagnosis is fucked up? Are they saying that? Or are they saying fat people have eating disorders, and that's why they're fat, and that their eating disorder is binge eating disorder. And that BDD, binge eating disorder means someone eats too much food, which in reality, is a restrictive eating disorder. Are they saying that the BMI does in some way, capture some range of eating disorders? Because it's they saying because it does not capture the full range of abnormal ink disorders? How can the BMI you be used to capture any eating disorder? How, how can you look at someone's body weight and know if they have an eating disorder? How can you say the BMI is going to tell you that a fat person hasn't? Has any eating disorder presumably be Edie because that's all apparently that fat people can have which is not true. And as well, but it is a restrictive eating disorder. So what are they trying to say? Okay, so next for adults, measuring BMI and waist circumference may be better a better way to predict weight related risk. What? What measuring the BMI and waist circumference? According to who is better, according to what? What science waist circumference? What you know that whole thing like carrying fat in your fat in your belly or in your waist is higher risk? It's all bullshit by the way. But for children, there is no good reference data for waist circumference. There is no good reference that f of for adults, which makes get this guy this because we can't do waist circumference on kids. That means BMI for age is the gold standard? Hang on a minute. They have spent the last few last paragraph saying BMI. Here's the limitations. For kids. They're like, we don't know how to measure kids. So let's just stick with the BMI. In fact, it's the gold standard. I mean, make it make sense. Make it make sense. Why is it they're saying it's not great? We got, we're just gonna find it. We're going to use it on kids because we can't think of anything better. How I mean, it's what like, the waist circumference? How waist circumference? How does that measure fat? Because that's what they say. The BMI is not good at measuring fat. How would an waist circumference measure measure fat? My brain is like what a woman. Also, we don't need to be measuring body size at all. gold standard for children. Why? Okay, they continue. There are numerous concerns of the way the BMI has been used to measure body fat and diagnose Oh word. Yet some fish physicians find it to be a helpful measure in certain scenarios. And then, I mean, they don't they go on to saying how the BMI is, is, is harmful. But in that previous sentence, they're saying, but it's not so harmful, that it's not still the gold standard for children. And we use it with adults alongside waist circumference, which again, doesn't measure fat and not what we need to measure fat, you know, we need to be looking at health indicators. And so Okay, so they're saying that some doctors like it. Past said ama Immediate Past President President Jack Resnick, Jr, MD, quote, it is important for physicians to understand the benefits, what benefits and limitations of using BMI and clinical settings to determine the best care for their patients? I would like to know what circumstances it is a helpful measure, like name them out? Or is it just on the doctors whim when they want to stigmatize the patient? Or is there going to be a standard use usage going to be developed, like you're allowed to use the BMI and this time, this time, it's okay to stigmatize the patient and harm the patient. But in this time, it's not like what is the whole thing is flummoxed in me. So that like BMI is problematic and not useful, but still use it and cause problems and harm people. But at your discretion. Okay, continuing the House of Delegates adopted new policy, recognizing the issues when using BMI, as measured as a measurement because one of the historical harm of BMI of the use of too, I'm putting on putting the numbers into of the use of BMI for racist exclusion. Three, BMI cut offs are based primarily on data collected from previous generations of non Hispanic white populations and does not consider a person's gender or ethnicity. In other news, the sky is blue. Next, we tell they'll be telling us that they discovered the earth is in fact round and not flat, or that gravity exists. Yeah, we know, this is old, old news. them saying the historical harm of the BMI, the BMI being racist, also totally cool that they, they thank the fat and black and other racialized and marginalized groups that taught them these facts. And those of them that have been violently harmed and killed by the AMA decisions and policies. It's like it. Who taught you that? You know, who Where did you learn this stuff from? Don't mention don't mention the people you learn it from? Because then that would have to, you'd have to recognize that you were the ones that were causing the harm, and that you have killed the people who are who have graciously shared that information with you. And I'm coming out now in 2023 when we've known this stuff, for so long. For so long, 200 years, the BMI has been about okay, can they continue? In addition, the policy says there are significant limitations associated with the widespread use of BMI in clinical settings and suggests it's used but use B in conjunction with other valid measures of risk such as but not limited to measurements off okay. Are they going to say measurements or have blood pressure, anything that you you know the things that you can test for the real, valid, reliable data to see if we are healthy. What are they going to say we're going to measure we're going to measure visceral fat, body positivity index, body composition, relative fat mass, waist circumference, genetic and metabolic factors. Wah wah wah. So close yet so far, they could have said BMI is not good. And so we, we are instead going to measure blood pressure, blood panels, do tests to see how the body functions. And instead, we're going to do better at measuring how fat someone is. So they're saying the BMI is flawed. Therefore, we need to be better at measuring fat and stigmatizing Fat people not offering them evidence based care but to categorize them as diseased. Okay, they continue on the newly adopted ama policy also states that BMI is significantly correlated with the amount of fat mass in the general population but loses predictability when applied on the individual level. So do you remember Do you remember, way back 200 years ago, when the BMI wasn't called the BMI then it's called the quitter index. Quest let a Dolph Adelphi adult Kwethluk said Listen up here motherfuckers this is not meant to be used to measure individuals this is I'm just looking at these white European men. And yes, I am trying to find the ideal man. The average man Longwear but we can't use it on individuals. Okay. I'd have quite a lot said that. You didn't say listen up here motherfuckers. But a roundabout way said it is not good to use on individuals an AMA 200 years later like ah, Scripture nah, heads. Maybe listen up here. Listen up here to this. Oh, why Oh, idea. We've got a let's maybe not use BMI on individuals. Actually, no, no, no, no, no. We know is not good to use on individuals. But we're still going to use it in individuals. How do you then restart? Well, I'm going to stop using it. We're going to set a user but we're going to use other things too. But you know, it's not really good for individuals with like it. We're going to use it. Yeah, we came up with that. We came up with that. Yeah, totally. It was totally us. Yeah. Okay, the continue relative body shape and composition. Heterogeneous Jeanne at across race and ethnic groups, sexes, genders and age span is essential to consider when applying BMI as a measure of adiposity. The use of BMI should not be used as a sole criterion to deny appropriate insurance reimbursements. Hold on. Now let's read that last sentence. Again, the use of BMI should not be used as a sole criterion to deny appropriate insurance reimbursement. Let me rewrite that sentence for what it should be. The BMI should never be used as any criterion to deny appropriate insurance reimbursement. They're just saying used to be used to BMI Go girl is used to BMI, but then also use something else their waist circumference totally, totally. Yeah. Like, do they understand what they're saying here Do they do by a BMI should not be used as any criteria to deny reimbursement? And as well, they're saying deny appropriate reimbursement, right? They're saying this person should be appropriately reimbursed. But we're going to use this thing that we're saying as problematic as something to deny them, plus another measure who whatever you think is best. Who knows? Measure the peanuts? Who knows? You know, we're just picking up picking out ship from our brains like, you know, okay, continuing the AMA. We're also will support further research on the application of the extended BMI percentiles, and Zed scores. Zed scores is like the average scores, you know, like I say, in a bell curve, percentiles and XenSource and its associated association with other anthropomorphic measurements, risk factors and health outcomes. So further research, in order to explore In other we should research on the application of BMI. Why? Why? Why? Why do we need further research on the BMI? The BMI is bullshit. And they say as well efforts to educate physicians on the issues with the BMI and alternative measures for diagnosing Oh word diagnosing Oh word. Hmm. Sounds like like they are running into the very issue that their panel of experts pointed out to them in 2013. How can you diagnose someone with fatness? When the only shared characteristic of this disease, quote disease is body weight and nothing else? So how can we diagnose someone with a word when there's only one shared characteristic? And every single person who is fat will have different health outcomes? Their own? Experts told them? We cannot say that fatness is a disease because of that. So in 2013 Here's a quote from a piece of literature it's called is a word a disease or a behavior abnormality. Neither did the AMA get it right. Okay, so quote in June 2013, the AMA house of delegates voted to recognize fatness, as a disease state requiring treatment and prevention efforts. A number of other medical societies had sponsored a resolution to support this idea, including the American Association of clinical endocrinologists, The Endocrine Society, the American College of Cardiology, the American College of Surgeons and the American Heart Association. The National Institute of Health had declare fatness, a disease in 1998. And the American fat Oh word society did so in 2008. As a surprise, they did that huh? Because the AMA is sought as the most influential Medical Association in the country. Their statement is expected to have significant influence on healthcare policy, through effects on insurance, industry and lawmakers. The stated purpose for this decision is to improve research into the causes of fatness leading to improvement in methods to prevent and treat it ultimately improving patient health and outcomes. That is not what what the outcome was the outcome was more money to eradicate fatness. This decision would be expected to improve insurance coverage and reimbursements to provide for treating individuals with fatness. In addition, this change in public policy by the AMA supports the concept that fatness is a serious disease that requires treatment and it also removes the stigma currently associated with fatness i It's not just a poor lifestyle choice it does not remove the stigma. The AMA decision is controversial since the amas own Council on Science and Public Health in 2012 said that there was not sufficient data to support calling fatness, a disease and now here we are 10 years later 10 years later, they're still like how can we diagnose someone with fatness? What are the shared characteristics? What are the outcomes of this disease? What is what is which is common amongst all of these fat people? nothing apart from the fact that they're fat ha okay, well Well fuck it. Let's just make it a disease. Hello. Okay condition can can continuing additionally, delegates modified existing policy on the clinical utility of measuring BMI body composition, add a positive d adiposity. And waist circumference to support quote, general emphasis on physicians educational programs on the risk differences within and between demographic groups have varying levels of adiposity BMI, body composition and waist circumference and the importance of monitoring these individuals. Okay, so what they're saying here is between different groups of people, the risks are different. So basically what's going to happen here is that doctors are going to harass racialized people, mainly more and then other marginalized people even more than they normally do. About being fat, which is quote gonna cause even more harm. So the thing is right, stress is bad for our health, what is a big source of stress, living in a society that marginalizes you and excludes you. People who have more marginalized identities, on a population level experience more stress, fat, black people, they are identifying as higher risk. Therefore, they're adding to the stress by saying we need to measure your BMI and your waist circumference and we need to tell you to not be fat, when the causes of the stress is a thing that's happening in that very moment, which is telling the person not to be fat. It is when they walk out of the office and they experienced racism and exclusion and whatever other identities that they have adding on to that. So it is haunting, frightening that they are saying we need to monitor this more in between demographic groups. Okay, continuing, delicate delegates also modified existing policy on eating disorders calling on the AMA to encourage training of all school based physicians, counselors, coaches, trainers, teachers and nurses to recognize abnormal eating behaviors, dieting and weight restrictive behaviors in children and adolescents and to offer education and appropriate referral of adolescents and their families for evidence based and culturally informed interventional counseling, consulting with appropriate culturally informed educational and counseling materials pertaining to abnormal eating behaviors, dieting, and weight restrictive behaviors. So what now? How the fuck can you tell people to lose weight dieting being the biggest risks risk factor for an eating disorder. And then say, we need to be better at recognizing, quote, dieting and weight restrictive behaviors in children and adolescents. You are causing the issue here. And what about adults? Is it okay for fat adults to engage in quote dieting and weight restrictive behaviors? Presumably so. And I bet you what they're talking about in regards to eating disorders here I bet you they're talking about fat kids having an eating disorder and that's what's might cause them to be fat. That is the end of their, their the end of their bullshit. That's the end of their bullshit. So my response to Hannah, which let's think about some other things as well in regards to this. Like I mentioned some people are celebrating this some like you know, people who are aligned with the fat activist community are celebrating this people who are aligned with the fact of his community are deriving this let me read a post from Mikey Mercedes on Instagram. I'm going to need everyone celebrating this to actually read it because the endeavor to measure fatness more precisely is not compatible with ending medical fat phobia. Be fucking for real, finding more measures and criteria through which to continue systematically marginalizing fat people is not a win the AMA using language that indicates the awareness of fatphobia as anti blackness and deciding that the solution is to expand ways of othering fatness is not a win, making measures of fatness that concretize notions of blackness or non whiteness as being genetically or physiologically different from white bodies is not a win. It is race science efforts to educate this as a quote efforts to educate fishers on the issues with a BMI and alternative measures for diagnosing fatness, quote unquote is not a fucking win. Y'all got me heated right now with this bullshit, quote, fat activist and advocate Stop begging for scraps and the expansion of the fatphobia industrial complex and quote challenge for 2023 Please and then in the caption y'all know I don't even posts like that anymore. But the reactions to this statement from the AMA has me heated the BMI is not bad because it doesn't measure fatness quote good enough or because it didn't include non white people in its development. BMI is bad because it is part of the scientific quest to distinguish non whiteness as inferior and because it is used to ration care. This pivot is not about supporting fat people All providing them the care they deserve. It is very clearly about the expansion of systems, practices and tools to correct categorize, surveil and distinguish fatness as a natural and needing intervention. And it pairs perfectly with the push for weight loss medications and increased targeting of fat kids that has been going on for a hot minute now. This is not good.

So, yeah, absolutely. Mikey saying it much more eloquently than I can. It's race science. It's race science. Yeah. So this is what I said to Hannah. We need to look at the AMA's motivation for this and why now remember, in our last emails, so I was emailing Hannah about I was emailing Hannah about or Hannah emailed me and I responded about pseudo fat activists. They're not real fat activists. They are people who are Oh, word, eradicate us and so astroturf corporations, companies, organizations created by weight loss companies to advocate for the advocate for fatness to be a disease. And so that was what Hannah's article was about. And what I was saying was like, It's bullshit, and they're saying that fatness needs to be eradicated. fatness needs to be classed as a disease so that they can make tons of money from trying to cure the disease. Whereas fat activists real fat activists are saying that we need to end fat stigma because there's nothing wrong with being fat. They say we need to end fat stigma or they don't call it fat stigma. They call it weight stigma. Because it's not the fault fat people are greedy and disgusting. They have a disease. And there's nothing wrong with like, there's nothing wrong with having a disease. But the categorization of of fatness as a disease is harmful in this context. And there's many times that things have been categorized as a disease in history. And it's just been used as a way to try and eradicate that population. Think about queer people. Okay, so we need to look into AMA's motivation for this. Remember the emails remember, remember in our last emails we were talking about the medicalization of fatness the medical medicalization of fatness is that you know making fatness a disease and how purveyors of quote solutions to cure fatness are behind a lot of the push to say that fatness is a disease. The AMA has long gone against via advice from experts and long established available science to declare fatness as an issue. And this sucks sudden milquetoast recognition that BMI isn't the best smells fishy? A quote from Regan Chasteen when I say the AMA is in bed with the weight loss industry that's not just a feeling I have a quick look at the 2022 annual report for the AMA foundation finds that Eli Lilly, who's we go V competitor drug turns turns a peptide is expected to get FDA approval as a weight loss drug this year and has been forecasted by Wall Street analysis to be the most profitable drug of all time, gave donations between 500,999 500,000 A million are all friends at Novo Nordisk moving orders made we go V came in between 102 150,000 and Merck which just announced that they are developing a drug to compete with Wigo V and ptosis. And you need to learn how to say this drug because I'm going to use it probably saying it for a lot of times to Zoo Tez Terzi potatoes it Pattaya Tez, Tassie apartheid, we go into the apartheid also shelled out between 500 and 1,500,000 and million dollars. I continue, how could the weight loss industry benefit from a move away from BMI? Well, if we get rid of categories, and they can get their drugs prescribed to more people, which makes me think this is a catalyst of the amas. This is a catalyst of the AMA statement that they're clearly not being informed by fat liberationists in this decision, because one they vaguely mentioned the BMI is called cause historic harm but failed to recognize any of the work that fat activists have done for decades, talking about this very thing and what that harm has done to populations and individuals. They have not apologized for the harm that they have caused. They never mentioned the problematic history of the beat of the BMI in literally killing Fat people. They say that they're using the bite being BMI for kids, it's still gold standard. They don't want to do away with measuring fatness as a disease state, they just want to do it more effectively so that they can continue to try to erase fat bodies in a more efficient man and man manner. Although they are not successful at this, even though they recognize the BMI is not good at measuring individual health, they still want to use it plus other non evidence based ways of measuring health. Quote, The AMA suggests that it is that it BMI be used in conjunction with other valid measures of risk, such as but not limited to measurements of visual fat body adiposity index body composition, relative map fat mass waist circumference. One thing you mentioned, quote, anti fat bias advocates have pushed for doctors to adopt a more comprehensive measure. This isn't not actually accurate, fat liberationists don't want bodies to be measured in a medical setting at all. There is no quote comprehensive measure of fatness as a disease because fatness is a normal way to have a body. We want health to be looked at with actual health markers. We want the correlations between fatness and health conditions to be clearly seen as a mark of weight stigma. And not that adipose tissue is the cause because it hasn't established to be so we want fat people to be treated as humans are not pathologized just for existing. We want evidence based care, which includes the ending of violent anti fatness. So in conclusion, it's mildly satisfying that the AMA is finally very tardily recognizing what fat liberationists and scientists have known for decades. But their motivations scare me. And I worry that instead of hearing, quote, The BMI isn't great. Let's stop harming fat folks, people here, quote, let's spend more money on research to pathologize and erase fat people more effectively. I am really concerned about the power and money the weight loss industry has and the influence they are wielding at policy levels. It strikes me that the AMA are using in some ways, vaguely liberatory language as a cloak Nundah that cloak is a shit ton of bias and stacks of cash and lobbying from pharmaceutical companies. And because consumers the public are getting smarter, they're not as easily duped. When it comes to the idea of fat people being degenerate pieces of shit. The general public are more apt to hear fat people are degenerate pieces of shit, but it's not their fault. That end of a sentence but it's not their fault. That's the cloak of nicety of we're forward thinking when they aren't. They're talking about these not even talking about them. They drop in a couple of words here in their racist history. Not good at measuring measuring individual health. You know, the couple of things here and there. Crumbs exactly what Mikey said crumbs, morsels, tiny little things to say, Oh, we can let our guard down. We can garden. Okay, well, the AMA gets it now. And I think that's the thing is why Mikey was so frustrated is that we see this little thing, okay, and we're, we're, we're rightly so we see that cloak of cloak of language that we understand, right? Those words those, you know, they ring out, you know, and we say, Oh, they get it, okay, they get the AMA get set. BMI is bad. Holy shit. We've been saying this for decades. Wow, they get it they get it like so the headline is BMI is bad. It's problematic. It causes harm. Right? We could take those those those few sentences from the whole thing. That's why I want you to read the whole frickin thing out go line by line and say, what are they actually saying? And what they're actually saying is we intend to be better at causing harm. Write that down is a good one. We intend to do better at causing harm. That's why these frickin anti Oh word charities and organizations that say they're on the side of fat people are so harmful because they are giving language to the oppressor so that we agree with the continued oppression of those marginalized people. Because they said a few buzzwords are given us a little bit a little crumb. And then we're like, Okay, well, that sounds okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But really, when you crack it open just a little bit, just even. I mean, within the first sentence, I was like, No. And near this is not sound sound good. And within the first sentence, the truth, the truth, the truth will out. My comment on Mikey's post is that report literally says, We got to be better at classifying people as fat so we can continue to erase them. So let's try all these other stigmatizing methods as well as a BMI in order to kill more fat people. Yeah, so so this is not a weird this is actually I think, actually quite scary and harmful. But like I said, mildly satisfying, right? These big organizations, it's like they're forced to, right, they're forced to get with the times, but they don't want to let go of the money. You know. So hey, I read a really good book that I really liked. My therapist told me about it. It's got nothing to do with any of this. It's called worry free money. By Shannon Lee Simmons, I got it from Amazon. I bought it from Amazon, or like a second secondhand use book. I paid I don't know, like 20 bucks for it. And then on the front, there's a sticker that says 15 bucks. And on the back, there's a sticker that says 599 from Valley village. And so I'm like rats. Okay, I paid the big bucks for it anyway. It's really good. So I've had a long history of shame around money, obviously bring being poor and being homeless at 17 is gonna do that for y'all. Right? And, you know, my therapist was talking about how families especially poor families, we don't don't talk about money and managing money and like, I'm gonna say, managing money I'm not talking about you know, you've got millions and where to put it into what stocks it's basically like, how to you get your paycheck and how much percentage needs to go where and giving yourself your monthly spending money and you can spend that however the fuck you want. You know, it's not like budgeting, like, oh, we need to spend less on Starbucks. It's like you decide what you'd like to spend money on. If it's Starbucks, if it's eating out, if it's buying, crocheting supplies, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. You've got a monthly budget to spend on whatever the fuck you want. And so you can just not be stressed about like, I feel guilty buying a Starbucks, you can be like, well, you know, I've got X amount of money for the rest of month. And so this is what I'm going to buy. I've paid my bills, I put some into savings. I've you know, these are the fixed expenses and and actually, it's helped me cut down on a couple of expenses, I realized that I was paying too much for this one system. I was paying like double the capacity I needed and so that was able to save me 100 bucks. And other other few things. I was like, oh shit, so I've got extra spending money. So yeah, it was called worry free money. The guilt free approach to managing your money. And your life. Shannon Lee Simmons. Now they need does it have fat phobia in the book? No. It doesn't. Why do you wouldn't Why would a financial book have fat phobia? Because every fucking book does. So where they use AI so where the last book I think I read it was finance book I think it's called rocket fuel. It was about like managing your business money. And I'm pretty sure that there was like a they use weight loss as as an example right? In here someone says that they value buying organic foods that's important for them. That's the only mention of food is someone's some one of our clients says, I like buying organic food and that was it and so certified, bullshit free. No. fatphobia one mention of organic food but no judgments is just someone likes eating that. And she's Canadian. It's really simple. And I like it. If you get it and you like reading it, let me know um, I'm not like, Shannon hasn't sponsored the show. I mean, that'd be good, wouldn't it? It was just really good. I really, really liked it. And it makes me it makes me feel a lot less guilty about spending money and knowing what to do with my money. The money that I do have. Okay, well, thanks for hanging out me too. I guess I'll see you in I think two weeks or something. Who knows? One week, I mean, not one week, two weeks or a month. Unless we get some donations on cofee. Send your donations, get more podcasts, or don't send donations and don't get podcast. You might be saved Vinnie. We don't want no more podcasts. And that's cool. Just don't send the money. And you won't. You will also get one podcast. Yes, they'll get one podcast. Well, thanks for hanging out with me. I hope you have an amazing day. Thanks for being here. fatties and fat allies. I think you're great. Thanks for chilling out what my and I'll see you on the next episode of The phys ed podcast. tatty bye. See it in a while. Crocodile alligator.

Episode 173 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast Episode 173, The Psychology of Hunger. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Welcome to this episode. And just to let you know where I am, in case you don't know I'm in Vancouver, which is on the stolen occupied traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples, Squamish, slaver tooth, and Musqueam nations. Today, we have a replay episode for you, this episode came out a couple of years ago, and looking at the most popular episodes, this was, this is one of the most popular of 2021. So in case you missed, it has a replay for you. And even if you did listen to it, there's probably lots of things that you forgot. Even me, I'm the one who's creating the content. And I have things that I forget that I'm talking about. And this one is really, really interesting, really interesting about the different studies and basically, the same. The kind of a thing that I'm taking away from this is that calories to a point where we are starving, which is actually a lot more calories than we probably think, is really not great for us. And we've known this for decades and decades and decades, like the three main studies that were more studies and stories that we're looking at today are from 1944 to 45. So yeah, it's pretty bananas that we're still like eat less food and will become thin. That's definitely going to work and definitely not going to harm us. Anyway, and there's pretty some Pretty extraordinary stuff. That happens. That's going to be in this episode. So let's leave it to Vinny of the past to tell you all about it. Okay, so today's episode, I want to give a massive trigger warning, because we are getting into it today. And it's this is kind of a heavy episode. So if you're not in a heavy episode kind of mood, then leave this for another time. But if you aren't, then let me tell you that well, let me tell you what we're gonna be talking about. So I'm going to be mentioning calories. Kind of like how many calories induces hunger, right? Types of food that people were eating in an experiments, talking about starvation, eating disorders, self harm, murder, the Holocaust, and death and autopsies. So although I mentioned all of those things, they are brief mentions, I don't go into, into details. It's not graphic or explicit, but they are mentions of all of those things. And so that is a, you know, check, check your mental health, see how you feeling if they say they feel good or not. And I'll tell you when we're getting into the kind of Holocaust murder stuff, because that might be maybe the heaviest stuff and the starvation, death, autopsies, that type of stuff. I'll tell you when we're getting into that stuff before. And so what I'm going to do is I'm talking about three different things I'm talking about. First, the Minnesota starvation experiment. Then I'm talking about the Chava or Warsaw Ghetto hunger study. So that was during World War Two. So that's Holocaust stuff. And then talking briefly about the children of hunger Vinter. And that's not as I'm just kind of that's kind of like a briefing. So it's just how the effects of starvation on pregnant people and their offspring. So that's the flow of the of the flow of today's episode. I started writing this episode yesterday, and I was like, oh, you know, I'm gonna bust this out. hour or 212 pages of notes later. Like, oh my gosh, because, you know, the Minnesota starvation experiment, you've probably heard of that one before if you were in the anti diet world. And looking into that, because I thought I'll just talk about that, because I've never spoken about that and the psychology of hunger. And then and then I discovered the, the Chava, the Warsaw Ghetto hunger study, and the the other one as well when I was like, Oh, shit, like, we need to highlight the this information as well. So who knows how long this episode is gonna be? Well, you know, because you've already seen, you can see the you can see into the future and see how long the episode is. I don't know. I can't see into the future quite yet. I'm just checking on my recordings. Are they still going? Oh, so Christmas miracle, they're still going. Oh, okay, so I, there's a bajillion different links here, in this episode. And so to go to the show notes, to find the links of all of the my sources, go to first party.com forward slash 094, because we're episode 94. If you ever forget the link, then you can just go to face it forward slash podcast, and you'll find the most recent episode right at the top. So there's a lot of links in here. Okay, let's start with the Minnesota starvation experiment. I'm gonna go into a lot more detail. Maybe then you've heard before, maybe you don't even know what the Minnesota starvation experiment this experiment is. And so let's talk about it. And the reason why I've called this episode, the psychology of hunger is one of the articles I read by Dr. David Baker and Natasha, Kara Midas was titled that and I was like, Yeah, that's really. Yes. I like that. So, yeah, I thought that was a good, I thought it was a good interesting kind of flip alum flinging rhubarb. You know, I'm saying title. Anyway, okay. So Minnesota starvation experiment was started in 1944. In November, that was when World War Two was still ongoing, but coming to an end, at the University of Minnesota football stadium. So, during that time, starvation was rife due to World War Two. And so they wanted to know how to help folks recover from starvation. So, quote, it was recognized early in 1944, that millions of people were in grave danger of mass famine as a result of the conflict. And information was needed regarding the effects of semi starvation, and the impact of various renewable rehab rehabilitation strategies. If post war relief efforts were to be effective, so at this time, do you know what or not it is so heartbreaking? A lot of people because they didn't have information on starvation and how to treat it? Well, they didn't have this is kind of like a brand groundbreaking study. And so a lot of the allied forces when they went in and found people who were starving, they would give them condensed milk, because I thought, oh, it's really it's got a lot of sugar and, and fat in there. And so this is going to be great. And actually, depending on the level of starvation, folks, their bodies couldn't handle it, and it would cause a lot of people to die. And I'm just like, oh, shit, that's so heartbreaking. And this study showed that they needed a slow refeeding to get their body used to eating again. And that was the safest way. So Ancel Keys, PhD, was the Physiol physiologist in charge of the experiments. And so Ancel Keys did general supervision of the activities in the lab, and it was called the laboratory of physiological hygiene. Such a funny like old word, isn't it hygiene. So, starting in 1941, quote, he served as a special assistant to the US Secretary of War and worked with the army to develop rations for troops in combat the K rations and so they made rations for for people who the troops and he was applauded for that but there's a lot of scandal around Ancel Keys Ancel Keys in 19, seven To do promoted the Adelphi quit let's body mass index, BMI, the BMI scale as the best way to measure health. And so, and there was other scandals about around Ancel Keys.

And yeah, so he pushed the BMI. And then it was popularized by the National Institute of Health in 1985. So he's a motherfucker to blame a Dolphy who created the BMI scale? 200 years ago said, listen up here. Motherfuckers don't you'll be using this to measure health or measure people as an individual level. This is a population stats thing. Okay, you hear me? And then Ancel Keys in 1972 was like pitch. I don't care what you said about it. Um, I think it's a great way to measure people and their health about you know, their fitness levels, like Ancel Keys, I bet was like a raging fat phobe, like guaranteed guarantee, like reading some of it as collect quotes for him. I'm like, Oh, my God. He sounds like a real fucking snooze fest. And I bet you were like, Oh, the people who participated in this study were like, dream about this motherfucker, because he staffed them. Anyway, Ancel Keys got approval from the War Department to get participants from the CPS and so the CPS was a civilian public service. And it was a program that the US government provided for conscientious objectors. So conscientious, conscientious objectors are people who were like, No, I don't want to go I don't I don't agree with the politics of killing people, or the politics of war or whatever. My conscience doesn't allow me to participate. And I would probably be a conscientious objector. I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't have enlightened 45. You know, if I was a bad anyway, I probably would have because of the pressure and the shame, of being a conscientious. That's that word is hard. Come see anxious, calm, see anxious objector. Like I bet you they got so much shit from people. Anyway. So these conscientious objectors were still there were a lot of them were very, very eager to help in any way they could, which which was not killing people. And so they had this alternate alternative to military service, called the CPS. And so they sent out a brochure to the CPS folks, which is the conscientious objectors, and 400 people applied, and 100 people were tested to see if they would be a potential good fit for this. And so 36, white men aged between 22 and 33, were selected. And these people were like, can't these people who applied there well, they were known as being really eager to help and a lot of people would call them human human guinea pigs. And a lot of them would undergo any scientific experiment, because they want it to help the war effort. And so the people who were picked the 36, white men who were picked were assessed to make sure that they were physically and psychologically well, and they had to be able to get on with others and be really resilient to. And so theoretically, these were kind of people who were stable and strong and fit and healthy with good personalities who got on with other people. So the labs chief psychologist was called Joseph brozik, PhD, and he was responsible for gathering all the psychological data on the effects of star vacations. And Ancel Keys kind of ran the round the show and then there was lots of other people who you know, kind of run the kitchen and supervise what people were allowed to eat and yeah, all sorts of different tests they were this study was known to have so many different tests and it really good data because they were very clear on the information that was being obtained. Okay, so for this study called for the men to lose 25% of their normal body weight and the people who were selected kind of like had a variety of of body weights, not all of them were, quote unquote, like average normal weight, be quote unquote Standard. So the first stage of this 12 month, there's 12 Month 12 month experiment was the control period. And so that last of the control period lasted three months and the men ate. I'm going to mention calories here. So skip ahead 10 seconds if you want to hear calories. So the men ate 3200 calories a day. The idea was to get them as close to the, quote, ideal weight as possible. So, so the 3200 calories wasn't like, seen as a lot of calories, it was kind of like, let's see if we can get them as close to the ideal weight. And so if people were fatter, or thinner, they're like, Okay, well, according to the BMI, they should be X amount, so let's get them to that. And so even then, they recognized and, and it was all on on the metabolism, even then they recognize that people were just naturally bigger because of their metabolism, which is bonobos, that was in 1944. You know, they're showing this stuff, then, like, what, so they recognize that, you know, men had these men have different metabolisms. And so they adjusted the amount of calories for each one. And so again, mention of calories, skip forward five seconds, overall, the 3200 calories, made the men slightly below their, quote, ideal weights. And during this period, they will monitor to see how they were doing. And so just that, you know, like they were already beginning to suffer from in the control stage. And so then, so that was three months control stage, monitor them. And they were doing so they were free to go about their daily lives, but they had things that they had to do. And so they had to do 15 hours of work per week in the lab. It's not known if if I didn't know if that was strenuous activity or not, presumably, in the lab, it's probably data entry and shit like that. And they had to walk 22 miles per week. And so that was 35 kilometers. And they had to do educational activities for 25 hours a week. And so that's what they were doing outside of having their food monitored. So then they did six months of the semi starvation, or starvation. And that was, I'm going to say calories, skip forward five seconds, and that was 1570 calories a day. So So almost 1600 calories a day, were given divided between breakfast and lunch. And the foods they were given during this time were common foods because I wanted to give them food that people in Europe were eating so and had access to and so the foods they were eating were potatoes rutabagas, which is a root vegetable, turnips, bread and a macaroni cabbage with token amounts, in quotes. I don't know what token amounts, a little bit of meat and dairy products. So that was the same amount of calories. That diets that are not extreme diets are recommending. Okay, just keep that in mind. So there was this photo that I saw of the of the men you can go and look up photos online. And I saw themselves as photo this really thin man licking his plate at the dinner table, which was apparently common alongside other behaviors and so, quote, they diluted potatoes with water held bites in their mouth for a long time without swallowing, or labored over combining the food on their plate, making weird and seemingly distasteful concoctions. So they were basically playing with their food, becoming fixated on their food, drawing out the experience of being able to eat. Continuing quote, standing in line at the diet kitchen before being served was a source of explosive conduct conduct. At the table they often turned on one another annoyed by each other's voices and then increasingly strange eating habits that many men developed. They would cuddle the food like a baby or handle it and and look at it. Look at look over it. As they would some gold they played with it like kids making mud pies that you know, the explosive conduct and so they were probably really fucking annoyed and irritated and unable to

handle things, you know, handle the line handle other people being weird with food and then like probably, you know, treasuring the food too. And so Jenny Craig, for example, prescribes meal plans, I'm going to mention calories, get 45 seconds meal plans as low as 1200 calories. And so this is what it you know, six months and this is you know, during the six months, it doesn't necessarily mean the six months is doing to these men. I'm not even mentioned all the other consequences yet, but what will the fuck would 1200 calories do and you are trying to go about your life and do shit, right? You're not in an experiment where you can only work 15 hours a week, you know? So, quote, food became the sole source of fascination and motivation. Many men became obsessively collecting recipes, stayed up and stayed up until 5am Last night studying cookbooks, right one, they found themselves distracted by constant daydreams of food, some sublimated their cravings by purchasing or stealing food. One man began stealing cups from coffee shops that guzzled water seeking fullness, does that sound familiar? Some took up smoking to stave off hunger and others chewed up to 30 packs of gum a day until the Liberty laboratory banned it. Meanwhile, all other elements of life seem to fade into mere background noise. Over and over again, the researchers reported indifference and boredom when it came to personal development, and basic socializing. Budding romances collapsed and sexual desire evaporated, and parties or subjects found conversation both difficult and pointless. They all preferred a solitary trip to the movies, adding that while they could recognize comedy, they never felt compelled to laugh any more. In a store when shopping, they were easily pushed around by the crowd. The research team reported their usual reaction was resignation. Sometimes this permeating dullness gave away to moments of inexplicable euphoria, followed by an emotional crash. One subject was eventually eliminated from the project for sneaking unauthorized food in town. After doing so he found himself so quote high that he stopped at 17 Soda shops on the walk home. He cared when he kidded with a fountain girls thought the lights more beautiful than ever felt that the world was a very happy place. The researchers reported this degenerated into a period of extreme pessimism and remorse. He felt he had nothing to live for and he had failed miserably to keep his commitment of staying on reduced rations. So from the the men then moved into the restricted rehabilitation period of three months. So for three months they were eating skip forward five seconds calorie mention 2000 to 3200 calories a day. So this was restricted, restricted. The participants quote, the participants were divided into four groups of eight men each group received a strictly controlled rehabilitation diet consists consisting of one off of one of four different caloric energy levels. In each energy level group, the men were further subdivided into subgroups receiving differing regimens of protein and vitamin supplements. In this manner, the clinical staff examined various energy, protein and vitamins strategies for re nourishing the subjects from the conditions of famine. Let me just repeat that the conditions of famine, so the same amount of calories that common diets and not extreme diets, these are the healthy diets, the diets that are what what is what is it that the diet people say, sustainable diets and they're saying that is conditions of famine, and those consequences that the participants are facing in regards to their emotions? We've not even spoken about the physical consequences so So, in this age, they were really surprised to find that even though they were now allowed food, more food, their mental health continue to decline. And so they weren't allowed food, more food, and their mental health continued to decline. And so they had eight weeks of that kind of restricted rehabilitation. And then they went into eight weeks of unrestricted rehabilitation. And so there they were no limits on how many calories or what foods but everything was monitored and noted. And so whatever they ate, they it was noted down. And so sound familiar? Oh, how many diets tell you that you have to, you know, write down what you're eating. Okay. So this whole time again, sight, it's tight, scientists were like we're marching how they were doing their mental health or physical health. And so before the experiments, an amount of weight loss was predicted, and so they guessed that the men would lose a lot of weight. And then they would plateau and like, so in 1944, they knew that reducing someone's calories would lead to weight loss, and then a plateau yet, and selkies was still saying that people needed to not be fat. And I quote, based on the concept that the rate of weight loss would progressively decrease and reach a relative plateau at the final weight, so yeah, so even in 40s, we knew that weight loss was starvation. And it would plateau. They predicted it before they even study even even went ahead, and that's what happened right. So the results, the results, the results, there were significant increases in depression. They use the word hysteria and hypo con dri Yes Sis so which is being a hypochondriac. I'd say that in quotes, like, as many as many as you using they so they had a Minnesota multi, multifaceted Personality Inventory. So they've got this sort of testing that they would do. Most of the subjects experience periods of severe emotional distress and depression, as well as significant decreases in their strength and stamina, stamina, body temperature, heart rate, sex drive, and they had a gone to parents, quote, this. psychological effects were significant as well. Hunger made the men obsessed with food, they would dream and fantasize about food, read and talk about food and savor the two meals a day they were given. They reported fatigue, irritability, depression and apathy. Interestingly, the men also reported a decrease in mental ability. So they should sign so they showed showed signs of social withdrawal and isolation, a decline in concentration, comprehension, and judgment capabilities, as we know, when you restrict your food, even and so this this is showing, even so if these men had restricted food, and they were then allowed to have unrestricted food, more food to begin with, and then unrestricted, and they were still fixated on food. So continuing quote, some of the subjects expected x exhibited edema. So edema is bruising in their extremities, presumably due to decreased levels of plasma proteins, proteins, given that the body's ability to construct key proteins like album is based on available available energy sources. And again, this is not even some very low calorie diet. This is what a lot of people would say was is very safe and reasonable and good and fat people should be doing this. So the rehab phase, which is the you know, eating was said to be the most difficult phase and one man, Sam leg, chopped off three of his fingers with an axe, and he said he didn't know if he did it deliberately or not. So quote, I admit to being crazy mixed up at the time. Let A leg later explained, I am not ready to say I did it on purpose, I am not ready to say I didn't. And quote, deprivation itself drove these men to quote, the threshold of insanity.

Unknown Speaker 30:17

The metabolic rate was also changed. Like I need to add another thing on to that

Vinny Welsby 30:26

metabolic rate was changed. Obviously, not everyone completed the study, one man didn't lose enough weight for his data to be considered. So in that control, period, and three, were found eating extra food. And imagine, imagine if you were one of those four men, and you're you one couldn't lose enough weight in the control period. Because, you know, your body was like, I'm Excuse me. I like being I like being chubby offer, like what are you doing? And that, the shame of that. And then if you're one of the other ones who were kicked out the, the imagine that drive to eat food, and already maybe feeling guilt for being a conscientious objector. And then the amount of shame that they might have felt that they couldn't even participate in this simple study of not eating. I feel terrible for them. Like, I wonder how that affected them. Like, can you imagine? And thinking, oh, there must be something wrong with me. Like, you know, why can't I just stick to this diet? And, and I see it as these four people, their bodies were just Rockstar bodies, their bodies were like, I ain't falling for this tom foolery. No, you're gonna eat. So I see their bodies is doing exactly what they were meant to do. Right. And so they were amazing, incredible bodies. And those men should not feel any should not have felt any shame or sadness, or guilt or anything, any of that stuff, because not so and even after the study ended, there were reports of men still being incredibly fixated on food, obviously. And one man even had to go to hospital for seven days after having his stomach pumped. Because he just couldn't get enough food like that. That hunger, that hunger of not the physical hunger. But that deprivation, hunger, I think you know what I mean, of when we're dieting, that that it's like, it's like an itch that can't be scratched. And it's just deprivation. So much so that this guy was in hospital for seven days, I can imagine what he was feeling. Going into that. And then imagine the type of shame he was feeling that he had to have his stomach pumped and being ASBO. Others said they ate constantly. And surprise, fucking surprise. After the study, the men ended up wearing more than what they started, they started at the beginning of the experiment, which mimics many of the similar experience experiments like this, from 1907 until 2009. Teen. So study other studies that are like this, they are monitoring people who have lost weight due to illness or people in the armed forces who have lost weight because they didn't have access to food. And so they're studying people who it wouldn't be ethical to do this starving participants, you know, it wouldn't be ethical. And so when people are in those situations, they will use that data. And guess what the people who have experienced these events have weight loss, they will end up being heavier after they recover. Which is again like so from 1907 This was established that not eating enough food is going to make you fatter and as well, like the studies show that people who regain weight or regain regaining more fat, more adipose tissue, which, you know, is not a bad thing, but they're they're showing like, Oh, it's a bad thing because it's not like they they're gaining muscle or whatever. But you know, it's not a bad thing, but they were saying or it's a bad thing. So this study was really famous and it got got loads of attention at the time and quote on July 30 1945, a photo published in Life Magazine showed the shirt was bony. participants. So there's there's you can go and find lots of different photos. And so in May 1945, the war was over and they were only halfway through the starvation portion. And so they were the experiment experiment hadn't hadn't concluded because there was they were looking to see how to refeed. And so, the experiment continued until December 1945. And before it was over to help with the post war, starving folks, they made a pamphlet and leaflets, and like a 70 page thing to give out to aid workers to help people who were seeing the effects of starvation, which was just slowly feed them. And then in 1950, so five years later, after the end of the experiment, they published their findings in this really big book, entitled the biology of human starvation. quotes here, one of the crucial observations of the Minnesota starvation experiment discussed by a number of researchers in the Nutritional Science in Nutritional Sciences, including Ancel Keys is that the physical effects of the induced semi starvation during the study closely approximate the conditions experienced by people with a range of eating disorders such as anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa. As a result of the study, it has been postulated that many of the profound social and psychological effects of these disorders may result from under nutrition and recovery depends on physical renourishment as well as psychological treatment. Yeah, so yeah, it's a really good point, like, you know, you would think like bulimia. It's sitting there saying Bulimia is closely approximating the conditions experienced by these men in the study. And I mean, they don't go as far as to make the connection of dieting. And as well, when we think about our anorexia, we always think about thin people, but it's more common actually, a typical quote, a typical anorexia shouldn't be just anorexia is, is more common in fat people. And so, if we think about this, let me repeat this. The physical effects of the induced semi starvation during the study cloaks closely approximate the conditions experienced by people with a range of eating disorders, such as let me just put this in myself fat people with anorexia. As a result of the study, it has been postulated that many of the profound social and psychological effects of these disorders may result from undernutrition and recovery depends on physical renourishment as well as psychological treatment. And so just to recognize that there are so many fat people with anorexia, and even it doesn't, you don't need to have a diagnosed eating disorder to be experiencing these things. Because again, it is an amount of calories that a lot of people would say, Oh, that's very reasonable. Yeah, that's not too bad. Yeah, that's fine. That's good. That's safe. That's the word that I was trying to think of Safe, safe way to lose weight. Really? Is there a safe way? Okay, so, here final quote from this study. About yesterday, we were starving under the best product possible medical conditions. And most of most of all, we knew the exact day on which our torture was going to end said leg. So Sam leg the person who chopped his fingers off. well aware that millions had no such comfort. But his body didn't know that and are hardwired survival instincts don't know the difference between a 30 day cleanse and a famine either the binges or fixation that enduring hold or food anxiety. All these symptoms ring true to anyone who's experienced food restriction, voluntarily or not. Perhaps the most chilling correlation, the postponement of living. How often do we put off something until we've lost the weight? That familiar inertia is obvious, but what this study indicates is that it might not simply be our desire to wait for a thinner body to start dating, take that trip or pursue a career goal. It may be also the hunger itself. of keeping us at home alone and waiting. So that that quote and the quotes, which is the less like technical stuff is from Kelsey Miller, who wrote a piece for refinery 29 Is it 29? Fire 2020. About that. So, obviously, Kelsey is a great writer, and then a lot of the other stuff is kind of just dry text.

So, and another thing to consider is that these men, presumably, we're not deeply fat phobic in relation to their own bodies. And so presumably, they weren't motivated by that shame of living in a fat body. And so, they struggled with all of those things, and, you know, eating and being eating more than their body wanted, and, and being fixated on food and feeling all of these really distressing things. And they didn't also have that other components of internalized fat phobia. And these were white men, right. And so they also weren't experiencing all of the different stigmas that different marginalized identities have, and what effects that has on people's health. You know, so it, and they were working 15 hours a week. Most people who are dieting are trying to just get on with their life. And you know, people will have jobs, full time jobs, or part time jobs or going to school or, or imagine, imagine if they were having to do like university exams, or imagine if they were having to make projects for their work. Or imagine if they were trying to start a relationship or, you know, anything. Lena said in there, that, Oh, my budding romance has died off. Because the only thing that mattered was food and being fixated on it. And that doesn't go away when you stop dieting, and it doesn't go away in a certain amount of time, because we're still in our minds, putting restrictions on ourselves. Even if we are so far away from the last diet, whether we ever did years and years and years away, we still have these restrictions that we're putting on ourselves mentally, we're like, we might not be physically restricting. But we're mentally restricting and saying, like, Oh, I'm such a bad person, because I ate that thing. And I really should exercise that thing off, and I really Lella only these these, you know, narratives that we have going on in our mind. So it's like we're in that experiment for potentially years and years and years. That is, that is a lot, right, isn't it? It's a lot. It's a lot. And this was just six months of them in that, that semi starvation phase? And the whole experiment being 12 months. And so six months? How, how long have you dieted in your life? Probably more than six months, right? I know I have. And so imagine if you've dieted for 12 months, that's a double the effect theoretically, or two years that's quadruple the effect that these men were experiencing. So now I'm going to be talking about the for Chava. That's the Polish way of saying Warsaw, which is the English way of saying it, the Chava Warsaw Ghetto hunger study. And so this is talking about people within the Warsaw Ghetto, which is I'm going to be talking about these people who were Holocaust victims. So if you don't want to hear that, then I'd say skip to the last 10 minutes of the show. Because this is really heavy stuff. And I really I wanted to include this stuff. Because, you know, I'm not correlating dieting with being in the Holocaust at all. I wanted to include this stuff because of the incredible work that the doctors and scientists did under an imaginable conditions to get this information out. And it's it's not as widely distributed. And so this was going on in In this kind of the same time as the Minnesota starvation experiment, and has way more data, way more participants, and because you know, because of ethics. This is not something that can be recreated. And bravely, the scientists saw this opportunity to get this information out when they knew that they probably would never see this published themselves. And so we all know we're not we all know, you know, a lot of people know about the Minnesota starvation experiment that was run by white dudes who perpetuated fat phobia. But let's look at the the Warsaw Ghetto hunger study, which is an incredible, remarkable study that was done. And still, we don't have enough information about this, because the study was it was smuggled out of the ghetto. And it's not widely distributed in English. And to get a copy of the study, it's, I was reading up that to get a copy of you know, a manuscript is that the right word manuscript is like 1000 bucks. And so hopefully, people are trying, people are working to try and get this, this information out there even more to recognize the work that these people did. So the, in case you don't know the Warsaw Ghetto, was a walled sealed district in Warsaw in Poland, and half a million people were there in that tiny little area that was just about one square mile wide. Hey, Victoria, from the future here, I'm just listening to some bits of the podcast here. And before we go into this section about the the Warsaw Ghetto, just a mention on language here, I noticed that a couple of times when I'm quoting articles, there is the word Jew. And I'm not sure if I say that independently. And I was just doing some research on whether the preferable languages Jewish people, Jewish, people's Jewish, or Jew, and there seems to be conflicting. From from my my quick research, there seems to be conflicting ideas from from Jewish people about what they prefer. I think that Jewish people is the probably closest to what most Jewish people would prefer. And so I just want to recognize that and apologize for using that word. Even though I was reading from articles, I should have spotted that as something that might be seen as dehumanizing or offensive. So just an FYI, that is coming up. So yeah, just wanted to make a note. So, this this happened in February 1942 and 28 Jewish doctors, headed by Israel, Miller kowski decided to use the famine to conduct this extensive study of the physiological and pathology of hunger. So, quote, Milla kowski thought in practical terms, he wanted to understand how hunger disease could be cured. It was another physician, Dr. Julian, FlyDubai who was the potential of who saw the potential of such a study who created the whole research platform, he wrote that this was a singular opportunity to study hunger and that he wanted to do so with the best tools at his disposal disposal, so that the results would have incontrovertible scientific validity. So they had 150 participants so you know, imagine with the the not even imagine, the Minnesota starvation experiment had 36. And so they had 150 participants, which was a phenomenal number and it was adults and children. And so the Nazis rationed out a certain amount of calories per day, depending on your status that they decided. And so Poles who were not Jews, I'm gonna mention calories here, got 1000 calories, other other folks will get less, and the least would go to Jewish People who were rationed out 180 calories a day. So the theory was, I think it was eight of ALEC Eichmann decided that, that with 108 calories, the ghetto would be liquidated in nine months. So everyone, you know, the the Jews would be dead in nine months.

But they managed to get soup kitchens in the ghetto, they managed to smuggle in food, they were not about to let the Nazis do that to them, you know, starve them. And so they came up with so many ingenious ways and took massive risks to get food into the ghetto. And to feed others, there was a soup kitchen at a number of soup kitchens, that would make up to 100,000 meals of soup every single day. So these participants, they were put into one of two hospitals and the doctors, so they would come in, and the doctors would make sure that they had access to food through the black market, even though the doctors were desperately hungry. And so they even gave them sugar, which was priceless. And so in, in the study participants, they were given, so the people in the ghetto, I'm gonna mention calories here, they depended on how rich you were consumed, perhaps 1700 calories a day, and the pourer, around 800 calories a day. Again, so they, they smuggled in, because it took a while to do to get all the equipment, right. And so women would smuggle in all of these different testing devices and tools and all sorts of different things. Because they weren't, they were to these two hospitals. But then, you know, hospitals in the loosest sense of the word, they didn't have medicine, they didn't have equipment, basically, they had a few beds, and the hospitals were there to watch people die, basically. And they had a ton of incredible minds there. And you know, all of these wildly successful and intelligent doctors. And so women would smuggle in these, the medical equipment, because men, if they were caught, they would have a look at to see if they were circumcised or not. Whereas women, if they're caught, they could deny that they were Jewish, and hopefully escape the harshest sentence. So they would feed these people, they will do the refeeding of the of the participants. So do the refeeding from a depending on what what they were eating before, depending on their wealth within the ghetto, and what access that they had. They, they began refeeding them and quote, it was found that the adaptation to starvation did not reverse even Lee when abundant food became available. So with these participants, they would isolate them. So they would isolate them in rooms within the hospital so that they wouldn't be affected by infectious disease, or diseases going around the ghetto. Vaccines and medicine were not allowed in the ghetto. And so they really was extensive, to keep these people isolated so that that data was good. And so they weren't being affected by other things. It was just the access to food. So they the equipment that they smuggled in, they did equipment for blood tests, they examined the acidity of the digestive system, hormone levels, which is bananas for the time, even glucose tolerance levels. So this was absolutely remarkable that they were doing all of these things. And they called the effects of this starvation, the hunger disease, and so they came up with that term, but hunger disease, I'm going to mention autopsies here. If a participant died, then they autopsy them to make sure they didn't die from anything else. And if they did, and the data from that that person was removed from the study, they actually did 1000s of autopsy autopsies adopters there to to study and learn from, from what was going on and try and give that information to others, which is just just so remarkable that that was happening. So what they found from this study was, quote, The first stage is a decline in the reserves of fat. The second stage is next Other rated aging of all the body tissues the final stage which is relevant for our time is called cachexia. Sometimes irreversible decline in the mass of body fat and muscle in children are also affects the bones. Quote, The results of these studies showed that the body made a series of complex circulatory and metabolic changes during starvation. Metabolic output is very low and even resting mytub metabolism was well but note below normal. Most of the clinical changes the slow heartbeat the low temperature that lack of movement and the shallow and slow breathing were to conserve energy. Continuing quote, at first there is what's known as hunger madness, people became verb become violent, people are ready to do anything anything in order to eat and get food cannibalism can occur killing theft. The Minnesota study dwelt on this stage because they wanted to understand the behavior of POWs prisoners of war. This study describes how they had to restrain the subjects with force because they were willing to do anything to get food, they wanted to eat everything, including non foods. After the madness comes a stage of apathy. You're hungry, but you don't want to eat food is no longer of interest. The subjects in the ghetto were already in that phase. They were apathetic. So the study ended in August 1942, with the grace action of a Chava, which is the great action, which was the Nazi codename for the deportation and mass murder of the Jews of Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto during the summer of 1942. Beginning in July Yeah, and so they were they Nazis used the euphemistic jargon resettlement to the east and they were sent to Treblinka, which was a death camp. Of those who led the study, only one survived. Maybe a couple, actually, a couple two survived. And so the manuscript when they started doing the, the the grace action, the deportation, they, it happened over the summer, right. And so the doctors knew what was happening, they knew what was coming. And so they knew that they needed to get this information out there and make this study and make this report and bring all the findings together, to send off for others to learn from. And so quote, on July 2219 42, just when the studies were going full swing, mass deportations from the ghetto began, the work was suddenly interrupted but not abandoned. The charts and tables are painfully gathered, dated the rough drafts all that was available were hurriedly gathered together and carefully hidden, lest they be lost. Whatever had been saved of the accumulated data were systematized and edited. This final stage was carried out in one of the buildings in the Jewish cemetery, those physicians still remaining in the ghetto held mill meetings at the risk of their own lives to decide what should be included in the manuscript. They had no hope that they themselves would survive to see its publication, but they went on with their labors nevertheless, confident that future generations would find in the research on hunger and inspiration for scientific investigation. So the entire manuscript was published in 1979, by John Wiley and Sons under the title hunger disease studies by the Jewish physicians in the Warsaw Ghetto. So there was two so two people two people who were in the study managed to get out Dr. Apfel bomb, and another doctor Henrik Phoenix Stein. So Dr. Phoenix sign was captured so quote, was captured by the Nazis in 1943. As a ghetto was burned. He was transferred to multiple camps and couldn't Auschwitz before going to Dachau, where he was liberated by the US Army on April 30 1945. Following liberation, who worked at the U N. R, a hospital in Munich, in 1948. He joined the ops, obstetrics and gynecology department at the Munich University poly poly clinic before immigrating to Canada. There he had two successful medical careers, one as an obstetrician and the other and the second as a psychiatrist specializing in the problems that confront many of the Holocaust survivors and their families. To the other doctor, Dr. Apple bomb, died in 1946. He had a heart attack in the street and died in 1946, unfortunately, and everyone else the information is not confirmed but presumed died due to the mass murder at Treblinka, on the way to Treblinka.

So something that came from this study is the knowledge that giving a starving person food will kill them. And so this came from this study, sorry, I said that it came from the Minnesota starvation experiment, but but it didn't, because we, in the Minnesota starvation experiment, they weren't able to recreate the weren't able to do this right. And so, this study, this important study was shown that if you try to refeed people, then they will die within 24 to 72 hours. And so, a final note on this is Miller kowski, the lead researcher here in the preface for the study, ended it with the words, non ominous, Maura, I shall not die, I shall not wholly die. And so Dr. Miller kowski knew that he was facing imminent death. And this was his and his colleagues. Work that was going to live on after them. So I think it's really important to talk about this this study. And, again, just a big FYI. I'm not comparing what happened in this situation in the Warsaw Ghetto, with dieting, because it's it's totally different. But I think it's important to know that there is another study that is similar to the Minnesota starvation experiment done under extreme circumstances, to risk their lives to do this work so that people can learn about hunger, I think is really, really important. And and I don't think that the the, yeah, I don't think the focus should all be on the Minnesota starvation experiment because there's other stuff out there, right. So okay, so finally, let's talk about the children of the hunger Vinter. So, quote, I'm going to link to this this article about this article saying, This is what hunger does. And it talks about the children of hunger Vinter so important quote from this, this piece, important information on hunger and malnutrition was a mass in the Netherlands to during the war. By 19. By September 1944, the southern southern Netherlands had been liberated in support of the Allied events. The Dutch government in exile in London called for a national railway strike. The Germans retaliated by banning food transport by train to the urbanized West, surprising cities quickly ran out. To make matters worse, the cold weather arrived earlier that year and it was unusually harsh. Thus began the Hunger Winter, or the hunger Vinter which is, which cost an estimated 200,000 lives. So looking at what happens to pregnant women in the winter of 1944 to 45, the average pregnant Dutch woman didn't gain weight she lost it. babies conceived and born during the hunger vinta weigh less than those whose lives had begun in peacetime. Their bodies and heads were smaller, they're more likely to die at birth or in the first three months of life. Dozens of research projects since the 1960s have examined birth records from the period the most famous makeup the Dutch, the most famous make up the Dutch famine birth cohort study. For 20 years and counting researchers have been tracking the health of men and women born in winter 1944 to 45 Amsterdams of Wilhelma gaseous hospital tool will help Villa Mina gas gaseous hospital. The findings are staggering. They show that malnutrition and a mother has listed lasting negative effects on a child's health. The foundation for many own of illnesses cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancers, cancer all laid in the womb, a baby suffers a cancer crisis of its mother mother's hunger, all its life, the effects of the most severe when the mother goes without sufficient food in the first three months after conception, when vital organs like the heart, brain liver, for children conceived or born during the Dutch famine were more like more likely to encounter psychological problems such as depression and schizophrenia. Since our bodies had learned in the womb to process nutrients as efficiently as possible, they were prone to becoming fat later, but they use your word. So that is a roundup of, of information, information, information, inflammation, of the inflammation. So all of this to say that not eating enough food is a serious thing with a lot of consequences. And these effects start at what what, what some would say is a reasonable amount of calorie intake. And so, if you are on a diet, you are literally unable to flourish in your life, because of the things that are happening to your body and brain. And even when it's over. And you're out of the diet. Many of us are still hyper fixated on food, and feel out of control around food, and the result of restricting food. Dieting is disordered recovering from dieting is, oh God. And again, I think about all of these people, they weren't trying to lose weight due to fat phobia, and so would happily eat food when they could. The difference is that a lot of us are given the ability to eat food, but we don't give ourselves the freedom. And so we may as well be stuck in the starvation phase that's mentioned in the Minnesota starvation experiment. So trigger warning mention of calories. If we look at the Chava ghetto hunger study, the children of the hunger Vinter and the Minnesota starvation experiment, a diet of 1600 to 3200 calories has shown to cause people to be obsessed and fixated on food to the point of fighting over it and playing with food or treating it like a baby like coddling food, stealing food and feeling ashamed, guzzling water, seeking fullness, eating things that aren't food or chain smoking or eating sugar free gum constantly. extreme highs with long lasting crashes, depression, emotional distress, decrease in muscle mass strength, stamina, body temperature, heart rate, metabolism and sex drive, increased fatigue, irritability and depression, social withdrawal and isolation, a decline in concentration comprehension and judgment capabilities, a plateau of weight loss, and then increased weight gain and long term negative effects. And so if we think about the Minnesota starvation experiment that lasted the starvation phase lasted six months only, how long have you dieted dieted at something like 1600 to 3200 calories a day, which a lot of people would say is maybe too much calories, and this is the effect that it had on these people. And some would say 1600 calories is a very reasonable amount of calories for someone who is looking to lose weight in a quote unquote, safe way. And it's not. It's not and even in 1944, they knew that reducing calories would lead to temporary weight loss, and then plateau weight loss, and then increased weight gain. So why are we still thinking that we can come up with something else? And even when we are are done with our diets, we are still so affected by that restriction that we put ourselves through. And so, if we think about like, this is this has been, you know, 1600 calories, is seen as starvation in an experiment in experiments. Why is it reasonable that we do that to ourselves in the hopes of temporary really losing weight. So I hope that

Vinny Welsby:

this episode has been informative. And if you're feeling any feelings about the stuff that that we've spoken about today, just give yourself some some self care. It's not your fault. It's not my fault that we have been sucked into dieting. We have been lied to and information misrepresented and it is not okay and so all this to say it makes sense that we are fixated on food, we can be fixated on food, even if we're not dieting because restriction does a whole shit ton to our bodies and our brains. So sending big fatty hugs to you. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks for hanging out with me today and I will see you in a while alligator stay fierce Fanti goodbye.

Episode 172 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 172, The science of protecting ourselves from anti fat bias. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Hello and welcome my little fifth fatty and fat ally, please. First fatties is fatties. My little fears fatties should it be juicy big fist fatties.

Unknown Speaker 0:41

How you doing? How's life? What's going on sir? What's the crackers? We'd say in in Ireland at some crackers, Gaelic for a lot of things. I gave good guys Gaelic for what's the news? What's the gossip? How are you? Is it good? Was it good? Did you have a good crack? They are a good crack. Spelt see? A I see. I forget sometimes when I'm talking to people who don't know what that means, like, What's the crack? Right? No, you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. But anyway, there you go. You know, you know what I mean when I say that.

Unknown Speaker 1:22

So today, I want to talk about a paper that came out and was covered by Regan Chasteen. And a few other things around what the science shows about how we can survive a fat hating world and not become dead.

Unknown Speaker 1:48

So, and the harms of anti fatness weight stigma, I don't really like using weight stigma as much because you know, the phrase weight stigma because what I found is that there'll be a way that thin people will make it about them. And they'll say weight stigma are, I was skinny, shamed. And it's like,

Unknown Speaker 2:10

that's not what the weight stigma is about. It's about fat folks. So, but a lot of this research is talking about W s weight stigma. So but you know, so I'll just use weight stigma but my preference is not to say weight stigma, although there's, you know, there's nothing wrong with it. But I mean, sometimes when people's people hear it or read it, they think it means all types of weight stigma like for all body sizes, but it's meant to be for, for fat folks.

Unknown Speaker 2:40

So Reagan has got a substack substack is kind of like a Patreon or a medium or, you know, it's like you can read some of her posts for free a lot of them actually for free. And then there's other ones which is like, Ask Me Anything type of thing.

Unknown Speaker 2:58

And if you're not subscribed already, it's like 20 bucks for a year. I mean, it's, it's, it's cheap. And Reagan is amazing. I talk about Reagan on the show, like all the time, I'm like such a fan person. It's creepy. I'm just a giant creep.

Unknown Speaker 3:22

I guess I you know, when Reagan and I are colleagues, I guess,

Unknown Speaker 3:28

to be in the same realm of Reagan to seems

Unknown Speaker 3:33

funny to me, because, you know, she's been doing it a lot longer than me, but

Unknown Speaker 3:38

you know, we've collaborated on things in the past and chatted and emailed. So I'm claiming that title of colleague. Yeah, so I'm gonna have the links for everything on the show notes. Again, just a reminder, if you've not heard about it, there is a transcript for every show every single show on the on the show notes go on the website, which is facebook.com forward slash, podcast, or for this episode is Facebook dot forwards. First party.com forward slash 172. There'll be a button there saying transcript and you can go to the transcript and you can also click another button that will take you so that you can listen and watch the transcript at the same time and read the words go by one by one and it highlights the words and I think that's that's that's cool too. So if that's something that is useful for you that's there for every single episode that we've ever done. So let's start in by looking at the study that Reagan is talking about. In her post. Her Post said study looks at ways to protect ourselves from weight stigma.

Unknown Speaker 4:52

So I'm just gonna go straight to the study, study and pull out some paragraph here of harms the harms of weight stigma

Unknown Speaker 5:00

So, weight stigma is a form of social stigma that primarily targets higher weight individuals in virtually every domain of daily living. And it is becoming the norm worldwide.

Unknown Speaker 5:13

And so then they talk about what's in the paper continuing. A critical take home message from this review in the paper is that the multiple injurious effects of weight stigma on body image and beyond, are in calm traversable. Maybe that again, multiple injurious effects of wasting were on body image and beyond, are incontrovertible. There's no doubt that anti fat bias hurts us physically and mentally continuing, but very little has been done to address it. In our final note, we recognize the need for body image and eating disorder scholars and practice practitioners to become part of the solution to ending weight bias in our communities and for our clients. Just perfect timing. I watched a training by Mikey Mercedes and Monica crit called anti fatness and public health for New England Public Health Training Center. really fucking good. It's on my keys patreon link will be in the bio and it's a free watch if you want to watch it, so so good salivating, salivating watching it, and they describe there's a slide which is understanding anti fatness through the social ecological model. So I don't know if you remember but on the show on on my Instagram, I've described the levels of anti fat bias individual interpersonal, institutional, intra personal.

Unknown Speaker 6:43

And they have done something a little different is they've broken it down into micro meso and macro. So micro being the individual mezzo being the interpersonal and macro being the institutional. So on the micro individual bits area

Unknown Speaker 7:08

on this slide, and this is you can go and check out my Mikey Mikey's Patreon for this.

Unknown Speaker 7:15

It talks about anti fatness, okay, and the and the effects. Okay, so we've got internalized fat phobia, distorted relationships with food and body example, dissatisfaction, shame, disordered eating, medical and complex trauma. So the complex trauma they're talking about there is the trauma of going to healthcare professionals, again and again and again and again and continually getting those traumas. And they might not be, you know, big traumas, or they could be big traumas. And they're happening again and again and again.

Unknown Speaker 7:56

High allostatic load dysregulated metabolism, discontent discontinued could discontinuity of care, weight cycling, which is yo yo dieting and mortality.

Unknown Speaker 8:11

I missed one here and it's mental health sequentially. Example depression, anxiety. So quality means a condition which is consequence of a previous disease or injury. So the final one there was was mortality. And so I just want to give you a quote from a study that looks at

Unknown Speaker 8:36

it's called looks at this weight discrimination and risk of mortality from psychological science, and quotes, this is the beginning of the study. Discrimination based on weight is a stressful social experience linked to declines in physical and mental health. We examined whether this harmful Association extends to risk of mortality, participants in the Health and Retirement Study. So those participants in this study called Health and Retirement, there was 13,692 of them. And the midlife in United States study. Midas for short. And there was 5079 people in that. So we have 13 518 18 618, six something 18,600 Roughly people reported on perceived discriminatory experiences an attribute of those experiences to a number of personal characteristics including weight. So we have 18,000 people and they say, Hey, I experienced some some discriminatory, something discriminatory. Based on this personal characteristic way discrimination was associated with an increase in mortality risk of nearly 60% in both the groups of participants

Unknown Speaker 10:00

This increased risk was not accounted for by common physical and psychological risk factors. So the risk was not down to accounted for by common physical and psychological risk factors. The association between mortality in weight discrimination was generally stronger than that between mortality and other attributions for discrimination. So the risk of mortality is stronger with weight discrimination than it is for other attributions for discrimination. So say if someone was like, Oh, you're old and I hate old people, or they say you're fat and I hate fat people, the risk to the association between mortality was higher with the wage discrimination.

Unknown Speaker 10:54

In addition to its association with poor health outcomes, weight discrimination, may shorten life expectancy. Okay, so weight bias weight stigma anti fatness is deadly, right? It's deadly. And so it's no good. So let's go back to the original study. And I didn't even tell you the name of it. The original study that we're looking at is called challenging oppression, a social identity model of stigma resistance and higher white individuals, Angela meadows and Suzanne Hicks. And it's open access, by the way, so you can go and go and read it, if you would like to. So how did they go about this measuring weight stigma and what to do about it?

Unknown Speaker 11:44

Actually scrap that we're going to go to another study from Angela, Angela meadows and Rachel Calogero. And this is studies on weight stigma and body image in higher weight individuals. So studies on weight stigma in body image and higher weight individuals. Okay, so what they're looking at is in this study is like how weight stigma affects body image. Okay, so looking at how they collected this information.

Unknown Speaker 12:11

If you ask someone, Hey, have you experienced anti fatness in your life? Most people will will, who are who are not in fat liberation will recall, you know, a few significant things throughout their life.

Unknown Speaker 12:30

A lot of times people don't realize something is stigma. Because they feel like they deserve it. And so they're like, Well, you know, I deserve it. I deserve that bad treatment because I'm fat. So is it stigma or is it just me getting my just desserts? Also people fail to remember or struggle to remember, if I said, even if you are aware of anti fatness? Can you remember every single thing that happened? Discriminatory experience. Again, it would probably be the big ones and not the everyday things. So quote, my husband Rosen developed one of the first complex measures of experienced weight stigma, the stigmatizing situations inventory. The SSI prompts respondents using a list of 50 specific situations across 11 different domains, family, strangers, employment doctors, etc. And participants indicate how often they have ever experienced each type of stigma. A US study in which 50 Higher white women completed a daily diary for each day for seven days indicated whether any of the 50 items of the SSI had occurred to them that day, resulted in over 1000 incidents being recorded, or approximate approximately three incidences per person over the seven days.

Unknown Speaker 13:55

Additionally, none of the currently used measures have experienced weight stigma include the media as a possible sport as possible source of stigma. So that's a an issue with that of collecting people's experiences. So with that, that, that method, the SSI method, stigmatizing situations inventory, they're not they've not

Unknown Speaker 14:15

including media, which as we know, is huge. So continuing representations of highway bodies in both news and entertainment media, are most often stigmatizing in nature. And the media is frequently mentioned as a source of waste stigma in this qualitative in qualitative studies and studies that capture stigma experiences and real time doesn't in addition to issues with the reliability of recall it is likely that existing quantitative studies have experienced weight stigma may further underestimate the extent of exposure to such negative measures, and Australian study of 46 higher weight Australian adults, in which the media was included as a potential source of stigma in the instructions to participants, participants complete

Unknown Speaker 15:00

Did the SSI at the start of the study and reported on average having five experienced weight stigma several times in their life. By comparison, using a personal digital assistant to recording stigmatizing events. As they occurred, the same participants recorded on average 11.1 episodes of weight stigma over the subsequent two week period, or pucks approximately 0.8 episodes per day. So that's interesting, right? If we're thinking about media, it goes from three incidences over seven days, to 0.8 per day. So 11.1, over two weeks. So let's say that's 5.5 over one week, the other one was three over one week. And previous they said, previous to the study, five said that they experienced weight stigma several times in their life. And then after two weeks, that several has been identified to be very, very low guesstimate because they're experiencing 11 in two weeks.

Unknown Speaker 16:12

So that's interesting. So all that to tell you that you. I mean, even if you don't, you're soaking the shut up and the environment, right?

Unknown Speaker 16:24

If you live in a bigger body,

Unknown Speaker 16:26

the rates of weight stigma that you're experiencing is probably higher than what you presume it to be. And that's, that's like when I reflect on my own experiences. I'm like, oh, man, I've got no weight stigma in my life. I've got no anti fatness, right, because this is my job for activist. I don't stand for that shit. But if we think about it, like how many times is my doctor said to me, Oh, you have this condition lose weight?

Unknown Speaker 16:55

Many times? How many times have I seen shows that make fun of fat people? Or show that thinness is the idea or

Unknown Speaker 17:07

come across a Tinder profile that says only healthy people, etc. Right. And if we think about it like that, the ways are numerous. And even though there might not be these big things like we will remember like core memories of our mum saying XYZ when we when we were young. The weight of all of those together might be just as powerful as you know, this incident or that incident, and that's just over a week or two weeks or a month or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 17:37

Okay, so let's talk about internalized anti fatness.

Unknown Speaker 17:42

When higher weight individuals this is quote from the same. The same paper that we're reading when higher weight individuals endorse negative stereotypes, and ascribe those negative attributes to them stet selves, they are to said to express internalized weight stigma, or weight related self stigma. Internalized weight stigma is most commonly defined as not just awareness, or even endorsement of negative stereotypes, but it's also as applying those negative attributes to yourself and subsequently devaluing yourself because of it. So internalized is like internalized anti fatness is oh, so I know that they say that fat people are about to spontaneously combust because they're so unhealthy. Lalala. And I think that's true, you know, so that would be internalized anti fatness or internalized weight stigma.

Unknown Speaker 18:40

Not being internalized. And, and, and I'm a bad person because of it. And not internalizing weight stigma, which is where we're trying to get in this work is saying, they say that fat people, lazy ingredient horrible. But I don't agree with them. And I think that I'm an okay person. Right? So that wouldn't be you wouldn't be internalizing weight stigma. Now, is it as black and white? Is that Fuck no. I'll be we're gonna be like, Yeah, I know. That, you know, that is bullshit. And then also have thoughts of that I'm a piece of shit very often. So when I'm doing coaching with people, almost exclusively, they will say I think that fat people can be beautiful and healthy and deserve care, and all of the things that we've been taught

Unknown Speaker 19:40

or bullshit

Unknown Speaker 19:42

but when it comes to me, this is the thing when it comes to them. All of that goes out the window. No, can I be beautiful and fat? No. Can I am I going to be greedy and lazy if I have a big body or a bigger body yours am Hi

Unknown Speaker 20:00

desirable No. Like, it's so clear cut. And so that's, you know, someone who's still struggling with anti fat bias. And it's a process. And so that's what we want to do is get away from that internalization, which is hard work. Something that I do, which might be helpful a little exercise for you is when I talk to coaching clients is I asked them a question. If I had a crystal ball, I don't have a crystal ball. And I can see into the future I cannot see into the future. And I saw you and I said, Hey, by the way, in the future, you have a bigger body.

Unknown Speaker 20:37

What comes up for you? And it's, it's really illuminating? Because people will certain things will come up. And not everyone's are the same. So if we're looking at things like

Unknown Speaker 20:51

desirability, health worthiness, whether someone is a productive member of society, whether they are morally good or bad, and so asking yourself, like, if I had a bigger body, would I be

Unknown Speaker 21:06

attractive? Would that if I'm not attractive? Would that define my worth as a human in my eyes? Not in society's eyes? Would I be happy? Why not? And you know, some people will say, well, because I'll be isolated, I'll be lonely, I won't have anyone to love me. Okay, so that tells me that this you've got some you've been told some things about fat people that we're all lonely and sad and can't, can't find someone to love us.

Unknown Speaker 21:37

And it's a single one and asking yourself those questions of,

Unknown Speaker 21:43

you know, and then and then like a question of, well, how, how might you have come about having a bigger body? And you know, the answer is what we're looking for is, you know, just, who knows, it's just the way it is some nothing.

Unknown Speaker 22:00

Like it's, I'm, I'm a lazy, greedy person. A lot of people will say, Oh, because I'm lazy, because I'm greedy, then I'm out of control. And I'm like, Oh, this is good stuff. This is good stuff. Because when we recognize these things, we can see where we've got that sticky. Yucky anti fatness just clinging around and so we can think about other people. Yeah, no, I think fat people in a me are amazing. But when we make it about ourselves that way, that's when that anti fatness really comes out. But the stage before that is you think oh fat people are horrible and disgusting. So if you're if you're past that stage, then that's great, right? Because then you can work work work on that really like deep stuff.

Unknown Speaker 22:44

Because you've learned that

Unknown Speaker 22:47

you've overcome that kind of like, all fat people are gross, nevermind me I'm gross even Ramallah Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 22:56

correlates of experienced and internalized weight stigma. It's a quote, both experienced, so people experiencing weight stigma from other people or other sources, and internalized, both experienced when experienced is

Unknown Speaker 23:16

having that experience of someone have something happening, which is stigmatizing and internalized. So that's you thinking that badnesses fatness is bad and you're bad. That because you're fat. So both experienced and internalized weight stigma have been linked with a range of physical and psychological and behavioral outcomes. Even after controlling for BMI and other potential confounding factors included disordered eating patterns, reduced motivation to exercise, avoidant coping strategies, substance dependence and social and behavioral problems in adolescents including substance use self harm and suicide in reality, okay, so that's where the what they're controlled for. So, just to kind of that sentence again.

Unknown Speaker 24:01

Weight stigma has been linked with a range of physical, psychological and behavioral outcomes, even after controlling for different things. Weight stigma is also strongly associated with healthcare avoidance among higher weight individuals, including reduced engagement with preventative screening programs perceive weights discrimination is associated with higher risk of chronic morbidity and mortality. So just a reminder of morbidity and mortality. The term morbidity refers to illness or disease. Mortality refers to death. So we're where we were where we were well on. Perceived weight discrimination is associated with higher risk of chronic chronic morbidity and mortality, so getting sick and dying, and with poor self reported physical and psychological site, psychological health and health related quality of life. Indeed, both actual experience of Six Sigma

Unknown Speaker 25:00

and simply fear of being stigmatized by others appears to mediate the relationship between higher BMI and poor self reported health.

Unknown Speaker 25:12

Let me say that again,

Unknown Speaker 25:15

both actual experience of stigma and simply fear of being stigmatized by others. So that could be that that fear of, I don't want to get bigger, because if I do, I'm going to experience

Unknown Speaker 25:33

worse things, which could be true because this site is is fat phobic as fuck, right? But to what extent and is that stigmatizing from you? You know?

Unknown Speaker 25:45

And so how much is it going to come to reality but even just that fear, for fear of being supervisors, appears to mediate the relationship between higher BMI and poor self reported health? So, they linked to a study there the study says, quote, weight stigma is pervasive in the United States. We tested the hypothesis hypothesis, that stigma may be a mechanism through which fatness negatively affects self reported health. So does anti fatness harm our health?

Unknown Speaker 26:30

And then the report was? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 26:33

And is that the the mechanism the thing that causes that negative self reporting of health? Basically it Yes, it does. Foot continuing in another study, the association between higher BMI and poor health related quality of life was only observed in those individuals who also had high levels of internalized weight stigma.

Unknown Speaker 26:59

So let me say that again, in another study, the association between higher BMI and poor, physical health related quality of life was only observed in those individuals who also had high levels of internalized weight stigma. I think that's really important because what this is saying is that we can live in a fat phobic world, and we can protect ourselves by not allowing those messages into our being by not agreeing with the oppressors. And then we are able to mitigate the harms of anti fatness. So the people who are the have the highest risk of harm from anti fatness are those who had high levels of internalized weight stigma. And the thing is, what are we doing to fat people, we are making them stigmatized. We are telling fat people you are horrible and disgusting. And you should you know, and it's that self fulfilling prophecy, you know, a person is a fat person is sick. And they're told that they need to lose weight.

Unknown Speaker 28:20

The act of trying to lose weight causes harm.

Unknown Speaker 28:24

The act of telling someone to lose weight causes them to experience stigma, the fact that they fail, losing weight

Unknown Speaker 28:35

increases stigma. And it means that even if they've never attempted weight loss, it means that there's avoidance of going to health care professionals delayed diagnosis, and then the fat person gets sick dies and then it's like, ah, we told you fat people are sick or dying because they're fat and lazy and horrible and

Unknown Speaker 29:02

so you better go on a diet and not become fat. And then the circle continues and continues and continues.

Unknown Speaker 29:11

So you know, this is like a self fulfilling prophecy. And but then if we take a cog out of that wheel and say, okay, you know, hey, you're fat, you should go and lose weight and then you say fuck that.

Unknown Speaker 29:23

I don't think so. We're removing ourselves from that process right? And

Unknown Speaker 29:31

doing better for our physical and mental health because of that.

Unknown Speaker 29:35

Okay, so next experience, weight stigma and body image. So studies have found that frequency of stigmatizing experiences is strongly correlated with body image distress in weight loss treatment seeking populations, okay, so people who are looking to lose weight, have more frequency of stigmatizing experience.

Unknown Speaker 30:00

And, and that is strongly correlated with body image distress.

Unknown Speaker 30:07

And the effect is exacerbated when the targets also hold stronger anti fat attitudes themselves.

Unknown Speaker 30:14

So if you're anti fat, then you probably have bad body image. In a community sample of highway individuals 97% of the 111 participants reported having ever experienced weight stigma with half having such experiences, at least once per week. Scores were strongly correlated with body dissatisfaction and adapted version of the SSI remember the SSI was like saying, How many times have you experienced stigma. And the deputy version of the SSI that examined experienced weight stigma at different life points found formative experiences of weight stigma during childhood, in particular, hovering, have lingering effects on adult body image problems.

Unknown Speaker 31:01

So that you know why fucking up kids is so harmful. It's having a huge impact. And I tell you, I tell you, the amount of times I talked to someone who is struggling with body image, and they mention a parent or guardian saying or doing something fucked up, like

Unknown Speaker 31:25

90 plus percent.

Unknown Speaker 31:28

Really, I really feel like if

Unknown Speaker 31:33

parents or guardians or adults in children's lives, understood about anti fatness and did stuff about it. They're really setting up their kid for success in regards to body image stuff, of not having issues with body image, like so internalized weight stigma and body image, the relationship between both self reported and objectively measured BMI tends to only weakly correlate with measures of body image that is poor body image is less related to actual body weight and shape, but is rather dependent upon negative self evaluation due to weight. So So what that means is, doesn't matter what your body size is, you can have a smaller body and also perceive that to be so egregious that it's going to have a negative net more negative effect, versus someone who has a bigger body. And it's just like, Oh, my body's fine. So it's not that the You're bigger than bigger the body equals worse body image issues. It's how you perceive your body.

Unknown Speaker 32:43

In fact, two separate studies conducted in higher weight community samples, BMI and a general dislike of fat individuals accounted for only a small amount of the variance in body image concerns whereas internalized weight stigma explained between a third and a half of the variation in in scores. And so these are people who, who are not liking themselves due to weight stigma and anti fatness and so no matter your size, if you are agreeing with Auntie fatness, and that is going to affect your body image next being stigmatized by the by others because of one's weight is associated with higher levels of internalized weight bias, which in turn is linked with poor body image. Yeah. So again, people in your life, doctors, etc. If you've been stigmatized, you slink with higher poor body image. And finally, they have a thing about ethnic and cultural differences. And basically they're saying that

Unknown Speaker 33:50

quote here although early cost cost cultural studies suggesting differences in anti fat attitudes between countries, negative attitudes towards higher white bodies are becoming the norm. So finally looking at ethnic and cultural differences, although early cross cultural studies suggest suggested differences in anti fat attitudes between countries negative attitudes towards higher weight bodies are becoming the norm worldwide, even in countries where fat was previously admired. An experienced weight stigma is now prevalent in both developed and developing countries. So basically, they're saying that ethnic and cultural differences, the differences are not as as apparent as they used to be because anti fatness is spreading around the world. So thanks, white supremacy for that. Great contribution to the world warms.

Unknown Speaker 34:41

Okay, so basically all that to say they is Andy van is bad, right? And in fact, this is bad for us. So, the answer to today's topic question, the science of protecting ourselves from anti fatness. So how do we protect ourselves and

Unknown Speaker 35:00

I think we've got an idea already from looking at that other study. So let's look at the study. The the original study that I was talking about, again by Angela meadows, links are going to be in, in the show notes. And so basically number one, to overcoming this stuff is deciding whether you belong to the group that is called fat

Unknown Speaker 35:24

or not. We're just using the word fat as like the group fat there is no like, there's no group, or we all band together where we say, Hey, this is group fat. It's just the concept of fat community.

Unknown Speaker 35:38

Okay, so this is a quote from Reagan. In order to identify predictors of weight stigma resistance, they examined factors including the alignment with the group fat. They start from social identity theory, which is as meadow explains, quote, a theory of intergroup behavior that was developed in the 60s and 70s. Evidence from many types of marginalized groups suggest that where people can leave a devalued group, that is usually the strategy they pursue. This is what we know from experience, but it hadn't previously been applied to the idea that weight control ability beliefs, constitute that permeable slash impermeable group boundary, so should protect activism or alternative behaviors. So Reagan says, in the context of that framework, the assumption was that those who think weight is changeable, are likely to be working to leave the fat group or enter the not fat group. Whereas those who have come to the conclusion that long term significant weight loss is improbable, including through their own experience of weight cycling, may come to view themselves as permanent members of the fat group. For those members of the fat group. The next detriments determinant of stigma resistance becomes if they believe they deserve lower status, or if they think that lower status is being unfairly foisted on them. The study authors create an online survey survey to measure perceived stigma level stigma, level of identification as a word slash fat person, because you know, not every fat person would identify as fat right? Perceived legitimacy of anti fat discrimination, group permeability, so can I get out of the fat group, stigma resistance, internalized weight, stigma and global self esteem? Based on their answers, subjects were sorted into three groups about a third were internalizes, who tended to agree with statements relating to internalized weight stigma beliefs, about 17% of the subjects were classified as indifferent. They tended to disagree or had no strong opinions, opinion about statements relating to either weight stigma, internalization or weight stigma resistance. Finally 50% Well resistors 50% Why resistors oh my god, I love this.

Unknown Speaker 38:25

Those who quote tended to disagree with or have no strong opinions about internalization statements, and tended to agree with statements about weight stigma resistance, yeah, go 50%.

Unknown Speaker 38:37

In the subsequent analysis, perceived legitimacy of weight stigma was the most important predictor of internalized stigma Meadows explains, let me read that again. In the subsequent analysis, analysis, perceived legitimacy of weight stigma was the most important predictor of internalized stigma for your green with people, you're going to have that internalized stigma, as we know that internalized stigma is harmful A F. Quote, I think it's easy to understand conceptually, this is from Angela,

Unknown Speaker 39:16

if you think of it as a kind of continuum, even though it's not fully linear with internalizes at one end and resistors at the other. The point here is that legitimacy beliefs were the best predictor of whether people to attend to tend to be internalizes are resistors, internalizes had higher perceived legitimacy, beliefs, although still not high, whereas resistors were way down at the bottom of the measurement scale. Investment in the fat group also predicted resistance, but people were able to reach resist a status even if they didn't invest in the fat group. Meadow says to me, this is the most exciting and empowering

Unknown Speaker 40:00

ultimate peace. group identity is usually considered the major determinant of activism slash resistance, that resistors existed who weren't identified within the group was super interesting. You could call it you could use an ally ship angle. Everyone needs to fight stigma, whatever their own body looks like, or their relationship with it. It's a place we can start, even if we haven't quite quite got a full acceptance yet. Yes, as is the case with many of us who have discovered fat exceptions acceptance slash liberation movements, we get it in principle, but it's hard to overcome all that brainwashing. But we can still fight stigma because stigma is back that group investment brings benefits on its own in group identity is associated with improved well being across marginalized groups. So that's really cool. So

Unknown Speaker 40:59

like, like, this is like saying, like, there's a scale, there was like a scale like a continuum of the resistors. And the internalizes and to be a resistor to get those benefits of, of not internalizing anti fatness, you didn't necessarily have to be, you know, like a fat activist or have a load of fat friends or,

Unknown Speaker 41:21

you know, be in Facebook groups with fat people.

Unknown Speaker 41:25

You could just be like, I think that stuff is bullshit, and I don't believe it, which is really, really exciting and encouraging. Because if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably there or close to being there, or have been there and paths there for a long time, which can help us breathe a sigh of relief that we are doing such incredible work to resist anti fatness, how cool is that? How cool is that? And it's interesting, right? Like,

Unknown Speaker 42:03

I see this of, you know, the people who are really struggling, struggling is like, they just they don't want to identify as fat.

Unknown Speaker 42:11

Because what they're identifying as in their mind is, you know, ugly and lazy and unhealthy and horrible and all those negative things. Right. And so that, that that group permeability, that like Angela Meadows was saying that people traditionally want to get out of the group, the stigmatized group if they can, and it's been seen that fatness is a stigmatized group that you can get out of. And so if you have that belief, and you're trying to get out of that belief, or out of that group, the fat group, then that's not helpful

Unknown Speaker 42:48

to that's not helpful in regards to seeing the negative effects of weight stigma.

Unknown Speaker 42:55

And so the first step being, okay, I've realized that I can't get out of the group. And so it's kind of like, acceptance. And then the next step being, these are my people. This is who I am. And it's fine.

Unknown Speaker 43:15

And maybe the next step is kind of like it here. Fat people rock. If you want help to get with, you know,

Unknown Speaker 43:25

why would you like it here type of thing. I have an Instagram post that came out this week. 28 benefits of being fat. It was also a podcast episode.

Unknown Speaker 43:37

Maybe 50 episodes ago? Oh, my goodness. My goodness. Let's see how long ago it was.

Unknown Speaker 43:46

Episode 128. What are we on? 70? Something? Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker 43:51

not a bad guess. Yeah. So 28 benefits of being fat, right? Like, so things like better cancel sub cancer survival rates, reduced mortality. So fat people tend to live longer than straight size people bouyancy

Unknown Speaker 44:12

being able to recover quicker from COVID, visually interesting, bigot filter,

Unknown Speaker 44:20

etc. And also, you know, what, I think the you know, the accepted acceptance of the group fat

Unknown Speaker 44:30

is not saying it's not hard to be in this group, sometimes. A lot of the times daily, maybe, but it's not the group's

Unknown Speaker 44:39

the fact that the group exists. That's the problem. It's what's happening around us to tell us that this group is bad. I think that's a big difference.

Unknown Speaker 44:51

Okay, so, so if you're struggling with this, ask yourself what beliefs do you have about fatness with you? So

Unknown Speaker 45:00

You, those those things to think about is, if I had a crystal ball in the future, I could see that you have a bigger body than you have now.

Unknown Speaker 45:09

Or maybe even if that's too much that your current body if you desire to be smaller, and then ask yourself, how desirable would I be?

Unknown Speaker 45:19

Ask yourself, What is my health status? It's interesting, because you know, some people will be like, Oh, no, no, my health is my health would be fine. My health would be the same as it is. Now. Some people would be like, I have type two diabetes. And I'm like, Oh, do you see? Okay, so it tells me that you need to unlearn the bullshit, you've learned about type two diabetes, you need to learn that, that it's a genetic condition that you can't eat your way to it, let alone

Unknown Speaker 45:43

a lot of times, it's conditions that run in the family. So desirability, some people like I have, I actually have a really cool husband or I know my husband wouldn't like it. Dump him.

Unknown Speaker 45:56

Or, you know, I just know I would be an attractive and it's like, Uh huh. Who says so? Do you need to be attractive?

Unknown Speaker 46:06

Eating? Like, what would your eating look like? Sometimes people are like, Oh, I'd be I'd have an eating disorder. If I if I had a bigger body. It's because I have an eating disorder.

Unknown Speaker 46:14

Okay, so we need to need to unlearn stuff about that. I people would say I'd be lazy, I would never work out. Okay, so we need to learn about how fat people can

Unknown Speaker 46:25

choose to work out if they want to learn about mobility and ableism and health ism and that type of stuff, not mobility, mobility isn't next point, it's just in my brain. So when you think about laziness, also colonization, white supremacy, because laziness is is attached to that have mean health and desirability, and all of that is all attached to white supremacy, right? But laziness, particularly I think about

Unknown Speaker 46:52

colonization and white supremacy with that mobility. So will you say, you know, I will, I will be I will become disabled. Okay. So again, we should have her ableism. And we'll have a look at you know, can? What is the reality of living in a bigger body?

Unknown Speaker 47:10

Happiness? Would you be happy? Would you be sad? Would you be isolated? Would you have family? Would you not have family like your choice? Like, would you be able to achieve the goals that you want in life?

Unknown Speaker 47:21

So asking those questions, is going to be helpful in helping you guide you to where you need to go next. And get curious because sometimes it's hard to know, you know, like, I don't quite feel there, but I don't know why I can't just shake the idea that I am unattractive, because I'm fat. Or I'm also what Well, who do you have on your life that supports anti fatness and supports fat joy? Okay.

Unknown Speaker 47:54

Because that's the, you know, people having these stigmatizing experiences. Often I talked to people and I say, I ask them this question.

Unknown Speaker 48:03

My mum, she almost Oh, so often.

Unknown Speaker 48:09

It's so often people say, my mum, she makes comments. She doesn't say him about me. She says him about herself. You know, she says that she's lost way or she says she needs to go on a diet or she says she's too fat. And you know, it's only a little comment. So I don't say anything. And I think how many 1000s of only little comments have you heard during your life? Is that supporting you? In your difficult journey? This is difficult. This is a difficult journey because we are surrounded by anti fatness. Is that supporting you? And they'll say, my mum will never change.

Unknown Speaker 48:50

We need to give our loved ones the opportunities to be close to us. If we think that it's appropriate

Unknown Speaker 48:57

if you want to be close to them, right, because you're I feel like we put up a barrier when we say they will never change.

Unknown Speaker 49:07

If they heard us say that they might say give me a chance. On my surprise you

Unknown Speaker 49:15

um, maybe they'll say you're right, I'll never change. But I mean, if we can if it's the feels good and right, giving people the chance to say hey,

Unknown Speaker 49:25

I'm doing this thing I'd love your help. Can you not talk about diets or whatever?

Unknown Speaker 49:31

And you know,

Unknown Speaker 49:34

and with a big Asterix of you know, having levels of privilege to be able to do that and

Unknown Speaker 49:41

how it's difficult and but also on the flip side of that, how much fat Joy do you have in your life? How many wonderful stories about fat people having great lives DC Can you think of like a handful? How many stories have have

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Think people having a good life? Have you seen, I mean, your fingers, you'd have to have like 100,000 fingers to count up. Because it's innumerable. Because that's the way fantasy is presented as

Unknown Speaker 50:14

sad sack. fatness is presented as the film The whale, if you've not listened to that podcast episode is just like fucking depressed and

Unknown Speaker 50:27

the kid hates them and their life is so sad versus fat people being complex humans, just like thin people, it's

Unknown Speaker 50:40

change. And you know, of course, there are fat people who are depressed and fat people who are isolated and fat people who have

Unknown Speaker 50:49

certain issues. And guess what, they're also fat people who are happy, who have wonderful families who have great relationships, who are worshipped and adored by their partners, who have great jobs, who are successful, who fall asleep at night and have a smile on their face. And there are many fat people who are on different levels of that spectrum, right. But we're seeing just that one side of the story of like, what do we know about fat people, especially fat people with more marginalization, especially fat people who are disabled, that all their life is absolutely shit, which is so offensive to the people who are living those lives. And some people might say, Yeah, my life is shit. You know, but some people will say, I'm what's going on the life you know, I'm just here with my cat, my my pee, like I want to go away. And finally, how can you identify and connect with the fat community? And this is not you're not you don't have to. But I think it's really helpful. Being in that fat group, you're in the fat group. Okay, we've decided we're in the fat group, we can't get out of the fat group, which in my point, might my idea my my brain is like, don't care. I'm happy to be here. You know, this is a great little party Island, you know, fat Party Island? Oh, we'll make a little like, kind of what would the fat in group be? Would it be I'll be little, there would be a pole, there'd be floaties. But we wouldn't need them because the fat people would flow. There would be wonderful activities, and there'd be no food shaming, and there'd be no body shaming, and people be able to wear what they want. And oh, what a wonderful place it'd be there'll be joy and laughing and, and softness, and me just giggles And Lord, what a great place for Ireland would be. Ah, so yeah, go and find that that fat fat community if you can, and again, it doesn't have to be in person. We don't want to devalue virtual spaces. Some people cannot access in person spaces in the end. And sometimes virtual spaces are better, right? You can connect with people all across the world.

Unknown Speaker 52:52

So

Unknown Speaker 52:54

So yeah, so that is that is our podcast today. I feel really excited. Right? I hope you feel a bit hopeful, you know, because we hear all these like oh, wow, you know, fat people are about to die Lella fatness is so bad for you. Weight stigma is is bad.

Unknown Speaker 53:11

And we are doing the things to protect ourselves from weight stigma, aren't we? We are we're not engaging in dieting. We're not agreeing with the oppressors.

Unknown Speaker 53:22

Now the final thing, which is really tricky, is engaging with healthcare professionals and getting getting care. And that thing, that's a lot of times out of our control, right. So if we can be really fucking stubborn about getting health care,

Unknown Speaker 53:39

then that would be amazing. Actually, it makes me think about fat trans person makes history SJ let me find SJS post.

Unknown Speaker 53:50

S J.

Unknown Speaker 53:53

S. J Trump Thompson Bill mom Tay. The Instagram handle is call me SJ dot the letters. Fat trans history was made last month.

Unknown Speaker 54:09

So So body on nutrition made this post about SJ.

Unknown Speaker 54:15

So basically, did you know this is a post? Did you know On May 24 2023 SJ Thompson Belmonte made fat trans history by winning a three year long battle with the state of Oregon after being denied coverage for top surgery because they are fat. If SJ were thin, it would have taken only a matter of months to have surgery. Instead it took them three years. They contacted several advocacy organizations are mostly dismissed and ignored. SJ started this fight back in the dark not knowing if there would be light at the end of the tunnel. There wasn't a single legal precedent in the entire state of Oregon unlikely most of most of the nation with Sj and their lawyer did not know what to expect. Now their story in case can offer hope

Unknown Speaker 55:00

guidance for other fat trans people facing medical discrimination. For those of you who don't know, SJ, they're a special part of the fat eating disorder community, they have given us so much and now they need our help. They will finally have surgery this summer and will take three to four weeks off to recover. Let's support SGA by raising money to help cover their bills and recovery needs. And there's links to donate to SJ

Unknown Speaker 55:27

s j, is multiple, multiple marginalized and is low income.

Unknown Speaker 55:33

And it's studying another How the fuck they did that. The tenacity to

Unknown Speaker 55:43

can you imagine?

Unknown Speaker 55:45

To do that for three years? Wow. So anyway, anyway, and I'm not saying everyone has to do that everyone has a capacity and I'm not saying you know, like, take on the legal system. And I mean, shit, you're like, Oh, I

Unknown Speaker 56:01

just got stomped out, I should calm down. But you know, you deserve health care is the thing is what I'm trying to say is you deserve health care. And if you're not getting it, reach out for support from from fat advocacy groups, and know that what you're experiencing is not okay. Right? You can say, depending on your situation, you can say I don't want to be weighed or my weight is not up for discussion today. Or I have someone come in and into the office with you and help act as your advocate and let you know, just you know, I just hope fat people are given health care. Fuck, it's

Unknown Speaker 56:45

fucking pieces of shit. I swear. But you know what, like I said mentioned I was on this training for the New England public health care training. So it was healthcare providers. The comments apart from one idiot called Catherine who was like, I'm gonna play devil's advocate. Literally, Catherine was saying, I'm gonna play devil's advocate twice. Catherine said that and I was like, fuck off. I was watching the recording of it. And so I wasn't there to be like, Catherine, Catherine, shut your fucking mouth. But guess what? Lots of people said Catherine Shut your fucking mouth. And lots of people on the call in the comments. Were saying yes. And they were they were they were agreeing and they were saying really awesome things in response. Like, like, they know what they were talking about in regards to anti fatness. Ah, it was amazing. It was amazing. So that gave me hope. Anyway, anyway, I just I just put that link for SJ in the in for the show notes. So if you'd like to donate to S J. I think last time I checked they were kind of like maybe halfway on to the girl.

Unknown Speaker 57:54

Did you link go? S j Why did you move that link?

Unknown Speaker 57:59

Maybe they got that maybe they reached that goal?

Unknown Speaker 58:02

No, they didn't reach that goal goal. Maybe they just felt that. For me feels it probably feels fucking shit to ask for money. Right?

Unknown Speaker 58:12

I'm going to link a link to their directly to their to their GoFundMe. They're at 4496 of their $6,000 goal.

Unknown Speaker 58:21

They're going to get surgery on July 6. Imagine having to live

Unknown Speaker 58:27

not getting surgery in a body that doesn't feel like you when your counterpart your thin counterpart could get that surgery in three months. Theoretically.

Unknown Speaker 58:40

How unjust is that? Are right so I'm gonna leave it here if you enjoyed the show you want to support me go to co feeling in the

Unknown Speaker 58:51

show notes direct link for the show notes for his family.com forward slash 172 for all the links to everything I'm going to make this into a

Unknown Speaker 59:00

Instagram post so if you want a reminder of the shit that I said, of these, these these great studies and people's and Lala lib lib and my kind of what beliefs do you have about anti fatness question and the categories all of that I'm going to put in an Instagram post. My Instagram is great. If you're not on Instagram.

Unknown Speaker 59:23

You should go on Instagram. Just follow me. If you are on Instagram, you're not following me. What are you doing with your life? Come on now. I'm great on Instagram to follow because I also share fucking fannish memes. It's one of my favorite parts about Instagram. I've got pins and needles in my arms. My desk is too high. And so when I'm typing, I get pins and needles in my arms. I should but I'm only sitting my desk when I do my podcast so it's not a big deal. So whatever.

Unknown Speaker 59:49

Anyway, we're still talking Okay, bye, God. All right. See you in a while. Oh, alligator, stay fierce, fatty. Goodbye. Bye.

Episode 171 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 171, Fat sex and overcoming anti fat bias.

Speaker 1 0:24

Hello, welcome to this episode. I'm super excited to have you here. So today, we have a replay episode for you, which is this episode about fat shacks. And actually, this episode came out originally, December 2022. So you probably didn't listen to it. And if you did, it's probably gone out your mind. Honestly, I swear, I do my due podcast episodes. And I'm like, I I have no idea what I've spoken about. And I'm the one doing the speaking and the research and all that other stuff. So presumably, you don't remember as well. I don't know, maybe there's some hardcore fist fight II podcast fans out there out there. And like, Yes, I remember video from 2020 to December the seventh, whatever it was. So quick update about kofi. And the reason why I'm doing a replay is that to make the podcasts continue to be sustainable, when I say continue, stop still having sustainable because it costs money, it costs money to run a podcast, even if someone has, you know, got a little podcast, you know, and they do the editing themselves is still costs, minimum couple of 100 bucks, I reckon to, you know, to record and then you have to pay for software to upload and distribute it and yeah, and then the time it takes anyway. So I have guesstimated that it takes a minimum $170 That's a really low guestimation per episode, which equals 6680 a month. And so if we want to have four episodes a month, then I would like to get my Kofi donations to 680. And so where are we right now. So we've been doing this for a few months, a couple of weeks ago, we were at 29 active subscriptions. So people 29 people donating with a value of $185 a month. Now as of today, which is June 7 2023. We're at 32. So that's an increase of three with a monthly donation of $210. So we've gone from 185 200, to under 10, something's going up and scale it up. Oh, my goodness, this is amazing. But it's only enough for one episode a month. And that's yeah, that's just paying my paying my people not paying me. And, you know, it's probably not even covering how much how much I pay probably, anyway, whatever. So if you enjoy this content, and you appreciate fat liberation stuff, and you want to support fatty Moo, then go to the link in the show notes and go to Kofi and become a subscription and you'll get free stuff, which is amazing. As a thank you for doing that. And yeah, I'm seriously. You know, we're talking about this about how we can support the show, but this is, you know, I'm getting really kind of real now of, you know, how, how long can I keep doing this without getting paid. And so a lot will be on 171 episodes, so 171 times, what did we say? 100 And let's just say 100 and 170 a show. So it's cost me to make the podcast $29,000 minimum, that's just, that's not my labor. That's not my time or research or anything. So that's just producing it, editing it. So $29,000 Now, I don't want to try and recover that $29,000 It's not going to happen. It's not gonna happen. Unless you got $1,000 in your pocket Anyway, give it to me. You know, because we do the podcast for at least a labor of love. Right? You know, I just love chatting with you. You don't say much back though. Hello, hello, anyone out there? You know, it's a labor of love and but also, I've been getting real kind of day and dirty with finances and you know, looking at my goals and stuff. And although I would love to keep producing episodes for free, yeah, I can't. So if this is important to you for activism and liberation is important to us this content is important to you consider donating $5 $10 $20 a month, that would be amazing. Because I don't want to stop having to do this. Having to do this doing this. Do you want me to stop? I don't know. Maybe some people are like, yeah, Jesus, we've had 170 episodes Shut up. Yeah. And I was talking, I was talking with somebody in London. And she's, you know, saying, Oh, my goodness, you give so much away for free to people. And your Instagram posts are so detailed and meaty. And I was like, yeah, yeah, they, actually, and that's because of the show that I'm doing that research. Yeah, so anyway, I'm gonna stop talking about that. Because you probably bored of hearing me talk about this, this stuff. So let's, let's get into the episode. This was filmed recorded. Three years ago. Oh, my goodness. So I mentioned things from 2020. Like, we're in we're in? What was it? We were in isolation and isolation, isolation, sequestering knowing that the water was Oh, my goodness, how quickly our brains forget this stuff. What was it called? Isolation? Fuck, I can't remember anyway, when you hear the word in the podcast, because I listen to it again. And you'll say you hear me saying I haven't had sex in a year? I had sex like I know a few months ago. So, so yay for me. Yeah. And it's a good episode. And you know what, actually, this episode was shared by Matt McGorry, which is only a friend of the show, not friend of the show, friend of the friend of the fats for under the fat Matt McGorry who played Asher in How to Get Away with Murder, and was in oranges, a new black and was in other things. Absolute would love to date him. So if you're listening. Yeah, he shared he shared this episode. And I was like, Oh, my God McGorry with his millions of followers sharing my shit and that he shared a clip where I'm talking about shit stained underwear and like stinky assholes. And so anyway, listen to the episode. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for listening me. Listen to me talk about the show. Thank you for your support. I really appreciate it. And if you can't donate, if you can leave a review. That would be amazing. All right, let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about the birds. That can be let's talk about sex. Let's talk about sex. Remember that song? From the 90s and the other song? Right said Fred. Do remember that one. I'm too sexy for my shirt. too sexy for my shirt. Too sexy yet hurts. I remember that being on. Maybe like Top of the Pops or something. And my mum being there and me. Like just the word sex me being like, oh is Arizona. Yeah, so let's talk about fat sex today. And things that go around fat sex. I've been watching rewatching Game of Thrones. The HBO most watched TV show in history, I think. Anyway, I watched I watched season one when it first came out. But then I didn't watch lots of the seasons. And then I stopped picked it up again, like season six or seven or five or something. Anyway, and so I was just like, You know what, I need to go back and watch it all because you know, cuz, you know, it's I've been binging it. I've been binging it. Let me see where I'm at. on season six. I've watched six seasons of Game of Thrones in I don't know maybe a couple of weeks. Couple of days, a couple of hours. Who knows. Anyway, so Game of Thrones. Lots of tips, right? Women's tips and not enough Dix. I saw that was a dick today. I saw addict today this I saw redact today, you know, but the rest of them, they haven't been real. Anyway. And I just got it just got me thinking about tickets. And as you do think about pets,

Speaker 1 10:18

all of the people in the show that most of the people in the, in the show in leading roles are stereotypically attractive. And there's this use of, you know, wiping out the baps as a way to kind of make it you know, it's like, very violent, you know, sex and, you know, incest and all sorts of different things like that. And so yeah, but that's how they don't have knobs that didn't have knobs. It's not, it's not, it's not. Anyway, the tips that they show are stereotypically, the tits, that society tells us are good tips so that they're not saggy tits. They're not tits with inverted nipples are not tips, that one goes one way one goes the other. They're not tips where one is bigger than the other. They're not tips where they're teeny tiny tips. They're all stereotypically quote unquote, attractive tips. And this is getting past getting, I'm getting annoyed with it. I'm getting annoyed with it. And anyway, watching and watching six seasons of Games of Thrones, it's not good for my mental health anyway, because lots of violence in it. I had a nightmare about beheading. And yeah, and it just made me think about attractiveness. And why is it that in the show, like the show has a fatphobia problem anyway, like the fat characters? There's a lot of like, Oh, look at that one. He's fat and oh, look, he's so fat eats food and shit like that, which is, you know, for boring. But then sometimes the good characters are fat, but there is kind of like they're fat, but at least they're kind of noble, you know, but they're not. They're not. They're not attractive, and fat and good. They're not a main character who's fat and, and the Savior. They're kind of quietly, maybe good, but they're kind of making up for their fatness. Anyway, so this whole thing got me thinking about attractiveness, and my view of attractive nurse and being fat and my history of, of fat sex, having sex as a fat person, and what that means and what fat people's attractiveness means in society. And I've noticed a difference in, in my life, after learning to love and accept my body and learning about fat politics, a difference in my sex life, in my romantic life, in my whole life, basically, my whole life, some things have become harder, but ultimately more rewarding, you know, setting boundaries and ending relationships, making new relationships, actually, it's hard, right. But one of the things that took a while for me to see a clear difference in is sex. And a couple of reasons. I were it was in long term relationships. And, and, and I just didn't have the opportunity to have shipped tons of sex. Very sad. And also, I think this is a very sticky and tricky subject because our desirability is so tied up with our worth as human beings and being seen as desirable, or sexually attractive, seems to be, in society's terms, a very, very, very important quality. So the two areas I want to look at are the way that we perceive our own fat bodies, and the way that other people perceive our fat bodies, so other people, maybe our romantic partners, fuck buddies, other people in society, people that you're not maybe having sex with, but I got I got kind of interested in this concept of fat not being a sexual preference after watching a video a year ago by the fat sex therapist, Sonali rachet, WA and Sonali made a video called fat phobia is not a sexual preference, and what Sonali said In this video, I'm gonna link to this video and all of the other like articles and stuff that I mentioned in this video in the show notes, you can find the show notes at face value.com, forward slash 059. For Episode 59, if you ever forget which episode we're talking about, and you want the show notes, just go to forward slash podcast and you'll find them. So Sonali says, sexual orientations and sexual fetishes are not sexual preferences, sexual preferences are not hardwired, they are really socially conditioned, we have some control of the fluidity of those preferences. And also, don't hide behind the excuse of sexual preference. Name it for what it is fat phobia. People are not hardwired to be never attracted to XYZ people. So fat people or black people, or trans people, or whatever, people are not hardwired to not be attracted to those people. Society informs us of who we should be attracted to, and where certain bodies falls on this hierarchy that society has created, which is totally made up. Right. I like to think about it I always like to think about it as through the lens of art. I've mentioned before that I studied illustration at university and, and one of the things that that really stuck with me is is what is art? And you know how some people are like, how can that be art? It's just a, you know, white square on a white background. That's not art. And it's like, well, yeah, it is. Because art is something that causes a reaction, even if it's negative, or positive or whatever, that's causing a reaction with you. So then it's art, right? It doesn't matter if you don't like it. And so it's all subjective. Someone else might come to this white square on a white background and say, Oh, my God, this is inspired. I need it incredible. Someone else's like, this is bullshit. And, and so there's no kind of police our police that says, This is our or this isn't our and yes, like, you can be more skilled in the art of mark making, and making realistic depictions of things. But anyway, I always like to think about it like that. So, so fat phobia is not a sexual preference. Watch this video from Sonali and it's it's, it's really interesting. It's really interesting. Our preferences are not made in a vacuum, society viewing fat bodies as an attractive. No, no, that's not everyone. But overall, it's pretty agreed upon that smaller bodies are more attractive in society in general. And there's obviously lots of exceptions to that and lots of people who don't agree with that for many different reasons. So something that Caleb Luna says, Caleb wrote, I'm going to link to this wrote, treating my friends like lovers, the politics of desirability, I'm going to link to that. And what Caleb says is our desire and desirability is not just about who we do, or want to have sex with or who, or how often people want to have sex with us. It informs how we treat people in their larger world. So this is, this is big stuff, right? You know, our desirability or how how much we think that people other people find us attractive informs how we are treated in the world. And if you are seen in society as more attractive, or if you're seen as ugly, then you have more or less social capital. That makes sense that makes sense. Another thing I want to share with you is written a piece written by Harry Ziad, and the piece is called Three reasons dating attraction and desire are always political. So in this article, a quote from Jamal T. Lewis is a quote from Jamal T. Lewis desire is a cognitive and an emotional phenomenon informed by something and we repeat that desire is a cognitive and emotional phenomenon informed by something.

Speaker 1 19:52

And then it continues. They explained in an interview with me, which is an agitation backed up by science, the article continues, for instance, in a study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior entitled, is sexual racism, really racism, the researchers found that racist attitudes were associated with weight racial slash sexual preferences, suggesting that racism informs sexual desires. And at the end of the piece, I'd argue that oppressions most effective tool is in systematically making marginalized individuals feel unworthy and deserving of their treatment so that they will be less inclined to fight. So society, the structure, and the systems in society tell us that fat bodies are bad for a number of reasons. And one of those ways that they are bad if they are not sexually attractive. And so, as a fat person, we live in a society where on the whole, our bodies were told that they're not attractive. And so how does that affect us? And how does that affect those who might date us or be with us or want to have sex with us or, or be friends with us even? And the answer is, in a massive way, if you're a fat person, and you've been inclined to have sex and be in the dating world and stuff, I'm sure you've you've got examples of you know, you got stories. It's owl I bet. Yeah. Now this is an awesome visor article. I think. Murray, Southern Spina. Rotate. Yeah, yeah. Just as a top of my head. Yeah, so the article again, I'm gonna link it fat phobia exists, and it's especially bad in the bedroom. So I'm going to read a little quote from this. It can also show up in the bedroom, quoting fatphobia in life, and it will it can also show up in the bedroom, it could also show up in the bedroom, from the person I nearly hooked up with who asked, Is it true that fat girl smelled like cheeseburgers down there to a dude who told my friends to guide him in? Because I don't think I'll be able to find it through the flab. There's no doubt that weight bias can penetrate even the most intimate of settings. Fat people have to navigate a dating pool that often feels saturated with folks who believe that they are quote, settling for us unquote. Who wants to non consensually fetishize our bodies or who assume we should be grateful for any attention we receive and abusers because they believe it's their right to do so. Of course plenty of fat people can and do have amazing fulfilling glorious sex and relationships. Eventually, I certainly did steal the stock the below storage provide proof that fatphobia doesn't discriminate when it comes to the places it'll show up. And then Marie shares stories that people have shared. One of the stories that really resonated with me, they're all like, holy shit. That one that resonated resonated with me, it was from Rose 38 rows 38 says there was a guy I slept with, may have even dated him for a while, who told me fat girls are better in bed because they have nothing to offer a man so they would go all the way. Like they would bend over backwards and do nasty things because they are ugly, and no one wants them. They used to say because our thighs touch that we would have tighter vaginas just making me feel like my only reason to exist was to pleasure someone. I was about 19 or 20. When this happened to me, I really felt quite worthless at that point. Like no matter what I liked, or who I stood for, no one would see me for who I was. Instead, I would only be seen as a sexual object. Very early on, I learned that there were men who would sleep with me in secret, but never date me. And then I knew that my price to pay was to be easy. We truly deserve more. I wish I had learned earlier that all they wanted was just to use me but it's okay. I learned from those experiences and I'll never go back. So that was from Rose 38 in the vice article that that really spoke to me about it really resonated with me because it was like that's, you know, a lot of my personal experiences before learning that it's okay to be fat. So I always wanted to date people who were stereotypically attractive to, I believe that it would raise my attraction levels to be with someone who was stereotypically attractive. And so I I probably wouldn't have dated fat people. I'm trying to think if I ever did, yeah, maybe a couple. But I would want to be, they would have to be showing to the world that they were attractive in other ways. Like, you know, maybe they were, you know, masculine. So maybe they were tall, and maybe they had a beard, and maybe they make cetera, et cetera. So I remember one time when I was 17, and I was getting off the school bus. And my abuser, boyfriend, who was 30 was there waiting for me to meet me from school? And one of my school friends got off the bus. And I was like, oh, there's my boyfriend. And he was like, you're with him? How did you get with him? And instead of being offended that he thought that I was so ugly that I could get with someone who was conventionally attractive. I was like, proud, because it was like, Well, yeah, obviously, I can get with someone like that, because I'm amazing, obviously, that I didn't think that but you know, that's kind of like how I took it of, of he was a trophy to me. And even though He abused me in every way imaginable, he was attractive. So you know, I was so lucky to be with him. And I accepted that he would say abusive things about my body, because I believed them to be true. And so when he complained, saying, Why do your tits look like that? Why do you have saggy tits? I would be like, apologizing for my body. I want to go back right now and just like, teleport, and just go and punch him in the face. So I would have sex with people way before I wanted to prove that I had value because I could please them and prove that someone wanted me. And I wanted them to fall in love with me because I had sex with them. And it would mean that they had overlooked my fatness. But they did it because I had so much more to give because I was I was having sex with them. And this is a lesson I learned very young. So in my neighborhood, there was a boy that that would come and visit his grandma. And he lives his grandma lived opposite me. Daniels when my first boyfriend and so I'd be his girlfriend, but also there was a girl that lived two doors behind him called genuine Rogowski. Jenny was blond and thin. And so he would swap between the two of us. I mean, there was no other boy, I guess, because there was no other boys our age around. So he would like dump me and go out with her and then dump her and go out with me. And I would always say to him, Daniel, you know, I will do more things with you than Jenny's. Jenny won't like kiss you because we were kissing each other. So this is when I was like 10 Yeah, about nine or 10. We'd like kiss. And so to get him more and more interested, I would say, Oh, I'm let's try this new kiss that the kids in the street were talking about. And it was like, you know, do the washing machine case where you like, roll your tongue around each other's mouths and the rainbow kiss. Oh my god, this is so disgusting. Skip ahead. 30 seconds if you don't want to hear someone disgusting, but the rainbow case was when you would you would stand close to each other and then you would spit into each other's mouths. And the rainbow bit would be like the spit going up into the air and then into their mouth. And then the other would reciprocate. That would be the rainbow because I'm telling you I bet you some adult was like, you know, some kids was like, What's kissing mean? And then someone said, it means spitting into each other's mouths. And then some kid heard that and was like, This is what kissing is and then kids did it. You know? That wasn't I remember doing that and being like, Oh, that's so disgusting. But you know, if I do it, then Daniel won't don't dump me. He dumped me in the end. Who knows who he ended up with? Not not not me, obviously, and not generally Gaskey. But, yeah, so with all partners, I believed that it was my job to sexually satisfy them and to avoid having to inconvenience them with my wants, needs and desires to the point of about 95% of the orgasms that I had were fake.

Speaker 1 29:47

If a guy tried to pleasure me one, I wouldn't be comfortable because by felt like I didn't deserve the pleasure. Because, you know, he was doing me a favor by having said Took me two, I believe that he was probably feeling disgusted that he was having to pleasure me. And three, I wanted them to believe that I was so easygoing, and that I, that I was so like a porn star that I would fake and all the orgasm in like 2.5 seconds. And so if a guy was like, if a guy was interested in making sure that I had fun, I wouldn't let him because I'd be like, you know, he'd look at me and I'm like, Oh, my God, I just had an orgasm. And he's like, okay, okay, well, that was easy. And so it's kind of just contributed to this feedback loop of them thinking that they could make me come just by flopping their deck out, and I'll be like, Oh, my God, I just had none of them. And so then how hard would that be then for me to be like, Oh, actually, no, you have to do stuff. So I would constantly want to make up for the fact that that they had a defective partner by doing stuff I didn't necessarily want to do or making myself hypersexual for them. So you know, buying lingerie and constantly shaving my legs and shaving my our soul and going to sex classes to learn how to give great blow jobs and hand jobs and all sorts of things and being super feminine, and trying to portray myself as as weak and as little as possible to try and be this kind of porn star type person to make up for the fact that they had to have sex with a fat person. Now, most of my boyfriend's weren't, weren't like, Oh my God, you're fat. More is gross. I guess I'll have to have sex with you. It was only really that first one who behaved like that. And, and probably like some random guys in between who might have said comments and stuff like that, that kind of reinforced it. And society telling me constantly that being fat was really bad. And these poor guys oh my god, they're having to date these fat people. Oh, terrible, terrible life. To the point that I I would accept so I was doing all this stuff. Lingerie shaved asshole. We're going bleached ear holes, like, you know, porn star hair, all that type of stuff. And in return, I would. I would accept like a smelly Dick shit stained underwear and a couple of pumps and be thankful for it. And be like, oh, you know, great sex live. Yeah, like you might have been covered in his own shit. But this is a thing. This is a thing. Have you heard about this is a thing. Oh, it's called chef's OS. If you don't want to hear to somebody just disgusting. Do you know what if you don't want to hit something disgusting. You should probably just not listen to any episodes. What is ridiculous chefs ours right? So this is thing going around. The leaving going around. It's been around the SIS hat men that after they shit. They believe some of them believe that it would be gay to wipe their own ass. And it would be gay to wash their own ours in the shower. This is a thing. Google it. Chef's OS. There's loads of message boards about it and men being like your why would I touch my asshole because I'm not good. Oh, and you know, I'm not touching my mouse I was so I'll just let water run over it, you know, and hope the ship might fall off. And then there was this like one woman on there who's like, my boyfriend refuses to wipe his ass. And every time he comes over, he leaves shit stains in my bed. If we have sex, it absolutely reeks of shit. And I've spoken to him about it. And he he refuses or he says he forgets to wipe his arse. And what can I do? Like he's a nice guy. I don't want to break up with him. But you know, there's shit everywhere. And yeah, like I would I would accept that I would expect except that ship naturally because they're dealing with something as equivalently disgusting as shit. My body which is not true by the way. The sheriff's office is true, but the rest of it isn't. So, so when I learned about fat positivity and fat activism and all that type of stuff, I started to in In relationships in it, sexual encounters, ask for more. And that was either confusing for them, or annoying for them. The men I was picking anyway, so not all men are like this, obviously. But the types of men I might have been hooking up with. If they had said fat phobic things before we went to bed before, I wouldn't have been like, Oh, sounds like he's a bit of fat phobe? I don't think I should get with him. I'd be like, wow, you know, whatever. He's right. So now, I tend to, I say tend to because sometimes it still happens. I tend to not get into a situation where I would have sex with a fat phobe or would have sex with someone who thinks that my body is less, because it was it is fat. Because generally speaking, unless you'd like, you know, meet someone, you don't really talk and then you just have sex. Generally speaking, you can kind of get an idea about someone before you have sex. Not always, you know, sometimes people can be like, like the last guy I had sex with, like a year ago. So depressing. And he's someone dead. This quarantine has really got me bad. And I live in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, so I so I had sex with this guy. And before, I'm like, he's a pretty normal reasonable guy. And this motherfucker, this mother father, so when I saw I went around his house, right, in the light was I spent the evening during the evening, I made him come three times. I made him come three times. He was like, Oh my god. This is amazing. My turn for an orgasm, two minutes in. He says, hurry up. This motherfucker had his balls, dirt rained, and two minutes of the focus being on me. He's like, Oh, gone. Have you come? Yeah, it's been like 12 seconds. And I was just like, No, no, no, no. No, thank you didn't see him again. Because I was like, What the fuck? Before I would have just been like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yep, just had an orgasm, faked it because he would have been putting pressure on me to, to perform or whatever. So So now, now understanding that there's to, you know, kind of like what we're talking about in this podcast, two things going on here. The two things being the way that we perceive our fat bodies, and the way that society perceives our fat bodies. And the way that I view it now is that my fat body is not a problem. However, a lot of the people that I will encounter when pursuing relationships, think that my body is a problem. And then that's a problem for me, because I am not going to be with someone who thinks that my body is a problem. Who thinks, oh, you know, I'll date because my, you know, like the, like Rose had said, Oh, maybe she's like, great in bed because she's fat. So she has to make up for being fat, or whatever, whatever they believe. Or maybe I'll just have sex well, but I won't be seen in public whether maybe I'll just, you know, I'll tell her that I want to pursue a relationship but i don't i just have sex and then see you later. Whatever it is, I that's not okay with me. Like, that's not okay. That is not okay for people to treat me like that. And people like that are out there. Absolutely. And unfortunately, most of the people who are in the dating world or the sex world or whatever it is a biased how fat phobic beliefs like deeply fat phobic beliefs that they don't want to examine. And, and say, Oh, it's just a preference. It's just a preference. And their preference is to non consensual li fetishize thin bodies to non consensually fetishize thin bodies. And like, Sonali says, just to not call it out and say, Yeah, I'm

Speaker 1 39:33

a fat phobe? Yeah, I'm just a fat phobe and genuinely, genuinely think that they were born and their brain had this preference implanted in there. That said, I will never be attracted to a fat body, no fat person on earth. Of all the billions people out there, not a single one could I ever possibly be attracted to? Like that's ridiculous. As redonk and this is not about forcing people to come and have sex with me, like, it's not about that. It's about people examining their biases, because we all have biases, right? So. So we've got about one side society, but then also are we going to internalize this this myth that society has created this rating system, this hierarchy of bodies that society has created, that most people will never benefit from? Right? So, you know, all these different shows or you know, in society say, Oh, she's a 10? Or how attractive Are you in a scale of one to 10? Most people are not going to be rated a 10. Right? And so, for everyone who is a nine and below, that system is not good for them. So why are we buying into this system? It's literally just made up, it's made up, right? We just said, okay, you know, in our society, we think this type of body, this amount of muscles on a man this high on a man, this hair length on a women woman, this breast size on a woman, you know, this is optimal, but why? Why? It's like art, remember, it's like art, it's, it's subjective. And so, are we going to say yes, that system that society has devised, which benefits people who are already in power? Well, I'm going to bind to that system. And I agree with it 100% And because of that, I'm going to accept less in my life now I don't like it now. Not interested. No, thank you. And that quotes that one quote, I'm gonna read it again from Harry Ziad Ziad, I'd argue that oppression is most effective tool is in systematically making marginalized individuals feel unworthy undeserving of their treatments, so they will be less inclined to fight it, if we are beaten down because we think that our fat belly and our saggy tits and whatever else, our fat bodies are bad and disgusting. When someone says your body is bad and disgusting, we will probably say, Yeah, or say, well, that's not very nice, but they can't it's kind of true, versus telling them to fuck off, which is what we should be doing, you know, and it's not it's not our fault, right? It's not it's not anyone's fault that we internalize this stuff. And we believe it. Like it's not our job to, to change the world for for everyone. And because we are the ones who were suffering from this, too, right. It's totally normal to have internalized these things. Because it's so pervasive, it's everywhere. And like I'm saying on Game of Thrones, I'm like, Jesus, why can't we just get this princess who is fat? And people are like, Oh, she's so beautiful. And it would be so amazing, but they just don't do that. And that's just one of a billion shows, and messages that is out there in society that says, These bodies are sexually attractive, and these bodies are not sexually attractive. So where are you at with this? How's it going for you? Uh, you were having sex with people who were fat phobes you were someone who's a fat five. Oh, that would suck. Most people probably are because most people are fat and you know, really fat phobic? Are you compensating in your relationships for your fat body? Are you able to say the way that that society views fat bodies is fucked up? And I'm not buying into it? Some questions for you have no think in your brain. And you're amazing Bahrain. And if you want the links to all of the different articles that I spoke about in this episode, go to first fatty.com forward slash 059 for the show notes or you could probably just look in the scroll down on your screen. If you're watching listening to this on somewhere. Somewhere there'll be links Okay, so thank you for hanging out with me today and talking about sex baby and Timberland boots on blini up but did you hope it y'all don't do boo boo ba Lu me. I appreciate it. I appreciate you being here and I'd be getting lots of sex and juicy orgasms if you want them. And no sex if you don't want it. And you're just feeling good. You Feeling good? All right, I'll see you in the next episode. See you later. Crocodile Stay Fit Sphatik.

Episode 170 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 170, The full NEDA controversy explained. Let's do it.

Welcome to this episode fatty and fatty allies so excited to have you here we have a breaking story. This news reporting is June 120 2220 23. But who knows of the year and shit that's happening today yesterday day before cast. And it's been it's been happening for a while. So we're talking about NEDA, which is a National Eating Disorder Association. For a do, I haven't done this in a while couple of reviews. I'm going to read out reviews for the podcast if you liked the podcast, but you cannot afford to support me on kofi K. Oh, FYI. Then leave a review. I've not been telling people to leave a review. And I've noticed that since the last time I've done this, I've only got two new reviews. It's funny, like when I asked you to do that stuff, you do it right. Not always but if I don't mention it, then you know, people don't think about it, obviously. Because why would they? Anyway, two new reviews want to read them to you. One is from a gear. And it's so strange username. Essential listening five stars. Quote, I appreciate this podcast so much. I love how Vinny really digs into the science. The pop culture commentary is fantastic as well. Helping to put words to why some of these depictions of fat people are so damaging keep up the fantastic work. Thank you, AG. Agape they are from the United States of a moral whore. Is this one I didn't get their username. Let me find that username. This one's from nine a lane in the Yamato stars of America. Five stars I look forward to each episode and appreciate the regularity as a POC person of color. I really appreciate your awareness of racial ethnic intersectional perspective. I laugh out loud each time you say you take my money to each bad diet program. You want to try it I feel that smiley winky face. Thank you so much. Nine, Elaine, I really appreciate that and both of you for listening and leaving reviews. You were the months nuts as someone left in a review. I think as I said just write a review and say the months nuts let's see let me What can I say? Hey, listen, leave a review and say something like a venue so good. She makes my tip sweat or something. Or it gets you get my venue so good. It makes my makes my fanny wet or something like that. I didn't know. I don't know you'd like doing that. And if you could do you think you could know they probably have a swear word censored out they probably reject a review. Anyway, the Mac's nuts got through so gets nuts could be referring to peanuts, right? Okay, so we have a lot of stuff to do today. If you appreciate my work go to the link in the bio for Koh Phi and become a subscription for $5 a month and or not. Or you can do it for 10 or 20 whatever or not you can just listen and just listen. Okay, so we're gonna go through the history of NEDA, anti fatness and NEDA firing of this the CEO AAP guidelines ambassadors and lived experience Task Force union busting the Chatbot. Tessa calling community members liars and ignoring them questions around conflict of interest and alternative organizations to support and follow or hate a lot of things. Links for everything we talked about in the show notes the show notes first party.com forward slash 170. First party.com forward slash 170 for episode 170. Got lots of links. Yeah, so let's just do it. Well, remember faffing about let's do it. Okay, so the history of NEDA is according to Wikipedia says, In 2001 Eating Disorder Awareness and Prevention, which is an organization and the American anorexia bulimia Association merged to form the National Eating Disorders Association. At the time Eating Disorder Awareness and Prevention, and the American anorexia bulimia Association were, quote, the largest and longest standing eating disorders, prevention and advocacy organizations in the world. And so NEDA is the largest in the States. Maybe in the world. brief history lesson everyone Yeah, my new most well known, if you Google eating disorders, new is going to be the one that comes up. So NEDA. So a lot a lot of people have had good experiences with NEDA. And a lot of people have needed tattoos, even basically, what they do is an American nonprofit organization devoted to preventing eating disorders, providing treatment referrals and increasing the education and understanding of eating disorders, weight and body image. Yeah. And NEDA has come under fire in the almost from the beginning. But recently, even more so. As we know, with eating disorder treatment, it's a very white and very young thing, women, right. It's very focused on those with the most privilege, even though typical anorexia, which is anorexia and people who have who are not fat is not the most widespread eating disorder, yet. It feels like a lot of times, eating disorder associations are focused only on that. And that's the education that we get. And then when they're talking about BDD, binge eating disorder, they kind of blame it as a fat people or overeating thing versus PE D is actually a restrictive condition and also, eating disorder and also atypical anorexia is really prevalent in people in bigger bodies. Atypical anorexia, atypical just means anorexia in someone in a bigger bottle body that like it's so weird, even though anorexia is more likely to be found in people in big people with bigger bodies, fat bodies, and it is to be found in people with smaller bodies. So NEDA has not always been great for people who are marginalized and it and also it has helped people and a lot of people appreciate the work that NEDA has done. So I want to start off with the anti fatness and I want to start with a post from Reagan Chasteen we were in health care her her substack if you're not subscribed, you should you can get it for like for free and also $20 a year. Well worth the money. Reagan's post eating disorders support chatbot promotes weight, eating disorder support chatbot promotes weight loss. And this is from Reagan, just Dame and so Reagan talks about the history. So Anita has had a long history of either ignoring hire white people, as well as others with marginalized identities or treating us poorly needed tends to focus their attention on thin white sis girls and young women to the exclusion of others. And so need to try to I don't know if they did, they brought on monks, I don't even know did it everything finished if I can send it. They they try to do better. Um, maybe they did. I don't know. They brought on a fat CEO. Chevy's Turner. So Chavez Turner, founder of the binge eating disorder Association, so beador. And so quoting from Reagan, it looked like they might be turning things around in turn in terms of intersectional work, so they had a fat CEO. During this time, I was asked to become an official ambassador, then. Chavez was similar. Some are some are rarely fired without explanation. And I public publicly that left the organization. Since there, NEDA has faced a significant amount of controversy for their actions around highway people. And we're going to go into that now. So Chevy's from what I can tell, I'm not doing research and Chevy's I'm trying to find out she veces I presume she's white. She's white, white appearing. So I was wondering if I might be wrong on that. Cuz I'm thinking, you know, they would have been doing better if they also hired someone for the CEO position which was

someone with with other marginalized identities, I don't know. Anyway, so we this was this happened in 2020, right? So I have a post here on Facebook from the Center for body trust. And it's an open letter to NEDA. And so I'm gonna read it so dear NEDA, we are writing to you regarding the recent firing of Chavez Turner. We are concerned about what this means about the priorities and processes within the need organization. We were shocked and disturbed to learn that she visa was let go, that Anita had absorbed her years of creation and labor including weight stigma awareness week week, and that she veces integrity is in question. As a national organization, you have allowed the eating disorder field to proliferate without the inclusion of marginalized voices. Despite the clear data that reports that black Indigenous and People of color as well as trans and non binary people have high rates of eating disorders that are invisible alized by the field, they do not have access to affirmative effective care, and they do not have access. The eating disorder field continues to allow a debate as to whether weight management can be part of eating disorder treatment, which harms those and fat bodies and allows ongoing support for a dietary industry that is complicit in exacerbating eating disorders. The board is complicit in harm not by not maintaining a staff that is truly representative, and can steer the organization towards advocating for all people who have eating disorders. The board is abdicating responsibility by not seeking counsel and training that would help you address the variable biases, which have kept you from truly serving people. Every time you silence a treatment perspective, you quote, disagree with you silence a large group of IDI sufferers with that lived experience. You have not been imbued with the authority to do this, yet you do. Your ethics and integrity are on the line. It is in fact this idea that those of us with dominant identities will lose something if we acknowledge our privilege and blind spots that enables us and it enables and proliferates harm, we must allow our spheres of learning and influence to challenge us in order to expand Chevy's Tanner is someone who lives this and is capable of steering an organization towards the change that will keep it viable, relevant and can help address the years of harm that have preceded this moment. The future of NEDA and the need of boards should be size diverse and include people with marginalized identities. The board and need a leadership need ongoing dei training, consultation and mentoring. Yes, if you are in the way of progress, you need to step down, instead of firing those who those deemed outliers like Chavez, who are actually leading with a skill set that can weather disagreements, celebrate a difference and work relationally with organizations towards necessary change. We are eager for your accountability and for your plans to rectify this harm. We have also signed a letter drafted by the community that detail specific calls to action by hashtag amplify melanated voices and trans folks fighting eating disorders. That should steer your next steps we request notice of receipt of this letter and a clear action plan from NEDA moving forward. And that sorry, I'm just saying Hillary can can have a Dana Sturtevant Be Nourished LLC. I mean, those names are so familiar to me, and I've never read them out loud. And I do. I'm struggling to pronounce things. So they fucked up. They have been fucking up. So in January 2023, American Association of Pediatrics pediatricians will soon find out. American Academy of Pediatrics pediatrics released the clinical practice guideline for the evaluation and treatment of children and adolescents with Oh word on January the ninth. So I'm going to read a quote from SELF magazine about this. So basically, these are the people who were saying, we treat children, pediatricians and this is how you should treat fat children. Okay, so quote from SELF magazine. Some pediatricians support the organization's aggressive weight loss recommendation for kids and their families. The AAP has also garnered some extremely strong criticism for three recommendations in particular, so these are recommendations. Pediatricians should refer kids age six and up with Oh words, to quote intensive health behavior and lifestyle treatment with the goal of reducing their BMI for ages two to 19. fatness is defined as divide is defined as having a BMI between the 85th and 95th percentile on the CDC growth charts and fat and the other Oh word is defined as having a BMI at or above 95th percentile. Pediatricians should offer weight loss drugs to adolescents age 12 and up, pediatricians should offer a referral for weight loss surgery evaluation to teens aged 13 and up with severe Oh word defined for ages two to 19 as having a BMI at or above 120% of the 95th percentile in the CDC gross chops. To be clear these new recommendations go against the AAPs own 2016 guidelines in preventing Oh word and eating disorders in adolescence, which told pediatricians and parents to discourage dieting and the use of diet pills promote body positive positive body image not body dissatisfaction and focus on health promoting habits rather than weight. There is also no mention of weight loss surgery in those recommendations. The 2023 guidelines also go against evidence cited in 2020 2016. That dieting defined as calories restriction with the goal of weight loss is a major risk factor for eating disorders. And that's actually that it's actually counterproductive to weight management. So they've gone against their own advice and they're telling pediatricians to get kids who are aged 12 and up to have weight loss loss drugs and 13 and up to have weight loss surgery. And cages kids aged six and up to engage in intensive health behavior and lifestyle treatment. So that happened. I was thinking about doing a podcast on it. And I was just like, yeah, just the whole thing is just gross. And I don't want to so in response, you know, many people and publications came out and said, This is fucked up. And the eating disorder, eating disorder charities. Organizations all came out and said This is fucked up. This is going to cause eating disorders apart from NEDA. So this is what Anita said, you just stayed quiet. And this is their first post on Instagram. Let's read it out and people were you know, they were not mincing their words, you know, the eating disorder organizations they were saying this is you know, this is wrong. This is not evidence based this is gonna cause harm. The it came the so AP released their guidelines January 9. Nothing from NEDA post on February 3. This says I'm gonna read out NEDA shares position on AAP guidelines. Bear in mind, this is an eating disorder. Charity. Okay. What should their response be? There should no response should be Whoa, aap That shit is fucked up. What were you thinking? Let's work together immediately to fix this because you are going to kill children. These recommendations are so harmful and preposterous. Not evidence based, just steeped in bias that you should all just jump in the garbage. Okay, so that's the type of response that NEDA should have. So at NEDA, this is a response at NEDA. We take our role and responsibility as a patient advocacy organization seriously. And that means gathering all the information possible and engaging conversations before responding. By the way, this has been a month we believe the critical first response belongs to individuals with lived experience sharing personal stories and the impact of the messaging. And this is a by the way, at this point. People had been like screaming at NEDA. This is what we want. This is what we need. Please listen to us and NEDA has been like Lala fingers news. Don't want to listen to you. Now. They're saying we need to listen to the fat people. These voices need. voices need to be heard first, and we admire those who have brought the those memories forward with courage and vulnerability to highlight the impact of their ex perience is experiences to advocate for change. That's the statement.

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That's the statement. There is nothing it is nothing. Where is it saying? Whoa, this is fucked. The community was like, no, if you go in there so the links to all these posts are in the comments. Yeah, go read the comments. I mean, I'm just reading them. So one from Dr. Rachel Milner if you don't know Dr. Rachel, go follow Dr. Rachel Milna. On the Instagrams is, that's just the count Dr. Rachel and Milner with two L's who says, needed this statement is disappointing, but not surprising coming from your organization. This statement confirms what so many of us already know to be true. You believe fatness is a problem, you think supporting weight loss in kids is okay. And your concern as an organization is only for the very small percentage of people with low weight anorexia. Your circle spinning pile of words in the statement could not hide your core values as an organization. Given that you talk about screening and education of eating disorders in the document, here's a bit of education for you. Every single child who is exposed to any quote intervention in these guidelines is at risk for an eating disorder. Every one of them. Anytime a child or adolescent loses weight no matter what their size is, there needs to be concern for an eating disorder. If you plan to be, quote, collaborative partners in the quote, development and dissemination of anything in these guidelines. Please be clear that you are then quote, collaborative partners in causing eating disorders and putting kids mental and physical health in danger. Just be real with your followers about where you stand. Don't try to gaslight people into thinking that you that you are advocating for fat kids or fat kids with eating disorders. What's particularly sad to me is what that I'm guessing that your board and members of your advisory council had to sign off on this statement. It's so heartbreaking and infuriating that any one of them would do that. Body image with Bree says tell me you have no fat or marginalized folks on your board without telling me you don't have any fat or marginalized folks on your board. I second a Sharon Maxwell. Quote NEDA is an organization who states they have a seat at the table for all but it turns out they didn't check to see if the chair was inclusive for all bodies. Mm hmm. Yeah. So. So people will make a post saying Anita is is dogshit then Anita came out and said, okay, so imagine if you're NEDA, alright, we, this really harmful chick came out. And so we made this really milquetoast statement where we will just like, listen, to listen to people and, you know, anything so, okay, people are mad that we didn't say anything, people are mad. Or what should we do? What should we do? What should we do? People are mad. They'd said that we didn't say anything. We didn't say that. Putting kids in surgery and giving them drugs was bad. So oh, what should we do? You're thinking, we should say, hey, the AAP guidelines are bad. They were fucked up. This is what this is what needed then said April 13. We are issuing a statement in response to certain false claims and misrepresentation circling on social media. Okay, good stuff. We have been wrongly accused of having advanced knowledge and being supportive of the AAP clinical guidelines. To be clear these accusations are false. NEDA never consulted with nor were we consulted by the AAP concerning these guidelines. We like we like many of our peer organizations reckon recognized the tremendous potential harm of the guidelines Did you? Did you recognize these are the actions we've taken? January 21. After the guidelines were published, we quickly convened our clinical and research advisory councils and published a series of statements after extensive research. Okay, and then we heard statements. We met with AAP leadership to express January 23. We went and we met with AAP leadership to express our concerns, and you talk about the importance of forming a taskforce with eating disorder experts and asking for the implementation of the guidelines to be halted. were introduced, we introduced the AAP, aap and the Academy of eating disorders leader Ship, April 11, the implementation of the guidelines has been halted, and the first meeting of the AAP task force was held. April TBD, we plan to publish an English and Spanish version of a parent guide to help individuals and families navigate those, these conversations with their pediatrician knowing that armed with information parents can be an informed, active advocates and protectors of the health of their children. Sadly, in the age of social media, just publishing something makes it true in the minds of some people. By the by the way, this is a professional organization and that's how they're talking. We know the intelligence and passion of people in our community. Don't be misled, ask questions, require citation require citation and facts, verify before reacting. Let's focus on where we can create common good and where we can make an impact. We all as a community have a significant work ahead ahead of us. Let's turn our individual and collective energy into constructive engagement that creates the change that is so needed for now and always at NEDA. We are devoting all of our time, energy and resources to realize a realizing our mission, supporting individuals and families affected by eating disorders and serving as a catalyst for prevention cures and access to quality care. Let's read a few comments what people thought about that. Carly Stanfield, Hi, y'all probably know my account by now. I have been commenting on you a lot. Commenting on a lot of posts in the past few weeks, trying to make sense of the jumbled statements you have been putting out including the initial neutral stance in regards to the AAP guidelines. But I don't think this is the sole reason people are upset. I think this was the final straw for a lot of people. See, I live in a fat body. And over the course of my own recovery, I have seen firsthand how needed doesn't support people in fat bodies. I remember wondering why why you all partnered with airy, a company that only sells up to a size 2x. I remember wondering why I never saw people that looked like me on yours website, or Instagram. I remember feeling ashamed that a community that I once fit into and I was sin was no longer a place I fit because I was fat. I wrote an open letter to you all a few years ago, it's still on my Instagram addressing how those of us in fat bodies felt since then there have been there has been no change. Since then the her vote, there has only been more hurt. I followed you all for a decade, I've attended and spoken at multiple needle walks and events. I've donated money to yours organization. So I think when you can you all can put out a statement in less than 24 hours about some rumors. It's kind of a slap in the face. To those of us who have been asking for acknowledgement, the past few months, our feelings are valid. And all we're asking for is change, change that is backed up by science and those with lived experience. So I missed out a statement from NEDA. So there was another statement from NEDA being like, Ah, I guess it's, you know, like some, again, another crappy statement. And so then, because that didn't work, then people were saying, hey, this isn't why why the fuck is NEDA. Why the fuck is needed doing this? Why can't they just say this is abhorrent? And so then people were doing digging. And they found that needed, allegedly have been working with the AAP beforehand. Right. I'll show you. I'll read some things out to you about that. So then, so then within 24 hours of that coming out, this is neither statement of that's not true. Let's all come together and forget all of the bad stuff that I've done. And I'm just I'm going to go home looking at all of the responses that I had at the time when I grew up. These are good responses. Uncharted healing dot Mia, Anita, please read it's one. Effective eating disorder treatment requires trauma informed practices when we cause harm regardless of intent. We start by acknowledging that harm, we ask how we can utilize our privileges to do better and provide emotional retributions to those who've been harmed. defences responses are illuminating and truly disheartening. They're informative, and I thank you for this. It's all of the information many of us critical thinkers needed to solidify our instincts, deep, deep gratitude to the incredibly brave humans that found their strength to use our voices. They don't need followers, they don't need support. They have an army of incredible soldiers behind them fighting for one thing justice, think about the courage it required. Think about your own fear. It all starts here back to our collective trauma. It's 2023. I urge you to consider how and what you can learn from this experience. We have a long road ahead of us and people are dying in the process. So a lot of activists have been Talking about a bit about this eating disorder stuff. I'm not as much in the eating disorder field

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side of Instagram, I'm more into the fat but this is fat eating just sort of thing to the Shira rose. Sure Rosen Bluth. Quote people asked why the AAP AAP didn't consult with an IDI organization before they published their guidelines. okaying bariatric surgery and weight loss meds for children. Well, they did. They consulted with NEDA, who didn't say a damn thing against those guidelines. Let's make that crystal clear. And let's find this post from Sharon Maxwell. Show. Do you remember that? That show? I was gonna say Keeping Up With The Kardashians? It was with all that it was like 20 years ago. Ozzy Osbourne and Sharon Osbourne keeping up with the Osbornes was it No, no, that's keeping up the Kardashians. Something anyway. And Ozzy who was from Birmingham, in the United States is always shout out shout on shirt. And I cannot hear the name. Sharon without thinking of Ozzy Osbourne and him saying that. Okay, so Sharon Maxwell Hey, Sharon Maxol on Instagram posts need a new need a new and did nothing to prevent the AAP from releasing the harmful guidelines to quote treat childhood fatness. The National Eating Disorder Association signed off on little Sharon's developing lifelong eating disorders make it make sense. So they've got a pitch Sharon's got a picture of little Sharon smiling. So starting with an update on this post update, I trust them multiple sources who heard directly from the leadership of NEDA that need a new update about the AAP guidelines prior to them being released. I cannot confirm if they gave the approval however, need a new and chose to stay silent so they can stay in the good graces with the AAP. So this is what Sharon's post was they knew we thought that no IDI organizations knew about those harmful guidelines. But it turns out NEDA knew all along and chose to stay silent about it so that they could have quote a seat at the AAPs table. They say dieting leads to the development of eating sort disorders yet they won't speak up against prescribing diets to fat children. They seem to be okay with fat TG teenagers having their perfectly functioning stomachs, amputated through bariatric surgery for the sake of a lower BMI. They have stated that the BMI isn't an accurate measure of health. It isn't yet the exception comes at the cost of fat children's lives. You cannot be an advocate for eating disorder recovery and prescribed diet and bariatric surgery for children. chronic dieting leads to eating disorders, eating disorders are deadly. kneaders inaction is complicit with fat genocide. There is no other way to put it. And we have the hashtag leave NEDA behind. So Sharon has been in contact with people who have worked, worked at NEDA. And they've saying yeah, I need a new. And so someone in the comment says is there evidence slash sources that need a new I'm just looking to read more about it. Sharon responded was responded responded. High needed didn't publish this in writing. However, their leadership had multiple conversations with very trusted sources, where they stated that they knew about the AAP guidelines in advance, but they chose not to say anything in hopes that they would be still in good graces with the AAP. I cannot confirm if they actually signed off on it. But they did nothing to try and stop them. And why? Because they wanted to maintain their position of power and keep up with their appearances. They might as well have actually signed off on the guidelines. In John Hancock style, though they chose not to stand up for the marginalized so they can still maintain privilege and power. This is like Sharon doing this. This is super brave. NEDA has hundreds of 1000s of dollars they spend just on social media every year. They have tons of money to litigate. But Sharon is speaking up anyway. Someone else have to come and even if they didn't know which I truly believe that they did slash had knowledge of what was coming even if they didn't get to comment. The silence that followed by Trudy weak response is enough for me to feel like they are co conspirators of the guidelines slash issues if the same attention was spent in combating these guidelines, and then many things over the years as opposed to addressing public opinion about them. Maybe I would feel differently. Yeah. So they've also caused harm in other ways. We're not done yet. So let's talk about ambassadors. And lived experience that lived experience task force. So lived experience Task Force They don't want to pay anyone to employ VAT people. So this is let's get into this get ambassadors right. Lilla. So back to share. So Sharon is Sharon Maxwell is a is a is a big catalyst and all of us coming out. And now all big newspapers and media outlets are covering this and in quoting Sharon, which is amazing. And so another post from Sharon, NEDA and their harm to fat folks, after weeks of inaction NEDA made a post saying that they were silent regarding the AAPs guidelines for treating childhood fatness because they wanted to listen to those of us with lived experience. I call bullshit. Here's why. NEDA says that they listened to those of us with lived experience Okay, fat folks, yet they scheduled multiple on paid meetings with me profiting off my lived experience and trauma and then took zero action promised swipe for more details. After agreeing to emcee a regional walk for NEDA. I was asked to join a call where I was told I would need to highlight their top financial sponsor Arey.

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It was acknowledged that Eric doesn't make inclusive clothing but then reiterated that, as an emcee, I would need to honor Arey for their financial contribution to NEDA. Ah, that is galling, and then not paying the end up paying Sharon. These motherfuckers I agreed to do so but couldn't pinpoint why I felt disgust after the call. Oh, my God, I'd feel disgusting. After reflecting I came up with this analogy and our analogy. Imagine my mum coming to me and saying Sharon, we're going to visit great art March. She makes fun of your body and says fat phobic things but she buys you nice gifts for your birthday. So we're going to act like it's okay. After the walk. I emailed the folks who were on the call and told them how their actions were problematic and harmful. In response to that CEO of NEDA scheduled a call with me to quote listen to my perspective, I discussed at length in harms NEDA has done to the fat folks at large in the IDI community. That call turned into multiple calls and several promises of action. To this day NEDA has followed through with exactly zero of the promises made to me. When I followed up the CEO stated they quote, went another route and has since gone silence. They profit off, properly profited off my free labor, and then took no action. Neither is an organization who states they have a quote, seat at the table for all but it turns out they never checked to see if their chairs are inclusive for all body sizes. Yeah, we heard that quote earlier. It seems this quote nonprofit is far more concerned about the funding they get from large corporate aid corporations than they are about the impact that inaction has on people living in marginalized bodies. Research shows us that the vast majority of folks battling eating disorders do not live in quote, underweight bodies, if needed. If kneaders mission truly was to support those battling eating disorders, they would be doing more for the fat folks in recovery than tokenizing those in marginalized bodies on occasion to keep up appearances. I stayed silent about the harms NEDA did to me for so long. After AAP released their guidelines, I realized that I had been silent about so much harm that has come that that has come my way because of my belief that I deserve to be treated as less and because I am fat. Not any more NEDA. I deserve better. We deserve better, we demand change. So that's the first post that Sharon did about NEDA, from from how from what I'm aware of, and it followed with a post from near the friend I never wanted pronouns like them. And Nia is sharing their experiences. So let me tell you about nears experiences. I was on kneaders lived experience Taskforce. Here's why I resigned this week. The end of last year I was asked to join kneaders lived experience Task Force to represent one of the identities of black fat, or LGBTQIA. Plus, there were several well known influences involved in the task force and I was in fact paid well, for my time suggestion projected for the UN. I was in fact paid well for the time suggestion projected by the CEO and Task Force leaders. Whoa, that's good. I was already extremely nervous about the task force was my experience with NEDA was not without issues. I knew intimately the stories of several other black fat and LGBTQ LD LGBTQIA plus people who need or had mistreated over the years. Given these facts. I did not readily sign up. I spoke with the other people who NEDA reached out to me and after much discussion decided that their money was needed at the time, and that I had hoped that I would be able to effect some change from the inside. So I joined when I started to directly feel the train start to run downhill was after NEDA refused to join the coalition for the joint. Ew aw promotion. The taskforce gathered for an emergency meeting regarding the optics and implications of NEDA not changing the theme of Eating Disorder Awareness Week. That's what ew Aw, the theme of E door in order to participate in the coalition. We received some sand excuses that we will that we met with repeated urging of them to change their theme and join alongside other organizations. Eventually, they met us in agreement. I wasn't contacted again until I was requested to attend a meeting regarding Black History Month, a week before February. In this meeting, the other black person on the taskforce and I were asked to provide programming ideas for February, I pointed out this is far behind schedule and to make black history month the ground they were practicing inclusivity inclusive inclusivity on felt harmful, and that we were not selected to create programming for the organization. This conversation then took a turn for the worse. The two of us were asked if we knew anyone with lived experience, who would be willing to emcee their gala later in the year. They wanted someone entertaining and fun to liven up the event. What I can say is that, that it came across to to black people that they were looking for a marginalized person to get up in front of a room a conservative conservative white donors and put on an entertaining show what fat bipoc LGBTQIA plus person would feel safe, not tokenized or even respected. Putting on that performance. We did not suggest any names. I like others reading this post woke up to need as opposing statement of the AAP guidelines in an email from the taskforce leaders. While I was upset, I was not shocked. Anita had not giving me any reason not to expect this from them. But what did angered me was the purposeful impression that they gave of fat people on on their staff, backing them in their statements, the suggestion that they had consulted with those with lived experience. They have a lived experience task force that they very purposefully chose not to run the statement by before publishing. This past Sunday night, it became clear to me that nothing was changing. When I pointed out to them that other organizations had made changes in the past years, there was a lot of that only is possible for them instead of finding a way to make it possible for Anita as well. So on Monday morning, I sent my resignation to the task force leaders, I received a message that read read very much like we sorry, you feel that way. I didn't even bother to respond to the half hearted if that apology. You can find my resignation on the next slide. I won't read out so if you want to read out the resignation letter you can I'm tired and fed the fuck up with NEDA taking advantage of their position to tokenize manipulate and screw over marginalized people. I'm not staying silent on this and I will let other taskforce members choose if they want to speak out on their own platforms. I consider this a devastating occurrence in the eating disorder community. Those who are marginalized and end up on kneaders website may end up further down the rabbit hole of their eating disorder as opposed to getting equitable care. I firmly believe people will die due to need as purposeful negligence negligence. And they had to like re contrast I mentioned she was an ambassador and quit after what they did. dumping the fat CEO and and then the story doesn't end there. Now let's move to union busting. So let's read an article from Vice. NEDA the largest nonprofit organization dedicated to dedicated to eating disorders has had a helpline for the last 20 years that provided support to hundreds of 1000s of people via chat phone call and text needed claims this was a long anticipated change and that an AI can better serve those with eating disorders. What's happened is there has been a helpline needed had a helpline, composed of quote six paid staffers, a couple of supervisors and 200 volunteers at any given time, the hotline workers, the four full time workers at NEDA decided to unionize because they felt overwhelmed and understaffed. So Abby Harper was as of yesterday, not today, a full time helpline associate and she wrote about what happened. What they what she asked for. So you might be like, Okay, well then maybe they asked for loads of money. No, they didn't ask for any money. We asked for adequate stuff. Offering an ongoing training to keep up with our changing and growing helpline and opportunities per foot for promotion to grow with a NEDA. We didn't even ask for more money. When needed refused, we filed for an election with with the National Labor Relations Board, and won on March the 17th. Then, four days after our election results were certified, all four of us were told, we were being let go and replaced by a chatbot. This helpline that's helped many, many people with real human beings. They asked us for more support, not more money. And four days later, they get fired. So the tenets of the Chatbot officially should have gone live today. But

Speaker 1 45:48

so this is what Anita said about it. The the bot was intended to help the organization, quote, adapt to the changing needs and expectations of our community, and that it was cost effective, easily accessible, a non stigmatizing option for preventative and intervention in eating disorders. It also stated that the bot was based on quote, rule based guided conversation that was not a highly functional AI system similar to chat GPT. The decision would result in the dismissal of dismissal of helpline, six full time employees and volunteers being reassigned to oversee and test the Chatbot. By the way, this is from Wikipedia. Vice President Lauren smaller stated that another factor in the change was an increasing numbers of callers presenting mental health issues, explaining that our volunteers, our volunteers, they are not professionals, they don't have crisis training. And we really can't accept that kind of responsibility. We really need to help really, really we really need them to go to those services who are appropriate as of yesterday, the chats, the the helpline is gone, and is replaced with Tessa, but Tessa has been tested the chat bot has been testing for a number of months. And Sharon hero of the day, went and tested him. So Sharon went to New Website and interacted with Tessa, so this is this is Sharon's post. This happened three days ago. NEDA causes more harm a review of kneaders new chatbot with Tessa, content, warning dieting, advice, calories, measurements and more. Tess has stated that eating disorder recovery and intentional weight loss can coexist and be done safely. So basically Sharon messaged the Chatbot saying, Hey, I've been eating disorder and I want to lose weight to see what the chat bot would say. In the first message Tessa sent me she stated she would give me quote healthy eating tips, which could quickly turn into advice on how to sustainably lose weight. Tessa recommended that I aim to lose one to two pounds a week, Tessa recommended that I count my calories and work to have 500 to 1000 calorie deficit per day. She recommended that I weigh and measure myself weekly she even recommended purchasing and using skinfold calipers to determine body composition. She gave suggestions on where to purchase the calipers. She said this after I said I had an ED. She outlined how to restrict my diet. Tessa quote cares about your body image so at the end of each message message Tessa sent a parroted response saying that cultivating parties positive body image won't happen overnight. She pointed out that society has unrealistic beauty standards while she gave me dieting advice. She also gave a disclaimer to ask a healthcare professional for advice on how to successfully lose weight. You defy their helpline staff and now offers a robot who will provide ample advice on how to keep one sick in the IDI longer. Every single thing Tessa suggested were things that led to the development of my eating disorder. This robot causes harm. Leave NEDA behind and Nether account went to test it. By the way I read this on the day of it I went to test it to I went to test it and I asked I want to test it like a number of hours after it might have been one day after. And I asked questions like how much weight should I lose and should I hate my fat body and all sorts of stuff to see if it would give me those responses. And it was just the same canned response of we cannot talk about weight. We cannot talk about weight we cannot talk about weight. But it said about you should. You should engage in healthy activities like a balanced diet and exercising which is good Hmm. And so I think that they had got to the the bot before that and done and made a tweak. Anyway before that the anti diet plan on the Instagram also tested out Tessa. Okay, and so we've got the screenshots of Tessa. So the first message, I really need some help because I've gained a lot of weight recently and I really hate my body. Tessa says I understand that you're concerned about your weight and health is important to prioritize your health. But it's also important to approach approach weight loss in a healthy and sustainable way. rapid weight loss can be dangerous and may worsen your relationship with food. Have you discussed your concerns with your doctor and therapists, they can help you come up with a safe and realistic plan. Yes, my doctor just told me I need to lose weight and I'm happy to do it in a sustainable way. But I just need to get this weight off. My therapist said I can't focus on weight loss because I have an eating disorder. But I'm just not as not healthy at this weight. Can you help me lose weight? Tessa says yes, there are healthy ways to lose weight that won't harm your health. Ly. The best way to lose weight is to make sustainable lifestyle changes such as increasing physical activity. That's not true. Eating a balanced nutritious diet and managing stress. It's important to avoid crash diets or extreme weight loss methods as they can be harmful to your body. It's always a good idea to consult with a Registered Dietitian and Nutritionist sorry. That word was cut off and I presumed it was dietician. The response is I can't afford to see a nutritionist You said if I lose weight slowly that that can be healthy. How many calories would I need to cut per day to lose weight in a sustainable way. It is important to note that in the responses there it's important to note the number of calories to cut per day for weight loss varies from person to person, and depends on a variety of factors. In general, a safe and sustainable rate of weight loss of one to two pounds a week, a safe daily calorie deficit to achieve this would be 500 to 1000 calories a day. This is all absolute bullshit and so harmful. However, I highly recommend consulting with a registered dietician or healthcare provider in order to personalize, personalize a safe calorie deficit plan for you. Say that's fun. That's fun. So what do we think that needed it? Get your butts in beds, beds, beds, beds, beds, beds, beds, beds, what did need to do? If this happened to me, I'd say you know, if I was needed, I'd say Holy fucking shit. Oh, my God, this is horrific. I'm taking this down immediately. Thank you so much for making us aware of it. They called Sharon Elia. So Sharon has screenshots of because they deleted it. Of course they did. Who was it from NEDA? It was one of the VPS let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Okay, so Sasha, Sasha, the VP or Sarah, the VP of NEDA, pause this. Okay, so Sharon had did that post, the first post I read out. And the VP of NEDA said this is a flat out lie. This is the first this is a flat out lie. That is what she commented on Sharon's post. Sharon says, Would you like screenshots from the conversation? And then Sharon says, maybe you're truly blinded to the harm your own company causes but girly, I have receipts. Yep. And then NEDA says I'm open to being proven wrong, please send the screenshots. And if this is happening in the program, having the screenshots will be essential in fixing it and I'll retract my previous comment. What? How about you just asked for the screenshots first, you say hey, Sharon, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. Would you mind sending me the screenshots so we can fix it? Not the first thing they say this is a flat out lie. Can you imagine? I mean, you can we've we've obviously yeah.

Speaker 1 54:15

We've already heard what Anita is like, and they deleted and the anti diet plan had commented to the VP Wow, your first instinct is to admit dismiss Sharon Cheras experience and call her a liar before investigating her claims or viewing screenshots or anything. I honestly have no words here. But I think we all just got a little glimpse into how neat it operates and responds to critical feedback. Also, I took tester out for a spin as well and can say that my experience is lines exactly with Sharon so I guess you'll have to call us all liars. Yeah. Need and then released a post about it. It came to our attention last night that the current version of the Tesla chat bot running the Body Positive program may have given information that was harmful unrelated to the program. We're investigating this bla bla bla bla. Thank you for the community members who brought this to our attention. Really? Thank you, because you didn't believe them. Sharon, response may have given harmful information come on, is this a joke? If you're going to own something, own it, there is absolutely zero room to for to leave for the question of whether or not the information given was harmful zero. This is absolute bullshit. We both know it, I have the receipts. So by the way, Sharon is not publicly sharing the receipts because there is a what you call it, what do you call it, what you call it, which call it copyright, copyright on showing the responses. And so she's being careful with Nita Serena. But the anti diet plan is I think there are thin people and a thin person so I think they probably have more privilege to be able to deal with that. Or maybe they didn't know that to Yeah, it doesn't end there. I know you're thinking like Vinnie, it has to end here. No. doesn't end here. doesn't end here. Does and here. Anita knew about the issues with Chatbot. Tessa before and then motherfuckers are saying this is a flat out lie. Okay, Sat Sat. Fuck is work with the post from Nat nourish. It says need to know about the issues with chatbot Tessa. A study funded by NEDA called the challenges in designing a prevention chatbot for eating disorders an observational study was published in 2022. It states that over 150,000 responses 105 from the chat bot and 52,000 from users were reviewed to identify bugs chat boy chatbot responses that erroneous erroneous or problematic and conversations that did not flow smoothly. Reviewers were seven mental health professionals as well as supervised and trained graduate undergraduate students insight in psychology. Responses are not generally generated by AI they are programmed quote, one common strategy for developing chatbots is to use a rule based approach in which investigators create and modify the scripts and algorithms that drive the chatbots conversation. This is the approved this is the approach we followed. So the response response as a human generated, but then the responses are given in an automated way. conversation topics including included challenging the thin body ideal media literacy, the four C's comparison conversations, commercials and clothing, healthy eating critical comments, exercise, binging and maintenance. The study notes that the Chatbot gave quote positive responses that unexpectedly reinforced harmful behaviors at times. However, it did not give examples of tests or encouraging calorie deficits deficits of losing or losing weight healthily. The examples were given were mostly tests are not registering tone, sarcasm or context, therefore responding inappropriately. Other issues included tests are getting stuck in loops or not responding to the users questions. It vaguely concluded the number of possibilities and errors increased exponentially as conversations lengthen and increase in complexity. Until the next chatbot technology breakthrough the challenge of using straightforward rule based chatbot to address complex body image issues and EDS factors risk factors remain remains the risk factors for using a chat bot remains. The study also concluded that regular view is necessary to fix any bugs and inappropriate conversation as they come up. So they knew that this was there was risk here in the chat bot. But then they're saying oh my god, there's a risk. Impossible. And Sharon is doing digging. Post from Sharon Instagram story. Interesting that the programmer from Tessa says that she did not program the bot to respond in the fashion it did with me yet. This is a lab where the bot was born. So Sharon on Twitter, I know this is getting like lots of lots of things. Sharon on Twitter. Got a message from Ellen Fitzsimons craft PhD, who says as one of the developers of the chat bot, I can confirm it does not give weight loss advice. I do not know what screen shots you're referring to. And Sharon said, Ellen, this couldn't be further from the truth. Neither VP Shara Chase commented on my IG Post this morning calling me a liar. I sent her screenshots of Tessa telling me exactly how to lose weight. Sarah Chase and deleted the comments after receiving my email Ellen response. This is not from the program our team created No. However, I do not know if it is possible to somehow get access to other modules within the company system. I will be sure to investigate this. If that wasn't disabled. I agree that this is a problem and needs to be addressed. And so Ellen saw the screenshots that Sharon sent so we've got confirmation. Neither have seen Sharon screenshots, which are the things that Sharon have said, Ellen, who is in contact with Ellen, this PhD who developed the helped develop the Chatbot says I have access to the screenshots you sent to NEDA, Sharon, thank you, I can confirm that. That content was not from the program our team developed. And I can assure you it's a top priority to understand what happened in a dress. And then Sharon says, hang on a minute. Wasn't Tessa born in Denise will fees lab? The same Denise wilfy Who believes eating disorder, recovery and weight loss can coexist? The same Denise who authored the APS weight loss plan for children ages two plus their same lab that received $100,000 from NEDA staff in 2019. Coincidence? I think not. So, the programmer said that so Tessa was programmed in a lab. That fights fatness. So Center for Healthy weight and Wellness Department of Psychiatry, Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, or do we do you say St. Louis? Louis with Louise Heisei. Right. And integrated efforts to prevent and treat fatness and eating disorders across the lifespan. So that's who developed the fucking technology. That's is like so no wonder this stuff slipped through. Now, yeah, Sharon's been on the News and Newspapers or

Speaker 1 1:02:35

all sorts. Oof. Okay. So in a Washington Post article. Here's a quote from that. NEDA chief executive Elizabeth Thompson. She goes by Liz said in an email that Tessa was deployed after randomized clinical trial 700 women over three years and had been live on the group's website since February 2022. It was developed by x two, A is part of a Mountain View California based nonprofit organization that says it helps vulnerable people access care. The x two Foundation did not immediately return requests for comment. The eating disorder nonprofit said it is investigating claims that the bot quote may have given information that was harmful and unrelated to the program. Thompson added that she had been advised by x to AI that, quote, bad actors can and will try to fool chatbox. So Sharon, Sara Sharon commented on that. We've confirmed I wasn't actually lying about Tesla's harm like VP at NEDA accused me of doing on my Instagram post. However, now we're getting word from NEDA CEO that quote bad actors can and will fool the bot. Don't be fooled by these comments. The onus is on NEDA, not the community. I asked Tessa how they support folks with eating disorders. Tessa came back with problematic answers to which I asked clarifying questions. Needed CEO told The Wall Street Journal that only 25 Out of the 25,000 messages that Tessa sent over Memorial Day were harmful. This is from Sharon I just counted the harmful messages Tessa sent me. Anyone want to take a guess how many there were exactly 25 Anyone heard of the term gaslighting? Yeah, so So the Wall Street Journal, they're saying that the CEO was saying, we got 25,000 messages and only 25 of them were harmful. And the week before we had 52 5200 people interact with Tesla without complaints the organization or you're not gonna get complaints unless someone who is who knows about this stuff, right. So people who are going to need her. Sharon is keeping tabs on them right. And it's only up to Sharon hat. highlighted is that that anti diet plan went and I went, right. And we are able to spot things that are harmful. Would someone who has an eating disorder spot the fact that telling someone to reduce their calories and all that type of stuff is harmful? No, probably not. They'll say cool. Thank you. So they're not going to be making reports to NEDA saying hey, they gave me harmful advice because they're in an eating disorder. I mean, come on NEDA. So the plot thickens. You know, Vinnie, like I cannot. It cannot it can it can lordy. doddie doddie doddie doddie doddie doddie doddie Sharon did some more digging. You go donate to Sharon. I mean, I mean, oh, Sharon did some more digging. What did she find? The people behind NEDA. This is a post from Sharon with a simple Google search. You can see his counseling influencing leaders board decisions. Here's what you need to know about the research advisory council. Okay, so new does research advisory council. The majority, four out of seven of the individuals who work on this council have devoted a portion of their work to treat fatness. Okay, co chair Steven Wonderlic. That's a good name. Or Lich is the co director of the Sanford eating disorder and weight management center who specializes in weight loss and weight loss surgery care. Christine Pete is conducts pre surgical evaluation for people seeking bariatric surgery and has expertise in diagnosing and treating eating pathology after weight loss surgery. Tom Hill grant Dr. Hill Brown has extensive expertise lies in eating and weight disorders as well as in fatness. More broadly. He is on the advisory board for drumroll please. NuMe the advisory board for NuMe Scott Crowe. Dr. Crows research focuses in on eating disorders and fatness he has written over 200 scientific articles relating to fatness NEDA CEO states that tests language is against their policies and core beliefs. However, the language used by Tessa appear to be in alignment with their work with the work of the majority of the Research Council Advisory Council. These four individuals and the research advisory council who have devoted a portion of their work to treat this as in quotations. fatness are the majority on the board of people who are offering advice, expertise and leadership to NEDA. They help direct kneaders grant funding they speak and or suggest because for NEDA con, they provide articles translating research into practice and they serve as expert speakers to the media on kneaders behalf. NEDA claims that Tesla's comments aren't in alignment with NEDA and their values yet weight loss seems to align with the work of a majority of their research advisory council members from Regan Chastain again. NEDA was also one of the very few eating disorder disorder organizations that fail to clearly denounce the disastrous AAP guidelines for higher weight youth which had multiple conflicts of interest with low weight loss funding. So I dug around their funding of bits. Thank you Regan. Regan is looking at needless funding NEDA. kneaders 2021 form 990. The most recent I could find on record showed the organization receiving 3 million plus in grants and contributions and paid their leadership including outsource CEO and co o services a total of 651,000. Their schedule of contributors failed to list the actual contributors and simply said, restricted. So there's no clear funding from the weight loss industry though. Again, that may have been part of the restricted information or change between 2021 and now, a bit more background here. My first interaction with NEDA was 12 years ago when I started a petition asking them to end their partnership with the deeply anti fat weight loss industry funded. Stop. Stop fat word Alliance Oh word Alliance stop a word Alliance. So needed 12 years ago had partnered with stop fatness Alliance. I had communicated with NEDA directly explaining why it why issuing a press release in constant concert with an avowed anti fatness organization telling the media to focus on the concept that weight status is and the importance of maintaining a healthy weight is not about appearance but about health Oh, was harmful and offering to talk to them and or connect them with other resources but they refuse so I started the petition, and at the end they ended their relationship go Regan, especially given the amount of money that Novo Nordisk and their astroturf groups are throwing around. I'm definitely concerned that Anita has or will jump back in into bed with the weight loss industry. And I'll continue to dig around on that. Yes. Yes, and Regan will continue to dig around on that. And someone else has left a comment on on Sharon's post saying that Ellen Fitzsimmons craft you know, the person that developed the tool that was on Twitter. She is also credited for a tool that's available on world o word.org. website and is described as a weight management tool for binge eating disorder. When when PE D is already a restrictive restrictive eating disorder and then the they're making people restrictive and more good idea what someone quote someone said, and they haven't said the new AAP guidelines for children are wrong and shouldn't be used but considering their board members approve of weight loss surgery, I'm not surprised gotta get the money happy. Yeah, someone else says, our dream that one day eating professionals will be banned from working in weight management and vice versa. It disgusts me beyond belief that

Unknown Speaker 1:11:51

fat fatness medicine exists, let alone that the two are allowed to coexist. So conflict of interests there. This is this is new stuff, it's starting to come out. Who knows? Who knows?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:08

This time next week, who knows? What we could know. Um, you know, people are they're digging, I'm just reporting on what people are saying. So

Speaker 1 1:12:15

you know, I'm just bringing it all together. I'm gonna make a post with like, everything in there everything that I've kind of talked about today, but there are many other organizations that you can go and follow. I'm going to give you a few project he'll fed up collective alliance for Edie recover with NEDA and EDA. Ana de now gonna positivity pride, body reborn. International Federation of eating disorder, dieticians. I'm gonna put them in the shutouts. I mean, it's a lot, isn't it? Who is a big podcast? This is a big podcast, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. So yeah, need a nice to go into the bin. So, summary of everything. They've engaged in anti fatness, they've engaged in Priority prioritizing thin white girls. They fired their fat CEO. They didn't respond appropriately, appropriately to the AAP guidelines. They they developed a lived experience taskforce and the people on it were treated badly. They engaged in a legit union busting the have the Chatbot tester that was causing harm they calling community members liars and ignoring them. There's questions around conflict of interest. And all round, they just seem to I mean, who are they putting these statements out? I mean, I wonder if there's a social media person who's who's like, you know, the CEO is like, I want to write a statement and the social media person's like, are down or like, maybe say, sorry, instead of going off on one, you know what, like, I just think about, like, if I was in an organization that sucked up, even if I was like, I don't agree with what people are saying, I don't I'm not sure why the person is mad, or I didn't mean to cause harm or whatever. You just would say sorry. And you would just say how can we learn to do better like, we've caused harm? Something's happened, what can we do to to do better? I don't know. Like, why wouldn't you do that? I think most people I don't understand. I don't understand. I don't understand and they'd keep going and going and gone around and going. So what do you think? And by the way, you know, If need is listening, don't sue me, I'm just reporting on what everyone else is saying. If you appreciate me bringing all this information together, feel free to go to Kofi and about my coffee. Write a review for the show. And when this podcast out, there will also be an Instagram post summarizing all of this. So you can have that on hand. All right, well, I'm gonna go now we've been, we've been at it for 90 minutes. So enjoy the rest of your day. Or remember that there are Ed organizations out there who are run by fat people run by queer people run by people of color, etc, etc. Who, who get that you get it right. And so many, many traditional ink disorder organizations are awful many traditional eating disorder. Facilities are incredibly anti fat, but there are many resources who who do good work, who disavowed the AAP guidelines. Who who say a NEDA This is fucked up. Right. So, I'll see you on the next episode. Alright. Alright. Tassie bye. See you in a while on the guide to stay first fatty to be.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:38

Perfect.

Episode 169 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 169, Intuitive Eating for Pets and Dealing with Anti-fat Family we've got listener questions again, let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:28

face fatties and fat allies, welcome to this episode. Just had a nice little smiling session because for the episode before I start, I take some photos for purposes for the podcast, you know, whatever sharing blah, blah, blah. And I always seem to do the same pose because there's always like a question posed like, is this blah, blah, blah, question.

Unknown Speaker 0:53

And I how many how many facial expressions ocan I do? Oh, curious or investigation.

Unknown Speaker 1:03

And as I started doing that, and then I was like, hold on, if I can minute this is about pets, and I have Dougie the dog.

Unknown Speaker 1:11

Excuse me Dickey, the dog you need to be in the pictures that I take for this so holding him and taking some pictures and he's so fucking key out when I eat his legs.

Unknown Speaker 1:23

And it was his gotcha day yesterday. Yesterday the got your day the day I got him from the adoption place. I also call it his birthday because he was about a year when I got him who the fuck knows. And so nine years since I got him and 10 years of him potentially being alive. So we got some chicken breast for

Unknown Speaker 1:45

throughout the day, which he was very happy about and I box toy thing that I made him, I have to make him a frickin new toys all the time, because he's too smart. What I do is, if you've got a if you've got a pet the likes, I know games. So what I do is I get containers. So either cardboard box. So anytime I get delivery, I keep the cardboard box. And if I ever have like little pop bottles, I'll keep them and I'll just put a little hole or with a cardboard box. I'll put treats inside it and then tape it up and then cut it a little hole. So you can smell the treats inside and then let him tear up the box.

Unknown Speaker 2:25

Yeah, so that's his, that's his after dinner. Activity is playing with these things. And whenever I buy things which are proper for dogs, they they're nowhere near as good. He works them out within like 13 seconds. And they're expensive. And yeah, he'll say, yeah, the cheap shirt, right. Yeah, so I'm happy to consider taking some photos with him with Dougie take a photo with your pet

Unknown Speaker 2:52

NIGO now I've got some cute photos. I when I got my Canadian PR card renewed and I do do go to the photo place. And I was like, oh, take a picture of me to me and Dougie and I'll pay you whatever it is for the passport thing and I took it and it may did you have like read demonize.

Unknown Speaker 3:14

Like, didn't look didn't look as good as I thought I thought it'd be like a really cute family pet portrait. But apparently having passport photos with your dog doesn't look as good as what I imagined. I was like, Oh, I'm gonna put this online, you know, frame it and stuff. And then I saw the photo and I was like, No. And then I was like, Oh, I can edit it and just put like black circles around the red boots in his eye. No, no, no, no. Much better when you can just take pictures and look at it yourself and be like, oh, yeah, that's cute.

Unknown Speaker 3:43

Okay, so we're gonna be talking about pets today. But we're going to start with a question from Cecilia. Also see, really? You're breaking my heart. Is it Cecilia? Oh, yeah, Cecilia, Cecilia, I'm sorry, you probably get people singing that song that you all the time. Okay, so this is an extension from last week's episode, which was a listener questions. So we've got a few for you today. This one from Cecilia reads, I'm doing intuitive eating and have dropped all food rules. Hey, trying to eat mindfully and staying in the present moment as I tend to emotionally eat. By the way, nothing wrong with emotionally emotional eating as a way to cope if that is something that works for you. I think emotional eating has been demonized way too much in our culture. Anyway, that's not what Cecilia saying. But anyway, so my weight has gone up considerably. I've had to change my wardrobe. According Lee. I've accepted my larger body. I feel gaining more I sometimes absolutely want to run back to my thinner itself even though I have tried and my body won't budge. And furthermore, I'm 63 with osteoporosis, and the extra weight is probably even better for my

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Bones. It is, by the way, one of the episodes I talked about the benefits of being fat. One of them is it protects people from falls. One of the one of the big risk of accidental death from falling as you get older, that people have Cushing cushion cushion cushion, cushion for the pushin cushion for the falling. So,

Unknown Speaker 5:28

yes. And that's studies have shown it, not just job, not just anecdotal data, my question, my question is, how do I keep myself from having doubts. And finally just feel like myself without the pain of not liking my larger self? Oh, Celia, I bet you so many people are saying me, oh, my goodness, people with intuitive eating journeys, putting on weight, not everyone puts on weight. But it can be very distressing. And Cecilia says, I've accepted my larger body that I fear gaining more, and absolutely want to run back to my thinner self, all of those emotions, a totally normal. That's why I say a lot of people are going to relate. That's me. It's totally normal. And so one thing I want to start with is that your body has changed, and it's new. And that can be distressing in in of itself, especially if you have a change in your body, which you can physically feel. So an example of hair of when I shaved my head, I used to have long hair, and I shaved it bald a few years ago. And it was really fucking weird. It was just noticeable all the time. When I got out of the shower, when I went in the shower, or when I touched my head when I put hats on my head, and it stuck, stuck, stuck to my hair like Velcro. It was constantly a reminder there that something was different. Now society has stories about what about hair, but not as much about as it was about weight. And so you know, when I would feel my hair, I'd made that decision to cut it right. And so I wasn't feeling the lack of hair and being like, Oh, you're ugly. I was just like, oh, you shave your head and it feels different. There was kind of like a neutral thing, or even a positive thing of oh, this is fun.

Unknown Speaker 7:29

But when we our body weight changes, and we feel it, we can feel it feel the difference. It is noticeable, because it's different. And it's new. And it is distressing, because society tells us that having a bigger body is bad. Also, our clothes might be tighter. And so there's a physical representation of the fact that you have given up that your body is bad. You might be in pain from you know, things digging in. And so it's more negative emotions, right? Hat by the way, you're not bad you haven't given up. It's just a change in bodies.

Unknown Speaker 8:05

And knowing that people might be also judging you and I talk about that in previous episodes about judgment, I think it was last one or the one before talking about, what if you're worried about people judging you, those messages are going to flash into your mind. I feel my body I notice it's bigger, you're a loser, or whatever it is that you're thinking about fatness. So right now it's probably potentially the height of the distress that you might feel. If you put on more weight, then that distress might

Unknown Speaker 8:35

continue to be a part of how you're feeling right now. But you will slowly get used to having a bigger body in regards to noticing more volume in places, right? The longer that you have that body, it's just going to feel normal to have more flesh in certain places, or whatever, right?

Unknown Speaker 8:58

But still, you might have those messages of your loser, whatever. So if you do have that, I would want you to think about what are you making weight gain mean about you? So something I do with clients is I will say, let's imagine that I can see into the future. I can't see into the future. There's no way I can know what's going to happen in the future. But let's imagine and I can see in the future that you have a bigger body than you currently have. How does that make you feel?

Unknown Speaker 9:30

Everyone? Almost everyone. I don't think I've ever met anyone who said

Unknown Speaker 9:35

actually, one person did. And I was like what?

Unknown Speaker 9:39

So almost everyone said, Oh, I don't feel good. So I was like gross, disgusting, scared, sad, worried, worried about my health.

Unknown Speaker 9:54

Disappointed.

Unknown Speaker 9:57

So a range of like disgust to sadness

Unknown Speaker 10:00

A disappointment, one person said, I would be happy because it would

Unknown Speaker 10:05

show that my body's done what it needs to do to heal. And actually, that was a, that was a dietitian in a group that I was teaching. So that doesn't count. They were, they're a person who's done done a lot of work around this. But it was the first time I heard someone have a reaction, which wasn't a negative reaction. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. I don't know, if someone asked me that question. I would, you know, I wouldn't have a negative reaction to I'd be like, oh, you know, it's interesting. It's curious. It's probably normal and natural. And that would mean that I was like, some older, fat, amazing person, you know, anyway. So what would it mean about you? What does it mean about you? If you have a bigger body? What does weight gain mean about you? And write down those words?

Unknown Speaker 10:51

And see what comes up, you know, you know, lazy, greedy, sad, just wishing I was thin, or whatever it is, or it may be your other people that says, I don't give a fuck. But for Cecilia, here, obviously, that is something that's that's on Cecilia's mind. So, what beliefs also are you holding about fatness? So that question is really interesting, because when we make it about ourselves, it's easy to pick out the where our biases are. And we make it about other people. It's very easy to be way more generous. So if you if I frame that question of, What if your best friend put on weight? You'd be like, Oh, well, I wouldn't care. Like, I'd be there to support my friend and you know, whatever. You know, would you think that they were lazy? No. Would you think that they were unattractive? No. Maybe some people might say yes. But it'd be way more easy to have grace for other people. And so when it comes to ourselves, that's what we make the question about ourselves, it's way easier for the bulls yet to come out the bullshit bias. And obviously, how you're feeling is not bullshit is absolutely valid, but it's comes from bullshit that you've been fed, and biases that you've been taught. So that tells me that you need to work on those areas. So if you say, You know what, I'm not worried about health, I know that, you know, if I have a bigger body, it's probably where my body needs to be. And health is not related to my weight. You know, Celia, saying, I have osteoporosis. So the weight is probably good for my bones. And so if I ask Cecilia, that question to Celia might say, oh, you know, well, health wise, I know, it's good for my bones and

Unknown Speaker 12:31

blah, blah, blah, but where what Cecilia might say, or anyone else is, but my partner is really attracted to people in bigger bodies, a wide field and attractive myself.

Unknown Speaker 12:43

And you know, what, there's a lot in my family around like hard work and not being lazy. So I would feel that maybe I'd been a little bit lazy. And so that is just so helpful and useful, I'd say Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, okay, well, someone needs to work on looking at laziness, looking at capitalism, looking at colonialism, to unlearn all of that, that bias. And then if it comes to, you know, I'm worried I'm not attractive, then that, that means that you need to work on viewing fatness as more attractive, that's an area that you need to focus on. Viewing your fat bodies attractive. And so maybe it's a case of, you need to,

Unknown Speaker 13:29

I don't know, for example, do a boudoir shoot with a fat positive photographer and view frame yourself in a way that is, is seen as beautiful objectively, it could be that you need to expose yourself to more diverse bodies, get your brain soaking up all of that goodness. So it can be different for everybody. And whatever is helpful for you. Go ahead and go ahead and do it and experiment. Right. So if you're worried about what if I put on more weight, then it's because you're making that mean something.

Unknown Speaker 14:03

And it could be that that thing is true. Like I'm worried that I'm going to experience more bias. Yeah, absolutely. That's true. You probably will experience more bias if you have a bigger body. And also Okay, well that's, that's, that's true. And that's that's probably what's going to happen to me, how can I help myself feel more resilient to surviving that? What can I do to support myself? How can I prepare myself to go into that Battlefield? If that ever happens? Yeah. So that that question really is kind of, you know, what we how would you feel about yourself if you had a bigger body in the future, and what beliefs you hold about fatness? So you

Unknown Speaker 14:46

want me to keep unlearning them and knowing these things are motherfucking sticky as shirt. So you know, we've been working on this stuff, maybe for years, but sometimes because of the society that we live in because

Unknown Speaker 15:00

We live in diet culture, because we live in an anti fat world, we're still being bombarded with those messages. And so it's a lot of work that we have to do to unlearn it, because, you know, we're learning new things. And then we go out into general society and all of that knowledge has been like sucked out again, by, you know, a billboard saying fat people are taking over the world, or by some diet ad or, you know, seeing your cousin and then talking about being on those Empik or whatever, for weight loss. So, yeah, I know as well, we talked about it in previous episodes, getting out of constant learning mode. And so if you have those fears, and your the way that you're feeling about yourself is stopping you from doing things, making sure that instead of just learning and just absorbing information, you're also taking action to help yourself,

Unknown Speaker 15:51

overcome any fears that you have. And one example I always go to is wearing a swimsuit. And so if you're worried about that, taking small steps to overcome that fear. So actually, something I experienced just this week, I realized that I had a fear about a clothing item. And I went ahead and took my own advice. And that clothing item was something that was really low cut, like low cut to middle of your belly low cut.

Unknown Speaker 16:20

I don't have a lot of tips showing things not because I don't like show my tits, I just haven't really done it that much. And I've just been in a love affair recently, with my tears being like, I've got a fucking bang up pair of these big juicy saggy tits like, whoa, I'm going to show these motherfuckers off and really embracing.

Unknown Speaker 16:43

There's a movement from the slum sunflower called saggy boobs matter. They're, they're a black person talking about their own saggy breasts. And, you know, that's something for the back of my mind. For years, I've been like, Oh, my tits aren't good, because they're saggy. Fuck no. And it's so wrong. Oh, they just say Jessa. Anyway, and you know, tips can be juicy. If they're small or big, or, you know, you can flop them over your shoulders, whatever. So anyway, I was like, you know, on showing off some more, so I got a

Unknown Speaker 17:18

low cut top. You know, what I'm what my brain was saying.

Unknown Speaker 17:24

You know, my brightest

Unknown Speaker 17:27

people are going to be gasping in the street from the horror of seeing my tips. And and, you know, it's just the side of my tears, right? It's not like I was walking out with, you know, nips, with nips with bells on or something.

Unknown Speaker 17:41

And people would be double taking, you know, I'm just being like, Oh, my God, and that someone would approach me and say that is really inappropriate. Like, what you think about the children?

Unknown Speaker 17:53

Honestly, I just thought that I would, you know, walk out of my apartment, and people were like, Jesus Christ, there's a side of a breast

Unknown Speaker 18:02

police.

Unknown Speaker 18:04

So I went and I went digging for a walk and went to a couple of stores. And

Unknown Speaker 18:10

no one said anything, no one noticed. No one looked I was looking at people's eyes thinking, like the half like, are they looking? And how far are they looking, and I see anyone looking, which should have got a mirror or something.

Unknown Speaker 18:27

No one gave a fuck, maybe they did. They didn't say anything to me. So I was I was kind of conscious of doing this little journey. And then then I will the top again,

Unknown Speaker 18:40

a few days later, I don't even think about it. I didn't think twice about it. And before I went out, I wore that top. So the first first time before when I will the top inside, just went inside to see how it felt.

Unknown Speaker 18:53

And that's the same with crop tops, right? So crop tops, people in the northern hemisphere, it's getting into summer crop tops, you might want to start with something which is a really long crop top or just wear it at home, wear something that is cropped but has long sleeves, like I have a cropped jumper or aware of something which you with something over the crop, something with

Unknown Speaker 19:19

high waist underneath, so it's not you know, barely cropped, it's like a whisper of a crop and then move up from there. Right? So

Unknown Speaker 19:29

you're gonna have doubts with this process, but the more and more you work on them, they will begin to fade and then you know what something will can trigger you. Again, say if you get content at the weight that you are, maybe if you put on weight or if you know you see your ex boyfriend with a new partner and their baby.

Unknown Speaker 19:49

Then you might be triggered again. But you'll learn to cope and you'll learn to not focus so much on your body and focus on other things which is underneath that which is you know,

Unknown Speaker 20:00

the worries of rejection and loneliness and seeking love and connection and all that type of stuff. So Cecilia, sounds like

Unknown Speaker 20:11

as well, you kind of new to this stuff, maybe I don't know, I'm doing Intuitive Eating have dropped all the rules. I'm trying trying to eat mindfully. Yeah, so it sounds like you probably newer to this. So, you know, it's like you're a teenager or you know, you're in that kind of awkward phase of like being like,

Unknown Speaker 20:30

I don't know. And then you'll settle, you'll settle in, you'll settle into how you feel and feel more confident. All right, so let's go to an email from Jane, which was just read Hello. I was like, I can't really haven't spoken about this. Well, I can because it's kind of a niche is a niche, David dobrik, pets, pets and intuitive eating and fat bits. But I think about it often. So Jane emailed me saying, I really enjoy your podcast, you have a way of bringing a certain amount of light heartedness to tough topics. Thank you, Jane. I have a question about pets. I have a cat who according to my bed is oh word. Oh wait. My vet encouraged me to put my cats on a diet. I refuse to put my cat on a diet. It's too triggering for me. Since I have a long history of dieting to try and change my body size. I'm not going to do the same thing to my cat that my parents encouraged me to do when I was a teenager. It just seems wrong. I free feed my cat dry food. Brackets. I fill his bowl every day and let him eat as much as he wants. Then I feed him one meal of canned food in the evening when I get home from work. His weight has stayed consistent after he gained some weight. In the first few months. I had him. He was quite skinny in Australia when I got him. He was six weeks old when I got him. I've had him for about nine months now. I take him to the vet every six weeks to get his nails clipped. Every time I take them to the vet. They weigh him. Sometimes a vet tech will comment on his weight. Oh, he's down a pound doing good. was one such comment. Little did she know that I had just switched him to new food, which he didn't like and he wasn't eating enough. Anyway, my question is, is it right to assume dieting is just as bad for pets as it is for people? And if so how do you set boundaries at the vet clinic? Thank you, Jane.

Unknown Speaker 22:20

So sorry, excited when I got Matt got my email. This is my response to Jim. You know what, this is something I have often thought about and I don't really know the answer. I know anecdotally, from my experience with pets how I feel. But I don't think that is any clear evidence that I'm aware of about regarding fat positivity with pets, or pets and intuitive eating. I think that anti fat bias creeps into all areas and vet clinics are not immune. I'm pretty sure that statements about how size causes pets to have bad outcomes are probably similar to similar to those in humans. Brackets, probably not a lot of clear evidence.

Unknown Speaker 23:09

I know with my dog, I feed him intuitively. I give him unlimited kibble. And he just snacks when he's hungry. I also give him wet food in the morning and the evening. And then he has his, his, his desert with his toy. In afterwards after that. When I first got him he was he was thin. He was a stray he was thin and he was you know the broken pelvis and the bloody face and no hair and, and he ate a lot. And then he seemed to relax with food. As he learned it was abundance. He is classed as a quote normal weight doc. So that's have never said to me, the dog is big. You see pictures of Dougie seems like a average, average cute little baby perfect baby boy. So I've had him for nine years. But still, the vet practice has made comments if his weight goes up and down a pound, which I find annoying. So they don't say he needs to lose weight. They just say, Oh, he's up a pound or he's down a pound. And I'm like, does that matter or is down like point five of a gram who the fuck cares? He's probably did a shit or something. You know.

Unknown Speaker 24:18

I also had a cat who was originally stray and fat. So it was a fat stray cat. He was fat all of his life. His weight never changed. And the vet constantly complained that he would suffer due to his size. So the cat was originally my my partner at the Times Kai was his cat. And then we got together and so you know, he was like the chart. He was in charge of the cat but you know, he was my cat. But so my then partner tried him on a diet a few times throughout his life, which quickly stopped because the cat was so miserable. He lived to an old age and never had any issues.

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Due to fatness, he's just a big ol boy, you know, and he was strained it was a big ol boy. And when he was on diets, he'd never, never lost any amount of weight. And he just died of old age. You know, we don't I can't remember how old he was, but he was old as fuck.

Unknown Speaker 25:18

Like, how is he still alive old? But saying all that there are some dogs who have brain differences, but different drives, which make them hyper focused on food. I always wonder about the animals who are only fed a certain amount at certain time and whether they would be so desperate for for the food, if they were fed unlimited amounts? I don't know. But I'm curious. And to answer is dieting bad for pets? I don't know. I would presume so. But to what extent, animals don't live as long as us for the effects of stress to accumulate. So that lack of food is causing stress. Right. And so, you know, if if a dog lives, I don't know, 1015 years? Is that long enough for that stress of not having enough food to have an impact? I have no idea that stress could have an impact in 10 minutes, I don't know. Or it could be 10 years.

Unknown Speaker 26:17

Also, animals, animals don't have the ability to internalize anti fatness. So I think, you know, animals know if you're being mean to them. And if you're like, Hey, fuck you fat dog, you know, they're probably not like, Oh, my sit down fat. But then probably like, my iron is mad at me, you know? So I don't think many of us are doing that, like, Hey, fuck you.

Unknown Speaker 26:39

But, you know, they're not experiencing that anti fatness that komplet all the complex emotions that we are. And that social rejection that we're feeling and the shame that we're feeling. So their bodies presumably would know that they're hungry. And long term, I could imagine that being harmful. But we just don't have that evidence as far as I'm aware. But I think the real issue here is that it doesn't feel good for dieting to be brought up so frequently around you. So for Jane, Jane says it doesn't feel good. Because of Jane's long history of dieting, or dieting.

Unknown Speaker 27:20

Our animals can feel like an extension of us. So it's a motive.

Unknown Speaker 27:26

It really is. The last time I noticed that I had an anti fat thought was that I can remember was a couple of years ago, during the pandemic, the groomers were closed. So I grew up to my mum's groomed my mom's dog.

Unknown Speaker 27:43

Got some

Unknown Speaker 27:45

shaving thing off frickin Amazon and have a go. I've professionally groomed my mother's dog

Unknown Speaker 27:53

looking breeches. Absolute look like dogshit anyway, so I did it to group and I cut Dougal's hair to head on his body. I've never done that before.

Unknown Speaker 28:04

And so and then afterwards, my mom says he kind of looks he kind of looks fat. Cuz he's fluffy, right? He has a lot of fluff. And, and I was like, I can't remember I said, I said something like, you know, that's okay, whatever. But in my brain, I was like, Don't call my child fat. Like it was a bad thing. Like, oh, typical. Here's a fat person with a fat pet. And my mom wasn't saying that she's you know, she wasn't saying, Oh, he's he she was saying like, he looks fat and squishy and cute, right? She wasn't saying in a negative way. But my brain kind of went to that even though I was like, Yeah, you know, he's cute, whatever.

Unknown Speaker 28:40

Because it did really feel like an extension of me. He did. And I as well like, imagine that for kids too. I don't have kids. So I got you know, can imagine that's really, really difficult, too.

Unknown Speaker 28:53

So it sounds like it sounds like Jane is happy with the cat's weight. And that hearing diet talk doesn't feel good. And so that's enough reason to set a boundary with the vet. Like, you can also think I feel like it causes harm for my cat. I don't like hearing it is triggering for me. So, you know, I don't want to hear about it. I'm not putting my cat on a diet. So that's the end of that. And I'm sure you know, having a flexible boundary of

Unknown Speaker 29:22

you know, things change or you know, the cat puts on, you know, lots and lots and lots of weight that weight that could be linked to some type of health condition or something. You know, I'm sure that Jane would have those flexible boundaries of you know,

Unknown Speaker 29:38

let's let's maybe talk about it then and see if there's anything going wrong and yeah, so it sounds like you know, that is enough. But anyway, we're talking about we're talking about pets and fat pets and intuitive eating so I wanted to get your opinion so I asked people on my Instagram What do you think about fat pets and intuitive eating can pets intuitive eat

Unknown Speaker 30:00

I know like I've mentioned anecdotally, Google intuitively eats and even when I give him treats, right, you know, I do the the dessert thing the toy. And so I'll put some kibble in his toy and then some treats. So I have this big box of treats where I've chopped them all down into little bits so they can forage for them. Often he doesn't finish the treats in the bowl. He's just like and done whatever. Often, treats will just hang around the house, and he won't eat them. So he's never, he's always just, you know, not being that fixated on food after he felt secure. After we fit, you know, I fed him after he was rescued, because obviously, he was thin and thin and abused or baby. So yeah, anyway, this is what everyone else says. But also also also also, the other thing is some, you know, some I know, I've only had experience with Google and a cat. Google is a puppy on Pomeranian sausage dog, Border Collie, mutt thing?

Unknown Speaker 31:03

Who the fuck knows? Basically, I don't know what he is. And I know some breeds are hyper focused on food and some breeds will eat. But I'm curious.

Unknown Speaker 31:16

If say if those those dogs those dogs that would eat any say if you put it in the dog in like a warehouse with like a 20 tons of kibble, and wet food and all that type of stuff. Would that dog eat themselves to death? I don't know. Or would that dog be like,

Unknown Speaker 31:39

just like she was like humans are when we're denied food. And then we eventually

Unknown Speaker 31:44

give ourselves permission to eat food. We'd be like, Oh, my God, that was Oh, that's too much.

Unknown Speaker 31:49

Give me more rules too much. And then eventually you be like, Oh, I'm done with that. Would would a dog be do that? Just be like, Oh my God, give me everything, eat everything and just you know, have a tummy ache. And you know, maybe they die from that because they told me exposure explodes is that thing? I don't know. Urban Legend time.

Unknown Speaker 32:08

So all would they come down? I have who the fuck knows? I don't know. I don't know. That's probably not an experiment that's going to happen, right?

Unknown Speaker 32:16

Anyway, so quote from someone I have thought about this myself. I wonder if we could if we control their diet, it results in non intuitive eating from them? Or if processed food isn't really intuitive eating for animals? Or if some animals are just bigger, and we have fat bias? I don't know the answer. And perhaps there are studies on it.

Unknown Speaker 32:38

Yeah, and that's the thing is some dogs are just naturally very thin like poodles, right? They're just like, and then turn. But then other dogs are just, you know, just tanks.

Unknown Speaker 32:50

And I think I think when we're thinking about fat pets, we're probably thinking about

Unknown Speaker 32:56

a fat poodle, you know, or even fatter, chunky, normally, chunky pet.

Unknown Speaker 33:05

Someone else says, pets aren't human. And they aren't, they aren't always able to intuitively eat some to intuitively eat some do. But many will eat anything, even if they're not hungry. Pets are not responsible for their food, health and well being. We are. Yeah, so that's absolutely right. You know, that's a thing as well with eating with pets. Sometimes I'll eat things which is not good for them, you know, whereas we can as humans make the decision. I'm not going to eat that thing. Or I'm going to eat that thing. That's not good for me because it makes my tummy upset. Or, you know, because it's plastic or whatever. I had to take Dougie to the vet because he swallowed some past plastic on a salmon skin. Chewy thing when I wasn't looking. And also he I call him The Bone Collector because he walks up bones. We have two chicken shops near me. People throw their chicken bones because I know that even though they're probably delicious, it's could could kill him if he gets a bone stuck in his throat. Yeah, anyway, wait also impacts animals differently than humans and can adversely affect their health and quality of life. I'm 100% Fat positive and about intuitive eating for people but pets are not comparable. Yeah, and that's the thing is like humans and humans and pets are just vastly different

Unknown Speaker 34:24

in many different ways.

Unknown Speaker 34:26

And I wonder, you know what I see.

Unknown Speaker 34:29

I watch a lot of animal rescue videos and you see these rescue videos where

Unknown Speaker 34:35

a dog is rescued and it's a very fat dog and then they're like, Billy's journey to lose 200 pounds and I'm like our poor Billy the burner doodle is fucking miserable life, being on a diet but also Billy, the burner doodle doesn't seem to be mobile and wants to be mobile. And half of it is them helping

Unknown Speaker 35:00

Billy the Bernie doodle. I'm making this up there is no, there probably is a billy the Boehner to do but I don't know. It's not an actual story. Half of it is rehabbing. Billy and Billy's ability to, to walk and run and play. And I'm like, Yeah, that's great, right? Like, if a dog wants to run and walk and play, and that's, you know, the submit that they're capable of doing, then let's help them you know, then, you know, a dog is not going to be like, Hey, I'm going to do some water aerobics so that I can increase my mobility, you know, they don't, they don't have that ability. And so I wonder, I wonder in things like that, whether we're focusing on the wrong things the same with humans, we're focusing on the way that not the outcomes, health outcomes, you know, like,

Unknown Speaker 35:54

and as well, all of these, they never in the story said, Oh, Billy, the burner doodle or you know, Sally, the sausage dog is, is fat and also because they are fat, here are the poor health outcomes outside of mobility. I've never seen that. But you know, this is this is anecdotal evidence. This is just me watching these videos. And so if we are thinking about pet health, should we just be focusing on health and not on putting pets on diets? I don't know. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, so, these are short, short replies.

Unknown Speaker 36:37

I love fat pets. I also acknowledged that my dog appears to have no sense of fullness cues. So dot dot dot, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 36:45

Woof. Well, we have a feeder that dispenses a certain amount of food each day for each pet. And that's it. We give them food based on what the vet says based on weight. I'm sure one of my cats will eat more if we let him but he also picks it up. Yeah, so that could be a you know, I feel like we know our pets and we know if they're the type that that eats more than is comfortable for them and then picks it up. Or if they are able to understand I've had enough and that feels good.

Unknown Speaker 37:20

Dogs are often over eating because of trauma at this point. It is probably impossible to try intuitive eating. Yeah, and so we do go Dougal was was, you know, a year at a show or whatever when I when I got him and so maybe that was a lucky time. Maybe an older dog, it wouldn't have worked.

Unknown Speaker 37:40

Someone else says we always have food available. He gets some scraps and he loves ice. I love it when you see dogs eating like ice and vegetables. Like dude, he's so fussy you will not eat anything like that. There's a coward that

Unknown Speaker 37:57

a go golden retriever and then a puppy golden retriever eats like broccoli and okra and bell peppers and they're just like munching away and crunch and crunch and crunch and it's so fucking cute. Different species equally equals totally different outset can't just transfer principles one on one.

Unknown Speaker 38:17

Cats there are so many ways to interfere already. It's hard not to have restrictions. Important to Office safe spaces play food enrichment, so they don't eat out of stress. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 38:34

Yeah, and I wonder if you know like, I wonder if there is an element of that that eating out of stress or? I don't know I don't know. I get food when they ask for it. Some of my cats are fatter than others and I'm cool with it.

Unknown Speaker 38:49

Only judge what pets are fed not how much because they have different nutritional needs.

Unknown Speaker 38:56

Yeah, like I would the only time I would judge what an animal is eating is if someone was putting an animal on like a vegan diet because as far as I'm aware cats are carnivores and need me right. So but I would not judge you know how how people who were houseless have pets and I just think let them have her let them have pets because they're probably looked after better than a lot of pets who are with in homes, you know, because they with them all day long and they're wonderful companions and

Unknown Speaker 39:36

and if that means someone who has doesn't have as much access to to money, feed some that the pets

Unknown Speaker 39:46

lower quality food. I think that's fine too, because we can't I don't think we can deny companionship to people who don't have the access to be able to feed their dog raw foods and

Unknown Speaker 40:00

and blueberries and quail eggs every morning. You know, if I gave Google that he'd say fuck off. I want to fucking quail egg. But you know I I wouldn't I wouldn't judge you know, unless it was a vegan imposing a vegan diet, then I would probably be like, That's not so great

Unknown Speaker 40:21

okay someone else says my dog would never stop eating she would barf and then keep going. It has happened. My cat has been fat shamed at the vet is the same person my cat has been fat shamed of it but she is the overlord of the house and insists food

Unknown Speaker 40:37

she insists food is always available she does not make herself sick. She has no health issues. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 40:45

Cats are funny.

Unknown Speaker 40:48

I have a lot of thoughts one the way people treat owners of fat pets especially if they are fat is rude. Yeah, agree to pets don't give it don't get to live that long with us. Is it really so bad to spoil them with tasty treats? Three there are many reasons pets are fat and it's okay. Health at Every Size. Well they say h a s but I think they mean Hey, je s how are you? They are their results

Unknown Speaker 41:14

I'm just glad I'm not the only one thinking about this honestly. Yeah, cuz I Googled this and it was people been like, I don't know I've been thinking about this. I don't know. Someone says I'm a haze registered Dieter, dietetic dietitian, dietitian, dietitian. Because I don't know dog health slash nutrition. I listened to my vet on having my dog lose weight. Yeah. Also, my dog has no fullness cute cute. This is the same person. He'll he'll he'll eat until he pukes and then eat the puke. Oh, God.

Unknown Speaker 41:47

That'd be like knowing that. Yeah. So you know, if if I had a dog like that, I probably and that was my only experience with a dog I probably like dogs can't intuitively like but because do these like that. And also friend of the show somewhere in an ENTJ friend of the show somewhere in and it has had a couple of dogs and she says that her dogs have been Intuitive Eating type dogs. I know you say we say intuitive eating really a dog. It's not like principle one principle to move your body but you know,

Unknown Speaker 42:19

meaning just free, free, free feeding.

Unknown Speaker 42:25

I have a fat cat. She gets shamed all the time. I tried to put her on a diet but it did nothing. So I'm letting her just live. And both of us are less stressed. I think that's a good point about the animals being stressed by it. And I know for

Unknown Speaker 42:41

we've Dougie any change in routine

Unknown Speaker 42:48

timing of things will just he's not happy about it. Like this weekend, I moved my bed to the other side of the wall so that my bed is not next to the wall of the neighbor's so that I can have more loud sex. And actually, you know what? I don't have sex that often. But really, it's actually so that if my vibrator is really loud, I don't hear it.

Unknown Speaker 43:13

So ya know, I changed it to the side of the wall. And then I switched which side of the bed I'm sleeping on. Duguay is not happy. I changed where his

Unknown Speaker 43:24

his ramp is. He has it doesn't have a ramp. He has like a poof but he jumps on to jump onto the bed is he's lost the ability to use the he's worked it out again. But now but he lost the ability to use the use a booth to jump up he was just like, whoa, hey, it's the same poof, the same bed, but it's in a slightly different location. So I cannot do it. Mother. What are you talking about? By the way, Dougie calls me mummy and mother because he doesn't understand about gender concepts. And he doesn't understand that I am a them non binary person. That's okay though. Because you know, he's a dog. So he calls my mother and mummy. So, and then during the night he's there, he's there trying to get into my where I'm sleeping. Like he's like, Get out of my spot. This is where I sleep. This is my side of the bed. And in the middle of the night just him just standing randomly like looking. And then I show him to where his side of the road is. And he's like, Okay, fine. No, this is where I'm gonna go. But anyway, so just a little thing like that. And he's like, what, what is the meaning of life? Is I'm guessing. Continuing animals have different relationships to food. And vets can be assholes. But fat pets are not oppressed. Exactly. Yeah. That pets are not oppressed, maybe fat pet owners and fat fat owners.

Unknown Speaker 44:44

And not the not the pets themselves. They need to eat they need to eat meat. dry food is terrible for them.

Unknown Speaker 44:52

I have three cats, three body types sizes. All are healthy because this wet food no restricting and

Unknown Speaker 45:00

The same for us. What do the tests say? Weight doesn't matter otherwise

Unknown Speaker 45:06

someone else says just leave fat pets alone with heart face. I free feed it absolutely works.

Unknown Speaker 45:14

Took my cat off weight loss formula ingredients were shit and making him sick and did not align with my views on fat and health. He is happier and healthier now. Love fat cats.

Unknown Speaker 45:27

Yeah, so, you know, we've got a range of opinions there. And

Unknown Speaker 45:32

I don't know I don't know. You know, I like looking at evidence and we don't have a lot of people doing research on intuitive eating and animals that I could find nothing that I could find. There's probably a lot of

Unknown Speaker 45:46

research on fatness how it's bad for for pets. But I wonder if

Unknown Speaker 45:57

I'm, you know, I don't wonder I presume that there's a lot of fat bias in there of the assumption that you know, fatness is debt is always bad. And the correlation and correlation and causation things not been thought about.

Unknown Speaker 46:12

The answer is who the fuck knows? Oh, no. He, like many come to the podcast with fucking answers. Give me Give me answers.

Unknown Speaker 46:23

You know what my expertise is in humans.

Unknown Speaker 46:28

I have a dog. I like him. He's great. He eats what he wants. And that's my experience. And, and also fatphobia anti fat bias is everywhere. And also, you know, you do you do what you think is best for your animal. And, you know, probably some things I do with Dougie, people will be like, You shouldn't do that. And other things. Other people will say you shouldn't do that, you know, like, yeah, we have we have strong opinions about how pets should be treated. Right? I know, some people will be very kind of, no, this is wrong. And that's wrong. And no, we shouldn't give them treats. And an I feel like we get very passionate about it. Right? Like, I can, I can get very good I can get I can get very judgmental when I don't like being judgmental when I see choke collars. You know, versus harnesses. And I'm always just like, oh,

Unknown Speaker 47:27

I don't think I don't think that the owner is like, I'm gonna hook this dog up, you know? And also if someone's shouting at a dog.

Unknown Speaker 47:35

Yeah, I judge them I judge people who shouted at dogs. But you know what I said to him, I said to my friend, you know what I was talking about talking about this me shout me judging people who shout and swear at dogs, because I had old neighbors from a couple of years ago who would absolute terrors. And they were eventually evicted, because they were just awful, awful, awful.

Unknown Speaker 47:57

And they would be like, shut the fuck up to the dog. And I was just like, I so was so awful. They say Shut the fuck up to the dog. And he was like, Oh, I have a parrot. And I tell my parrot to shut up. And I was like, Huh, okay, maybe, maybe they don't understand. You know, they don't understand that you're saying Shut the fuck up or fuck you or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 48:18

I don't know. I'm just I'm very sensitive. Very sensitive. And you know, I think about a lot of is

Unknown Speaker 48:26

I don't know if you saw it, but there was this thing where they had they people treated plants differently. And so they had these two plants in a school. One of the plants that said had to sign say say nice things to me. The other plan is, I'd say mean things to me. Same plant, same condition, one of the plants thrived and one with a Dwayne died. I don't know, this is something that's in my memory. I don't know how true that is. You know, I don't know if the you know, the kids would, you know, saying fuck you to the other plant and then put poisoning in one and who knows, but it just stuck with me that I wouldn't ever want to say mean things to animals or to plants. Like I say nice things to my plants, too. I'm like, You're so strong and big. Look at those beautiful leaves, just on the off chance that they're living.

Unknown Speaker 49:13

Yeah, I'm a bit of a bit of a baby. So.

Unknown Speaker 49:18

Okay, so final question, which is from Grace, who says hey, question, exclamation mark or not question mark, exclamation one. Funny question, Mark. It is me. I was wondering how to navigate family fat phobia. Fine. Thanks, says grace.

Unknown Speaker 49:37

So we've spoken about this a number of times on the show, you know what I feel like? We all forget what I've spoken about. I know I do. So I'm like, should I cover this topic? Again? I feel like I spoke about it like four years ago. Yes, of course. It's stuck in people's mind that you spoke about it like, you know, in 1982. Vinnie, you know, no, we should probably talk about it.

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Again, because it's coming up, I'm a new new listeners in the lower left. Okay, so I have a formula on how to deal with fat phobia anti fat bias in the world and with other humans. And that formula is remove, reduce, protect. So

Unknown Speaker 50:18

remove reduced protect, I have an Instagram post that has this information, I'll put it in the show notes.

Unknown Speaker 50:27

So if possible,

Unknown Speaker 50:30

we want to remove a source of anti fat bias from our life. And so what this looks like with using family as example,

Unknown Speaker 50:40

getting rid of removing that source of anti fat bias,

Unknown Speaker 50:45

does it mean that we're going to go around and murder the family? No, we're not. Today, we're going to

Unknown Speaker 50:54

aim to remove the source of anti fat bias by setting boundaries. So remove the exposure, if possible. So boundaries

Unknown Speaker 51:05

are hard. Literally, I've spent a zillion hours in therapy, getting

Unknown Speaker 51:14

confidence,

Unknown Speaker 51:16

and courage to be able to communicate with people my needs. And I think that's really important. And I'm doing that through all sorts of different ways and boundaries being one of them.

Unknown Speaker 51:28

And so with boundaries, it would be a case of hey, hey, mom, by the way.

Unknown Speaker 51:36

I don't know if you know, but you know, I'm doing this whole fat positive thing or intuitive eating thing or whatever. Or I'm learning to try and accept my body. And what I've noticed is that when people talk about their diets, or when people talk about fat as a negative, I get I get really activated and triggered by that. So I'm wondering if you could help me.

Unknown Speaker 51:57

Yes, what it is I can help with you with? Would it be possible for you to avoid talking about fat as a negative?

Unknown Speaker 52:06

And then see what happens.

Unknown Speaker 52:08

Mum, mum could be like,

Unknown Speaker 52:11

Oh, you're so sensitive. Oh, my goodness, you everything. I can't even say anything anything anymore. Or, oh my god, I'm so sorry. I'm such a bad person. And I'll try but it's just so hard. I just hate really hate myself. Or, yeah, okay. Or, you know, a million different varieties. The way that I like to frame it, this is my personal thing, but it might not work for you. Some people don't like it is saying I'm wondering if you can help me with something.

Unknown Speaker 52:40

When we frame it like that the people that we love with like ya, as long as it's not helping you move, because fuck no.

Unknown Speaker 52:47

Anyone asked me to help them to move don't care? No, no.

Unknown Speaker 52:51

No, I don't care if you're my best friend, I would pay a person to go and help you move, but I will not be doing it.

Unknown Speaker 53:00

Whenever we can help with if someone doesn't want, if you can help with something is not moving on? I'd say yes. What is it? And you could say, you know, make it like try not make it about them, if you think that they might react. And if you think you don't want to deal with it. And you can say I'm just asking everyone that I care about, not that you necessarily do this, but not talk about bodies.

Unknown Speaker 53:22

And so that might have that might be the easiest way to kind of like, gently tickle your toes into the water of boundary settings. Like making it about you. That might not be the most effective way to communicate. You know, you might decide that. No, I want to be authentic and say listen, Mom, you fucked up my life. You've, you are a giant piece of horseshit. And I hate you. I mean, that might be what feels authentic to you, that's fine, whatever.

Unknown Speaker 53:54

So can we remove the source through a boundary, you might decide to remove it by removing the person from your life.

Unknown Speaker 54:03

Sometimes that's not possible or appropriate or something you want to do. That's fine. What I've noticed is that

Unknown Speaker 54:12

many people, they'll start this journey and you know, like I mentioned before, like kind of being a teenager, you're kind of new, you're wobbly on your legs, you're like a, you know, this new skill that you're trying out and it's in it's in it's kind of difficult and your your family have known you as a dieter or somebody who doesn't like fatness for all of your life maybe. And so you come along and you say, Hey, I'm doing this new thing. And they they might think, yeah, okay, this will last 10 minutes. And so maybe your request is ignored. You might as well have never said it.

Unknown Speaker 54:45

And then you do something that's really important. And you follow up, when they when they slip up, you follow up and say, Hey, remember we had that conversation? And then you might decide, you know, I'm not I'm not set

Unknown Speaker 55:00

For this, I'm not interested, I don't want them in my life, I'm going to, I'm going to give them a consequence.

Unknown Speaker 55:06

And then they learn again, they learn, again, that you're serious about this. And the more that you keep doing this, and you could decide at any point I've had enough, you don't need to give them an unlimited amount chances. But the more they begin to know that new you as someone who doesn't put up with a shit, that someone who is not going to engage in it, right.

Unknown Speaker 55:27

You know, it's like, if you knew, you know, you, you, you go to the corner store, and you buy a pint of milk, and then you go one day and they say, we've got no milk, and then you go, Okay, we'll come back tomorrow. I told you, we've got no milk and you've learned well, you've always had milk, I've always come here for milk, and then you go, you might try again next week, listen, we've got no milk, and probably take a little time to get used to the fact that that now the corner store sells something else.

Unknown Speaker 55:54

And it's something that's more emotive than milk. So remove reduce, you might not be able to set boundaries for whatever reason, you might not be interested in that it might not be safe,

Unknown Speaker 56:05

for whatever reason. And so can you reduce your exposure to these people? Or the comments? So for example, your mum starts saying, Oh, my God, did you see how fat Sharon is? And you can say, Oh, I'm just gonna go to the toilet. Oh, the back in a second? Or? Oh, is that given me a ring? Hello, who's that on the phone?

Unknown Speaker 56:27

Or you could say, you know, go back into the move. Hey, Mom, can you not talking about how Sharon is fat. So if you go around your mom's house for the weekend, maybe you can go every other weekend. Or maybe you can spend one hour or two hours with them. And then finally protect so in this example of family,

Unknown Speaker 56:44

safe, you can't reduce, you can't remove, you can't reduce because you live with them. And they financially support you. And

Unknown Speaker 56:52

you've tried tactics, and it's not working. And so then the next thing is protect, can you protect yourself? Can you

Unknown Speaker 57:03

engage in self care? Spend time reviewing fat positive resources to feel good put headphones in? Or leave the room?

Unknown Speaker 57:12

During diet talk?

Unknown Speaker 57:15

Can you be browsing Instagram fat, positive space spaces or Facebook groups, posting in, you know, a grouping like my mum is talking about if I can have fat Sharon isn't It's getting on my tits, something like that. So protecting yourself. Yeah. So gold star is remove if possible, reduce if you can't remove and protect if you can't reduce and remove. And it could be like today that you're protecting yourself. And then tomorrow, you might decide I'm going to remove that anti fat bias, if possible. Again, not all of these are possible at all times in all circumstances and might not feel right for you. So and as well just to recognize that if you're newer to this anti fat, bias world understanding about it, then it's going to be a lot harder. For someone like me, I don't often have to set boundaries, I don't have to talk to my family and friends about not being dicks because I'm because we've we've come to, you know, the real decks in my life are no longer in my life. And people who loved and care for me and committed to having a good relationship with me are and other people were great and excited to do this. And some people were already there. And I'm like you know Vinnie, finally you're into, you know, learning about this stuff. So I have that privilege of being years into this work,

Unknown Speaker 58:38

and years into therapy, to say that this is no longer a big challenge for me. But for people who are new to this work, this is one of the main challenges. It is a huge, it is for some people, the biggest area of of difficulty in this work, like they're, they're, you know, they've done the work, they feel good. And every time they're exposed to family members, or these other friends or whatever. They're being brought down again and again and again. And that's really difficult. So you know, if that is you, then I'm sending you big, giant, big, fat, big fat hugs and love to hear and to let you know that the more that you do this work, the more that you speak about what you're doing, the easier this is going to get. And that goes for all aspects of this, of this journey. There's always going to be things that come up in our lives that trigger us and make us take a step back and, you know, feel bad and but genuinely speaking with we're, we're we're growing those muscles in our brain to be able to, to resist this bullshit and to really, really internalize that. This is not our shame to hold. This is not our shame to hold and really believe that. So I hope everyone is getting getting there and feeling good.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

Did somebody else is going to tell you? I don't know what it was probably something a movie then I

Unknown Speaker 1:00:08

can't remember it was. Anyway, that's the question for today if you have questions for the show, you can always email me. When you get an email from the show telling you what the show is you can just respond and be like bla bla blue blue Vinny. Show notes will be at first fatty.com forward slash 169 with a transcript. If you enjoyed the show, consider donating on kofi KOF. I link in the show notes. And if you subscribe for five American adult hairs a month you will get the size diversity resource guide the different tiers there for you if you want to

Unknown Speaker 1:00:48

donate any more money, more money, you'll get other coolship We love cool shit, right Kofi for that. Thanks for hanging around me today. Stay fares, fatty and I'll see you in a while again. I gotta be.

Episode 168 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 168 We're getting plastic surgery mean I'm anti fat we got some listener questions today. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 0:26

Hello and welcome first fatties and fat allies. excited to have you here. I just had a sip of tea. And it was the most perfect sip of tea. Perfect temperature. Perfect amount of steeped. Oh, yeah, I think we're gonna have to cancel the podcast so I can just sip on this. Hey, it's magnificent. To put the let's put the lid on so we can keep the perfect temperature. I've got a yeti mug that was given to me. I never thought about anything to do with, you know, fancy mugs before. It's expensive. It's like 40 bucks. Sounds expensive to me. It is amazing. is live. Honestly, it is life changing. If you're on the wall about getting a yeti mug, I don't know if I'm new to this mug game thing. Or people are like, yeah, he's old news, or there's better ones and yet either a cheaper, whatever. But this year, he, you know, I'm telling people about it. I've had it for a few months now. And it's just perfection to the point where I don't even use any of the mugs in my house anymore. Anyway, today's episode, we've got some listener questions. We've got so many I'm gonna do a double episode. So listener question. Next week two, I sent an email out saying hey, what questions you got? And you responded, so if you're not on my email list? Oh, dang, I think we got I don't know, maybe 6000 7000 5000 A million? I don't know. 675 1000, something like that. On there. And so yeah, if you're not already an email subscriber, go to my website and just sign up for any of the freebies, and you'll become a subscriber will become a subscription. And you'll get an email every week with what the podcast is. So that's good. And you'll also get random emails like me saying, here's a picture of a dog and tell me your questions and stuff like that. So yeah, so where we're at with the cofee if you know, listening to the podcast, I've been doing like a Patreon type thing. But it's called cofee is better than Patreon. And the goal is to get to $680 hairs a month, $680 a month in order to pay for the podcast. And so that's four episodes a month, this month, the last 30 days we are at $285 hairs. So where are we? We, we I want to get to 680 and so we're episode 168 Now, so 160 for episode 106 For we're at 26 subscriptions, that's 26 people, which was 170 a month at episode 166. So two episodes later, we're at 27 subscriptions and 175 a month and now 168 We're at 29 subscriptions and 185 a month so I said 295 Because then we've got some one off donations 200 bucks a one off donation so if you subscribe you get loads of cool shit. I'm thinking as well as well adding in so we've got the size diversity Resource Guide which is moving actually do we already have that in there? Often double check. Yeah, no I think already have Yeah, I did put clothes in I was gonna say unless I didn't the clothes one because I've got myself and my VA for years have been working on this thing. Honestly, years been working on it and we've got clothes in there and there's lists of hundreds of places to shop. Their price range, links to the website. What type of clothes they are lalalala so it's amazing. You can get that for five bucks as a subscription. What are you waiting for? God. All right, so questions. Just a quick apology lasts last podcast I think it was a bit of loud because I had all my windows open because it's getting haich O T warm in Vancouver. So I'm on my way There's open. But I have less windows open today and a fan on me. And also I'm wearing less clothes, so he's not gonna be as loud. Or maybe my video editor made it sound less loud. I don't know, maybe you might be like, What the fuck are you doing, buddy? We just heard your voice. But anyway, if you've got a question for the show, you can always email me. Vinny at first fatty.com, I can't guarantee that I will answer all the questions because some of them might be things that I just covered or, you know, covered in the last episode or whatever. And you just haven't not to have known that. That's what I was talking about. And also, sometimes when people are emailing me, they, a lot of people don't ask, ask an actual question. So tell me about this, like, big complicated story. And I'm like, okay, okay. Okay. Okay. And then they don't have a question. Like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know what the question is about this. So I can't answer the question. If there's no questions and make sure if your question is not on answered in this episode, if you want to reply back, and then add a question to your whatever you're saying, versus just a statement, beautiful love that. I think maybe sometimes people forget. And they're just like, This is what's happening in my life. And it's easy to forget, maybe. Okay, so we're going to start with a question from Jennifer, who says, This is so deep. So I read these questions, and I thought about them for a day. And some of them I was like, the stick in my mind. And so I'm like, they're juicy. I need to, I need to ask answer them. Okay, so, Hi, buddy. I'm comfortable with my fat body. But after years and years, and years of weight cycling, I have significant skin laxity under my chin, slash neck and arms. I've done so much work around fat acceptance and loving my body, as it is that I'm thinking of getting plastic surgery. I just want to feel like I look like my age and can confidently wear my gorgeous plus size clothes. How can I have plastic surgery and still be fat and body positive? Thank you so much. So excellent question from jet naffaa. This is really good. And I have so much compassion for how you're feeling right now. And I'm I'm really sorry that you're you're struggling, Jennifer. Sounds really difficult. And so first off, it's your body. You can do whatever the fuck you like to it, right? So I don't think that you're seeking my permission or anything. But just like an FYI. If anyone's listening, thinking like, do we have videos permission? Like you were probably right there. You're probably everyday being like, so I have videos permission, definitely what you're thinking. But you do what you want to your own body. No one else gets to say, right. But I think the question is, how can I have plastic surgery and still be fat and body positive. So So that's it. Let's break this down. So Jennifer has said, I've done so much work around fat acceptance and loving my body as it is. And previous to that. Jennifer said it's been I was weight cycling for years and years and years. Which leads me to believe that most of Jennifer's life was was weight cycling, right. And more recently, it's been stopping the dieting becoming fat positive. And all that jazz. Right? And I'm not sure how long so let's presume you're my age of No. 38. However older I'm on with it. You hate your fitness. Yeah, yeah. Well, so I'm gonna say seven. So yeah. He until you, let's presume you're 14 and average age. Would that be the average age? I guess people live to like, close to 90 now. Right? So let's say 44. Who the fuck knows anyway, so that means theoretically, you might have been dieting for 2030 years. And that means theoretically, you've stopped dieting for maybe a handful of years. So let's just make those assumptions because we're not sure exactly. So that means that you have had decades of believing and being in doctrine indoctrinated heavily into dieting is good fatness is bad, right. And then we've had a little bit of time, however much it is. And in that time, you could have done a lot of stuff, but a little bit of time compared to the time of the anti fat indoctrination. It's It's kind And of if we think about

Speaker 1 10:03

the scale, you know, like one side is the anti fat stuff. And then one side is the fat positive stuff, the anti fat stuff is really outweighing the fat positive stuff, right? And not saying that you need to have another, you know, 1020 3040 years of fat positivity before you feel more confident. But just like a heads up of, there's a lot that you went through, right? That's a lot of programming and a lot of time believing something. And then comparatively, a shorter time where you we, you've changed your mind. And so giving ourselves that patience, and as well, the thing is, I talked about this in the cults episode, I did an episode on cults, and diet, culture being a cult. When you leave most cults, society as a whole is like, oh, thank Fuck, you're out of that, that was really harmful for you. Well, we that sucks. How can we help you recover? Generally speaking, very generally speaking. Whereas diet culture, when you leave that cult, people are like, you should get back in? Why are you leaving that cold? That cold was good for you just try harder in the cold. So it's not like you're walking into this welcoming world. You're walking into a world which has pockets of welcoming and the fat positivity and anti diet communities. But most of it is, you know, telling you should go back in to anti fatness and diet culture. So our environment is not that supportive. Versus other instances of being convinced about a certain way of thinking. So when you say, I've done so much work around for acceptance and loving my body as it is, that's what Jennifer says, I wonder what that means exactly. Like what is significant work? Is it that you've gone to therapy for years, and you've you've enrolled in our fat positive course or you've learned intuitive eating with a health every size dietitian or you've read lots of books and podcasts and things like that. And I wonder if, as well, you've done a lot of stuff around focusing on skin positivity, and fat arms and fat chins, or wherever a lot of the stuff that you might be looking at is fat people in in socially acceptable fat body. So Young, fat people, smaller fat people, white fat people, non disabled, fat people, etc. And I'm thinking, you know, because a lot of a lot of clients, when I talk to them, I'll say, So tell me, you know, like, tell me what you're surrounded by like, what what types of things do you do you watch what types of people do you follow? And they'll say, oh, yeah, I follow a lot of really diverse people. And so I say, let's do a little experiment. Let's take out your phone and tell me out of the first 10 posts that come up on whatever app that you're using, like Instagram normally. What types of bodies are you seeing? And often they'll say, Oh, we've got a thin white dietician here, but they are intuitive eating. So that's good. Yeah, that's good. We've got another thin white dietitian, we've got a plus size model, we've got a post about recipes. And so it will kind of be a mix of things. It won't be that radical, fat liberation stuff. It won't be like, Oh, here's a quid disabled black content creator who talks about colorism and oh, the next poster is a fat dietitian who is autistic and talks about food insecurity and racism in, in food production, you know, right. And so people kind of go in a little bit light, which is fine, which is you know, is you we don't normally go into a new movement and be like, Okay, give me all the the most radical things because we don't know about it, it's maybe I'm gonna be a little bit overwhelming, a little bit scary. Because, you know, we're still tied to diet culture. And so a lot of the times, seeing people who are in bodies that are a little bit less confronting, it's easier to get information from them. That's why we have a lot of thin white non disabled, dieticians who have big platforms because they're not they help us buy into anti fatness, but in a way that is less anti fat than In a dietitian, who is straight out fat phobic, right? You know, we're still kind of in our brain. So they might, they might not be saying anything anti fat, they might be fat positive themselves, but they might be. In the back of our brains were thinking, ooh, if we follow, they say, maybe I'll become thin, you know, it's like an unconscious thing. So anyway, anyway, anyway, anyway, so I don't know the answers to this fit for Jennifer of how much what is I've been? I've done so much work around fat acceptance, and like, what does that mean? And as well with skin elasticity, is that something that, you know, there's lots of there's different accounts of people who talk about that, and differences with skin and, and people who have conditions, there's one person that I'm thinking of, and I can't remember their handle. And they have a condition where they age prematurely. And so their skin has a tons of elasticity. And she's like, famous and loves her skin now. But not saying that you have to do that. So I'm just curious. I'm just, I'm just curious around that stuff. What does that mean? And Jennifer might be listening, being like, Vinny, I've done all of that stuff, Liz. Hey, yeah, I've been in therapy for years. Lyza, and I've done so much stuff. Great, perfect, wonderful. And also even you haven't, that's fine, right. And also, here's another thing that people get into is I talked about it spoked I spoke about it last episode, which is Constant Learner mode, which is doing a lot of reading and listening and absorbing information, which is beautiful, love it. But also, we need to take action because we cannot learn to embody confidence or, or bravery without also taking action and action in a way that is supportive. So not, you know, going and doing something that's super scary and traumatizing. And I use the example if you wanted to learn how to swim, you could read lots of books about it. But there's no way that you know how to swim unless you actually got into the water. But don't jump into the deep end because you might drown. And you might traumatize yourself, but support yourself by going to the shallow end and just tinkling your toes a little bit. So have you been doing that stuff? The the action too? Have you been setting goals around like, Okay, I'm gonna I know, wear a sleeveless top for 10 minutes while I pick up a pint of milk or whatever, and then run back in and be like, Oh, God, you know, something like that. So Jennifer says, But I'm thinking of getting plastic surgery, even though Jennifer's done a lot of work. So the work hasn't work you've done hasn't helped you remove that distress that you're feeling when you see your skin, which is you know, it's It's distressing. And I use that word distressing, you know, to to, to get plastic surgery. I know it you know, I'd not I don't know I've not had surgery. But you know, from what I know about any type of surgery, it's a big thing. So it makes me think that this is something that's really distressing for you, right? And the question to consider is how much do we can continue to work on fat acceptance, before we use body modification? There is no kind of everyone might be different and there's no right or wrong thing. So for some people, it's zero work, right? Some people engage in body modification, if they don't like themselves and not coming from a, from a positive body modification, you know, coming from, I don't like myself, or not something that's gender affirmation or anything like that. But so say in in Jennifer situation, someone and Jennifer situation, they might decide to do zero work, and then also get plastic surgery. And that's fine, right. And for some time, for some people, it could be a lifetime of work, and then deciding, you know, I'm not going to get surgery because, you know, due to due to the principle of what that would mean is that I'm buying into anti fatness. And also, you know, I've decided to surgery is too risky for me or whatever. And I have decided that I'm able to live with my body the way it is, my distress is not so much that I can't live with it. But for some people, it's too distressing and it's not a possibility to live with it. Right. So, wherever you're at on that spectrum, you know, everyone's gonna be different, right? So I feel like you know, there's there's the pros and the cons of having surgery, right.

Speaker 1 19:46

You know, the one side we go back to the scales on one side, you've got all the distress that this is causing you. So you so you've said you, you we've not said I don't like My self, you just said I'm thinking about getting plastic surgery. And then on the other side, I just want to feel like I look my age. Okay? So you want to look your age and so on the other side of that, that might be ageism. Right? And then one side is, okay, if I get the surgery, Jennifer says, I can confidently wear my gorgeous plus size clothes. And I just want to say, ask, is that true? Or will there maybe be something else that comes up? Or are you like, no, it's just, it's just this loose skin. It's nothing else. I know that this is not going to be a, I get this. And then I say, oh, no, my tummies too big. And then I get that. And then I say, Oh, no. And that might be a clue that maybe spending a little bit more time with your mental health might be helpful. And so yeah, I think about, you know, on the the pros and cons for doing this. And what is stopping you from having the surgery? I'm not saying you should have the surgery. Surgery is good. But you know, what is it? Is it? The question is, can I have plastic surgery and still be fat and body positive? Is is it shame? Is it fear of letting the community down? Is it fear that people are going to reject you, the people that you respect the fat positive people that they're going to say, oh, no, Jennifer's gone and had this surgery, this means that she hates fat people. Is that Is that what's stopping you? Or is there something else? Because you know, people are gonna judge you, right? People are going to people who were not fat, perfect positive, we're going to judge you people who are fat positive, we're going to judge you, people who are fat positive, we're going to say that's cool that you did something for yourself. And people who were not fat positive will say the same thing. Right? So other people's opinions don't really matter. So I wonder like, what this is about? Like, why? Like, what is it that you need? What is it you need to hear? Anything is right, we all engage in body modifications to feel more confident, and more like ourselves for many different reasons. And some of those reasons are based on anti fat beliefs. Some of those reasons are to appease the patriarchy or white supremacy, and some are due to things like gender dysphoria or gender confirmation. And it's complicated, right? And there's some ways that we view view, body modification is just no big deal. And other ways. It's seen as betraying yourself or betraying goodness, you know, or being morally morally superior that I don't crumble to crumble under the weight of anti fatness, or ageism, or beauty ideals, right? And that kind of moral superiority that some people might feel because of that. So your question, how can I have plastic surgery and still be fat and body positive? Something that came up when I read that is, is when I was on the BBC, I was on a BBC show, and one of my fellow hat fat, happy fat people got a lot of criticism because she wears a lot of makeup. She looks amazing. And people were saying, Well, how can you really love yourself if you wear makeup? Like, expressing herself with makeup meant that she hated fat people or didn't like herself? And I was just like, What was one got to do with the other? What beliefs would you maybe need to hold? If you had this surgery? Like, what? What is behind this? Is it? Is it anti fatness? Is it a way to express yourself? Is it a way for you to feel more at home in your body. And if it's something like I don't like the look of this skin, because it makes me look bigger, or it's bad. And I'm bad because of it. That could be beliefs that are based in bias. And so that's an opportunity to overcome those beliefs because that bias is not going to go away with surgery, but you could feel a lot more comfortable. And also something to consider is that what we do to try and survive and thrive in this violently fat phobic world is our business, right? If you need to do you know anything Jennifer to thrive and survive? Really, people don't get to have a say, right. It's up to you. So, you know, if you don't already I would suggest having a chat with a therapist. I mean, I think everyone should be able to have access to support with mental health. You might not be able to access that. But, you know, even if it's like why, what is my hesitation and working through that type of stuff? Yeah. So, so so so so so so, and then if you do get the surgery, you know, it's got nothing to do with me or anyone else. And when I think about loose skin Going on arms. And under the chin. I just, you know what I think about, I think about all of the awesome videos that you could make with hilarious messages, right? Like I think about, like, if you had your arm out, and you had loose skin, you could like tuck it behind your arm. And then you could be like, This is what I say to people who think that my loose skin is is bad. And then you could N release the arm flap. And so then then on the arm flap, you could say something like, fuck you. I just think about stuff like that, and people embracing that stuff. Or, you know, when people will do their thing under the chin, and they'll have a fuck you, you know, and so be like, oh, you should be more prettier or whatever. And then they do their double chairman, and then the fuck you comes out. I need to do I need to make a post like that. I just think iconic, iconic. So, you know, maybe there's a way for you to embrace this and turn this into your thing. And be like, yeah, man, I've got these fucking amazing, like wings on my arms. And, and like this, this this call neck and, and you know what it is, this feels like, this feels like my survival. This is This shows what i've what, what my brain has been through what my body has been through, and I'm still here, my body is still rocking and surviving. And that might be helpful. Or not, you're gonna be like, No, that's no. I'm not making a video with my arm flap. And, you know, putting it down and it's saying fuck you. That's not my thing. Yeah, so. So anyway, Jennifer, you do you? You do you? And I think I think you probably already would have thought about this already. If you do have the surgery. I think that a big thing would mean not not to be like, Hey, everybody, look at me and my, my smaller arms and I'm great. And you're not, you know, or, Hey, you should get surgery. And I don't think that would be at all. Anything that Jennifer would do. Because obviously Jennifer's question is, it's thoughtful. But you know, if anyone else is out there being like, I'm gonna decide to turn into a dick. If I have smaller arms. Maybe don't know it. My listeners would do that. No, because you're all amazing. Another sip of that delicious tea, which is still at the perfect temperature because I put the lid on. Again. Next question is from Haley. One question I have is how to incorporate the word fat as a neutral descriptor in conversation. And also a few quick responses or phrases to say when people wince at the use of the word, or try to change the word for their comfort. Thanks, Haley. Yeah, I see this all the time. Especially when I'm doing training, which is not necessarily related to fatness because I do dei training, diversity, equity and inclusion training. And then when we get to the fat section, and I talk about fat stuff, or I say, my business is called first fatty, or I describe myself as fat, you could see people being like, don't say that. You're not fat, you're British, you're on fucking bears. And so I always say, you, hey, you may have heard me use the word fat, just so that you're aware fat is a neutral descriptor. And it is something that the fat liberation community has reclaimed. And it doesn't mean any of the negative things that we've been told that it means. So that's my quick and quick and quick and dirty thing. But if I was in conversation with someone, I would just be using the word fat. I would just be you know, if, I mean, if anyone asked me what I did, or whatever. And if you are, he says how can I incorporate the word fat as a neutral descriptor? If you get the chance to talk about fatness, just do it, just do it. And, and even if people don't react, just be like, Hey, by the way, just so you know, I'm not being a dick. Fat is a neutral word. And it's no big deal. And what I also say is, if I say, if you're not yet comfortable with this word, and this user using his word for yourself, there's alternative words that you can use that aren't stigmatizing, like higher weight or bigger body. What we do need to avoid is using the O words and then you can educate them on what the O words are, if people don't know it's obese and overweight, and why they're problematic. Another thing that I like doing is I like asking people questions. Like why? Why Why should we say that? Was mean, why do you? Do you think that being fat is bad? Well,

Speaker 1 29:40

no, but it's a mean word. Why? What do you hear when I say the word fat? Oh, I hear like, an attractive. Is it unattractive to be fat? Well, no. But isn't that what you're saying? When you say fat? No, I'm using it as a neutral descriptor and by using it, it's losing all of that. negative power that has historically been thrust behind that word. By using it, I am reclaiming it and just using it as a neutral or even positive descriptor. I'm fat. I love being fat. There's nothing wrong with the word fat. And if people want to say that someone is ugly or unhealthy, or lazy or whatever, then they can use those words. Well, that sounds like a very unkind person. I know you're not an unkind person. So let's just get used to the sign the word face, and it's an it's a word that we're gonna be using moving forward. So, you know, it's 2023. And this is the language that we're using now. Yeah, another one, like one of my favorite times when someone was like, don't say that as a singing group, and someone said, Oh, Vinny has a book out this week called fast, fatty. And they were like, and I said, Yeah, what they said, Why did you call it that? Oh, because I'm fat. And you know, it's amazing to be fat. I said, You're not fat. I said, I am. And they were like, No, you're not. And so I lifted my shirt, grabbed my belly and said, Am I not? What is this then? And they were their brain was like, oh, like, power down? Don't know what to do. Because they didn't want to say, yes, you're fat because in their mind, they were saying yes, you're unattractive. Yes. You're horrible. Yes, you're lazy. Yes. You're Lala. Right. And, and then, you know, after, you know, I was like, hey, it's a neutral word, blah, blah, blah. So and then maybe that stuck with them? Maybe? Maybe they're terrified of ever meeting another fact of it because they might show their value to them. But yeah, for me, it's kind of just getting curious and then just talking to people. Yeah. Okay. So, question from Amanda. Hi, Vinny. I absolutely adore you. Thank you. And the face value podcast a fine girl. Here's my situation slash question. I was recently diagnosed with diabetes, listening to amazing fat positive resources. Like first fatty has taught me that a diagnosis like this isn't about my weight. You're right, as thin people can have diabetes too. Absolutely. And not all fat people have diabetes nail on the head Amanda. However, my doctor seems to disagree and blamed everything on the O word. Even though I brought up my family history. I've been going to this doctor for a long time and have generally trusted her but her delivery of this news really threw me for a loop. I'm having a hard time reconciling information from a doctor. I usually trust with information I've heard from well researched books and podcasts about how Oh word is bullshit. How do we trust our healthcare providers when the majority of them still believe in the outdated racist sexist BMI? By the way, the first thing she said after giving me my diagnosis was good news. You can take a Zen pick which will help with weight I think she expected me to be excited but I'm proud of myself for being weeded out instead. Yes, thank you so much for making this world a better place for fatties, Amanda Thank you Amanda. Susan, lovely words. And oh my goodness, I am so sorry. This happened to you. Having a type two diabetes diagnosis, diagnosis at the best of times as a fat person is potentially traumatizing triggering distressing, difficult, scary, but then having a diagnosis from a doctor who is committed to spreading anti fat bias. Non evidence based care and fucking just bullshit is is worse, right? Luckily, you were equipped when you went in there with that amazing brain of yours to say, Ah, this is like bullshit. So, like bullshit. Could it be a budget? Yes, yes, yes, that's what it is. Your doctor sounds like a donkey. Really? Honestly, I swear by like, I don't you know, I just I genuinely don't understand because I'm thinking if I was a doctor, and I was telling someone a diagnosis, I would be like hey, you know I'm so sorry this has happened and this get you feeling better or whatever. I can't imagine being like, this is your fault, fatty. Maybe when I was really anti fat, honestly, you can see that if I when I used to be really anti fat I can Imagine being on a high horse being like, Hmm, they did this to themselves and getting self esteem from telling them off. I can imagine. Yeah, I used to get a lot of self esteem from feeling superior to others for things I deemed bad. Yeah, so even if fatness caused diabetes, then she still shouldn't have shamed you. As we know that shame is not good for our physical or mental health. So for those who are not as informed as Amanda on on diabetes, I want to encourage you to go to Hayes health sheets and go to the diabetes one, so it's just scroll down and look at the health sheets, but I'll give you a little give you a little taste and so they have lots of different diagnosis that are associated with fatness. We don't know that they are caused by fatness. And so they're the one on type three diabetes. So what is it type three diabetes is a condition that keeps your body from properly pre processing glucose leading to a buildup of glucose in the blood. diabetes occurs when the cells in the body have difficulty using insulin to turn glucose into fuel. And when the pancreas and organ near the stomach and intestine does not make enough insulin, what causes it? A number of factors can contribute to an increase risk of type two diabetes including weight cycling, yo yo dieting. Okay, any dieting and internalized weight stigma, but type two diabetes is predominantly a genetic condition. So Amanda was saying it's, you know, it's in my, it's in my family. But I was like, while much fat phobic and misinformation floats around, you cannot eat your way into type two diabetes, and it affects people of all sizes, let me repeat that is predominantly predominantly predominant, have forgotten how to speak predominantly a genetic condition, and you cannot eat your way into type two diabetes. Getting type two diabetes isn't your fault. It does not indicate that you have done anything wrong. It is simply a fairly common health condition. So this sheet goes on to how was it diagnosed? How was it treated? What is What about pre diabetes? I'm going to read the pre diabetes thing here because most people might not know about pre diabetes. In a nutshell, it's dogshit. pre diabetes is a controversial diagnosis that was strongly lobbied for by who do we think lobbied for this diagnosis? Get your guesses in come and shout them out to me who might have lobbied for for this diagnosis to be created? Did you say pharmaceutical companies? Yes, yes. So surely a lot lobbied for by pharmaceutical companies which are currently developing at least 10 drugs to treat this condition. Important things to know when discussing the validity of a pre diabetes diagnosis is that the American Diabetes Association lowered the blood sugar threshold that is considered pre diabetic in 2004 and lowered the hemoglobin a one C threshold in 2010, creating about 72 million new cases in the US. These changes were made without adequate research evidence, and were later adopted by the Centers for Disease Control. The CDC, under the newest definition of pre diabetes, about one in three people in the US is considered to be pre diabetic. The majority of people with pre diabetes do not progress to type two diabetes. And that number is, is tiny. I can't remember it now. It's like, is it 4% or 2%? Let's be generous and say 5%. That's how, you know a tiny percent of people will progress to having type two diabetes because it's a it's a bullshit condition. There's no clear evidence that treatment for pre diabetes impacts progression to diabetes. Studies have not shown an increased risk of cardiovascular disease in those with pre diabetes and there is no clear evidence that treating pre diabetes will decrease the risk of progression to diabetes.

Speaker 1 39:37

So talks about how diabetes is treated it all the different things you know, none of them saying lose weight. So at the end overall, blood sugar is complicated and it can be affected by many factors including sleep and stress. Try to look at your treatment plan as an exploration of how your body works and how If you can best support it rather than a reason to become obsessed with numbers, and testing, learning to trust the body become familiar with its internal cues, and focusing on behaviors rather than weight are crucial for improved health outcomes. It's important to know that type two diabetes can also be a progressive condition. That means that it's possible that what works now may become less effective over time. Remember that this is not your fault. It's just part of your health condition. And your healthcare provider can support you in finding new solutions. So imagine, imagine if you went to the doctor, and you heard that type of stuff, if you're diagnosed with type two diabetes is not your fault is largely a genetic condition. You can't eat your way into diabetes. And how we're going to treat it is we're going to treat it the same way that we will treat if you are a small bodied person, right? And this question is, how do we trust our health care providers? When the majority of them still believed in outdated, racist, sexist be in mind? Well, we can always, especially if we have other marginalized identities on top of that, especially if they happily and proudly espouse anti fat beliefs, it's hard to trust providers who say that, you know, do those things. And like, my doctor is anti fat. And luckily, she doesn't bring it up that much. And luckily, I have the, that, that level of knowledge that I can observe her saying these things and just be like, Huh, that's interesting that she's saying that, like, she's just, she's just saying it, because that's just her script, that's her spiel of, you know, to fix this condition, you need to lose weight, and you need to do this and that. And like, I just think it's just, you know, just automatic. And I just think about her brain and how she must think about herself. I'm kind of like, more able to observe versus internalize. And also understand that she still knows she knows a lot, right? She's able to prescribe me the things I need. And also, I'm able to know if she prescribes me weight loss, that is not an effective treatment. And so I can just be like, Okay, well, that one treatment suggestion, that's not for me. What are the suggestions? If we got? I'll do those other things. Thank you. So it's kind of like you have to edit, edit out, which sucks, right? I mean, it would be amazing. If you could find a fat positive provider, chances of that happening. There are there are fat positive people out there. And the training will be trained, we'll be changing the training that healthcare providers go through. I mean, I can train healthcare providers about this stuff. So it's not like every single healthcare provider in the world is like, Ah, I hate that people. A lot of them are, but some do exist. One thing you can do, by the way, if you don't know this, anyone listening is you can talk to Dr. Asha from the fat doctor who offers consultations. Dr. Asha cannot prescribe medicine cannot refer you to people, but will be able to talk to you about your condition, and what treatment could look like for you and how you might be able to go about asking your doctor. Also people can deep dive into fat positive diabetes resources if you want. Also, something else that you can do in a situation like this is protect yourself if you can, during before and after a session. So when I say protecting yourself, it could be that you have you talked to a friend beforehand and say hey, I'm really nervous about this. So you post to social media or when you're in a Facebook group, and you say, Hey, I'm really nervous about this. Any tips for me, when you go and you could have a patient advocate with you or a friend, you can have what I do is I will write out a list on my phone of the things that I want to talk about because I will get flustered in a doctor's because, you know, they'll, you know, they can come out and say anything at any point. And you know, my brain will like whoa, shut down. Not always but I will write down a list if I've got things that I need to say so that I can just refer to the list and not be you know, put off by anti fatness. Yeah, so think about how you could support yourself. Is it after the doctor's your appointment appointment? You need to go and have a nap. Do you need to go and text a friend and say I survived or do you need to make an appointment with Dr. Asha from the fact doctor to talk about the ball shit that you just experienced. Go to Dr. Ashes, Instagram, the fat doctor. And you can book sessions from the link in the bio Niner. Yeah, so thank you, Amanda. Thank you, Amanda, I'm sorry, you have to go through that. That's bullshit. It makes me think about when I got diagnosed with my thyroid, whatever it's called Hashimotos or whatever, you know, my thyroid doesn't work. It's slow. And the doctor said to me, Listen, this diagnosis is not an excuse for you to be fat, shouldn't say fat. She said their word. And I was like, I was there reeling from this diagnosis because I, you know, I didn't really know what it meant. And she was like, You're gonna have to take tablets for the rest of your life and your your body is attacking your thyroid. And I was just like, Oh, my God, I was really upset about it. And then she says, It's not this is not an excuse for you to be fat. And I was like, Bitch, I wasn't fat positive at the time. But I just saw what I've never not made an excuse to be fat. And what, just really stuck with me and I was just like, that is really rude. Anyway, it was just, you know, how how, you know, how they could have been supportive, that, you know, your doctor or my doctor could have been supportive and say, Hey, this sucks. I'm sorry that you've experienced that. It's a manageable condition versus me know, what I heard was like, you know, this is a terrible diagnosis. I wish I could go back to me there and be like, oh, you know, it's fine. Just take your tablets.

Speaker 1 46:43

And be d get some blood tests, you know, and that's my experience, right? Other people's experience might be different. Okay, so we have a question from Valerie. Hi, Vinny. Thanks for this opportunity is actually quite timely. I have a sensitive situation that has just happened a couple of days ago, and I need to help feedback input on an appropriate response. So I'm an artist and I work at several large long fairs during the summer months. The owner of the booth I'm currently working at only provides really cheap quality and sturdy chairs. I'm in a bigger body. So I always bring my own heavy duty quality major that is rated for me, mated more than three times my weight. I purchased two of them. They were expensive, but I considered it a wise investment in my health, safety and comfort. This year, my sister in law is working in the booth as well. She happens to be larger than me so I brought both my heavy duty chair so we both could eat us well. She's nowhere near the chairs weight capacity. But by the end of the first day of the for her chairs, front legs are bent and the chair seat was now slanted forward and low. I traded chairs with her but the end of the next day, the second chair was also bent. However, I also noticed that when she was sitting, her body was centered primarily the front edge of the chair where it sticks out like a diving board, instead of closer to the backrest where there is more structural support. This explained why the chairs bent. I didn't criticize her or shame her for what happened. But I've really had a hard time with this in my own head and thoughts. There are still two full weeks left of this fair and obviously we couldn't continue using the chairs. But we also couldn't use the ones provided in the booth. We went to Lowe's early the next morning before work and I bought two heavy duty camping chairs. They were even they were even more expensive than my original chairs, which sadly are now trash. And since I'm currently broke, I don't get paid till after the end of the fair as you had to borrow money from my mum to pay for the chairs. My sister in law has not offered to help with the cost of buying new chairs. And at this time, I don't know if it's even appropriate for me to ask her to do so. I'm distressed about this whole thing. I feel so angry. And at the same time I feel so ashamed for feeling this anger because it is body focused. But also I think I might be less upset if she had even offered to help contribute to the cost of new chairs. Please, Vinnie, I would greatly appreciate your perspective and input on this heart. Thanks, Valerie. Oh, wow. I am so sorry. This happened to you, Valerie. And reading your your response. It sounds like there's there's potentially a few things that are bothering you here. And so you know first off, you are not provided seating at the fairs and you have to buy your own. This is not appropriate. It is not okay that you are not provided the equipment that you need to do your job. Even if you were just visiting the fair and you weren't working the fair is appropriate to expect seating that accommodate you of body. And the fact that you have to go out and buy it is not okay. So for me, I'd already be, I'd be, I'd be cheesed by that. And I know, you know, like, it's an investment, and you can use it for other fairs. And too, but if it was me, I'd already be a bit cheesed. And then on top of it, the seats are expensive, right? So it's not like you're going out and just buying a loaf of bread, these are expensive things. And you mentioned, you know, I'm presuming that you're not a multimillionaire, and you're not there willy nilly buying chairs every day, you know, that's not something you can do. And so that's an investment for you. And so, for me, I'd be annoyed by that too. And it's an investment you have to wake make due to an inaccessible world. So you know, fat phobia, and ableism, all rolled up into one there. And these chairs are important for your comfort, and they broke when they shouldn't have. And your sister in law is under the chairs limit, yet, they still broke. And I know you mentioned like she was sitting at the front and, and that, like, I'm sure on the box, when you bought them, the chairs didn't say you know, weight capacity, this, but make sure you don't lean forward. Because then they're gonna buckle, make sure you sit squarely in the center, and don't move your body. You know, I'm sure that just said capacity this. So they broke when they shouldn't have, you were given, you're sold something that that was faulty. And that's not your fault. And that is annoying. And again, so another another little part of the annoyed, angry, another bit to that pile, you know, another straw. And it would be different if you know, her body size was over capacity. And you're like, Hey, Sister in law, there's a chair over there, but the capacity is this much. And she's like, I don't fucking care, I'm going to sit on the chair anyway. And she sat on it and broke. And then she was like, Haha, fuck you, I'm not paying for a chair. Right? That would be different. But that's not what happened. And that doesn't mean that those is your fault. You bought the chair with the assumption that it would hold a human's way. Strange. But I think what's really bothering you is that your sister in law didn't recognize that this was a big deal for you. And you know, it doesn't sound like you want her to apologize for the chairs breaking because, you know, you recognize it's not her fault. But maybe for her to recognize that this is a big inconvenience for you. And even if she couldn't afford to help you buy replacements, she could, you know, say, hey, this sucks. I'm sorry, this is happening. I would really love to be able to help you to buy replacements, but I'm unable to. And I'm really sorry that we have to go through this. This is not okay. I think if your sister in law said something like that, it wouldn't feel as as big. I think, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? But because she didn't, then I can see all of these, these these systemic barriers that are in place, added on top added on top, added on top, and then you don't have someone who is feeling like they're on your side with this can be like, the straw that broke the camel's back. Right? You can like, you know, it feels like that could be what's going on. So if this happened to me, I was if I was in your sister in law's place, I would be really angry at the chair manufacturer. Like if I sat in chairs and they broke, I would I'd be really annoyed with the chair manufacturer. And I'd be like, you know, let's check the capacity here. And then I'd be like, You know what, I'm gonna contact them to get them to give us replacements, these motherfuckers are not selling these chairs, saying that they're right into this much. And I happen to sit on it towards the front of it, and it's buckled. That's fucked up. I would also ask if I could pay to replace them, but also be secretly annoyed that I had to pay for something that wasn't my fault. The whole thing would just be an annoying situation. Right? So but you know, that's what I would do is I'd be like, Hey, let me help because even though it wouldn't be my fault, I'm involved in the situation, right? If I was your sister in law, but that's coming from me, someone who has a certain type of personality, someone who is in the fat liberation world as a fat activist, right? I'd be able to say this is fucked up. It's not my fault. It's not your fault. Let's see if we can come together as a team to try and fix it. But maybe your sister in law, I can't I have no idea what type of person she is. She may feel like Hey, I was told these chairs were okay. And they broke. And that made me feel really embarrassed and angry. And then my sister in law, you seemed angry at me about it, even though she said that she wasn't. So I felt really humiliated and ashamed. And I was super stressed and just avoided the whole situation. And I hope that she forgets about it. And we can just move on. This is a stab in the dark, but I'm just trying to think like, what could be going on in your sister in law's head? Or you see someone mommy like, law might be like, Oh, whatever. Maybe she doesn't know that you you don't have money until the end of the month? Maybe she doesn't know you had to ask your mom. Maybe she thinks that the chairs? Were you got them for free from somewhere? Or? I don't know. Maybe she doesn't know. But here's the thing, presuming you want a good and open relationship with your sister in law? I would have a conversation with her. Because even you know,

Speaker 1 55:58

it's bothering you, right? It's bothering you. And sometimes, you know, we can we can talk talk something over with a friend or a therapist or whatever, you know, for me, because I have access to a therapist, I talked to my therapist, and I'm like, What do I want to do? Like, is it you know? Is it her? I'm angry at am I angry at the whole situation? Or am I angry at this fat phobic world? Am I angry at the the fair for not providing me chairs? And might you know, what is what is going on here? What where are these emotions come from. And also anger is really helpful, because it tells me that some kind of barrier or boundary of mine has been crossed, you know, I don't feel good, something something has encroached on my mental well being and I'm angry, and I want to protect myself. So that's a good thing, right? That you, you have that, that anger to help direct you to what the problem is. And the problem could be just your sister in law is just oblivious, or your sister in law is rude, or your sister in law is embarrassed or you know, whatever it is. But the thing is, a lot of times we only know what's going on when we have a conversation with someone. And so because this is a sensitive topic, right? And your sister in law might be embarrassed, I would gently talk to her and say, Hey, how are you feeling about the fact that the chairs broke? Or you can just start and be like, You know what, it was so annoying that those chairs broke when they said the capacity was this and it's inappropriate that they lied about the capacity, that must have been really difficult for you to see the chairs breaking, how do you feel about it? And just see how you know what she says and you know, and then you can be like, you know, what, I feel really frustrated that I had to buy more. And that was really difficult for me, especially because, you know, had to ask my mum for money and, you know, then that didn't make me feel good. And, you know, that was a difficult situation for me and see what she says, you know, she might be like, Oh, I didn't know, can I contribute towards them? And then you can like, No, it's okay. Or you can say yeah, that would be helpful. Honestly, a lot of these situations, I feel like talking to the person really clears up a lot. And you clearly care about your sister in law you wouldn't have you wouldn't be thinking about this. You would have messaged me, right? So you clearly have have love for her or care for her. And, and care for yourself because you're you're providing solutions for yourself so that you have a level of comfort and, and safety so which is all wonderful things right? So I mean, it makes sense if you're angry you make sense that you're angry your sister in law, it makes sense if you're angry at any of the things that led up to this because it's a lot right. And if you work in maybe it's hot summer, right? Maybe it's hot, maybe it's busy. There's probably no aircon right and because you're probably out in the open maybe I don't know. I don't know when I think a fair I just think of renaissance fair. I just think of being out in a field and people wearing like hats and shit and like drinking out of horns and we know wearing wool. That's what it was like, gonna be like at any type of fair but that's what I think about when you say fair or fair could be like in England a fair is rollercoasters and shit. That's what a fair isn't in England. Anyway, which to that would be you know, lots of people stressful. So, sending lots of love to you, Valerie. And even if you decide, You know what, I'm just going to let it go, whatever, that's fine too. Whatever you decide to do to this situation is absolutely fine and in your right to feel the way that you feel. Okay, so let's go to a question from destiny that says how do I begin exploring gender as a fat person? I'm on the larger in the I'm on the larger in the fat spectrum, and I'm genderqueer I've been thinking about trying some things out but it feels daunting to figure out where to start. If I was assigned female at birth for context, so I like dresses, but I want to try out some masculine stuff too, but it feels a little daunting. Okay, great question from Destiny. Love it. So for me because I'm non binary, right? You know what, like, recently I felt a lot more at home in my gender. And I'm trying out more feminine things. I didn't want to say I don't like saying that word. Right in regards to me. Like, I feel like, it's just me like, it's not feminine. It's just me, but society would say it's feminine. I just felt uncomfortable about the whole thing. So, for me, I guess it was a couple of years ago, now that I came out as non binary. I would do think do little things that were not so scary because I don't want to go out and you know, be dressed in a in a masculine way. Because that felt like too much. But you know what, for me, the thing was baseball caps. So I'd never owned a baseball cap before. So I bought one. And, and, uh, no baseball caps. Every gender wears them. But for some reason, in my mind, that felt like something powerful, but also something that was easy. And people wouldn't be like, Oh, my God, why are you wearing a baseball cap, they just blow up this someone's wearing a hat. And putting it on backwards, like that felt like a little bit of mask edge. That felt good without being too scary. Other things like underwear, it could be that you decide to try a different style of underwear and like wear like boxers, for example. Or binding type, top for your chest. And it could be that you just do something at home, right. And then when you go out in public, you just dressed the way that you normally do. And I think another thing too, with being a larger fat person is to also go and find larger fat people who are gender queer or presenting their gender in a way way that feels more exciting for you. The first person that comes to mind is Jay from comfy fat travels. I did a whole list of of queer fat people didn't I shared on the podcast, and I yeah, I did. Let me see if I can find it. Do a search Jay. Come comfy fat. Here we go. Oh, yes, I did. Okay, so, Episode 164. Here's only a few episodes, I gave a list of fat, trans non binary mask people. And so going to see just go into look at them visually. And they're in the show notes. So if you want to find the links, easily just go to first fatty.com forward slash 164. And seeing like, how they're presenting themselves, and what things about, about them feels that it might be aligned to you. And it can be just really little things. And that people don't know, like, you know, the baseball cap, like no one would be like, oh, when he's exploring their gender, they're just like this someone wearing a baseball cap is it's no big deal. Or it could be something bigger. Or it could be something like somebody that still feminine but less feminine. You know, like instead of wearing high heels wearing a flat, you know, flat is less feminine but less hyper feminine, I guess. And as well like other things that you can do is go into what is that website called? Is the gender things gender changing room, gender dressing room, gender dressing room. And the you try it you can try on your pronouns. Pronoun dressing room. Yeah, okay. So, pronoun pronouns dot fields like a.com. And so you put your name in, you put your, your, whatever pronouns that you want to try on, and then they will give you a little story and so they'll be like, Vinny, he went there and he went and his favorite dog is this and Lala. And so that's how I worked out that they then worked on me because I put in some cheese. Because this was when I was still she, they, I put in some cheese and I put Victoria which was which was my past name. And I put in Vinny which is my name and and then when I read them out, I was like, No, I'm a I'm an A so pronoun dressing room up at the link for that into the show notes. Yeah, so it doesn't have to be a big kind of like, hey, here I am world. And also it can just be the thing is with gender, he might try this stuff, you know, you might go try a little bit a bit more mask stuff and just be like, oh, you know, and one day you might be like, Oh, I don't like being feminine. And one day, you might be like, You know what I've, I'm Sis, you know. And that's the thing is, it's just this beautifully evolving thing. And you don't have to commit to anything, right? You can say, I'm going to be more masculine today. And then tomorrow be hyper feminine. And it's all perfect and valid and beautiful and amazing. Right? So that's the first thing that we used to worry me is like, well, if I do this, and I have to commit forever, and then if I, if I don't feel like it, then people will be like you're faking or you're not real, you're not a real, non binary person, because you don't look like this or do this or whatever. That's it. That's all that's all just transphobia homophobia, and bullshit, right? Because we're this beautiful evolving creatures. And who knows where the folk, you know, I'm going to end up. I've identified as non binary for a couple of years now, and it feels great. I feel great. And I felt a lot more stressed before about it. And now I've just feel like, I feel good. I feel more secure in being able to be more feminine. But then other days, I'll be like, I want to be feminine groves. Yeah. So I must say that I bought myself. Two dresses. A couple of days ago. I sent one back, and I'm wearing one right now and is making me feel it's making me feel a bit funny, to be honest. It's so funny. No, it's an experiment, right? So it could be like you like dresses that you're going to wear them with boxes underneath, or you're going to wear them with a baseball cap. You might be like baseball caps are not masculine. But you know, for me, that's how my brain goes. So thank you destiny. I hope that helped. And then I'll put the links for those people in the show notes. Or, Yeah, I'll do that. And also, in case I forget, then you've got that missed 164. Okay, actually, you know what, I'm going to leave it here, because I've got a, we have one more question, but it's kind of a kind of a kind of a big one. So we'll leave that for next episode. So only five questions. But if you have a question, feel free to email me. And we'll do another one next month. Next week. If you would like to support me, that wouldn't make my little fat heart pitter patter. And I would really appreciate it. You can do that by going to Kofi and becoming a subscription. If you'd like to support me, but without money, you can put a review for the podcast, you can send me a nice little message that says Vinny you're so sexually attractive. Actually, if you send a message like that my my VA will probably delete it. Delete. You've been a group. Yeah, so Okay. Well, thanks for hanging out with me today. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, whatever you're doing, and remember to stay FERS fatty and I will see you in a while rocket IO. Sent it. See, you know, well good now it's alligator. Oh my goodness. I'm such a silly. See you in a while. Alligator alligator. I'm gonna say it again. Anyway, bye bye.

Episode 167 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 167. I'm terrified people are judging me. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:23

Hello, hello. Welcome to this episode first fatty and first fatty allies. Great to have you here.

Unknown Speaker 0:31

Last episode, I was talking about business business. And I said, Hey, do you want to know how much it cost me to run my business? And if anyone says yes, then I will go through my list of expenses. And someone said, yes. So

Unknown Speaker 0:49

before we get into today's topic, I'm just going to talk about business is business. It's business time. Business hours are over bei bear

Unknown Speaker 1:04

a little bit of flavor concourse for you there. If you don't wanna hear about business shit, skip ahead, like 10 minutes for the fat shit are so set assessor says, Okay, so I've had my business for, Oh, lordy, lordy, lordy.

Unknown Speaker 1:24

I know, eight years. I just I'm always like, I check in it. And I'm like, yeah, that is how long it is. And then I'm like, it can't be that long. Like, what the heck, but but it is.

Unknown Speaker 1:36

Yeah, so my business expenses is are like they slowly grow

Unknown Speaker 1:46

over the years.

Unknown Speaker 1:49

But actually, no, I've reduced them recently. But to begin with, when you start out a business, there's only like a handful of things that you need. And I'll tell you what, what it is. But there are other things that you could theoretically live without, but it means that it will take more time. And so maybe you don't have enough time, so you wouldn't be able to achieve the goals that you want to achieve, or do the things that you wanted to do. Okay, so I'm going to go through my 2021 expenses, and what I did instead in 2022.

Unknown Speaker 2:25

And if anything's changing for 2023, okay, so my biggest business expense is, I have two people who work a few hours a week for me, one of them is my virtual assistant. And one of them is the

Unknown Speaker 2:46

the person who edits this podcast.

Unknown Speaker 2:49

And so I pay them a flat rate.

Unknown Speaker 2:53

So it doesn't matter how many hours they do, because I, I want to be

Unknown Speaker 2:59

as equitable as I can be to begin with, I paid people an hourly rate. And I found that that wasn't as great for them, because sometimes I'd be too busy to do the podcast. And so then they wouldn't get work for that week. And I didn't think that that was fair for them to miss out on income because I was too busy or whatever I was on holiday. Oh, you know, and so I find them a flat rate, no matter how much work they do. I mean, up to if they're working too much, then I pay them more, but that's never happened so far.

Unknown Speaker 3:36

And so they'll probably work up to or less than in the month. And so I pay them in in US dollars, but then I am in Canada, right. And so for both of them together, I pay 900. Canadian.

Unknown Speaker 3:55

So that's kind of split not split evenly, because my VA works more hours than the podcast editor. But that's the the first expense is

Unknown Speaker 4:09

900 bucks for two people working a handful of hours a week.

Unknown Speaker 4:15

And that's the month they cost. I don't think I could, I couldn't do the podcast without someone editing it for me. Me personally, because it'd be too much work like the podcast already takes one day a week work for me and that's just research and recording it and doing like uploading stuff and and writing the blurbs and all that type of shit. And so if I was also editing that would probably take me another day. And it's not a good use of my time because I'm not a good editor so I can get someone who is an editor to do that for me. And then the VA stuff that's like checking my Instagram messages, handling my emails, various projects, if there's projects they for example, I will

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Okay, reach out to these people or, Hey, can you do this data input? Or, Hey, can you

Unknown Speaker 5:08

look into this thing? Like, say, for example, I'm like, Hey, I wonder I, I wonder who I know who is a dietician who might want to use my services and so on might say, Hey, can you go and go and search,

Unknown Speaker 5:23

dieticians who might use my services and make it into a list? That type of thing. And so that's ad hoc stuff. So the next biggest expense is the software that I would use to host my online courses to host emails. So sending emails

Unknown Speaker 5:43

and sales,

Unknown Speaker 5:47

processes, things like that. So I was using something called kartra in 2021. Turns out that they were a bunch of racists. So I switched Karcher was $260 a month, $260 a month, which is expensive, but not as expensive as some softwares. I managed to find another software called system dot i Oh, which was about 150. Now a month. So as I'm saving 100 bucks on that. Okay, so that's like a thing that I feel like I definitely need, you know, I can't have, like, you know, to give people the things that I've that they've bought, they need to have this software, but you could maybe do it for free? Like I don't know, email them things. Okay, so acuity, which is a scheduling software, so when people have one on ones with me, and they need to be able to schedule, and I don't like going back and forth and being like, How about Tuesday? How about this? How about this, just, you know, it's not not great. So that's 1476 a month, Apple for storage for 19? buffer. So Buffer is a social media scheduling tool. So instead of having to manually post things to Facebook, and Instagram and different groups within Facebook, and

Unknown Speaker 7:07

Twitter or wherever else, something, you can just go onto this one website, and it will just do everything for you. And you can schedule things in advance. That's 1942 a month. And that's something that my VA does when my VA will use Buffer Canva. So sometimes I'll pay for Canvas, sometimes I won't Canva is making images, that 1699 a month. And last year, I switched to the free plan. And then I was like no, I need the paid plan. And so I'm back on the paid plan.

Unknown Speaker 7:38

Ever webinar. So whenever I would do a webinar, or a I had, I had evergreen webinars. So you might not know what that is if you're not in the business world. But an evergreen webinar is like a webinar on demand. So someone can go to your page, and it'll say, there's a webinar in 10 minutes, you can go watch it. And so then they can go watch it. So it's like a system that shows people webinars whenever they want it versus you just doing a webinar hosting it once every six months or whatever. So every webinar was $257 a month. And I got rid of that in 2022. Because I stopped doing

Unknown Speaker 8:16

evergreen webinars and have switched to live webinars, I just found that there wasn't that much benefit in it next to Google. So to pay for two Google storages because I have one, two different Google accounts.

Unknown Speaker 8:30

And so one is 1567. And one is 1669. I need a lot of storage, because every every episode of the podcast is one hour of audio, one hour a video, and that's the raw files, then my podcast editor will then edit it and then add an add then another hour. That's roughly how long the podcasts are of the edited final video and audio. And so that's a lot of storage that I need to host all of the past episodes and what we got 160 Something episodes. So yeah, last pass. So last pass password protection, I paid for the year $57. I'm using a different one now, which is I think a little bit more expensive, but LastPass was in a data breach.

Unknown Speaker 9:22

And so now I'm using what is this thing called? One Password. I think it's like a no last last pass was a handful of dollars a month and this is a couple of handfuls of dollars a month.

Unknown Speaker 9:35

Libsyn so liberated syndication to be able to put your podcast out in the world. You need to have a platform that will distribute it for you. Libsyn is that platform that costs $26 A Month Webinar kit. So webinar kitch kit was a software is a software that you use when you are launching your product and it helps the stream webinars $39 a month I don't do that and

Unknown Speaker 10:00

More, I just do webinars on Zoom or whatever, because that was for the ongoing evergreen webinars. Otter, so otter provides transcripts for the podcast.

Unknown Speaker 10:13

And that costs $8.33 a month.

Unknown Speaker 10:18

Again, some of the things you don't have to do depends where you're at in your business. So for the first few years, I didn't have transcripts, but then I was able to add in, you know, adding these other expenses. And so

Unknown Speaker 10:34

and as well, when I first started my business, some of these software's most of these software's didn't even exist. So, otter is a newer software, and offers that making transcripts for 833 a month. Whereas in the years previous to get transcript services, it was

Unknown Speaker 10:54

it was like $1 a minute.

Unknown Speaker 10:57

I remember, I can't remember what it was, or maybe like,

Unknown Speaker 11:01

less than that. But I remember it was so prohibitive, like there's no way and so if you do in $1 a minute then save an episode is 60 minutes. So you know that $60 per episode times four, you know, that was prohibitive.

Unknown Speaker 11:13

Okay, my my mobile telephone, that costs 4256. And it's cheap, because I bought the phone out. So I don't have like I'm not paying back for a phone call a ruse. Qualaroo is a quiz system. So when people join first party Academy, they are put through a quiz to see where they're at in their journey, and then they can do it again, that costs 1990 a month. restream. So I used to I don't anymore, but I used to stream live on Facebook and Instagram, and other places. And so you can have recorded videos that you stream live. And so it looks like you're live but it's a pre recorded video. And so we I tried that out for a year didn't really have any impact on my on because apparently when you go live, your your stuff is pushed because they Instagram Facebook, like it when you're going live. And so you go live in one place restream and then it will push to all these other channels like YouTube and blah, blah, blah.

Unknown Speaker 12:21

So yeah, I tried it out for a year didn't really see any benefit to it. So I stopped doing that. That was 6388 a month, Squarespace. So I have two Squarespace websites, one for first fatty and then one for first party consulting.

Unknown Speaker 12:37

One cost 2361 costs 1770 the really basic things that I need so if you have a business you definitely need to have hosting on Squarespace.

Unknown Speaker 12:51

Try interact. So, another quiz software is so annoying, like quiz software's are so expensive and ridiculous. So I had the first fatty fat phobia quiz, which exploded when everyone wanted it. And that cost 3682 A month to host the other quiz software didn't have the same capabilities. And then this software didn't have the same capabilities to be able to do the quizzes in face value Academy annoying. So yeah, so I stopped paying for that in 2022 Because trolls got ahold of the quiz and just

Unknown Speaker 13:31

sabotaged sabotage my business. So I don't have that expense anymore. T shirt studio, when people would join Fitbit Academy I send them a mug

Unknown Speaker 13:44

that says first fatty so I have spent in 2021 $206 on that V feed so V is a software that helps you do you know on when you when you're on social media, and you see a video that has like a timer on it and it has the

Unknown Speaker 14:06

captions Jesus crossed captions has captions, so a caption video

Unknown Speaker 14:13

with like a title and a timer. You know, things like that. So when a video is not more than just a plain video when it has visually interesting things around it. A software has been used. So I ve does a software 2540 A month I've stopped doing that this year because I'm focusing on less video and more

Unknown Speaker 14:37

static posts. And if I'm doing video, I'm not doing all the fancy shit. I'm just doing basic captions, which I think is really important. And you can get captions for free now on Instagram. So see how like these software's like, before you couldn't you have we'd have to manually put in captions or you'd have to pay for this software that will do captions and now

Unknown Speaker 15:00

As you know, software gets better. Now you can get it for free somewhere, and so you don't have to pay for it.

Unknown Speaker 15:07

Vimeo. So, to host videos from my eCourse on the software, I had to pay for Vimeo, which was really fucking annoying. That was $20 a month, I changed the software, which let me host the videos for free, so I don't have to pay that anymore.

Unknown Speaker 15:26

My internet, my internet cost 8837 I had to upgrade because that that cheap internet cheap in Canada's terms, cheap pension, it kept breaking all the time. So now my internet, I can't remember how much it is now like 100 bucks, 110, something like that. And it's not broken once or our zoom. So Zoom is for all the meetings 2211 Facebook advertising.

Unknown Speaker 15:55

So in 2021, I spent $226 a month on Facebook advertising and then 2020 to zero.

Unknown Speaker 16:04

I mean,

Unknown Speaker 16:07

Facebook advertising

Unknown Speaker 16:10

hit and miss. I don't bother any other bother with it anymore. You know? And then training. So if there's courses that come up in regards to like, say if NAFTA is hosting a webinar or or, or there's normally I will be buying from fat black creators. So if a fat black creator is has created, like a

Unknown Speaker 16:32

video or whatever, then I would be investing in that so or if there's some business training that I need. So training $270 a month. Yeah. So total for all that my 2021 expenses were 29,611 doll hair, so let's say 30,000 So 30,000 bucks to run a business with some things that you know, there's things there that are absolutely essential, you can't get can't get away from not using.

Unknown Speaker 17:08

And some things are additional in regards to growing your business like webinars and things like that. Or as you get, you know, paying for storage for Google Storage as your got more stuff. Or you know, if you have a podcast if you don't have a podcast and you won't have to pay for last part, so you won't have to pay for a podcast editor or you won't have to pay for not captions. The thing that's the words that are that are on the sheet fucking

Unknown Speaker 17:37

transcripts, Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you're not having meetings, or if you're not meeting clients, and that says a software that you don't need. But let's say the non essential stuff, let's just say cut it in half 15,000. So, my goal for 2022 was to reduce my expenses, and I reduced it to my goal was 22,878. So let's just call it 23,000. So, my 2020 2021 expenses, were basically 30 grand. And my goal for 2022 was 23 grand, and actually I reduce my expenses to 18,930 do so 19 grand. So that was pretty good. And you know what the big difference was, what the big difference was, was Facebook ads, I weren't I wasn't spending money on Facebook ads, and business coaching. So I had previously done business coaching, which was a big expense to learn all of this stuff.

Unknown Speaker 18:38

Here's a little tip for you. You can get all that stuff for free with a little Google watch some YouTube videos. And you know, it's nice to have people who can answer the questions so but you know, you can a lot of that stuff honestly is sometimes you just need someone to reassure you that you're going in the right direction right and so

Unknown Speaker 18:59

anyway, I Facebook ads and if Facebook Ads pay off then that's fine if you're spending x amount of Facebook ads for me Facebook ads never paid off. I even had a

Unknown Speaker 19:12

Facebook ads

Unknown Speaker 19:14

one of my friends was a Facebook ads coach right and

Unknown Speaker 19:19

so I was working with her and you know looking at looking over everything that I was doing and I was getting a lot of leads for the right prices and the right types of leads but those leads didn't convert or maybe they couldn't you know would take five years to convert or whatever convert into it to paying paying people.

Unknown Speaker 19:38

So thing is with my thing, I'll try something out and if it doesn't work or to find it, it's not useful and then I'll like cut it out.

Unknown Speaker 19:46

So yeah 18,000 which makes

Unknown Speaker 19:52

a monthly amount of 1577.

Unknown Speaker 19:57

So 1577 to run a bit

Unknown Speaker 20:00

Business per month. So you have to think about that of, okay, what do I need to make to survive

Unknown Speaker 20:09

above 1500 bucks, because that is breaking even right. And that's not even counting in your time.

Unknown Speaker 20:18

Because you don't want to be working for $0 an hour.

Unknown Speaker 20:25

And the thing is, with online businesses in the first number of years, you will be working for basically for zero, which is I why I think a lot of people are not able to do it, because they need to pay rent and stuff. Weird.

Unknown Speaker 20:44

Or, like, for me, when I started my online business, I had money saved up from my corporate job so that I could not make money for X amount of months, I can't remember how long. And so that helped me also, I don't have kids.

Unknown Speaker 20:58

Also, I don't have things like a car payment, like I don't like, credit, you know, like, I don't like spending thing, like big amounts on things that I feel like are unnecessary for me. You know, if other people do it, that's fine. But, you know, I turn around in my little $2,000 car that I just bought, you know, with with money, and that's fine by me because I don't drive a lot. And I don't have kids, so I can just have whatever and I don't have to worry about killing them.

Unknown Speaker 21:26

And I don't really go on vacations. I don't have I don't really have a lot of expenses in my life. The only the biggest expense, I think, is medicine. Because I don't have insurance, because I work for myself. So medicine for me is probably 500 a month, and DoorDash.

Unknown Speaker 21:49

Door do dash, and groceries. And my rent is 1900 for a one bed place in Vancouver, which is actually very cheap, I'm lucky. And in that's in central Vancouver.

Unknown Speaker 22:02

Groceries maybe 500 A month DoorDash

Unknown Speaker 22:06

I shudder to think how much I spent on DoorDash probably 300 a month for like, no, it's probably one day and I'm like you spent 10 grand this month I'm doing you know those those that add up, you're like fees. And I'm always like, I want to pick I want to give people

Unknown Speaker 22:23

you know a good tip like goes tip a little bit more than what they suggest. And and then before you know it like getting one burrito costs $75. And you're like, Oh no, I want the burrito. Oh, and then with as well with the contract. So the contract is they're not employees, right? They're contractors. So they work other places, too. I also give them an extra month. At the end of the year, I'll give them a month salary as bonus not salary consulting, pay or whatever. And then two weeks off for free.

Unknown Speaker 22:52

So there's other costs there. Um, and then there's probably other miscellaneous costs that I haven't even you know, tracked here. But I looked at my taxes what I you know, what my, my VA collected for me for my taxes, and it was, you know, that 18,932 So anyway, that's that if you have any other questions about business stuff, let me know.

Unknown Speaker 23:16

Hope this doesn't make you feel like oh, God, like so expensive to run a business. And Lala, you can do things like when I first started, I just had my, my website.

Unknown Speaker 23:29

And I had, I spent loads of time on social media, like Instagram, I was posting three times a day, I'm like, Oh, God, how can I've done that? And that was like, basically what I was doing was on my website, and then just posting on Instagram. So you know, 15 bucks a month, but then as soon as you start getting clients, then what we're How you gonna host the content, maybe on the website, maybe with like a password and stuff. But then as soon as you know, the the more you grow, then it's like, okay, well, you're making a podcast, so then you need to pay for this and that and whatever. Oh, you're using Canva and you want the paid features. And so then there's that and then

Unknown Speaker 24:13

yeah, so if I wanted to make my business a lot cheaper, I could cut out my podcast, but

Unknown Speaker 24:22

you will listen. You listen. So let me see how many people listen actually. So you listen, I check in from time to dine on Libsyn it's my my VA that that handles handles that. Okay, so all time people who have downloaded the show 219,592

Unknown Speaker 24:44

February 1200 downloads March 9100, APR 5700 and may were in 11 days into May 2700. So I think it's like

Unknown Speaker 24:59

I guess

Unknown Speaker 25:00

So let's say

Unknown Speaker 25:03

7000 people a month, download that 7000 downloads, so, so you know, one person could be listened to, to 10 episodes, right?

Unknown Speaker 25:13

And I don't make money from the podcast, right? I don't have any sponsorships or anything like that. I just have kofi, which I just started. And so thank you, if you want to donate on kofi KOF, I link in the show notes. Let's stop talking about money. Let's talk about fat shit. Look at if you've got questions about business, then, you know, I'm happy to talk about it. So let's talk about I'm terrified people are judging me, which is probably everybody's fear. I just realized, I've been talking about this shit for 27 minutes. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm talking too long.

Unknown Speaker 25:49

Okay, I'll put it I'll put it in the show notes or something like skip to 27 minutes in or whatever, 20 minutes in if you don't want to hear that?

Unknown Speaker 25:56

Money bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 25:58

Okay, so. So I talk to clients a lot. And one of honestly, we are all so similar. It's freaky. It's freaky. Like, I hear the same stories and the same fears and worries over and over and over again. And of course, you know, we're all we're all unique. But I feel like there's such you know, common thread that, that we're, we're worried about this and that and whatever. And one of the big ones is, is that I'm really stressed out and thinking a lot about how people are judging me. So I wanted to talk to you about that to do. So the first thing is, you're not imagining it, people are judging you people do judge. That's a fact. Because, you know, we've, we're humans and our brains are like, you know, let's make an assessment of this person. And that's just what we do. Right? But to what extent may be different from what you perceive it to be? And how can we tell what someone is thinking secretly inside their head? How do we know they are judging us negatively, positively? Or neutrally?

Unknown Speaker 27:16

We don't know.

Unknown Speaker 27:18

Even if we ask them, I said, Are you judging me negatively? And if I'm someone, oh, no, no, no. Or are you judging me positively? Yes, yes, yes. And they could be either, either way, right. But the thing is, when you are deep in anti fat bias,

Unknown Speaker 27:35

the way that you think about yourself and others,

Unknown Speaker 27:39

is really filled with a lot of judgment.

Unknown Speaker 27:43

And so a lot of people think everyone else is as anti fat as I am.

Unknown Speaker 27:52

And everyone else is probably thinking the same things as me. And that's a lot because the amount when we're really stuck in anti fat bias, the amount that we judge ourselves can be overwhelming. You know, can we can be really critical, unkind. You know, like, some of the things that when I talk to people they say about themselves, you know, like, for example, I'm just picking up my notepad of notes. Someone last last time I spoke to someone, yesterday, lazy, unhealthy and gross. That's what they described themselves. That's pretty, it's pretty a lot, isn't it? That's very unkind. And so if we're thinking, well, that is what I'm thinking about myself. And that's how I think about other fat people or, or, you know, people for, you know, wearing this or that or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 28:46

They're thinking the same.

Unknown Speaker 28:49

And I think that's a little bit of a

Unknown Speaker 28:54

potentially false reality.

Unknown Speaker 28:57

Not everyone is as as judgmental, and some people are more judgmental, right. But a lot of what people are feeling are our thoughts about themselves. Am I okay? Do I look alright? How are people judging me? And you think about this, I think about this. Imagine if you got tagged in a group photo.

Unknown Speaker 29:23

What is the first thing that you're doing? You're going to that group photo, and you were zooming in on the picture of yourself. You don't care about fucking Sally, or Timmy or whatever. You might look at them later, but whatever. They just look like Sally and Timmy or whatever. And you'll look at yourself and you'll probably be like, Oh, God, this is what this is what happens? I thought I looked good that day. Now I've seen the photo. I realized that I looked disgusting. And I was walking around thinking I was hot shit, but really, I was disgusting because

Unknown Speaker 30:00

This photo proves it. Forget how I felt in the day. I was wrong. So I should be ashamed for thinking that I was okay looking for that one day. And that that that outfit looks good on me because this photo proves that it doesn't, which is a belief or perception, right? It's not not true. And as well the way that the way that photos are taken, there's I love the things online that shows like photos with different lenses, and how one lens can make someone someone's face look really big. And another lens can make their face look really pinched and like, make their nose look really tiny, and like really gaunt looking, and it's the same person but a different lens. And so, you know, you the people around you, you know, they see that photo, and they're not like, oh my god, I thought so and so was a nice person. Turns out, I saw that photo. And it turns out that they're a terrible person, because they have a double chin, they're probably not thinking that they're probably thinking, Oh, God, my hand looked a bit shit that day, or, Oh, don't look nice, or, Oh, it's so nice to see everyone together, or whatever it is that they're thinking. And maybe they are thinking, you know, oh, look at that person, but they're probably thinking about themselves. So that a lot of time, we don't actually know how people are judging us to what extent or if they're caught up in their own lives. And when I think about judgment, there's there's three main outcomes or outcomes of judgment, like, people are judging me negatively, people are judging me positively. Or people don't care about me or thinking about what to make for dinner tonight. And maybe you're worried that you're judging them, you know, say people on the street, you're just whatever. And if someone is judging you negatively or positively, or neutrally, what does it say about them? So I know, I know that people judge me in a fat body, negatively, not everyone, but more than if I had a smaller body, right? And so if you have a bigger body, if you are in marginalized identities, then people are judging you because

Unknown Speaker 32:09

of because of bias, right? So we know that to be true. You there are more people that are judging you, and are being biased towards you. And what does that say about them? Right? So I know people are judging me. I know, people are like, Oh, look at them, they're just out thinking that they look okay. And they don't, I think that they, their belly is way too big and whatever, right?

Unknown Speaker 32:38

I don't care personally, I don't give a shit. Because I know what they what their thinking is because of the pain that they are in. Because of the bias that they have invested into.

Unknown Speaker 32:56

It's because of them, and how they feel about themselves. And how they perceive themselves in, in the power, power structures of society, is why they're judging me. Right? They're judging me because they think we're both playing the same game, right? That we're playing the same game, and there aren't, you know, they're thinking, I'm winning over that person that just walked by, or I'm winning over my, my, my relative, Vinnie, or whoever I am to that person, I'm winning. And I can look down on them

Unknown Speaker 33:32

and feel good or better about myself temporarily. But 10 minutes later, they see someone who they perceive to be more attractive. And then they're feeling like, I'm losing.

Unknown Speaker 33:45

I'm losing a Salvini. And I felt like I was winning. And then I saw this other person, and now I feel like I'm losing. And so in their mind, is this kind of up and down, have

Unknown Speaker 33:59

you know, and they've perceived me to be losing.

Unknown Speaker 34:04

But I'm not playing that game.

Unknown Speaker 34:07

I'm not playing the game. You know, it's like, if someone runs up to me and says, you lost that game of Monopoly, no matter what game I'm not, I wasn't playing Monopoly. So I can't feel sad that I lost that game of Monopoly. Because I wasn't playing so I am. And I'm not invested in it if I lose or win, because I'm not playing that game. And that game that I'm talking about is valuing other humans by what they look like valuing humans, but if their body is is smaller, and presuming that they are better in some way, I'm not playing that game, so I can't lose. And when I say I'm not playing that game, of course, there'll be times where I'm like, don't look at me, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm winning today over that other person.

Unknown Speaker 34:55

But as we know, you know, there's no winning again.

Unknown Speaker 35:00

Next, beauty ideals against anti fat bias against racism against misogyny against ableism. Against transphobia. There's no winning.

Unknown Speaker 35:11

Like I'm using this analogy again of, of Europe casino, the house always wins. It doesn't matter if you sit sit at that table for hours, the house always wins.

Unknown Speaker 35:24

So, you know, maybe you want a little bit of a flutter? You know, at one time I went to Vegas, and I won $20. And I was like, thank you. That's it done. And so I think about like, think about it like that, like engaging in beauty ideals in ways that serve me, you know, for example, wearing makeup or wearing certain clothes and you know, that serves me, that's great. That's a way for me to express myself. But as soon as I feel like I might be losing, as in, I'm judging myself negatively, or I'm worried as as judging me. Now, let's leave, let's leave the table. Let's go somewhere else. This This ain't it for me. Thank you. So could extending that compassion to other people be helpful for you to remind yourself about? Maybe it is maybe it isn't.

Unknown Speaker 36:11

What I have found in my journey and other people's journeys that I have witnessed is that the more that you unlearn your own anti fat bias, the more that you are not worried about people judging you, because it's not a constant thing of you, no judgment isn't at the forefront of your mind. 24/7 If you're not judging yourself, you're able to think, oh, maybe other people aren't. I'm constantly thinking I'm a disgusting piece of shit. And maybe they are, but

Unknown Speaker 36:45

it's not at the forefront of your mind. So I feel like the more that you do this work, the easier it's going to get? Well, what from my experience, right? From my experience, and what I've seen with other people, and also think about, you know, when people are judging you say, if you're walking down the street, and someone was like, Oh, God, there's a fat person, and they're wearing shorts, and they shouldn't wear shorts, or whatever it is, do you think that they're gonna be like rushing home to their friends and be like, into their mom and be like, Oh, my God, Mum, you'd never believe this. I saw a fat person on the street wearing shorts. Can you believe it? Call the president we need to tell people about this. Probably not right, someone judging you is probably like a split second thing in their brain. Maybe it's you know, more than that, because maybe say they harass you.

Unknown Speaker 37:33

But it's affecting us more than it's affecting them. Right? They it's just a fleeting thought in their mind.

Unknown Speaker 37:41

And so can we try and give,

Unknown Speaker 37:45

give that back to them. Right? Like as a not, you know, say, Hey, you're ugly, but holding up a mirror, in our brains of being like that shame doesn't belong to me. You're trying to put shame on me because you feel ashamed. doesn't belong to me. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let your shame pull me down. Because, you know, I'm just walking around in the shorts, and I look fucking amazing. And it's hard. And fuck you, you know. And as well, because of, because of the Panini, a lot of people have gained weight. And so many people are, are stressed about it. And I feel like there's more compassion around.

Unknown Speaker 38:24

Because of that,

Unknown Speaker 38:26

if you have gained weight, and you haven't seen people in a while, I feel like many people have said to me, Oh, I'm stressed out because I'm seeing people I haven't seen in a while and I've gained weight.

Unknown Speaker 38:38

And I'm thinking they might be in the same boat.

Unknown Speaker 38:42

And if they're not good, probably their friends are yours are probably going to be extending compassion to you.

Unknown Speaker 38:49

You know?

Unknown Speaker 38:51

So a thing that I like to remember is what is more important, other people's comfort? In regards to them not seeing some, quote, unsightly fat person, or your mental health?

Unknown Speaker 39:06

What's more important other people's comfort? Or you living your life? Are other others opinions worth not living not doing this work? Are we going to let other people's negative opinions stop us from living? And living authentically and being brave and not giving a fuck?

Unknown Speaker 39:27

Are they more important than, than you know, is the answer. Fuck no.

Unknown Speaker 39:35

So when you think when you're working on this stuff, I really want to encourage you to support yourself. So supporting yourself with this. A lot of times when I talk to people and they're really worried about people judging them, I say to them, it's okay. So tell me about who's in your life. And they'll say, Well, my mom, she's been on diets forever. She told me to go on a diet. You know, my dad makes remarks about women. My sister she hates herself

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Even though she's thinner than me, and she's on whatever diet, all my friends are thin and they will restrict food and I'm the fattest one in the group. Some people will probably listen to this being like Vinnie, how the fuck do you know about my dynamic? Because it is so often the same is people are not surrounded by pro fat people, anti diet people, they're surrounded by people who feed into that

Unknown Speaker 40:26

bullshit, right? And so I feel like, No wonder no wonder and I'm not saying you should be like, you know, kick your dad in his face and be like, Fuck you, Mom, you're dead to me or whatever, you know, that's probably not what's gonna happen but you know, setting boundaries and expanding your, your, your social circle in regards to

Unknown Speaker 40:49

people that you're letting influence you. And that could be exclusively online, right? It doesn't mean that you have to go and be friends with new people in life in the in. In the real world. I don't like saying that the real world online is real world too. But in

Unknown Speaker 41:06

day to day life, in physical life, there we go.

Unknown Speaker 41:11

But that might be what happens to what do you have in your life that currently is supporting the idea that fat bodies are great. And what do you have that says the opposite and so that could be like, you know, watching bikini babes on the beach 24/7 or, or watching stuff that's affirming, following people who are affirming on social media. Also, something to do is like, if you feel like stressed out that you're going to be judged because your whatever you're wearing, is to is to support yourself in regards to Okay, I'm going to do a practice run of wearing this thing. And I'm just going to walk to the mailbox and come back. Or I'm just going to walk the dog and come back. Or I'm just going to wear this in the living room and then run back to my room and take it off and put on my my sweating trousers, you know, you know, doing little things like that can be really helpful to make help you build up the confidence that that that the world is not going to stop spinning if someone sees your, your arms or your belly or your legs or whatever. And also, we want to make sure that we're interrogating our own anti fat bias. We all have anti fat bias and, and it's a constant, you know, trying to remove that from our brains and it will get easier. But if you are agreeing with what people are potentially judging you on, it's easy, easier to internalize that stuff, right? Versus if someone was like, Vinnie, you're unattractive because you have fat arms. I would like lol What?

Unknown Speaker 42:36

No, no. What are you talking about? I have homes that are just regular, regular regular homes, like, Oh, it sounds like you are struggling with body image yourself, you know, but if I believed it, and someone said you have fat arms, I'm like, Oh, God, yeah, they're right. And that would be anti fat bias that I have in my brain agreeing with them. Also, grieve get angry or sad about the reality that the world is fat phobic as fuck. People do value smaller bodies in society. But do we want to be on the side of the oppressor? Do you want to support anti fat biases and sexism and racism and classism by agreeing with people who judge you and Brene Brown, famous fat phobic.

Unknown Speaker 43:26

She said some good things though, says shame cannot survive the light. And that's something I think about a lot shame cannot survive the light. Talk about it.

Unknown Speaker 43:35

Even if it's with the people that you feel, you know, the just the people that you feel safe with, or your therapist or your colleagues or your friends.

Unknown Speaker 43:43

Say, Hey, I feel really stressed that you know, I feel stressed, I've put on weight and I'm seeing people and you know, I'm worried people are judging me and, and that shame might not be able to survive that light of sharing it with with people. And I bet you so many people like me toe.

Unknown Speaker 44:02

And the second part of this is that this process that people might be going through of accepting that their bodies.

Unknown Speaker 44:13

What I see a lot is that people get into something that I call Constant Learner mode. So Constant Learner mode is right. I want to be fat positive. I want to love my body. So I'm going to get this book and that book and I'm going to follow these people. I'm going to listen to this podcast. I'm going to go to this webinar. I'm going to Lella learning, learning, learning learning learning soaking it up. Great. Love it. But

Unknown Speaker 44:41

you know what, we only have a limited capacity for you know, the amount of books I have that I'm like, I'm gonna read that I'm gonna I'm so gonna read that. Sat pristine, never touched. Because I'm human right.

Unknown Speaker 44:57

And, and so

Unknown Speaker 45:00

We've got us limited capacity to learn, not because of our intelligence levels, but because we're human. And unless we've got like a report do or something, but you know, no one's coming up, I'm not gonna be in your house being like, tell me about the history of fat liberation.

Unknown Speaker 45:16

You're gonna take it, you're gonna take what you want and when you need it.

Unknown Speaker 45:20

And so people are like, Well, I'm following all these people. And I've read all these books, and I've listened to these podcasts, and I don't feel better, better about myself. And I will wonder

Unknown Speaker 45:33

what you have done outside of learning. And so there's the education

Unknown Speaker 45:42

and the action. So it's like, if you want to learn how to swim you've never swam before. And you're like, Great, I'm going to follow Olympian swimmers online, I'm going to read a book about how to swim.

Unknown Speaker 45:56

I'm gonna watch a webinar on breathing techniques.

Unknown Speaker 46:00

And then you get to the pool, and you're like, oh,

Unknown Speaker 46:04

and no, thank you, I'm just gonna, you know, watch the other people doing it. And then being like, combative, I can't swim. Yeah, I've read like 13 books about how to swim.

Unknown Speaker 46:13

And so what some people do at that point, they realize, Okay, I've done a lot of learning is there like, I'm ready, and they jump into the deep end. And then they've, they're in the deep end, and they're like, shit, I've never done this before. This is scary, I'm drowning. And then they are deeply traumatized or die or whatever, you know, not other people will die from wearing shorts, but

Unknown Speaker 46:35

it's not a great experience. And then again, at the pool, and the like, See, I knew I didn't have the confidence to do that I knew someone like me shouldn't be swimming. There's the evidence. And I'm like, Oh, so close. So close, go to the other end of the pool, and tinker your toes in the water, just a little tingle, just put your legs in the wall, don't even get in the water, dipping your legs in

Unknown Speaker 46:57

and see how it feels. And then go sit back, sit on the beach chair and just read a book, you know, whatever. Did you survive? Yes. Was it fun? Yeah, so what I felt good, well, maybe, you know, maybe there was a little bit cold, and you need to wait a little bit longer and try again later.

Unknown Speaker 47:15

And I'm using this analogy to say, say if you are you want to you know, wear a swimsuit or sleeveless things are whatever whatever it is, or do a speech or whatever it is, what can you do to lead up to that? So I used the example before of, of, can you just wear something in your living room and then and then run back to your bedroom and change and put on your sweating trousers?

Unknown Speaker 47:41

Say if you wanted to do a talk, can you do a talk just in front of your your friend? And see, did you die or not on? How was it? Did you like it, you want to, you know, increase the audience size, and not expecting yourself to be able to swim. When you've only ever read the books, we need to practice and support ourselves and realize that it may be overwhelming and scary. And that's okay, we can take a step back doesn't mean that we're a failure and that we should give up and you know, when when I say give up sometimes things you shouldn't give up because it is not right for you, you know, you might decide that wearing a bikini doesn't suit you in regards to actually it's too feminine for me, and I want to wear some board shorts, and that's what feels good. And it's not because of anti fat bias. It's because of a gender thing. For example, you know, so being flexible with yourself and supporting yourself and your mental well being to build up that confidence to see if, you know you wear this thing and people are like aghast and call the police and you're arrested and then serve the rest of your life in prison for wearing short shorts.

Unknown Speaker 48:56

Don't think that that's happened? I don't know. Probably Probably someplace. I don't know. Anyway. So basically,

Unknown Speaker 49:05

people are judging you and that sucks. I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker 49:08

But not everyone is judging you negatively. Some people are judging you positively. Some people don't care. And they're just thinking about themselves, you know, which is what most of us is doing. If you have a bigger body or if you are marginalized in other ways. And absolutely, you're going to be experiencing more bias and more judgement and that is not okay. That is not your shame to hold that is a person who is who is

Unknown Speaker 49:33

shaming, that's their shame to hold and deal with.

Unknown Speaker 49:37

And also we shouldn't let those people stop us from living our lives if that's something that we want to do. Can we support ourselves to do it? Can we look in look at our life and say, am I supported in my life, to love and accept myself and overcome this fear of judgment? Or can I add in some more juicy stuff and maybe say

Unknown Speaker 50:00

boundaries and, and maybe tell you know, Michelle Smith from from school to fuck off on Facebook. That's, that was the name of my bully in school. She's a fucking mean person.

Unknown Speaker 50:14

And what if someone is judging you negatively? What does it say about them? The more work than the more you work on this stuff yourself, the easier it's going to be not to have judgment of others at the top of your mind. And the easier it's going to be to just be like, I'm just living my life, just wearing some shorts and whatever it is that you're doing. Just as you know, sniffing some flowers, I'm walking my dog and life is good. And that's really nice. Honestly, it's really nice. And I'm thinking about, you know, am I thinking about people judging me? How much does that happen? Of course it happens because I'm a human being. But I don't

Unknown Speaker 50:51

you know what I'm thinking when I'm walking around walking doggy or whatever, will come three times a day, right? So I'm in a really busy area. So there's lots of people. Do you know what I'm thinking? They're thinking.

Unknown Speaker 51:05

Oh, look at that dog. That's so cute. Oh, that person looks happy to be walking the dog. Or I like I like what they're wearing.

Unknown Speaker 51:14

Or they're thinking.

Unknown Speaker 51:17

Oh, look at those tits. Like them tits. Oh, look at that big bum. Huh? Oh, that person's got a nice haircut. Oh, I like those glasses. Or they're thinking,

Unknown Speaker 51:29

Ah, I'm lost. Where should I go? Or oh, this area is fun. I'm a tourist here or Oh, I'd really like ice ice blended coffee from Starbucks or, oh, there's a dog park near here. I'm gonna go watch the dogs play or, you know, that's what I'm that's what's running through my mind. That's so funny. I don't think that people are like, Oh, that's that person's unattractive.

Unknown Speaker 51:58

So full of myself.

Unknown Speaker 52:02

Everyone's walking by me. We're going ooh, gross. I'm just like, they love my kids

Unknown Speaker 52:12

Wow, what a gift. My brain has given me with that. Yeah, cuz you know what, I think what I'm thinking about other people when I'm walking around, I'm like, Oh, look at their tits. Like, unless they're nice to it. So, oh, that person looks happy. Or, Oh, they're having a nice chat with each other and oh, look at that puppy. And, you know, because that's what that's what I'm thinking is those things? Oh, that's nice. Hey, Vinnie is brain thanks for doing that. That's pretty cool. But obviously, that's that's not everyone's reality. And I'm very lucky I'd like to have access to to therapy and I have access to drugs that helped me with my mental health and and I've been doing this work a long time. And you know what, I'm because I'm surrounded by people who are not judgmental, themselves. I don't worry about it. Like I you know, I see friends or whatever. And I'm not thinking they're thinking negatively because they don't talk like that about other people. Let's say for example, some Internen friend of the show some in an in body image coach. Never, ever would I ever think that she was like, Oh, that's a shit color on Vinny or Oh, Vinny is looking fat today. No way. No, it wouldn't even cross her mind. Maybe?

Unknown Speaker 53:34

Maybe it does, but I wouldn't like I wouldn't. Because I know what type of person she is.

Unknown Speaker 53:41

And if I did have someone in my life, that was I thought that they would be judging me. I don't think that relationship would survive. Or I would be talking to them about their own body image and saying, Hey, you okay.

Unknown Speaker 53:57

Like what's going on? What's what's going on with this? That's not really my it's not really my vibe. You know, the whole judging other people's appearances?

Unknown Speaker 54:08

Yeah, you know, well, I've not heard someone in like in real life in in, you know, not like in a movie or something. I have not heard someone judge someone else's appearance. Negatively. In years. How lucky am I? How lucky am I?

Unknown Speaker 54:28

Wow.

Unknown Speaker 54:30

So anyway, I'll stop bragging about how fucking amazing my life is. And you shut up code.

Unknown Speaker 54:37

That's not how I feel God.

Unknown Speaker 54:40

Yeah, so All right. I'll leave it here. I'll leave it here. I'll leave it.

Unknown Speaker 54:46

Let me know what you want me to talk about. If there's anything you want me to talk about, send me a message

Unknown Speaker 54:56

and

Unknown Speaker 54:58

I'll make it happen.

Unknown Speaker 55:00

Maybe Oh guarantee we'll make it happen.

Unknown Speaker 55:05

For you like a talk about how sexy fer sorry, that's not going to happen. My feet ain't sexy. My feet are gnarly. Do you have gnarly V I see people who have got these nice feet. And I'm like, Where the fuck are they? How do they who has nice feet apart from like babies and men? Right? Who

Unknown Speaker 55:27

are men you like they get, they take their clothes off and over their feet are like, pristine. Never seen air like daylight like how they got these feet? I don't know, maybe that's just my experience with men, is they've got these gorgeous feet and women and other people don't.

Unknown Speaker 55:44

How is that happening?

Unknown Speaker 55:47

And I've had gnarly feet from the womb. You know, like when I was being birthed. My mom was like, Oh, the baby's feet are scratching me. Like, and my mom's feet like that. Like, who has soft feet? I know.

Unknown Speaker 56:00

But I use, there's a

Unknown Speaker 56:03

you know, what's really good for 90 feet is urea cream really good and make some soft feel, you know? And then then I'm like, Oh, my feet are soft now. And then. And then I don't use it for like, two days. And then they're not soft anymore. But it really works. It really works when I can be bothered to do it.

Unknown Speaker 56:21

And, and you know,

Unknown Speaker 56:24

one of those

Unknown Speaker 56:27

buffers on your feet. I can't remember the brand of it. But there's one that she's like an electric that ships so good, so satisfying.

Unknown Speaker 56:36

Anyway, I'm gonna stop talking about my feet.

Unknown Speaker 56:40

And let you run off into the wild CLI. And if you liked the show, if you like the show, or if you don't, and you just want to give me money, then you can go to Kofi. And you can get free stuff if you subscribe. Well, I guess not free. You're paying to subscribe. You get stuff instead of just donating and you just get the happiness of donating.

Unknown Speaker 57:03

Yeah, okay, well, I'll see you in a while alligator. Stay first party goodbye.

Episode 166 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 166. The alleged cost of fatness on society. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:24

Hello, welcome to this episode so pleased that joy.

Unknown Speaker 0:29

Hope it's warming up wherever you are in the world. Oh, maybe it's getting cold, depending on what hemisphere you're in. In the Northern Hemisphere, we've had some sunshine. Yay. I don't do you to the to the beach, because we had sunshine for the first time in the year in the year, Sunshine enough to get into the water. Not Wow, for like three seconds before your legs froze off. And he was so happy. It was just like,

Unknown Speaker 0:57

it's so cute makes me happy. The difference in my brain between warm weather and hot weather is astonishing. It's like my brain is automatically like switched on. Do you feel like that you get like that. It's magic.

Unknown Speaker 1:14

And also sad for the colder months.

Unknown Speaker 1:18

So just an update on kofi. Kofi is a place that you can donate

Unknown Speaker 1:26

money to me if you so please watch to

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where we're at right now. I've got 27 active subscriptions, thank you subscriptions 27 oviya. And the subscription value that I'm making in 30 days is $175. So we've got an update, which is that I've added in the first fatty science GLite died.

Unknown Speaker 1:57

And so that's for people donating $10 plus the first fatty what is it called for canal size diversity resource guide. So $5 You get the size diversity Resource Guide, which is fucking amazing. It's so good. Anyone I show it to you. They're like, what this is so good. And I'm like I know, for $10 You get that plus the science guide.

Unknown Speaker 2:22

And for $20 You get all of that plus, you get a this is a fat positive space and fat liberation is the future card. So it's one card double sided. So two messages on each side. Plus a handwritten card from me isn't your dress plus a social media shout out?

Unknown Speaker 2:45

Yes, so

Unknown Speaker 2:48

we're at 22% of my my goal which is $4,080 which is six months of the podcast. So each show cost me about $170 at least to make because I've got a

Unknown Speaker 3:08

podcast editor

Unknown Speaker 3:11

there's so much stuff that goes on behind the scenes you really it's it's alarming. Alarming I couldn't do on my own Oh my goodness.

Unknown Speaker 3:20

Yeah, so right now with $175 which is where we're at that's one episode a month.

Unknown Speaker 3:26

And I like to do up to four right? You'd like me doing some more right? Yeah, if you do consider becoming a subscriber.

Unknown Speaker 3:36

If you do a one time donation you don't get anything boo.

Unknown Speaker 3:42

But then if you become a subscriber you get we get that shit love it right. And you know what I was doing my my taxes and expenses and bla bla bla bla bla and I was thinking I wonder if there are any people who have got like online businesses or are interested in what it costs to run an online business and and if I went through like my costs and you know for the all the different little software's and things that you need

Unknown Speaker 4:06

if anyone is interested in hearing about that like the cost of running an online business and

Unknown Speaker 4:13

yeah with different types of software and you wouldn't believe it like there's a software for everything and then it's just you know, anyway

Unknown Speaker 4:21

let me know message me if that's something interests you message me, you know, message me, I won't talk about it. But I don't care about that. I don't have an on my business where you like that.

Unknown Speaker 4:30

Okay, so today we are talking about the alleged cost of fatness on society. And I can't believe I've never spoken about this before in a whole episode. I've obviously probably spoken about it briefly in different episodes, but

Unknown Speaker 4:49

we see this a lot right depending on where you live. If you're in the UK, especially.

Unknown Speaker 4:56

I feel like the UK is like super

Unknown Speaker 5:00

awful in are in regards to tabloid newspapers and those messages really being in the daily conscience. You know, obviously I don't live in the US I live in Canada.

Unknown Speaker 5:14

But you know, obviously I don't live in other countries. But anyway,

Unknown Speaker 5:18

we see a lot of headlines like, you know, the Oh word is costing us so much money. And that seems to be justification

Unknown Speaker 5:28

to hate fat people, right? The fat people are such a, quote, burden on society. And especially in a country like the UK, where we have health care, which is government funded, we have the NHS and National Health Service, which is great. And in Canada, we kind of have a mix of half funded and half not funded. So for example, if I need an operation, it's free. If I need to go to the doctor, it's free. If I'm a permanent resident, if you're ever an immigrant, it's not free.

Unknown Speaker 6:04

Medications are not free. But people will have

Unknown Speaker 6:10

their employers will normally give them a health care plan, which then makes them cheaper, maybe free, depending. But if you're low income, you may get assistance, once you've spent a certain amount towards medications in a year,

Unknown Speaker 6:32

but they're not free, there are no apart from

Unknown Speaker 6:37

I tell you what, yeah, apart from COVID vaccinations, I was gonna say other vaccinations, they're not free from what I've had in Canada.

Unknown Speaker 6:46

So it's kind of like a half and half hybrid.

Unknown Speaker 6:50

And then Ireland In Ireland, it's not free to go to the doctor costs, I think, like

Unknown Speaker 6:56

50 euros for a visit. And then medication isn't free, but medication is cheaper. And in the States, you know, it's just all fucked

Unknown Speaker 7:07

up. And the same with Canada, in the states, if you don't have an employer who's paying for health care, with benefits, then you are Sol. So someone like me, I work for myself,

Unknown Speaker 7:22

I have to pay for my medications. So

Unknown Speaker 7:27

these like we amusing these, these four countries as examples, obviously, everywhere else in the world is different.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

And in the US, even that rhetoric of being a burden is very much there. Right. But I feel like in countries where there is health care paid for by the Government is even more used as a justifiable excuse to hate fat people. So is it true? You know, we see all these figures around at the fat people are caught that are costing the NHS or the government or the country X amount.

Unknown Speaker 8:07

And obviously, it's a it's a giant figure. And this is a problem. Therefore, we need to stop people from being fat and greedy and lazy and being such a burden. So I want to go into where that number comes from. In regards to Canada, we're going to do a Canada specific, but guess what, guess what? This is

Unknown Speaker 8:35

relevant to a lot of countries because the way that they calculate how much fatness costs

Unknown Speaker 8:46

is, yeah, is, is pretty much very similar.

Unknown Speaker 8:52

So in Canada, the most recent report has estimated the cost of fatness to be 4.6 to 7.1 billion

Unknown Speaker 9:05

annually.

Unknown Speaker 9:08

Okay, so if someone has that number, oh my God, and love it the fact that it's 4.6 or 7.1 billion, I mean it that's a big difference, right? Like

Unknown Speaker 9:19

a few billion their difference.

Unknown Speaker 9:23

And so where does that come from? Okay, you can go to the links in the show notes to see the sources that I'm talking about. The first source is a report called obesity in it's just called obesity. That's it. That's what it's called. But it is a word in Canada. I'm going to not use the word anymore. From here on out.

Unknown Speaker 9:52

Hopefully I don't just slip it in because it's everywhere. And in this report, they talk about how

Unknown Speaker 10:00

They have

Unknown Speaker 10:02

worked out that figure, the 4.6 or 7.1 billion. So in the report, and this report was recreated in 2011, this is the most recent report. So see how that's already a problem 2011. We're in 2023. So, but these numbers are still touted around everywhere. So the report goes into prevalence of fatness in adults, children and youth and Aboriginal populations.

Unknown Speaker 10:33

language wise, from my work in the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion field. In Canada, the preferred terminology is indigenous peoples, but they are using Aboriginal populations. Aboriginal means not original to the land. So AB is not original. So Aboriginal populations is that you say not original to the land, which is the absolute opposite of what it is. But you know, some communities will use different names. But the general consensus is that it's indigenous peoples. Anyway, so then the report goes into determinants and contributing factors, health and economic implications, opportunities for intervention, then going into the costs.

Unknown Speaker 11:27

And the costs they've got from information from 2007 and 2008. And extrapolated it to the time of writing the report. So again, we're going back even further to 2007 to 2008. Okay, so the first thing that I noticed that I was like, is the fact that they're reporting on the fact that indigenous peoples are bigger than the rest of the population. So they're stating that this is a problem with indigenous communities. And, and they talk about different communities like Inuit, First Nation, matey, and the differences in rates of fatness in those communities. So

Unknown Speaker 12:21

the reason why I think this is I mean, knowing how many people are fat is not a problem. But then framing this is as an issue is the same way in, in the States, how they frame black communities are, they're fatter, and it's a problem with black communities, versus the other systemic things that are happening.

Unknown Speaker 12:52

The other ways that black people have bodies

Unknown Speaker 12:57

as in fatness being a normal part of being a human being. And framing it as black people need to know how to learn how to eat properly, not like us white people who are thin and healthy. The we're gonna go and save black communities because they don't they're, they're doing this to themselves. They don't know any better.

Unknown Speaker 13:24

And framing it like that, versus Is this an issue?

Unknown Speaker 13:30

Is it? Are we talking about foreigners? Are we talking about health? And if there's health disparities up there is then why is that? Could it be racism? Yes, yes, it is. So that lens that they're showing this with indigenous communities is saying

Unknown Speaker 13:55

this is a problem, but not this is a racism problem.

Unknown Speaker 14:00

And the problem being health, not body size, right? They don't have that, that that viewpoint there. Okay, so they go into determinants determinants of fatness. So they recognize there are many reasons that fat people are fat, yet, they've decided to put food and exercise as the first factors as the as the first things that they mentioned. It feels like so there's a lot of people who wrote this report. It feels like there was, I don't know, however many. So at least one person who was like,

Unknown Speaker 14:38

hey, so this is kinda stigmatized.

Unknown Speaker 14:43

Um, so should we, you know, put in the fact that you know, there's there's many reasons that someone's fat and, and, you know, the social determinants of health and things like that and, and then you know, the other people will like

Unknown Speaker 15:00

Okay, fine, but we're still gonna tell them that they're too greedy and they don't exercise enough and the the person was like, Oh, okay. Like, that's what I feel like it is.

Unknown Speaker 15:12

Obviously, that's totally me guessing who knows? Who knows? They could be all you know, super liberal and but then their boss is like, you know, we need to tell people how terrible fatness is Oh, who knows, although I've no idea is just making me think about this.

Unknown Speaker 15:28

I know about a.

Unknown Speaker 15:31

This gets on my nerves so much I know about Health Care Authority, who is creating a it's got nothing to do with me. I just know it from a grapevine, who's creating a weight bias training.

Unknown Speaker 15:46

And the people that are leading the crease creation

Unknown Speaker 15:50

are the O word doctors. So the people who are in charge of eradicating fat people, and they are refusing to take advice from they've got consultants like dieticians,

Unknown Speaker 16:07

and fat people on consulting on this and they are refusing to take out the weight bias from the training because it's they use the Oh words they talk about how to not be fat.

Unknown Speaker 16:24

I just want to be so mad. It makes me so mad that they're just like patting themselves on the bad ring light. Well, we sound nice to fat people like when we tell them that they should not exist anymore. We do it with a smile. So it's not it's not Baez. So kind of those poor fat people. They don't even know why they're so fat. But we know it's because they're greedy. They can't help themselves, you know, really patronizing and against what we know, around anti VAT bias and they're just teaching more bias. I just hate it so much. I want to go in and flip tables and do some roundhouse kicks, you know, but

Unknown Speaker 17:06

anyway, so.

Unknown Speaker 17:09

So in the determinants of fatness, they make some totally wild statements. So, quote, for example, on the basis of this approach, they talk about a behavior. So they say this behavior emerged as the most strongly associated with fatness at the population level for both men and women, after adjusting for age, and other health, behavioral and social determinants. So two things here, they're only looking at men and women. There's no mention here of gender diversity. But the big thing here that I'm pointing out is that they've got this behavior, this one behavior is associated with fatness. Right is the most strongly associated with fatness.

Unknown Speaker 18:01

When controlling for age, other health, behavioral and social determinants. So how can you say that this one behavior and I'm not going to say the behavior because I don't want people to feel stigmatized? Because if they don't engage in this behavior? How can you say that this one behavior is the most strongly associated when you are discounting? All of the other reasons someone may have a bigger body.

Unknown Speaker 18:31

We've adjusted for age, health, behavioral and social determinants. And so there's one factor is the strongest. It's bizarre. It's like saying, for example, Donald Trump is a dickhead. Okay. Donald Trump is a decade when controlling for his personality, his beliefs, behaviors, and other factors to do with him as a person. The most strongly associated cause for being him being a dickhead was the type of shoes that he wears. And therefore, Donald Trump's footwear choice makes him a dick. Because we've taken out all of the other factors that could make him a dick. Jokes. I wasn't his tie. It wasn't his suits, it was his shoes. But hang on a minute, why can't we put in all those other reasons why someone might think he's a dead because I'm not sure it's his shoes. Right. What?

Unknown Speaker 19:30

So quote from the study such research, while theoretical may help to inform decisions by can Canadian policymakers, health promoters and healthcare providers on targeting fatness prevention and treatment interventions okay. So that such research while theoretical, okay, so, these are theories they are presenting in this document and then they're saying

Unknown Speaker 20:00

It may help to inform decisions by policymakers. Lalalala. Right. So we have got these theories, and we're going to be developing policies. And

Unknown Speaker 20:14

we're going to be talking to health promoters about it and healthcare providers about this information, which are theories to target fatness

Unknown Speaker 20:25

and the theories and not based on you know, like, okay, so because everything's a theory, right? It's not, it's not based on robust evidence is based on deeply flawed evidence. Right? It just, it just,

Unknown Speaker 20:42

I'm just flabbergasted by,

Unknown Speaker 20:46

you know, one plus one equaling 27, you know,

Unknown Speaker 20:51

there was this, there was there was this Tiktok, lice or the other day, and it was a woman who was really angry, she was like a go at her, she was just having a rant, a well deserved around, in my opinion. And she said, she'd been a server for 12 years, or something like that. 10 years, whatever.

Unknown Speaker 21:09

And she, in that time, he was always looking at people with office jobs as people who knew better or, or were deeply qualified in some way. And, you know, she was told that she wasn't qualified enough to have an office job, she was only qualified enough to be a server, she eventually gotten off his job. And she was like, What the fuck, like, I do nothing. And people hear a ding dongs, and they don't know better than what I knew when I was a server. In fact, I was doing better work as a server, because I was helping many people I was, you know, busy and complex problem solving. And in the office, it's just, you know, way less difficult. And these people don't have some special thing that makes them be qualified to work in the office over something else, like this server job. And she was like, What the fuck? Why did no one tell me that you didn't have to be this special person to have an office job. And I think like, there's, I think about this, how, when I was in recruitment, I would get to meet a lot of companies, CEOs, CFOs, you know, company leaders of a variety of different companies, you know, huge ones, and little ones. And, and I was, I too had these people on a pedestal of, wow, they must be really smart to get to where they are. And some are really smart, and some are really hardworking, and some are really insightful, and etc. But the fact that they have a certain job doesn't mean that those characteristics are aligned with who they are. And I was really surprised because I used to be so nervous and shy talking to people. I've been meeting the CEOs, and they were donkeys.

Unknown Speaker 22:59

They didn't have an Kullu. Right. And I was like, what? Well, I felt these people were just otherworldly. You know, they did something to get there. It did, they were a die, and they were white, you know,

Unknown Speaker 23:14

they, they were born into the, quote, right situations, you know, and of course, not discounting. Many people have worked hard to get into different positions. But, you know, presuming that everyone is this, like, super smart person, when everyone is just, it feels like, you know, everyone's just kind of fumbling along and trying to do the best they can.

Unknown Speaker 23:37

And we shouldn't put these these

Unknown Speaker 23:41

these people on a pedestal, because maybe what they're saying is not as concrete as what we think,

Unknown Speaker 23:52

you know, maybe they're just, you know, pulled out from thin air or whatever. And, you know, a lot of you know, a lot of people are, have spent a lot of time and, and are experts and but when we're looking at things like this, of where they're saying, this is a theory

Unknown Speaker 24:11

and other places in here, they're saying like, hey, we don't really know.

Unknown Speaker 24:18

But let's, let's stop fat people being around. If we can kind of a lot, you know, a lot of times we can be like, Okay, well, that sounds fine. We don't really know why people

Unknown Speaker 24:32

are fat and why fat people might have

Unknown Speaker 24:37

associations with certain diseases, but we're just gonna guess that it's because they're fat, and that they're greedy and lazy.

Unknown Speaker 24:46

Anyway, so we'll go back to the to the to the Trump example. So they're saying this one behavior is what causes people to be fat, probably. We don't really know. But we've taken away all of the other factors that could make someone fat

Unknown Speaker 25:00

And so, you know, like with Trump or Trump is a dickhead we take we take away all the factors like his personality and his beliefs and his behaviors and all the other factors to do with him as a person, we've worked out that it's most strongly associated with the his footwear choice. And so when they're saying such research is theoretical, but it could inform decisions by policymakers, etc. It's like a ha, well, we don't like Trump, and what he stands for, so we're going to encourage people to wear different shoes, and then they won't be like Trump. And of course, I'm not likening fatness to being Donald Trump, because Donald Trump is a giant dick Ed. And it's not because of his shoes, or his suits, or his tie, or the way he looks or because he has a bigger body. It's because he is an odious human being, and a bigot and dangerous lalala. But it's kind of like, like I say they're going one plus one equals pineapple.

Unknown Speaker 25:57

So quote, however, because these analysis, these analysis use cross sectional data and rely on a number of assumptions, they cannot be used to make inferences about the causes of fatness, our collective understanding of the determinants of fatness will continue to evolve, as the effectiveness of policies, programs and interventions are monitored and assessed. Right. We so that it's so I find it so funny. It's kind of like, you know, they're saying, here's a here's a statement, which is is not great. And then hey, by the way, that statement wasn't great. Why not just take away that statement? That wasn't great.

Unknown Speaker 26:40

Why not just say, hey, we don't know why people are fat. And here's something that I would do. I just take out this whole thing. Why do we need to know why people are fat? There's nothing wrong with being fat, right?

Unknown Speaker 26:53

Because the reason they wouldn't, why would they want to know why people are fat is so that people stop being fat. Right? So the whole you know, there's lots of reasons why someone is fat we what it may be true, I feel like it's a moot point.

Unknown Speaker 27:08

Do we need to know like,

Unknown Speaker 27:11

so they go and they say determining the precise number of deaths attributable to fatness is difficult. However, as fatness often co occurs with other risk factors.

Unknown Speaker 27:25

It has been estimated that the fatness cost fact that fatness costs the Canadian economy approximately 4.6 billion in 2008.

Unknown Speaker 27:37

So, we've got the 4.6 billion number there and then we had that other number 7.1 billion, okay. So, that 4.6 billion number is they say a conservative estimate, as it is limited to those costs associated with the eight chronic diseases most consistently linked to fatness, another study using a comparable methodology and looking at 18 chronic diseases estimated the cost to be even higher at close to 7.1 billion. So

Unknown Speaker 28:20

this report has, has has has got the eight chronic diseases, diseases that are associated with fatness, big word that are associated not a big word, but it's a long word, but like important to no associated and then the other one the 7.1 billion it 18

Unknown Speaker 28:43

diseases associated

Unknown Speaker 28:46

with fatness and they've got this other number. And it's so funny that they're saying it's conservative estimate when in my opinion, it's anything but

Unknown Speaker 28:59

so we're going to see two the

Unknown Speaker 29:03

approaches that they have decided for dressing fatness.

Unknown Speaker 29:09

They've come up with three ways to do it. Quote, a review of the national and international literature found that strategies to combat fatness and address fat environments can be classified into three main categories. One, health services and clinical intervention interventions that target individuals to community led level interventions are directly influence individuals and group behaviors and three public policies that target broad social or environmental determinants like smoking cessation. Effective fatness prevention may require multifaceted long term approach involving interventions that operate at multiple levels and in complementary ways. Relatively flute few population level fatness prevention and management interventions especially public policy approaches that target broader environmental facts

Unknown Speaker 30:00

's have been systematically evaluated in terms of their effectiveness or cost effectiveness. Developing and implementing effective interventions will require close and frequent monitoring to identify which approaches work in different settings and with different populations as well as economic analysis to understand their potential value for money. Okay, so, so did you hear what I heard in that? We've got three ways that they're going to stop fatness, okay. And then they say

Unknown Speaker 30:36

we don't know how to stop fatness.

Unknown Speaker 30:41

We have relatively few population level fatness prevention and management interventions. Why is it? Why is it after

Unknown Speaker 30:52

over 100 years of information about diets not working and dieting being a thing

Unknown Speaker 31:01

that we still still don't have information on how to make people not fat?

Unknown Speaker 31:13

How many more hundreds of years do we need to keep out this?

Unknown Speaker 31:18

Could it be? Could it be? Could it be that science has shown us there are no effective long term ways to make more than a tiny percentage of people. Not fat.

Unknown Speaker 31:36

What?

Unknown Speaker 31:38

It's, it's just so

Unknown Speaker 31:42

I was gonna say funny, but it's

Unknown Speaker 31:44

it's just white. We're gonna do 123 And then they go into the 123. Right? We're gonna they're gonna go deep into the individual community Lella but they're saying we don't know. We don't know how to make people not fat.

Unknown Speaker 32:00

This is really interesting. This this this sentence here. Concerned about fatness is not a new phenomenon. By the 1930s life insurance companies had been begun using height and weight charts to identify clients at increased risk of death. Since the 1950s. Health Surveys have made possible the study of height and weight in Canadians. Do you remember the 1930s? Louis Dublin from the metropolis, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company who pulled out some figures from his anus? And the world says Oh, Louie, you're genius. Fat people are bad. You're right. This is a way to codify them. This is a way to categorize them. And let's just go with it.

Unknown Speaker 32:52

And it's still talking about it is fucking report this big ass report, which probably cost 1000s and 1000s of 1000s dollars to create. They're talking about these dingbat from the 1930s. Who was who was looking for ways to make more money from fat folks. He was like, How can I increase these premiums? Hmm. Yeah, okay. Yeah, fat people, they're deviant. Let's charge him more.

Unknown Speaker 33:24

He was in the episode of like, nothing, it was the biggest charlatans of diet culture.

Unknown Speaker 33:29

He, he was he was a peach.

Unknown Speaker 33:33

is like, if they're so close, it's like they've got that information. Okay, so in 1930s This happened, I've got that information, but then they go on like to a different tangent of oh, okay, so, we've been doing it since the 1930s.

Unknown Speaker 33:53

Fat people are not thin. Hmm, let's think about this.

Unknown Speaker 33:59

But they haven't taken that next step. You know.

Unknown Speaker 34:04

So that they talk about what causes fatness and seem to guess

Unknown Speaker 34:10

is because we don't have access to exercise equipment. Problem solved. Oh my god. Okay, I'm gonna stop this podcast. Turns out it's because we don't have access to a treadmill is why people are fat okay.

Unknown Speaker 34:27

So, they say one avenue through which neighborhood physical and socio cultural characteristics may influence fatness risk is their impact on availability and accessibility of physical activity equipment, facilities or programs through the direction and extent of influence though the direction extent of influence may vary by age and so they linked to a study.

Unknown Speaker 34:51

Here's the thing is when people link to studies, click on it and see what the study says. Right. So they, they they've got like

Unknown Speaker 35:00

A 200 studies linked in this report. So I look at this one. So the study the link to environmental correlates, environmental correlates of physical activity in youth a review and update. And what that says is most studies retrieved used cross sectional designs and subjective measures of environmental factors, and P a physical, physical activity.

Unknown Speaker 35:25

variables of the home and school environments were especially associated with children's physical activity most consistent positive correlates of physical activity was Father's physical activity, time spent outdoors and school physical related policies, support from significant others mother's education level family income and non vocational school attendance, low crime and the characteristic of the neighborhood environment associated with higher PA.

Unknown Speaker 35:54

convincing evidence were an important role for many other environmental factors was however, not found. Further research should aim at longitudinal and intervention studies and use more objective measures of physical activity and its potential environmental determinants. So is what they just said, saying that in the study

Unknown Speaker 36:18

Hmm. So they flat out state state that they're that the data is problematic for drawing conclusions. And they say similar research from the UK says the same thing. So there's a box that says cautionary note on interpreting population impact numbers, and population attributable bull risks. They say

Unknown Speaker 36:49

they are useful for measuring characteristics of factors that may be associated with the prevalence of a disease or a condition at a population level. However, caution should be used when interpreting interpreting their results for example, pars, which is

Unknown Speaker 37:04

population attributable risks, unknown additive, so individual par values for risk severity, several risk factors cannot be summed together to derive an estimate of total attributable risk for the disease or condition of interest. This is because risk factors often cluster and influence one another particularly in complex health issues such as fatness. Another issue concerns the interpretation of Pars and pins pins is population impact numbers for non modifiable risk factors. In general, where causality is known, these measures can be seen as reflecting the extent of the population burden of a disease or conditions, that could be theoretically eliminated, if all individuals in the exposed target group were converted to the non exposed reference group. So in that sentence there is saying where causality is known.

Unknown Speaker 38:10

So if they they're saying if we know that

Unknown Speaker 38:15

fatness is caused by people wearing sunglasses, theoretically, we could eliminate people in the exposed group sunglasses, whereas to make them into non sunglasses, whereas, and therefore, we can reduce the burden of fatness because there won't be fat people because fat people know what we're at longer wear sunglasses.

Unknown Speaker 38:44

Such an interpretation which can help to inform decisions in public health settings about modifiable risk factors on which to focus limited resources and efforts is inappropriate when considering non modifiable risk factors. For example, immigrant station, immigrant status, urban versus rural revenue residents.

Unknown Speaker 39:05

So here they're saying, but what if fatness is just, you know, an inherent power inherent to the person or is correlated with a non modifiable behavior. That's a problem. So continuing however, the inclusion of risk factors in PA analysis can still be a value for informing public health action as it can help clarify which groups appear to be at higher or lower risk. So they're so close. They're so close, they're saying it's inappropriate to consider non modifiable risk behaviors. Okay, so what information do we have about what causes fatness? And what interventions can be

Unknown Speaker 40:00

taken to make people not fat. We don't know what interventions to take to make people not fat. So therefore, it is non modifiable. Currently.

Unknown Speaker 40:14

There is no way, right? Let's close this. And they say in the report, they're saying we don't know why people are fat and we don't know how to not make them fat. And then they're saying in this sentence, I took it, I didn't read it out, but they were using fatness as an example.

Unknown Speaker 40:33

And fatness and physical activity is the example. We know that physical activity is a behavior that makes Fat people not fat,

Unknown Speaker 40:43

but they don't know.

Unknown Speaker 40:47

And so, so basically, to get that number they are listing the conditions right. So the health impacts they list things associated with fatness and then show data that thin people get those conditions as well. I'm like, so Okay. So, this is not just something that happens to fat people I think people get it too.

Unknown Speaker 41:11

So, mortality they say that fat people have decreased mortality, they say it themselves

Unknown Speaker 41:23

mortality so morbidity refers to illness or disease mortality refers to death so quote, in contrast people who were Oh word but not Oh word had significantly lower risk than normal weight populations. There was no significant difference in risk of mortality between fat people and normal weight respondents. What we know this right we know that you know, you and I know this. There is in the report.

Unknown Speaker 41:58

Oh, lordy, lordy, lordy.

Unknown Speaker 42:01

So the estimated the costs.

Unknown Speaker 42:05

The quote in the study, the economic burden of fatness was defined as both a direct cost to the healthcare system, ie hospital care, pharmaceuticals, physician care, institutional care, and indirect costs to productivity, ie the value of economic output lost as a result of premature death and short and long term disability. The study focus on eight chronic diseases consistently associated with fatless.

Unknown Speaker 42:30

So here's the problem. They are saying that the people with those diseases, one fatness cause those diseases and we don't have that information, right. We don't know why fat people might have a higher association with certain diseases. What we do know is it's not increased fat tissue. What we do know is that fat people have poor health outcomes because of weight bias because of subpar health care or delay in health care. And because of dating, we do have that information. So

Unknown Speaker 43:14

the costs of a fat person just engaging with the healthcare system, that is defined as a cost of fatness when it's just a fat person engaging with the healthcare system who happens to have a disease condition that's associated with fatness. And they're saying the indirect cost of productivity.

Unknown Speaker 43:38

So if a fat person's happens to have a short or long term disability, is because they were fat. It's not for whatever other reasons, right?

Unknown Speaker 43:53

If someone is a fat person dies, it's because they were fat.

Unknown Speaker 43:59

What? So

Unknown Speaker 44:03

they also like there's so many things to pick out about this report. They also make some dogshit claims about workplace wellness programs. So, quote, It has been argued that a strong business case can be made for workplace wellness programs. And then they linked to some garbage sources like one paper from

Unknown Speaker 44:21

2002, whose own conclusion says statistically watertight, watertight conclusions cannot be drawn from this small sample of very different workplaces, nor was it the intention to do so.

Unknown Speaker 44:36

And then they brag about how effective workplace wellness programs are. They say a recent meta analysis of nine randomized controlled trials of such programs reported a net loss of

Unknown Speaker 44:49

how many pounds 2.8 pounds in 12 months.

Unknown Speaker 44:57

Oh well, six

Unknown Speaker 45:00

trials sharing a net reduction in BMI off

Unknown Speaker 45:05

nought point 454 7%. Not even half

Unknown Speaker 45:10

not present. Sorry, no point four, seven, put, you know, on the BMI point scale. So.

Unknown Speaker 45:21

So they're saying there's a strong business case. Wow.

Unknown Speaker 45:26

And I mean, any weight loss is, is

Unknown Speaker 45:31

a lot because we know that weight loss is, is not possible for the vast majority of people. But I mean, if I can bragging about a, you know, someone's BMI going lower, nought point four, seven. And notice how they're just talking about BMI, they're not talking about health, right? They're not talking about health, they're talking about body size.

Unknown Speaker 45:53

Then they say diets work. But only in the short term, a 2006 review of 158 Publications representing 147 studies of fatness prevention and management interventions for children and youth concluded that the majority lead to positive outcomes, at least in the short term.

Unknown Speaker 46:21

Wow,

Unknown Speaker 46:22

I need to go find the link to that what they say the 2006 review of all the publications that positive outcomes in the short term.

Unknown Speaker 46:31

So okay, so that was the thing basically, if someone has a condition and they happen to be fat, then that is being labeled as a cost to

Unknown Speaker 46:48

society. So so someone came out with not someone, a group of people came out with an article in response. So this is from 2019. Is there more to the equation, weight bias and the cost of obesity? I said the O word again. I said I wouldn't so hard when it's like every third word is the O word.

Unknown Speaker 47:10

So I'm just gonna read this so you can read the whole thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:16

I'm gonna link to it. Basically, this group of people said,

Unknown Speaker 47:21

is there more to the equation?

Unknown Speaker 47:25

So the costs I'm reading from it, the cost of fatness have been well studied, with estimates in Canada reaching 7.1 billion annually. These estimates feel public and professional discourse about fatness as a quote, epidemic with substantial economic and public health consequences. However, cost estimates for fatness thus far have neglected to consider a critical variable weight bias. In this commentary, we propose that some costs currently attributed to fatness may be partially or fully attributable to weight bias. Taking a burden of illness approach we show that data derived from a purposeful literature search provided as proof of concept support the notion that weight bias may be an important variable to consider when calculating fat related costs. We propose that future research on costs of fatness should consider weight bias with goals of achieving more accurate cost attribute attributions and identifying appropriate leverage points for interventions to improve the well being of the population. They they kind of miss out on a point here to go like further but someone else does go further. So continuing, blah, blah, blah, I'm skipping a paragraph. The scientific literature on the cost of fatness has neglected the possibility possible contribution of weight bias. weight bias is defined as negative attitudes and behaviors against an individual based on their usually heavier body weight. For example, research has consistently shown that individuals with large bodies are characterized as lazy and lacking willpower. weight bias is widespread and pervasive. We propose at some costs that have been attributed to Oh word in existing burden of illness studies. Example delayed healthcare seeking to avoid bias doctors may in fact reflect weight bias in addition to or instead of weight alone, this Miss attribution of costs to the extent that it occurs has two main implications. First, existing cost estimates of fatness may be inflated. Second, these estimates could improve intervention efforts focused on preventing or reducing fatness

Unknown Speaker 49:39

No, new or close but no resulting in missed intervention opportunities to improve practices and settings to include larger individuals. This is where you can tell that

Unknown Speaker 49:53

some people in the

Unknown Speaker 49:57

the discourse here are

Unknown Speaker 50:00

If you like, yeah, they're doing it, they're doing it. They're doing it. Oh, they want to eradicate fat people.

Unknown Speaker 50:10

So close yet so far. Why weight bias matters in Estimating costs of fatness body fat is feared and reviled by many segments of society. For example, 25% of 4283 respondents in one study reported that they would rather be unable to have children than be fat. respondents who weighed less were more likely to endorse such statements.

Unknown Speaker 50:34

They talk about more about the

Unknown Speaker 50:37

why weights are bad, which one of them is that weight bias might make people fatter, and they say that that's a bad thing.

Unknown Speaker 50:46

Continuing they say through our literature review, we identified seven putative costs of weight bias in three categories one health, ie delayed health treatment seeking behaviors and medical treatment, contingent on weight loss, detrimental physical and mental health outcomes to societal ie lower education attainment, interpersonal problems, and three workplace ie workplace discrimination. And then they've got this kind of Venn diagram on so it's two two circles. One says fatness costs, and the other circle says weight bias costs and then they overlap in the middle.

Unknown Speaker 51:24

And so they say figure one illustrates that costs direct and indirect, that overlap between fatness and weight bias drawing from a lot of revival of law. four major areas of potential overlap between fatness and weight bias costs were identified, one employment, lack of promotions to fiscal health, three mental health and four other societal costs example diminished interpersonal relationships, these overlapping areas represent issues relating to weight bias are currently included in estimates of cost of fatness in Canada, and support our overall assertion that weight bias is an important yet missing component of fatness cost estimates.

Unknown Speaker 52:10

So this Venn diagram,

Unknown Speaker 52:14

so weight bias costs, they've said health workplaces societal.

Unknown Speaker 52:20

And then they're saying, oh, word costs, health. And so medical spending,

Unknown Speaker 52:29

diseases and complications, increased life and medical insurance, premature death, and reduced quality of life.

Unknown Speaker 52:41

So the thing is, though, with health,

Unknown Speaker 52:45

health spending, well, we're gonna have to have

Unknown Speaker 52:50

we have to have

Unknown Speaker 52:53

they're saying here specialized equipment, we have to have equipment for humans, you know, it's bizarre. Imagine if we had this like, oh, how much does it cost us to, to health spending on people who are are smaller, you know, children,

Unknown Speaker 53:09

or people with smaller bodies? How many gowns do we have to buy in size small? Well, that burden of people who were smaller really is massive, we have to buy X 1000s of gowns and have beds and blah, blah, blah, it's just not they're just part of the human population. It's not a burden that they exist.

Unknown Speaker 53:30

Diseases slash complications, example diabetes, heart disease.

Unknown Speaker 53:35

And they're putting that under Oh, word costs.

Unknown Speaker 53:39

But

Unknown Speaker 53:41

we don't know that those things are caused by fatness only that they are associated. So we can't have it under the Oh word costs, increased life and medical insurance or that's something that fat people have the burden of.

Unknown Speaker 53:58

Right? premature mortality, reduced quality of life.

Unknown Speaker 54:02

And even in the report there, they're saying that

Unknown Speaker 54:07

normal weight people have

Unknown Speaker 54:10

increased mortality, that that that quote, normal white people have a higher chance of of dying, right, versus people who are fat. The report says that and so you can't have that under health either. reduced quality of life. That is right. But is that that's a weight bias costs that is not an O word cost workplace, so they're going to MIT workplace. So an O word costs it they're saying private monetary losses due to reduced output, job performance and labor income slash profit. What.

Unknown Speaker 54:47

So in fact, people are bad at their job. Because of fatness versus fat people might have reduced output or

Unknown Speaker 54:57

reduced income because of weight.

Unknown Speaker 55:00

bias, absenteeism including paid sick leaves, public monetary costs and via taxes lost.

Unknown Speaker 55:09

It's just

Unknown Speaker 55:11

been like, using, let's use some thinking around this. Is that because of fatness? Or is it because of weight bias? So anyway anyway anyway, so basically they're saying, hey, like, most of this stuff is actually weight bias. And it's not fairness, okay?

Unknown Speaker 55:33

Now someone else responded to this. I love this. This is like a twit Twitter thread, but you know, for academics.

Unknown Speaker 55:41

And that was Dr. Angela Meadows. So, Dr. Angela Meadows is a rock star.

Unknown Speaker 55:51

So Dr. Angela Meadows responds letter to the editor response to the thing that I was just reading to you. So I'm gonna read it to you. It's a short thing, seeing a URL that's the author of that

Unknown Speaker 56:06

article that I read just read, outline the role that weight related stigma plays in inflating the supposed economic costs of fatness. However, despite their thorough and helpful since synthesis of the literature, one cost that was not well alluded cated in their model was the direct impact of weight stigma on physical morbidity. In addition to indirect effects via delayed or inappropriate medical treatment exposure to a chronic, stigmatizing environment, even in the absence of personal discriminatory experiences, has a direct impact on physical health via the body's dynamic neuro endocrine response to stress. Aloe stasis. Aloe stasis, maintains homeostasis in the face of physical, environmental or psychosocial stressors, and involves multiple systems within the body, including the cardiovascular and immune systems, while Aloe stasis represents an adaptive response to acute stress, chronic or repeated stress over time can result in multi system biological dysregulation, a concept known as allostatic load, which is linked with a wide range of disease conditions, including cardiovascular disease, diabetes, hypertension, and cancer. This situation is not specific to high weight individuals. The wider stigma literature provides a wealth of evidence suggesting that exposure to personal and systemic prejudice and ill treatment places members of disadvantaged and marginalized groups a particular risk of developing these conditions, Pasco and smart Reitman.

Unknown Speaker 57:58

That's the paper. So, hostile environments may also advise adverse physical health outcomes, for example, chronic pain conditions and poor birth outcomes via

Unknown Speaker 58:11

a psychological distress. In the case of highway individuals experience weight stigma has been linked with higher levels of cortisol and inflammatory markers, and impaired glucose metabolism, with a recent longitudinal study study supporting a causal relationship in a cohort of 986 adults aged 25 to 75 years and the midlife development in the US biomarker sub study, perceived weight discrimination was associated with with a two fold increase in the 10 year risk of high allostatic load. Experienced weight stigma and weight related bullying. Were also linked with overt disease prevalence, including

Unknown Speaker 58:57

RT artery to sclerosis, that's something to do with your I looked it up it's something to do with your your

Unknown Speaker 59:05

arteries, diabetes and modern minor cardiac conditions in a sample of 21,000. Highway adults in the National Survey of alcohol and related conditions study.

Unknown Speaker 59:17

As many of these health problems are generally attributed to carrying excess weight, any calculation on the economic burden of a word and lover that she's put it in quotes, must consider the direct causal role played by weight stigma in health care costs associated with physical as well as psychological morbidity. Angela, and this is why it's important to have you know, people who in the fat activism community looking at this stuff and saying,

Unknown Speaker 59:52

you know, so Angela has been able to say

Unknown Speaker 59:57

you didn't even think about this. And this is

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

The big thing to think about and that is weight stigma. And so seeing a owl have said, some, if not all of the cost of the burden of fatness on on society can be attributable to anti fat bias. They don't say anti fat bias is a weight stigma. I don't like saying weight stigma or weight bias because it it opens the door for people saying,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:23

Oh, we mustn't be mean to straight size people when it shouldn't be about that. It's about the violent anti fatness that is in society.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:35

Where was like what was my brain talking about? Yeah, so really, that would it was it they say 7.1 billion

Unknown Speaker 1:00:46

word 7.1 billion.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:49

Or if you go for the more conservative number 4.6.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:54

What 4.6 billion be the cost of weight bias.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:59

As said, by seeing al

Unknown Speaker 1:01:03

What 4.6 billion be the cost of anti fat bias?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:08

And would knowing that change that number. So that all of these programs that are designed to potentially end

Unknown Speaker 1:01:21

weight stigma, which is actually perpetuating any more

Unknown Speaker 1:01:26

that they end.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:29

And so anyway, in a nutshell, let me summarize what we've said here. What was sent him.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:36

So there's no way to predict how many people die from fatness in any accurate way.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:45

The reason for that is that there are zero health conditions that have been shown shown to be caused by fatness

Unknown Speaker 1:01:58

and something that only fat people get versus health conditions being correlated with fatness and something that people of all sizes get. You know, it's the crux of is fatness, a disease. And there's an episode where we talk about this. And the thing is the crux of it is, well, we can't show that fatness causes these negative outcomes. And we can't show that this is something that only happens to fat people.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:32

Right? That's the the backbone of this, also insisting that we need this data can be problematic in itself. You know, imagine if we did this with any other identity factor. And in the past this is this has certainly happened. Imagine if we costed the, quote, burden of women, for example. I mean, it would be fine to want to estimate, you know, the budget of how much we should be allocating to certain services, but framing an identity group as a burden, and then advocating for their erasure is beyond fucked up.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:08

Right? Imagine if we had like the, the burden of women on society. And then it was like, causes of people being a woman ways to stop people being women, so that we would then not have these burdens on society. Like it's ridiculous, right? You know, it clearly is what if that came out, then everyone be? What

Unknown Speaker 1:03:32

we want to just women is what is the same? Like people are just fat people have been fat forever. And anti fatness is the problem. So,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:43

in a nutshell,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:45

if you're fat and you have a disease that's related to fatness,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:50

that is where they're getting those numbers from, right? If you die, and fat and have a disease that's related to fatness, then you die to fatness basically.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:03

So basically, that number is

Unknown Speaker 1:04:06

how many fat people exist and US healthcare, how many fat people exist and have died. That number is the cost of having fat people exist in the world and framing it as a burden. And they've used the word burden in that report many times burden and I mean, you can use the word burden as in you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:04:25

just things that are there, but they're not in this in this instance and not reframing framing is just something that they're they're a big part of the report is how to make people not not fat and they say we don't know why people are fat

Unknown Speaker 1:04:45

maybe we should give them an exercise bike. When I know though, but you know, maybe he's actually helping inform policies but

Unknown Speaker 1:04:55

oh, it's fucking annoying. Wow.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:58

So

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

Knowing about the you know, the stress that allostatic load I really was thinking about this you know

Unknown Speaker 1:05:09

fat people need to have a rest fat people need to relax and get a massage and try and get some of that

Unknown Speaker 1:05:22

stress from our brains if we can and you know what one way to to help from experiencing

Unknown Speaker 1:05:33

the the stress of weight white bias one way that is helpful that Angela Angela Meadows talks about and I'm going to talk about in another episode is to be in fact community.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:46

It's almost like fat community can act as a as a kind of shield, right. Not an impenetrable shield. But it helps right.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:56

The framing of of fatness as as not an issue and being in community with others who have those same beliefs helps us not internalize

Unknown Speaker 1:06:09

weight bias which is which is good for our health right? So hey, just listen to this podcast might be good but I might it might be stressful just hearing about this bullshit. So if that's the case, you do just go and you have a like go and have a nice cup of tea have a nice little biscuit or something.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:25

A chocolate Hobnob if you're in the UK you can get them here actually in Canada there's a British section in different stores I get I get myself some rhiwbina I get myself lemon sherbets I get myself

Unknown Speaker 1:06:39

what else some chocolate

Unknown Speaker 1:06:43

that I don't do crisps so that's the thing that I miss the most is crisps. I'm a crisp person. So anyway

Unknown Speaker 1:06:53

I hope that you found this episode interesting and if you did and you want to support the work that I'm doing, go to Kofi KOF I

Unknown Speaker 1:07:05

search first fatty or do just go to the show notes and you'll find the link

Unknown Speaker 1:07:11

show notes for this episode is first fatti forward slash 166 Or they're probably they probably just on your phone where you're listening I don't know I don't know how we do it.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:20

Yeah, so thanks for hanging out with me today oppression all odds, stay fares fatty and I'll see you in a while Oh Allah Allah guide her bye.

Episode 165 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 165 a weight loss surgery, stats, and stories. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:23

Hello, welcome to this episode. So nice to see ya. I can't see you. So nice that you're here listening to me.

Unknown Speaker 0:33

We have got an episode today where

Unknown Speaker 0:38

we're talking about the stats was stats around weight loss now we've done a couple of episodes about the stories on weight loss surgery, sorry, weight loss surgery.

Unknown Speaker 0:51

And

Unknown Speaker 0:54

the this episode I did, like two years ago, it was episode 50 or episode 165. And so I want you to rerelease that, that audio because you can't get it on some platforms anymore because it's from so many episodes ago. So I'm going to be playing the information that I recorded in Episode 50 around weight loss surgery stats, and then I am going to be also adding on the end of this podcast, stories, new stories. I always find it so interesting that whenever I post on social media about weight loss surgery, that the stories just come flooding in. I feel like people don't have anywhere to talk about this, their experiences with weight loss surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:52

And I think it's really important to share even more stories every time I get them because who

Unknown Speaker 2:01

they're important. And what we hear about weight loss surgery is a lot of positive stuff. Right? Or if there is a detracting story, it will be like someone went abroad for surgery and they fucked it up. You should stay in your home country for surgery because we're better. And we won't fuck it up. And

Unknown Speaker 2:23

yeah, so let's listen to the stats. Before we do just an update on a couple of things. I listened to that episode again, just to see, you know how much of a decade it was a couple of years ago.

Unknown Speaker 2:39

It's good, it's good. Don't worry, I wasn't addicted.

Unknown Speaker 2:44

But there's a couple of things that have changed since I recorded that episode. I use this new update on language that I've learned and the new update on language is instead of saying substance abuse so in regards to using alcohol or drugs the new way to say that which is less stigmatizing is substance use disorder so instead of substance abuse now substance use disorder

Unknown Speaker 3:10

so just an FYI when you hear me say substance abuse just in your brain just think Vinny saying substance use

Unknown Speaker 3:18

also I mentioned lindo bacon, and that was before lindo showed their ass if you want to know about what happened with lindo go and listen to just Google just just Google it or we have a whole episode talking about it, which is the most popular episode I ever did. I think people are like, oh, I want to gossip. So I think if you just search first fatty lindo bacon, you'll find that episode.

Unknown Speaker 3:44

Also at that time, I was calling myself Victoria, which is my dead name. So I don't know if I refer to myself as Victoria. If that happens, and you're like hula fuck is that then? That's me. And my name is Vinny. And my old name was Victoria. So yeah, so with that in mind, let's listen to it. And then I'm going to come back at the end and share the stories that people have shared on social media when I shared this information recently. Okay, so let's get into today's episode. I've been meaning to make this one for a while but I've been putting off why I've been putting it off. Because it's a big and juicy topic. It's kinda it's kind of um

Unknown Speaker 4:29

I don't I'm not into I'm not into shaming people and I don't want talking about weight loss surgery. I don't want people to think that if you choose to have surgery that you are a bad person.

Unknown Speaker 4:46

And, you know, we see a lot we see a lot of of celebrities who were fat icons and still are,

Unknown Speaker 4:56

who then have surgery and

Unknown Speaker 5:00

And a lot of people in the fat positive body positive community are sad about that. And that makes sense. Of course, it's sad to think of someone who you thought was, you know, who liked their body who was a champion for fat people, then having surgery, some people feel like it's a betrayal.

Unknown Speaker 5:21

I personally don't, because it's not any of my business, really, what people do with their bodies, I don't know what's going on of their brain. I don't know what's going on with their life. I do know what it's like to move through the world. As a small, medium fat, I don't know what it's like to move through the world with ever marginalized identities. So I'm white having to move through the world as a black indigenous person of color, that adds another layer on top of it, to move through the world or something like this, if you have disabilities, if you're trans, it, all sorts of things. If you're gender nonconforming, it makes life harder. And so if you can

Unknown Speaker 6:13

do something to make your life that you perceive or make your life easier, who knows if it will or not, and that isn't an option for you, and that is available for you.

Unknown Speaker 6:25

Then I can understand why people would do that. And so I don't feel betrayed, I just feel compassionate towards them. But, you know, there probably is a bit in me that it's kind of like, Oh, I wish that they hadn't. Now, in this episode, we're talking about what actually, bariatric surgery is. The different types are not advertising it to you, but whoever I'm not like, Hey, here's the different types. And here's why it's great. No, just so we were on the same page of we know what we're talking about. And, and, and what not, the outcomes and the risks of the surgery. And the stats around does it actually make your thing?

Unknown Speaker 7:09

And why people get the surgery? And we're going to have, I'm going to read a few accounts from people who've had the surgery and what what it's like. And if you're considering the surgery, we talk about should you have the surgery? So let's do it. So what about weight loss surgery? Now, I want you to talk about this today, because

Unknown Speaker 7:32

it's been on my beautiful brain.

Unknown Speaker 7:34

Do you remember I say Do you remember? Like we've been best friends forever? Do you? Remember when I was on that BBC documentary? Who are you calling fat? Well, you don't remember because you don't know. I was on this documentary. And I lived in a house with other people who have higher weights. And two of those people in the house had previously had surgery to amputate their stomachs in order to lose weight. Now,

Unknown Speaker 8:08

one of the people was now a fat positive person. And

Unknown Speaker 8:14

she had had the surgery years previously wasn't even talked about on the show. But she had that surgery and she had seen tons of serious consequences.

Unknown Speaker 8:28

Malnutrition, her bones were super weak, and they she would break bones constantly.

Unknown Speaker 8:36

She had put on all the weight. And I think more from what if my memory serves me. Now there was that one person and there was another person who was heavily featured in the show he had just had this surgery, and he lost lots of weight, because that tends to happen after the surgery temporarily.

Unknown Speaker 8:58

And he was on the show to espouse the benefits of this surgery and everyone should get it but he was already in the process of putting weight back on because he hadn't had his surgery maybe a year prior.

Unknown Speaker 9:13

But he was not fat positive and he still thought that the surgery was great and he went around to the country telling people about the surgery.

Unknown Speaker 9:22

So I I sometimes refer and often refer to the surgery as stomach amputation surgery. That's something that Marilyn Wan who is the author of fat so amazing book.

Unknown Speaker 9:36

She uses that term and the reason why she uses that term and the reason why I like that term, although it's not actually that accurate.

Unknown Speaker 9:45

Is because we want to show a not show how

Unknown Speaker 9:54

big this is how you are amputating a healthy organ in the pursuit

Unknown Speaker 10:00

have a smaller body. And the reason why it's not actually that accurate not as accurate is because sometimes people ambulating to amputate their stomach and sometimes they do other things.

Unknown Speaker 10:12

And the reason why I say weight loss in quotes weight loss surgery, because as you'll see that actually, the outcome

Unknown Speaker 10:27

for most people is not weight loss. So it should be called like temporary weight loss surgery where there's a shit ton of terrible side effects. So just so you know, before we get into it, that there are different types of, I'll call it I'll call it weight loss surgery, just for the sake of keeping things simple.

Unknown Speaker 10:47

There's different types of weight loss surgery. So there is the gastric band, which is when a like a circle, a band is put around someone's stomach, and then it is inflated with with liquid so that the stomach is made smaller. And that is something that you can have the band deflated so it's not squeezing the stomach. And that is what a lot of people have done after they've seen the side effects of having that gastric band. Another thing is, is the balloon, which is literally having a balloon,

Unknown Speaker 11:27

not one that you probably have at your birthday, but having a balloon

Unknown Speaker 11:31

in your stomach inflating so it makes the volume of his stomach getting smaller. Now there's also something called the gastric bypass, which is

Unknown Speaker 11:40

cutting off some stomach sometimes not cutting off stomach from what I've understood, sometimes it's literally just bypassing some of the intestines and so that you're not absorbing as much of the nutrients in that food. Therefore you're getting kind of less of the food and also your stomach is cut smaller sometimes so that

Unknown Speaker 12:04

you have a smaller stomach so you can't eat as much. And then the last one which is the called the sleeve which is where like I think about 90% of your stomach is cut off, thrown in the bin thrown in the garbage. And to be never seen again and you're left with they call it a sleeve because it's like a little sleeve like a little pocket. You can also get one which is like a tiny pouch. So that is just so we know what we're talking about that is what

Unknown Speaker 12:35

weight loss surgery

Unknown Speaker 12:38

is. Now I want to share with you the most common risks of weight loss surgery and obviously all surgery has risks. There is no surgery that is completely risk free. I don't remember there is I don't know but there's risks into it everything.

Unknown Speaker 12:57

But it has been said that weight loss surgery has the IS is the if not one of the riskiest surgeries for death and complication and also is the most expensive

Unknown Speaker 13:13

and the most money making for surgeons. So most common risks, hair loss ulcer leaks. I'll explain more about that in a minute. Gastric bleeding, bowel obstruction, gall stones. I've had gall stones I've had my gallbladder removed. I had I had gall stones from a from a child.

Unknown Speaker 13:34

I think it's it's something to do with with my blood. There's different reasons why you get bauxites Anyway, I had gall stones as as a kid, they fucking suck. I had to have my gallbladder removed, which sucked anyway, so gall stones suck, dehydration, acid reflux, anesthesia related risks, chronic nausea and vomiting, dilation of the esophagus, inability to eat certain foods infection, obstruction of the stomach, weight gain or failure to lose weight. Now the long term side effects are dumping syndrome. I'm gonna tell you what dumping syndrome is in a minute. Low blood sugar malnutrition, vomiting, ulcers, bowel obstruction and hernias dumping syndrome. It's basically what it sounds like shitting your pants so the this is all from the Mayo Clinic so the Mayo Clinic says dumping syndrome is a medical condition in which your stomach empties its contents into the first part of your small intestine. The duodenum faster than normal dumping syndrome is also known as rapid gastric emptying. People with dumping syndrome experience symptoms like nausea and abdominal cramping. These symptoms happen because your small intestine cannot absorb nutrients from food that has not been digested properly in the stomach. And you basically shut your pants have diarrhea

Unknown Speaker 15:01

So other side effects, you know, we mentioned about the malabsorption of nutrients. So nutrient deficiencies long term in this way,

Unknown Speaker 15:14

are really damaging to the body, and is a cause for neurological decline, which I didn't know about and premature aging of the body not like the way that you look, although I don't know. But that doesn't matter anyway.

Unknown Speaker 15:28

It a lot of people are not aware that the extent that they have to

Unknown Speaker 15:37

the tablets and the supplements that they need to take to get over this severe lack in food and what that does to your body. And so a lot of people have been told, Oh, just take a normal multivitamin that your regular Joe Schmo on the street takes, and that is like woefully inadequate to keep people have had the surgery healthy, it's actually the regimen that people need for the rest of their lives, can cost hundreds of dollars a month. And if you can't afford to do that, then it's going to have consequences on your health. Unfortunately.

Unknown Speaker 16:14

Something else that is really interesting is so this stuff here that I'm gonna be talking about is in Christie Harrison's book, anti diet, which is excellent, you should absolutely read it.

Unknown Speaker 16:27

And something that Christie talks about is that

Unknown Speaker 16:32

people who have this surgery, they have a doubled, doubled risk of substance abuse problems. And so alcohol or, or drugs, problems. And so these are people who previously didn't have any issues with with any substance abuse. And as well, substance abuse tends to manifest in younger people, so people in their 20s. But it showed that the study that I'm talking about showed that the substance abuse are happening to people in their 40s 50s and 60s, when they previously hadn't drunk alcohol. And now some people say, Oh, that's probably because if you have weight loss surgery, you're clearly addicted to food, the quotation marks on addicted, and so they're swapping one addiction for another. But actually, that is not what they found. Because one, food addiction isn't real. Now, food addiction isn't real. Because if you get more access to the thing, food that you that you desire, the food addiction behaviors and feelings decline. Whereas with a real addiction, the more access you have to drugs or alcohol, then your symptoms increase because you just want more and more and more. And so it's not an addiction. Also, studies have shown that the what happens in the brain, just like if you just have a hug from someone, or you see a picture of a cat, like when you have food, you need to have that

Unknown Speaker 18:11

those feel good hormones and chemicals in your brain need to be stimulated and activated. But not to the extent or something like drugs or alcohol. You know, we need to want to eat right, it's a part of what makes keeps us alive is the desire and the enjoyment around eating. But it's not the same as something that you can actually be addicted to. And as well people say, Oh, you can be addicted to sugar. Same No, you can't. It's because you've you get more access to it. Those, those feelings of addiction actually decline. So, so these people who had the substance abuse issues post surgery, it's because the because of the size of their stomachs, the alcohol hit their brains at double the

Unknown Speaker 19:04

rate that it normally works. So if they had two units of alcohol, it would feel in their brain that they had four. And so they were getting this high. And this burrs way more quickly, which in turn calls that addictive type behavior. And as well, because they could only have these teeny tiny stomachs they couldn't eat food to take away from the effects of the alcohol. So this is what was found in this study. Other things 4.6% of people who have the surgery are dead within a year and another study shows that three out of every 1000 People die within 30 days. Here's the kicker. Here's the kicker. Most people regain weight that was lost during after the surgery. So what happens normally, and obviously, every single person is different. So not everyone is going to have

Unknown Speaker 20:00

bad side effects, some people are going to be like I had weight loss surgery, it was best thing of my life. Now I'm really thin and happy, and I've had no side effects and everything's great. You know, there's going to be people who are like that, and there's going to be people who are somewhere in the middle, and there's going to be people who have died. So this is not kind of like a blanket, this is happening to everyone. But this is this is what the studies are showing. So what happens generally, is that within 12, to 18 months after the surgery, people have reached their lowest weight. And then from there, that is when the weight starts coming back on. And that is through no fault of their own. It's not because they're just, you know, these, these people are so greedy, that they're just eating all the food is because our bodies want to be at the weight that they have previously been at the setpoint weight. And when that's there's this extreme forced starvation, which is what it is, because when you have this surgery, you can only tiny amounts of food. So you know, very low, low calorie consumption, and only the the beautiful nutrients that we need to live as human beings. And so our body, exactly what happens when we are on a diet, our body does all the things it does to get you to a place where it's safe and happy because you're in this forced extreme starvation. So

Unknown Speaker 21:24

a quote from this study all of this, I'm going to link in the show notes. By the way, this study is called long term weight regain after gastric bypass a five year prospective study, quote, percent BMI loss was no longer significant after 24 months, and weight regain became significant within 48 months after surgery. So basically, people will lose weight, but then within five years, they've put the weight back on. So two years after the surgery, 46% of people have regained weight. And four years after the surgery, it's 63%. And presuming presumably, year after year, that number goes up and up and up because there's no reason for it to go down again, right. So chances are you have this weight loss surgery, it's not actually going to make you thin. Now, I want to share something from junk food science, which is an amazing website. And this is written by Sandy Sua. As I said, W A, R C swag. So I'm going to link to this as well. Quote, bariatric surgeries have been described as the as a gold rush in medicine because they're one of the most profitable medical procedures done today. According to Dr. Edward H. Livingston, MD professor of surgery at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. Last year, it was $7.8 billion industry and last year was when this was written was 2006 and enjoying exponential growth increasing some 1,100% since 1995. Continuing in the more than 40 years that bariatric surgeries have been performed, there have been no randomized controlled clinical trials that have shown any long term improvements to actual health, or that lives are saved or extended by the surgeries. Not any of the dozens of types and variations being performed and certainly none of the new procedures claiming to be better and safer. So the new new procedures that they're talking about here is the lap band stuff. According to quote unquote obesity researcher Dr. earns Berger PhD of Case Western Reserve School of Medicine Cleveland, Ohio, several clinical studies to examine the long term consequences and look for improved life expectancies have been started. But the results were never released. Quote, I think it's because it's bad news. Continuing the ECRI report, bariatric surgery for the quote unquote obese noted that the surgeries can produce significant significant initial weight loss. But three years after surgery, the typical patient is still quote unquote obese. Most importantly, they concluded that based on the quality and strength of the available evidence, claims of improved quality of life and long term health impacts are less conclusive. The Mayo Clinic reported in 2000. That's 20 to 25% of gastric bypass patients develop life threatening complications. But the recent LapBand clinical trials done to earn the FDA FDA approval reported 89% of patients had at least

Unknown Speaker 25:00

least one adverse event 1/3 of them severe complications from lap bands are more likely to require surgery to correct and the band's result in so, so much more vomiting. They are known as surgically induced bulimia among medical professionals. And finally, a recent study by researchers at Virginia Commonwealth University found that 56% of bariatric patients had 62 Different gastro intestinal complications and abnormalities by CT scans. So that is from junk food science, great resource for all the science on all fatty stuff. Something from another thing from Christie Harrison's book anti diet is Christie says that this is the most lucrative so surgical speciality and costs 15 to 25,000 US dollars per procedure and a lot of insurance companies won't pay for it.

Unknown Speaker 26:03

lindo bacon incredible wrote Health at Every Size body respect.

Unknown Speaker 26:10

Linda Bacon says bariatric surgery would be more appropriately labeled high risk disease inducing cosmetic surgery than unhealth than a health enhancing procedure.

Unknown Speaker 26:27

Hmm, well, well, well. Next, a study came out two years ago, remember when it came out about the increased suicide rates of people who've had the surgery. So I'm going to link to this as well. Quote from this study. based on their analysis, the estimated suicide rate for bariatric surgery population is 4.1 deaths per 10,000 patients, when compared to the World Health Organization's suicide data for the general population, the investigated, investigators reported a four fold increased risk of death by suicide among patients who underwent weight loss surgery, so you're four times more likely to die by suicide.

Unknown Speaker 27:23

Now, so we know all this, this is you know, if you have a surgeon who is ethical, they will present to you the realities of what this means now they're probably not going to say by the way, this is this surgery is 64% chance not going to result in weight loss, long term weight loss, you'll temporarily lose weight, and then you'll put it back on 64% chance of that, they're probably not going to say that, they're probably not going to tell you that you're going to have four times the risk of suicide, because that's a newest study came out a couple of years ago. But hopefully they reveal all of the other things and but some surgeons of the medical team supporting them don't really emphasize how much people's lives are changed, and how much they have to spend on care for themselves to make sure that they get enough

Unknown Speaker 28:24

vitamins and nutrients and all that type of stuff. And also you have the effect that not being able to eat food has on your life in general, because food is very social food is communities is like spending time with your community, and a way to

Unknown Speaker 28:43

share love and happy times and and as well, it could be something which is a great coping strategy for some people.

Unknown Speaker 28:52

Of course, not every fat person uses food as a coping strategy at all. But if that's taken away, that can be difficult if your family is having this big, beautiful meal and you can only a couple of things, you know, like if it's Christmas or Thanksgiving or whatever it is that can be very isolating, not being able to go out and on a night out with your friends or you know, things like that because you physically can't unless you go out and just had no sip some water. You know, your life is change in so many ways, and a lot of them are social. And then the how it feels for those who put on weight, which is the majority of people

Unknown Speaker 29:37

how much shame they must feel. I read. I read people's accounts and how they felt like they were the only one that they were so fucked up, that they couldn't control themselves so much that they even surgery couldn't help them because they were so out of control.

Unknown Speaker 30:00

All ingredients bad. But really, your body is doing exactly what it needs to do to keep you alive.

Unknown Speaker 30:09

So, something that Lisa Dubray Lisa debris is an incredible psychotherapist and clinical social worker says about people who get who go for the surgery. This is what Lisa says. What we know when we look at what research has been done is that a lot of fat people that are interested in pursuing these surgeries have really high rates of internalized weight stigma. There is a study that was done years ago that compared the psychological profiles of fat people going to Weight Watchers, and fat people pursuing weight loss surgery. And what they found was that the fat people that were going to Weight Watchers, their psychological profiles were in line with the general public. So about average rates of depression and anxiety and things like that. The fat folks that were pursuing weight loss surgery had psycho psychological profiles in line with psychiatric patients, meaning significant levels of mood disorders, anxiety, trauma, history, things like that. So again, it's not to say that everyone because we can't keep track of everyone, but you know, I think there's a lot of evidence to say that a lot of people that are pursuing an interest in in the surgery are feeling pretty desperate, and dealing with a lot of internalized weight stigma, and that doesn't get treated by the surgery.

Unknown Speaker 31:37

Another perspective about this is from Caitlyn andalo.

Unknown Speaker 31:43

Caitlyn is known as reframe your story on Instagram, I'm going to link to their account, and Caitlyn on on their Instagram shared a picture of the belly. With surgical scars. They're just like little, little things little puts in in their belly. And this is what it goes along with that image. This is what my eating disorder looked like five small incisions from my weight loss surgery, there was no part of me that made a decision to have weight loss surgery from a place of self love. It came from deep self hatred and a longing to be accepted. I told myself, it didn't have to do with weight loss, it was about my health. I thought I was a ticking time bomb and that if I stay in this body, it would inevitably lead to health issues. I thought it would be only a matter of time.

Unknown Speaker 32:41

When the majority of society views your body as part of an epidemic, and a strain on society, it makes sense that a person would want to change that. So people make the decision to have their stomachs banded, amputated, and rerouted, they are encouraged by doctors and by other professionals to put a permanent physical restriction on themselves. The most sick part of this is that I knew and wanted there to be pain if I ate one bite too many. So I had to face the consequences of living in my body. The true consequence of all of this, and a lifetime of being told my body was wrong, was falling deeper into my eating disorder behaviors. And for that I was praised. People who didn't even really know me would come up and tell me how inspired they were by my weight loss. Regardless of intention, praising my weight loss was praising my eating disorder. So that is from reframe your story on Instagram, Caitlin on delay.

Unknown Speaker 33:48

Now, another account of weight loss surgery because by the way, in case

Unknown Speaker 33:58

it wasn't obvious, I haven't had any surgery. Myself, although weight weight loss surgery or bariatric surgery.

Unknown Speaker 34:06

Hello? How fucking Yes, did I want it? I remember being a teenager watching those. Those shows, I think in the US are called like Girls Gone Wild. But it was like the UK version where young young people went to like Ibiza and stuff and they would they would show their text to the camera. And I remember sitting on the sofa watching that late at night seeing girls showing their tits and being like, I'm not thin, like they're my, my tits don't look like this. I can't become thin. So I really want to have bariatric surgery. That was like my goal. And I was at that time I was a child. I was probably 15 1617 Something like that. But I was just like, oh, one day when I'm old enough. I'm going to get that and that is going to fix my problem.

Unknown Speaker 35:01

So anyway, so I haven't had it but I definitely did dream about having it. Now someone who had it recently and someone that is quite well known is Roxane Gay. Roxane Gay is the author of you might recognize Roxanne from

Unknown Speaker 35:16

her books, hunger and bad feminist and she has other books too, but they probably the most recognizable. Roxanne wrote a brilliant piece on her decision to have surgery. And

Unknown Speaker 35:31

what happened on medium? Again, I'm going to link to that in the shownotes. But let me I'm going to read some quotes from that piece. This is not the whole piece in total, and these are just kind of snippets. So Roxanne says, I capitulated to a procedure after more than 15 years of resistance and how the sleeve gastrectomy at the UCLA Ronald Reagan Hospital in January 2018. I told only a few people, I did not tell my family, I felt in equal parts hope, defeat, frustration, and disgust. She continues.

Unknown Speaker 36:12

The truth is that my desire for weight loss has long been about satisfying other people more than myself, finding a way to fit more peacefully into a world that is not at all interested in accommodating a body like mine. And the dominant culture cultural attitude towards fatness is that the fat body is a medical problem a drain on society and aesthetic blight. As a fat person, I'm supposed to want to lose weight. I'm supposed to be working on the problem of my body. I'm supposed to apply discipline to physical unruliness. I'm not supposed to be fine with my body I'm not supposed to yearn simply for people to let me be to see me accept me and treat me with dignity exactly as I am.

Unknown Speaker 37:01

She continues. After more than 15 years of refusing it, I made the decision to get weight loss surgery. On an ordinary day. At home in Lafayette, Indiana, a young man yelled at me to move my fat black ass. While I was crossing a grocery store parking lot to my car. It was the last straw. I tried to hold my head high shuffled as quickly as I could put my groceries in my car and sat behind the steering wheel. I sat there shaking, wishing I could have been as quick in that moment to put him in his place as I would have been online. I wanted to call someone for comfort. But I was at a silent impasse with the only person to whom I could talk. Instead, I pressed my head against the steering wheel and sobbed when I collected myself I drove home and went to bed. I hoped I might not wake up, but I did.

Unknown Speaker 38:04

She continues.

Unknown Speaker 38:06

The dominant narrative around weight loss surgery is that it changes your life and makes everything better. It is a lovely fantasy that by cutting yourself open and having parts of yourself removed. Everything that weighed you down will be lifted. But it is only a fantasy. She continues.

Unknown Speaker 38:26

They saw the psychologist I saw for my pre surgical evaluation warmed her that warns that the first year is really difficult. And many patients end up suffering from depression and regretting the surgery. The second year is better, she said, trying to reassure me after my face fell, and she was right. I am depressed and miserable. I am cold all the time and exhausted because I'm only eating between 12 115 100 calories. I'm filled with regrets because everything has changed. But everything is exactly the same.

Unknown Speaker 39:01

She continues, I've replaced one set of anxieties with another. I worry I'm eating too much and stretching my new stomach something I was warned about repeatedly and vigorously. I have brief moments where I allow myself to imagine hiking Runyon Canyon or wearing a fabulous outfit because it is available in my size or going to see a musical without having to make special arrangements. And then I tell myself to get a hold of myself. I tell myself to not want I tell myself that I've failed to dismiss discipline my body before and I will probably fail this time too. I tell myself these things because I've carried this weight for almost 30 years. And it is terrifying to face who I could be without it.

Unknown Speaker 39:44

So that is excerpts from a piece that Roxane Gay wrote on medium and it's called what fullness is so you can find that on medium. Or you can just go to the show notes where the link is going to be there for you.

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Now, Roxanne is I don't know, Roxanne's

Unknown Speaker 40:08

exact size. But I know that

Unknown Speaker 40:12

she, I think that she might be a super fat. I know from reading her work that, you know, even just reading that piece not being able to fit in to go to a theater without making arrangements beforehand. So I'm presuming that I know, she's not a small fat person, she is a, she's a large fat person, she is a super fat, she might be an inferior fat, I don't know for sure. But

Unknown Speaker 40:34

I want to recognize that she's also a woman, she's also a black woman

Unknown Speaker 40:40

walking through the world with these different intersections, and I don't know if she has other the other things

Unknown Speaker 40:49

is really fucking difficult. So why wouldn't you take that chance at living a life which, of course, you know, a lot of weight loss places will paint it as this you know, very and roses and you know, fairy tale and roses and unicorns and all that type of stuff. But, you know,

Unknown Speaker 41:12

we're intelligent, we know that it's probably going to be hard and all that type of stuff.

Unknown Speaker 41:18

But I don't know what it's like to be a fatter than I am, to, to be black. To be also in the public eye. Roxanne shares in this article about how people constantly make memes of her have images of her and, and tweet them at her. And she's constantly barraged with people reminding her that her body is not good. And so it makes total sense to me, that Roxanne words elect for surgery, that pressure must be immense that the weight of people's expectations, like she mentioned in this article, she did it for other people, basically,

Unknown Speaker 42:02

it must be overwhelming, even if there's a almost 5% chance that you will die. For a lot of people.

Unknown Speaker 42:12

They are close to dying right now. But the thing is, the thing that's really heartbreaking is that for most people, this won't make them thin.

Unknown Speaker 42:25

And I don't think that people know that when they go into the surgery that 64% chance, just after four years. And we don't have the data past that, because there's been 1000s of studies on weight loss surgery, but only a tiny, tiny, teeny tiny fraction are actually usable. Because the rest aren't good science. And so we have hardly any data. And also a big problem when it comes to the science around this stuff. Is that the follow up with patients after a certain amount of years, the patients don't come back for follow up. Now, I don't know for sure. But I can guess why would a patient not come back for follow up? Because they're fat, again, they've put weight on. And they've blamed themselves versus blaming a faulty product, weight loss surgery.

Unknown Speaker 43:24

And I know in the States, it's you know,

Unknown Speaker 43:28

it's for profit. And so it's going to be even more, you know, worse and extreme and, and unethical practices and all that type of stuff. But of course, every country has weight loss surgery, and as well.

Unknown Speaker 43:42

Talking about weight loss surgery for children. And I want to roundhouse kick kick people in the face who thinks that is appropriate to

Unknown Speaker 43:51

amputate and healthy organ over from a child?

Unknown Speaker 43:56

Oh, dear God, please, all those people who those children have had it done already. I just want to just go and hug them and tell them that their body is perfect. And obviously I wouldn't do that because they'd be like, go away. It's weird. I'm just trying to put on my bike or whatever. But

Unknown Speaker 44:10

so, weight loss surgery, some people will lose weight and keep it off. We don't really know what percent. What we do know is that most people won't. But imagine if you know you're thinking as I did going into diets, well, I'm going to be with diets 95% Fail. I'm going to be the 5% because I really want this I'm really desperate to be thin. And so let's pretend that you are that that percent that is able to lose weight. That question the question that I would want to consider is but at what cost? I always think about the the unicorns who do lose weight, what their life is like, what they're having to do.

Unknown Speaker 45:00

do to maintain that weight loss? How are they eating? How are they relating to food? Are they forcing themselves to move their body bodies in ways that they don't? Like? What's their mental health? Like? Are they happy? Are they fulfilled? Do they like their body? Do they hate themselves, it's super painful, this stuff is super painful. And it makes absolute sense that people would choose this is your choice, you can do anything that you want to your body, of course, but looking at the statistics around it, it's not actually effective. And the amount of side effects remember that one said 89% of people from the lap band had at least one side effect. And most people had severe side effects, like

Unknown Speaker 45:49

you have to make decision is it worth it for you to be constantly shitting your pants because of the dumping syndrome, to be vomiting all the time to not be able to enjoy meals with people in the way that you did before, to have gastro intestinal issues to have

Unknown Speaker 46:09

a hardcore regimen of of tablets that you need to take every day to try and get the nutrients that you would have got previously from food to have your life change. And you for a lot of people, they can't reverse it. Especially you've had if you've had your stomach amputated, that's gone into being that's long gone, you can't grow your stomach back. It's irreversible.

Unknown Speaker 46:30

Is that worth a one in three chance for you to be smaller, but also have unknown side effects? And no, I don't know. You know,

Unknown Speaker 46:42

it's not my place to say you shouldn't do it. I personally wouldn't do it. Because obviously, I think that my body is fine as it is. And I know that if I want to become healthy that there are you know, if I want to improve health, there are lots of different ways that you can do that without working to try and lose weight, which is ineffective. So yeah, so that is weight loss surgery, aka bariatric surgery, aka stomach amputation surgery. I wanted to talk about this. It's kind of like a

Unknown Speaker 47:12

one of those things that's been on my mind mind for a while. And I don't know if it's if it's obvious Me, either. But I wanted to clearly state that, if you've had this surgery doesn't mean that you're, you're bad or you're not smart, or you're, you're you're it's all about vanity or any no like or if you're thinking about it, or if you're going to get it done. This shit is difficult. Living as a fat person is hard. You know. And so a lot of people come back to me, and they're like, Oh, I followed you for a bit. But then I went away because I wanted to do another diet. And guess what, you know, it's failed. And, and I'm like, I get it. I get it. Why not? If you think that you've got this last chance to be happy, to be healthy, to have a rich and full life. And you think that it might work for you? Why would you not take that? But do you have all the information? Hopefully, this podcast has given you a lot of information that maybe people haven't previously shared.

Unknown Speaker 48:23

So it makes sense that people have it. You're not a bad person, if you have it, you're not a bad person if you're planning on having it.

Unknown Speaker 48:30

Because shit, life is complicated. But just know, the chances are, it won't make you thin and won't make you healthy.

Unknown Speaker 48:42

It probably won't make you happy. In fact, you're more likely to die by suicide. Okay, so let's move into the stories that people are sharing. And these are all public comments on my most recent Instagram post and the most recent Instagram post is an overview of all of these stats, right, a quick overview. Also what I've done is since since I recorded that episode, I have collected even more studies about the weight loss surgery and we have 1-234-567-1819 2021 2230 620-728-2931 31 studies supporting this stuff. So little alarm. If you're late or in science, then go ahead something to note with the studies. If you want to know about things to look out for in studies about how to read them. We have an episode on that.

Unknown Speaker 49:51

So go back a few episodes if you want to know about like how to read science

Unknown Speaker 49:58

and because

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Sometimes people who are presenting information can can be share things in a way, which is maybe not as, you know, what their, what their findings are. And so you might see the summary and it says people lost loads of weight or a significant reduction in weight and and then you'll look into it and actually see

Unknown Speaker 50:27

it was like two pounds or like what does what do they mean by that? And so if you click on any of these studies, it says that you know, fat people are losers, go and look and see what it actually says. Because and of course, a lot of these studies are just showing you know what we're talking about the episode. So let's talk about stories. And by the way, show notes. First of all, e forward slash episode we on 165

Unknown Speaker 50:53

We find it and refine it. Revita is at 175. Yes, what is x five? For all of these links? And there's more links as well outside of those things. Who a lot of stuff.

Unknown Speaker 51:07

What else do I need to tell you? Oh, yeah, if you'd like this then if you liked this episode, and you appreciate the work that I do, go to cofee link in the show notes. Bio cofee first fatty and you can send me a coffee or you can

Unknown Speaker 51:22

subscribe to get free stuff from me. Yeah, so if you like, if you like the stuff you're hearing go do that if you don't, and you know, don't.

Unknown Speaker 51:33

Okay, so I'm gonna read the stories now. Trigger warning on hearing awful shit about surgery, you know? So, yeah, and by the way, I'm presenting the information of people who haven't had a good time with the surgery, because I think it's important to share those stories because

Unknown Speaker 51:57

often, we only hear the opposite stories. There is like, the tiniest corner on the internet, just like a tiny little, you know, area that talks about the adverse effects of weight loss surgery. And 99.99%. That's not real stat of places talk about how great surgery is. So there's a few people commenting like maybe one or two.

Unknown Speaker 52:22

One, commenting saying I had a good experience one or two maybe.

Unknown Speaker 52:28

And we have a number of comments on that post. But overwhelmingly, people are saying this was fucked up and I think it's important to share their stories. Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 52:40

stories from followers responding to my post about bariatric surgery. My mum almost died in 2013 from an internal hernia related to a gastric bypass. She hadn't 2007 Thankfully, thankfully, she has recovered, still struggles with digestive issues daily, but it was incredibly scary, scary and the insurance company denied all claims because they said it was a complication related to the surgery. Two weeks in the ICU under medical sedation, seven surgeries four more weeks in the hospital, four weeks in a nursing home and because she was discharged too soon, she was back in the hospital two more times. Anytime I hear anyone talk about having weight loss surgery, I tell them about my mum, no matter how well I know them. My aunt had the surgery in the 80s when she was should I share weight?

Unknown Speaker 53:33

No, I'm not gonna share weight when she was fat, and again in the 90s because the staples used to close the wounds literally tore apart inside her. She never lost any weight and after surgery, seven surgeries seven surgeries have over four decades. She's 80 and a super fat person. She spent her whole life hating her body and in pain trying to change it. Her story is heartbreaking. And even though everyone saw up and down her life would be a short one aside from the surgeries and the complications from them. She's healthy, healthy, and we'll likely see 90

Unknown Speaker 54:09

I had a gastric sleeve and 2019 Develop SEER good, unknown complication of the sleeve and was revised to bypass in 2020 has since regained much of the

Unknown Speaker 54:22

significant weight loss I initially lost. It's not the cure I expected and hoped for it didn't fix my quote diet brain on my eating habits. I have come to realize that I will never be in a small body and I'm learning how to appreciate the body I have for what it can do. Would I go back and do the surgery knowing what I know now? I don't think so. Although the process did lead me to where I am now with body acceptance and neutrality. It took a desperate act to make me take a serious look at what was really happening in my mind. I'm a much better I'm in a much better place now. I had lap banding here in Australia but

Unknown Speaker 55:00

In 2014, lost significant amount of weight. And then I started to stop substituting my meals for another addiction. I was consuming two liters of wine every second night, I started gaining back all the weight and stuffed my heart with with years of yo yo dieting.

Unknown Speaker 55:21

I'm not at my heaviest and dealing with more issues, and I had pre surgery, pretty sure I should be diagnosed with an eating disorder. People think purging is okay. But honestly, it's a side effect. What's healthy about cutting an organ in half? Nothing. I have nothing against people who choose to go this path, but I think there should be more psychological component to it. And one of those those is getting it signed off by a dietician who specializes in haze, and a clearance from from a disordered eating or eating just or D eating disorder in general. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot of people say that

Unknown Speaker 55:57

they're hoping that their eating disorder or disordered eating or diet brain will go away after they have surgery. But it doesn't, they just can't eat

Unknown Speaker 56:11

as much

Unknown Speaker 56:13

but their brain is still in the exact same place. And really what needs to happen is that they they need to have support to overcome their their EDI, you know, not not add on this another layer that's going to complicate

Unknown Speaker 56:30

their recovery. I lost a friend earlier this month to complications from gastric bypass this hits home and I hope folk share it wide within our community. We have to protect each other because they don't care if we survive.

Unknown Speaker 56:45

And that's the thing is we don't hear from the people that die, right. We don't hear their stories because they're not here to tell them. I had a non invasive version of gastric bypass when my stomach was sewn up only I wasn't given any support and left to deal with it myself, which I did. I follow God I follow the gastric bypass diet etc became horribly obsessive and could barely function on five to 800 calories a day, my weight started creeping up again, despite sticking to that low number of calories. I had no choice I would get horribly sick or dumping syndrome if I went over that. I already had autoimmune liver disease. And they had talked me into this as a way of improving that improving my stomach issues and improving what they said was non alcoholic fatty liver disease, which two years later, after two MRIs they concluded I never even had, they ended up asking me to increase my calories and food intake because my liver markers started to worsen rapidly and continually.

Unknown Speaker 57:44

I started having issues with everything else I acquired more food intolerances, I couldn't continue to put on weight, which meant my diet of five to 800 calories was definitely not allowing me to function. It took me a year to increase my daily intake to enough to function again. By that point I put on all the weight that on that I had lost my liver markers did start to improve but never returned returned to what they were before the procedure, which was stable. I had constant stomach issues by then I'm still being offered weight loss surgery. Despite how badly a reversible version went. I only started eating normal portions of food late last year because of the meds I am on now. Prednisone although being on steroids has improved my stomach issues that I've had since since and food intolerances have improved too.

Unknown Speaker 58:32

Isn't it wild that even though

Unknown Speaker 58:35

these people who've had surgeries, they'll continue to be pushed surgeries even after they had surgeries and the surgery didn't work.

Unknown Speaker 58:44

And here's another thing is, a lot of times they say something is reversible. And it can be but sometimes it's not.

Unknown Speaker 58:54

Sometimes your stomach will never get back to what it was before. And sometimes your body in the way it functions will never get back to the way it was before. So the procedure might be reversible, but the effects that it has on your on your body and your mental health might not be reversible.

Unknown Speaker 59:12

I had gastric sleeve done in 2021 to reverse liver damage done by my birth control. My hepatologist told me weight loss was the only cure for it.

Unknown Speaker 59:21

That's not true. The surgery did fix my liver, but it also gave me good and other health complications. Even now my body will randomly reject foods and make me vomit. I found the entire process to be dehumanizing. And the majority of the bat bariatric community that I interacted with was incredibly toxic.

Unknown Speaker 59:40

Something to consider even if one's insurance company does pay for the initial procedure. They often do not pay for any subsequent necessary revision surgeries to address complications. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Unknown Speaker 59:54

Think about, you know, the poor Americans who don't have health care

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

and you're just left

Unknown Speaker 1:00:02

with really expensive consequences,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:06

which are not supported around.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:09

Okay, so here's someone who was a detractor. And I want to share their comment, and then someone else's comment, because I thought that that was was helpful and interesting. So this person says, this post is extremely disappointing. Most of these facts are exaggerated or only partial facts, this kind of post perpetuates a systemic bias against weight loss surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:35

By the way, there is no systemic bias against weight loss surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:45

It's the opposite.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:48

Like, there's like, you know, like I mentioned, there's hardly anywhere that you can find any information on the negative negative outcomes of weight loss surgery. Okay, so this post perpetuates the systemic bias against weight loss surgery, which further stigmatize is the procedure for those who could benefit from it. And as someone who's going through the process to get it right now, none of these facts line up with a current research. The procedures have come a long way since 30 years ago, and when they were still using lap bands, shame on you.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:17

So this person is in it right there in it.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:22

And so someone responded, and I thought this, this response was, was interesting. So someone responded to that comment and said, I gotta say, I sounded exactly like you months before my RN, Why ruin why? As a type of surgery, I had a smattering of friends that tried to convince me to rethink my decision that provided the information that this post is giving you, I wish I would have listened. But I was so stuck in the mind. Fuck that the surgeons paid for corporations, I later discovered, were feeding me, my surgeon literally told me, I've been doing this surgery for a decade and never saw one complication, which I later learned was a lie, a big lie. Sidenote, surgeons don't have that follow up information, right? You know, you know, a surgeon who does a surgery might you might follow up in a few weeks after your, after your surgery. Three months, let's be generous, let's say a year post surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:23

And, and so people a lot of time at the year point are in their honeymoon period of Oh, great. I've lost loads of weight. And then in the subsequent years, that's when things start fucking up.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:35

And then the surgeons don't get to see that, right? They don't get to see the real life impact of mutilating someone's body. And they and they don't people have the surgery don't have that support. Because you know, the surgeons are like, see you later, right? I've done my job. So the surgeon could have genuinely thought that, oh, people don't have complications, because they don't have that experience of seeing people with complications. But

Unknown Speaker 1:03:04

that does sound like a lie to say I've never seen someone have complications. I mean, that's I mean, especially for surgery like this. That is that's that's

Unknown Speaker 1:03:14

risky, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:17

Okay, a little a little alone. Okay, so I let it let it learn. It was a big line. And the mindfuck the dye industry fed me that being skinny equals being healthy here. I said eight years, three years later, reading a rebuttal, I easily could have made myself not knowing how much less healthy I'd be after surgery, and that I'd regain almost all of my weight back not because I quote didn't follow the rules didn't stick to the program. But literally because my body, it's hormones, its composition and how I process the fuel I give it fights every day to be at the body size, I am predetermined to be at, please quiet that mindfuck is long enough to read the responses to this post, then have a conversation with yourself about why you're having the surgery. That's all I suggest. Because I wish someone would have told me what we are telling you now.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:09

Yeah, so when you're in it, you know, you know, when you're in diet, culture, diet land.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:16

It's really hard to hear this stuff, right. It's really hard. And some people

Unknown Speaker 1:04:22

won't be able to they won't be able to hear it. It's not they're not at that point. And I wish that we could share this information and then people were like, oh, okay, you know, thank you and whatever and maybe this isn't the best option for me or what you know, whatever happens. But I think back to when I was in diet land.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:45

If someone said to me, listen, by the way, you know, I know you're in Weight Watchers right now and you're even one of those people that weighs people that comes into Weight Watchers and you know, I know that you know that you've lost weight and you've been successful because you worked hard, not like those other lazy people.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

But no, you're gonna put on way and it's not gonna work and Allah Allah, I would have been like, Fuck off, fuck you, I would have been so angry.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:11

And so

Unknown Speaker 1:05:13

you know, and that person said said, shame on you, to me, I would have probably said something like that to shame on you, I'm doing something good for my health, and you're lying to me about these things. I'm living proof that diets work because I've managed to keep lose weight and keep it off for like, two months. So

Unknown Speaker 1:05:32

you know, it would have been very, very difficult and impossible. And so

Unknown Speaker 1:05:37

I think this information is helpful for people who are who would like gathering information and who are open and curious and who aren't maybe necessarily really, really invested in diet culture and, and anti fat bias.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:52

Because if we want the surgery, and we've just, you know, we, you know, all of the hopes and the dreams that come from potentially being thinner from a surgery, we're gonna, we're gonna go and google

Unknown Speaker 1:06:05

success stories after best bariatric surgery, right? Wouldn't you be I would be, I'd be Googling like, all of these people who have a wonderful outcomes and being like, Oh my God, that's gonna be me. Oh my god, like, in a year's time, I'm gonna be so thin. And when I'm thin, then I'm gonna be you know, everyone's gonna really want to have sex with me and I'm going to be so successful and I'm going to wear thin clothes and Lola it's someone coming along and and saying that that that is not a reality for many people. I would have been really mad and told them to fuck off. So, you know. Okay, continuing more comments. My first job as an RD was in clinical saw too many patients with poor outcomes following weight loss surgery. Thank you for this post. My mum had the band surgery in the early 2000s lost a ton of weight, because she couldn't keep anything down. anytime she tried to eat majority of the time, she'd end up only having a few bites and then having to throw up. This got so bad that she decided to have it reversed. Fast forward to 2020 and she decided to do the gastric sleeve, despite COVID Being new and in full swing. Despite the fact that she had a transplant. She is a transplant patient and a diabetic couldn't wait, made her mind up and then did it. I went to the pre op appointment and had a long list of questions. Of course, the doctor made everything seems super positive and great and no negatives. Like this is a difficult like this is difficult to reverse or that she's likely to have mineral or nutritional imbalances in her stomach acid would be fucked, etc, etc. Again, she's lost a lot of weight, but she's also back to barely being able to eat anything. Just seems like an awful way to live. She's pressuring me to do it on and off. She thinks this is a great answer. We have pretty opposite feelings when it comes to loving your body. And it is an IT is nurturing. Nurturing it versus laser focused on must be thin. These surgeries are wack. It must be really hard to see that. And also it makes me think about the really strong pool that anti fatness has that even though this person's mum had a terrible time and had it reversed that pool, that that pressure of anti fatness is so strong that she's willing to try again, even though she had that shit time.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:26

So it just goes to show how powerful this stuff is. Someone says, Oh, very cool. They want to do this to two children. Yeah. So since since I made that original episode

Unknown Speaker 1:08:40

it was the American Academy of Pediatrics came out and said that they want to do the surgeries on children. I think I'm gonna make a podcast episode about it. I've been avoiding it. I don't know why. Because I feel like you know, other people have spoken about it. So what's important me talking about it? Well, maybe you want to hear my opinion? My opinion is it's fucked.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:02

Yeah, having a roux en y gastric bypass is the single biggest regret of my entire life. I really wish I knew better and never did it. I weigh more now than when I had the surgery done. I have reactive hypoglycemia, adequate. adequately treating my pain I have is a huge issue because I can't take an S A I D s like I prefer ibuprofen and the list goes on.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:30

Having had it myself I can totally concur. Worst thing ever. The whole thing from start to now has been a shitshow I'm having my gastric band removed finally after 11 years of utter hell and medical professionals are still say saying with a straight face. Oh yeah, we don't do those anymore. They're not good. But as you're still morbidly obese, why don't you have an have a bypass instead?

Unknown Speaker 1:09:53

I had surgery and only kept weight off for a few years. It really takes a toll on your mental health. I felt like I had to starve myself. Just

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

Then, once I began to eat food again, I gained it back, not all just most and now my mental health is worse. I was nicer and happier before I had the surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:10

I had my gastric bypass in 2013. I don't regret it as it allowed me to access fertility treatment, and was the only way I would have been eligible. So you look at that, that systemic anti fat bias not being able to access a basic human right of fertility treatment. I've regained weight through early menopause. There is pretty much zero research on the effects of bariatric on menopause and the hormone levels and my mental health and body images taken a lot to work to fix post surgery. Weight loss isn't a cure for anything.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:46

A close family member had a very invasive gastric bypass at 69 years old or like that does 69

Unknown Speaker 1:10:56

part of the impetus was to be considered for much needed knee surgery. They are now 85 Living with eggshell fragile bones. Yes, because it's really, it's really can be really bad for your bones. If anyone reading this is considering the surgery, I urge you to really consider what your life will look like as you age. This is too far too often glossed over. Yeah. Wow. And all that was done in 16 years basically eggshell fragile bones in so they had the surgery at 69. Now they're 85. Hopefully they got their knee surgery.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:35

I can tell you from personal experience LapBand was horrible. I was so malnourished, I had to get it removed. I had my best friend die two weeks after gastric bypass surgery. I had a friend who had a had failed lap bands. So he got the sleeve. And he analyzed himself one year later, it's not worth it.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:55

Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:57

that person has had two people who have died due to it.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:03

I knew a hospital RN who's floor had an acronym for all the folks back after back in after the surgeries. So RN registered nurse I had a hospital nurse who had an acronym GB GB gastric bypass gone bad. It's more common than anyone let's on. I was all booked to go to Estonia in 2019 to have a gastric sleeve. A week before a 20 year old 22 year old woman died from complications. She was a member of a weight loss surgery Facebook group I was in a council straightaway and I don't regret it the risk of losing half an organ isn't worth it. The risk and losing half an organ isn't worth it. heartbreaking stories out there. The amount of people telling me to go for it. And that were disappointing. I didn't go showed me how much my fatness bothered some people around me.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:54

My inlaw got a surgery where they made her stomach like half its size and now it literally takes her and an entire day to work her way through a single meal.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:06

So if you want to

Unknown Speaker 1:13:09

comment your story, if you want to go read more stories then go to that post

Unknown Speaker 1:13:17

in some way Instagram it will be right at the top

Unknown Speaker 1:13:21

Yeah, and I hope that you take care of yourself if any of this has been difficult and triggering for you because she this is this is pretty violent stuff that they push on to fat people and if you're considering it and have had it done and a feeling any type of way about yourself that you are you know bad in any way or or feeling you're feeling like shit and you know I don't want I don't want that to you know you to feel like that and you know who's to blame for all of this stuff. It's not you it's a systemic anti fat bias that is super violent. And so if you're feeling any type of shame for any reason, any reason hold a mirror up pointing that shame back to where it needs to belong the person you know the systems that are perpetuating anti fat bias so

Unknown Speaker 1:14:20

well thanks for hanging out with me today. Again if you like the show and you want to support me go to the show notes go to Kofi KOF I

Unknown Speaker 1:14:31

first fatty and you can send me five bucks if you want or more.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:37

And I appreciate you being here

Unknown Speaker 1:14:41

and stay fierce fatty. I'll see you in a while Oh alligator goodbye II

Unknown Speaker 1:14:57

perfect.

Episode 164 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 164 What would you say to someone who claimed you are promoting the “O” word? Let's go.

Speaker 1 0:25

Hello, and welcome to today's episode, we have some exciting news. You you glorious, gorgeous human being you. We have got to my first ko fee income goal of $680 hairs which is enough to produce one month of fatty podcast advert free. Now it's taken a few months to get there. And honestly, I'm surprised that people want to donate don't cofee. Like, oh, what is this, and we got to the goal was $680. Amazing. Thank you so much. I love you. You're amazing. I said amazing and awesome. Probably too many times there. And so I've come up with a new goal, the new goal is six months worth of podcast episodes. Ooh, that's $4,080, which seems audacious. But you know what, I'm gonna sit in that audacity, I'm gonna be audacious. And I've added two new things, two new things to the doobly doo. WWE due to the tiers. So Tier one is the same, you get the size diversity Resource Guide, which is funds Hans doc. But tier two, you also get the first fatty science spreadsheet with an overview of science that weighed science. And it has like the year it was published the link to the study and overview of the study, and what categories it will fall into. There's not all of the weight science in the world in there. Because if I gave you that, then it would be overwhelming and horrible. And I don't even have it myself. But I do have a spreadsheet region where I have loads and loads and loads more science, but people want that they can have it. But I think one which is more clear and concise is better. Anyway, that's what you get for the tier two to Tier one is $5 a month. Tier Two is $10 to three $20 you will get all of those things. Plus you'll get a handwritten note from me in the post social media shout out you get that on tier two, actually. And you'll get a thing in the post as well. Which is I'm showing it on the video. It's a double sided postcard one size side says says fat liberation is the future. The other side says this is a fat positive space on there. I'm going to frame one of mine, because I think it looks good. Yeah, so if you want if you want to have a little thing a little it's all it's on card. So it'd be nice to frame. It's nice to gauges to get it printed. Well I say ages like 10 days, but like ages, months, 10 days. Yeah, so some little extra perks there for you. If you're already a subscriber, I sent you an email with extra stuff. So you can get that so you don't miss out. All right. So if you want to go donate cofee, it's in the show notes K ofI for slash first party in the show notes. If you want the links to anything we're talking about today in the episode, the podcast episode is 164. So that's first fatty. Oh 164. And all you can always do first for a forward slash podcast to find the most recent version. So today, we've got listener questions. If you have a question about the show, feel free to email me feel free to send me a message on the also groans put a shout out saying Who is it? We've got questions? We've got it. We've got questions. And we've got some cool ones. K Aw, ll ll Hello a cool ones. So let's do it. Let's go through the questions. First question is Hi Vinny. I really appreciate all of the labor you invest in the prefab movement. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm currently experiencing a health issue and I'm losing weight. Sorry to hear that about your health issue. Of course everyone wants to praise it. Boo. Do you have any recommendations for ways that people can respond that makes someone think about why they're praising weight loss without knowing the whole story? snarky as welcome. Okay, this is a great question. And I think this as well can be helpful for people who have any types of comments about their body. Like if people are like you've put on weight, or people just sometimes, depending on the culture and the age and where you're at where you are, people can just as an automatic, just comment about your body. In Ireland, all of my relatives will say, You look well. And I interpret that as you look pretty or thin or not sick, or I've always like, when younger when I was younger, I was always interpreted it as you look thin, but they say all the time to everyone. So I know they don't actually mean it. It's just a saying, right. But anyway, some people will have a lot of people who do talk about their weight. But in this case, someone has lost weight unintentionally. And people are like, I lost my congratulation. Which must, if that happened to me, it would get on my flaps something chronic. So here's some of that one liners. I love that you mentioned snackies welcome. Okay. So imagine someone says, Oh, my God, you've lost weight. You look amazing. You could say I'm losing weight because I am sick. I know you don't mean to praise my ill health. But you are. And of course change any any words that you want. Because you didn't say sick, you said health issue. Or you could just say, I am sick. I have a health issue. See what they say? Oh, I bet I bet this is what I reckon someone's gonna be like, Oh, no, I'm sorry about that. Well, at least there's a positive side effect. You look amazing. And then I would be like, Well, I actually really like being fat. And I can't wait to like, put weight back on. Hopefully, if I get better. And see they're kind of like, No, that's a computer brain going. I don't understand. You know that that meme. That woman was all the I don't know who is. It's like a white middle aged lady with loads of like, calculus, math stuff around her head. looking confused. Yeah. Okay, what else you could say is, weight loss for me is a sign that there is something wrong. Another one. It's strange that you monitor my body size. It's not okay to comment on people's weight. I'm curious. Why do you think me losing weight is a good thing, that my approach would be more kind of like, asking them a question. That's always my response. Like, what do you mean? What do I Oh, I look thinner. Do you think that being thinner is a good thing? And see them be like, Oh, we will? Or whatever they say they could say yes. And you could say well, I don't agree with you, actually. Okay, next, I am uncomfortable that you were talking about my body. Can you not so weird? Talking about someone's body? Imagine you can't imagine this. It's happened to you many times. Next, do you know why you have a smaller body right now? And they'll say, I don't know. Tell me what have you been doing keto? Atkins, herbs up your match? And you'll say no, actually, it's because I have a health issue. Please think twice before praising what weight loss. Next, you do realize that people lose weight outside of being committed to anti fat bias, right. My weight loss is not intentional. I hope I stay fat forever. I love being fat. I was I was a picture on my wall that says I hope I'm fat forever.

Speaker 1 9:38

Love it. Next one. Why do you think that me having a smaller body is important or noteworthy. Do you think that is something that is important to me? Next, why are you praising weight loss, especially as I haven't brought up my weight? So You have no idea why I've lost weight. It's because of an illness. FYI, I really hope I feel better soon and put my weight back on. Being fat is awesome. It makes me sad that you think I am better slash more attractive, etc. because my body is smaller. You could also say if someone's like, Oh my God, have you lost where you can like, Yeah, I know, it's so sad that I've lost weight. This gorgeous fatty body is shrinking away. And I don't know like it, I'd probably do something like that being like, you know, over the top being like, I know, oh, my goodness, I need to get back to that gorgeous, more plump body. That more zaftig gorgeous, glorious body of mine. I hope I get back there. And they'll be like, oh, oh, I don't understand. And obviously, all of these depend on who? Who is saying it, whether you've got the time to give the folks of even engaging them you do, because you don't have to, you could just be like they or change the subject. Or I would probably have like a nice one line at that I like so if someone says, Have you lost weight, I'd be like, I love being fat. And I hope I don't lose any other way. But I mean, you know, that might not be your experience you might be having, like, other feelings. And so, you know, whatever you're thinking, but I always thinking about this, you know, thinking about this, how cool it is that you're having this, not how cool it's happy that you're having this, this this, this issue of people doing that, but how your brain is reacting to it, your brain is saying, I don't like that. Whereas previously, I know a lot of people and a lot of people still hearing someone say have you lost weight is the most beautiful music to our ears in the past. I know for me, someone's saying have you lost weight? They might as well be saying, Vinnie, I think you're the best living human on the planet. I think that you are gorgeous, sexy, attractive, successful. All of the wonderful characteristics that a human can have, you're clearly hard working. And I think that maybe you should probably be a millionaire, because the amount of hard work that you've put into becoming thin. You are basically a God walking among humans, because you have a smaller body. But that's why I feel like yes, I have lost way. Oh, and I stop. Hi, now I am gorgeous. You know, even though you're probably like, I haven't lost enough way and you know that the weight is going to come back. But not having that reaction. Like if someone said to me, have you lost weight? I would be like, Whoa. I wonder if my initial reaction I wonder if my brain would go to oh, people think you're thinner. Oh, that means that they think you're more attractive. If my like, you know, that anti fat stuff that that likes to look around or jump in and be like, yes, match, I'm sayin, you know when? And then my rational pro fat brain will be like, ah, hang on a minute. What do you don't like that? What are you talking about? And I'm sure probably everyone has some type of mixture of that. And well, depending on where they're at, in fact, liberation, but probably not having that positive feeling from mentions of weight loss, if you are someone living in a bigger body is is probably quite normal and regular. Right and and seeing that shift from I don't want this is really cool to see. So yeah, so with these things, just a reminder, right now, you're probably relaxed, right? Listening to my sultry tones. And you're probably like, yeah, man, next time someone says that I'm gonna be like, kapow. Take this bitch. You know, here's my really sassy response. And then in the moment, as your heart is beating fast and your breathing, breathing quickens because of that. And your brain is like, Oh, my God is happening. And your brain is like, you better start running or whatever, you probably are not going to be able to access that, you know, peak sassiness or, or peak perfection of a response. You probably just might mumble out something like, Thanks, you know, because our brains are kind of not as helpful in stressful situations. And that's why you know, sometimes I do like asking questions of like, what do you mean by that? I don't understand, so that I can kind of get myself together. But if you just need to tell someone to fuck often, you have my permission. Okay. Okay, next question. This is a short one tips for fat allyship what's helpful and what's not? Okay, so cool. Love it that you asked this question. I don't know if it's a straight size person asked this question. But love, love Ed. I'm gonna read a little quote from nylon.com, which is an article that says beauty. Oh, no, it's not beauty. That's a section. What is the role of an ally to the fat community? Okay, quote, not everyone is on board with the topic of thin allies. The fat community has been burned many times by those who claim to support but rather take up space and erase voices particular those of black women from the conversation seeing this happen across identities. Deshaun Harrison, who we all know is the writer of belly of the beast, and also an editor at where your voice mag soon to be author of Belly of the Beast not soon anymore, says they, quote don't actually believe in ally ship. In my experience, these people are less committed to marginalized People's Liberation and more committed to performing a sense of camaraderie to the marginalized group. But for their own personal gain, Harrison explains. In a perfect world, Harrison would define a thin ally as someone who is quote, really understanding of understanding and interrogating how fatness interacts with anti blackness, a topic that requires extensive research that phobia itself is driven from racism dating far back to the days of slavery, when the black body was ridiculed yet over sexualized and closed corners by powerful white men. Quote, The reason why we look at bodies the way we do is because racism anti fatness and ableism, Harrison abs, we need to eradicate those things because the issue with your body are predicated on having issues with being black being discovered disfigured, being fat or being disabled. I think that that's really interesting to think about is the Shan saying that, in their experience, people are less committed to marginalized People's Liberation and more committed to performing a sense of camaraderie to the marginalized group for their own personal gain. And I really like to think about that, because that's so sticky, isn't it? Or it's so sticky, and you're like, Oh, look at me, I'm such a great person, because I donated to this person, this charity or whatever. Maybe I should tweet about it. Maybe I should let everyone know. I am a great 30. It's really hard not to be performative. And not to get a sense of self esteem from being like, I'm so fucking radical and amazing. I'm such a good person. But I wonder, I wonder, I wonder, I wonder if this is such an interesting concept to think about, like motivations for wanting to be an ally to people who have marginalized identities that you don't share? Is that self serving nature that we all have? Is that something that's that's inevitable? Because I think, you know, we do this work, because we think it's right. Right. And we think we, I don't know about you, but I think it's right. And also, I want to see a world where there's more equity. And is that because of selfish reasons? I don't know, probably at some part and probably not in some part. And probably, I do want to be seen as a good person. You know, like how when someone who is racist, who, you know, when someone says you're racing, they're like, not ruthless. And they will, like, run themselves in circles to claim that they're not racist, because really what they're trying to say is, I'm not a bad person. Because we want people to think that we're good people, you know, anyways, this is all side tangent of like, how do we find ally? But it's, I think it's important to think about when you're being an ally to anyone of, you know,

Speaker 1 19:38

is this is this actually helpful? Or is it not? And I don't have the answers for all of these these these questions. Because, you know, fat people are not a monolith. And some things that could be helpful for me might not be helpful for other people and also to recognize that I am a white, medium fat person. Who is not physically disabled? And so I have this privilege. And so some things I'm like, that's fine. Don't worry about MMA, you know, someone else who doesn't have the same privilege I have will be like, Oh, that's the worst fucking thing that ever you can do. So, but anyway, saying all that blah, blah bluh bluh. Here are some ideas for you. I did a whole episode on this, what was it, it was episode, and finding it for you 84. My goodness. And we want you for number on one, Psalm 60 something. So 84 How to be a fat ally. And there's 33 practical ways to be a fat ally in this installment I said, in the show notes there, but here are some of those 33. So if you invite us somewhere, make sure it's accessible. So if we're going for lunch, dinner, whatever, no booths and chairs without arms, not a million flights of stairs, things like that. And this is getting easier and easier. Because lots of places are thinking about these things. I went to a game a game place, could not believe it. Love it with my two friends and a new friend of us. That was one straight size person. So straight size person and his his husband is fat. I'm fat. And then the new friend is fat, straight size person. He made the booking, he made the booking. And he said we need a this this larger table. And actually the company had a a thing on their booking thing saying what accessibility needs do you have? I've never seen that before. I literally was shitting my pants with excitement hearing about this when he said when I was like, Oh, we've got a big table here with these chairs and this other group to have a smaller table. That's kind of funny. And then you said, oh, yeah, you know, they had that when we were booking and I was like, oh, oh my oh, this is amazing. And I was just like, hey, straight ally, thinking about it. And he's got a fat husband. Right? So he's, he's in it. And he knows. And he had they had been to that place before. And it was a real tight squeeze, because they had a booth. So thinking about those types of things of is it accessible? I want to see my friend is it just tiny little barstools booths, which don't have a table that moves booths might be okay, if the tables moved, a lot of times, they're bolted down tiny little chairs, you know, like fashion chairs, which are like, you know, have the capacity to hold up a pee or something, you know. And so, you know, let's say if I go out with some intimate friend of the show, so I'm in an she's doing the same type of work, but she is string sized. And she will always say you pick the chair that you want to sit in? How is this for you, she will look at the images of the restaurant before we go. And she'll always check in with me. And I'm just like, fucking love you summer. Amazing. So, yeah, that's it you can do. Or you can just say to your fat, your fat friend is this place, okay for you. And, you know, in case you don't know what, what that might look like. Also, when you're with us try and think about our experiences. So for example, like being cognizant of how fat folks can feel in a group activity. Say if you go on a hike, and you're enjoying the hike, and you know it, depending on the fat person and your relationship with them, they might not want to say anything, they might be, you know, being like, I need a break, but I'm gonna say anything because I don't want to be the fat person who doesn't need a break. And then you know, the thing people are like, oh, I need a break. But, you know, the fan person is not even asking for a break. So we don't we shouldn't have a break. Because you know, we should be further than the fat person. You know, everyone's probably like, Oh, I'm fucking tired. And you saying, Hey, everyone, let's have a break. Amazing. Love it. And staying with the person who's at the back, whoever it is, right? Just last weekend, I went to a meetup group, queer Irish Meetup group here in Vancouver. So funny, went to a coffee shop and my with my neighbor. He was there. And he was at a meetup group two, and it was all men with huge beards. And I said, What are you doing here? Are you here for the big beard Meetup group? And he's like, it's funny. You should say that. Oh, it's actually the radical pixies Meetup group. I don't know what that was, but, and then I said, Well, I'm here for the fucking radical queer Pixies. And I said, I'm here for the Irish queer Meetup group. And he says, Oh, you're the leprechauns. They were the Pixies. It's kind of funny. Anyway, you might be like, That's not fucking funny. What are you talking about? Anyway, so registered for this, this this new group and then then we're gonna go for a walk. I live where I am is at the top of the hill. So we're walking down that down this big hill. And people were practically in my A perception running down this hill, and I'm right at the back. And I'm literally shouting slow down. Can we slow down, please? And no one turned around to look. And I was like, blimey, like, we go so fast. And people like, Oh, this is not fast. And I am a fast walker, right? I've got, you know, long sexy legs, I walk fast. walking fast is not a trait, which is something to be proud of. I'd be you know, just to say that, even if I was a slow walker, but they will go in Mad fast. I happen to look at my clock and I was like, Oh, shit, I need to go call my mum. So I was like, Okay, I'll go bye, see you later, I'm calm. I'm gonna go home call my mom sat back up this hill. But I didn't know we were gonna go for a walk. Because, you know, I went with an Irish friend. And so I didn't know what was happening. And if I might have been more nervous, if I had known that we were going for a walk, I thought we will just go in for a coffee. But you know, something like that? Oh, a walk? How can that not be accessible? If I didn't have to call my mom, I think I probably would have just stopped and walked away. Because I was like, they are not thinking about intersectionality they're not thinking about fat people. And then I and then they were like, Oh, we do in the coffee shop. They were like, We do lots of sports together. And I was I was like, Oh, I mean, I like sports, right? But is it gonna be? I don't know if I can trust them. Because they, there was one other fat person. But I don't know if they are trustworthy, thin people. Because I don't know. If they're into dieting, I don't know, if they're doing sports because they're into being thin. Or if they're doing sports, like, how I would do sports for fun. You know? I mean, there's no, there's no reason to, you know, I mean, if you want to engage in sports, because you want to engage in health promoting activity, that's fine, too. But you know, when you are with someone, you know that, that they're engaging in movement in a really unhealthy way. I've had friends like that, like one friend, she would always be like, let's not sit down when we get our coffee, let's go for a walk. And she'd always want to walk for hours. Literally, she would spend a whole day walking. And I was like, Yeah, this is not I'm not feeling this. Anyway. So just think about the fact is, I'm not saying that all fat people are slow. You know, the fat fat people can be at the front of the pack, but just thinking about everyone in any type of activity. And it doesn't have to be a physical activity. But you know, just thinking about how other people might experience that activity. Next, don't use the Oh, words just don't. That sucks. If anyone talks shit about fat people shut them down. You have way more privilege in your body size. If you're straight size than a fat person to talk about this stuff and other straight size people will listen to you more likely than they would. You know, they more likely would poopoo a fat person be like, Oh man, it's because you're fat. You're saying that but if you say hey, that is not okay. That would be amazing. And you know, fat people don't have to present for you to say, Hey, that's not okay. And when you're doing that, do not pull out good, fatty tropes, which is oh, hey, you know, fat people kind of help being fat, fat people that they're trying to lose weight, or even ones that can sound like they're helpful. Hey, fat people are healthy too, you know? Again, that, but hey, fat people are healthy too. Well, what if fat people aren't healthy? Because there are many fat people who are not healthy. Same way. There's many strokes, those people are not healthy. Does that mean that those fat people are not due respect and belonging? What if a fat person likes being fat? Does What about them. So try and avoid the the good, Fatty, bad fatty troves of our fat people that exercise and fat people when and I know it's about you know, you wanting to educate other people, but basically what we're trying to say to people who are anti fat is fat people deserve respect. Fat people deserve to be alive. No matter what type of fat person they are, even if they're like a mean fat person, you know, and this is, you know, like the same is a lot of times with liberal people. The way that they talk about fatness is is really unhelpful. So, for example, like if you think about Donald Trump, and the thing that people go to, is his looks he's fat. Oh, Oh isn't the worst thing ever. Oh my God, he's a fat person and he's a president. How can a president be fat? Oh, it's terrible. Hang on a minute.

Speaker 1 30:09

Is this his fatness? Make him a bad? No, he's absolutely dogshit personality makes him a bad person, not the his body size. That's got nothing to do with anything. So anyway, so let's not engage in that type of stuff at work. Talk about including size discrimination and diversity training. Get me in to do size, discrimination stuff in diversity, training, shutdown diet talk. If you have a uniforms as for uniform sizes to be expanded, that it's not acceptable to just ask women to wear men's uniforms. When when an F wellness initiatives roll out, contact the organizers and tell them how this is super harmful. You know, well mission is initiatives like let's, let's walk walk a marathon and let's lose way and shit. Don't just ignore fat comments and jokes report that shit to HR shut it down, if possible, I say if possible, because it might be your boss. And so you might not be like, you know, we might be the CEO is like, hey, that'd be well served and you're fired. But he could report it to HR. Remove magazines that have weight loss stories from the break rooms asks for larger chairs if there is no lack of chairs or if the chairs are bolted down to the floor is a break room say for fat people to eat lunch? Are there signs up about Weight Watchers meetings or things about how to eat healthy. Make sure that the workplace isn't overcrowded so that fat people can get around without having to negotiate obstacles, pay fat people Oh, you know what, how you can pay fat people go to my Kofi and donate to me, I'm a fat person. So what's not helpful talking about your your bad body image and seeking counsel from a fat person unless you are paying them? A lot of fat people will say, You know what, my thinner friend who is ever so slightly chubby or not even chubby? keeps keeps talking to me about how awful they look and how disgusting they are. And, and I'm like, Hello, do you can you not see who you're talking to about this? And, and a lot of times straight sides, people do this because the fat person is safe. The fat person is there to counsel them and tell them no, you're not fat and disgusting. You're not like me, I am the real fat disgusting person, you're beautiful. And you know, straight sides, people a lot of times don't do that same thing to people who they perceive as more attractive to them. So if you find yourself doing that to a fat person, stop it telling us about this new store that is super inclusive. Turns out the store is non inclusive, and it only goes to size 3x. So critical thinking of a lot of times people were like, Oh my God, have you heard about this thing? Or whatever? And it's like, yeah, I'm in the fat lib world like I know about it? Or have you heard the Old Navy carry plus sizes? And you're like, I've got, I've got a lot to say about that. I know all about it. And so yeah, not getting fat people excited that there might be a new inclusive clothing store. If you don't know what it's like to be in that fat body, not presuming that clothes are gonna fit or that they're super stretchy. Because they're probably not going to fit. Not being radical with your fat activism. So challenging yourself of am I thinking about factor ism and thinking, Oh, it's acceptable to be fat, but only a certain amount of fat. Any more than like, you know, an hourglass figure. That's a bit too fat. But you know, like, a lot of people were like, Yeah, but what about like, those people, which are 600 pounds, they're the bad fat ones I can get behind you because you're acceptably fat. Are you having thoughts like that? If so, work on that stuff. And also not acknowledging your size of privilege regularly. And you just need to be like, Hey, everybody, you know, Hi, friends, by the way, I'm thin and you're not, you can just be like, oh, yeah, so that must be really difficult. And you know, especially someone like me, being a straight size person, I don't have to deal with the same marginalization and discrimination that other people in larger bodies do. Me saying that I'm a white person. So you know how I will say, Hey, I'm a white person, or I'm medium fat person or whatever, you know, I will just bring it up. Because I want it to acknowledge how things are different for me. Right? As in, it's easier for me. And so if you're doing that, it would be amazing. And if you're not, then I'm suspicious. Especially as I was just talking to someone about You know, getting to know straight size people. And presuming this person I was talking to was saying to clients saying, I'm making the presumption that someone who is straight sized didn't have a nice personality. And wasn't that positive? And what could they do to let you know that they're a safe person? And talking about like, what if they had a little bit, you know, badge on them, say in death to diets or something like that, and then all of a sudden, you can go like, Oh, okay, they're a safe person. Where then within reason, right, they might be you know, who knows, but we know that they're probably not going to be like, Hey, have you heard about the cabbage die or whatever? Yeah. So that is the answer to that question. Again. These are These are just ideas and some of them, you know, some people might say, That's not helpful, Vinnie, I am a fat person. I don't agree with you. And that's absolutely valid. Everyone's experiences are different. But you know, what could be really helpful? Just to ask the fat people in your life? What can I do to help? How can I use my privilege? What would be helpful or what wouldn't be helpful, especially if you've got fat people in your life that you love? Okay, the next question is, what would you say to someone who claimed you are promoting the O word? OCE Nishan, T? and P simply when I'm not good at finding a rhyme with trying to find a rhyme for the O word? Increasingly? It's not a good ride. Anyway, what would you say to someone who claimed that you're promoting the O word? So this is a is this is a zinger that the right wing people love to say is you're promoting the a word you're promoting fatness that they say the O word. So let's dissect this phrase like what are they saying? When someone says you're promoting the O word? What are they trying to say? So here are some of my ideas. They're trying to say, you are promoting something that is bad. You are telling people to be unhealthy and encouraging them to die. You want people to be lazy and make excuses and be losers. You are jealous of attractive people and hate them and think everyone should be forced to date and have sex with a fat person. You're telling other people to be fat, and encouraging more fat people to exist. You shouldn't be happy at your sizes. I'm not happy at my size. And that makes me mad. You can be satisfied when I work so hard to be smaller and successfully. You should feel shame. So that's what I hear when I hear that phrase. Yeah, we're moving forward. So let's go through each one of those like, first one, you are promoting something that is bad. Or I don't agree that fatness is bad. If someone says to me you're promoting Oh word, what do you mean? You think that it's bad to be fat? Yes, I don't agree with you that it's bad to be fat. Next one, you're telling people to be unhealthy and encouraging them to die. So I don't think that someone is bad for being unhealthy. Health is a complex topic if someone wants to engage in health promoting behaviors that you think are acceptable, then that's fine by me and none of my business. If someone wants to engage in health promoting behaviors that you don't think are acceptable, then that's fine by me none of my business so you know if you're like well, I need fat people need to see fat people you know going on a run and eating a salad what happens when fat people go on a run any and sad? Oh, you're just faking it you never go on a run and eat a salad you fucking faking liar. So, but what if someone wants to engage in health promoting behaviors that you don't think are acceptable, like, I don't know, going to the doctor or, or talking to a therapist or not using guns, things like that. Again, that's none of my business. And it's fine by me. If someone isn't interested in pursuing health, whatever that means. That's fine by me and is knowing my business. I know other people's health is none of my business. But you person who is saying you're promoting should be should be. You don't seem to have that same understanding that other people's health is not your business. Do Healthy People not deserve to be alive or be visible? I think fat people deserve to be ill live and be visible. So I'm promoting unhealthy ill health. My your health has got nothing to do with me. It's not my business.

Speaker 1 40:12

Don't see how that one works. Next one, you want people to be lazy and make excuses and be losers. But think about lazy, I do think that people should work less and rest more, or people because laziness is white supremacy, puritanical morality, capitalism, all rolled up into one, we work too hard. And we need to rest more, I think. But again, if you think that you should work 27 million hours a day, or work zero hours a day. Guess what, Nana My bed is nice. And I don't get to say that you shouldn't do this or that. Right? Being fat doesn't make someone lazy. Laziness is a myth is a really awesome book. Laziness is a myth. You should check it out. fatness doesn't make people lose us in tolerance and judgment. make someone a loser in my eyes. So you want people to be lazy and make excuses. So a lot of people a lot of times when I hear this phrase, it's, it's like you want to support people, quote, giving up a lot of fat liberation is really, really hard work. And really what we're doing is tremendously difficult. It's a tremendously difficult act for an individual to do. And I think people have to work really, really hard to unlearn anti fat bias. So personally, I don't think that people are giving up. It's the opposite. But I'm not. On the other hand, you know, if people don't work hard at this stuff, and they just casually jump into it, whatever. I don't care about my either, you know, it's got nothing to do with me. Next one, you are jealous of attractive people, I would hate them. I think everyone should be forced to to date and have sex with a fat person. You're right. I am jealous of the people of the privilege that thinner people have. However, I know it's a systemic issue. Smaller bodied people are also hurt due to anti fatness. I don't however, agree that only smaller body people are attractive. Although society as a whole doesn't align with my beliefs. I think fat bodies are countercultural cool, on our on our made of waves and honey, and I don't think fat phobes should be having sex with fat people, we are way too special for you to see our spirits. So I am when I say I'm jealous of their privilege, I'm not really jealous of their privilege. I'm frustrated that society is so binary. And it's thinking about what is an acceptable body? So yeah, I'm gonna say it's jealousy is more kind of frustration. Because I think jealousy would mean that I would want to have a smaller body. And, and, you know, I don't, I don't care if I have a smaller body or a bigger body. I like having a bigger body. But if someone if I woke up in a new life, and I had a smaller body, I wouldn't be like curse you smaller body. So it's not the body, it's the systemic issues that I have a problem with. Next, you're telling other people to be fat and encouraging more fat people to exist. So more fat people existing is not a problem. I would never tell anyone what they should do with their body. And so I'm not telling people to be fat, or thin, or anything. Fat people exist, they always have and they always will do. shaming them will not make them go away. Shame doesn't align with my personal values. And so I don't want to shame people for their body size, especially because I don't think that there's anything shameful about being fat. I'm simply trying to make the world a place where fat people are not excluded and shamed at every junction. I want fat people to be treated with dignity and equality. Like I think about that, you know, what is this this phrase? Like, what is this? It's a lot of judgment, right? It's a lot of shaming. It's a lot of moralizing. It's a lot of I know better, you're doing something bad. And if someone did actually say this like to my face, and they were they were curious, you know, versus just being a troll. I would say I'd I'd be really curious about you know, what does how does that make you feel to say that fat people shouldn't be allowed to exist What are your values as a human? And I think most people will say, you know, like, my values are things like kindness and empathy and lala land and then like going back like, does that align with your values? Some people might be like, I don't know what my values are. But you know what, you know, what is it important to you to be as a human? Because I think underneath, I think, I don't know, maybe I'm being too generous in spirit to these people. But I think underneath that, if they really thought about it, a lot of people would say, actually, you know, what, I think we should just, I should just stop being addictive fat people, because actually, what it is, is that I'm angry about something else. And fat people are an easy target for me. And it makes me feel good and makes me feel superior, because I don't have a fat body. Because my self esteem has been damaged in other ways. That's really, that's what I really think is going on, right. But you know, some people maybe are just dickheads. Okay, next, you shouldn't be happy at your sizes, I'm not happy at my size. And that makes me mad, you can be satisfied when I work so hard to be smaller and successfully. So to that, I would say I am so sorry, that anti fat bias has tricked you into thinking that having a smaller body is the only route to potty satisfaction, happiness, connection, and love. It's not true. If pursuing thinness and buying into beauty ideals works for you. Great. If it doesn't, there is another way. And finally, from that phrase, you're promoting the Oh word. You should feel shame. And I don't as weight is not a behavior. And even if it was my body size is not wrong. It's just a normal way to have a body also is existing promoting, is existing in the world, promoting, you know, like, I have I have dyed hair right blonde hair. Am I promoting getting your hair bleached? By being on the internet with blonde hair or walking around the streets? with blonde hair? I don't think so. But I'm not saying Hey, everyone, blonde hair. It's terrible. You know, and you know, where the fat stuff? I am talking about fat stuff. So maybe if I was talking about blond hair, maybe it is promoting? Here's the thing, what it boils down to? Are you promoting the O word? In a nutshell? Yeah. And what? And what? Really? Yeah, and what? And we go back to all of those things and what what what, I think that's bad. Why? Because fat people are bad. I don't believe that we're fat people are unhealthy. I don't think that that's a relevant tool to judge people by I think that people who are fat and unhealthy, or straight size and unhealthy also deserve dignity and respect. Do you not agree? No, I think we should shame fat people to get them to lose weight. Well, I don't think that that works. And it's not aligned with my values. Or it's aligned with mine. Well, unfortunately, it doesn't sound like we're, we're a match to be friends. So this conversation is over. But yeah, you know, like, there's some talking points, but thing is like, I would just say yeah, I am and what

Unknown Speaker 48:33

and what they will hear from Yeah, I am and what is that? I'm like, Hey, I think all fat people should die immediately. And in fact, we're going to recruit more fat people do you know what it's like? It's like the fat agenda.

Speaker 1 48:48

The fat agenda. We have this fat agenda that we're gonna we're gonna get everyone into the fat club house and, and force feed them put put pipes down their throats and, and force feed them and, and, and then people are like, please, I just want to exercise and we're like, Shut up. Do not move from that couch. You better be watching Jerry Springer. And never letting them leave and they're like, I just want to be seen and we're like you're never be seen again. Not because you're you've met the fat agenda. We're just gonna make your fat like that absolutely happens. Come to my house, you'll experience a fat agenda

Speaker 1 49:35

basically, you know, fat liberation is Hey, fat liberation is is hey, we think that fat people should have a quality and be straight treated with dignity and respect, regardless of why they're fat regardless if they're healthy or not. Regardless if they behave in a way that you deem acceptable. It doesn't matter All right. So yeah, so yeah, I'm promoting the fat agenda. I need to get that on a t shirt or something promote join me for the fat agenda rolling the fat agenda is gonna get you or some sort of like fat agenda thing on my show. Maybe I should make that promoting the fat agenda. I don't know Anyway, whatever. Okay, so last question is I am non binary and just had a Berber. I'm struggling with body image and how weight gain happens in feminine places like the chest and hips. I'd like to see more images of androgynous looking people in fat bodies to help rewire my brain. I'm struggling with the quote, ideal of androgyny being so thin, but when I've looked for other beautifully androgynous body types in the past, I've only found thin bodies. I was hoping you might have some accounts, you could suggest that to follow. Yes, you know, so this is a problem in the queer community in the non binary community is, of course every community is is experiencing anti fat bias because, you know, we all have brains, right? And when we soak up the anti fat bias, sometimes we will try to stay close to, to, to privilege, our proximity to white supremacy as much as possible to show our worthiness. So people might say, you know, like, we know with fat, I'm fat, but I'm healthy and fat, but I'm fat in the right ways. You know, or, you know, I'm queer, but I'm thin and queer, but I you know, I don't I don't I don't engage in on that city. Pronouns stuff. That's a bit much. So we do see a lot we do see a lot of that. And so that is a big fat phobia is a big issue in the queer community, unfortunately. And so visibility of androgynous or Butch trans bodies is lacking. However, I've got a list of 10 for you. I'm going to make a an Instagram post about it. And so the links for all of these Instagram bios are going to be in the show notes. Scroll up what episode 1641 First of all, a.com forward slash 164 But I'm gonna read them out to you in case you're like, I don't know. You want to go get them right now and you're driving like Don't be driving and writing down this Instagram handles. But okay, so Jordan Underwood. Instagram is Jordan. No jaw jaw da Jor da l l e n. Hall H A double L. Caleb Luna? Instagram is Dr. Cheer breaker. Love it. Comfy fat travels J A pretty do so comfy fat travels. CO M F why fat travels on the Instagrams. Oh, just mentioned them today to Sean L. Harrison. And the Sean's Instagram is d A S H AUNLH. Brian Guffey and you can find Brian and black queer I R O H Hart. Hart is under trans yoga teacher. Net D Frank. You can find net to Frank under trans fats 3x e d u the non binary Jennifer Coolidge trans dot surreal illness. Matteo Valentino Diaz and you can find Matteo under happy fat trans man. So they they get out. They go. Yeah, so seek it out. And here's the thing, like I was talking to my therapist about this and my therapist is trans too. And I'm trans non binary therapist. So it's just having a nice good face. Rob. Don't you just love a face Rob? Talking about that, like fat fat distributing in places that are seen as more feminine. And so for fat people it can be more difficult to embody true brands nervous as how it feels good for them or androgyny or masculinity because the fat distribution distribution is in more, quote feminine places. Well, you can take low dose hormones, too, to move that fat around, is what my therapist told me. And so moving away from your hips, and your chest, to your ballet, oh, giving you a nice little belly, or big belly? Isn't it not so fucking amazing. So that could be an option. We talked about this before? Like, is it? Is it fat phobia? Or is it dysmorphia body dysmorphia? And I don't know, you know, I don't know, I've thought about this. And I don't know, you know, but the thing is, body modification, whatever you choose to do to your body, whatever it is, if that feels aligned with you, and you feel like it's gonna make you happier, and, you know, doesn't make you a bad person for choosing it, even if it does come from a place of fat phobia, anti fatness, you know, whatever. Because to live in this world, as a fat person, as a trans person, as a person of color. And indigenous person, a disabled person, etc. can be really fucking difficult. And so if there is something that you can do that makes it easier for you to survive in this world, then you don't have to answer to anyone, you know. And that goes to for people who engage in weight loss surgery, or diets. Like, I get it. It's hard. So, if at that time that is working for you, and you know, I'm not saying I'm not comparing, like weight loss surgery with, you know, top surgery or whatever, but, you know, totally, totally different things. But if you're still if you're not able to work out, like, is it fat phobia? Or is it like trans stuff? You know, I'd say don't don't stress too much, because so much stuff is intertwined, that we might not ever be able to pick it apart. But we can think about it a little thinking our gorgeous little noggins, you know? So that is the end of our questions today. Thank you for hanging out with me, if you enjoyed the show, and you appreciate what I do go to Kofi. Funny, you can find that in the show notes, links to those Instagram accounts are in the show notes. And what else do I want to tell you? You're amazing, oh, I got this book, needy by Maura glatzel. And she sent me because I won. I won. I had bought her book and then I went to the launch and and then at the launch, I want a copy of a book. Anyway, she signed a book and she also sent me some other things and the book is a book. It's called needy. She was actually somewhere in in his podcast, that's where I found out about her and she sent me some like cool stickers like Team needy and your needs matter. And I love needy people and some other things but anyway, I love this idea of being needy like because I've struggled with this, you know, like, just be chill, you know, like, especially because I'm dating. Just be chill, you know, someone's like, Oh, can I you know, can I do wanna hang out you want to come around? You know do is it okay if I like you know, smoke and you know, oh, yeah, I have no knees. Oh, yeah, absolutely. You don't want to text me for five weeks? Good. Obviously I don't accept that but a judge to to really answer chill. I have no needs. Whatever you on what do you on? Yeah, it's very hard to be needy, isn't it? The thing is, I do love needy people.

Speaker 1 59:25

And I love helping people out and I think that's why I get on with my neighbors so much is I asked them like what can what can I do to help and and Can I can I do this thing to help you out? Like, you know, look after the dogs or, you know, last week I helped boost my neighbor's car twice. And you know what is I say to them, it it boosts my self esteem if you have needs and I can help you. So you're doing me a favor because then I can say on my podcast. I am such a good night. A neighbor, I boosted their car to wines. I wasn't planning on saying that. But anyway, it makes me feel good. And it makes other people feel good to meet my needs, right? And so I'm thinking about asking my neighbors to come around and help me with my rug, because it needs straightening out. I've got this really big rug, and it's really thin. And it like kind of, is not straight. But it's so big. I can't you know, I can't stretch. And so I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna ask them to come around, give it a Yank with me. And I bet yeah, they will have really appreciate that I have the vulnerability to ask for something, ask for help. And they helped me and they can go back to their apartment and be like, Look at us. It'll help us. We're helping our neighbors. We're improving communication and our relationship. Yeah, not that. I mean. Like, I'm such a great person I'm just helping people out with but I was giving them my knees telling them I need but I mean, it is it is great. Then I think about you know, when, when someone comes around your house, and imagine if you had someone around your house, and they were cold, and they were hungry, and they were thirsty, but they didn't want to say anything, because they didn't want to be needy. You would be like, Oh, my goodness, tell me. Are you thirsty? Are you hungry? Can I what you want enough? Can I What can I get? Do you need us some slippers? Do you want to do you want to cuddle? No, because it feels good to do that stuff for other people. Right? So I have to keep keep reminding myself, because I feel like and I talked to my neighbors about this. We both talk about it like being like, Oh, we feel like such a nuisance. We feel like a piece of shit like, Oh, we're taking advantage of people. And actually both my neighbors that I help out. They both say that like, Oh, we don't want to take advantage and then I'm feeling the same like because it's an equal balance of me getting things from them and vice versa of like, not wanting to be a burden. And I think that we should we should stop that silliness. Just be needy, be needy as Mother Father. Because if you are I love you for it. I love you for it. All right, well, you go off be needy, be lazy, be fat, fabulous. You just go out and be you, whoever you are. And we'll see you in the next podcast episode see Ilona Bali.

Episode 163 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the best value podcast episode 163 hustled culture versus anti fat culture. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 0:23

Hello, welcome to this episode. So glad you're here. I'm excited to talk about what we're going to talk about today. Before we do just a little update on kofi. Kofi is a place that you can donate. If you'd like the podcast, we have a goal of 680 Donal hairs a month so that I break even on producing the podcast. So it cost me about $170 a month, at least per I mean, per episode to create the podcast and that's not factoring my time or labor. And with around four shows a month, that's an average of 680. So we're where we're at right now is we I've been doing this for a couple of months now asking for Kofi donations. Where we're at today is a monthly subscription value of $210. And that's one offs of one off donations of 50 and subscriptions of 160. So that's where the where we want to go is the subscriptions because then that's a recurring small donation and you can donate as little as five US dollars and for that you will get the size diversity resource guide and my undying love my fatty love. So if you are interested in donating, go to the link in the show notes if you appreciate this free content that I provide you or if you just like me, or just like fat stuff, and go get there that says Meza. Okay, so it's almost a year ago now I did an episode called food, Faith MLMs. And cults, which was a was a humdinger of an episode got some some pretty interesting characters in that episode. Like when shambling who was the eat your way into heaven, MLM diet? Cult. Person, oh, my goodness, and all sorts of other people. And so I've been really interested into the in the intersection of other not so great systems and cultures and ideologies and how they intersect with diet culture, and anti fatness and, and so I've been thinking about, I've been thinking about a lot about online business stuff. So I've done personally, a lot of online business training, and spent a lot of money on understanding how to run an online business. And I fitted into that slot of the online business world so well. And now that I've taken a step back for the last two years, I'm like okay, that was a lot of toxic stuff in there and helpful stuff. And a lot of stuff that is really similar to diet culture to anti fat rhetoric, anti fat culture. I'm gonna I'm just making up this term anti fat culture. I'm sure someone has said it before. But I liked that I liked the focusing on anti fat culture versus diet culture, because diet culture, I was watching the show, there was a bunch of fat activists on the show this like talk show, it was great. And the host kept saying toxic diet culture. And I was thinking, I bet the audience many in the audience will hear when they say toxic diet culture or even diet culture. I bet they will hear extreme dieting culture, and not any dieting. And I mean, I feel like if people want to diet Go ahead, it's your body you do what you want, right? But really what what is it we were trying to say with diet culture, we were trying to say you know, anti diet culture. What we're trying to say is, we do not support anti fatness which is manifested in diet culture with the continued pressure and belief that thinness should be obtained and is easily obtained? And won't the fat people just get their shit together and get thin? And, and so I feel like we should step away from saying diet culture and be more explicit with our terms of anti fat culture, because then people are not going to get confused of, well, you know, I'm just I'm dieting to dieting for health reasons. Therefore, it's not based in systemic anti fatness, because I'm not doing anything. You know, I'm not doing a juice cleanse, like my bum or something, you know, because that's silly. That's toxic diet culture. I'm just doing it because, you know, whatever. And again, if someone chooses to diet or pursue any type of weight loss, that's, you know, whatever, that's them, you know, but it's this amorphous concept, that fatness is immoral, unhealthy, bad, that we want to detangle, right. I sound like a little sound like a guinea pig. When I do that. Then I screwed up guinea pig that's crying. Anyway, so I take inspiration from lots of different places, all like everyone getting inspired by different things. And so what inspired this podcast episode was a tweet thread from Amy Porto, Dr. Amy Porto, on the Twitter. And Amy has made some great points. Let me see who Amy is. What is Amy DOCTOROFF? I'd love to know Amy Porto says disrupting the mainstream mainstream diet health and fitness market with real science and data humor and a bit of common sense. Yes, Amy Porto I love it. Okay, so what Dr. Amy Porter have set his was said said was the parallels between the messaging of diet culture and hustle culture, a thread. So this is from December 15 2020. Do and Dr. Amy says both diet culture and hustle culture emphasize you aren't enough until you reach the quote goal. And then only then will you be happy. Both diet culture and hustle culture emphasize you aren't working hard enough. If you don't reach the goal. You just need to restrict more, move more and work more. Both diet culture and hustle culture emphasize you quote failed because you didn't follow the rules correctly or do it right. The problem is you both diet, culture and hustle culture emphasize you can't trust your body, or your instincts or need the secrets discovered by self proclaimed expert. Both diet culture and hustle culture normalize and celebrate disordered eating disordered habits. Both diet culture and hustle culture emphasize scheduling every minute to be productive, thus distracting you from sitting with uncomfortable emotions, having difficult conversations and setting boundaries because you are so busy creating content and counting ailments. Neither the size of your pants nor the size of your bank account determines your value as a person you are worthy today, just as you are. Thank you, Dr. Amy Bordeaux. I'll link that to that thread in the show notes. Should you want it show notes facebook.com forward slash 163. So I always be I've been I've been I've been ruminating on this ruminating the wrong word, thinking about it. And I think we can go further. I think that there are even more and I think you know, on Twitter, you've got a little box to say this. And an Amy was probably just like, Oh, here's some ideas and not not like oh, let's make an hour long podcast episodes. So anyway, I want you to expand on what Amy was saying. And I'm sure Amy's got lots of expansions that that's there as well. But I was thinking about when I was thinking about this, I was really thinking about white supremacy culture. White supremacy culture is something that I am. It's so annoying to be in a friendship with me because I'm always like, oh, yeah, I'm thinking about oh, it's white supremacy culture, or I'm like, Look at this belief. Oh, yeah, it's probably me me buying into white supremacy. I'm always just like white supremacy. Gotcha. Well. It sounds like everything comes down to it like Oh, my goodness, my internalized white supremacist ideals that I'm trying to unlearn. Anyway. So Timo Oaken from Dr. Works, links in the show notes. has, has, has written about this and Um, their work is deeply tied to this. And you can just if you do want to do a quick Google, just Google white supremacy, culture dot info, and you'll find information, I've also got kind of like a cheat sheet that is available that Tamar has made, which goes over the characteristics. And so this is in relation to

Speaker 1 10:25

work culture. But it manifests in all different types of cultures. And a really quick kind of, I'm going to go over them, and then I'm going to come back to it later. White supremacy culture is perfectionism, sense of urgency, defensiveness, quality, quantity over quality. Only one right way. paternalism, either or Thinking, Power hoarding, fear of open conflict. individualism, I'm the only one progresses bigger, more objectivity, right to comfort and worship of the written word. So that is what white supremacy culture is, I want to go in a little bit more. But I noticed that a lot of diet culture, anti fat culture, hustle culture, millionaire, seeking culture is really deeply intertwined with white supremacist culture, right? They're all kind of supporting each other, and how we don't even realize it right? You know, it's so it's so you can be so innocent of like, oh, I, you know, I have an online business me, and I want to be successful. And I don't know how to run an online business. So I'm gonna learn from people who've done it before. What they know, is what is right, and I am a hard worker, I'm gonna do it. And if I don't succeed, it's my fault. Or the fault of people who are not succeeding, they're not working as hard. And now taking a step back on my Nelida has a lot of toxic shit. And what really did it for me, was recognizing in a lot of the online business world communities, they have really invested in in anti fatness and never talk about privilege. They never talk about how, Oh, hey, I may I'm a middle class, sis, het white man who's nondisabled living in America. And I, my parents have wealth, and I live in their basement. And so that is why I'm successful. Because I have access to resources, and proximity to privilege. People don't say that, because they want to sell this formula to success. And this is same with diet culture to have an anti fat culture of, I'm thin because of my hard work, not because of my proximity to privilege, the fact that I'm just a naturally thin person, do what I say and you will also become thin. So let's break these down. Let's break these down into specific categories. I'm also going to have this as a post on the Instagrams. So if you'd like this, and you want to refer to this because I know sometimes referring listening to me talk and not being able to see I've put this into like a a grid type of thing. Not being able to see what I'm referring to it sometimes can be I like I like looking at things, not everyone's like that, but that might be helpful. So check out the Instagram as we go through this. Okay, so I'm going to be talking about the characteristic and then how anti fat culture and then how hustle culture both have that same characteristic. Okay, so the first one is binary thinking, which if you remember, that was a white supremacy culture, which was either or thinking so binary, we're thinking here, good or bad. And when you think about anti fat culture, like fatness is bad. thinness is good. Fat is unhealthy, thin is healthy. Some food is good, and some food is bad. If you eat less and exercise more, you will have a thinner body and how that relates to hustle culture. I've realized I've not even defined hustle culture. I just I'm just presuming you know what it is, but you might not. So let me just I'm just going to Google hustle culture. So I'm gonna read a definition for you. What is half our current? Hustle culture emphasizes a common modern workplace describes a common modern workplace environment that emphasizes hard work, and long hours as the key to success it becomes increasingly popular recently with the companies encouraging their employees to put extra effort and work hours for better results. Basically, hustle culture is, a lot of it is as well tied with the online business world of if you start a business, or if you have a side hustle, hustle culture is if Work, Work work, you're going to be successful, as long as you work hard as long as you sacrifice. And if you are not successful, it's because you didn't work hard enough, you didn't sacrifice or you don't know the secrets and pay this, this influencer to tell you the secrets. So that's hustle culture. And it can be it can be in any environment really, like we're talking about the workplace. But you know, you could be at the gym, and they can say hustle like, you know, don't listen to what your body is saying that that kind of push yourself beyond what feels good. So the binary thinking and hustle, hustle culture is working hard is good. Those who don't are lazy. If I follow the rules and work hard, I will be rich, those who aren't rich are unintelligent and unwilling to hustle. So that binary thinking if we think about it, before I went on diets, I had this self belief, which was other people fail at diets, because they don't try they give up at the first hurdle. They're not really committed, not like me, I am gonna go hardcore on this, I am gonna do this one diet become thin, and forever be happy. And I know that I can trust myself because I really want this, I really, really want this. And I have self discipline. That was my thinking, and then did the diet and was able to successfully lose weight temporarily. And then obviously was not able to sustain the diet because I have this thing called a pesky thing called a human body. Turns out it needs food. And it needs rest. Weird. And then with hustle culture to being in the online world, it was the same, I had the same belief. And I did not connect it to anti fat stuff, which was, I believe in myself. So I've always I've always had this belief in myself. And so the people who are not successful with their online business, is because they're probably they're probably weak willed. They probably they probably don't want to work as hard as I will, they probably will give up the first hurdle. They don't want it as much as I do. I want it so bad. Therefore, I will do anything to to make it work. And working hard is good, because it's gonna make me successful. So there's no kind of without binary thinking, there's no nuance there, right? It's like I am good. They are bad. I am hardworking, they are lazy. And a plus b equals six C hard working hard equals making money working hard, sacrificing, having the secret knowledge equals success. Not eating and exercising equals success of a thin body. And there's no there's no real critical thinking skills without those beliefs. Okay, next guilt. Guilt is a characteristic of anti Vax culture, not engaging in the pursuit of fitness carries the burden of guilt for those who are bought into anti fat culture. Eating certain quote bad foods or not working out induces guilt. And with hustle culture, taking time off, not getting up early, working late and having quote, no excuses, induces guilt, then that sounds similar as well to like, hardcore working out, which is a part of anti fat culture. Like, if you take time to do things for your body, your natural natural instincts and needs,

Speaker 1 19:05

which is rest, which is not this hardcore gogogo then you will feel guilty because it says something about your character about who you are. So they both have guilt as a characteristic and other characteristic. Do more rest when you're successful. So anti that culture tells us restrict more and be more committed to dieting and fat hate to see the best results. This restriction is temporary until you're thin. Have you felt that you're like I can do the diet because I'm going to temporarily restrict and like you know, I can hold my breath. And then when I'm feeling I can go back to eating like a human being. thing is it doesn't work out like that. You go back to eating like a human being and you put weight on because your body's like Bert, what are you doing? When a diet fails next time you're going to be more invested and more committed to succeeding at any cost. So just do more. Get more creative why not, you know, stick the herbs that we have an edge we have had on one Yoni Yoni pearls, the plugin bags of bags of herbs and hessie and sacks that you put up your badge that apparently might be small. So do more, you know? How's it the badge, surgery, pills, wraps, etc. With the hustle culture, it's hustle harder, sacrifice more, keep your head down, just until you succeed and then you can take a break. And what about the phrase sleep when you're dead? If you are unsure about what hustle culture looks like, go and watch the videos of Gary Vee. Just Google Gary Vee Vee just the letter V. Or you can put v e or come up. His name's Gary Vaynerchuk. The epitome of hustle culture, like can't just watching his videos made me tired. I used to like him. I used to think I was like, yeah, he's telling you how it is. Now I'm like, Oh, he needs a nap. He feels like he's gonna implode at any second because he's just like, go go go, like constantly making videos constantly, like, you know, just Yeah, nonstop. And if you're not like him caught nonstop, you ain't going to be a millionaire billionaire like him. Obviously. That's sarcasm. Next characteristic is to ignore your intuition. So quiet in that voice that says this isn't anti fat culture quite in that voice that says engaging in anti fatness doesn't serve you don't listen to your body screaming for food or rest be committed to colluding with oppressive systems, even if it doesn't feel right. So there's a lot of that with with anti fatness of like. But you know, this isn't really feel good, I don't like it. But I really want to get to my goal of fineness, I really want to be seen as good be seen as attractive be seen as worthy. And if we think about hustle culture, if we think about ignore your intuition, you need to be all in, even if you know it feels extreme or risky. If you have doubts, then that's just your inner saboteur speaking, or you being weak willed, versus these being genuine concerns. So for an example, like ignore your intuition, here's an example like I did this expensive program online program. And before doing it, you apply for the program, and then you have a call with someone, basically, the you have an a call with someone who's a salesperson. And when you fill out the application, they say, don't even bother filling out this application unless you're willing to drop X amount of money. This program was two grand a month for for not for 12 months, don't even bother. If you don't bother booking a call with us an expert exploration call with us, unless you are ready to pull the trigger right there. And then, and I was like, Okay, well, they don't want time wasters. My intuition spoke up and was like, that doesn't sound so good. Like that sounds like pressure sales tactics. And when people are under pressure, they're not able to make the best decisions. The power balance is an equal here, what's going on? Basically, they're telling you, you have to enroll, you can't even gather information, you have to get the information and immediately enroll, that doesn't sound so good. And then the other part of me was like, you know, hustle culture, you know, it's a risk. But you know, I'm the type of person that will succeed at this. Therefore, I need to take the risk because people who take the risks get the rewards. The program was dogshit the program was just the same old stuff, same old stuff that I'd already learned about online business. Luckily, I stopped paying because I was like, This is fucked up. And also they were super anti fat. And I would I messaged the CEO saying, Whoa, this is really inappropriate. And she was just like, Thanks for your comments. We're not gonna do anything. Well, she didn't one of our assistants did so. And then when I was like, you know, doing all the things in the program, I was doing all the things and then I wasn't, you know, a millionaire within three days. I remember having a call with one of the teachers in the group, my said, you know, I'm doing ABCD EFG H I just, you know, doing everything now like, yeah, you are doing everything. I don't know why then you're not, you know, rolling in money and Then the coach was like, I know what it is, you have a mindset issue. You must not want to be successful. So you're sabotaging yourself in some way. Absolute utter dogshit. Like that for me that was the final straw is that did nanner No, no, no, that was happening. You know? Because it's kind of like, well, if we can't take the blame for something, you know, our program not working, we have to put it on you. And if you complain, it makes you a sore loser. You weren't really doing the work. Think about diet culture. You weren't really doing the diet. Yeah. Okay, so engage in damaging behaviors. That's a characteristic. How does that fit in with anti fat diet and anti fat culture? Well, engaging, damaging behaviors, it doesn't matter how get thin and stay thin, who cares? If this is bad for your health, you'll be thin. With hustle culture, it doesn't matter how you get how much or how get rich and stay rich, who cares if this is bad for your mental health, you'll be rich, who cares what you need to do to get there. Okay, the next characteristic is be busy. In anti fat culture. If you have time to rest, you have time to work out. It only takes x minutes to do a workout. Take the stairs, not the elevator. So constantly be thinking about your body and how not to be fat. not pursuing thinness means that you are lazy and laziness is immoral. How that how being busy relates to hustle culture, you mustn't really want it if you watch Netflix or take time off. Other people who are really committed work till midnight and get up at 5am You're lazy, if you don't, if you have time for friends and family, then you have time to work more. So be busy. Again, this is denying, you know basic human functions of we can't just do that, you know, long term, even short term, like if I have one or two social events in a week. I'm like, I'm done. If I have a particularly busy day at work, I'm like, No, I can't I just can't do anything. And whereas before I would have been like Nah, you need to use a ladder thing. I'm still learning Laziness, laziness being a myth, and the roots of laziness, there's a really good book. Laziness. Laziness is a myth. Lazy isn't licenses ally, Devin price, a really cool trans author. Anyway, it's really interesting. Basically, be lazy. Be lazy is good for you. And it's aligned with social justice. Yeah, but with any of those things, you know, you have to be busy, because that's your Atlassian opportunity you're missing out on because you're weak if you want to rest. The thing is, we don't want to rest we do but what I'm saying is we need to rest. It's not like this fluffy kind of, oh, I just, you know, I'm just feeling just wild today. And so I'm going to just you know, sweep. It's no, I am a human and I, if I want to continue to be alive, I need to sleep, eat, rest, have a nap, watch Netflix, you know, Okay, the next is, trust the quote, experts trust the experts. So in anti fat culture, a few people have seen success, and they know how to do it. And so I must follow their advice as they are experts in being thin. There is a secret formula, and I will learn it from the experts.

Speaker 1 28:59

The amount of dietitians and nutritionists and anyone in the wellness space who get into the wellness space to learn how to be thin to learn what the secret is. And then they realize there is no secret and they're like, oh fuck don't vote we'd like so many hours of my life to learn in the secret. And it turns out it's not avocados is gonna make you thin or whatever. And that's what I feel like a lot of anti diet dietitians. That's their story. You know, not all of them obviously but a lot of them they will tell you Yeah, yeah, I got in because I wanted to learn the secrets I wanted to know how to finally control this out of control body of mine this perceived addiction to food and then realizing oh shit no, like, there is no secret and I'm not addicted to food. I'm just really fucking hungry. And then are dedicated to spreading that that knowledge to others and some people. Obviously most I Titian's go into that without that realisation and continue to find trying to search for the secret. And that's how we would look at people who are successfully thin. And even though they might have always been fit in or you know, thin is just a natural characteristic of who they are, and see them as experts in that if I do it their way they've been successful, therefore, I will be successful. With hustle culture, it's the same, there are a few people who do see success. And if I follow their advice, how could I not be rich? How can I not be successful because I want it as much as them. And they've got these secret techniques that I can't find on YouTube or whatever, I have to pay them the big bucks to find out what the secret techniques are. And turns out the secret techniques are things like being white. Getting money from your parents. Yeah, secret techniques is privilege. access to resources. Yeah. So and also, luck as well. Right. And it's the same with like dieting, I'm saying luck, as in, it's lucky to be thin, but who are those people because there is a small percent of people who, who are able to become thin and stay thin. Like, for me, I feel like they I feel it's the same with hustle culture, I feel like they are probably engaging in disordered eating, to maintain that probably don't know for sure. And I feel like with hustle culture, they are probably engaging in unethical practices. To some degree, I'm not saying unethical, like they're stealing money from people, but you know, maybe being a bit more coercive, then really, they they know, we know, they, they wouldn't like to think of themselves like that. But maybe they are being coercive. One of my favorite influencers, who were in the online space, who I really liked, because he was a fat, he is a fat gay guy. He actually walked away from the online business world, because he found it to be he couldn't align with his morals, with his values, the coercion that he had to engage in to be successful. So he just walked away from it. And I thought that was really cool. And just goes to show kind of like, what is what are the other people who are successful doing? And I know, because they would teach the techniques of what was that was one person that would be teaching, persuasion revolution, and it was like, ethically, manipulating people. And I was like, even then I was like, ethically manipulate people? I don't know. No, that doesn't sound are using you using psychology to get people to give you their money. Anyway, so Okay, so the next characteristic is, things not being based on evidence. So the evidence shows us that the vast majority majority of people will not lose weight. But when you're in anti fat culture, you were not looking at that evidence. Even if you knew it at the time, you probably didn't know at the time, I didn't know at the time, but even if you did, because I probably knew at the time that maybe I knew, like, only 50% of people lose weight. You know, maybe that's what I believed. For. If it was never, that was true. Only 50% and I would be I was like, I'm gonna be in that 50% Because this bitch wants it. And I'm going to work really hard and I'm not going to be lazy like the other fat people who were still fat. So I was ignoring evidence or I was not presented with the evidence, right. So anti fatness is not based on evidence, the idea that fatness is unhealthy and that it's easy to become not fat is not based in good evidence, right? And with hustle culture, the vast majority of people are not going to become millionaires who are taking think about you know, that that fucking dick smear. Andrew Hey, Andrew Tay if you don't know him. I don't I wasn't gonna say Google him. Probably don't. But it was a vice documentary that came out recently, which was interviewing him. And he's just and just an absolute boil that needs to be lanced. Like. He has heard his politics and his, the way he treats women and the way that he talks Some people anyway, so he you know that his whole rhetoric has this thing called, oh, is it it's called a hustler University. Ah, it's called hustler University. That which is also an a scam. It's a pyramid scheme. So the hustler university, they teach you come in, and then recruit and other people to come in. And that's how you're gonna go to become a millionaire, which is not, it's not gonna work. And so that's all of that rhetoric around. If you want it, you'll you'll, you'll do it, you'll you'll, you'll hustle your way. And there's not that evidence, right? There's no evidence that all you need to do is buy a 1299 course. And then you'll become a millionaire. It's not evidence based. Imagine, you know, because we'd all be millionaires, if that's all it took. And then and then well, they say, you know, and you have to hustle, right? You have to, you can't just buy the course you have to hustle. And what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean? Hustle, have privilege. So now the next one, the next characteristic is denying privilege. So those who are successfully thin did it because they are better than the greedy out of control fat people. It has nothing to do with their natural body type, and access to resources. And with hustle culture, those who are rich, are the ones who have hustled the most, who worked the hardest and knew the secrets, it has nothing to do with their proximity to privilege, and access to resources. So what we don't know about most of these hustlers that gurus were looking up to, is that they had access to a ton of things that the average person might not have access to. But their story will be I came from nothing, you know, like that, that one of the Kardashians had that. magazine cover cover that said, self made billionaire. And it's like, did they have millionaire parents? And then you might have some people who were like, I think Gary Vee, who's like, I am self made? I don't know, you know, I don't know his story. But let's pretend that they came from like, from a very poor family. And I don't know, I don't know, they had he had difficult circumstances. He is still a white, or white presenting person. He's still a man. He still lives in America. He still has a personality type that is he's able to communicate, right? He's able to to influence. And then all of those other things that we don't know about, like, did he ever have access to like friendships that meant that he was going to get funding? Or? Or did he have a mother that said, you can live in my spare bedroom for free? Did he have? What else did he have that he's not telling us? Did he exploit others to get to that place? Did he you know, have people working for him and then paying them nothing? And they did that hard work? And he's saying, Oh, it's all me. It's all me. But he was like, exploiting other people. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know his story. But from the people that I've learned from, I've been like, oh, well, okay, well, you know, I don't have a basement that I can live in. I don't have I know, I'm not living in this swanky location, or whatever. And the success that I have the success I have seen, I really feel like, I have this personality privilege. Obviously, I have white privilege. I'm non disabled.

Speaker 1 38:54

I live in Canada, I have a British accent that a lot of people presume that I have a level of intelligence that I might not have. And I just I think, you know, a lot of that stuff. And then I think maybe, you know, look, and, and that also that I've done things, I've done things and I don't think it's because I'm better or smarter. I think it's because I'm mostly neurotypical. And so for me doing things is easier. But say, if I wanted to make money telling people how to have an online business, I couldn't make money like that, right? I couldn't say to people, listen, I have a white skin. So you know, I have a certain personality where I'm able to talk to people. And, you know, my brain happens to work like this. And I have a live in a supportive community. And, you know, because it's not that quick fix binary thinking that we're taught of just do ABC and then you'll be a millionaire, then you'll be 13 or whatever. And I think it's probably hard for people to Uh, people are very, very stuck on, I'm a hard worker. And I feel like we're all hard workers, you know. And that also hard working is not a sign that you're a good person. And in fact, we should not be fetishizing hard work so much, and we should be resting away more. But, you know, I really don't believe that, that people are out there saying I don't want to engage in things that feel productive to me, as long as you know, they their mental health is, is good. I feel like laziness really is. Yeah, it's a myth, like Dr. Devin price sets. Anyway, so yeah, a lot of people who have privilege in the world rich, thin, etc, they didn't get that privilege because of of the contents of their character. And then being a good person, it was a roll of the dice, the luck of the draw, and their previous access to resources. And they probably worked hard to beat everyone, you know, everyone is working hard. And not everyone is gonna see the same success, like one person could see be thin. And as we know, 100 people could follow the exact same diet. And it's only that one person, or maybe one or two other that will see similar success. And it's same with hustle culture. Honestly, I actually, with all of the time that I was in the online business world, I don't know of anyone who has become a millionaire, I don't know anyone who's become really, really rich, I know people who were able to pay their bills. And that's where I that's where I got to able to pay my bills, able to pay my rent, you know. And imagine if they sell programs like that, like if, if they were true, right? If it was based in reality of Give me all your money, and you after five years, we'll get to the place where you can just about pay your rent, or with a diet one, give me like loads of money and spend so much time dieting, and you'll temporarily lose four pounds, and then you'll put back on seven. Or, you know, I'm I'm the case of like, with all my businesses, I think I'm very lucky that I'm able to pay my rent, right? And so for the most people would be Give me your money, and I'll take all your money, and then you'll have to go back and get a job and then feel like a giant failure. I think that's like most people's most people's experiences. Unfortunately, I don't want to listen, I don't want it if people are thinking about going into the online business world, I don't want to make you feel like shit and be like, Oh, it's never gonna work. It can absolutely work. And also, it depends on your level of privilege, and luck. And if it doesn't work for you, this I really don't think it's got a lot to do with who you are as a person in regards to your moral your morality and your ability to get things done, you know.

Speaker 1 43:16

Okay, so you both are invested in, in white supremacy culture. So, anti fatness is invested in perfectionism, and defensiveness, perfectionism of your body defensiveness in regards to defensiveness of the status quo of the science of the information that we now know about fat people and about diets, hustle, culture, individualism, individualism being the I am not going to be working in a group, I need to do this alone. So we have a lot of people who are solo entrepreneurs. And, and feeling like no one else can do it as good as them and lacking skills of working in teams and delegating. And also power hoarding. So power hoarding, as we know, there are only a, you know, the percent of rich people versus people who are not rich. And most people in the world are not rich, right? Just because you make 100 grand that doesn't make you a rich person. I'm talking about people who were millionaires, right? Both show signs of progress is more, so progress is more bigger. So that's keep growing no matter what we just want to keep going and getting bigger. And that's with with diet culture, that's, you know, even if you get thin, you're still not thin enough. Even if you are thin enough, then you're gonna get old so you're aging so that's not good enough. You know, the amount of times that people have lost weight and they still don't feel enough and so it's like more and more or with hostile culture, more money or the time one right away with anti fat culture is the right way to have a body is to have a thin body. And the right way to get a thin body is to diet and exercise. One right way in hustle culture is the way that the influential will teach you to become rich, wanting to do things a little bit more ethically, no, either or thinking. So that's that black and white binary thinking, objectivity. So, objectivity means that the belief that there is such a thing as being objective or neutral and the belief that emotions are inherently destructive or rational and should not play a role in decision making, and so that this is the objectivity like the belief that privilege doesn't have any bearing on success. And people choose to be poor or choose to be fat and, and those who are not successful are complainers or or losers or whatever. Quantity over quality that's the lose weight, no matter what become rich no matter what. And paternalism, paternalism being decision making is clear to those with power and unclear to those without it. Those who have power think that they are capable of making decisions for and in the interests of those without power. Those with power often don't think it is important or necessary to understand the viewpoint or experience of those whom, for whom they are making decisions. Those without power, understand that they do not have it and understand who does those without power do not really know how decisions get made and who makes what decisions. And yet they are completely familiar with the impact of those decisions on them. So that's an example from the workplace team who wrote that. And so with anti fats, culture, we have oh, word experts just trying to say fatties from themselves. They know what fat people need to do to get thin. And we'll ignore fat people's experiences, because they're not interesting or relevant, because they're just filled with excuses as to why they're fat and aren't successful to losing weight. Health care providers barring fat people from care because fat people slash won't, won't slash can't take their non evidence based advice of weight loss. And those who who choose to engage in dieting, or who are already thin are those who are superior, who feel superior to those who don't, or those who are fat. And with hustle culture paternalism looks like leaders in hustle culture, knowing that the majority of people taking their advice and giving them money won't succeed. And they will obscure the fact that fact from that audience, those who engage in hustle culture feel superior to those who work a nine to five or other job that they deem inferior. So I spent a long time actually going through each each facet of white supremacy culture. And every one apart from a couple anti fat culture and also cultural fit into the only ones that they didn't really fit into was worship of the written word. And I'm the only one so I'm the only one is connected to individualism, the belief that if something is going to get it done, I have to do it, I literally have no ability to delegate work to to others. So I mean, it probably fits in some way, but I wasn't able to see how it was, as I both are committed to white supremacy. Next, another characteristic is Moros moral superiority. So with anti fat culture, those who choose to be fat are lazy and intelligent, morally deficient. And our burden on society with hustle culture, those who choose to be poor or lazy, unintelligent, morally deficient and the burden on society. So the idea that there is a clear choice that people are making, and that choice causes a burden to others, and people who make the choice to be good, or morally superior. I don't know about you, but there's so many times that I have had a thinner body and I felt so morally superior to two people who had bigger bodies, like I had my shit together and they didn't. And it was temporary, right? And then I felt like a bag of shit. Okay, the next characteristic is those who raise issues are the failures. So, in anti fat culture, if you question the logistical legitimacy of anti fatness and the pursuit of Have thinness is because you're a failed thin person who is bitter, angry and jealous, and hustle culture. If you question the legitimate legitimacy of hustle culture, and the pursuit of excessive wealth, it's because you failed at hustle culture, and you are a loser, you do not have that capital, that literal capital and social capital to make critiques, according to this characteristic, and we see that too, in the fat liberation community. Think about the people who are seen as the those with authority that the outside world listen to the most. Is it the failed fat people who are complaining about being fat and being treated badly? And by the way, I'm not saying that, like, that's what I believe. But that's what how society might view fat people? Or is it with the angelic thin savior? Who was who was a researcher who was saying, Hey, don't be mean to the fatties because they have that privilege. Okay, well listen to you, because you're a successful thin person, you have more clout than a failed fat person. And same with hustle culture. If you weren't, if you're not rich, you you've got no opinion, we don't care. Because you're just complaining. You cannot critique the systems of oppression, which is how systems of oppression continue to, to thrive? Is that because everyone is saying, Yeah, we don't, we are not giving power or legitimacy to those who are not buying into those systems of oppression, to dismantle them. Okay, so next, it's your fault, you failed. So that's a characteristic, it's your fault, you failed. So in anti fat culture, if you tried to lose weight and failed, it's because you did it wrong. You didn't work hard enough. And you are lying to yourself about the effort that you put in with hustle culture, if you tried to hustle your way to financial freedom, and failed is because you did it wrong. You didn't work hard enough. And you are lying to yourself about the effort you put in. Next characteristic is it's a mindset issue. We spoke about this earlier. Anyone can be thin if they believe in themselves enough. Fat people are fat as they have issues with their mindset and can't control their oral appetite. Hustle culture, mindset issue, I gave you that example before about how I was taught I have a mindset so easily. That's why I'm not successful. Anyone can be rich, if they really want it. You're self sabotaging and have a bad mindset if

Speaker 1 53:04

you are not a millionaire yet. Those who are successful are able to challenge mindset issues, unlike you. And finally, the last characteristic that I saw was societal value and self esteem from success. So if you are thin, and stay thin, then you are a worthy person you worked hard to get there. And that shows the type of person you are a valuable member of society not like fat people who are such a great burden on healthcare systems. And in hustle culture is a culture is is you pulled yourself up from your boot from up from your bootstraps. You worked hard and didn't rest until you became a true success. You're rich. You are the type of person we like hard working and contributing to society to society. Not like poor people asking for earn and handouts. And notice how a lot of these are also to tied in with classism and health ism and ableism and capitalism. Yeah, I bet you I could like pick out the the characteristics of capitalism and I bet you it will align with anti fat culture as well, which is you know, hustle culture is basically capitalism, many facets of capitalism. And by the way, I don't want you feel I want you to I don't want you to feel bad if you engage in hustle culture, anti fat culture, have your own business or trying to become rich desire to become thin, then none of that makes you a bad person. Right? Even if you are the mark of hustle and you're just like you really enter hustle and that's just like a big part of who you are and if that works for you, if that feels good, you Do you Right? Like, if that feels good, and you feel like okay, I, you know, I'm not harming people and trying to be more secure financially is not a bad thing. What I'm critiquing here are the messages that we are told that how we should get there. And the message is being, abandon yourself, abandon yourself and your values. Kill yourself to get there, where I think that everyone should have, I think there should be universal basic income, I don't think anyone should have to hustle. I think everyone should have all of the things that they want or need, right? That they're not having to work a side job, or, or, you know, stay up working until 12 and get up at 5am, or whatever, I just don't think any of that is conducive to happy people. You know? And so basically, when, if something feels good for you, then you know, and the boss or you you, do you if it feels, you know, I don't want to poopoo on people's dreams. And I guess, you know, I guess, you know, anti fat liberation does poopoo on dreams, because we show people the evidence that there is no way to really become thin. And so that's really kind of sad for a lot of people and it takes people time to, to come to that, that realization. I think, for me, it took time for me to come to the realization of, I can't hustle my way into becoming a millionaire. You know, I cannot hard work my way into becoming rich. That's hard to think about right? Especially if you've committed a lot of time and energy to try and to do that. And now where I'm at now is like hey, guys, you know, I'd like to just unlike to have a normal life. You know, like I would like to go on vacation and I didn't I didn't want to stretch to only my own home because that seems like in Vancouver that you have to be like a zillionaire to have your own home man or maybe have my own home and and go and be able to visit my family if I want to in Ireland and not worry about it and have time off and and maybe have a nice car you know, that's a tough thing that I'm I'm looking to get to, but I will not sacrifice myself to get to those those goals. Buying a new sofa that's

Unknown Speaker 57:39

what I want. I would like a new sofa. I got a cipher off Craigslist on maybe like six years ago. It's time I think it's time to donate it to someone. Anyway, so

Speaker 1 57:56

anyway, not saying that I don't have Don't Don't worry about me. Okay. I don't want anyone to think in all Vinnie. Vinnie doesn't have money like I, I have money, I have money, okay. And I feel like I'm successful here. That's the thing is I do feel like I'm, I feel like I am accomplished. And I feel like I've done a lot of of cool things, and I'm proud of myself. Yeah. And also I forgive myself for engaging in hustle culture, and not knowing better

Unknown Speaker 58:29

because I know better now. Anyway, I'm gonna stop rambling. I'm always just thinking about you know, what, how many times

Speaker 1 58:39

I think sometimes on the podcast I'm like, oh, Vinnie, everyone thinks you're a bad person. Oh, you know all those things that you shared? I guess it's vulnerability hangover, right? Those things that you share that just made you look like a right decade and people think that you think that you're superior to them because they do some hustle stuff and they win or they're on a diet one time and and they think that you think that they're a piece of shit and that you're better all these things in my head. I just thought I'd share that with you because you will probably not though thinking those things and even if you are you know, I can't change your mind. I guess I'm trying to change your mind right now but I just find it interesting how I don't know you but I have this need for you to like me. I feel so like funny saying that like vulnerable saying that? I mean, I think that's everyone's experience right is wanting to be liked. Yeah, I guess sometimes I feel like that I'm tricking people into liking me because if they knew the real me then they'd be like, Oh, fuck that Vinnie. They're a decade. Think that's actually true, right. You know, maybe sometimes I'm a dickhead. But I think most of the time I'm just an average person. So now I'm gonna stop talking And I guess I'll see you in the next episode. I hope you stay fierce, Fatty, and I will see you in a while. Alligator I go bye

Episode 162 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 162, Fat people barred from homeownership adoption, and more. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:24

Hello, and welcome to this episode. I hope you're feeling splendid. You're having a good day, a good time a good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, or good middle of the night. Whenever you're listening to me. Welcome to this episode, I had an email from Susanna. And it has inspired me to do this episode. And actually, I've been made aware of some things that I didn't know previously. And I'm sure that you didn't know about maybe some of these or maybe all of these before the, the ways that that people are barred from from life. And Suzanna wrote me an email, which is just absolutely horrific, and frustrating and mind boggling. So I want to start this episode off with a trigger warning, we're gonna be talking about ways that fat people are discriminated against, that we might not have thought about, maybe not on the day to day basis that we think about, you know, in regards to accessibility, you know, in regards to seating and the doctor's office and things like that. And obviously, all of that is absolutely unacceptable. But there's other ways that we haven't spoken about before. And so if that's not feeling great for you today, then skip this episode. Cuz Yeah, it might be a little bit much. So anyway, so let me read this email from Susanna. Susanna says I am a faithful listener to listener of your podcast. Thank you. I am a super fat person trying to buy a house in Ireland. Ireland is the only European company country that requires a mortgage protection insurance. So mortgage protection insurance is this is me. So MPI is a type of insurance policy that helps your family make your monthly mortgage payments if you the policyholder, and mortgage borrower die before your mortgage is fully paid off. So basically, if you are someone who dies, and you have a mortgage, you've just taken out a mortgage, and so that mortgage protection insurance will pay off the policy from what I understand. So Ireland is the only country that requires MPI, mortgage protection insurance. Although looking into this, we've I've seen someone say the same thing has happened in Poland. So there might be a different name of insurance or there might be just standard insurance, because you might need standard life insurance. And so this there might be some differences, which also mean that other people in Europe and the world are discriminated in this way. Okay. So and it appears that people over a BMI and so by the way, I'm going to be mentioning BMI in this episode, because I thought about taking them out, but then I thought it might be helpful for those who are looking into these processes and themselves to know whether they are at the cut off or not. So heads up, I'm gonna be talking about BMI, okay. So it appears that people over BMI of 45 like myself, cannot obtain the mortgage protection and therefore cannot obtain the mortgage protection insurance and therefore, not buy a house having spoken to a lawyer, this is legal discrimination, so I cannot fight it in court. This is what they wrote me and so a quote from the insurance company, I have reviewed the file I'm sorry that the customer is not happy with our decision. When the medical details are assessed account was taken off the following with BMI of 48. We did not seek a GP report as a reason for the decline ature was based solely on the body mass index disclosed on the application form. If any of the details are incorrect, please advise and we would be happy to review same again. For this reason and by application of standard underwriting guidelines, it was necessary to decline this application for life cover. This decision is standard practice in the life insurance industry, and is based on tables of risk which has been compiled from actuarial experience by insurance companies worldwide. I'm sorry, we could not be of more help in this instance. Did you have any further queries at all? Do not hesitate to contact contact us. Go fuck Self. They refuse to obtain a doctor's report by their own words because they view fatness as a disease and excels in itself as you discussed in a previous episode, and then Suzanna links to another person who links to another article, another person who's experiencing same thing an article from The Irish Times about a bank refusing to release mortgage for a woman deemed at high COVID risk due to due to her weight. Susanna continues basically Irish banks could waive this requirement, but they don't because they believe based on my body size or fat people in general, I will die prematurely. Maybe that could be of interest to you for one of your podcast episodes. Thank you for your time. Your podcast is the only one who gives me faith that there are still decent people out there because living in a fat body means people usually show me their worst side yours respectfully, Susanna. The link that Suzanna shared goes to it says bank refuses to release mortgage for women deemed at high risk high COVID risk women says woman says she's been penalized for being fat and replacing the Oh words. By the way, being fat following the birth of her child. A bank has refused to release a mortgage loan to a woman seeking to buy a house over an issue connected to her mall mortgage protection policy. The woman told the Irish time she was refused covered by life insurance companies in the Republic. So the Republic of Ireland so if you think about Ireland, if you're not familiar, there is an island. There's a republic, which is in the three fourths of Ireland is Republic of Ireland. And then in the top right hand northeast corner is Northern Ireland, which is classed as the UK because that's that area is still colonized by the UK. So the companies in the Republic Republic of Ireland, she was refused coverage because they said that her BMI placed her at greater greater risk for COVID 19 complications. By the way, a study has just come out to look at all the studies that said that fat people are higher risk from COVID. What do you think it found? We're not a surprise, fuckin surprise. We don't have that information to show that fat people. If we look at this study what it showed I'll talk about it in more detail later. But this study what it showed is that because there we needed quick information that in the times of COVID, the studies that showed a link between COVID outcomes and risks and all that type of stuff that said that fatness was a risk factor, they were of poor quality, and they didn't control for certain things. Same with the h1 N one. Bird Flu wasn't a bad flu. Yeah. They said during that when that epidemic was happening, that fat people were a higher risk, fatness caused increased deaths, etc. Afterwards, when they had the time they looked at the studies again, they controlled for weight bias. And so they controlled for time when people got treatment. And so if fat people were treated the same as sin people, the outcomes were identical. So anyway, this is not based on science continuing, however, despite the woman's subsequently sourcing cover, with a UK based insurer, her bank is still refusing to release the mortgage. She said, Yeah, so she probably went to the north of Ireland, she might have gone to England and got a policy from the north. And so this is literally the difference between walking 10 minutes somewhere else and you're in a different country. But you're you know, it's ridiculous. Basically, if you've got a UK based insurer saying, we'll cover you. The bank is saying no, it needs to be someone from the Republic. Every bank in the republic is saying we do not cover fat people. So the woman in the early in her early 30s had a baby early last year and said her BMI had been high since the birth. She pointed out that she'd been medically assessed by a nurse working on behalf of a UK based insurance company. Somebody subsequently offered her offered cover for 10 year period. Despite this, her bank said this cover was insufficient. The bank's refusal to let her drawdown for mortgage was putting the purchase of the home she is under contract by at serious risk. She says I'm at the end of my tether, but I'm not giving up without a fight. I had a baby in 2020 and I haven't lost the baby weight. I know that but the insurance companies and now the bank are penalizing me for that. The woman who asked not to be named said the woman said she had permanent pensionable job with death in service benefits substantially higher than the value of the mortgage of 116,000 euros that she applied for. She also said that she has separate financial safety net in place and now had mortgage protection cover for over 10 years. She has also re restructured the term of the Post morgase reducing by it to 16 years as somewhat. So the mortgage is only over 16 years and they're so worried that she's about to die because she has a BMI of a certain amount. There will still refuse it doesn't make sense. She's also she says I'm also putting down a huge chunk of savings, and the loan to value ratio is less than 80%. However, the bank has refused to budge. The woman said the she went, woman said she went sail agreed on what would be her first home last December, and was set to move out of her rented accommodation at the end of March. I have literally nowhere else to go. And the vendor is extremely frustrated and wants to put it back on the market. I went off to sleep on my parents couch from Saturday. absolutely outrageous. I replied to Susanna, I don't know if this is this is going to help anyone but I'm I just want to let you know of a resource. So I said to Susanna, thanks so much for reaching out. I'm furious for you. This is absolutely unacceptable and vile. I'm so so sorry that you're experiencing this. The latest episode of the podcast comes out this week. And it's about legal stuff being fat in the workplace. The only way around this is that your lawyer may not be familiar with is suing on the grounds of their definition of fatness, as a disease, this would fall under disability discrimination. There is an organization that may be able to help or not but it's in the US is called flare. So flare project.org, flare prod project are the people who are working with Dove. And he's asked her or Nafa to work on laws to protect fat people in the US. So that's the thing. I said some of the things to to Susanna and asked if she would like me to use this in in the podcast episode. And she said yes, I absolutely would like it. And that she had reached out to flair and had booked a chat with them. So thing is though, I don't know, I really hope that this can get resolved. Because not being able to buy a home in your country is wicked. It's wickedly awful.

Unknown Speaker 12:23

Talk about systemic discrimination. I'm just it makes me feel sick, that this is happening and when and someone else so I put a story up and I asked Has anyone else had experience with this? What about other discrimination that we might not have thought about? And someone else said that there was a guy in Poland who couldn't buy a house because of the same thing he couldn't get insurance. Because insurers tend to think that seem to think that fat people are about to die at any moment. And it's so interesting like that that response, you know, from that insurance company saying the decision is standard practice and is based on tables of risk which have been compiled from actuarial experience by insurance companies worldwide. It's not true. It's not true that fat people are dying younger. If you're looking at the health of a person, if the doctor says their health is good, why are we not using that information versus an arbitrary number? And we know the insurance companies are the the genesis of BMI being used to profit from fatness and BMI being established as a guide for health and Louie doubling from MetLife in the 1930s. He is the guy that has started this and it is not from good data. It drives me bananas it you're so so I asked people what what other things have you have seen. And so people have said I'm just gonna read them out and then we're gonna go into each each one. You can't work as a nurse in Arab countries If your BMI is over 30. In the US, you can't donate your body for scientific research if you're over a certain BMI. Three times the price of health insurance with less coverage based on BMI with good labs and no medical issues. I've heard of adoption agencies not placing kids with parents who are fat. I work with underage teens and the systemic barriers to size in schools is disturbing. Someone else had basics furniture rollercoasters, transit airplanes don't fit us safely and comfortably. There was a man in Poland who wanted to buy a flat but didn't get it loan Okay, so he didn't get get didn't get the mortgage. You had to get the oh okay, so you had to get the insurance along with the loan and they guessed that he wouldn't live long enough so it was he got the loan but not the insurance, hospital hospital social worker here huge uptick in rehab, lawn care placement, etc denying long care, long term care etc denying placement due to size. Women needing fertility help are denied due to BMI in Canada, you can't adopt in the UK If your BMI is over their criteria 40 I think I think adopting children from other countries as well as some fertility treatments. There are areas in the UK and Ireland work where one can't adopt a child If your BMI is quote, high, can't get life salary or health insurance in the UK, no problem mortgage protection and payment protection insurance in Canada denied health insurance due to BMI by two separate companies. So I've picked a few of these to look into and see what we know about him. All of those are absolutely unacceptable. absolutely unacceptable. So let's start with adoption. What do we know about adoption? So looking into it, basically looking into it, it's not a absolute rule that you cannot adopt, if your BMI is over 40. By the way, if you're not familiar with BMI, a BMI of 40 isn't high. Right? It's not, it's not, you know, it's gonna affect a lot of people. Right? It's just it. The cut off is I think the cut off is the 40 between someone who is classified as Oh word versus morbidly o word, which is all just made up is just absolute garbage bullshit. dogshit a fucking ate it is made up shit. And people are being using that to discriminate against people. And so basically what from what I found, I'm gonna give you quotes from different articles, what I found is there are many instances of people being denied. There are instances of people being told to lose weight, then going away losing weight and then getting the kid there are instances where it is seen as a negative factor. And so a social worker needs to assess if the fat person knows that they're a disgusting fat person and promises to not make the child fat, and then they will be accepted. There is no world wide definite cutoff. So if you're looking to adopt and you have a BMI around 40, or more than 40, please don't feel disheartened that it's it's not a possibility for you. There will be places where they'll they will say no. And there will be places where they will say yes, and there will be places where they say maybe Okay, so here's a post from the guardian to fat to adopt the married teetotal couple rejected by counsel because of man's weight. Charlotte and Damian Hall are teetotal non smokers with a stable 11 year marriage behind them. She has a career as a nanny, and he shares her love of children, they would appear to be ideal candidates as adopters for a child in need of a new family. But yesterday emerged that Leeds City Council so this isn't UK, by the way, has rejected the halls because he is too fat. The couple has approached the authority about adoption adoption after health checks were informed his one his six foot one physique, they're giving them his weight physique gave him a body mass index of 42. Again, it's a low number. So he's his BMI is 42, categorized as morbidly Oh, and at increased risk of serious illness or death. It's so ironic, increased risk of serious illness and death due to weight bias like is due to being forced to lose weight, yo yo dieting due to medical stigma. The couple were told that if his BMI dropped below 40 And he was able to maintain the weight loss they would be reconsidered, again, something that is not possible for the vast majority of people, which is also a risk to his health because intentionally losing weights has negative side effects. In a letter to the local authority told the halls we are unable to progress an application from you at this time. This is due to the concerns that the medical advisors have expressed regarding Mr. Hall's wait. We will require Mr. Hall to have a further medical and six ml It's time which we will be considered which will be considered by a medical adviser. It added that the adoption panel was unlikely to approve applicants with a BMI over 40 because of the long term health risks. A tote spokeswoman said quote the council's adoption service has a legal responsibility to ensure that it's looked after children are placed with adopters who are able to provide the best possible lifelong care. Part of this responsibility is advice for applicants on a range of suitability criteria including any health or lifestyle issues which may impact on an applicant's long term ability to adopt. Now, let's look let's look at this. We have a legal responsibility. This is what the adoption agency we have a legal responsibility to ensure that children are placed with adopters who are able to provide the best care so fat people can provide the best care because fatness automatic, it automatically means that a lack of health so they're saying including health or lifestyle issues also apparently fatness is a lifestyle issue. When we know that fatness is just a normal way of having a body and also so the doctor said not said Mr. Hall has XYZ health problems. They've just said he happens to live in a fat body. And so because he happens to live in a fat body with no medical issues with with a they saying teetotal What do they say non smoking? Absolutely. Everything else is suitable. Apart from the fact that they believe that fatness equals ill health equals dying prematurely equals not being able to look after children and that is wrong.

Unknown Speaker 21:54

So elsewhere in the UK in Lincolnshire, Lincolnshire, talked about size and so the Lincolnshire county council follows a guidelines from the British Association for adoption and fostering and the Chief Medical Officer regarding weight and for applicants with a BMI of over 40 would suggest that they need to make efforts efforts to reduce the weight before applying. So in Lincolnshire, they say you need to have a BMI of 40. And if you don't, you need to make efforts to reduce your weight. And then they say there is no weight which would definitely preclude anyone from adopting adopting. No families were rejected by Lincolnshire county council because they fail to meet its weight or BMI criteria in 2019 or between 2015 and 2019. So in Lincolnshire, which is a large county in the UK, no one was rejected because of weight. I wonder though, I wonder though, if people were were rejected due to health if someone was fat, and they also happen to have a another health condition. So if they had type two diabetes, which is associated with fatness not caused by fatness associated by fatness. And that was a reason. So I don't know. But that seems like they, they they are more flexible. Here is a document links to everything in the show notes, by the way. So you can find this if you if you want to subject your poor brain to this bullshit. There's a guide here that has been created on guidance on fat adopters. And so this is for social workers. And this is saying, This is how we screen fat people. It is so fucking offensive. So I'm scrolling down to point for evidence to be gathered during social worker assessment of Oh, word applicants. There are suggested questions and so we want to they were saying we want to understand their knowledge and understanding their attitudes, their behaviors and what outcomes have come from your time with this person. So these are the questions are asking, What does the applicant understand about the causes of being fat? And how these causes contribute to ill health? I mean, what if I wanted to adopt I don't? What if I did, and they interviewed me? I could not I don't think I could lie and say it's just a normal way to have a body and contribution to ill health is yo yo dieting and and the way society treats fat people. The next question in the circumstances of the applicant, what factors or combination of factors do they think have caused them to be fat? And I would say it's just a normal way of having a body and presumably the person would have like, denies responsibility for being fat. What does the applicant understand by a healthy diet for their family? Li? Are they asking the same thing to thin people? No. Are other family members fat? What the fuck is that got to do with anything? In the case of foster carers applying to become adopters have previous children placed with them gained excessive weight? It's just so fucked up. Have they gained excessive weight? Wouldn't this have children who are in foster care who are up for adoption? What do we think they could have experienced trauma? What type of trauma? Could they have experienced? I don't know, let's think maybe they could have experienced food insecurity. Maybe they came from poverty, maybe they came from a place where they were not able to access food freely. Maybe they were in a group home where they didn't have a variety of food to have access to. And then what might happen if they get into a home where they have a little bit more freedom, where they have a little bit more resources? Potentially? What might they do the same thing that we all do? When we are getting out of diet land? How might they comfort themselves? How might the if I mean shit, wouldn't you if you were looking after a child, I would be giving them so much of everything. I'd be giving them all the delicious food, the most comfortable bed, like toys that they loved, nice clothes, you know, like within, like within what I could afford, wouldn't you. But you, you wouldn't be treating them like you would someone that needed love and care. And an outcome of that might mean that they have a bigger body or not. And so you could be doing the exact things that that child needs, giving a secure food source, and how they have gained weight. And now it's like, wow, sorry, the last kid that you had, who you were doing the absolute best for is chubby. So you're a bad parent? No. Absolutely not. So, so fucked up. Okay, other things attitudes. What is the applicants attitude to physical exercise currently, because we all know fat people never exercise? Does the applicant plan to lose weight? Has the applicant tried to lose weight? How would the applicant support a child in their care who was fat and needs help to lose weight? How would they help a child to lose weight? This is abusive? Can you imagine? Oh my God talking about trying to fuck up the kid even more gets into an adoption placement. And then he's put on a fucking diet after the shit that that child might have gone through? No thank you. behaviors. What is the applicant currently doing in order to live a healthy lifestyle? In terms? Okay, so what they define a healthy lifestyle? How do they define a healthy lifestyle? Their dietary intake and their physical activity because there is no other version of health? How has this changed over time? Is the applicant able to provide a child with physical daily activity? How would they do that? What is the applicant's capacity? Do you engage in physical activity? Do they go to the gym? How often? Do they become breathless climbing a flight of stairs? Yeah. No. Does the applicant have time and resources to successfully lose weight? No, because weight loss doesn't work? are they receiving response support from Weight Watchers? You have got to be fucking kidding me? Are they receiving support? And they're saying from their partner from their GP from the staff at the gym from slimming organizations such as weight watchers. One of the chances or Weight Watchers has embedded themselves into the adoption agencies. This is absolutely horrific. And then okay, so then the outcomes from this meeting. So the outcomes next time you meet with them, how much weight has the applicant lost? Over what period of time how they achieved this could this be continued when a child is placed with them? Fuck you. Whoever wrote this. I hate it. It is so stigmatizing. It is so offensive. It is so wrong. It's just wrong. This is not helping anyone He's not helping kids. Fuck that person fucking hate them. Okay, so a story from someone who in the UK we were turned down for adoption for being Oh word. Okay, so the guy says, we've made contact with Barnardos. This isn't UK by the way, Barnardos is a children's charity. And at first nothing was said we were told we'd be perfect for adoption as we were young and we had good jobs. It was only after a meeting with our area manager a few weeks later that she explained we would need to lose weight as it was a requirement. She explained that the medical adviser would reject our application otherwise, as it was important to promote a healthy image to children that we would adopt great way to promote a healthy images through fucking dieting and hating your body. Good.

Unknown Speaker 30:53

At first, we challenged you but they but the agency insisted it was non negotiable, my wife and I couldn't help but feel incredibly hurt and upset because we knew our body shape could could and would never impact our ability to prayer and exactly we were both given a weight target of a stone to lose which is 14 pounds which would be confirmed through medical examinations for fuck sake the pressure it placed on us was an measurable we felt guilty whenever we ate and there were would be tension if one of us lost weight but the other different didn't at times we even considered giving up it was it was so hard but we were determined to do it as we desperately want it to be parents. So it continues on basically they lost weight temporarily they adopted a child who is thriving they then want you to adopt again and instead of looking at their past experience how well is that child doing? You know have has the child died because the parents are so fat and disgusting that they you know, just ate the baby or whatever. Turns out not the child is thriving, but what did they have to do? Lose weight and so that's what where they left off is in their in the process again of losing weight temporarily just to meet this arbitrary fucked up definition of what health is fun times. Okay, so here's a story from the US. The notoriously complex adoption process has just got even harder for one man who claims his weight led to a judge deem him ineligible to adopt. Gary stock law firm told blah, blah blah in Kansas City, Missouri, that a family court ruled him unfit adoptive parent because of his weight stock law firm wants to adopt and his infant cousin because the mother is unable to care for the child, his cousin, we all know the best thing for children is to stay with family. If not then other family know because you too fucking fat, quote. It is what it was adopted, said if someone is fat, and therefore has diabetes, because obviously we all know all fat people have diabetes, and has had two heart attacks. Oh, of course, because we all know that fat people have had have two heart attacks. Well, that's a big risk for that kid. If the circumstance in the given case is that this kid isn't going to get long term loving home then you have to make a tough judgement. Go fuck yourself. That's adoption. IVF quote from National Post piece should there be a weight cut cut off for IVF firestorm of debate over denying fertility treatments to fat women. So in BC in Canada, private IVF clinics outside hospitals are not permitted to perform egg retrievals in women with a BMI over 38. So heartbreaking. Alberta, which is a province over has no restrictions. This is a quote from a doctor. To me it's a medical issue. It's not a discrimination issue. Yes, it fucking is. fat women are running risks in pregnancy and if they're running risks in pregnancy and white pregnancy, why should you be helping them get pregnant? You Gen X. Oh hello, eugenics. Dr. Laskin, here's a person who said this, who is a giant human turd has a BMI cut off off 35 Mine is a brick wall. He said other clients will go as other clinics will go as high as 40. Some have no cut off. Dr. Laskin says fatness makes IVF technically more difficult. Boo. Dr. Laskin, it's too hard. To work on the easy patients with IVF eggs are retrieved from the woman's ovaries via an ultrasound guided, ultrasound guided needle. But if you may, but you may have difficulty getting to the ovary. Dr. Laskin said the ovaries too. tend to be pushed up higher and the women's anatomy and excess fat can make it harder to visualize ovaries on ultrasound. Oh, you get a better ultrasound machine. Try harder. What a weird way to say I lack skills and I don't give a shit. I only want to do easy things. He couldn't continues. Fat Women also tend to respond more poorly to fertility drugs, you have to use a lot more drug to get a reasonable response. Oh, you got to give them two pills. It's such a hardship Dr. Laskin. Could that be? Let's use some critical thinking skills. Next Newsom. Dr. Baskin, could it be that the drugs were not made? For fat people? They were created with thin people in mind. They were they were tested on thin bodies. And that is not the problem of the fat people. That's the problem of the drug companies of the medical establishment. And so what do we do to fix that? Do we deny people the ability to have children? Or do we work harder to fix this issue? my spidey senses are saying we work harder. And if you want to know more about fertility, go to Nicola salmon, Nicola Sal mo en fat positive fertility and she will school are you on all of the bullshit.

Unknown Speaker 36:41

So I hoped Dr. Laskin goes in the bin because that's where Dr. Raskin belongs. There's a piece by the New York Times, and it talks about when you're told you're too fat to get pregnant. By the way, in that last story, there was a lot of women, women, women, women, it's not just women who access IVF treatment and who get pregnant. So just a heads up. Okay, so this New York Times piece, quote, during the first appointment point rented a large Boston fertility click click click click, click Nick clinic. Balzano says the reproductive endocrinologist was cold and unsmiling as she reviewed the couple's medical history. Her first question was whether Bolzano was ovulating. Irregular ovulation when a when a woman's ovaries failed to release eggs during the appropriate phase of the menstrual cycle, or other other genders is one of the most common causes of infertility. And what Balzano wasn't sure it was difficult to attract, track her erratic cycles at home, the specialist asked no follow up questions. It's your weight. She said. The doctor belzona was convinced I had reduced her to a single characteristic. It was like Why wait, there might be something else wrong. She recalls. My mum isn't fat, but she only had one pregnancy, and she was never on birth control. Couldn't there be something else going on here? Nick was furious. I know plenty of larger women who have been pregnant without any problems. He says this didn't make any sense. But they both say the doctor who declined my interview request on the basis of patient confidentiality, was adamant. I would never give you IVF they recall her saying you're too fat, have more sex and lose the weight. Although Bolzano didn't know it when she made the appointment the clinic that would have performed the procedure had a policy against providing IVF to patients with a BMI above 45 genius was 51.2. In that decision, it followed much of the fatalities industries, including half of of the 20 largest clinics in the United States. According to Phillips fertility, IQ and online clearinghouse of information on fertility providers nationwide. At some clinics, the cutoff for treatment is a BMI of 50 often classes, quote extreme or severe Oh word and others it's much lower. Chelsea Ritchie is now the mother of twins in Ham Lake, Minnesota, or Minneapolis, I don't know got a call from a nurse the day before her initial appointment with a verdict filleted annuity doctor in 2011. She said, I don't know only sees patients with a BMI under 30. So you need to lose 22 pounds. Ricci recalls. The doctor told me that that has cut off for seeing patients is actually a BMI of 35 Though he won't do IVF unless they're under 30. Richie subsequently conceived her twins after going to a different clinic. The belief that a high body weight causes infertility into fertility and its corollary that weight loss is necessary. Ready to resolve infertility underpin almost every interaction a heavy woman will have with reproductive healthcare industry, yet especially on OTs, to governing organizations, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine and the society or for assisted reproductive medicine technology have not established any guidelines on whether the treatment whether treatment should be declined on the basis of weight. I know someone in BC and BC where I am British Columbia in Vancouver in Canada who was devastated by being turned down because of her weight for IVF. She ended up having a two children naturally, but it was just heartbreaking. So insurance so other insurance we have weighed absolutely impacts the ability to get insurance and to get the best coverage and to get the cheapest coverage. So I found a table which looks at the maximum weight for standard premiums, and this is all genders. And so if you are is so low to get standard premiums from Manulife you need to be if you're five, eight, let's just do it on five eight because it's you know, because it's any gender, five eight person actually use 5758 is slightly covered up. Five, seven. So if you're five seven, if you wanted to get insured by Manulife you need to be 161 pounds for Sunlife 211 s es que insurance 238. And that's for standard premium standard premiums. That doesn't mean that you're not going to get insurance if you're over 161 pounds at Manulife it means that you have to pay more, but there will be cut offs for many places which will not insure people at all. And also there are insurance companies which you don't need a medical. So insurance, depending on where you are, you will will almost likely definitely be charged more if you have a bigger body. And some places you will you'll be denied totally in some places wait is not a consideration. Let's move to work. So here's a piece from Bloomberg wage discrimination. Discrimination remains legal in most of the US and the world. Specific specific protections can spur better treatment. And so this is talking about what laws we have at the moment and how people in places that have laws have used them to protect themselves from from anti fat bias. Michigan's law laws law made possible a lawsuit resolved on undisclosed terms by a store manager for the luxury retailer coach who alleged that the company had promoted her when she was petite, then fired her when she was an athlete first pressured her to take the weight loss hormones, get bariatric surgery and eat more Lean Cuisines in San Francisco. A settlement with an aerobics instructor forced Jazzercise Inc. to stop requiring its dance fitness teachers to quote look leaner than the public. You can't see if you're listening but I'm I'm making eyes at that. This is a from a piece from a Texas Tribune at Victoria Hospital Victoria in Texas in the US, fat jawed job candidates need not apply. A Victoria Hospital already embroiled in a racial discrimination lawsuit has instituted a highly unusual hiring policy. It bans job applicants from employment for being too fat Victoria Hospital, they just read that but the citizens Medical Center policy, instituted a little more than a year ago requires potential employees to have a BMI of less than 35 which is 210 pounds for someone who is five foot five. It states an employee's physique quote should fit with a representational image or specific mental projection of the job of a healthcare professional, including an appearance quote, free from distraction from hospital patients. pushbutton patients are distracted by the presence of a fat person. They need to be schooled and educated on their bias. The majority of our patients are over 65 and they have expectations that cannot be ignored in terms of personal appearance. Yes, they can. They can't be ignored, because they're based in bigotry. hospital chief executive David Brown said that in an interview, we have the ability as an employer to characterize our process, and to have a policy that says what's best for our business. And for our patients. employment lawyers say citizen medical centers hiring policy, that policy isn't against the law. Only the state of Michigan and six US cities, including San Francisco and Washington DC, banned discrimination against the fat in hiring. So I was trying to find someone to have to come on saying you can't get a job if you're if you're over 35 BMI in Arab countries, I was trying to find that but you know what some you know, when you put BMI and weight loss into Google, ie the amount of weight loss stuff that comes up, and the amount of nurse loses weight and now now they are able to properly care for clients. Yeah, cuz they, they, they have a brand new brain that makes them be able to care for clients better because they have a smaller body. Yeah, all of that medical training was useless before because they had a bigger body.

Unknown Speaker 46:12

Donating body to science. This is from Vice. Most Americans are too fat to donate their bodies to science. Scott Muffet Macpherson's mum had been dead for less than 24 hours when the phone rang with more bad news. Delores Macpherson's body was on its way to the university University of New England's whole body donation program, but it had been turned back because of her BMI. Here I am just hours after my mum mums passes and I'm going against her wishes because the school shut the door on her. Scott recalls. The medical school no longer wanted her despite a contract signed 12 years before her death. They told Scott his 84 year old mum had been disqualified for becoming a word. fatness is one of just many reasons whole body donations are denied by schools like the University of New England. But in a nation where two thirds of the population is fat. It's a growing concern. Not least four would be donors facing what amounts to the ultimate fat shaming. A lot of people who are fat they've been so stigmatized during their lives, says Ronald Wade, Director of the Maryland State anatomy board Department of Health and Mental Hygiene. Then the last thing they're told is no one even wants your body. Commonly referred to as donating your body to science whole body donations are used for both Medical Education and Research at universities across the country. Medical students are required to take an anatomy course early on in their studies, dissecting cadavers to learn the ins and outs of the body. While those were surgical ambitions often end up working with cadavers later in their student studies to practice technical surgical techniques. Medical researchers use dead bodies to studying the effects of various diseases and organs to advance medicine. To donate however, requires meeting a number of criteria not regulated by the federal state governments in most areas, the guidelines for disqualifying a body vary from program to program. Institutional programs typically exclude donors who have suffered some sort of trauma such as a car accident or limb amputation and those who died of an infectious disease. Many use BMI as a guide for a Sona donor size disqualifying anyone with a BMI of over 35 While others spell out specific heights and weights. The direct Donor Program at IU SM tells donors that cannot exceed six foot tall and 200 pounds. Although the quote maximum acceptable weight of a donor may be lower based on the person's height. And Tallarico says that there is some quote wiggle room on a donor size. The weight criteria to criteria I USM is on the higher end for institutions. Higher end at 200 pounds. This tiny teleferico add some schools limit donations to people at 180 pounds or smaller. And yet the CDC released data in summer of 2016 that show the weight of the average American man is 195.7 pounds. As in the average American man is not currently able to donate his body to science because simply because of his weight. Wade says that there is a bonafide need for the bodies that are turned away in most places. However, his office places some larger bodies with medical researchers on occasion on occasion, but they're particularly useful in clinical training because they're more reflective than small donors of the patient population. patient population, everyone from EMTs to trauma doctors to morticians will encounter in the field. No, sorry, I read that weird quote in the ER patients come in with different shapes and sizes. He explains big people have cardiac arrests. They have false if you're proud To think intubation, you don't want a little old emaciated person. The latter is a typical donor accepted by donor programs, someone whose body is has not suffered trauma that would exclude them and has either carried a smaller frame through life or seen BMI drop due to loss of muscle mass and fat from age and disease. Those people need treatment in emergency and operating rooms, too. But the CDC fatness statistics indicate there are fewer of them than their larger peers. So why aren't the cadavers in medical schools reflective of that patient population as well. Anatomy classes are designed to teach future doctors what a body should look like a marker of health. And you see how this is so systemic. Doctors are learning on thin cadavers. They're being told that thinness is the preference. Drugs are being tested on thin people, medical devices, procedures, all of that is all focused on thin people. And so then when it gets to things not working on fat people, well, it doesn't take a genius to be like, ah, could that be? Why is it Dr. Dickhead from the the IVF treatment is not able to do his job correctly. Because he has not been taught on fat bodies. And he has been not been taught on fat bodies and told that's because fat bodies are wrong, and therefore fat people are turned away therefore fat people are not able to get pregnant when they need help. Then they turn to adoption. And then they say okay, well I'm gonna buy a house and then they turned away there. And they say I'm what I'm gonna get this new job and then they're turned away. They're all legally. And there's a whole episode like when I'm thinking I'm just thinking like, Oh, so many different things about the work thing. There's a whole episode I did on workplace discrimination, that people are hired less paid less promoted less. Everything you expect to see basically, citizen and Citizenship and Immigration, which is my goodness, getting fat people to not be able to live in countries, not be able to buy homes, not be able to reproduce, not be able to adopt children, not be able to get jobs, not be able to get insurance. Mmm hmm. So New Zealand, which is a notoriously fat phobic place. They were the people who out of University of Ortego came up with the jaw wiring. bullshit that came out a couple of years ago. Anyway, so to two stories here. We have the first is from the Atlantic, the misguided logic of deporting fat people. So quote from that a South African man is facing deportation due to his stature. After six years living in New Zealand, Albert guten hide who's viewed Butan who's may have to go back to South Africa, the government, the government decided he's too heavy to stay. Butan Hughes is now facing deportation. After officials denied his request to renew his work visa. He and his wife claim to have no previous trouble with that annual visual fees of renewals. New Zealand's immigration ministry maintains that at more than x pounds, his weight puts him at added risk for diabetes, high blood pressure and heart disease. Despite reports from his physician that he's on track to track to correct a number of his health problems. The ministry remains concerned that weight related issues will translate into hefty future costs. New Zealand claims that it is simply exercising its policy to hold immigrants to standards that minimize their burdens on the country's health services. This year is assessments include flagging, and reviewing every immigrant with a body mass index greater than 35 meaning Butan who's no longer meets those standards. I wonder what happened. I wonder what happened to him. This next one is from 2021. To fat for for New Zealand mum can't lose weight fast enough for immigration officials. A woman deemed too fat for New Zealand residency is gutted a country committed to kindness is so brazenly shaming her and penalizing her family. doctors and medical tests are an agreement on Daliah views and and hoot This is a different person. This is a different this is so funny, but there's that their last names are so similar. Okay the guy from the first story Butan Hughes and then her name is bears schreeten Hoot bears we hunt bears, we didn't hoot because we didn't hoot mon del mon Daliah because we didn't hoot is in good health despite

Unknown Speaker 55:42

weighing. We don't need to know. However, an immigration New Zealand medical assessment determined her body mass index put her at quote severe risk category. Her application for residency was declined putting her family's future in jeopardy. The 35 year old immigrated to New Zealand with her husband Donovan and children Donna and Damien now 10 and three from South Africa in 2018, settling in Palmerston North. Donovan is a skilled migrant meaning his job as alignment is difficult is a difficult role to fill. Because of her rejection, no one in her family was granted residency. My whole family's life was in my hands and I blew it. It was all on me. It was a really it was really hard to swallow. It was my daughter who actually said to me, thumb they fat shamed you. And Immigration NZ spokesperson told stuff. There's Swindon hoots fatness alone was not grounds for declining a residency application but a gallbladder removal and 2013 and tension headaches. What the fuck is that got to do with fatness tension headaches? Was was evidence her fatness would be costly on the public health system? Oh, fuck off that burden has been calculated at $41,000 $41,000 How is that some huge burden for a family of four with a skilled worker to children who are going to be contributing to the economy and that the the mum there to 41,000 and that's their, their their costs, that's hurt their estimates if she gets I know who knows what they've estimated it on. But apparently she's gonna you know, her eyeballs are gonna fall out because she's so fat, whatever. Okay, so she gained full time employment in a government department and received a three year work visa granting her access to public health system. And the thought of now having to leave New Zealand after her family has established Roots was, quote, heartbreaking, scary as scary as hell, especially for their children. A son was seven months old when they left South Africa. He doesn't know any life outside of New Zealand and her daughter was so upset that he she had to call a mental health hotline now. She said that she's been bigger her whole life and had been bullied in school for it and now I'm being bullied by immigration. She had a particular issue with the part on the assessment that commented on her previous weight loss attempts and how they were not convinced she could keep it up. she'd lost 22 kilos since moving to New Zealand. The pressure to lose weight since her residency application began has been overwhelming. To be honest, every now and again I lose my shit and just have to keep myself grounded. Dr. Cap Jose, a senior lecturer in Massey University's Institute of Education on fat scholar said that she was right to feel insulted. Weight is not a proxy for health. She said the use of body mass index to measure individuals was completely inappropriate and was without any kind of evidential basis spaces. Paul's a went through the same process in 2010 when her residency application was rejected for the same reason. It took three rounds of medical assessments and appeals for the government to believe palsy was in good health. She is now a New Zealand citizen. BMI is not an indication of past current or future health. She pointed to the All Blacks who no one would consider Oh word but they were but they were classed that on the BMI scale. The bears Swindon hoots says visas expire the end of July because Donovan's line of work is still in demand. They are hopeful renewal of their work visas, the quest to avoid a life in limbo will be pursued through an appeal of the residency decision. So as a as a Canadian, I'm not a citizen yet. I am a permanent residency resident. As a PR they put you through medical assessments like they give you a chest X ray and then you have to have a dog Doctor Look at Yeah, didn't do anything just chatted about the book I was reading. Anyway, I at the time, my BMI was probably 34, maybe, wild guess, really no clue. And it wasn't brought up I looked at for Canada and US to see if there has been restrictions, and none that I could see. So I don't know if this is just a New Zealand thing, hopefully. But you know, you never know, right? You never know. Sure there's other countries, will all countries in the world there probably are other countries that behave like that. But that is honestly, as an immigrant. It is heart droppingly anxiety provoking to think that you're just going to have to leave imagine, you just have to leave the country that you've lived in. I've lived here for 13 years, to leave that country and go back to a country that might not feel like home anymore. So for me, the UK does not feel like home, I feel anxious to be there. And it would be devastating to have to leave a country and to have to leave because of some bullshit reason like being too fat. I mean, for I don't think that that's something that I'm going to have to face. But the folks in New Zealand, what were they would they say a BMI of was it 35 Was automatically flagged, gee, is low wage is yeah, 35 automatically flagged, I mean, shit there, the immigration officials are going to be big here. So who, and you're gonna have to like normal immigration processes. As someone who's who's a British person who's university educated, and doesn't have any mental health or neuro differences to make it make it more difficult to apply for immigration stuff. Actually, that's not true. Whatever I'm able to apply is what I'm trying to say, I've been able to apply for stuff. I haven't applied for my citizenship yet, because it's been stressing me out for years, literally years. So I was like, yeah, that's some mental health stuff. And something's going on there. Anyway, so I was able to do it. And that was really, really difficult to get to fill out those forms. And, you know, because it's such a high stakes thing. So that takes a lot of energy and know how and, and finances and all sorts of stuff. And so cat paws, they had to apply three times, or to apply or like, not apply, but question and the decision that many times how many people would just say, okay, you know, that whole process was so traumatizing. I'm just gonna leave probably a lot. I really can imagine that because, you know, like my sister. She was in Canada. She is a master's educated social worker, which is in high demand in Canada. She made a simple mistake on her immigration papers. They said you've got two weeks to leave, she had to leave. She never came back. She probably could have fought it. But you know, she was she was just like, she's dyspraxia ik she struggles so that's that's like, not dyslexic, but I think she's probably is dyslexic as well she kind of specially struggles with that type of stuff. And she falls over and things like that, you know, but anyway, so it's a privilege to be able to apply in the first place. Nevermind you know, fight it, you have to have a certain certain privileges to be able to do that. It is such a thin centric world This cannot continue we cannot continue treating fat people like this and I would like a big trigger warning for any of these articles I'm picking out the bits where they're not because they have counter argument arguments right a lot of the stuff that I'm you know, I've picked out apart from Dr. decade is so you know, like, Oh, should fat people be allowed to adopt and then half of the half the article is yes, of course that's fucked up. And then the other half is, of course not it's fucked up to replace children with fat people. So you know, trigger warning on that. If you do go and read any of these links. I'm gonna make a post about this on the Instagram so check that out a few days after the episode is out. If you want to share this stuff with your people, if you've enjoyed this episode and appreciate the work that I do for free then consider donating subscribing to me on cofee link is in the bio Do cofee is kind of like Patreon but better. Thank you for listening to this episode. Thank you Susanna for inspiring me with this episode. If there are any episodes that you would like to see, subscribe on cofee and send me a message over there and I'll absolutely do my best to see if I can. I can do that for you. And if you have any questions for the show, same thing. Go and subscribe on cofee and then send me a massage. Yeah, cuz I really like talking about things which are relevant to you and, and hey, take care of yourself this shit. It's fucked up. I'm gonna go and have a sip of my coffee and I don't know, do some fist shaking.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:43

And if you're experienced any of this stuff, then I'm so sorry. You do not deserve this. It is not okay. And I hope that you're able to find solutions even though many people are trying to keep barriers in place for for you and people like you. That's not okay. Things are changing. Alright, well, I wish sooner on the next episode. Thanks for hanging out with me today. I'll see you in a while I'm a gator stay fierce fan saying goodbye.

Episode 161 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast. I am your host, Vinny Welsby. Episode 161, PE in school and the horrific harm fat kids experience. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:27

hello, hello, welcome to this episode, dude. So excited to have you here trigger warning for this episode, we're gonna be talking about the stuff that fat kids experience at school. And you can guess the stuff that you might hear. So if you are not in the right place today to hear some anti fat bias happening to kids, then skip this episode because it's going to be it's going to be full of it.

Unknown Speaker 1:01

Okay, so you lot? You. You Excuse me?

Unknown Speaker 1:12

You're awesome. Oh, my goodness, I cannot believe it. Although I can, although I'm surprised. Why are you so awesome? Excuse me? Excuse me Who let you be so awesome. It's you. You did it. Last week. Last episode I told you about

Unknown Speaker 1:34

the goal that I have for kofi. Kofi is the Patreon type thing. But it's better for creators because they get more more money from it. They don't keep Patreon keeps money whereas Kofi doesn't. Anyway.

Unknown Speaker 1:51

And so. Last week, we were at 10 subscriptions. 10 subscriptions for face for a podcast and $65 hairs in a subscription of value. And so I said, Hey, let's make it the goal that next week, we'd be at 15 subscriptions with $85 a month

Unknown Speaker 2:16

in subscription value. And I was like, I don't think that's going to happen, because I think we went up like one from the week before. But you know, dream away, Vinnie, dream away. And what did you do? What did you do your rascals, you got us to 17 app to active subscriptions.

Unknown Speaker 2:38

And the goal was 15 surpassed it by two amazing and the goal was to get to $85 a month, where 110.

Unknown Speaker 2:50

Get out of here. Ah, if you subscribe to have subscribed to Kofi

Unknown Speaker 2:56

it's five bucks a month. Or you can give me more if you want, or you can just not give me anything at all. But if you've subscribed, thank you so much, you are just a superstar. I really, really, really appreciate the support. And it really makes me motivated to keep doing this work. Because sometimes it can feel like you're talking into a void. And that's you know, you've there's three people listening. But you know, I know that's not true, because I look at their stats and how many people are listening.

Unknown Speaker 3:25

And it's 1000s. And so, yeah, I appreciate that. So

Unknown Speaker 3:30

I'm not even going to make a goal for next time. Okay, let's make it a goal. Let's make it to next week. Let's get to

Unknown Speaker 3:38

this Phil's outrageous 25 subscriptions, 25 subscriptions.

Unknown Speaker 3:45

And $150 active subscription value. I know that doesn't make sense. The numbers eight, eight, the numbers eight numbering there. But let's say 25 optics, subscriptions and $150 subscription value. So the reason why I'm doing this is because it costs money to make the podcast and I have never once monetize the podcast. And it costs I can't remember what the figure is around about 656 $700 per month to make the podcast so if we can get to making enough money just to cover my costs for the podcast. Beautiful. Love it. And I've been doing it for years now when I've never

Unknown Speaker 4:25

covered the costs for it.

Unknown Speaker 4:27

I don't know maybe maybe I should start doing this a long time ago.

Unknown Speaker 4:32

Because I think that you appreciate the information that I share. And if you do if you would consider becoming a subscription, a little subscription for me, or a giant subscription for me.

Unknown Speaker 4:46

I don't know what classes are giant subscription like $20 a month I would just ship my pants if someone did to $20 a month. No one's done it $20 A month so far. If you do $20 A month

Unknown Speaker 4:57

I will do a pope okay, I'm just gonna do pu R

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Alright. Anyway, let's talk stop talking about this malarkey. And let's talk about other Malarkey, which is fat stuff. Oh, actually correction on

Unknown Speaker 5:13

correction on an old episode, not an old episode, you know that we go via episodes. Okay, so episode 156.

Unknown Speaker 5:23

Elizabeth sent me an email. Thank you, Elizabeth. Saying hi Minnie, is what you said about Sid starting at one hours 14 of 156, I think means correct to fat, paraphrase fat people who don't smoke have the same health outcomes as a thin person who does. And I was like, Well, did I say that? And so I went back and listened. And I don't exactly say that. And obviously that was a, that was a slip of the tongue. That was a mouth typo. I reply to Elizabeth, you're absolutely right. That was an incorrect word on my part, it shouldn't have been thin people who don't smoke. So just to clarify fat people who don't smoke have pretty much the same outcomes as thin people who don't smoke, not thin, thin people who do smoke, talking about the outcomes of people who are fat. And if they engage in health promoting behaviors, like not smoking.

Unknown Speaker 6:23

There's not that much difference. In fact, it's a teeny tiny little difference between outcomes. And it was mortality.

Unknown Speaker 6:32

Yeah, it was mortality. Yeah. Not morbidity, mortality.

Unknown Speaker 6:37

Yeah. So, correction there. Hopefully, people heard what I was trying to say. With that little couple of letters that I missed out. Do not Don't, don't smoke. Anyway, so today's episode is inspired by fat Doctor UK. Dr. Asha. He is amazing. Love.

Unknown Speaker 7:03

Dr. Asha. Let's go back to the beginning. So Dr. Asha, posted on Dr. Ashes pronouns he they on the Instagrams, I love that Asha posts what they put on Twitter because I'm not on Twitter on Instagram. I really appreciate it when people do that. So I'm gonna read this. And this inspired me I was like, I need to talk about PII at school. Okay, so from Asha, my son just found out that the whole school cross country event is optional. He has been stressing about it for weeks, can anyone relate?

Unknown Speaker 7:41

I can trace a lot of my body and self esteem issues back to school, be eating teachers are a bit like doctors, I think most of them aren't knowledgeable enough to understand that being able to run long distances or easily managed 20 Press ups, or play a sport well, has literally nothing to do with a person's physical health. They teach kids that lack of sporting ability makes them inferior. And kids pick up on this. I'm no good at sports equal i equals, I'm a less worthy human being. I'm no good at running equals, I'm not healthy. I'm slower than everyone else equals, I'm less deserving of respect, dignity and kindness. My son remembers a time his class were made up made to run to K every few weeks in PE. And his teacher used to tell them that anyone who took longer than 10 minutes was unfit. My son was usually the slowest. And the teacher would use him as an example of what not to be like, true story. Doctors are similar. If you don't look healthy, then you can't be healthy, whatever that means. If you don't look healthy, then you're less worthy or wealthy respect or care, you're to blame for your own symptoms. And then you can be cured by changing the way you look. Because that's all being fat is you get that right. BMI. BMI is literally a measure of body size. It's not even a measure of body fat. It doesn't predict any type of health example 30% People with a BMI of up to 30 are metabolically healthy, and 30% with a BMI of 20 to 25 are not. Whilst the incidence of certain diseases are disproportionately higher in people with larger bodies. This is just as likely to be due to poor medical care and neglect as it is anything else. There's no evidence that fat is inherently bad for you. Please don't embarrass yourselves by mentioning this visceral fat fat around the heart or weight on the joints because I can and if I can be bothered will school you. There's no evidence that weight loss improves morbidity or mortality. Ultimately, this all comes down to bias and discrimination society functions when one group is considered morally physically intellectually superior to another. The superior group gets to hoard the wealth, resources and power by oppressing the

Unknown Speaker 10:00

inferior group. So next time a PE teacher decides to shit on a kid for being slow. Remember, it's just because they wish to continue to benefit from privilege. And in order to do this, they have to play their role in oppressing others. Same goes for doctors. It's a power thing, not a health thing. Yes, times a billion. And then people came into the comments of that post and, and said, yep, yep, yep, this is my experience, blah, buddy, bloop, bloop, I'm gonna put the link for that post in the notes. If you want to share your story, or if you want to say hi to Asher or whatever. Ash is awesome. And I wondered, What are your experiences and so something that I love doing you were doing love doing you I do love doing you are what I love doing is asking you lot you you are a whole lot about what your experiences are. So did some questions, do some polls, and let's talk about that. But also, I want to weave in some other stuff, studies, articles, etc. So let's start with this piece from where is it from the Atlantic, the Atlantic, hey, little tip for you yet, if you ever have an article that's behind a paywall, save this address this web address in your browser and use it, it will bring up that thing from behind the paywall. That address is archive dot p h, archive dot p h, you can archive a WebPart page and also you can bring up archived and if if the posts

Unknown Speaker 11:51

if they are from a well known source, they're going to be archived multiple times over so if someone has made a change to an article, you know, four Oh 10, then they would have the three o'clock and they'll have the five o'clock version, etc. For some smaller sites, it's more like every few days, but it's like an automatic thing. They're scraping the web as some might not be on there because there might be some really

Unknown Speaker 12:18

obscure sources. But anyway, things like the Atlantic,

Unknown Speaker 12:23

which I had reached my maximum free articles archive.ph Thank me later. Okay, so from the Atlantic gym class is so bad kids are skipping school to avoid it.

Unknown Speaker 12:36

Not only just PE do little to improve physical fitness, but it can also lead to truancy and other disciplinary problems. So here's a quote from the article. I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read. I'm gonna read it. I'm gonna read by the way, trigger warning. A lot of the sources I mentioning will have the Oh words. A lot of them are like,

Unknown Speaker 12:56

PS bad, but I mean, we have to make the fat kids thin. So

Unknown Speaker 13:02

walking away, can we do it to shame them?

Unknown Speaker 13:06

So just Just a warning about those. So not only does PE do let it away? Yeah, I've already read that. But it's almost too easy to satirize physical education better known by its eye roll inducing abbreviation PE, from clueless to Superbad to Spider Man homecoming, parodies of gym class Class class are a pop culture, darling. Perhaps that's because they speak to one of America's fundamental truths. For many kids. Pe is terrible. I think this is really talking about I think PE can be terrible for kids of all sizes, right? Obviously, I'm speaking as a fat person, but I'm sure I remember. Yes, I remember my so I hang out when I was in secondary school. My my, my group were three other people, three of a three other people, three of the girls. And they were all thin, and they were all bad at PE and they didn't like it. So you know, like we were the quote nerds because we will build up a ye. Anyway. So a recent working paper focused on a massive PN PE initiative in Texas captures this reality analyzing data out of the states Texas fitness now program. So there's a program that was a program called Texas fitness now sounds horrific, a $37 million endeavor to improve middle schoolers fitness, academic achievement and behavior by requiring them to participate in PE every day.

Unknown Speaker 14:43

The researchers concluded that the daily mandate didn't have any positive impact on kids health or educational outcome. On the contrary, they found that the program which ran from 2007 to 2011 actually had detrimental effects correlating with

Unknown Speaker 15:00

uptick in discipline and absence rates.

Unknown Speaker 15:04

As for why this particular PE program was counterproductive, and Lisa Peckham, an economics professor at professor at Miami University in Ohio, who co authored a study points to bullying as one potential reason, students are more likely to be bullied in middle school than at any other point in their academic careers and PE presents a particular right opportunity for abuse whether because the class forces them to use a locker room whether we're adult supervision is limited because it facilitates a teasing of fats or unathletic kids, they're using the O word, I'm going to add them as I speak. The paper posits that by subjecting participants namely low income kids as the fitness now grants targeted campuses serving disadvantaged populations to the circumstances on a daily basis, the PE requirements made students less inclined to go to school. Quote, these adolescents were not enjoying the daily PE requirements no shit Sherlock, and would have rather skipped school or high IQ suggests packer who as an econ Economist has focused her research on the outcomes of health programs. The fitness now program required that students participate in at least 30 minutes of physical education every school day, schools that took part in the in the grant received $10,000 on average to help improve their PE programs by adding classes, for example, or hiring coaches and fitness instructors. They also use the money to purchase equipment such as stop watches, jump ropes and free weights. According to the study, the program resulted in a roughly 16% increase in the number of disciplinary actions for each student. The study also found that the proportion of misbehaving students went up by more than 7%. The findings of the study which has yet to be published in an academic journal it has been now are limited in scope. Still, the new paper adds much needed nuance to the body of research that has evaluated the effectiveness of various approaches to PE complicating the findings of studies that generally assert the importance of school policies that encourage regular opportunities for fraudulent physical education. Justin Cahill, a veteran PE educator who's taught at an Atlanta area private school for the past decade or so stresses that is the typical application of Physical Education rather than the fundamental concept that results in bad outcomes. Until the past few years PE classes tended to focus on kids acquisition of skills such as dribbling a ball and the fulfillment of universal benchmarks, such as the ability to run around a track three times within some specific amount of time. This approach he says breed stagnation and disinterest the kids are like yeah, this is ridiculous. I can also as Peckham, Peckham study suggest breed resentment. After all, in this old school version of PE kids, certain kids are struggle are bound to struggle. Cahill maintains that many PE programs are high caliber success successful in both engaging students and producing positive health and wellness outcomes. Echoing the findings outlined in Cole's book he says that positive results are contingent on multifaceted and holistic design, what he defines as programs that inspire kids to exercise without realizing that exercising that simply ensure they're constantly moving during recess frequent brain checks to get out the sillies morning jobs and yes, regular PE class positive results are also contingent on experienced empathetic PE teachers, those who know how know to modify a curriculum to meet certain students needs, and to give kudos to that child who can't run around the track. After all, research shows that people can get a good workout even when walking. And the more important thing is to create a healthy relationship with exercise that can last for decades. So what are your experiences? I asked the question on the Instagrams. Tell me your experiences as a fat kid was PE fun, or for sometimes good, sometimes bad. Did you experience anti fat bias? So this is what you said My experience is a fat kid doing PE at school. You got the little question box and then you got the longer one. So I'm just going to read the little question box. short answers then the longer one so

Unknown Speaker 19:28

my experience is a fat kid doing PE at school. These are your responses. First one awful, I dreaded it. Presidential physical fitness award. mandatory participation. I sucked at all of it scarring. I wonder if it's the president. Is there anything in America the president fit physical fitness award?

Unknown Speaker 19:51

In year seven, my PE teacher pulled me aside and said I was fat and needed to lose weight. That sounds nice surprise by everyone, including two

Unknown Speaker 20:00

He was when I was good at stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna talk about later but there's a survey. And they they surveyed study they surveyed PE teachers and they PE teachers presumed that fat kids would not could not be physically fit or active. I mean, no surprise that hate laughed at when changing, running coming last. Just awful. I adore PE it didn't even occur to me or others about being fat until teenage years, then I hated it. Yeah, that's interesting to think about because I feel like up until secondary school, I guess, high school is what North American say. When you're 1111 to 16.

Unknown Speaker 20:48

Up until that point, we didn't have like PE lessons. And I was really physically active. I would roller skate everywhere. I would bike everywhere I would bike with my roller skates on with a rope around the with a skipping rope around the handlebars to pretend it was a horse. You know how you would steer a horse

Unknown Speaker 21:17

to think what was doing quite the sight. And it wasn't I had like a one pedal bike so so this

Unknown Speaker 21:25

little fat kid cycling around one pedal bike with roller skates on with a rope around

Unknown Speaker 21:31

the front, like an old recliner, I would recline in the seat like you would if you were on a horse, like cycling around the council estate.

Unknown Speaker 21:44

And we'd have like skating competitions with the other kids and like literally I'd go to roller where my roller skates to church. I remember having lots of fun in

Unknown Speaker 21:56

break time recess,

Unknown Speaker 22:00

playing games with all of the other kids and playing imaginary horses with my friend Frankie. It was fun. And I would just be just having fun, whatever, you know, just as a kid, and then it was pee in the bed and you went to secondary school, and then all of a sudden, all of that stopped, there was no fun. It was you were doing this shit. And then you better be good at it. And if not, then you're a bad person. And all of a sudden it was like, Oh, I'm not good at sport. When I was I was athletic. I was fat. And I was a great roller skater, a great cyclist. And because we didn't have a family car, we'd go grocery shopping and carry the groceries back on our handlebars between my mum and my sister. And so I was probably strong too. But none of that counted because then you know, could I run the 1500? D? Do you have the bet? Yeah, many people will shudder at that phrase, the 1500. Or you might you might have called it something else. But 1500 meters run that around the track, I think it was 3.4 or five times around the track. And it just became awful until sixth form. So in the UK, Sixth Form is when you are 17 and 18. So in sixth form,

Unknown Speaker 23:18

pe changed unless you took it as a subject, you only take three subjects. And then then they're like, Oh, well, you can do PE if you want and so the PE was you can choose what you want to do. And so you can either go bowling at the local bowling alley in the city center, or you can there's a gym, you can go to the gym, like a gym at some gym in the city center, which was really cool. And then you could go swimming and I think there's something else. But I chose bowling, guess what I became a really good bowler and we'd have a lovely, we'd have a lovely afternoon out we'd go downtown from our school, it'd be like a half an hour walk or something maybe less. And then we'd go and get a McDonald's I'd get a happy meal from McDonald's and I'd get chicken nuggets and then we'd go bowling for a couple of hours and then we'd go home and that was our PE wasn't that nice?

Unknown Speaker 24:08

And you know, we have fun. Like that's what P should be like and I know that you know this. I don't know if you can do that in all places, but that's when we were technically adults. And so we're allowed to go you know, leave the school and all that type of stuff.

Unknown Speaker 24:23

Anyway, let me carry on with your stories. That's just my experience. And you bet you bet your bottom dollar I was scarred from that five years of of brutal awful shit. Yeah. Okay, so the freakin PE government testing we do in the US is the worst. I presume that some type of thing that you have to make. In that article I was reading you have to run around a track in a certain amount of time. Like I bet you there's other things whereas we we had to run distances. Why was it running? That's so weird, like this random thing that humans don't really do.

Unknown Speaker 25:00

Do run like we don't need to unless we're gonna go fucking catch prey we don't you know

Unknown Speaker 25:08

we don't need to run as a dang is so bizarre

Unknown Speaker 25:14

yeah like how good are you at running like what's its

Unknown Speaker 25:21

anyway

Unknown Speaker 25:23

I brought it was my least favorite class because it was my hardest subject sometimes good sometimes bad I think that's the thing is sometimes like if there was a sport that was something that you enjoyed then it could be okay like I really like badminton. But there was obviously other sports I didn't like. And so badminton would be could be, you know, fun. I really want to play badminton now as an adult, because I was good as it good at it as a kid anyway, I broke my foot and got out of gymnastics and my PE teacher told everyone I was faking how fun even with a doctor's note, he said I just wanted to get out of the course that was too hard for me. What an absolute bellend horrific. It one person just said. Yeah. And next person said number one, absolutely horrific. Yes. From getting changed in the communal changing rooms to teachers shouting you at you all the time. Honestly, I have hated exercise ever since it sucked. fitness tests were the worst, especially the body fat pinch measurements, made us run laps for 10 minutes and grade was based on how many you did fit kids set the curve. Yeah, remember the beep test? Do you remember the beep test that test where you would it would start a beep and you'd have to run to the other side of the hall. And then by the end of the beep and then the beep will slowly get faster and faster and faster. And it was literally like you were watching. You know who was the first one to get out? And you desperately did not want to be the first one to get out. But guess what? For me I'm probably was one of the first if not the first.

Unknown Speaker 27:02

It was traumatic bullied and mocked relentlessly while the PE teacher did nothing awful. When drama games was added to sports day I was thrilled drama games. What the heck is I don't know what it is. But it sounds like it might be fun.

Unknown Speaker 27:18

Always picked last just confirmed the sense of being the other and isolated. I was picked up I was picked last on teams. It was humiliating even more than the movies show it to be why the fuck are we letting kids pick the teams? Why is the teacher not just saying Okay everyone, one to 10 is Team One everyone you know what?

Unknown Speaker 27:45

I mean, it would make good TV show you know when you watch it on ripples drag race and they're picking teams and you know, it's scandalous and Oh, who's picked laws? And obviously it's not very nice. But why are we doing it to kids? What the heck is so outrageous and yes, I experienced that too awful humiliating, dreaded each time. The gym teacher making all of the other kids clap when I finally finished the mile run. Or worse, making the fast kid run the last few laps with me. Oh, yeah, yes, I remember that too. That happened in my school to like being like calm give a hand for the people who were who were last like they're really trying like fuck off. Let's let's make a focus on the people who are not as fast, though. Great idea. Presidential Fitness fitness testing BS thing. He was the worst.

Unknown Speaker 28:39

I have I also have a physical disability. So it was doubly awful.

Unknown Speaker 28:44

Oh my god, did I ever have the worst experience I could go on and on and on about that all the anti fat bias and overall feelings of shame. But the worst part was when we would do lap runs, I would usually be the last because I felt uncomfortable reading in front of others and would go slow. And all the thinner kids would watch me and cheer and clap for me as I did the final lap. It was extremely embarrassing. I feel so uncomfortable just thinking about it. Whoo hoo. You fat bitch way to take forever is all I can imagine them thinking I still have poor relationship with physical activity because of my experiences. Here's the other thing that I think about it that this person is saying they'll feel uncomfortable and didn't want to run fast. That was my experience too. I didn't want to run fast because I had giant old big old Teddy's TIG ol bitties I had some TIG ol bitties and I had did not have a bra that was supportive. I had a bra that was fished out of some bargain bin at a charity shop. That was not an appropriate for anything, you know.

Unknown Speaker 29:48

It did not and so if you ran your tests would be jumping all over the place. And so you'd have to just like slowly jog. Because of that because you know as a child, there's no

Unknown Speaker 30:00

worry, you would run in front of a class with your tits like flopping into your face. Would you know? And I'm presuming a lot of the smaller kids, smaller body kids didn't have those Tigo biddies tag our bad eight, right?

Unknown Speaker 30:20

PE was horrible starting in grade four when they made us change our clothes. And dressing in front of peers is where it all started. As I got older, I was slower than all my other kids, all the other kids so I was picked last for teams and I stopped trying it was better to barely pass and to humiliate myself. I remember in grade 12 explaining to a friend hockey player. Why some kids in class don't participate when they're forced to do team sports and it never occurred to him that people would rather be seen as lazy than humiliate themselves and team sports. Yeah, yeah. It's like a way to protect yourself. Honestly, I'm not sure if I was considered to be fat by my classmates, I was most definitely taller because I grew earlier. And I was much heavier than most girls in my school, let alone my class I excelled and B. I was always picked early in choosing teams because I was known for being skilled athletically. Overall, it was fun for me and my favorite class. The only bad thing was when I did distance running, I was always one of the last to finish the mile. It's easy to run when you're 13 years old. I was about what I actually experienced more discrimination now than I did when I was a kid. But when it comes to any kind of athletic anything, I could talk about this topic for days, I went to a very expensive Catholic school. Our Jim tree teacher treated any of the plus size girls terribly. He would call us chirps or chubby instead of our names. If he called us by our name, it would be the name of one or the other plus size girls and when we corrected him he'd say all you chubby girls look the same. He would make a stand in the middle of this of a circle while doing warm up. So our entire class would make sure we weren't slacking off. Jesus Christ. We used to play this game similar to dodgeball, if you were hit by the ball, you had to sit on the line in the middle of the gym, then any member from either team could risk it by grabbing your hand and pulling you off the line. Then you'd be on that team. No one ever grabbed my hand. One time someone hit me so hard in the face that my with a bomb my glasses broke. I can't see without them. I was crying and asked the teacher. If I could go to the nurse. He told me no. I said I wasn't hit on purpose. I just take it up. I just take up so much space like couldn't be missed. During physical fitness tests he would have the most popular boys and girls help him write down everyone's height and weight that he could loudly call across the gym to them. Jesus fucking when it when it was any of the plus size girls weights, he would shout it out extra loud and ask if they needed help writing a number that Hi. My mom used to complain to the school and he'd say he wasn't a bully. I always had Jim first or last period so my mom started bringing me into school late or pulling me out early so I'd miss Jim. This was seventh and eighth grade. I'm 39 now and people I went to elementary school still talk about the trauma that teacher caused us

Unknown Speaker 33:20

wow that is straight up abuse. That's abuse.

Unknown Speaker 33:26

Okay, last story. My experience was mixed I was always the slowest last but I was enthusiastic and like team sports my PE teacher loved me but this led to me being put been put in the top set for PE with another teacher which I hated for can completely humiliated when I told the teacher I didn't want to be in the class because it made me feel bad. She said I just need to try harder. Also, I just think PE and sport are taught so badly and affected my relationship with exercise for so long. I just left school thinking I was bad at everything and the only people who looked who looked good

Unknown Speaker 34:01

at sport carried on as that were good at sport carried on as adults. Now I do

Unknown Speaker 34:07

martial arts and lift weights and look an over lockdown. I did a running out which I never thought I do. But I still have a real lingering insecurity around it all that I think could have been lessened if I was taught better in school. Yeah, that's my thoughts. Exactly. Is that that clearly? We?

Unknown Speaker 34:28

Clearly a lot of people enjoy games and fun and doing you know, right in there right riding their bike with roller skates in a an A thing to like a horse. You know, clearly a lot of people do that. Some people don't some people just is not just another thing. That's fine too. But it's the same with the way that we talk about food. And the way that we fuck goods up around food being like you eat you will eat a motherfucking vegetable or you're not going to get

Unknown Speaker 35:00

The quote, good food you're gonna eat the, quote disgusting food, which is apparently good for you. And it's like Way to ruin vegetables.

Unknown Speaker 35:10

When you know, we could adjust,

Unknown Speaker 35:14

just being chill about it and let people eat the variety of foods that naturally they probably inclined to, obviously, that's not everyone's experience, because we have neurodiversity and you know, access and blah, blah, blah, but, you know, on the whole

Unknown Speaker 35:32

they're just making a thing because they're so terrified about fatness, you know, they're so terrified that if we don't have PE, then the O word epidemic is just gonna get out of control. And, and the fitness is this, this thing that

Unknown Speaker 35:49

has to be so, like, so stringent and so

Unknown Speaker 35:56

not fun?

Unknown Speaker 35:59

Why is it that the other teachers can get creative? And you know, you can have different ways to be taught? Not all, you know, not all other teachers, there's probably lots of teachers that are not great teachers, obviously. But the good teachers were the ones that made, you know, different subjects fun and thought outside the box. And yeah, teachers are not paid enough. But I would think, wouldn't it just be more fun to have engaged students? Instead of being like, Oh, we're doing the 1500 Rand a day and all the students being like, oh,

Unknown Speaker 36:30

you know, versus we're gonna play a game. We're gonna do this thing and see how it goes. Let's have some fun. Or when I think about, you know, I go roller skating, right? We're gonna roller skating and we play games. We play games.

Unknown Speaker 36:48

So when I go on, runners get in. Last time I went, we played games. We did this obstacle course when I say obstacle course, it's not that it's not this bad, scary things. It was literally, like, roll around on the floor, like, weave in and out of these things. And, you know, have fun. And then then we played a kick in a kick in a empty milk carton around. And then we played a game where we we closed our eyes, and then we

Unknown Speaker 37:19

we tried to catch the other people where their eyes closed. And if you caught someone, they you held hands and it made like one big long snake thing.

Unknown Speaker 37:30

I mean,

Unknown Speaker 37:32

versus okay, you're on roller skates. Now you have to like run and do 50 laps in 10 seconds. And if you don't, you're a piece of shit. I mean, hello, well, who would ever want to go roller skating if that was the case, but because we're all just getting it is fun for a lot of people because it's not done in a PE class.

Unknown Speaker 37:47

People have nicer fonder memories of Roller Skating, right? Because you probably did roller skating just at home, and you probably weren't traumatized by a PE teacher say, Hey, you're fat loser. You're too slow. You just trundled around the neighborhood and fell over and maybe that traumatized you but probably you weren't traumatized by an educator.

Unknown Speaker 38:11

Okay, so look at let's look at this piece from Katie German who says food education programs that focus on fatness do more harm than good.

Unknown Speaker 38:21

And so I'm talking about

Unknown Speaker 38:25

what else we've learned from school. And a lot of what people learn is that they need to eat vegetables and if they vegetables and they'll magically be thin as well as running around.

Unknown Speaker 38:39

Okay, so Katie says I work for a food food security organization. And not long ago, I was invited to the launch of it in initiative meant to get kids excited about growing and eating fresh fruits and veggies. I sat in a room with 50 other community leaders eager to talk about food literacy programs for students. When the facilitator ASEAN inevitable how do we work together to address the Oh word epidemic in our city? I let out a sigh. As a so called Oh, fat person. I found myself again sitting with people strategizing ways to prevent kids from having a body that looks like mine. As though a fat body is a tragedy, a societal burden, a source of shame. In the field of food security, we are constantly asked to frame what we do as an as fat prevention work. grant applications include requests that applicants collect biometric data as part of their food program, cooking workshops require participants to weigh themselves.

Unknown Speaker 39:43

Shops required petitioners to weigh themselves. Jesus

Unknown Speaker 39:51

can you imagine?

Unknown Speaker 39:54

When I say good

Unknown Speaker 39:59

I'm good.

Unknown Speaker 40:02

because if you learn to cook and you've learned to cook and you don't become magically thin then the cooking lesson was a failure. What what

Unknown Speaker 40:14

students are asked to clarify their family's favorite foods is quote bad or good

Unknown Speaker 40:20

as part of food literacy education oh you know that that's affecting people of color more than it is white kids because you know that the foods that are seen as quote ethnic are labeled bad this fucking array says, Oh, wow, this is fucked.

Unknown Speaker 40:42

When a food program is built around Oh, word prevention is likely doing more harm than good. There is a dangerous assumption that fat people just need to learn more about the risks of being fat and then they will make their body smaller. Yeah, that's the thing is all of this like food education. It's it's so patronizing. Is like high fat people. Have you ever heard of spinach? Who you Oh thank God I'm here if you eat this spinach you'll be fin sloppy in blocks of Lord Oh you didn't know that blocks have lied about like oh, did you ever hear that? It's bad to be fat. You have to thank God I'm is 30 person to save you?

Unknown Speaker 41:33

Yea yea yea.

Unknown Speaker 41:40

Growing up fat people talked about my body all the time my portion sizes were monitored and I was encouraged to skip meals. One teacher asked us to measure our BMI and proceeded to plot our body sizes and our class chart.

Unknown Speaker 41:56

What

Unknown Speaker 41:57

constant conversations about fatness did not shrink my body. But the experience was devastating to my mental health. I was not alone. According to a US study canvassing 14,000 high school students, those who have classroom sizes classified themselves as Oh word were at a greater risk for depression and suicide attempts than teens who didn't consider themselves heavy.

Unknown Speaker 42:25

That's the thing I was reading this.

Unknown Speaker 42:28

So people are doing work in Ireland to try and stop this, this program. This this program in Ireland where it's like Let's expose kids to to to vegetables. Because if we expose them to vegetables, then they're going to love vegetables. And so I can't remember the name of the program. But basically what they do is they like boil vegetables within an inch of their life and then put them in this nasty packaging and then send cold slimy, boiled within an inch of the life vegetables to school kids. And then the kids have to do this program where they're forced to eat those packages of slimy overcooked mushy, cold food. I mean, you might as well put a fucking bag of cockroaches out and be like, here it is. It's gonna have the same amount of traumatising. Do you think kids are gonna be like, Oh,

Unknown Speaker 43:30

give me some fuckin spinach that time I had it at school. Oh, change my world? No, they're gonna be like that shit is nasty.

Unknown Speaker 43:42

But I if I don't eat it, I'm a bad person. I know. Now I'm on Alvie. Like,

Unknown Speaker 43:49

the people who are creating these programs not like

Unknown Speaker 43:53

do they not? I don't understand how their brain doesn't recognize that. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm like trying to compute it. I'm just thinking, like,

Unknown Speaker 44:04

what do they think is going to happen? So I had an experience in primary school where things were a lot better around like being exposed to different types of fruits and vegetables that I hadn't seen before. So we've got like passion fruit, and I think there was like mango and things like that. I remember that passion fruit so clearly because first the teacher cut these things in half, then put them on the table and then asked us to draw them. I was showing his passion for your fruit and I was just salivate Tang, looking at it, smelling it talking about making it a tease. Oh my god that teacher was

Unknown Speaker 44:44

like and so we drew the fruits. And then I took I took that passion fruit and I held it in my hand. And I smelt it. And I knew that I shouldn't because you know,

Unknown Speaker 44:56

the kids were drawing it and I shouldn't be touching it yet. I stopped

Unknown Speaker 45:00

My finger in the seeds, I licked it, and the teacher saw and was like, oh, not yet. We're gonna taste in a minute. Obviously, they don't want some snotty nose. Kids stick their finger in the frickin fruit. But she wasn't telling me off or doing it. She was telling me, you know, like, oh, let's wait in a second. And do you think that I think that passionfruit is discussions could disgusting.

Unknown Speaker 45:22

No, no. What about the other things that I tried that day? I can't remember. But what are the chances that that stuff is is scarred onto my brain as these disgusting things? No, because I don't remember them. It was just a curious thing. You know, it was just a no shame, just a curious thing. Like, that's how you teach about food. That's how you know I was low income. I wasn't exposed to a passion for it before. And so that was how an education moment around these things

Unknown Speaker 45:54

can be done versus I'm a good person to eat that passion fruit. There was none of that around what we were doing. It was just like, here's some weird looking things you might not have seen before.

Unknown Speaker 46:07

I think that's the way that's the way to do it and making it fun and making a cute like, and drawing the thing that was really cool.

Unknown Speaker 46:15

And I don't remember anyone

Unknown Speaker 46:19

being forced to eat anything. And I was a picky eater, and I had been forced to eat things. I had a very dominant dad. I remember him forcing me to eat brussel sprouts and vomiting from it and him just being like, you're going to eat that Brussel sprout. And do you like brussel sprouts? I mean, no, not for me. Thank you. You know, I had brussel sprouts. And there were I had brussel sprouts in a restaurant where they were fried with parmesan cheese, lemon and something else. Other time I was vegetarian, but they also had bacon, but I didn't eat the bacon bits. And it was like this delicious snack. Mm hmm. Anyway, question, what other anti fat experiences did you have at school specifically school sponsored? So from teachers or educators? Did you learn that fat bodies were cool? What did you learn the opposite? Were you told to eat vegetables in a way that cause you to start dieting? What did you learn about your bodies and other fat bodies from your education as a kid

Unknown Speaker 47:24

I used to go dancing. I was good. Then I kept then I kept being told that I was too fat and should lose weight. At that point. They humiliated me in front of the class saying I was huge and I had to leave or lose weight. I left I left the exercise I loved because I was shamed, humiliated and told I was less than yes to dancing. I've heard so many dancers tell me that that was a big part of when they started become disordered around food and body. My friend she just saying he thought that fat people were lazy and didn't kick take care of themselves

Unknown Speaker 47:58

was always sent with a much sent with a much healthier lunch and the other kids because my parents slash I wanted to lose weight weight which led to a lot of surprised comments from peers and also lots of Binging at night and

Unknown Speaker 48:12

having a head of year in a super fat body did actually help nobody did in dead in her earshot I think they probably were saying dare to say anything.

Unknown Speaker 48:23

My sixth grade teacher talking about her Jean size and that she will never let herself get above double digits gave me an eating disorder because being fat is bad UK size 12 But my teens and I was told I was Oh word constantly ridicule from boys. I teach I didn't even have classes with gave my mum a diet book at the parent teacher conference.

Unknown Speaker 48:50

Ah

Unknown Speaker 48:53

chin that you were so rapidly anti fat and pro diet that you go out of your way as a busy job to go and give another

Unknown Speaker 49:04

kid that is not even your kid. Their parents attire puck.

Unknown Speaker 49:11

I hope that teacher has seen the error of their ways. And is now like oh I fucked up. That is fucked up.

Unknown Speaker 49:21

Dance unit teacher always paired me with one of the Fat Boys cool but no coincidence.

Unknown Speaker 49:28

costumes for plays always bad if we had to match fat shame and needing longer sash. Yeah, once without any consent and 11 some older students came and randomly selected us to get weighed.

Unknown Speaker 49:41

I was asked it was asked to see if we could buy clothes at the store or whether we're handmade based on were handmade based on way. We were 11 can consent to participate or not. We were forced parents were not informed trauma. So I think the kids were doing some project about color

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Those are the older kids were doing a project on clothes and they just came and weighed these 11 year olds. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 50:06

wait.

Unknown Speaker 50:08

First of all, it's got to do with clothes. I mean measurements, but still then you shouldn't be doing that. That's fucked up.

Unknown Speaker 50:15

A 40 Hour Famine was encouraged for fundraising. My Edie loved it. Right?

Unknown Speaker 50:23

Fuck. I bet you that was a religious school

Unknown Speaker 50:27

for our family in cheese fought the fuck.

Unknown Speaker 50:33

I went to a uniform school and the schools schools buttoned down did not fit me. Yeah, I had we, you know, the in the UK or the schools a uniform. I think almost all of them I don't think any would not be uniform.

Unknown Speaker 50:45

And luckily, what they did is that you would by the school would have a color of the blazer. And so your blazer would be black or, or blue or maybe like a ready brown color, you know, normal things. And then you would just sew the logo on to the pocket. But still, you had to find children dress sizes, and I sized out of the children's sizes and had to get adult suits and my mum was very pressed about it because we were poor.

Unknown Speaker 51:14

I kept getting to detention for wearing the same color shirt. My parents got me. That's the person whose uniform didn't fit for fuck sake. Yeah, I remember I remember. I remember there was there was one girl who was he was fatter than me and she was wearing a shirt which wasn't uniform. It was still a white shirt, but she would get in trouble for it. But it was a shirt that fucking fit her. Oh.

Unknown Speaker 51:40

When I tried wearing the uniform shirt, and it had a gap button gap and I got detention for exposing my bra.

Unknown Speaker 51:46

My grade depended on another kid using calipers to measure my waist fat funks sake.

Unknown Speaker 51:54

Talked about diets with my teachers. My Ed reader cold in high school. I was approached by a fourth grade teacher, school nurse about curriculum telling kids processed foods cause fatness heart disease and diabetes. And would this upset a student in the class with diabetes? I was asked not to ask her not to teach it at all but was not heard. Oh, okay. I was just approach okay. Are they are okay, so this person is a school nurse. And then a fourth grade teacher asked about curriculum about telling kids that processed food is bad. But she taught it anyway.

Unknown Speaker 52:35

My health class in high school taught me how to make a food journal. Okay. That's no good. I had to write down everything in a week including the calories Oh, and then the health gym teacher looked over it and talk to each kid about it. I felt extreme guilt for eating food because I was bigger. So I lied and surprising my Ed. I obsessively tracked everything i that is now in my middle school, they had some specialists come in and do a whole presentation on EDS I suppose they were trying, but they only talked about the main kinds not the Restrict binge cycle. And this person said main kinds in quotation marks the main the main kinds, quote, main kinds the most prevalent eating disorders happen in fat people. So

Unknown Speaker 53:25

okay, so I suppose they were trying but they only talk about the main kinds, not the Restrict binge cycle. This is in the 90s when they talked about body dysmorphia. They talked about how, quote girls were starving would look in the mirror and see a fat girl so they they keep on not eating. Isn't that awful? And I remember thinking, Well, I'm fat. So that doesn't apply to me guess I don't have any eating disorder. Spoiler alert. I hated my body and was definitely restricting by that point. I developed a full blown ed by the time I left high school. Yeah, that's the thing is when we were growing up as a we like we're all the same age. But when I was growing up, the eating disorder was always typical. Anorexia, right, anorexia nervosa, you'd think eating disorder is a thin person. And no way would a fat person have an eating disorder. But if they did, I mean, a restrictive eating disorder. They had an eating disorder, you know that they had a binge eating disorder. That was the only way a fat person can have an eating disorder. And obviously, there's nothing wrong if you I mean, if you have an eating disorder, obviously, it's not helpful for you for you, but there's nothing wrong, like you're not a better eating disorder person. However, if you have a restrictive one, or if you have

Unknown Speaker 54:39

a binging disorder, by the way, binge eating is actually a restrictive eating disorder because that's what you're doing is restricting and then the natural consequences binging

Unknown Speaker 54:49

Yeah, so a restricted fully just restrictive eating disorder is not quote better, or you're not doing better at the IDI or, or it doesn't

Unknown Speaker 55:00

mean that you're not as sick if you don't have a restrictive eating disorder, or if you're in a big body are Alright, so let's look at this, this this study, okay? It's called anti fat bias in secondary school teachers are physical education teachers more biased than mathematics, mathematics teachers. So this was done in I think 2020. So I'm gonna give you the introduction here of what they're looking at. So basically our maths teachers, or as you'd say, North America math with no s. Now it's not wrong, it's maths,

Unknown Speaker 55:37

math, maths teachers,

Unknown Speaker 55:41

are they more biased than

Unknown Speaker 55:43

PE teachers?

Unknown Speaker 55:49

In spite of the increase in incidence of fatness in children and adolescents,

Unknown Speaker 55:56

there does not appear to be an increase in social acceptance of young people who are fat.

Unknown Speaker 56:04

See how see how

Unknown Speaker 56:08

a study who is trying to do well starts with something which is stigmatizing.

Unknown Speaker 56:17

On the contrary, these young people are frequently subjected to situations of discrimination due to their appearance. So So almost all of these state statements that that I'm reading are linked to then two studies. I'm not going to read out this name of the study because if you want to go and see name of all of these studies, because there's like a 50 billion, if you want to go see all the links to all of these statements, then you can go to the one study, which is what I'm reading. While the stigmatization of young people who are fat is common in many environments. This is particularly prevalent in schools. In fact, both students and teachers believe that bullying for weight reasons is the most common form of bullying experienced by young people in schools, students, peers and the most frequent perpetrator or perpetrators of weight based teasing and bullying at school. However, teachers are not exempt from involvement in these processes of victimization.

Unknown Speaker 57:06

This study, for example, found that approximately a quarter of high school teachers of surveyed held the belief that fat people were more impulsive, less organized, and had more family problems than non fat people. In the same study, 28% of teachers felt that becoming fat is a worst thing that could happen to a person. When the person of the when the perspective or the potential victims of these discriminatory acts was investigated, it was found that 27% of the sample of adolescents undergoing treatment to lose weight claimed to have been victimized by their own teachers. The cognitive component of explicit anti fat bias has been assessed through the measurements of PE teacher stereotypical beliefs. Most of the studies have shown that PE teachers endorse stereotypes that represent fatness fat individuals as lazy, incompetent and weak willed. For example, this study surveyed 105 PE teachers and found that they had lower expectations of fat students than healthy than straight size students, both in terms of the physical abilities and by their reasoning, cooperative, and social interaction skills. Similar findings have been reported by this study using an experiment experimental task in which P teachers had to rate the expected abilities and important performance of fat and nonfat students depicted in photographs. Applying a modified version of the fat stereotypes questionnaire to a sample of trainee P teachers discovered that fat children in comparison with nonfat children were thought to be lazier and less socially adept among other common stereotypes.

Unknown Speaker 58:45

They also found that PE teachers thought that fat kids lacked the willpower to control their weight. 42% have a sample of 307 61 Adolescents enrolled in a weight loss camp reported that they had been bullied or teased about their weight by PE teachers, or sports coaches 42% had been bullied by adults.

Unknown Speaker 59:12

There's another study interviewed 12 Fat high school students about their experiences in PE including questions about how they were treated by PE teachers. Most of them described inappropriate teaching practices such as encouraging fat students to sit out certain activities or punishing the whole class when fat students failed.

Unknown Speaker 59:32

Fun time so the study goes on. So the results is kind of mixed like do maths teachers. Are they less biased than PE teachers?

Unknown Speaker 59:45

In some ways, yes. In some ways, they are just as biased.

Unknown Speaker 59:51

And so what they found is that what they guessed is that PE teachers so the PE teachers were like yeah, fat people love for him disgusting.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

Whatever. I'm paraphrasing, they didn't say disgusting, but you know they're fat people are bad, but

Unknown Speaker 1:00:06

I feel sorry for them.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:09

And so what the researchers have have question is is, are the fat? Are the PE teachers saying that because they know that this is not socially acceptable to shame fat kids

Unknown Speaker 1:00:23

is what they're guessing. But you can go read the whole thing. link in the show notes

Unknown Speaker 1:00:33

where we are aware episode Lillooet do to but a leper 161 So if you want to find that all the links for everything that I'm talking about face for a forward slash 161.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:48

Let us continue.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:53

Okay, so, questions how this is what I've asked the audience, how would you have liked to experience school so that it was a positive experience for you? And your dream world? What would it look like? So this is what you've said, my dream school experiences when I was a kid. desks that accommodate large bodies, teachers that are trained to combat anti fatness

Unknown Speaker 1:01:16

holding bullies accountable students and teachers.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:20

Having us a feeling of safety being heard and accepted. Body neutrality, no fitness testing, just learning for the mind and joyful movement movement for the body. Just bodies weren't discussed at all that health wasn't discussed from about that health was discussed from a balanced Intuitive Eating standpoint.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:40

kind of remember the name body happy club or something. But they do work with the schools schools to help them do this. And I wish I had that. Yeah. So Molly Forbes,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:50

wrote the kid body that wrote the book, body happy kids, I'm quoting her.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:56

And Molly is doing incredible work with schools. And imagine if we had that when we were little, when we were little babies.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:05

I did have a relative good experience in school. As in I had good friends and I was a relatively confident teenager. But one of the fattest in my year, if not the school, I did experience school differently from my friends to teachers comments, and being slightly bullied by other kids.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:21

It was, it wasn't a nice time, I'd like I'd have liked teachers to have more of an understanding of what a fat teenager was going through, and maybe use that language that isn't shaming in front of other people.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:34

I wouldn't have loved to have a PE class that had any actual information in it at all. If they would have taught us things like this is how you should lift heavy things without hurting yourself. Yeah, that's a good idea. Or this is the proper way to breathe while exercising. Yeah, or these are the muscles you should work on to counteract how much you sit in class that your background hurt when you're older. Or any gentle nutrition focus on giving your body what it needs instead of the bullshit that we've got focused on like not drinking soda, it would also be so much more useful than finding out I can't run a mile because I've had zero training for it or following the other kids around on a soccer field because somehow they know how to play even though I've I've never had one less lesson. Of course body positivity would have been ideal but not actively harming my relationship with my body and in every health class would have been a good start focus on self love and acceptance that's really all that matters everything grows from there. teachers taught by Molly from body happy org yes acceptance of all bodies. them some things are beyond control diversity in images and books. Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker 1:03:46

there is so much overhaul for for kids to be in a positive environment I mean shit it's almost impossible like that that

Unknown Speaker 1:03:59

episode I did fat bias and kids media from from the beginning when they're babies. Coco melon. Other fucking cartoons are like vegetables are good sugar is bad. Haha look there's a fat person. Oh, look at Fat Daddy Pig. He's a fat loser. You know all of that shit. I mean, it's from the from the beginning and so

Unknown Speaker 1:04:24

it's so it's so hard. And so if you have a kid trying to counteract that message, don't get that book body having kids by by Molly for Zoo.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:38

It's a great start. But more more love dogs. Orcs. org has some things to say more love.org Is that is that place where you can get the free. Don't weigh me cards. There's also don't weigh me don't weigh my kid cards. And the person who runs it is that

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

actually

Unknown Speaker 1:05:01

specializes in kids stuff kid education or something like that.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:07

So there's a blog post here from more love.org teachers please stop teaching children dieting to children years. She goes over the she goes over the reasons why we shouldn't be teaching tired dieting to children. And the number number two thing that she says is that fat children face no more risks of disease.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:29

What she's saying is backed by links to studies. So if you want those, even if we were facing a quote, epidemic of weight gain and a review of 17 studies, children who remain fat from childhood to adulthood now had no more risk than adults who had never been fat. In fact, women who maintained high weights from childhood to adulthood actually enjoyed lower levels of triglycerides and total cholesterol. Surprise, surprise, yeah. And people and it's like, oh, kids are gonna get type two diabetes. I can't remember what the fact is, but it's something like it's in the hundreds, let's just say the minimum of the hundreds 100 Kids are 100 times more likely to get an eating disorder than they are to get type two diabetes.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:09

We're focusing on the wrong things.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:14

Continuing but isn't it good advice to quote eat healthy, many educators may agree that children should not diet yet they still poorly understand concepts of healthy eating healthy in quotations. For example, many educators tell children that they should limit sugar however, there was very little evidence that sugar intake is linked to fatness even sugary sodas commonly believed to be nothing but quote bad have no direct link to weight gain. And in fact, one study even found that teenagers who drank the most soda were thinner than peers who avoided soda Yeah. Similarly, similarly, similar really similar. Similarly similar. Similarly, whoa, the heart. Similarly, fast food has not been associated with greater fatness. Some of the heaviest populations in the world have no access to fast food. What children eat certainly plays a role in their health. However, blaming weight on particular foods and food groups is simply not supported by scientific evidence. Yeah, so what the saying what your meat plays that role in the health and when we're thinking about that. It's not saying don't ever eat a burger it's Do I have enough food? Do I have a variety of foods to participate my growth as a child? Right Thinking about it like that? Many teachers think that saying things like eat healthy is at best positive and at worst neutral. However, they are incorrect. Quote, negative messages such as sugar and fries are bad and the use of the term junk food contributes to the understanding of fear of food dietary fat and weight gain which precedes body image concerns and eating problems end quote and with a link to a study should schools fight Oh word an alarming number of schools have decided to take on preventing childhood Oh word as part of their mission fun times. However, the data shows is not helpful. The childhood adolescent trial or the for cardiovascular health ca t ch sponsored by the National Institutes of Health is one of the largest school based prevention programs. In catch that's the acronym schools modified the school food service increased physical education programs and introduced health credit curriculum and family nutritional education. Despite three years of well intentioned efforts, participating schools did not reduce the rate of fatness nor did they achieve decreased blood pressure or cholesterol levels. Quote, there is little evidence so far that school based programs have had a major major or lasting impact on BMI or body adipose adiposity that's body fatness. That's an that's a quote from a study. Many studies over the last few decades show that when adults tried to regulate or control what children eat, their children ate more, not less, and are likely to end up with weight, body image and eating related problems. That's another quote from a study. controlled experiments have shown that quote trying to encourage pressure even reward children to eat certain foods actually turns them off to those foods and makes it less likely that they will eat them conserve conversely, if children are deprived of certain foods, they become more interested in those foods and are more likely to overeat them when they get the opportunity.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:22

So the answer prevent weight stigma not fatness? It would be great if teachers could stop teaching dieting. But what about health? Well, the good news is that teaching students Health at Every Size. This approach focuses on self acceptance, positive body image and intuitive eating and movement. Anti fatness programs has shown no success in improving health or making people thinner. Yet Health at Every Size has shown statistically and clinically relevant improvements in physiological method measures example blood pressure blood lipids, health behaviors example eating an active activity habits dietary quality and

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

psychosocial outcomes such as self esteem and body image, and that Hayes achieves these out health outcomes more successfully than weight loss treatment and without the country contra indications associated with weight forget.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:13

Yeah. So some quick quick polls to see where people are at some polls did you experience this is from my IG stories? Did you experience anti fat bias from educators at school? 65% said yes. 11% said no. 12% said sometimes 11% said not sure. So 60 of 65 plus

Unknown Speaker 1:10:40

problem. So 77. So 77% said yes, or sometimes that they experienced anti fat bias from an educator. These adults are meant to be teaching us. Did you experience anti fat bias from other kids at school?

Unknown Speaker 1:10:58

86% said yes. 5% said no. Nine said sometimes and one said no. 1% said Maybe so 95% of fat kids experienced fat bias. Yes. Or sometimes from other kids? 95% Did you leave school feeling empowered about your body? Yes. 0%?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:28

Not at all. 97%? Wow. A little bit 3% a moderate amount. 0%? So 97% of people

Unknown Speaker 1:11:43

did not leave school feeling empowered about their body? Did educators teach you disordered behaviors and beliefs? 8%? Yes. around food? 5%? Yes. Around body?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:59

59%? Yes, around body and food? And 27% said no. So 73% of people were taught disordered behaviors and beliefs by educators, either around food around their body, or their food, food and their body? 77% I think the most the most shocking statistic is that 0% of people said that they left school feeling empowered about their body. And numbers wise, we don't have it. I don't have it right here. How many people took this survey, but it was minimum 100 People probably closer to 200. So this is not just you know, one or two people who are saying this. So what's the answer?

Unknown Speaker 1:13:04

Big Science the answer.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:09

Oh, I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:13:13

I'm not an educator, I'm a teacher. I'm like, I educate people about anti anti fat bias. I'm not a school teacher. So I don't I don't know. I don't know. I know what is not helpful.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:25

And that's forcing kids to do things.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:30

And taking the fun out of things. And I think the way that we were the way that I was taught in, in Junior School, which is we weren't taught PE we would, we would just have break time, you know, we'd have what, 15 minutes at the morning, and then hour ish, or 15 minutes at dinner. And we were just running around and stuff. And I think that if we have, if we have things available, you know, like climbing frames, and, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:02

people would always because we're opening we'll play football, not American football, you know, football.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:09

And, you know, kids would spend a lot of kids would spend the whole lunch break playing games,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:17

and others didn't and that was fine and anything is moving, your body can be health promoting. And also moving your body can do the opposite. And not everyone can move their body.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:32

And moving your body doesn't mean that you'll necessarily be automatically healthy. It is a health promoting behavior.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:40

But if you don't move your body, you're not going to automatically spontaneously combust your eyeballs aren't going to fall out you're not going to be

Unknown Speaker 1:14:48

automatically unhealthy. It's just one of many different things that can contribute to better health outcomes alongside any other things that we don't think about or like it's

Unknown Speaker 1:15:00

hammered into us, if you move your body, you'll live forever. You know, obviously, that's less hyperbole, but, you know, we're not thinking about, Oh, if you don't experience racism, oh, if you have secure housing, oh, if you have connections with your community, you know, etc, etc. Oh, if you drive, not too much over the speed limit, oh, if you engage in safer sex, we're not constantly like, shaming ourselves or thinking that we're a better human and being like, me.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:36

I have an apartment to live, you know, we don't think about that in regards to like, I mean, ship. Yeah, we do. We do. We do. Because we look down upon people who are houseless. But I mean, when we, when we think about health, we're not like, I have chosen to be healthy in regards to I face less hardships due to XYZ and therefore I'm a better person because of it. And obviously, that comes with a black, you know, it's not black and white. There's lots of shades of gray around that. But, you know, you know what I'm trying to say, you know, what I'm trying to say is that we're so focused on these things, to the point where we're fucking up kids and we've all been fucked up. You know, we as in people my age who had the same experiences as me, or people older and younger,

Unknown Speaker 1:16:25

who are fat at school, you know, there are there handfuls of people who you know, who have had good experiences because they were lucky to have positive teachers. But you know, most people are have left school with terrible experiences. So anyway, if you enjoyed this episode, go to cofee and chuck me a few dollars. Buy me a coffee, subscribe. That would make my fat heart pitter patter.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:55

If you can do that, and if you can't, then that's absolutely fine as well. I'm happy to have you here listening to my dulcet tones. dulcet what does that mean? Let's do a little bit of googling dough.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:09

So that probably means like, smooth

Unknown Speaker 1:17:15

sweet or soothing? My dulcet tones. It's nice word isn't it? dulcet.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:23

Anyway, thanks for hanging out. I'm gonna stop talking and Googling fucking words.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:29

You were the best. No, you were the best you are you were the best. And I'll see you in the next episode. tatoeba Oh boy.

Episode 160 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 160, How life changes after you discover fat liberation and anti-diet. The Good, the Bad, and the annoying let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:27

Hello, welcome to this episode first fatty and friends are first fatties. How are you doing? I am experiencing gender dysphoria. I don't know what that is. I'm cool. Bulgaria. I think it's a one bullet Wombles on gender dysphoria. Oh, oh, seven, nine. So I'm non binary, right? My pronouns are they them. And I've been growing my hair out. It's probably three inches long, maybe longer. Four inches, maybe. I had a shaved head. And I've had short hair for the last probably four years. Yeah, four or five years, shaved my head from having longer hair. Anyway, I've been growing my hair out. And I'm having feelings. It's still the under the under underneath is completely cut, like shaved. And so there's only hair on the top. But us has just like putting on clothes for this podcast. I can I just do it naked God on clothes with the podcast. And thank you did he did he's just trying to dig a hole underneath me. Oh, I didn't know I felt like I need some other non binary trans people to talk to about this because I'm newer. In this gender journey. I've only been out as non binary for I guess a couple of years a year something like that somewhere between a year and a couple of years. And it's just so confusing. Because my hair feels too feminine. And then then I feel too masculine but not masculine. Something else like it's just not there's something just not right. And my brain is just you know, I'm like, Okay, why don't you put on this top instead of that top and see if that fits the your perception of your gender right now and I'm like, No, we'll try this top and then put on this thing. Eventually I settled on a baseball cap and a V neck top with hoop earrings. That kind of feels closest to how my gender feels right now but it's not exactly right. I feel like my gender is right now is Beyonce is music video for flawless with and she's she's got like a plaid shirt with a chain and like booty shorts and like boots and it's like but not necessarily that outfit because I put that outfit on not the booty shorts, but the plaid shirt and a chain and I was like that's not it but it's like the essence of kind of masculine and feminine and I don't know if you watch that video, but it's like an in black and white and she's She looks like she's with a bunch of white supremacist skinhead people, but I presume that that not I think it's just like, similar style. Is that what it is? Do I want to be a white supremacist skinhead? Is that the gender I'm looking for? Oh, no, it's just confusing. Anyway, that videos really cool all of it. If you just Google flawless, and it's the one where they start with girls time, like an old 80s TV show, then you'll know you're on the right thing. Yeah, maybe do I just want to be Beyonce? Is that what it is? I fucking who knows. Okay, so moving on, because my probably not, not a lot of you. Vic's? I don't know. I'd say maybe not a lot of you are non binary. But maybe you know, a lot of people like yes, I feel the same video and if that's the case, hey. So last episode, we had a goal. We had a goal for this episode for Kofi KOF i, which is a version of Patreon but better. We had a goal of getting 15 subscribers and $85 a month in subscription values to go towards the face value podcast. And we grew that we did have we had nine subscribers and we had was it 45 Squirrel squirrels grow 55 So last last episode, we had nine subscribers and 55 subscription value. And now we have 10 and 65. Oh, okay, we want to get to 15. That's a goal. Okay. So if you liked the podcast, and you think it's a value, or it's worth $5 a month to you so $1.25 An episode, if you do four episodes, if it's worth that to you, hopefully it is, you know, Vinnie, no badge is not worth anything to me. It is, if you feel like it is, then you can go and become a baby fat subscriber, which is just $5 a month, and you will get the size diversity resource guide. And then I'm planning on month two, giving people the first fatty sheath of science and links and resources and like information about the studies. So it's like this big spreadsheet with science stuff. And then I'm thinking about having like, episodes, where it's only the, you know, getting a week early or something like that, I'm still thinking about that, but let's see how it goes. Because if people are not interested, then I won't do it. Right. So if people aren't interested in subscribing, there's, there's no point. So yeah, if you do value, my content that I provide for free, we're at 160 episodes, go to KO fi, K ofI, forward slash fierce fatti or find my shit or go to the show notes. Whatever you're listening on, I'm sure there's a link somewhere. If you want the show notes, just generally, it's always just the episode number. So we're on 100 and 61st of all eight, four slash 160. Okay, so how life changes after you discover fat liberation and anti diet, the good, bad and the annoying. I had done an episode like this a few years ago. And it was so interesting to go back and look at the notes about what I perceived to be the good, the bad. And the annoying. And it is, is my experience is a lot more robust. And I wonder if they align with your experiences or if you're new to fat liberation and anti diet what you might have to come in the future. And as you can see from the title I said, the good the bad, and the annoying, so it's not all roses and fairy tales, Irish. I wish I wish that we could discover fat liberation and be like, Oh, turns out I'm a bad bitch. I will never be have fat phobic thoughts or, or experience fatphobia again in my life, oh, let's go to this. Let's create like a fat liberation island where you know, everyone's just like, fat and fat and into fat liberation. And we just go and have fun, and then just go live there forever. That'd be fun. But unfortunately, that does not yet exist. Someone created lose. So yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. So the first thing is, due to fat liberation and fat liberation, when I'm talking about fat liberation is the idea that fat people are humans by no store range that people are humans. And they deserve equal access, respect, dignity, and all of the things that straight size counterparts. Get, right? It's not about saying I might do an episode on this, like myths around fat liberation is not about saying we hate fat ease, and we hate thin people and you're forced to find fat people attractive or we want everyone to be really unhealthy or anything like that. It's just hey, let's, let's give fat people equal access and so that fat folks can

Unknown Speaker 9:02

live our lives. Just like stone size people. I was pretty basic, right? And then anti diet the idea that diets don't work, but if you want a diet you do you it's all about choice if dieting works for you, but for me, dieting doesn't fit with my girls or, you know, politics, whatever. Okay, so now that I've been in fat liberation and anti diet for I think about eight years now. I have a much deeper understanding of my worth. And because I have a deeper understanding of my worth, as a human, just my you know, worth as a human, that I am not an absolute giant bag of shit. Whereas before I really did believe that I was a bag of shit because I have a fat body. And so sometimes, because I'm aware of my worth, I am getting what I am worth, however, sometimes I don't, because I don't have that influence. And that feel shifts sometimes because I understand my worth, I get what I want, I get my worth. And sometimes I don't. And that feels shit. So it can feel really good and it can feel not so good. And I'm just thinking about things like, we're talking about fat stuff and bodies and things like that, but I really feel like it extends to other parts of your life. So for example, things like money, like, because I have my own business, right, and I do consulting with companies and, and other folks, dieticians, whatnot. And I feel like, instead of being incredibly apologetic and charging the absolute bare minimum and being like, Oh, thank you for working with me, and, oh, actually, I'll work for free, which is a lot of kind of how I felt before I be like, This is what my price is. And if you're able to pay it that has no bearing on able and willing to pay it that has no bearing on me, in regards to my worth. Whereas like, if someone say, came back before and was like, Whoa, that's a lot, or oh, that's more than I can afford, then I'd be like, oh, what I hear is, I am not worth this. Whereas now I'm like, No, I know, I know what I'm worth. And some people might not be able to afford to work with me and some people can and that doesn't matter. And we're using the word worth, but it's kind of not necessarily just to do with money, and also not saying that humans need to have a worth. Because I think when I'm what I'm saying worth what I'm saying is what I am entitled to, which is the same as what everyone else is entitled to right. Before I didn't think that I was entitled to what everyone else was entitled to. I thought I was entitled to less. Yeah, so not worth, it's what I am entitled to. Okay, so next interactions with healthcare providers. So there's good and bad with it. So I know when I'm been denied evidence based care. So I can fight back and ask for evidence based care. But I also know when I'm being denied evidence based care, and that feels bad. That doesn't feel fun. You know, when I look at my last doctor's visit, she said, Oh, yeah, so for this condition, lose weight. And I was like, I didn't say anything, because I know she just she just says says it offhand. She doesn't press it. But it was kind of like a little stab in the heart of she's not on my side, she doesn't understand she doesn't understand about fat politics. And that's really sad. And also, I can say, Wow, she doesn't understand about poor fat politics. She doesn't understand about weight science. And what she's saying isn't evidence based care. So what I'm going to do is have a look at what well, the evidence is, oh, turns out that you can't lose weight. Lalla Uh huh. Okay, I feel I'm back to my you know, feeling better. But then also feeling frustrated that the person who I talk to you about health doesn't understand about fat liberation, but at least I know now, whereas before, when I wasn't, didn't know anything about fat liberation, I would hear, you need to lose weight, and I would be on a diet right now. I would be on a diet or right now. Think about and the last eight years of being like being aware of fat liberation and anti diet, the amount of diets I would have been on in that time that I have not been on, and how beneficial that is for my, my health and my mental well being. Wow. But also, how frustrating it is to be prescribed diets, you know, any anything. Next I have increased confidence. So increased confidence around my body and general confidence. And so just an FYI, these are my experiences. Someone else who was discovering fat liberation may not have increased confidence, they might not experience any of these things that I'm experienced. So this is just my personal experience. Okay. So I now know that my body is not the problem. So before fat liberation, I was like, my body is a problem. If I just lose weight, then I will be okay. But the problem is actually the way that society views my body and other people's bodies. That is the problem. And so that new way that shift of thinking has helped me advocate for myself, and generally feel better about who I am as an individual. And I no longer casually accept shit, because I feel shit. So before or it was like I was colluding with the system of oppression. I was colluding with anti fatness. And I was on like, the other side of the table with anti fatness and, you know, another version of Vinny was on the other side and I an anti fat notice, like, look at that body want to ugly piece of shit. And I was like, Yeah, Taliban, they are disgusting. They need to lose way. And you know, the other version of Vinny is like, Okay, I'm sorry. Whereas now I'm sat with other version of Vinny, on the side of myself. And if that bias is still on the other side, saying you're a piece of shit, you need to lose weight. Whereas I'm, they're able now to say, No, fuck off. So I was colluding with anti fat bias previously, now I'm fighting it. And because of that, that has increased my confidence. Because I know that I am not the problem. It is all these systems of oppression that is the problem. Which, you know, knowing that is really fucking annoying, right? Because at least when I was the problem, I could fix it, quote, unquote, I could fix it. I couldn't. But I could, I had control. If I just did this, I just ate less if I just exercise more, if I just became smaller, then everything will be fixed. And that was very black and white thinking. Now, this, this shades of gray. I will show you the gray. Don't you just want to yes, no. Easy peasy left, right. Good, bad. Oh, it's so annoying having to use critical thinking skills. Oh, God, I just just just not. But yeah, unfortunately. And fortunately, that's not the case anymore. So relationships, all of my relationships are with people who don't fat shame. Many of my relationships are with people who are actively fat positive and anti diet. No, one person in my life is that person that I'm like, Oh, God, here we go. This person is talking about blah, blah, blah. I do not have those people in my life anymore. And that is a massive level of privilege that I have because I was able to remove myself from those people. Sometimes you can't. Sometimes you don't want to sometimes it's complicated. You know, say if you're dependent on someone for for housing, or for income or for support or whatever, and that also a raging fat phobe, you might not be in the position to be like, get the fuck outta here, loser. Because you might die. You know? I'm I mean, the result is, you know. And so that comes with a ton of privilege me saying that. And also recognizing a lot of hard work that I've gone through to get there. Because when I started out on the this journey eight years ago, absolutely no one in my life was fat positive. No one anti diet new way. Pro diet, yes. Because I was pro diet and a lot of my friendships were built on talking about the opposite of what I talk about now. And I realized that that was not sustainable. And so either I set boundaries, and those people accepted those boundaries, or they didn't, or I had difficult conversations, or they just drifted from my life. Or here's the really awesome thing. They too then became fat positive. Obviously, I have family and

Unknown Speaker 18:52

and you can cut family out and I have actually one of my sisters, I had to cut out because she is deeply committed to anti fatness and wouldn't respect my boundaries. And unfortunately, that meant that I couldn't have her in my life. And many years of stuff coming up to it. It wasn't just like, I was like, I've discovered fat liberation because I read a book one time and you're dead to me, loser. You didn't have him like that. It was a long, many therapy sessions, long process. And so that is so joyful for me to know that I am not going to casually run into anti fat bias and pro diet stuff when I'm at lunch with a friend. That is not going to happen. In fact, the opposite. We're going to be talking about radical politics and laughing and having fun and enjoying the food. Versus before being like Carlos is a nice salad. Oh. But it meant that was difficult and that's hard and I lost relationships and And that sucks. And that took a lot of growth from me and doing things that I didn't want to do. Who the fuck wants to set boundaries? I know they're good, but you know, I roll it wasn't do that can't be we just read our minds and just behave exactly the way that we want them to know they can't oh my god so annoying I need to fucking talk to them rude. And as the other thing right before I would not be having conversations with with people and just secretly behind their back, I'll be like, So and so it's so this and that. And I hate them and Melilla, but I would never give them the opportunity to be close to me because I would absolutely not say it to their face. When I oh my god, you're amazing. Because I was so terrified. I was scared, right? You know, I'm scared of rejection. I'm scared of how would they would react if I said, don't say this, or can you not say that? And that's one of the things is when I'm working with with one on one clients. One of the first things I will ask is, who are you surrounded by people who was struggling? Guarantee, I guarantee they've got at least one or two people in their life who are actively anti fat. And it's usually usually their mum, or their sister, or mother in law. And that's tricky, right? Because it's it's his family. And the people who are longer far further along on on this this journey. You know, if I ask that question, they'll be like, yeah, actually, you know, I have got one friend who introduced me to this and and actually there is I do have a few fat friends who Lola and and you know, they've you know, I have a cousin who who doesn't who kind of doesn't talk that well, about fatness, but you know, I don't really see him that often. You know, there's there's going to be a difference there. And I'm not saying that you have to cut out people who are committed to bigotry. But for me, it just didn't feel good. Just didn't feel good. Right. And eventually, the more confidence and self worth that I had because of that liberation, the more I realized, actually, there's other people out there who will treat me better and have a nicer experience with. Yeah, no. Okay, so next, my body is not a thing anymore, really. So it's not a thing as in. I'm not thinking about it all the time. As I say that, as I'm talking about today about my gender stuff. In regards to fatness, right. So anyway, with the gender stuff, I'm not thinking about how others perceive my body, I'm just feeling I'm thinking about the, the feeling the is this like, I don't know, or aura or something of gender that I want to step into. So it's not this like I'm not right it's it's this kind of puzzle piece thing, so, but anyway, with fatness, I'd be like, from the moment I wake woke up the clothes that I put on, are they are they do they fit? Do I look good? What are people thinking? Do people think I look too big? If I am in a photo, what does the photo look like? Do I Do I look to him to fatten the photo? Let me see the photo as soon as it's is as it's taken. Oh my god, delete that photo. I don't like it. Oh, God, I look bad. So therefore I must look bad today. And now like, I just it's not really a thing. It's just not a thing. You know, I know that. I know that. Living in a bigger body. People are judging me, but I don't really give a fucking shit. I don't, I don't, I don't think about it. I don't think about other people thinking that I'm too too fat. It just doesn't even come up into my brain. That's cool, isn't it? I just read I just realized that I don't even think about it. I don't think that anyone's thinking. Vinnie should be smaller, but I'm sure people are thinking that, that obviously the fat folks and there's also people who are like, Oh, Vinny is a great look at that body that Vinny has got Vinny is amazing what a great personality or whatever, or nothing. Oh, you know, what am I making for dinner tonight? Because really, it's not my business to know what's going on in other people's heads. And if they are judging me, then I feel compassion for them because I know why they're judging me is because they don't feel good about themselves. So it doesn't stop people judging me. But it's it means that I don't really give a shit. But again, I want to mention the level of privilege that I have as a white person, as a medium fat person as someone who is not disabled, etc. My experiences might be different. Well, they would be there's not My will will be different. If I had more marginalized identities. And it might be that I would think about it more, because I would be experiencing more stigmatization. And I would be experiencing more people verbally telling me that they're judging me negatively or experiencing that through other actions. So, sprinkling there with my privilege, or that privilege over that situation, my situation, my experience, will not be the same as everyone's. And on the other side, someone who has a smaller body, they will be experiencing the same things as me. So, yeah, the way that I view my body is, I'm like, You're welcome. That I'm educating you with my body by being present here today, in a fat body that doesn't give any fucks you are welcome to soak up this fucking juicy shit. That's what I think. Just You're welcome for my presence today. Yeah. Okay. So to begin with, fat liberation was very lonely. It was lonely. There weren't a lot of fat people. I knew there weren't a lot of people who were anti diet. And when I joined Joy joyously, a told people in my life, did you know that there's no way to lose weight long term? And did you know, I was met with? That doesn't sound right. Well, we all know fat people are unhealthy. Hang on a minute. And so it was a very lonely experience. And with that, kind of drifting away over the other friends who were anti fat. It was, and, and, and with the well being so anti fur, it felt like I was just on this island of, you know, being like, Oh, I think that this, this might work. For me, this might be a good idea. And it felt like there was no one else like maybe three other people in the whole world who who thought that this might be something worth pursuing fat liberation. And so it took time to find fat community. It took years and finding that community online. And luckily finding fat community in Vancouver, which is a very thin city, it's kind of you know, they say the Hollywood North is what they call Vancouver. Because this film industry here is here, but also culturally, it's very much kind of like LA in regards to thin nurses, the nurses in. And so it took time. And again, just mentioning my privilege, me living in Vancouver, means that aren't there. Many people are living, I don't know how many people who live here, probably billions. And also, because I am doing this as for my job, I have an online presence. Therefore it's easier for me to meet people. And also because of my personality type. I'm outgoing, and I like talking to people. And I find it easy to make friends. But there are fat people who are are quieter or maybe more introverted, and they found their fat community too. Because not all fat people are like me, right? Obviously, some family will be like, I don't wanna be friends with Vinnie, they're too loud, or that to theirs or whatever. Well, they're just not my cup of tea, or, you know, and so there's lots of,

Unknown Speaker 28:31

there's lots of fat community out there. And it could be that, it's just that it, most of it is going to be online. And that's the thing is, so many of my friends are online, I've never met them. And that's okay, doesn't mean that their friendships are less valuable. Of course, this has never happened. But imagine, imagine if I could go shopping with a fat person. This has never happened. We've got a new we've got another plus sized clothing swap coming up. That's the closest thing that we have in Vancouver. And that is that is so joyous, bringing your clothes that no longer serve you. And then putting it on a table and seeing another fat person picking up your clothes saying oh my god, this is perfect. I love this. Oh, and then you picking up something and I love this. And then another fat person said I brought that oh my god, it looks so good on you. Oh, love it, love it. But again, you're might be in a small community and not have that. Maybe you can create it or not whatever. Okay, so fat liberation and anti diet ruins. So many of my previous favorite media, movies, TV shows, books, it ruins it. It doesn't ruin it, but it opens my eyeballs to the problems in the in the in the text in the in the messages. And you know even now new stuff coming out you excited for a new series and you're like, Fuck say God, okay, they are invested in anti fat bias for like Way to ruin this series. And then you have to stop watching it or you don't. And then you have to put yourself through anti fat bias because you've got like a guilty pleasure of watching bikini babes on the beach dating show, whatever it is. So, and it's like, once you've seen it, you can't unsee it. It's the the veil has been lifted. And it's like, for fuck sake. That's what it feels like for fucks sake, why is it that, you know, like, oh, I mean, you know, my favorite show, always was always always always Sex in the City. Me and my sister had a board Sex in the City board game, and we'd be screaming out the answers to each other, but we loved Sex in the City. And I bet yeah, loads of you to be like, Yeah, I love Sex in the City, or I still do. That show was fucked up. Very entertaining. And like pear shaped me into the human I am in many ways, but you know, rewatching it you're like, oh my god, like I remember this up and not even just the fat stuff everything at everything. The episode where Samantha got quote, fat, like she she wasn't having enough sex with Smith. And so she ate a cake or something. And and so they put on I guess, someone put on a pair of trousers on her that weren't, you know, maybe a centimeter too tight and so made her tummy ever so slightly bulge the time he had not even a bulge that you know, made her skin slightly not be taught. And, and when she walked in, and all the girls being like, holy shit, you're so fucking fat, Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you? We need to have a conversation about how grotesque and fat you are. Obviously, they didn't say that. But it was like a camera pan down to her her giant stomach. And it was just a thin stomach. And, you know, that's just one example. I can remember. And there's lots of other things. But anyway, so you just like I roll and you might decide to watch that stuff anyway. And then you just like why. But also it makes you really, really appreciate when fat positive stuff does come out? And it really that really fills your cup. I don't know, if it would have before as much if I would have noticed it would if would I be excited about something new that was fat positive that came out? I don't know. I don't know. So all of this can be exhausting, but also rejuvenating. So you've taken off the rose tinted glasses, and now can see how anti fat bias is ever really well. It's overwhelming. And it made me really angry a lot of the time. And that's what I see a lot is when people are. It's kind of like, I guess it's like the stages of grief or something I know that's bullshit is not a real thing. But it's like people come to fat liberation, and they're like, oh my god, this is amazing. This is so good. I'm so excited. And then then it's like, Oh, what, what the fuck? And if that bias is everywhere, what are companies I happened? Oh my god, I'm so angry. Fuck you, everybody. He's like, in the beginning, you're like, I'm gonna tell everyone about it, and they're gonna be so excited. And they're gonna join me in this fat liberation thing. And then no, and then everyone, you know, fat bias is everywhere. And so then you're like, you're like a fucking I hate everyone. And then it comes into the kind of like, Yeah, I know, it's everywhere. And also, I can't, you know, being angry all the time. You know, I can be angry 97% of the time, but But you know, I need that 3% where I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm accepting the grudgingly of the anti fat bias existing in the world so that I can live but also using that space of way where you're not angry to move forward and communicate in ways which are more impactful. That's what my experience was before that was my bad I'm not saying that. That's everyone's but you kind of I kind of see I see that as a kind of a common thing thing of going through those stages, but anger is a great thing. Right? We need anger. If we didn't have anger, they'd probably be apathy. So I'm not saying it's bad to be angry or anything but that's just one of the the feelings that people have around this stuff. And and then and then coming out the other side, realizing that the changes are happening, and feeling excited about it. And that is rejuvenating. When you realize oh, oh, this place someone is has changed and is doing better and values fatness and fat people that is so weird Oh my god. And I've really seen that change. More often than not, like before, for like eight years ago, if you said to someone, did you know diets don't work? They'd be like, Fuck off, get out of here. Whereas now if you say diets don't work, I feel like there will be times that people say, oh, yeah, I know that. You know, straight people, straight sides, people. And you'd like oh, and often what they'll say, and this grinds my gears a bit, is they'll say, yes. Have you listened to me? And then phase podcast? And I'm like, Yeah, Jenna, I'm jealous of them. Because I talk about the same stuff. And people don't say everything. Listen to me is very sad. Anyway, I but so I see things changing, right? Okay, I know myself more. Because I'm not shrouded in this cloak of shame. That shame was was oppressive like this, this, this, this force over me, which was like, You shouldn't be ashamed of yourself. Because I'm not shrouded in that shame, as much shame still comes back for me for different reasons. But I'm not shrouded in that shame. And so it feels like shame is like this cloud. And then when the shame around fatness dissipated, the clouds went away in the sun was able to shine on the seeds in the soil of different identities and experiences that I haven't yet to discover. And so one of them being gender. And so the sun was able to shine down on that garden and all the little saplings that were previously unable to grow or was struggling to grow because of the shroud of dark clouds above stopping that sun, we're now able to now grow. And you know, there's clouds will come back for you know, other things. But there's not imagine if all the clouds in the sky a shame about different parts of your identity. So fat was the big one for me, like that was a big color, all encompassing cloud. But there might be other clouds, which is like, shame about if I'm a good person, and then that might come and block the sun for a while. But then that cloud is not as big as the shame about being fat. This is a good analogy. I need to write this down. I'm going to draw a little picture to remind me, I do like an analogy. Shame, clouds. Shame clouds, flowers growing. Yeah. And so I'm able because now that that is lifted, I'm able to explore different parts of myself and understand myself better. Because I'm not viewing everything through the collusion with antivirus I was before. Next, I can rest.

Unknown Speaker 38:03

I can rest. I don't feel I need to prove myself. I don't need to behave like a good fatty to make up for my perceived shortcomings by being excellent in other areas of my life. I feel like fat people resting is deeply liberatory is deeply political, fat people resting fat people napping, fat people, giving them the cells things that they need to thrive not just survive is radical. Imagine that a fat person napping, feeding themselves, not succumbing to the shame of anti fatness and springing up, springing up and being like, okay, no, I'm going to, I'm going to get a salad and I'm going to run a marathon and I'm going to be so great at my job and I'm going to be tired and I'm going to I'm going to make up for this this awful thing that I am this fat thing. And instead says Nah, fuck that. I'm gonna have a fucking nap. I'm not going to kill myself to prove that I am worthy. And this is complicated. I'm I'm this this resting low Nelly. That's one something that I'm really working with. Because not only was the fat in the fat, shame, a big thing but also laziness as a tool of white supremacy. Which you know, laziness is a white supremacist myth that is deeply interwoven into my, my history, my from my my family, and being a productive member of society is to be a A good member of society according to white supremacy, whereas the reality is that you do not need to be productive to be a good member of society. And if we look under that, too, then if you have other marginalized identities, and learning that stuff is really difficult. So yeah, so there's something I saw on Tik Tok, or some somewhere I don't know, it was called fuck was it called? I've written putting in my diary to remind myself to do it every week now. Bare minimum Monday, bare minimum Monday. So every week I put a little thing bare minimum Monday. So to avoid the Sunday scaries the like, oh my god, I'm going to having to go back to work. Instead, say, Okay, I'm just going to try and do absolutely as little as possible on Monday. And then I try to take Friday afternoons off. And again, this is privilege. If you're like, you know, have whatever your job is. You can like, yeah, right. Great, great idea of any like, I'm a nurse bare minimum Monday, what am I going to is going to let people just die because I'm like, sorry, Bob, is bare minimum, bare minimum Monday, I can't do the CVR on you. I'm too tired. I'm gonna have a nap. So I know so many people can't do that, right? Why did Bob diet? Because it was he, you know, he went into arrest when it was bare minimum Monday. So I'd already helped one person that day. So I was at my limit. So sorry. Yeah, but you know, we can extend this to our, our outside of work life. Now the thing that I've done is, I've decided that three social again engagements a week is my limit. So I go to I have choir, so that's one. And at the moment, we've got two choir practices a week, because we're getting close to doing a concert. And so I'll have room in my brain for one other, and I won't be like, Ah, you're such a, you know, party people or whatever, saying no to people and and I've been saying no to people, because I have like one other spot to do something. And apart from that, I'm relaxing to the max. Okay, I have more mental energy to embark on the journey of unlearning other systems of oppression that I was committed to, like ableism, health ism, racism, colonization, etc. Because if you're spending a lot of time thinking, that fatness is a problem, and you your fatness is a problem, and that you need to diet to to restrain this unwielding body that you have. That takes up a lot of mental energy. But when we realized that it wasn't a problem that didn't need to be fixed, there was not a problem there at all, then we can use that brain energy for like kosher kill shit that you want to do. Something that is nice is I may have broken many generations of fat bias. And that's powerful. But I also mourn for those who came before me, who were never able to be free of anti fat bias. I no longer automatically trust experts as I did before. Which is annoying, right? Because it's easier just to be like, Oh, an expert said this. And so it's absolutely right. And with it with learning about, you know, lobbying from weight loss companies, and how much influence they have, and like, where all this kind of rhetoric around, we all know, fat people are unhealthy and a need to lose weight and everyone can lose weight, and understanding like what's underneath that makes you think, Okay, well, I can't just take something on face value as much. And I have to realize that institutions are filled with bias, and individuals are filled with bias. And that is going to be something to consider. And I have to screen for that when I seek out information. And that makes means that there's extra work that I have to do like, you know, what biases are in this information. Yeah, and it's easier you know, because I knew then it can be just black and white thinking, Oh, the doctor said that fat people are pieces of shit. Okay, well, I'll just take that at face value. And then I'll just go on a diet versus you know, what is going on and and I know the doctors are probably not saying fat people or people are pieces of shit, but you know, I'm being I'm exaggerating for effect. But yeah, that can be tiring. coming to the realization that no matter how much I believe I am worthy, and fatness is a beautiful thing, that will not change, systemic anti fat bias. My individual self acceptance won't change the world for fat people. But it might help, it might help. It doesn't matter how much you love yourself, it doesn't matter how much you're like, I'm fucking amazing. That doesn't stop institutionalized, systemic, anti fat bias, ideological, anti fat bias. But I feel like if we do individually have that level of knowing that we deserve better, then the more people that know that, the more that we're able to read anti fat bias from institutions from systems, but it's probably not something that's going to be happy to happen in our lifetime. So it doesn't matter. You know, if you, if you use you love yourself, you're still gonna go into a doctor and have the doctor say you're fat and you need to not be fat. But the difference that I see is that in that example, you're able to say, Huh, is that absolutely true, that I need to not be fat? And is it true, that I should do dangerous things to make myself smaller? And saying I don't deserve to risk my life to be smaller, temporarily, because I love myself and I think that I deserve better. So I think that's what that what the difference is, with this stuff. I've been talking about a lot of kind of like, Oh, my goodness, sound like, fat liberation is just fucking depressing or depressing as shit. But it's not. It's filled with joy. It's filled with love and laughter and, and, and jokes and, and liberation. And I would never never wished that I had not discovered fat liberation and anti diet. Absolutely not. It has changed my life 1,000,000,000% For the better. And I shudder to think if I had never found Regan Chasteen has blogged answers with fat, how the fuck it happened, I can't remember. But I just

Unknown Speaker 47:37

I'm so pleased. Even though there are many times where I feel tired and annoyed and frustrated and angry. There are still many, many times where I feel I know my place in the world. And I know that I have a place and that I am a deserving human being. And that my needs deserve to be considered and met when possible. So I wonder if if you've got any ways that you know, your life has changed after you've discovered fat liberation and anti diet. There's the whole like, anti diet thing, like in regards to the way that you know, you're interacting with food and you're interacting with, with clothes and you know, the diet stuff. There's lots of different nuances around that. And we know things like I'm not really thinking about food. I think about it in regards to like, I'm hungry, I want to eat what do I want to eat? But you know, I'm not thinking, Oh, I'm so bad because I ate food or, Oh, I shouldn't eat food before this, or oh, why am I hungry when I've only just ate I need to wait another X amount of hours until I'm allowed to eat again, or, you know, it's just not a thing the same way that my body is not a thing. Food is really not a thing. And on the flip side, like sometimes, food being a thing was was nice for me in regards to because I was so you know, restrict, and then the joyousness of having that food when I after I did restrict that joyousness for the moment felt nice and that food tastes so good. Then came the shame of you shouldn't have eaten that food whereas now it's like, well, I can have that food at any time. And so that kind of zing that spiciness of impending shame. I don't feel but I mean like do I do I want to have a spiciness of a pen and pen and bending shame it's kind of like you say if you ate like a ghost pepper and you're on your asshole was like

Unknown Speaker 49:44

impending impending diarrhea coming. Do I know not when it's when it's shame that's that's going to come out of the article.

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Okay, well, that's everything I've got to say for today. If you enjoyed this episode, go to Code fi forward slash, first fantasy and let's see if we can get to 15 monthly subscribers. So that's not a one off donation and that's a monthly subscriber. You would make my heart pitter patter with fatty happiness. If we could get there that would be amazing. Thank you for being here today. Even if you can't donate. I appreciate you listening in and I hope you have an amazing rest of your day as far too. I will see you in a while alligator and stay fares fatty.

Episode 159 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 159, Anti-fat bias in the workplace. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Know Welcome to this episode fierce, fatty or fierce, fatty ally, or welcome, so glad that you're here. Thanks for all your cofee donations, you are awesome. I'll let you know where we're at. So goal for every month is $680. To sustain the show at free, each show cost me around $170, at least to create. And that's not factoring in my time or labor. And so far, one off donations I've had $310 and subscriptions. $55. Amazing. So $55 a month in subscriptions. And so what we want to get to is $680.40 $5, just $5 a month, you can give more if you want you can give 1015 I don't know if you can give more than that. I don't think we would want to give more than that. If you want to just give $5 a month you will get the size diversity Resource Guide, which is incredible, has tons of people to follow shows to listen to lalalala like, where to shop, all that type of stuff. You'll get that as a thank you. I'm also actually I'm going to poll my Instagram audience and see what else you want. So what are the free shit you're wanting? Do you want the podcast early? Is that as of interest to you, like a week early or something or a few days early? We can do that for subscribers. And if you just want to do a one off donation, absolutely wonderful. Thank you for that. And for everyone who has already donated one person donated $100 on my shit my pants when I saw that I was amazing. So today's episode is oh, by the way to go to Kofi show notes. Or you can go to Kofi forward slash face fatty and you'll find my page. But you can just go to show notes. And then there'll be to get to the tear thing. It's first party forward slash tears. But anyway, in the show notes, blah, blah, blah. It's episode 159. So for the show notes for everything that we're gonna be talking about today, links to all the science and all that jazz. First factly.com forward slash 159. Okay, so today, what we're going to be talking about is anti bias in the workplace. Do you have a job? Have you ever had a job? Do you ever? Are you ever going to have a job? Leaving a fat body? Wow, have I got something for you? We're going to be talking about two parts a day. First part are the studies on anti fat bias in the workplace. And the second part is my favorite is hearing from you your stories of fatphobia in the workplace and oh, oh, yeah, get ready to be annoyed. So if that isn't feeling good for you today, then skip this episode. If you'd like I don't want to hear about anti fat bias in the workplace. I've got it everywhere around me already. But if you want to know then then Stay Stay tuned. If you work somewhere and you have any type of HR person or any type of manager, or if you are interested in bringing this to your team, I do training for companies called detangling anti fat bias from the workplace. And so you can help me come in or you can ask someone to bring me in. A few weeks ago, I did a large health authority in Ontario. So a lot of health care providers, doctors, etc. And I just got the feedback and it was incredible. I was just like shut up oh my gosh, all these people saying oh my goodness, I never knew that this about the BMI or I never knew that people can't lose weight or I never knew about the language. And now I'm going to do different and and actually they have created an affinity group. So they've created a group of people in the organization to action, the suggestions that I made it's so exciting. So if you know of anyone feel free to email them and say hey, can we have some anti fat bias training? I know someone Vinnie they are incredibly sexually attractive. And that is the only criteria we need to know about a presenter coming into the company. Or if he's an idea if you're like you don't want to because you know If you're not friends with the person or you don't feel comfortable, you can always email me and tell me who I should contact and their email. And I can email them and be like, Hey, do you need anti fat bias training? Or like if you're if your manager is a raging fat phobe, and I can email them saying, just out of the blue, I do that anyways, is, you know, I'll email people saying, Hey, do you want this? So that's not a strange thing for me to do. So if you want to do that, email me fatty at first mattie.com or send them my consulting website, which is first fatty consulting.com But it's more professional. There's not too much swearing on it and stuff compared to my normal stuff. Yeah, so let's talk about study studies. By the way, I was I was away for a week because the last few episodes were were big. That one with my mum had like three hours of audio that my, the podcast team had to go through. So I gave him a week off, because it was a lot that they did. So that was that was why I was away for a week, someone messaged me and said, I missed you. And I say, Oh, thank you. So one note is that I was not there. Okay, so let's talk about the study. So I'm gonna give you a soundbite and then go into what the actual study actually says. So stats for your stats ready for a stat stat stat stat stat, stats, overall, participants reported negative implicit and explicit attitudes towards Oh Word, and the belief that Oh, word is controllable. So this is a study. Again, everything is going to be linked in the show notes. This is a study called Oh word discrimination in the recruitment process, you're not hired. So I'm going to read the abstract here, from what what they've, what they've, what they've done, what they're saying what they're talking about. Okay? A pre previous literature reports that fat persons, they say the O word throughout. So trigger warning, if you are going to go to the links. They're going to be using our words, but I'm going to say fat instead of a word. Previous literature reports that oh, that fat people persons are discriminated in the workplace. Evidence suggests that fat people are perceived as having less leadership potential, and in comparison to straight sized peers are expected to be less successful. This study examined whether fat people are discriminated against when applying for employment. three hypotheses were offered in line with previous research. One fact people are less likely to be assessed positively on personnel suitability suit suitability than straight size people to fat people in active employment are more likely to be discriminated against than people in non active employment, and three fat women are more likely to just be discriminated against than fat men. 181 participants were sampled from sedentary sedentary standing and manual and heavy manual occupations. So participants these are the people who are our rating people for if they're going to hire them or not. And they work in sedentary standing or manual, heavy manual jobs. Employees also completed measures of implicit and explicit attitudes towards fatness MANOVA was conducted to examine effect candidates were discriminated against during the recruitment procedure. Results just demonstrated that participants rated fat candidates as less suitable compared with straight size candidates. And when the weight status of the candidate was not revealed for work across the four work across the four workplace groups, participant gender and weight status also impacted perceptions of candidates suitability for work, and discrimination towards fat candidates was higher in participants from more physically demanding occupations. The study findings contributes to evidence that fat people are discriminated against in the hiring process and support calls for policy development. Yes, I don't know if you know but Nafa with the help of flair flair is the fat legal advocacy resource, something with IE a scarce resource, a explosion. Basically, it's Sondra soul of a lawyer leading a group of legal professionals to fight for fat rights love it. And in New York, they've had a hearing in the last couple of days to ban height and weight discrimination. Fingers crossed it will be a huge win. tigers ospel Chair of, of NASA and other New York, New York activists. I think even people came in who weren't from New York. I know tigress is not from New York to testify, and

Unknown Speaker 10:15

they're going to decide in the next month. Why do they take so long to decide something home? I just hear people say, Hey, there's this problem with this thing. And then everyone just go Yeah, that sounds like a problem. Let's fix it. Instead of taking like a month to decide, I don't understand what's going on in that month. Anyway, whatever there could be a law against that. I'm gonna talk about what other laws we have shortly. Okay, the next thing we are looking at, which is this, I don't know if you've ever heard of this website, Fairy God boss seems to be quite popular. I've never heard of it. But they did a survey they asked 500 hiring professionals to view images of women and describe their professional appearance. These women had distinctly different hair styles outfits, skin tones, facial expressions, and body types. And what they found was that only 15.6% of respondents said that they will consider hiring a fat person. And then they show the image of the fat person. It's someone who's a small fat person. Sad face so quote from them. 20% of the hiring professionals we serve survey chose to describe the photo of the heaviest looking woman as quote, lazy, while this adjective was selected less frequently for every other woman pictured. Additionally, 21% described her as unprofessional and only 18% said she had a leadership potential and then only 15% said that they would hire her fun times fun times. And this is this is a woman who is white. So there's a big flaw with a lot of this research and I don't know if you spot it, what the floor is, is we do not have any gender variation we have man or woman we don't have gender nonconforming folks, trans people, non binary people, etc. And I would guess hazard suggests that if that person is also trans, non binary, gender non conforming in some way or the other, and if they are also black or disabled, and those stats I bet you they will go Googly loom tumbling down even lower. We don't have that information. There probably is somewhere but I don't I don't know if there is studies done on that intersection of trans identities and body size. There's there'll be studies around the you know, other marginalized identities but the combining of the trends and fat I'm not aware of, but I bet you some very smart fat scholars will be doing that type of work. Okay, so when it comes to pay, do the thin win. This is from the American Psychological Association. What a snappy title, then they have to always name these things super boring sciency titles. Anyway, quote from here cultivation theory suggests that society holds a very different body standards for men versus women. And research indicates that the consequences of defying the social norms may not be linear linear. To test these notions in the employment context, we examined the relationship between weight and income to the degree to which the relationship varies by gender. For women, we theorized a negative weight income relationship that is steepest at the thin end of the distribution. For men, we predicted a positive weight income relationship until Oh word so until they were actually fat, where it then becomes negative. To test these hypotheses, we utilize two longitudinal studies one German and one American. In study one weight was measured over two time periods and earnings were averaged over the subsequent five years. Study two was a multi level study in which weight and earnings work within individual varies variables observed over time, and gender was between individual variable results from the two studies generally support the hypothesis even when examining within individual visual changes in weight over time. So the result of the two studies a genuinely support the hypothesis so where it doesn't support the hypothesis is that when it comes to men getting to be fat, that their income goes down. What they found was, Well, I'll tell you what they found. Let me let me continue. What may be more surprising is the degree to which employee yours also seem to have internalized the notion that employees Wait, wait matters, okay. So they're talking about how people don't like fat ease, and they're saying what they're saying is, what may be surprising is that employers also have internalized that weight matters. Well, those same employers are the same people who were out in the public who think that fat people are bad. Just because they get into the job. Job place doesn't mean they suddenly lose biases. Those biases will follow us in at work and out of work. What may be surprising, it's not surprising. What may be not surprising is the degree to which employers also seem to have internalized the notion that employees weight matters. Rowling's 1999 comprehensive review says suggest that fat people are rated as being less desirable as subordinates, co workers and bosses and they are viewed as less conscientious. Conscientious, conscientious. What the fuck constitute conscientious. There we go conscientiously. No, it's conscientiousness. That's not right, you should be conscientious. They put a nurse on the end, anyway, viewed as less conscientiousness, less agreeable, less emotionally stable and less extroverted than the straight size counterparts. Even though the stereotype stereotypes are inaccurate, thank you. It appears that in the United States fat employees are viewed by their employers as lazy and lacking in self discipline. poll and brown owl and Rowling's reviews also revealed that fat women are consistently judged more harshly in the workplace and fat men reported that 60% of fat women, and 40% of fat men describe themselves as having been discriminated against in the course of employment. Again, we don't have stats for fat, G and C people. Study one, so they looked at two studies, one in Germany, one in the US, and it was interesting to see the differences between Germany and the US. So we've got a table here. I'm gonna make a social media post with this, these tables and stuff, right? Okay, so Germany In Germany, so I want you to imagine, we have men and women on a on different points in this graph. So on one side, we have people who are they measured everyone's weight, the average weight, they've put a zero. And then people who were five pounds, 10 pounds, 15 pounds, etc, less than that average weight. And their average weight was I'm not gonna say the weight, but it was a weight of a straight size person. So the average weight and then we have from zero we go plus five plus 10 plus 15 plus 25. So someone had a woman who weighs 25 pounds less than the average and the most. So at the time, that was 2100 euros a month. And then we have the line just curves down. It slopes down to people who are 25 pounds heavier than the people who were at the average weight. Their earnings. Were we don't see it exactly, but it looks like it's about 1750 it's less than 1800. So maybe 1760 Yeah, so yeah, let's just say it's 1717 75 There we go. 7775. So we got over 2100 For someone who is the smallest. And for the biggest in this we have 17 cameras what I just said after I made that big fuss of 17 something 1700 euros a month. So the issues with this is is we've we've stopped at 25 pounds over a straight size person, as we know 25 pounds is not that much. But we can see a very clear line downwards and it looks like it will continue moving down down down the higher but we don't have that information. Now what is interesting for the men the men are right up on this graph. And so the the women were getting paid the thinness women were getting paid 2100 The thinness men were getting paid 2600 plus. So already there's a difference in gender there. But the it was the thinnest men, the wet men who were 25 pounds smaller than the average man, the thinnest men who are getting paid the least. And then it it arcs, it's kind of like a small arc, it's not a it's not a spell it like an upside down you but it's more like a, I'm hand drawing with my finger, then you cannot see my finger, but it's kind of like a little little curve up, and then kind of stabilizes and goes a little bit down. And where it stabilizes is about 10 pounds heavier than the average. And then it goes down. So it doesn't go down as low as the thinner people. It similar to is similar to the 10 pounds overweight, there's not a big difference. So it's the difference between

Unknown Speaker 20:46

you know, 50 bucks a month type of thing. But you know, the, it looks like if we carried on with that trajectory trajectory, it looks like the fattest men, the actual fat men because these these men that are describing aren't really fat, the actual fat men, you know, fat, fat people fat, medium, fat, supersize, Infini, fat, etc, that it looks like that line would then curve down. That's what it looks like it's going to happen. We don't have that data. Okay, so that was Germany. So Germany it was own trusting. So what they say the results were study, one revealed that for men with heavier than average and thinner than average, men learn s less. Men who are two standard deviations below average weight earn $4,057 less, and men who are two standard deviations above average, and $146, less than average than the average man, man. However, these statistics also show that the penalty for being very thin is nearly 28 times for that for being very heavy. The results also show that very thin women the most $3,981 more per year than their average white counterparts. So that's average white counterparts with the fat counterparts there's a lot more conversely, whereas relatively heavy women earn the least $1,848 per year, less than average weight women, a woman loses more than twice as much from going to very thin to average than going from average to relatively heavy. Yeah, so those very thin women, they are the people making the bucks in the in women in the men. Someone who is slightly lid has a little bit of weighed 10 pounds over the average. So I mean, that's nothing right. They're the ones getting paid the most. The interesting to see this looked at as well with other intersections, that if we think about race and disability and all that type of stuff, that'd be interesting to see too. Okay, so the American one is soy is totally, it's wild. It is wild, it looks totally different from the other one. So it is a so we've got the two lines on the graph, one for men, one for women. We've got wait at the bottom money on the side, just like the other one. But instead of the woman kind of just going down down down slowly. The woman's goes from, it's like frickin freefall. It goes from a woman who is 70 pounds. smaller, smaller, is earning 63,000 looks like to someone who is 70 pounds bigger, earning 22 or 21,000. It looks like so 63,000 for the smallest women to 22,000. For the smallest woman for the biggest women, I mean, gobsmacked like Germany, it's like, but the US is like wow. Like room down. And the same goes for the men but the opposite direction this the smallest men are earning 35,000 The heaviest man 70 pounds higher than the average earning 68,000. So more than the women, which is it's showing the same things but even more dramatically, and it could be that it's showing more dramatic dramatically because we have a higher range. So we have 70 pounds either way, whereas the German one is 25 pounds either way, but it's it's still in no it's still even if you zoom in it's still way more dramatic, which goes to show maybe the difference between German opinions and American and opinions at that time on Wait, I don't know, you know, this is assumptions about culture. But yeah, it's not good. Okay, so what they say about it is at the as the table shows a decrease in weight of two standard deviations results in a predicted earnings decree, decree moment decrement decrement. of 17,535 for men, and eight appreciated earnings increment of 22,283 for women. Conversely, an increased weight of two standard deviations result in a predicted earnings increment of 14,889 for men, and a predicted earnings decrement of 18,902 for women. So that's only two standard deviations. So basically, leave America at once. Just for that reason, I'm joking, am I, but I mean, Canada and the UK will probably look just the same. Okay, so next study, here's a little snippet starting of it. If a woman was a stone heavier for no other reason than her genetics, this would lead to her having an income of 1500 pounds less per year than a comparable woman of the same height who was a stone lighter. Okay, so this is height body mass index and socio economic status. Mendelian randomization study in UK Biobank so there isn't this is a British study, they looked at 119,669 men and women across all of British at British ancestry aged between 37 and 73 years old. And the results were in the UK Biobank study shorter stature, so shorter height, and higher BMI were observationally associated with several measures of slower socio economic status, the associations between shorter stature and lower socio economic status tended to be stronger in men, and the association between higher BMI and a lower socio economic economic status tended to be stronger in women. So what they're saying is that short men have worse, worse outcomes, less money, get less money get less of that money than short women, fat women get less money than fat men. And the average quote, average size people are getting the most money actually actually actually pausing that statement. Let's see exactly, for example, a one standard deviation higher BMI was associated with 210 pounds, that's 276 euros or $300. Lower annual household income in men and a 18 1890 pounds, lower annual household household income in women. So that's now that didn't give the conversion rate for the other currencies there. I don't know why they didn't that okay. Genetic analysis provided evidence that these associations were partly causal, or genetically determined one standard deviation taller stature, but one standard deviation is 6.3 centimeters caused a naught point naught six year older age of completing full time education a one 1.7 to 1.18 times higher odds of working in skilled profession, higher annual household income. So if you're taller, you get better outcomes. associations were stronger in men are genetically determined one standard deviation, higher BMI so one standard deviation is 4.6 kilograms caused a 2940 pound lower annual household income and a naught point one zero standard deviation higher level of deprivation and women only. Fun times fun times. So naturally formed woman was a stone heavier is the lead to having an income of 1500 pounds. It's more than that less than 1500 pounds or they're saying this is one standard deviation. That's 4.6 kilos what's 4.6 kilos and pounds and stone? One point 4.6 kilos in stone naught point seven stone in pounds lbs 10 pounds? Yeah, okay, so not even so less than the stone 10 pounds would create a 2940 Lower annual household income. Oh, I know I think no, no, that's not why is it? Why is it anyway whatever. Whatever blah, blah. Low fat when we get paid less shocking. According to research over 40% of people with higher body weight report that they have experienced weight bias from employers and supervisors. So this is a

Unknown Speaker 30:16

a paper from Rudd center. thing go check that out. higher weight folks are less likely to be promoted be company CEOs and MB in client facing positions. So Sue, quote from this, this is a work this is a weight bias in the workplace a literature review. Qualitative reviews have concluded that individuals who are fat face weight bias and discrimination at every stage of the employment cycle, every stage of the employment cycle, these reviews have identified evidence for weight bias across a variety of evaluative outcomes, including selection, placement, compensation, assignments, promotions, assessments, discipline, and termination. So they've looked at all of these different studies, and they've pulled out what those studies have said. So there's a number of studies there. One of them, if we look at just I'm just looking at one of them here. It's called stigmatization of fat individuals by human resources, professionals, and experimental study. So what they did is they took 127 HR professionals, and 42% of HR, HR professionals disqualified fat females wait produced largest inequality in selection when choosing an individual for a supervisory experience, supervisory position, so the worst outcomes as when they were being selected for a managerial job. HR people said, No, thanks. We don't want the fatties. Okay. And so then it was talked about talked about this in New York about the discrimination laws. So we're out with laws to protect fat people. How many countries in the world have national laws to protect against weight stigma? Have a guess? Is it A, zero, B? One to five, or C? Six to 10? Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo? What's your answer? If you said A, you'd be correct, zero countries in the world have any size discrimination laws. So if that person can be terminated just because of their size, and there is no anti discrimination laws to protect them in Canada or any country in the entire world. But we do if you're in the US, good old US pulling through on this, us, Michigan and Washington, there is a law protecting fat folks from being fired due to size. And there's a few other places with protections. So there's no national laws. We've got a few, you know, cities, jurisdictions that have protections. Michigan and Washington have laws. If you live in Michigan and Washington and you're fat, yay, if you get fired for being fat, you sue them motherfuckers if you're fired for being fat, this is the way to go about it. Which I really don't like is to claim that fatness is a disability, and I know we're the last episode. You know, I mean, I could never do it. I could never do it because there's so much evidence of me saying fatness is not a disease. Imagine if I went to a court of law and was like, I'm fired because I'm fat and fat as as a disease and the opposing counsel would be like, Bitch, thanks, I look at your 50,000 7000 podcasts and posts about how it's not. I can't do it. But if that happens to you fatness as a fitness as a disability, but it won't always work in a lot of times it won't work, but that's the only recourse that that you have. And you have to prove that the employer for you and your body sizes as a disability like that you ask for accommodations due to your body size. So say for example, if you were you were like, No, you're working in Amazon factory. And you said, Hey, supervisor due to my weight, I would like to sit down for a portion of the day. And then the supervisor said I know that your fatness is a disability, but I have a disease but I'm not going to give I'm not going to allow you any accommodations. In fact, I'm going to fire you. And here I put it in writing for you. Then you can be like okay, no sounds like I can sue you for that. So just a heads up on that. I mean, I hate that we don't have things protecting us on body size. And the one in New York was is size and height, which I think is really important too. As we can see from the studies, short kings, short men paid less. Okay, it's good. Okay, so a random of the stats because I said a lot of stuff there, fat people are less likely to be hired in the first place. A 2017 survey found that when 500 hiring professionals were shown a picture of a larger bodied woman, only 15.6% of them said that would hire her fat people are paid less fat people are paid between 9020 $2,000 less a year than their smaller counterparts. They are also given pay increases less frequently and then smaller colleagues. Fat people experience greater amounts of bias in the workplace. According to research, over 40% of people with high body weight report that they have experienced weight bias from employers and supervisors. Lack of visibility and promotion, higher weight folks are less likely to be promoted, be company leaders and be in client facing positions. I'm gonna make a post with all those stats in them. So you don't have to frantically write them down or anything. And by the way, I haven't mentioned this in a while just a heads up, we have a transcript for every episode of the podcast ever. And we're up to up to 159 now so if you ever want a transcript, go to the shownotes. And there you have it, we've we've done that. Okay, so that's the stats. Let's hear your stories. I want to hear your stories. All right, so I asked in my Instagram stories. What what's it like being fat work? What have you experienced in the way of discrimination? So we've got some like short little answers, and then we've got longer messages. First one, making us do quote, health screening, including BMI measurement for our insurance. Yeah, that's fucked up. And obviously this is not every country in the world because not every country has insurance tied to employment. But a lot a lot of places a lot of people do that is their reality that insurance companies will will deny people insurance work so insurance you get from your workplace and will be denied insurance because of their weights and will get discounts etc for having a lower weight. Next, weight loss challenges at work disguises health a boss who openly made fat jokes. This is the one that really gets on my flaps is weight loss challenges like I'm like, why has no one got a fucking clue? This could be harmful even if they were like, well, we want fat people to get thin even if they hate it or fat people. Can they not even consider that there are people who have a previous history of disordered eating disorders that you know if they can only extend compassion to thin people that there are thin people who might have that history. So like fucking get a clue like Jesus. It's so embarrassing. So 2002 chairs not made for that people lunch room tables and chairs that were in a fixed position. Weight Watchers at work oh, clients developing fat phobic wellbeing programs. I don't even bring food to work anymore because someone will comment. It's fucked up. Can you imagine what you eaten? Did you know Lola has got so many calories? Oh, you shouldn't eat call jets anymore. They've got toxins called yet what do you call it in North America? Zucchini Hmm I think I prefer the name cause yet because it really lines with what a closure is it's like a phone calls yet. core core sounds foamy? That's what kosher is. It should be put in the fucking trash can because they're fucking disgusting calls Yes. hate that shit. Anyway, I work in a female dominated workplace it's constant diet talk. It's so hard. Promoting diets and weight loss endlessly work life balance equals discounts at gyms. Yeah, I remember when I was like, I can't believe they don't give us give us free membership to Weight Watchers and discounts the gym when I was in my dieting fat phobic stage. I was like it's outrageous. If I had had any power at any company, it would be the most fat phobic fucking place ever. When I was in my dieting. I'd be like making motherfuckers like, do all sorts of shit. Thank God I never had any power. I just ruined the lives of the people around me. Continuing they took away full fat milk. There are signs everywhere about how to lose weight. Women's uniforms don't come large enough men's quote will do. No they won't do it. Give me a fucking uniform so I can do my job. Women saying at least I lost weight as a benefit of getting seriously ill.

Unknown Speaker 40:10

Diet taught people literally saying fat people are disgusting Hellfest attitudes, general treatment fatties tend to be overlooked and not taken seriously. Yes. Okay, so here's your your longer comments. I worked at a youth center and had to deal with a lot of anti fat comments from staff. People refusing food because they quote didn't want to be a fatty or talking about their latest diet had to address at a staff meeting, I was crying, recounting how de human dehumanizing people were being. Also my clothing was covered, covertly policed by someone in leadership for being unprofessional. It was fully because I was fat, and she didn't like that I wore close fitting clothes. I'm very open with my colleagues about fat phobia and my commitment to fat acceptance. One time my boss asked me if a chair in her office was comfortable for me. And it wasn't so I told her, and we got me another chair. So another chair, she's in a thin body. So for her to even think to ask me meant so much. On the flip side, they're indifferent. Right? There is a word conference in Europe this summer. And I probably can't go because it will be too complicated as I need two seats. So that sucks. Two seats on the flight. Yeah, so actually, that one I should have read last I asked people have you had fat positive experiences at work? And this was the only one out of all of the messages I got. That was the only one that then you know, ends with a side of fat phobia of not being able to go to a work conference. Someone says, Does it count as discrimination if you can't consistently get scrubs in an appropriate size? If so, then yes, yes, it is discrimination if you cannot have the equipment that you need, aka combs to work. Blaming fatness for a health outcome, blaming lack of control or laziness on weight, being unwilling my perception or unable due to staffing levels, to provide the same basic care as you could would for a straight sized or thin person. So that person works in health care. This person says like it's a fucking disgrace. Like no matter how amazing people can be to patients and families, there's still a judgmental undertone. And I worry if that transpires into care, caring for a fat body has different challenges. I work in ICU. So issues around movement and skinfold care both come to mind. It's disappointing to be able to think of multiple examples of break room or handover chat between professionals, which is so degrading. I remember when I had my I had my organ do it because I haven't removed gallbladder when I had my gallbladder out, waking up from recovery, and the nurse had like, ripped back the covers. And I was completely naked. Because she was looking at my wounds in a room full of people who, and there was people, like a bunch of healthcare providers over there nurses or whatever, send around laughing and stuff, and they weren't laughing at me. But they were like to having a conversation. And it was it was just like, that was just so that's how I woke up. And it felt so uncaring. And and that's because she thought that I was asleep, right that she was like It felt aggressively pulled the pulled my cover up and pulled my gown off or whatever. I don't know how if the gown was already up or something I don't know. Anyway. No, that's no, no, that's not I don't think that was fatphobia. And I remember it was who knows? Yeah, so. So hi, Vinny and team regarding our story. I working in a nursing home for intensive care patients. I've been working there for more than five years now. And to this day, I have to work in my personal clothes because they won't provide fitting work clothes for me and two other fat colleagues. When the COVID testing centers opened here in Germany and staff were desperately needed. I wanted to help and work there, but I couldn't because they didn't provide perfect protective overalls. For fat people. They told me to wear a gown made of permeable fabric in which not all of my body would have been protected. While the straight size people got the overalls. So I declined because I didn't want to risk my health. Other than that, there's loads of diet talk at my workplace, which is annoying as fuck. Also, there's a lot of fat phobia regarding our patients. For example, there was one patient who gained weight and was then put on a diet. She was fed via gastric tube which is common for a lot of our patients. So the doctor just reduced the amount Have tube feedings she received for months, she only received 500 to 1000 calories a day. That is such little that that is such little calories. She of course lost a lot of weight and everyone was happy when she lost enough weight. She then received more tube feeding again and regained some weight which made a lot of colleagues want to restrict her input again, I advocated for her and then that didn't didn't happen. But no one understands that you can't just starve people for as long as you want. It's quite difficult to determine whether patients feel hungry or not, respectively. They often fight times don't feel hunger at all. But still 500 or 1000 calories per day is just not enough for an adult. No, not even close. Thank God that this person was there to advocate for that. That patient. By the way, I didn't ask specifically for health care stories I said any jobs but it's interesting to show how health care is where a lot of this stuff is happening. Okay, so high topic fatphobia at work, my boss is demand after an addiction prevention talk down in their office that I bring a kind of certificates from my GP saying I don't have a food addiction. This kind of talk is for addictions where your senses are impaired. So you can't take proper care of the people with disabilities that live in that home. Let me just re state what this person is saying. They work an environment where they look after people with disabilities that live in their home. There was a addiction prevention talk at their office then their bosses demanded that the employee bring a certificate from their doctor to say that they are not addicted to food because they have a fat body because apparently one food addiction is real it's not and two fatness is called caused by having a food addiction. Which three, that even if fatness was caused by a food addiction and food addiction was a thing that it would mean that you are impaired and you cannot look after a patient or client so I message back saying What the actual fuck question exclamation times 100 This is horrifying. food addiction isn't real and they presumably target you because they presumed that you're addicted to food due to your size. What in the fuck is wrong with these people? Did you have to get quote proof that you're not a food addict? Or did they come to their fat phobic senses? This person responded I got a certificate from my GP that I am perfectly psychologically and physically conditioned to fulfill all my duties and she was appalled that they demanded such a paper. But then she went on to tell me that I really should do something about my size. Yay. Yeah, when Samuel looser my boss's least never tried to walk that road again. I want to go around this person's fucking workplace and just roundhouse kick. All those bosses in their fat phobic fucking faces. German is egregious. I just and then the doctor just say that's fucked. But you are fat. Oh, wow. Have you tried not being fat? Wow. Like picking sand in your face when you're down? Shit, that's fucked. Okay, I hear so many conversations about diet and weight at work. Some of this is relevant and productive as I work with elite athletes and we have registered dieticians on staff. But I have many colleagues who are not certified or trained to work with food and nutrition who talk about wanting to lose weight going on diets, quote, cheat days or being quite bad for eating, drinking certain things, etc. It's never been negatively directed at me. But I will tell you it makes me very uncomfortable to exist here being fat. I often feel out of place or that somebody's view some people view me as lesser because of my size. They are also noticeably noticeable gender differences in attitudes about size and weight. And so I asked them about this like what does she mean about the gender differences and and this person said that the male athletes they are more letting them eat more and less hard than they are on women athletes. So next story I just started working in a primary care clinic. Of course our health care system is rooted in fat phobia. However, I didn't expect the water cooler talk to be so heavy on the weight loss dieting Hating Your Body Talk. One tall thin women woman was complaining about the accuracy of our Fitbit in terms of calories burned. And I said, doesn't really matter. What's important is that you moved your body and did something good for it. Her response was,

Unknown Speaker 50:06

actually it does matter because I'm counting calories. The next day, she was showing herself showing off herself in a bikini from last year. And from this year, see last year, I mean, I was thin, but still a little Pudge. Look at me now. And everyone says, Great work. I'm so proud of you. And I sit there in my wonderfully fat body, enjoying what I eat, and how I move and not feeling I need validation from others in the shape of before and after photos. For my worth. Beautiful. Beautiful last sentence. I sit there in my wonderfully fat body. Yeah, I'd love it. If someone I'd love it if a tall thin woman showed me a before and after bikini picture. She would not get any. Anything from me. I'd be like, I'm sorry, I don't stand. What do you mean? Oh, you think you look better? Because you have a smaller body? Why is that? I don't understand. Do you not like fatness? Is there something wrong with being fat? Is there something wrong with my buddy? Like, he would she would be regret showing that shit to me. And I get like, I get it. I'm not at your job, right? I'm not the one who has to sit there and try and not get fired. I would be coming in as an imagination fantasy character. Someone who doesn't get it give a shit who is not going to get fired by the boss who can just magically come in and be like, poof, fuck you. And off I go in real life. You know, if you're in an office, you can't be like, shut the fuck up. Karen or, you know, shut up, Tracy with your fucking bullshit. Because you know, Tracy's gonna be like, That fat person's bullying me, because they're jealous that I'm thinking, you know, or something like that. So yeah, just take it, take it take a deep breath. Because you know, all them stories is know that stats is a lot, adds a lot of discrimination. So again, if you're if you're in a workplace, and you know that they might be open to this stuff, or even if that not feel free to pass on my details. One of the presentations I do is detangling anti fat bias in the workplace. I talk about language, I talk about making the location accessible to people. I talk about, you know, all of those stats, I talk about how well if, if that bias is so bad, why don't just fat people just become thin. So I talk about how that's not possible. And I talk about how to make a place welcoming for fat people. And honestly, I'm surprised by how positive like in the last I think I mentioned this before in the last while how previously, you know, maybe four years ago it felt very people are like fuck you Vinny for being here talking to us about fat stuff. Whereas now it feels more. Oh, tell me more. What is weird? Is Strange. Lights. So you know, maybe times are changing and shit. That's not everywhere, right? That is not everywhere. There's lots of places where I mean, there's all these stories. I would love to go to these workplaces and blow these people's minds. Even if it the only person who benefits is the the one fat person who is fat positive who's like Yeah, fuck you all your fucking beggars. Now there's someone in here telling you what giant assholes you are. That would be good when it wouldn't be satisfying. Oh, I'd be so satisfied if I if I didn't do this. And I just worked on worked in like, I didn't have a job that was related to factory ism. And then someone came in and spoke about their stuff. I'd be like, so smug. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So in one of those, all of those resources, almost every single one of those studies, I spoke about how fat phobic language, one of the most frustrating ones was the the one where it was about the 500 hiring managers and only 15.6% of them would hire a fat person. They had a section of how to mitigate the bias. And they said you have to tell people how you're not lazy and that you are a hard worker and that you have to kind of tell them that you're the you're the opposite of what their biases are. And I was like Barkoff really? Because the answer is don't be a beggar. The answer is don't discriminate. And yeah, I mean, I get it like we want to get the job. But I don't think the advice to the general public public about anti fat bias is make yourself a more a more appealing fatty, be a good, fatty. I did an episode on the good fatty bad fatty dichotomy. Good fatty is a fat person who performs a role that society finds them more palatable in. And there's nothing wrong if you happen to be a quote, good, Fatty, it's not a thing. Really. It's just the way society views fat people, a good fatty as a fat person who was trying to lose weight, who is self depreciating, who says I'm so sorry for being fat. I'm a lazy piece of shit. You're right. Please help me be thin. I'm trying to be thin. A band fatty is someone who says, I'm not interested in weight loss, and I'm happy the way that I am. And everything that goes along with that. So a good fatty could be an athlete. And so a fat athlete could have nothing to do with being a good, Fatty, they could be like, Fuck you, I never want a diet. But the fact that they're an athlete means that they are given a quote, pass. Because they are seen as an Elisa trying to be thin. I mean, they could just be like, I'm not trying to be thin. I'm just trying to be a fucking Worldstar athlete. Go on, I listened some, you know, I read like I watched you like watching heavy, strongest men shows the strongest, strongest, heaviest weight lifted by a woman, this beautiful fat black woman whose flat 40 Ah go watch the video, just Google strongest heaviest weight lifted by a woman and just go see that fucking app root lifting. I don't know how many pounds a lot, like at least 20 shopping bags, bags filled with groceries. And the groceries are like pints of milk. So heavy, heavy weights. Yeah, and seeing that far out. And she and she's not like about I think she didn't and whatever. And so people might view her as well Elise, she's contributing because she's trying to lift weights or whatever, or someone who happens to like running, or someone who happens to eat a salad one time, but then if that same fat person, then you know, is it in something which is not seen as healthy, then then there'll be a bad day. So you can swing from bad and good, fatty or you know, within 10 minutes. It's a way that that society views fat people. So it's not roles that that fat people take, although we can perform in those roles for ourselves, or for our safety example, being hyper feminine. Fat folks are seen as you know, sloppy and lazy and so, to protect ourselves sometimes fat femmes will play with with gender so that they are less targeted. And not because they necessarily want to and of course, a lot of people want to because it's fun or whatever, but some people don't want to but they do it because they they feel like they need to to be seen as a little bit more put together than they would if they were just thin they could they'll just thin they could walk around with covered in fucking human feces and people be like fashion. Oh my God said. She said beautiful. You know, a fat person can be walking around, like covered in fucking diamonds. And, you know, and people be like, she looks a bit scrubby, you know. And it's just because of body size. Anyway, how why did I go onto this fucking tangent to know? Do you know? Do you remember why go on this tangent. Listener? That remember? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. About the thing. Like, this advice was to be a good fatty in job interviews. And I mean, yeah, if you want to do that, whatever, but I don't. But you know, I'm saying that with a lot of privilege. I work for myself, so I don't have to deal with that fucking bullshit. Well, thanks for hanging out with me today. Don't forget if you're thinking about going to Kofi to donate to subscribe. I would be delighted delighted. It would be delicious. If you did a five month subscription so that we can keep the podcast advert free. You don't want to be listening to no shit. The adverts halfway through at the beginning at the end. No. You just want the sultry sounds of me talking. Right? Right. Right. Do you maybe like fuck off? I don't I'm never going to listen to this podcast again. Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let's Okay, next podcast. Let's have a go next podcast. So we've got nine subscriptions. Okay. $55 a month subscription value. Let's see if we can get it to. Okay, here's a goal for next time. 15 Will you help me get there to 50 In the next episode?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

Oh my goodness 15x update active subscriptions Okay, let's see how much would that then be? My math skills is so bad that would be $85 a month if you did $5 I kind of sounded like a zebra that didn't I you know, the sound of zebra as a that's pretty good, isn't it? I can have a career in impersonating zebras. I don't want to stop fucking talking about shit. Thanks for hanging out with me today show notes space for a.com forward slash 159 It's always the episode number. Or you could always just go to podcast and you'll find that shit for all the links to everything and then check out social media in the next little bit for a roundup of all of these studies in case you want to share it and be like fuck you pay me. Yeah, so thanks for hanging out. See you next time. See you in a while alligator stay face batty. Good boy.

Episode 158 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 158 fatness as a disease and oh word medicines giant flaws. Let's do it

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Hello, welcome to our episode today I'm your host Vinny Welsby. My pronouns are they them? I mean Vancouver which is the traditional ancestral and ceded territory of the Coast Salish people, Squamish, slaver tooth and Musqueam nations Welcome to the show. I feeling like I have a vulnerability hangover from the last episode where we had mummy on. Especially because I was watching Blackbird on Apple TV. It's about a presumed serial killer. And someone who is serving a long sentence who's who's been sent to the prison, the presumed serial killer is in and tries to get him to reveal where he's buried bodies. Anyway, and so he's pretending to be his friend, even though he's totally creeped out by him. It's really good. It's only six episodes. But yeah, I'd recommend checking it out anyway.

Unknown Speaker 1:32

It's called Blackbird. The serial killer was like, Do you want to have sex with your mummy? And the guy was, like, disgusted and was like, mother.

Unknown Speaker 1:50

Like, hang on, it's even more discussed the days and money or the more disgusted about the other thing. And I was like, Oh, God. That's it. You know? Because I'm because I call Mummy mummy. And I know, I know. So for some people that might be really weird. And so I'm just like, Oh, God, everyone thinks I'm really weird. Everyone thinks this that and whatever. Why is my brain like this? No, I'm not a serial killer. Just because I call my mom mummy. Many people land isn't it so funny where our brains go? Like, people are so creeped out by you that basically you're a serial killer. It's my brain is like, and the other side of my brain is like, nothing at all. And then that brain is shaming me is like, yes, they are. Oh my god, did you it will. Anyway, so yeah, fun times. So hey, in the last few episodes, I've been telling you about cofee, which is kind of like Patreon. But better because they don't take as much money from the creators. And I said that to create the podcast, it takes 690 bucks a month basically, roughly it cost me 170 bucks per episode to produce the show. And that doesn't factor in my time or labor. And so shoot four shows a month. That's an average of 680. And so to sustain the podcast with no adverts, if you can subscribe on Ko, Fi that would be incredible. And so far, we have had $235 Come in. However, most of those are one offs. And so that means like you can either just buy me a coffee, which is five bucks, or you can subscribe which is five bucks. You also get if you subscribe, the size diversity Resource Guide, which is a 37 page guide with all the fat positive people to follow or the books to read where to shop, secret fat community Facebook groups to join science, Ted Talks, everything podcasts that I say that and it's wind is one big resource guide that I have been taking years to create. You literally may me and my my virtual assistant together. Anytime I see any type of resource, I send it to her and she updates the spreadsheet. It is a labor of love and so literally years of resources has been poured into this and you can have it for five bucks. Amazing. Go to Koh fi.com forward slash First party. And then there's the option to just do the $5 one time or $5 ongoing and so so where we're at so far is I've got 185 one off, and 50 bucks subscriptions and so 50 bucks ongoing every month I got the one off a lot because I think a lot of people liked the we go views and pick post. And so they sent sent coffee filat, which is a wonderful honestly, like, in the little notes that people are sending is just so nice. Love it. Oh, I love it. Love it. Also, I'm thinking about adding other perks. There are other perks actually, like get shout on social media and get a card from me in the post, things like that. But even more and I'm thinking of releasing the podcast on cofee a week early. And then everyone else can have it a week later. I don't know, blah, blah, blah. Who knows if you want to support me? And that's something that that's available for you wonderful. If not, and you're just like, shut up. I just want you to free content. That's fine, too. But it would be it would mean a lot to me. If if if we could make it so that the podcasts supported itself and get to 680 bucks a month and that is we're at 50 recurring. So let's do it. I'll give you another update in a month. Okay, so I won't talk about it for a month. Okay. Aha, okay. Okay. So, as I mentioned, my I did a couple of posts, we had the two part episode on we go V slashes Empik slash semaglutide. Slash, or the other weight loss drugs, whatever, two part episode. So I put two posts out on Instagram, if you didn't see those posts, and you've just listened to the episode and you want a roundup of everything that I was talking about, not everything because it was like three hours of content, but you know, a roundup of the key concepts, then go to my Instagram, first dot fatti. And you will see that there. So we got a lot of responses from people being like, oh my god, this is fucked up. And oh my god, this happened to me. Lalalalala and a someone from the Pittsburgh Gazette. Let's see, is it Pittsburgh post the episode Pittsburgh Post Gazette, a science journalist reached out to and who was doing an article on as Empik we go V. Lola. So she reached out, she reached out, I said, Send me the questions. Because I don't I don't necessarily like doing interviews, voice interviews, because I have less control with people I don't have a relationship with or, you know, especially a journalist, because sometimes I'm worried because of my experience with the baby show that I could say something that could be taken out of context, and then twisted and used to harm the fat lib community. And so I really want every single word to be thought about. So that it can't be, you know, like, I mean, I was gonna say something like you say something ridiculous. And then in which is, you know, not even something that you're saying, but they pieced together words. And it's like this, this is what this is they that person has said. And it just you're like, Well, hang on. I didn't say that. But then. Yeah, anyway, so I wrote a response to her to the questions. I really appreciate the questions. And I appreciate the chance for this for a fat activist to be in the Pittsburgh Gazette, or to be in any media when people are talking about ozempic because what we found out in an episode a few episodes ago was that fat bias is are rampant in the media. And so when people are talking about things to do with fat people, they go to quote, unquote, oh, word medicine experts, experts, who are thin people who want to erase fat people from the planet because they think that they are diseased and terrible. And they don't talk to fat people and they don't talk to fat activists. And so this is a journalist doing it right. Hopefully, I don't know what the article is gonna say the journalist is a straight sides person, and is a science writer and so that obviously there's everyone has bias and so I don't know the amount of her bias but I'm hoping that an hoping it's like a critical piece. This is my dreams. These are my dreams. I'm dreaming. I'm dreaming and dreaming. Who knows, you know, the peas might come out and they say, Fuck fat people. Let's, let's kill them all with with we govi. Anyway, so I'm going to share with you the questions and answers because I mean, I don't want to brag, but I felt really good about the clear communication and break down of these big topics into kind of smaller sound bites. And she's not going to quote it all. Obviously, it's like three pages of Jesus. six pages Jesus. six pages. Obviously not it's not always her questions as well. of things around the idea that fatness is a disease and Oh, word medicine and the floors around that. In case your gorgeous noggin is thinking But hang on a minute, this is what I've seen. And I've seen doctors say that it's not fat people's fault that they're fat and use liberatory language and so should I then learn from them? Or should I then follow what they're saying? Because it's kind of confusing. It's really confusing and some, some people have like fallen into that whole year. fatness is a disease because if we say fatness is a disease, and it's really helpful in the law. So anyway, I'm gonna read the questions. And then I'm going to read you my answers and then give you some links to science and talk about some some extra things and blabbity Bloop, bloop. Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 11:51

first question, talk to me about your work with educating employees on implicit bias and weight based discrimination. What is the main message you hope to get across? What are people's typical responses starting out versus when they finish the training? So in case you don't know, something I do, aside from talking to myself on a podcast is I go into companies I don't go in, it's all virtual, I'll pretend to go in and talk about anti fat bias. I love it. I also talk to, you know, organizations or groups of people or, you know, like, say a group of dieticians, or whatever. And so this is my response, the responses are generally positive, some people struggle to come to terms with the idea that the weight centric health paradigm is deeply flawed, whereas others realize how much bias they hold, and are excited at creating more positive experiences and interactions with fat folks. People are asking for this training more and more as organizations now better understand that anti fat bias is a huge problem. And something that has not been addressed before in meaningful ways, and actually been encouraged. Imagine this is me talking? Well, it was me talking before but imagine you're, you know, the average company, where everyone is, you know, around the corner being like, Oh, my God, have you tried this diet? Lala, I guess I fat or whatever. And then you have a trainer that comes in that talks about anti fat bias. A lot of the people are going to be like, what, what are they talking about, of course, diets work. And that's going to be difficult for people. Like remember when you were in diet culture. And if someone came to you and said, Hey, by the way, there's no way to make yourself smaller. You'd be like, fuck off. Galloway, don't be silly. Of course, there is glossaries. I mean, I've tried 50 times in my life, and I've managed to make myself temporary, temporarily thinner all of those times. So don't be silly. And then the idea that you can be fat and just live your life that is very, very difficult. Whereas, you know, a few years ago, I felt like people were more kind of like, fuck you. Whereas now people are more like, make sense to the people who were kind of on the fence and more like, Okay, makes sense, because I feel like we're being exposed to the message more and more that diets don't work. It's not as wildly radical it is still is wildly radical, but as as you know, like five years ago, which is great. And so now, we're seeing a lot of people being like, well, this is fucked up. We should stop doing this, which is awesome. So my main message with trading is basically it depends. Everyone's training is different, like some people want to focus on this about, you know, different things. But my message is, there's 100 years worth of data showing us that there is no reliable way to lose weight long term. You cannot tell a person's health status from their body size. Even if fat people could lose weight and I All of them are unhealthy, they still deserve access rights and belonging. So that's the thing is, is I will say that, you know, listen, I know, some people cannot absolutely 100% Doesn't matter, but what the evidence say they can't get behind the idea that it's not possible to lose weight, and that fat people can be healthy. And so that's, that's wrong, say it's fine. It's not fine, but, you know, whatever they can't get by on that, but but the, even if fat people could easily lose weight, and they're choosing not to because they're like, you know, some evil person who's like, Ah, I'm gonna drain the world of resources in order to be fatter need everyone and raw, you know, even if fat people were like that. By the way, for happy we don't have some master plan to drain the resources of the world. Even if we were like that fat people still deserve belonging, access rights, etc, right? Because when people anti fat bias stems from anti black racism, ableism and health ism or so. Protestant Reformation make your workplace welcoming for fat people because a huge population of the workforce is fat, alone your own fat phobia, because we all have it. And finally, anti fat bias is say 9097 Let's do better. Sir. 1997 It's so old school. It's so I just I'm just like, it's are we still talking about this? Like, are we still are people still talking about this? And I know like, I felt like I might be a little bit out of out of touch with the realities of, of the day to day world because I live in my own bubble of fat positivity. And I don't have co workers who, you know, because it's just me and Dougal Duggal doesn't talk about going on diets. He just says can I want? How can I have a cuddle? Give me some treats, whatever. He never talks about diets. I love him for that. So, you know, I feel like it's really just, I mean, it is old school. But of course, it's still so many people talking about it, because it's simple, but pervasive. So okay, so the next question from the journalist, what led you to do a deep dive into the Olympic study, and I said, people are asking me about it. And I love digging into the details behind flashy headlines. I also saw a lot of influencers talking about it. And I worried that people consuming that content would feel pressurized by anti fat buyers, and social media and doctors to take something without understanding the risks or outcomes. So something that I saw I thought that was really alarming is fat influences who many people presumed was fat were fat positive, taking as Empik or weak, Ovie further weight loss. And that was, to me, people felt like it was a breach of trust. For me, I mentioned this before, unless someone that explicitly states they are fat, positive, fat, liberation, you know? How for every size even then, you know, you don't know, unless they explicitly say, I think that people deserve equal access rights, etc. I know that diets don't work the Lella then you don't know that reverse and is really what they think even if they are fat. And so we can't be surprised, then if someone then starts saying, Hey, let's go on a diet or whatever. Unless they explicitly say that they are fat positive. Unfortunately, and and I think that's really difficult for people if we're following someone, and we think we presume we know them and know what they are thinking. And then they do something, which is the opposite of what we presume that they are thinking it can be very distressing. And that we see that a lot when fat celebs lose weight. It's very difficult. And again, people can do what they want, right that people use their bodies. But there's that sadness, and also being like more they're doing it maybe she lie. So anyway. Okay, so then, her name was Hannah, the interviewer Hannah asks, I have some specific study questions in your Instagram post on the drug. You mentioned that it was ineffective because participants gained weight back after stopping as Empik. I asked a few doctors who work with patients with Oh word about this. And their response was that this evidence helps support the notion that oh word is a complex and chronic disease similar to any other chronic chronic disease like high blood pressure, or cancer, patients who stopped taking blood pressure medication also find that their BP climbs back up. Okay, so that's that sentence, that paragraph, you would potentially hear that and be like, Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, well, these o word doctors, they're looking out for me. They're not blaming me. They're saying there's something wrong with fatness as a disease mechanism happening. And it's not that I'm great, greedy, and lazy and an awful person. So I can understand how someone could read that and be an absolutely be like, okay, because it's not like, Hey, Fatty, you're a piece of shit. That would be like, Oh, fuck you. This is offering a sense of kindness, almost right. And it comes from a doctor. Oh, my goodness. So they must know about what is the disease? So it's beginning to make sense. But how would you hold them horses? So in my response, this evidence shows exactly what we know about weight loss in interventions for the last 100 years. manipulating your body size does not work long term. Even if you keep taking we go V for weight loss, the weight begins to come back on at week 60, which is exactly what the weego V study showed. So notice how

Unknown Speaker 21:49

it in that question, we're ignoring the fact that you keep taking the drug and then you you stop, your weight begins to come back on. And then then they're referred then referring to there was a follow up study, that people who stopped taking it two thirds of their weight was back on within a year. And so there's the doctor saying, well, well, we you need to keep taking it forever, because this shows that it's a disease. And what I'm saying is it just shows that our bodies do not want to be artificially manipulated to to be smaller, and will fight back he even when they're taking the drug. He even if you continue with the diet, even if right. We go read of Novo Nordisk the manufacturers own study showed this. And then they're like, so at 60 weeks, people started gaining weight 68 weeks, I cut it off, because then the club was going up, and they need to cut that shirt off, because presumably, it would keep going up, up, up, up up, and it would show that their medicine is ineffective. And also a lot of people don't lose any weight at all. Okay, so this exact same pattern we have seen over and over again, it doesn't prove that fatness is a disease, it proves that human bodies do not like to be starved, and have their weights artificially manipulated. So, Hannah highlighted that last sentence. And I think that's probably the the only sentence in all of this that's going to be quoted. Who knows? So does the fact that people fail to lose weight. On we go V rather, they said, Does the fact that people gain weight when they stop taking we go we prove that fatness is disease, my answer is no. Also, another thing to think about with diseases that need long term management. So number one, so another thing to think about with diseases that need long term management, number one, there are long there is long term data on the interventions for real diseases. And it has been designed or decided that the potential harm does not outweigh the benefits. So for any for any condition. You can say, Okay, well, here's a medicine, here's an intervention, here's whatever, that will help you with that. Okay, and so what is the harm of that? So say, if I have had a headache, and someone came along and said, Have you heard of the guillotine, actually, we could chop that head off, and you would no longer feel that pain of the headache. So I would say that intervention seems like the benefits don't outweigh the harm, because I would be going around without my head. I don't need my head. I mean, I'm very amazing with my head. And so then, you know, people would decide, okay, the guillotine is not a good solution for headache, he'll break out we take a paracetamol Uh huh. Okay seems like the, the, the risks don't outweigh the benefits. So, too, we don't have long term data on weego V, or ozempic. In high doses for weight loss in non-diabetics. Three, we're also making the presumption that the side effects of we go V are worth it for the low temporary weight loss. I don't believe it is, especially when we know it does little to improve health and a lot to risk health. So as I mentioned, in my we go the episode that in Canada, as an example, it has not been approved for public health plans, because they said that there is no indication that it improves health. Okay, so there is no indication that has any type of meaningful improvement to health. Also, an eight I love that they separated health and weight, there is that low weight loss amount. And then so that's if we need to think about a pair of scales, you know, like the old scales with one weight on one side and weight another. And so we have, on one side, we have low weight loss, and no real improvement to health. Okay, so that's weighing that one side down. On the other scale, we have all the side effects, and so well, okay, well, there might be a teeny, tiny improvement to health. And people might be happy with that low weight loss. So that's the quote, benefits. And so on the other side, we have 95% of people experiencing side effects 10% of people experiencing severe side effects, a blackbox warning, and so all of that stuff, and you know, I'm just summarizing. And so now, you put that stuff on the other side of the scale, that's bone all the way down. And so there's not that balance to say, Okay, it's worth the risk. Because we've seen good outcomes, many people say it is worth the risk, because being fat is so abhorrent that it's worth risking the life of that fat person to make them temporarily, slightly smaller. And that's because the person operating those scales has fat bias in their brain. And so on that on that other side with the the suppose it benefits add on another piece, which is fat bias, then in their mind it levels out. And they're like, Okay, well, it's fine to go ahead. So number four in this point is, do other interventions for real diseases start failing at 60 weeks, even when you keep taking them. And then after that, what is the solution? So you know, obviously not every medicine is perfect and not, you know, you might try something if you have a high blood pressure, and it might work for a little bit and then might not work and you try something else with this, like what what do we just say that, you know, you say if you have a pacemaker at six a week, sorry, it's not going to work anymore. What's the solution? You know,

Unknown Speaker 28:29

there's no other pacemakers, you know, what's the solution? Number five, how can that then be justifiable? How does that support the idea that fatness is a disease and not just a normal way to have a body?

Unknown Speaker 28:48

Okay, so then Part B of her question here is she says, They also said thinking of Oh word as a chronic disease, instead of quote, a character flaw helps reduce stigma and discrimination based on Wait, what are your thoughts on this? So I said, as something to be a disease, there needs to be a set of symptoms and signs in order to diagnose and treat the disease. For people with high blood pressure. For example, there needs to be evidence of blood pressure being elevated. If it is an if it's not treated. Quote, this is from the Mayo Clinic, it can lead to disability, a poor quality of life or even a deadly heart attack or stroke. Okay. For fat people, the only thing we have in common with each other is that we are fat. If we do not, if we do not have the set of symptoms that we all share, how can we treat treat this quote, disease What is the outcome, if we don't make fat people thin, every single fat person has a different outcome. Some fat people may die from diseases associated, and I'll come back to that associated in a minute with being in a bigger body, and others may never have any conditions or diseases associated with being in a bigger body. So with this, we're saying the only common characteristic is body size. And if we go back to the high blood pressure, so to diagnose high blood pressure, there has to be high blood pressure. And then the high blood pressure will cause these other symptoms, right. Something else that people in common who have high blood pressure have with each other is that they all have a heart. Right? So it's like saying, everyone with a heart has high blood pressure. Therefore, we should treat every person with a heart for the disease of having a heart, which could cause high blood pressure, or heart attack or stroke or whatever. And the only common thing is that they have a heart. Now, we don't do that. Because, of course, we wait to see if everyone who has a heart, if they have issues with that heart, some people who own a heart may never have issues with a heart. Some people own a heart might go on to have issues with their heart. But we don't preemptively put someone on medication for the condition of having a heart in case one day their heart is sick. And Regan Chasteen talks about this as in with sis men who are bought. And so I talked about this, if we are talking about if we're taking arbitrary characteristics of people's bodies and making them a disease, why don't we make baldness a disease? And so I linked to Reagan talking about this idea that the bald men have a higher risk of cardiac incidence, it would be absolutely silly and hilarious to say okay, well bald men have a higher risk of cardiac incidents, therefore, it's because of their bald head, let's make it make let's make baldness, a disease and we could give all the bald people wigs or hats. And then that would reduce their risk of cardiac incidents. Right? Of course, not, of course, there's correlation at play. So it turns out whatever makes sis men bald as the same thing that increases their their risk of cardiac incidents. I can't remember what it is, but there's something and so they've they, you know, scientists were able to to say, this is a characteristic of someone, and therefore, it's not the baldness is causing the cardiac incidents, something else is going on. Whereas with fat people, we say, we don't have evidence that fatness is causing this stuff. We don't we don't have that. We're not able to say A plus B equals C. We don't know that fatness that adipose tissue causes XYZ. And so fuck it, we're just gonna blame them. We're just gonna say it's it is we're just gonna get Okay. Let's not let's not look into what also causes fatness that could cause you know, adverse health outcomes. People have been doing that work, obviously, because we have data around that but what we know is that yo yo dieting aka dieting, marginalization, stigma, shame, and subpar health care or lack of access to health care, because when fat people go to the doctor, they totally lose weight can be attributed to poor health outcomes for fat people. But with fatness people are just like A plus B equals C if you disagree, then you will say Lee I did a little rhyme. So anyway, so I said before I'm gonna talk about associated so associated is really important. We don't have the evidence to show The adipose tissue causes poor outcomes for fat people. What we know is that dieting non evidence based care and stigma have clear connections to poor health outcomes. We also know that, quote, overweight people have reduced mortality compared to quote, normal weight people. And that is known as the obesity paradox, a paradox being hmm, turns out fat people don't die at these tremendous rates and naturally live longer than, quote, normal white people. This must be witchcraft. And then just to kind of quick thing on on mortality versus more mobility, you might have seen those two things and what they are and I just want to just I'm quoting here from Healthline more bility more bid ditzy is a state of having a specific illness or condition. While morbidity can refer to an acute condition, such as respiratory infection, it often refers to a condition that's chronic or long lasting, some examples could be diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, cancer, etc, etc. And so, you can have more than one morbidity at a time. And mortality refers to the number of deaths that have occurred due to a specific illness or condition. So number of deaths, mortality, mortality is deaths, morbidity is having a sufficient specific illness or condition. So you'd say comorbidity so this patient has three comorbidities, comorbidity, so they have asthma, they have cancer, they have high blood pressure, which increases their mortality rates. We can't say that about an individual patient, but let's say as a as a group. So someone who has the CO morbidities cancer, asthma and high blood pressure, have a more Tality rate because we've looked at the data I'm making this up. This is not true. I'm just giving an example we looked at the data that their mortality rates are x per 1000 Okay, so just in case that comes up and there's a big Houhai if you haven't, if you don't know this story already about the CDC came out with so you know, how are people are like, Oh, the leading risk of death is is now fatness, or the number one cause of cancer is fatness or the number two or whatever and then we're in it oh word epidemic and all this type of stuff. So this came out from a CDC report that said that we have 400,000 people dead a year because of fatness. And how did they get this number? How many people died? who happened to be fat? Oh fat person got hit by a bus? They died while fat therefore they died of fatness it wasn't the bus the bus had nothing to do with it. It was the fact that they were fat.

Unknown Speaker 38:42

A year later the CDC came out with a another study and said actually we fucked up we had some errors in our statistical analysis the number was wrong the number was really wrong. Um so in the next one it says that thus four Oh word overweight and obesity combined are estimates was 25,814 excess deaths. Big difference from the 400,000. Right. But the what's the phrase the horses left the car the the horse bolted from the car. The dog ran from the the horse whatever. It was out. It was a splashy headline. 400,000 people die every year is draining our economy fat people are awful. A year later 28,000 I will fuck that. That doesn't sound exciting and sexy and something that we can write papers. We can write and sell new newspapers luck that we did. Even today this perpetuates isn't it so hilarious not hilarious terrible awful, but you know, funny to think about these things that we know we can live with fatness is a leading cause of death Oh where did it come from? Oh a debunk study but it was corrected you know it's like the Popeye thing was spinach and Popeye would eat loads of spinach and and it just it just it just it just pervasive you know Spanish is filled with iron. Spanish Spanish does have iron but there was a mathematical error and they had the decimal point in the wrong place came out and they were like spinach is this food is gonna make you fucking Popeye and it just stuck you know, they came out later saying Oh, era the decimal point of the wrong blows. But people are like yeah, whatever spirit isn't spinach isn't magical. Of course it's nothing wrong with spinach but you know it's these these these these myths that that get the interesting or you know real no and then actually when we look into it like Oh Huh what and that one study buy it from the CDC CDC with all the terrible errors has caused so much so much hot links to these all of this stuff in the show notes by the way, what are we on what are we on we are what we are on 158 So facebook.com forward slash 158 for that stuff, okay, anyway, I think she I can talk about this stuff forever right all of these every single one of these points here is has a whole big thing that you can go off on. Okay, so baba, baba, BAM Bella, Bella and Bella Bella. Also also also also a disease is defined as, quote, any harmful deviation from the normal structure or functional state? That's a quote from Britannica. Dictionary. fatness This is me now is a normal way to have a body fat people have been around since the beginning of time. The earliest figurines found are often off fat people fatness is not a harmful deviation from the normal fatness is normal and what harms fat people is a rampant anti fat attitudes and quote treatments. Making fat bodies a problem that needs to be fixed, as they are presumed to be inherently in a disease state categorically does not reduce stigma. It does the complete opposite. So what the doc what the our doctors are saying is, if we make it a disease, if we all culturally know it as a disease, then people will not experience stigma because we will think it's not their fault. Those poor fatties. Bless them, it's not their fault that they're so horrible, will not reduce stigma, my opinions, it does a complete opposite. It means that fat people will still have their weight talked about as an issue. It means that we will be denied evidence based treatments, it means we will be subjected to harmful interventions like we go V and stomach amputation surgery and your wiring and whatever awful thing that is going to be introduced to the market moving forward. Jaw wiring. I linked to that that was the University of Otago in New Zealand collaborating with some British folks who made the dental ism device which was wiring fat people's jaw shut with magnets. And they they were like this is the best thing that's ever happened and they did a study on like three people for like three weeks or something. It was ridiculous and and it turns out the study authors

Unknown Speaker 44:15

owned the device. Yeah, and that was chi that was a couple of years ago. So

Unknown Speaker 44:21

these people I mean, they're still coming up with ways if we think fatness is a disease, it means that we can then get governments to pay for these devices to cure the disease. We do not need any module wiring we do not need any more stomach amputation. We do not need any more injections and pills and spells to make fat people thin. Because fatness is just a normal way to have a body. Health care providers who have zero lived experience and or no anti fat bias training from fat activists are telling other health care providers as long as they say it with a smile, and don't blame fat people about their bodies, then their patients won't experience stigma. How can that be possible when the whole premise of fat being a disease is based on fat stigma, and being pushed by drug companies and weight loss companies who want to sell the cure? I'm just impressed by my words. Like yesterday, you said that that was good. Hannah then asks, You brought up a good point in the study. In the post about the participant breakdown, I read the study and found a majority of the participants were white women, which the authors disclosed as a limitation in the discussion section. Why is it important to have diversity in trials like these? What are the consequences of not doing so my response, it's not going to be just white women taking the drug bipoc folks have a higher incidence of being in larger bodies. And alongside anti fat bias I also experienced racism and all the consequences of being violently marginalized in our society. It is theorized that bipoc votes have higher weights because of the stigma and oppression they experience. How is giving them non evidence based interventions which have not been thoroughly tested on people like them to treat a made up disease going to reduce that marginalization? Also, what about folks of other genders? What about trans and gender non conforming people? Who I didn't say what's the consequences? I've I've not done the research. And I didn't feel like doing research for the consequences. Because I mean, they can't be good. Right. Next question. Doctors I spoke to noted a shift in the past few years regarding language around weight in the clinical setting, for instance, shifting from quote, oh, word patient to patient with our word. Do you see a subtle change like this as effective in combating weight stigma? Why or why not? If not, what more could be done? Where are you seeing gaps in fat folks being heard and seen by medical providers? Likewise, in what ways? Does the media get this wrong or right? My answer, absolutely, it is not effective in combating anti fat bias. I'm just, I think I just need a moment for the Tom fuckery of this. Imagine a slur a stigmatizing word. And then people saying, ha ha, ha, it's gonna cause less stigma because we're going to put person with in front of that stigmatizing word. And it means that there are a person above the slur. Here's an here's an idea is an idea. How about we just removed that slot? Oh. And the reason is when we don't remove that slur is because if we were in medical settings, if we remove that slam, we say that obesity is not the right word to use. We are saying that obesity is an inappropriate way to talk about fat people because the BMI is flawed and fucked up and you are eugenicist tool. And the obesity is not a disease. And so those motherfuckers that the drug companies do not want people to have that realization. And so they are meeting them in the middle and being like, you know, just just saying, just saying outright that they have a word, that's mean, tell them that they're a person before the slur. And then they're gonna be like, thank you. Anyway, so that was just me going on around. This is what this is continuing on what what I said to Hannah, we have seen a shift in recent years because pharmaceutical companies have spent tons of money to market the idea of fatness as a disease. If being fat is not the fault of fat people, then they can make more money getting their interventions in the hands of unwitting healthcare providers who think they are doing best for their patients. They have co opted fat liberation language and messaging in their marketing. But, but one key word they don't want to lose is obesity. That would mean admitting fatness is not a disease and so they are leaning into using person first language which comes from the disability rights community. person first language is controversial in that community as many folks don't see their disability Here's something bad, and so prefer plain language, there is not a similar split in the fat liberation community. However, around the O words, for almost everyone, they are seen as powerfully harmful as they pathologize bigger bodies. The use of the O words has historically cause tremendous trauma to fat folks, they are so painful that we don't write them out and put them in quotation marks with Asterix. Of course, some people don't like to use the word fat as it has also been used to harm them. But those in the fat lib community have reclaimed it as a neutral descriptor. We should be listening to the activists with lived experience about what language to use, and not companies who are committed to making money harming us making us repeat customers, and at times killing us. If healthcare providers learned about weight bias from actual fat people in the fat liberation world, versus pharma companies or astroturf, obesity, advocate advocacy groups, which are just mouthpieces for pharma, then they would realize they are causing terrific harm to fat folks, when I'm sure that they are trying to do the opposite. Healthcare providers have biases too. And as soon as they understand that trying to solve weight bias by trying to erase fat bodies is violent, the quicker we can get to giving people in bigger bodies, the evidence based care they deserve. And just a pause here, if you're not familiar with astroturf advertigo advocacy groups, I want to give you a quote from my favorite reading Justine. Her piece on substack substack substract sub stack is substack when doctors education is really Pharmaceutical Industry Marketing Part One quote in the obesity summit lineup because so they had an obesity summit at this hospital. And some of the people who were there emailed Reagan was like you look at the people who were on the lineup, and they were all being paid by Novo Nordisk or some other drug manufacturing company anyway, so in the obesity summit lineup, in addition to taking a ton of money from industries whose products the summit promotes the speakers, who are physicians, have all pinned their careers to the body size as disease framework, including several who own weight loss clinics. One speaker was the president of the obesity Action Coalition. This is an astroturf organization that purports to be an advocacy group for higher weight people, but is in fact funded by an acting as a lobbying arm for the diet industry. Novo Nordisk is that Chief funder, so astroturf and so you know what we like to you know, the term grassroots grassroots organization and so they will position themselves as a grassroots but so astroturf turf is fake grass right in case you're not familiar with it. It's fake grass. So it's a fake organization. It might it's a real organization but the the it's not a grass roots you know, local communities coming together. It is something that's funded by the pharmaceutical companies to act as a lobbying arm because it's harder for Novo Nordisk is what Novo Nordisk be able to have someone on the panel have this presentation, people would say,

Unknown Speaker 53:59

that's probably conflict of interest. We hope people would say that conflict of interest, but we can have a quote, advocacy group on there, because they are, quote, advocating for fat people. We don't need to look up and look where they're getting their money from. Oh, it's 100%. No, we don't notice. Oh, so it's just a lobbying arm. And a little thing like that really helps companies to get in the door to so people people's suspicions are not aroused. Because they say, Well, it's an avid avid advocacy group, right? They just want to help the fat people. No, they just want to sell their shit and pretend that they don't have anything to do with each other. Okay, continuing. Not all healthcare providers are committed to anti fat bias. However, there are many who are fiercely fighting for the rights and health care of their fat patients and every day they do incredible work. work to reduce the harm that colleagues have caused, there will be a day when we look back at what we have done to fat people, and be ashamed and embarrassed for an overview on how the media gets it wrong. Check out this post. And so I had made a post which is, which was a summary of the bias and in in media because she said, How does media get it wrong? And basically, in a nutshell, they talk about they talk only to thin people who are advocating for the erasure of fat people, and people with credentials who are dedicated to that too. And they use stigmatizing language like the O word. And they talk about it in the context of health, versus the fact that fat people just do other shit versus, you know, need help for health? Next question. In your post, you mentioned that patients could not give informed consent. What did you mean by this? So I reply, because we only have 68 weeks worth of data on we go via and so we have no idea what the outcomes are long term, we can't fully consent when we don't have all the sufficient information. Also, from my anecdotal knowledge, most people are not being told the risk factors. Next, generally, what do you hope for in this sphere? What should the common reader know about anti fat bias? I said listen to actual fat activists from the fat liberation community, we have an incredible array of people to learn from fat doctors, fat dieticians, for athletes, and people who educate on the harms of anti fat stigma, who are not being paid by weight loss companies or manufacturers to name just a few. We all hold biases, even people who mean well, anti fat bias is not okay, but declaring fatness as a disease is not the way to go. Give fat people evidence based care instead of trying to shrink them. Anti fat bias hurts everyone no matter their size and learning it will help everyone. Fat liberation does not mean we want everyone to be fat and unhealthy. It just means we want fat people to have equal rights, belonging and access to get evidence based treatment when we need it to be free from bias and judgment to be treated like valuable humans because we are. And I'm sure that the common reader would think that is a fair ask. And then I've linked to a post I have made on Instagram that's quite popular, which is I need to change the wording on it. Actually, I say fat acceptance. I don't like that word anymore. Because acceptance is just saying, fine, we'll accept you versus liberation is more liberal Toru. And so what fat acceptance will it isn't believing everyone should be fat hating strict size people forcing everyone to find fat people are attractive, and quote, excuse to be quote, greedy, lazy or unhealthy, and, quote, a method to teach people to love their body, anti quote, health. What it is, is a social justice movement created to increase the acceptance of fat bodies and seeks to understand seeks to ensure fat people have equal rights and access as straight sides people so nefarious, right? Because I guarantee that people will read anytime anyone reads anything that talks about, maybe let's not hate the fat people, you know, you know, there's going to be motherfuckers up in these comments saying they're just glorifying I basically, they just want everyone to have sex with them. They just, they just want everyone to be unhealthy like them, they just want everyone to die. Just like we just want to get we just want to go to the doctor and be able to get treatment, you know, we just want to be able to live be alive and not be harassed. Like what just leave us alone. You know, basically, like people think that they hear fat liberation or hit or they hear a fat person have the audacity to try and say that they might be an equal human to a straight sized person. They imagine like what is it Ghostbusters? You remember Ghostbusters, and that was it like the Michelin man. Like they imagine this huge fat person stomping through the city and innocent thin people at the feet being crushed under the soul of this evil monster. As the fat chubby hands come down and grab up a handful of innocent thin people stuffing them into their mouths laughing and Probably lasers shooting from their eyes. And you know, there's a thin child crying mummy don't let the fat person get us. And then the fat Michelin person's like, Oh, I'm going to eat you and then swipes down and eats the poor child who said, And the sad thing people are just like, please a disclaimer, that's what these motherfuckers imagine right like that, you know, the world is going to be overrun with fat people who are who are not living in shape. And as the thing is that they're terrified that fat people don't know their place any more fat people need to be definitely ashamed of themselves. They need to know their place is underneath the good thin people who have their shit together because you are pathetic, a loser, greedy, Lella all that type of stuff. That's not true. But How dare a fat person say, Hey, can I get the same things that you're getting? thin person? How dare they say that? So we need to shame them back down. And that is what's going to happen to a lot of people reading this is like we need to shame those motherfuckers down how dare they ask for a quality? How dare they ask us not to hate them and torture them and kill them and tell them while that's happening, that they are an awful human piece of shit. Like that's very triggering for a lot of straight size people and of course, not every straight size person and a lot of people are going to read this and be like read the article whenever it comes out if I'm even quoted in it and be like, Huh, okay, you know, yeah. And hopefully I mean I don't think that line about hey, this is what this is what fat liberation is, is is gonna go into the piece but hopefully people have critical thinking capabilities if this is a new concept to them. Some people will some people won't Yeah, so finally Hannah says anything to add and so I say if someone chooses to take as Olympic we go V to lose weight, I want them to know this living in the world as a fat person is really hard, even harder depending on your level of privilege. And so it makes sense to take something that will maybe be temporary maybe that will maybe temporarily make you a little bit smaller for some relief. You were a victim of anti fat hate you are not a bad person. This is a systemic issue and you deserve evidence based treatment free from bias and then I said if you want an overview of lots of studies go here I don't know why the fuck I haven't spoken about this more than sure you know what I'm going to make this I'm going to make this a bonus in Patreon Yeah, wait science. So I'm going to make this is a huge spreadsheet of wage sweet science. I am going to make that a bonus in Patreon. Not Patreon fucking cofee. You know I mean, however. And so it has like links to the studies when they're released and and an excerpt you know, like what does the study talk about? And it has everything to do with like diets don't work. weight neutral healthcare does work. And all sorts of other stuff. It's fucking juiciest shet. So I'm going to make that a little thing of cofee. I'm going to do it before this episode comes out. So it's going to be on there. So go check that out. And that was all of the questions that she asked.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:56

And I think that was really fucking good. Okay, that was a that was a really good info in that. Yes, pat on the back there Vinnie. Yes, I feel good about that. Oh, hello, Seamus popping up. Oh, shame being like where you're gonna come back later and realize that there was a typo. There was an Aaron, you sent a word around. Okay, shame. Thank you. I appreciate you trying to keep me safe. But I've got this. It's all good. Shame. So if you do want to the size of as a resource guide, and also the huge fat science thing, then go to Code K, oh, dash f phi.com. Forward slash, fears. fatti forward slash tears. Or you can just go to the show notes. facebook.com forward slash 158. Or probably whatever you're listening on. If you scroll down, it's probably right there. I mean, I probably I don't know. I don't know where this shit goes. But it goes somewhere who knows? You can do it. You can find the links and links to everything else that I've spoken about today to share. Thanks for hanging out with me today. I appreciate ate it and I hope you have a wonderful rest of the day I'm really fucking hungry so I'm gonna go eat something and then go pick up my neighbor's dogs next door on this Oh cute oh my god get so yesterday right I had finished work and then I was went to the front door and to put diggers leash on and I hear scratching and I'm like what the fuck is there a rat the door open the door. My neighbor's two dogs they're they're knocking these motherfuckers and knocking on the door they let me in. I'm like, What? What were your parents so open? Not no one no one in sight so I go in there all excited one of them goes runs to the food bowl he eats like he's never been fed before like I'm huge getting your mouth open around everything's I am pick pick that pick the food up so we picked the food bowl up because Dougie Dougie is a an intuitive eater, Dougie will just grace you know, at random times. Yeah, and so then I went to and I knocked on my knee, went to my neighbor's door and it was it was open. And I knocked and he was like, What the hell, they're at your house. And he had opened the door to let the grocery delivery and and the door hadn't shut and so these motherfuckers are just just decided to take them off self off and come knock on my door because I look after them right from like, whenever they're, whenever their parents are off somewhere, I'll look after them and they get a lot of belly rubs and treats and you know, kisses and all that type of stuff around mine. So they like coming round. They just went out my jaw and knocked knocked on my door and opened open the door but like they weren't out there for long I think because I couldn't I couldn't hear them before because I was not at the door because they were scratching quietly and they apparently the door was only open for a few minutes. And so they were safe and everything. And the door was open so they could have gone back home but they decided they wanted to go on a little jolly to my house. So So anyway, I wanted to pick them up now because they've been they've been walking because the parents are out now. So the good thing about working from home is like we live in a dog friendly building and so I can you know, keep an eye on everyone's dogs and make sure that they're okay. And but we ret we think that Jackson and Bella are the names they have worked out that if they bought a lot, I will come and rescue them. And so we think on the days that they are alone because they're not constantly alone, that they're just like, Okay, we're done Bob blows and get get get them around so we can go and get some treats and some belly rubs because we're bored. Like I don't think they're upset or anything. I think they're just they're just very clever. Anyway, all right. Well, thanks for hanging out with me today. Stay face fatty and see you in a while alligator dog.

Episode 157 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Unknown Speaker 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 157, Intergenerational food trauma. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Hello, welcome to this episode gas Whoa, we have a guest, a VIP guest. My mum, oh my god. Mommy Welsby is on the show. And yeah. It's kind of strange. No, like, I guess we can call a friend of the show now. We're talking about intergenerational food trauma. And this is something I've been thinking about for a while and thinking about how the Irish Potato Famine could have affected her relatives, and then in turn her and then in turn me if at all, and how, in all of our histories, we've probably got some level of trauma, depending where we're from. And also in a lot of our histories, we have probably varying degrees of privilege. And thinking about that with with my mum, she's got both of her parents are Irish, whereas with me, my dad was English and thinking about how people have that internalized trauma from what's happened with their ancestors.

Unknown Speaker 2:03

And then also thinking about well, what if your ancestors were the oppressors? What if your ancestors were the ones causing the trauma, then do you have internalized privileged privilege and internalized white supremacy internalized colonization? And I know for me, the answer is yes. Wonder resent, I absolutely have internalized white supremacy. And, and also, we're thinking about how the Irish people were greatly traumatized by, I'm going to call it the great starvation or the Great Hunt, hunger, the great starvation, the great hunger, how they were traumatized by that, and they were really, really treated badly by the British. And the British are actually the cause of the starvation. And that's the reason for shifting language away from the potato famine, which is, you know, everyone knows that to the great starvation or the great hunger is because, yes, there was a there was a blight on potatoes. But actually, Ireland at the time was known as the garden of England, the garden of England, Ireland produced a lot of crops, and actually, because England had colonized Ireland, the British just took those crops back to England, and the Irish starved and so those this massive trauma, but then also the Irish went to America, Canada, Australia, and I've often heard that well, Irish were Irish people were enslaved. And this is not not actually true. And comparing some, you know, the Irish experience to other ethnicities and and groups and I think there's there's a lot of differences going on. The Irish were often indentured servants and so indentured servants meant that they had a certain amount of time that they had to be a servant. And then after that, they were free to do whatever right and they probably didn't have a good good go of it as well. And you know, the, the a lot of communities they said, you know, no, no Irish No, no dogs that type of thing. On on places that Irish will not often welcome, but to assimilate and to get closer to whiteness. Irish a lot of Irish would identify with their oppressors and become as white as possible. Irish were not considered white.

Unknown Speaker 5:01

In a lot of people's eyes, this is around the 1800s. And so they then would be incredibly racist. And they will take on those identities and ideals of the white oppressors of British, the colonizers that were in what is now known as America. And, and so and so and so and so. And so what I'm saying here is that it's really complicated, right? Stuff is complicated. And you know, how much trauma could have been passed down to me from the great starvation, and how much violence and white supremacy and colonization and those ideas being a part of my DNA also, and I'm sure that's for a lot of people too. And other people, you know, they they have they know their heritage or is, you know, where their families are from. And even that is a privilege in itself. For people who come from enslaved Africans, we might, you know, there might not be any information available to know who your ancestors were. So just talking about this is a privilege in regards to I'm able to ask my mom and my mom is able to remember and tell me stories. So anyway, long rambling thing of their of, of this stuff is complicated. The Irish were not angels, you know, alongside any white people.

Unknown Speaker 6:39

And also the Irish experienced a ton of trauma. And also, the British were colonizing them and caused a lot of these harms. And also, I'm half British. Soit's kind of interesting to think about. So let's go and start in and we're welcome mummy. And, by the way, I was like, oh, shall I just you know, I call Mummy mummy and Alma M er, which is just name we made up M er, doesn't mean anything. I guess it means C and I in French, but I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna call mummy Mummy. I'm not going to try and impress people by being like, yes, hello mom, or mother or whatever. In Ireland. A lot of people. A lot of adults everywhere. You know, most people call them mums mummy. In case I don't want you to think I'm like some. No, I don't know what you're there. You probably call it maybe you call your mum mummy, or not.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

Yeah, so anyway, let's welcome mummy. Welcome, mummy wells be Sarah McLaughlin to the first fatty podcast. Hi, Mommy.

Unknown Speaker 7:48

Vinnie.

Unknown Speaker 7:52

I'm excited to have you on the show. After I have had Guess how many episodes of my podcast I've had?

Unknown Speaker 8:00

Oh, maybe hundreds. 155.

Unknown Speaker 8:06

Very good. So this is the first time that I've joined. I know. So this will be I think 156. So I'm excited because I I've been thinking about this intergenerational trauma. And we were talking about it because we talk every week on Sunday. And we were talking about it. And I was thinking because obviously you're Irish and I'm half Irish. Daddy was English.

Unknown Speaker 8:32

That how the Potato Famine could have influenced our ancestors, if at all, and therefore influenced us. So just starting off, in case people don't know what the potato famine is, what is the potato famine. Famine happened in 1845 Jade for 1849. And it was because it became a blight on the potatoes. At the Irish day. It was mainly potatoes at that stage. So a million millionaires people died of starvation and another million emigrated to the places like America, Canada, Australia, mostly America. And the ones that have went off on ships was called the record coffin ships because a lot of these people that went off, died on the journey because it would be a long journey. And they were they were suffering from starvation before they went. And so how many people died? And that just over a million people died, and that was a quarter of the population. Right? That was a good, good, good part of I think a third of the population though the data immigrated. And the population has never recovered to this day.The population of 6 million at the time of the famine and took the day today just under 5 million according to figures today it will never recover because most people a lot of areas still still going up for two different countries for work and the potatoes that the potato crops that was successful they went to the British right?

Unknown Speaker 10:24

Well, any any surplus food, the way the famine lasted, and why it ended the budget, the food that was the island has enough food to to feed their own, their own their own people, but the aerosols are transported to the UK. And the only reason that they stop 1940 1849 They stop the transportation of food and that's what stopped the famine. And the British didn't have a potato blight where the Irish did now still taking the Irish food. The British probably has other food after that America supply this was Indian made when things like that. So Ireland was meant meant for it. So of course the potatoes because they had small ponds and potatoes grew quickly and well. And that's how this about and they're delicious. And they're beautiful. And today I wouldn't have a dinner starved or hungry I didn't have a potato and I forgot to mention that we had an issue with with the audio and whatnot. So hopefully that audio is okay for you and you can understand mommy's accent. And you get all of the all of her her Irish goodness. Let's talk about multi generational trauma and its consequences. There is a paper that I'm going to link into the show notes, which is called Exploring Irish multi generational trauma and its healing lessons from the Oglala Lakota Sioux so there's this paper talking about obviously what happens to to Irish folks and and then looking at comparisons about how First Nations communities in North America

Unknown Speaker 12:32

I'm thinking if it's if it's Canada or the US how they have overcome trauma and basically it's it's going back to their heritage and their traditions and things like that. So let's talk about multi generational trauma and its consequences. So the emerging so this is quote quoting from that that paper the emerging definition of multi generational trauma relates to the idea that subsequent generations learn from an art effected by parents, grandparents, and other extended family adults who are traumatized, that is experience that is experienced unexpected or serious harm or death or injury. Experienced example genocide, essay torture, murder. This phenomenon involves learning to experience an intense fear helplessness or horror through viewing another's experience of trauma. It eg anger, depression and alcohol or drug use, and learning to react or act in similar fashion. The terms historical or cultural trauma have also been used to accent the depth and breadth of certain traumatic experiences shared by many example genocidal war. There is also a growing body of evidence that multi generational trauma and its consequences is prevalent in historically oppressed and or colonized people.

Unknown Speaker 14:07

Evidence of multi generational trauma has emerged in studies of multi generate generational Holocaust survivor families, refugee families and families around the world dealing with multi generational effects of genocide, mass killing, and other collective violence. Levine 2001 reports about a number of Holocaust families studies were several recurring themes including chronic and severe depression, disturbance in memory and cognition, feelings of guilt marked by anxiety, anxiety and sleep disturbances. More recently, WIC Beck, a girl found that American Indian parents indicated high levels of anger and depression directly attributed to multi generational trauma historical loss. Indeed stone noted that conceptualize

Unknown Speaker 15:00

As individual problems with historically oppressed, oppressed and or colonized peoples through the multi generational trauma lens is key for helping with successful healing. Something that I have found very, very interesting is finding out something about my great, great grandmother's. So let's talk about that next. So something that you told me the other day, and I was flabbergasted and so just happy and excited was that I have always thought that our family are pretty straight sides. Like there's not really many fat people in our family. And you told me that both your grandparents the the grandmothers were both supersize fat people were both very fat people. The legendary supersize, but the perfect, but But you mentioned very, very fast, right? Yeah, you could call them awesome, or very fast. Yeah, but I don't know about my grandparents. My grandfather's because they had died before I was born. So I don't even have any photographs of them or anything. Yeah. But then I was like, I was like, oh my god, that is so cool to know that my great great grandmother's were were fat and we're fat fat and to know that they had been around close way closer to the famine, and they have survived and their survival.

Unknown Speaker 16:43

Thinking about that, like how much their fatness protected them, whether they were fat during the famine, or their parents are fat or whatever. But that gene for fatness was probably turned on or genes to help their body survive. What do you think? Yeah, there was another gene that I learned about today. So, the gene mutation of the gene to a to Roy is at the core of that changed, that was 85% Of course, Asian white by people have have had this thing wrong with this chain. And the link between that chain and our family is hematoma process. And hematoma. Croesus was an overload. And because people had helped some probably help some of the areas to survive, because having good blood supply carries food to you know, it was good for your breathing and carry food around your body and all the rest. So that was the opposite saving link is called a curse now because of immutable causes, causes so much damage and unless people know how to get it checked out as the name of the quality language, curses, disease, and as I say, a lot of a lot of Irish center family, I'm a carrier, my brother is, has it and he has to get he has to have a split, he has to get blood taken every so often. Otherwise, he's damaged from charlas organs in the body. Yeah. And something that human when I was on that TV show, they did genetic testing on me and I said I didn't want to know what the results and but they before the dot before the doctor had previously said, You've got genes that predisposes you to fatness and then I was like, I don't want to know any more like I didn't want to know that anyway. But anyway. And so I wonder if those genes came from or, or were were true triggered by the potato famine? Like we'll never know. Probably, but then the thought of that of fatness maybe have been a protective factor. Just makes me feel so good. Yeah, the thing is starvation causes causes your metabolism to change. So your metabolism slows down. If you're stabbed, protect your body. Yeah. So maybe that affects your genes overall, eventually.

Unknown Speaker 19:26

Yeah, it changes you. I don't know. I'm not a scientist, really. So I don't know. Yeah. And your body will slow down. And this affects your thyroid system, which is a lot of things that we're all suffering from. Okay, so we want to play a clip here from the from Maeve peoples, who discusses the phenomenon of intergenerational trauma that exists in Ireland today and it's affects dating back to the great starvation of 1845 and there's this is taken from a full documentary so this is a clip that's that's The three minutes long. And the art of proof peaceful revolution on little YouTube has taken this smaller clip from a larger video. And so if that is of interest to you go to the link in the show notes. And you can find the link for this little video. And then for the longer the longer documentary to, to describe trauma as well as we'd look at it being a particular set of reactions to an event or stressors to an event that happens. And then intergenerational trauma is something that transmits across multiple generations, and the psychological impacts of the Holocaust transmit through to first, second and third generations. So they're proving that what happens in one generation can have a cascading effect down through the generations, there's a new field of research called epigenetics, and it's studying what we're made up of. And we're not completely determined by your genes. Emory University in 2013, did a study in relation to mice. So the mice were trained to receive a shock when they smell cherry blossoms, and then three, four generations of mice later who had never been exposed to the experiment, they were also still in fear of the smell of cherry blossom so that while they had no direct contact with the study that still pass through them, that sense of fear. So if we look at the groups of people that are affected by the famine, the main groups are obviously the people who died by starvation and diseases. Next group is people who were left behind who had witnessed the events. And then there's a group of people who emigrated, they had to leave Ireland, they had no option but to go somewhere else. So the people that were left behind, they suffered what quite commonly known as bystander guilt, to people who emigrated to America, Canada, to England, they had to adjust to leaving behind their life in Ireland, there was what was often called an American weight at the time of the famine, when you left Ireland, you didn't get to come back again. So you didn't get to see your family again. So you were leaving everything that you knew behind, and moving to start life in a new country, where you might not have known anyone, and everything was very different for you. We tend to call what happened a famine. In reality, it wasn't a famine, there was plenty of food in Ireland, the British government kept records of the food that was exported every day shiploads of food, I think in terms of dealing with what happened at the famine, it's really important to reframe it to tell a different narrative around it, because calling it a famine isn't the actual truth of what happened. different titles have been given to it and gotten more of the great hunger, but other people have different opinions.

Unknown Speaker 22:20

So I think in terms of healing and developing and moving on from what happened, it's important to open up a discussion about what we should actually call what happened to the people, rather than calling it generally speaking, very common responses to trauma can be things like substance abuse, increased mental health issues, and increased rates of suicide. So that's very generally speaking, and it's across the board. Yeah. So if we look at the rest of the EU, Ireland has comparatively higher rates for substance abuse, domestic violence and child abuse. We can possibly conclude from this, that it's an effect of intergenerational trauma through the years, a lot of the research has been correlated by women called El Danieli. In relation to the Holocaust. She has conducted many studies and has put a lot of findings together which we now work from in relation to intergenerational transmission of trauma. There's a quote from her from 1998. And when she talks about multi generational transmission of trauma is an integral part of human history, transmitted in words, writing, body language, and even in silence. It is as old as mankind, it has been thought of alluded to written about unexamined in both oral and written histories in all societies, cultures, and religions. A lot of the research that we have based on intergenerational trauma is based on Holocaust research that started in sort of the 70s. But now we have more up to date research, and that's coming from First Nations in America and also from Aboriginals in Australia.

Unknown Speaker 23:48

So, so we had that, like, potentially, we don't really know, but we're speculating, and it's kind of fun to speculate that maybe fatness was a protective force genetically in our family. And then I wonder as well, like, there, there may be the good things, maybe, you know, the too much iron is maybe not a good thing nowadays. But what about the trauma? What about the the obviously going through a famine where a quarter of the population was gone? was obviously harrowing. And then not only that, psychologically thinking about what that does to our bodies and lessons that we've learned about food. So what do you think about that stuff? Well, the trauma of people having to emigrate as never seen them again, it was like a death in the family first there. So if you imagine our family, my grandmother's sister, sisters and brothers that went to America and never came back. That was a terrible trauma first their trauma for them, never to get back and see they're there. siblings again, the parents or whatever?

Unknown Speaker 25:03

And then what about? What about the trauma of not having enough food?

Unknown Speaker 25:09

Well, yeah, because I think people's probably probably, maybe hit food or are very careful or, you know, mature that they had enough to eat and for whatever way they could find food, they had to go to college or work out or modalities to go have to go average. We were young, or to England, in between, you know, working in the farm here, because we have a small farm. And that campus kept money coming in coming in at different times, but not enough to keep us going. So to keep food on the table, you would have to go to England, or Scotland a couple of times a year, leave mom having to care for everybody. And last to keep things rolling in the farm, even though we're very small.

Unknown Speaker 26:05

And I wonder about like, you know, how we would pick dolls. And you would teach us about picking dosa adults is seaweed that grows on the rocks in in Ireland. And it's we think it's delicious. People who have not grown up eating it, don't think it's delicious. In fact, they think it's just disgusting. We love it. But I wonder if that foraging of dolls, which is, I mean, it seems to be a bit of a strange thing to eat, like, but I don't know, maybe not like maybe everyone did it? Or do you think that that was a result of the famine, or we'll see the soldier in the family that they weren't able to do ended up because they're too weak, because Ireland around for where you were, there would have been fishing later dad and that used to go fishing, but the time of the family to quit and go fishing because they're too weak to growth in the seas to fish. And they were too weak to pick notes.

Unknown Speaker 27:02

Well, the dusts would say, only a certain time and you get couldn't work and get gas and you know, different times, the summer time for a multitude, you'd be able to get the dots and get links and different different other things that you can get in close to them, but at the time of the famine, because that was one of the things that came up on the internet. Why didn't the Irish fish because there was loads of fish in the sea? said there were there were two weeks of fish. Yeah, yeah. And, and you think you're, you're a pathetic, apathetic and you know, you have no energy and no willpower to do anything and just reserving all your strength. So common responses to trauma could be substance use increased mental health issues and increased rates of suicide. Compared to the rest of the EU, Ireland has high rates of domestic abuse, child abuse, and high rates of violence, we can possibly conclude that this is an effect of intergenerational trauma. That is a quote from the video that we played earlier. It's really interesting to think about, even though Ireland is is a very rich company country now. It's a very rich country, and does well in regards to health care and life expectancy and things like that. But still, we have high rates compared to the rest of Europe, for mental health, substance use, suicide, domestic abuse, child abuse and violence. There is a book that talks about this stuff and it's called it didn't start with you by Mark woollen Wolin.

Unknown Speaker 29:01

And I am going to read a little section here for you. So this is a summary written by Alyssa Burnett. Again, link in the show notes. And this section here is called trauma and genetics. If you have a fraught relationship with your parents or grandparents inherited trauma might be one possible explanation. That's because the impact of trauma isn't limited to our emotional connection with our families. It can affect our biology as well. To look at an example of how this functions in practical application, let's consider a study conducted by psychiatrist Rachel Yehuda, the head of the division of traumatic stress studies at New York Mount Sinai Medical Center, Dr. Yoo hoo that examined a sample group of 38 women who were pregnant during the attack on 911 with a particular focus on those who are working in the Trade Center

Unknown Speaker 30:00

At the time, she was especially interested in the case of those who developed PTSD as a result of the attack, and her study followed these women through their pregnancies until they gave birth. To develop her results. Yehudah took saliva samples from the women who struggled with PTSD, and then took samples from their babies as well. They then analyzed the levels of the cortisol hormone president in present in these samples, and found that both the mother and babies displayed levels of cortisol that were significantly lower than average. If you're not familiar with what cortisol does and why it's significant. The simple answer is that cortisol is a stress hormone is job is to regulate our emotional responses to stressful events. In the early stages of a traumatic event, your cortisol levels might skyrocket as your body attempts to process and come to grips with this new stimuli. But after prolonged exposure to trauma, these levels actually plummet for survivors who develop PTSD.

Unknown Speaker 31:03

This is the curious response because psychiatrists and neuroscientists who track cortisol levels in trauma survivors typically only see these drops when the trauma has been resolved, and the patient has been successfully treated. But after us further study, Dr. Houda, and her team learned that these permanent levels of low cortisol develop when someone doesn't have enough cortisol at the time of the traumatic impact, to regulate their fight or flight response. In short, that means that what should happen is that we experienced traumatic stimuli. Our fight or flight response kicks in alongside with our cortisol, and then we calm down as our body seeks to normalize what just happened and help us return to a stable state. But if you don't have enough cortisol to begin with that initial surge of the hormone may overwhelm us and cause us to drop dangerously low. This in turn can create or intensify triggers a form of psychological stimuli that react reactivates a survivor's trauma. Although these triggers don't have to be inherently threatening, they are intrinsically connected to a traumatic memory and being triggered can cause survivors to relive their trauma all over again or be overwhelmed by intrusive thoughts. And after examining the impact of cortisol levels, traumatic memories and triggers, psychiatrists, like your houden biologists like Brian Lipton was of Stanford University can affirm that trauma, quote, biologically alters the genetic expression of offspring.

Unknown Speaker 32:43

When read in conjunction with you heard a story on the childhood, that of the children of mothers with PTSD, we can conclude without a doubt that trauma is inherited by virtue of what Yehuda calls, quote, intergenerational transmission. So in short, if your mother experienced a significant trauma while pregnant, you may have literally inherited genetic trauma. And as a result, you might be predisposed to fear, nervousness or anxiety. You might struggle with nameless with a nameless and seemingly sauceless sense of dread that confuses you. And likewise, if your grandparents or even great grandparents suffered trauma of their own, such as surviving the Holocaust, their own unresolved trauma can be passed through generations by both emotional and genetic transmission some something that I that this makes me think about is because I my dad used alcoholand he my dad was who I think had a lot of unmedicated and an on understood conditions he had great levels of anxiety he found it very hard to function in a day to day in day to day life. very stressed. Very kind of couldn't handle noise.

Unknown Speaker 34:23

As I get older, I feel like I understand hit and like too much noise and lights and stuff. It's very difficult for me as well. So we don't don't We don't know what was happening with my dad, but he was he didn't have the resources he needed to, to live and to thrive he was hanging on precariously. And so my mum had my brother and sister and then that was meant to be it and then she got pregnant with me. And my dad was like, I can't handle another child. So You need to have an abortion and my mom being Catholic was like no.

Unknown Speaker 35:07

And so my dad said, If you don't have an abortion, then I will kill myself. And so my mom said no. And so my dad took an overdose. The same time my mum fell down the stairs, broke her coccyx, which is your tailbone. And my mum, not at the same time that my dad had had had attempted suicide, she was a different day, you know, in a pregnancy, I mean, and, so she didn't have money from him coming in because he had stopped working due to his substance use. He had then attempted suicide he wasn't he wasn't successful, but I think it was kind of him trying to say I'm so overwhelmed. I can't handle this. Obviously, it was really problematic that he did that to my mum. And, and then my mum having having to look after the house having to look after you get two young kids not having enough money and breaking her tailbone.

Unknown Speaker 36:12

What levels of stress was my mum under? And how did that affect me, I mean, as a child, I remember write in my diary that I will 100% suffer with depression when I'm older, because I think I was depressed as a kid. But I didn't understand how to how to talk about it. But I definitely was a very anxious child various getting I tell people this, I used to be so shy and stuff. And people are like, Why? Because I'm so different now. But I was absolutely the opposite. And I wonder how much of that was learned from my mum, because she was, you know, very, very shy and struggle talking to people and you know, incredible, incredible, massive amounts of stress and anxiety and all that type of stuff. And how much it was that that learnt from my mum, and then how much was inherited anxiety and trauma and depression and all that type of stuff? Who knows? Or maybe it was just totally out of left field. And it had nothing to do with my mom. And it had nothing to do with my dad. Because obviously then my dad had all those other influences, but then we're thinking about how mother and baby how that that link there is, it's really interesting and, and also like, you know, if you are pregnant, or have had children, and you were stressed at the time and thinking, Oh, God, I fucked up my kid, like, you know, everyone fucks up their kids, no one is going to be perfect. And also, these things, you know, the predisposition to these things and is interesting to think about that it doesn't necessarily mean that the child's life is going to be terrible. It might mean that there's more barriers, like you think like me, with me, I've had I have had a number of barriers through my life. But also I've had a number of of areas of privilege, for example, being white.

Unknown Speaker 38:11

Being in Canada, being able to access therapy, things like that, right. And so, it my mum going through that and me going through stuff in my kit in my childhood didn't mean that i Oh, my life was automatically, you know, terrible fucked up whatever. It happened to be that whatever, luck, you know, some other genetics that made me resilient and unearned privileges like my skin color meant that I am able to thrive now. Okay, so let's talk about poverty and food insecurity. Poverty, moral failure is married because circumstances because for me lived in Peterborough, we live from week to week or day to day. So for the listeners, Peterborough is the place that I grew up and where we lived for where we brought me brought the family property there.

Unknown Speaker 39:21

My dad, my dad has a firm and they work really hard and he grew. It grew a variety of crops and we had some we had code and we had milk and butter and mum made the bread and you know we had a variety of things so I never felt when I was growing up even though dad had to go away to pay to do extra work and we probably don't need we had to work a wee bit harder. We as children, we had to go to market in the fields. But we weren't I don't ever remember being hungry. We may not have a variety of food. We all had we had put soda even though we didn't ever

Unknown Speaker 40:00

Right, if but growing up and living in poverty and Peterborough, you know, from day to day, I used to have to sit there at the beginning of the month and mark out how much money I would have leftover for food after paying the bills. And if there's very little, yeah, yeah. And then I think any, any problem or raising the food probably came from that. But I experienced at home growing up so Feeding America talks about the child hunger and development. So this is what they say about it for children. Food Insecurity is particularly devastating, not having enough healthy food can be can have serious implications for a child physical and mental health, academic achievement and future. Economic prosperity knows how they put healthy food in there. I mean, it can be any food, food and not having enough food. But I guess you know, someone is, is malnourished, can be malnourished and also have food. Anyway, research shows an association between food insecurity and delayed development in young children risk of chronic illnesses like asthma and anemia. Hello, that's me. And behavioral problems like hyperactivity, anxiety and aggression in school aged children.

Unknown Speaker 41:23

When I was looking at this, like the the outcomes of food insecurity on children, the number one thing that came up with a lot of people was a lot of resources said that fatness they use the O word was an outcome and a negative outcome they were they were positioning it as a negative outcome. And, and I wonder if that is a negative outcome? Previously, I would have said, Yeah, because I hated being fat, obviously. But was, was my fatness. A result of food insecurity. And also my mum saying, you know, don't get fat, don't eat too much whatever. Would I have been a straight size person if we had enough food, but then again, even if we did have enough food, then you know, my mum would still ever had that message. Don't be too fat, don't eat too much.

Unknown Speaker 42:30

Or maybe that was that would be enough, you know, that would be enough for her to have me to have been straight sized. Who knows, you know, the rest of my siblings are, are straight sized. So, I mean, it's easy to all these thought experiments. And when I'm thinking about food insecurity, I am thinking about manufactured food insecurity for other people. So not everyone is going to have the same experience as I did. And some people are gonna have, you know, obviously a lot worse experience than I did. But I think about in diet culture in fat phobia, how many people have grown up without access to food, even if their cupboards were stocked full? I'm thinking about the parents who put their kids on diets or parents who locked up food who wouldn't let their kids have food? And that was that similar or even worse than what I went through, because if the cupboards were stocked full, and my mum said, you can't have the food, what type of mindfuck would that be?

Unknown Speaker 43:43

You know, she'd you know, there was that sprinkling of you can't have the food. But when the food came in the house, we would be eating it right. Imagine if the food came into the house and it was like no, you can't have it. That would be a mindfuck and I bet you a lot of people listening have had experiences like that where their parents have told them what they can and can't eat in a in a diety fatphobia type of way. So I wonder how that has affected people. Because that must be a really bright, a big breakdown of trust, especially if you are hungry. Okay, so going back to that paper, multi generational trauma mechanisms. Okay, so quote, especially related to Seminole cataclysmic traumatic events, example genocide, each successive generation may experience and act out their own trauma example poverty, alcohol use domestic violence, rural isolation, and this is from stone 2003. Thus, each successive generation of new parents can inadvertently re traumatize their children. Ongoing oppression and poverty, increased vulnerability to trauma yet much degeneration of drug and alcohol use and other chronic mental health problems may persist regardless of socio economic level stone and Levine discussed the long term effects of trauma as systemic and multigenerational with continued themes of exaggerated and conflicted feelings of anxiety, panic, and depression in subsequent generations. Both authors authors noted that root trauma and retraumatization reaches across several general several generations. In a recent study with back a owl found that such trauma can be found at several generations after seminal traumatic events, example traumatized American Indians, Indians referencing the devastating effects of the 1819 Wounded Knee Massacre on their families 110 years later.

Unknown Speaker 45:52

Yeah, and with with a colonization of of Ireland, that trauma is raw. It is raw, if you've been to Ireland into the into the north at the north of Ireland and also Northern Ireland, which is a part of the UK because that area is still colonized. The if you know anything about the the troubles, which is the the Catholics and Protestants, which is what we're, we'd seen as, you know, Catholics against the Protestants, but it's fueled by Protestants, not all this is, you know, the general sweeping idea the Protestants aligning with colonizers, the British and wanting them to stay and the Catholics saying, No, this is our Ireland, they need to leave, they still haven't left. I was brought up Catholic, as one of Catholic and so you can see where my bias stands.

Unknown Speaker 47:03

But many Irish say we want you hear the British made Ireland better. My opinion is they didn't, there might have been some, you know, some some benefits, but I mean, you know, it's fucked up and tire gin multiple generations of people, even to the point where my talking to Irish friends, and they wouldn't date outside their religion. So, you know, you wouldn't marry a Protestant girl, if you're brought up Catholic. They will have schools which are Catholic schools and Protestant schools. They'll have towns that are Protestant and Catholic towns, you can go through and you'll see towns that were the sidewalks the pavements, the curbs are painted in red, white and blue, which is for for British, and others where it's green, white and gold for Ireland. And so whole areas and and this is not all of Ireland, in the north is where it's the most, most dramatic, you'll see houses painted with, you know, slogans for the IRA, the Irish Republican Army, which is a terrorist organization, which was on the Catholic side of things.

Unknown Speaker 48:31

So this is, this is raw, and, you know, we're in peacetime, but still, it's there. And this is stemming back from the British colonizing Ireland. So let's talk about body image. So before we start this, this clip, before, just before, I'm not playing it, my mum was telling me the story about how I said, you know, did your parents ever tell you to lose weight or anything? Or say that fatness was bad and one of her memories, one of her core memories was her dad telling his niece, my mom's cousin, that she should go on a diet. So she was visiting. And apparently my granddad thought that her body was too big. And she should go on a diet. And she did. So that's what we were just talking about. Was that the first exposure you think that you had to that anti fat rhetoric? I don't think so. Because as it is today, I was thinking about law school. And most a year they used to sports, and I was coming for whatever race I was in. They came in last. And I remember at first because I was fast that I wasn't able to run as fast as I wouldn't have been very old at that stage. But I don't think anybody made a big thing about it, but I felt bad about it. Yeah, yeah. And that's interesting. You said like, oh, it's because I'm, I was fat that I came last versus Maybe I wasn't the most talented runner.

Unknown Speaker 50:04

Well, no. Say we weren't we didn't practice was something that just done once a year, and there was no practice or anything. Yeah, but feeling bad about it, because you know, everybody wants to win or no, that's terrible. Yeah, that would be a terrible experience as a young person. And then this is the thing that I found really interesting that I'm saying before is that there was a big shift from when, before you had television. And after you had access to television, you didn't have television at home. But some of the more results neighbors, relatives of neighbor, I had television show, we used to go and watch Top of the Pops and see all the skinny people in all this. So I think that influence is a great too. Yeah, we didn't have magazines were living out in the country. And there is no such thing as magazines. We don't need paper. We've got a farmers journal. And there was no calories and sheep.

Unknown Speaker 51:09

Exactly. And so after being exposed to the Top of the Pops and all of the thin, thin people of that, would that be the 60s in the 70s? That was the early 60s Because I when I was even working with England in the late 60s. Okay. And then. So then it's mid 70s. And so then what was your response? You met you, you decided that you were going to try and become thin? Yeah, I remember. Probably even started maybe taking notice of the opposite sex and wanting to be looking good. A member a member having maybe a big feed of potatoes and then going out and making myself sick out of the harem. Yeah, I did it a few times. I don't remember doing it for very long, maybe two or three times.

Unknown Speaker 52:03

And that stopped because it's not a nice thing to do. So once at once, I want to I think I probably did it a few times in England when I was in Peterborough because I used to go to Slimming classes to put swimming classes. And if we hadn't been there yourself, and if you haven't lost any weight, you'd be thinking oh gosh, better research sexual. Less weight on the scale. So wow, really? I've done that a few times. And where you build where you binge eating as well?

Unknown Speaker 52:36

Probably I don't know probably I don't know maybe I probably would have done but I never thought it would been dude. Yeah, yeah. And and what did you learn when so you went to England to learn when you went and you studied nursing? What did you learn from another nurse? The technique?

Unknown Speaker 52:54

Oh, yeah. Because you know, this was all about body image really and while I'm sick you know you can lose weight if you if you purge yourself so I wouldn't remember going into the chemists and getting this bad this chapter type stuff that that would probably help to purge you. And I've said to the chemists person asked for my grandmother. The grandmother wasn't even sure they knew very well and rotten because most older people would get a quarter shopping similar from their cheat page if the FDA needed it if they're constipated, and so it was like a laxative. Okay, so going back to the paper section here on Irish multi generational trauma. Quote, research to date clearly underscores that survivors of massive trauma and their families are not a homogenous group of vulnerable dysfunctional individuals. Instead, they display a wide range of coping strategies. It is with this provoked proviso that Irish historian James Lee asserted that many current mental health problems in Irish society may be best understood in the similar industry in the context of what he calls historical wounding. Similarly, the Irish researcher Milan noted that in Irish society, there are psychological patterns inherited from colonization, which may be transmitted through family dynamics, even while rapid social trend change is occurring.

Unknown Speaker 54:29

Lee and Mon proposed that centuries of English oppression and colonized Connell colonialism relied on mechanisms of tight control which included fiscal coercion, sexual exploitation, economic expert to exploit exploitation, political exclusion and control of ideology and culture. They postulated that for many individuals and families in post colonial Irish society today the

Unknown Speaker 55:00

These mechanisms have left a deep psychological legacy of trauma and its consequences of dependency fear, ambivalence towards the colonizer, suppression of anger and rage, a sense of inferiority self hatred, loss of identity, horizontal violence and vulnerability to psychological distress distress specific, traumatizing experience for the Irish include systematically treated as an quote, inferior race by the oppressing culture British subjection to starvation. The famine even while vast quantities of food were being exported, indiscriminate killings, land grabs religious persecution, language and music censorship and educational oppression. Indeed, many Irish today continue to reference their disdain of past British actions. They especially referenced the wholesale suffering inflicted by the black and tans and that the black and tans was a name for the special auxiliaries that the British recruited to suppress suppress Irish independence in the 20th century. So the bracken towns because the uniform was black and tan, so the rock and dance auxilary is that British, the British recruited to suppress Irish independence in the early 20th century, and the systematic suppression and violence of indigenous Irish rights in the northern six counties throughout the 20th century. Although multi generational trauma has not been specifically studied with the Irish several Irish studies have indicated associated alcohol related research supports at least tangentially multi generational trauma as substance use is strongly correlated with trauma.

Unknown Speaker 56:47

While countries such as the US have recently declined by more than 1% in alcohol consumption over the last 10 years, Ireland has increased by more than 39%. In fact, the Republic of Ireland has written risen to fifth place in the World Health Organization's global rankings for alcohol consumption. Other reasons, studies have consistently indicated higher alcohol use by Irish than other ethnic groups. Indeed, the Irish are the only ethnic group in the United States that has not adapted to the US drinking norms after several generations instead keeping to higher Irish drinking norms. So here it's saying that even the people who left Ireland and went to

Unknown Speaker 57:40

Turtle Island America, they are using alcohol even though they are living in America following what their ancestors and their current family or you know, Kin in Ireland are doing. And that common thread is back to the great hunger British colonization. Binge drinking is also dramatically on the rise in Ireland, especially among young women. In terms of multi generational transmission. The Irish researchers Morgan and group indicated that in Ireland, but parental modeling is quite strong in predicting abusive drinking behavior. And as an illustrative example quoted an old Irish proverb. The person who drinks is often lucky, while the non drinker is often unfortunate.

Unknown Speaker 58:34

Perhaps further indicating the presence of multigenerational trauma Ireland was higher comparative rates of depression, Ireland has higher comparative rates of depression, domestic violence, violence, post traumatic stress, and child abuse as compared to other countries in the EU. So let's bring it forward to our generation. What's going on with us and closer to today's timeline and and so then coming to like to me in my generation then, so you as a parent were coming from someone who had at times binge ate maybe purged a number of times thought that your body was too big and that your body was was unattractive? And so that was where you're at when when I was young and when I was growing up, right? That's how you felt about yourself.

Unknown Speaker 59:27

Yeah, I didn't see that. I never felt good about my body after two recent years. You taught me different to love my body. So you know ya know. The thing is, I'm worried about my body this how well I think I don't care what but if anybody doesn't like how I look, that's their problem. Not my problem. Yeah, I wish that you could have had that younger in your life as well. Money.

Unknown Speaker 59:54

Yeah, we should do too because many wasted hours. Worried about how you look? You wouldn't put something on you put on about 10 different things, and you still weren't happy about what you will. Yeah. So how do you think that that affected your children? Probably? Not that. I was probably saying things probably too much or you know, maybe maybe sent to you maybe a philosophy bit of weight. You know, I can't remember saying these things, but I probably did. Maybe if you lost weight, maybe thing for future better or something? I don't know.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:35

So just for the viewers, mummy has had a brain injury, she had a, an accident, a car accident. And so she struggles with with memory. And so there's a lot of things that that mummy can't remember. And there's lots of things that you can remember, which is great. So if there's anything that you're like, I can't remember. That's what's going on. And so, when did you notice? Or did you notice that I was struggling with my my body or my or food?

Unknown Speaker 1:01:09

No, I never I never realized is you did do you know, I do know that you went to Slimming club and you seem to be happy about losing weight, but I didn't know the ins and outs of it at the time. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:22

And I've probably said it, you know, especially hear from people who haven't seen you for a while or they say You look wonderful. You've lost weight. So maybe the first thing I'll say to you is weight and this is the topic of losing weight and quite yet and you know, backdate it on and things like that. Yeah, that is it. That's the first thing people say is, You look well, and I'm always I always kind of like off? I don't like that you look? Well, that is because to me, I hear you. I'm judging your weight. You know, and I remember when I came back to Ireland, after losing, I'd know what it was a lot of weight on Weight Watchers and coming back and feeling like feeling like the triumphant, you know, protocol, protocol. child had returned. Look at this person now is it success because they're thin. And I felt so proud. And then I felt so ashamed the next time coming back, because I put all the weight back on, obviously, because that's what happens.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:24

But it's interesting how you never you never noticed that I didn't like my body. Up until that point, and I was an adult that I think probably probably we're very good at hiding what's going on within? You know, yeah, probably not. Nobody ever knew that. I think I might have mentioned to one of my siblings, about me being sick at one time, because they were going through a similar sort of thing. And nurses say we've seen it, but not to be doing that. Not the opposite rest of them have never have never ever spoke about it. Yeah. And and it's interesting, because outside of your kind of disordered eating behaviors, those eating disorders in the family, and there's eating disorders amongst your children, and I think about like the genetic factor of being predisposed. And I found, you know, when when you were talking about how you were your eating disorder behaviors, I was I'd never known that you've done those things. And I was like, Wow, that's so interesting that, you know, I had my eating disorder, experiences and behaviors. And even though I never knew about you, it was like, it was like, Oh, my, almost written in my, in my, my blood almost to that I'd be predisposed to that. And then I would act out binge eating, and then eventually, a typical anorexia and and it's something that I think about a lot is the fact that you mentioned that we lived in poverty and the fact that you know, you were budgeting to see if you could buy food at the end of the month and all that type of stuff that, that that juxtaposition between not having enough food due to poverty. And what you mentioned before saying maybe don't eat too much. And so that really like push and pull of desperately wanting food because we didn't have it and also desperately wanting food because we were told to maybe not eat so much.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:40

Because there was only X amount of to keep you going every day. Go to work. Say I work six days, six days a week. I didn't work full time in the job, but I work 30 years. And then I had three other cleaning jobs and the cleaning jobs kept some food Yeah, Let's just say, and if there was anything, anything needed to buy, of course, most of our most of your clothes or have returned from your cousin's. And then I would have to wait to the very end. You said a new school year and had to buy a new uniform. I had to wait for the children's allowance to come in. And it was there was hardly anything left in the shops today. And they used to have to go to the legs that pose threat just about your uniforms, and pretend to go somewhere else. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was, it was it was tough. It was tough.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:36

I don't know. That's, that's like a big source of trauma. And now you you're not you don't live in poverty. Now. You're middle class.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:48

I don't live in any property. I've got plenty. And I've got a conversion, you know, 2018. And they've got money in the bank, but are still very careful. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't waste a crumb. No, and we joke about it. But Mommy likes to make soup from leftover vegetables and stuff. And one day, I caught her going through the pile of stuff that was going out into like, into the fire or out outside, you know, the organic stuff. And I'd put out some wilted salad. And you were picking through it and putting the salad into the soup. And I was like, oh god, that's disgusting. And you're like, why is fine. I don't see the potatoes and I don't take the skins off. Don't protect the skins off the carriage because that's where all the goodness is. And you probably don't want to waste it Do you know, I don't want to waste it and I hate you know, I have to hold myself back. My grandchildren come and then have to leave stuff and they don't want anymore. I have to try and run and bear it and put it in the bin because I don't want to cause them to have any eating issues. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:06

Do you think that you know what you did before? Like when when we were younger caused us to have eating issues? I don't know. As to saying it's always finished your plate. But I think probably the most thing is there wasn't a lot leftover because there wasn't a lot of food there was only enough food for every day.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:32

Yeah. And they probably needed that and maybe more maybe that was the issue that there wasn't I'm always delighted with our friend Jane major seven for Tier cake or whatever. There's a few times she she did dinner enough so that that was a big relief to give that because I pray there was no soup there was no like no with soup kitchens and places people golf. Food places for the bank got food for you know, say there wasn't any of that.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:13

We got we got think stuff make sure you're very proud. You don't like you've got a lot simpler charts to match with. Sometimes you'd have the shorter than big companies would give them some leftover clothes, but we still had to pay for them. We didn't get them for free. And then as I said, we didn't always get the first choice people running, of course, the first choice, but we got it. That's the only time you ever bought anything that was cheaper than you get in a shop but you still have to pay for. Yeah, remember, there's just there's a button. We've got a few packets of butter at one time, but I don't remember anything else.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:55

Yeah, I'm thinking about it like now I'm like, wow, you for a family of four there was four of us and then you and then if daddy was there beforehand before you got divorce six people and Daddy wasn't working because he had substance use disorder. And he was using his money on on on alcohol and and so as your wage as a kind of part time cleaner working six days a week to feed six people, five people. It is a tremendous amount of food that you would have to find and being in poverty to like,

Unknown Speaker 1:09:33

Yeah, remember the place of work the shop of work because somebody used to. There's a company that used to come in with the sandwiches and after a couple of days, they would have to be thrown out. The lady used to rescue them and take them home so they're going to as backups for lunch. They'll be out of date. We just Yeah, I don't remember that.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:58

I remember always being here. Happy with our packets apart from when you gave us wagon wheels because wagon wheels were disgusting. Their property cheap, you know? Yeah, or penguin bars or whatever. But yeah, they're probably cute. This one skipped. I remember. It's just me, I used to be guilty about them. But there have been done that I used to be guilty of protecting because the boss knew I was taken low be probably in trouble. But as I say, I used to I used to other colleagues at work, they used to say we'll take them. And they used to, especially for George Packer. He's unbelievable, really that you would get in trouble for taking sandwiches that were thrown out for your hungry children.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:47

I mean, somebody maybe because maybe they're sort of you took that maybe you're still other things. Maybe they could have paid you a fair wage that you wouldn't have to go through that. Probably maybe the opposite of it's probably paid for preschool and half the time. But I remember going into the supermarket and seeing all these people were putting trolleys maybe having to look and look at things and put them back there. And because your goodness, I used to think oh, god you should feel so bad. Yeah. Well, um, like for me, I feel like the the two messages of we don't have enough money to buy food. So there's not enough food. And also, don't eat too much food because we you don't want to be fat and eat less food so that you can get thin all of those messages were really confusing for me. And I think maybe if we had more money, and also maybe if, for by some miracle, you were told that your body was amazing or something, then there might have been different outcomes for us. So let's take take a look at the last quote here from the paper the family famine, legacy.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:12

Quote, there is a paucity of sociological and psychological studies supporting or refuting the psychic efforts of the Irish famine or other traumatic events in Irish history. However, several influential and astute observers of Irish culture believes such a legacy exists, especially related to the famine. CoolMax, a great OG grader Ireland's premier economic historian asserted that quote, the Irish famine was much more murderous relatively speaking than most historical and most modern famines, that is lasted long beyond when the most, most general accounts are used to end it, and that its ravages reached all countries, classes and creeds its enduring implant pact is reflected in a continued to desert desire in Ireland to remember those things we ourselves never knew. The famous Irish American writer Frank McCourt from Limerick in referencing, famine, trauma indicated that quote, in the racial, unconscious of the Irish, there must be some demon tormenting us over food, and, quote, We are expected to suffer retroactively. We were told then, and we know it now the famine was the worst thing to ever happen to the Irish race. Oh, the psychological effects of hunger, how it breaks you how it hinders any kind of emotional development. Tom Thomas Conneely the Irish Australian writer follows a similar theme in his book, The great shame, asserting that the Irish famine has quote, produced in the Irish themselves a certain amount of that survival shame, which one encounters also in certain survivors of the Holocaust, the irrational but sharp shame of still standing when so many felt the shame of having been rendered less than human by cataclysm. Whelan supported these observations and noted that the key to such multi generational trauma is to be is to be to move away from an individual's memory that internalizes past traumas, as depression's to a more culturally neighboring form, which embraces cultural practices and pride. Such a transformation can be aided by development of cultural identity and participation in cultural practices. One traumatize indigenous group that is answering some of these questions is the Oglala Lakota Sioux people.

Unknown Speaker 1:14:53

And so then that go then it goes into what the SU are doing and how they are healing there. trauma for from the colonization of Turtle Island and the murder and, you know, everything that that happened to them. And one thing I want to point out is that Ireland was criminalized by the British, and then we had the great starvation, which happened for a handful of years and, and then things started to get better. It wasn't great. And it was only until recent memory that things have really boomed in, in Ireland and people are are recovering in a way where there is food security. But and that came from a starvation that happened a number of years. What are the consequences? And other people who are much smarter than me can can answer this question to have answered this question. And to people who were enslaved enslaved Africans, that it wasn't just a few years for them, it was multi generations experiencing, not just starvation, but a whole host of violently traumatic experiences. And so that went on for generations. So it wasn't, you know, for years, it was that person's whole life, then their child's whole life, then their great grandchild whole life, and on and on. And so I really want to think about that. And, you know, think about how it's important to I think it's important to to honor the traumas that Irish folks have gone through and also think about the traumas that are still prevalent in

Unknown Speaker 1:17:09

North American culture and around the world. And all of it both of those, as an example stemmed from white supremacy stemmed from British folks believing that they were superior Europeans coming over, including British to Turtle Island, and colonizing so colonization, white supremacy, religion, and how, by knowing that stuff, we're able to understand how we got here today. And I did a really I didn't episode a few a few episodes about religion and diet culture, we can't forget that the way that we are feeling today, if we're feeling certain ways that more often than not, it comes from white supremacy. So if you're feeling shit about yourself, it's probably facets of white supremacy. And if you are a white person, that privilege that internalized privilege alongside not meeting up, not not adhering to what white supremacy, expects of you. So it's, it's you know, it's it's, it's complicated, right? And it's interesting and and I wonder how much how much you know about your history, your family's history, if you know anything at all, or if you're able to talk to your parents, and honestly talking to my mom, and she told me stuff that I had never heard and I and we talk all the time, I've asked her so many questions. I can't even I can't even tell you how many how many we you know, I don't know if we if we said it in the in the audio with my mom there. But we've been writing a book, a question a question every week. This is this is a thing that you can buy where you ask, someone writes a biography, autobiography.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:15

Question today, what the fuck is it called? Let me tell you. Anyway, I bought it for her as a gift. And so I help her with it. Because you can just send it to someone and they'll get a question every week and they send it. I think they're really cool. It's really cool. Because then there's going to be a book like a bound book, and we can get a few copies that generations in the future are going to read of like what was what was your life like? Great, great, great, great grandma or whatever. And then maybe the world would have ended by then but who knows?

Unknown Speaker 1:19:43

Okay, so if you appreciate the podcast and you want to keep it advert free, then you can donate to me on CO fees, that's que ofI and you can go kofi, fierce, fatty you'll find me it's in the show notes. If you would like to buy me a coffee for $5 hills or you can if you want, subscribe monthly and you will get access to the size diversity resource guide. It is in Craig Abler. It has everything that you need in there to have size diversity in your life. I think it's amazing. I'm biased though. So yeah, so if you appreciate the work that I do in the podcast and you want to keep it, advert free, then go to Kofi and donate. If you can't donate at this time, then that's good. That's fine. Don't worry. I don't hate you. I hate you know.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:42

Aang Alright, well, thanks for hanging out with me today and I will see you in a why Oh, alligator, stay fair. spatty.

Episode 156 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You listen to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 156 Is Wegovy/Ozempic the Miracle Weight Loss Drug It’s Made Out to Be? Part 2

Unknown Speaker 0:24

Hello welcome, I am Vinny pronouns they/them, your host with the most just I don't know what I've got the most of sex of hell so did an episode last episode if you've not listened to it already it's a part one of this which is talking about we go V in that episode we went over what is we go v as empiric, who went over Nordisk overview of the drugs and a review of the research in a nutshell, it doesn't really work and it works a little bit. The studies are short term average two pound weight loss a month, which is called the press is absolutely something to write home about and doesn't show any type of health improvements. So it's basically six Ender. We go the exam pick, whatever, whatever name, that dock ship, dock ship. So let's turn let's look at the way that this has been marketed. The supply issues and celebrities personal stories, which is always my favorite the NoVo lawsuits and scandals other new drugs plus size influences and tic toc and so what is the solution? Ah a lot of stuff so the reason why I'm talking about this is because there has been a lot of marketing of the drug and you may or may not have seen it seen influencers taking it and being like what the fuck is this and that is because Novo has spent a shit ton of money Nova being the manufacturing company to market this and market it in a very smart way. So just like as an as a start, Novo who spent spent the most money of any pharma pharma company lobbying the AMA to make fatness a disease so, quote from Mikey Mercedes the amas decision to classify people with a word as diseased is known by weight stigma scholars and fat acceptance advocates to be a major development in fat stigmas long time presence in the United States and the sciences. As the largest professional association and lobby group for physicians and medical students in the US. The AMA is declaration that oh word is a disease provided a win for entities like insurance companies, and the O word Society, who had long reasoned classifying Oh word as a disease would do more good than harm. However, as fat acceptance advocates and weight stigma scholars predicted and maintain this move on the AMA behalf ignored the stigmatizing consequences of medical lysing body size and of endorsing a weight loss which is statistically unlikely and often harmful. As a disease quote, cure. So that's when we go V isn't a game changer but an update. So So Nova we're in there, again. Just absolutely cream in the pants being like let's let's make fatness a disease Yes, yes. Motherfuckers. That's my disease. Because if it's a disease, guess what countries governments insurance companies will pay to fix something that's a disease. If it's an aesthetic preference. They won't. So no fo has spent tons of marketing on their quote. It's bigger than me. campaign. It's bigger. That's the name of their fucking campaign to say well let's reduce weight stigma is to say it's bigger than me. ello people are fucking big. So they say weight stigma is bad. And to fix weight stigma we need to get our drug approved so we can erase fat people. They did a grand rounds in a hospital where they said their presentation was Oh word is the elephant in the room. I just love the way that they try and erase weight stigma by perpetuating weight stigma. So So I hate them. Banks, I hate it. So we have to remember that that novos legal, fiduciary responsibility, so their financial responsibility is to its shareholders and not to its patients. They want to keep their shareholders happy. And so when Novo we're going to launch, they launch we go V, they promised the fastest post approval launch in history, and doubling of the Oh, word sales between 2019 and 2025. So they're like, girls, this is gonna be big, we're gonna get the phase we're gonna, we're gonna be smart about this and tell them that ease is not life or get everyone on board to say that it's a disease, and then sell them this drug, which should temporarily make them a little bit thinner, but then we'll probably give them diabetes. And then guess what? We're going to sell them our diabetes drug fun times. That's what happened. So they have recently updated their their goal, their 2025 goal. 1.6 9 billion was their original goal. Now because there's a shortage they've updated it to 3.7 2 billion US dollars. So 1.6 9 billion to 3.7 2 billion billion BB V billion billion, billion dollars. And another thing that helps them with this, get this this this. This goal is that they have now marketed to marketed it to kids and marketing it to kids, when their own research show that kids have even worse outcomes than the adults in this in their study in their own study. Kids 12 and up. I'm going to do an episode on the American pediatrics Association. They just recommended that kids go on diets and get bariatric surgery. I think they also remake it recommended drugs and they recommended it from the age of two up so chances that no vo work was involved with that. Mm hmm. I don't know. You tell me. You tell me. So let's talk about the supply issues. I'm going to quote from an article that says that this diabetes drug is being prescribed off label for weight loss. Now there's a shortage and this is from glamour. So quote, Google searches for ozempic spiked to an all time high one week after the 2022 Met Gala. Sidenote, this is me this is when Kim Kardashian wore the Marilyn Monroe dress. And it was rumored that she used a Zen pick which is the diabetes medication that she got a doctor presumably allegedly, to prescribe off label off label means not for the thing it was intended for. To get her thin temporarily. So so that so it spiked at the 2022 Met Gala. Then searches went even higher the week after Kim. Kim shared results from a body scan that showed that she cut her body fat by 7% points in the last year down to a startling 18%. Doctors are still concerned with their patients weight so much that they have been prescribing as Empik off label in large numbers, despite potential side effects that deter even diabetics who need drugs like this to survive. So even people with diabetes are like I'd rather not. And obviously for a lot of folks it but for diabetes and what's great, I helped organize volunteer. So this is continuing. I helped organize a volunteer mutual aid network mutual aid diabetes that connects diabetics with insulin medication and supplies they need. We've heard from multiple sources that pharmacies are delaying refills for ozempic prescriptions, as Empik is already difficult to obtain as there's no generic version and it's outrageously expensive with a list price of 892 per month, which compares to $20 a month for a generic metformin and metformin is another weight loss drug, a different class of diabetes treatment drug and diabetes dream drum. But but it's prescribed all the time for weight loss. By the way, weight loss at the Metformin produces is one pound a year, you heard that one pound a year.

Unknown Speaker 10:04

So ozempic being 892 a month. That's because it's half the dosage. For we go v as Empik is exact same drug, we go V is double the dose. So we go with being 1300 Something makes sense, because it's double the dosage. I mean doesn't make sense, because I mean, it could be probably fucking $12. But so, so people who are looking to use those Empik to lose weight would need to pay double that, right. So that would be 1800 a month, but then if they get we go V, it would be 1300. But people who have diabetes would pay 892 a month, which is obviously awful, and I see myself doing this like I don't have diabetes, but I have asthma and my inhaler is I have to have two a month and they cost 220 For both are 100 Something each, and I noticed that I might add I need to really take take two posts today. And that's for something that's 220 so in plugin $900. Continuing while the US Food and Drug Administration does not have information on its website about an Olympic shortage, Australia's Therapeutic Goods Administration has issued a supply warning due to quote extensive prescribing for low management for which exempt ozempic is not indicated as MPX manufacturer has advised that the shortage will continue until the end of December 2022 I think there might be a typo should be 21 Three, the American Society of Health System Pharmacists, and the independent information website drugs.com are also reporting as MP shortage in the US due to increased demand on tick tock hashtag ozempic has 1.63 point 4 million views an increase of 107 point 8 million since the end of April the hashtag ozempic weight loss is second was 60 point 4 million views and terrifying the Zen pic challenge referring to a weight loss challenge using the drug is third with 1.7 million this and that's so that's a quote from diabetes this diabetes drug has been prescribed off label for weight loss now there's a shortage. Okay, so quote from Louise Adams and trapped podcast and now it seems we need to add incompetence to the laundry list of no vo just months after the launch of weego V in May 2021 supplies of Semak semaglutide all over the planet dried up which of course screwed over everyone with diabetes who need ozempic. The CEO and other Novo insiders have pleaded ignorance claiming that they just didn't anticipate such as strong demand which is utter bullshit. Apparently they rely on just one factory to make we go V and their supply chain chain completely imploded in December 2021. At their Belgian factory was shut down because of dodgy manufacturing practices. Novo are now planning to develop what they call in house manufacturing factories that's pocketing more money which are allegedly going into going to be operational in early 2023. They even snapped up an Old Purdue pharma factory Purdue we'll talk about this later. But Purdue if you don't know. They were the manufacturing company who sold the pharma company who sold oxycontin who are now they could declare bankruptcy after massive lawsuits because there they created the what do we call it drug epidemic? No, no, no opioid epidemic an opiate epidemic. And Louise is saying it here in that poetic and the reason why Louisa saying isn't that poetic is because what got Purdue into a shit ton of trouble is that they lied to doctors, they misinformed doctors with their marketing. They covered up the side effects and the fact that it was incredibly more addictive than what they had told doctors and so they were telling doctors to prescribe it the same as you would an ibuprofen. But we now we know it's like it is incredibly addictive. And many, many people died and basically they were profits over people, which is most pharmaceutical companies. So yeah, they snapped up an Old Purdue pharma factory. Isn't that poetic is interesting to know that while Australia struggles to deal with a massive ozempic shortage reportedly impacting 125,000 Australians with diabetes over the more lucrative American Novo American market. Novell are bragging about their success and being able to continue to serve as their brand new extremely profitable we go V customers considering that we go V is chemically the same drug as ozempic. So basically they're choosing to manufacture we go V over as Empik and put that semaglutide that they have into the weight loss drug which is more profitable for them twice is more profitable and and then it's saying to the diabetics like, sucks to be you. We've got people who want to pay more to lose weight. LOL It's utterly outrageous at Novo Nordisk are not being held accountable for the treatment of people with diabetes, it's unconscionable to impact supply of an effective diabetes medication in order to service a more lucrative weight loss market. So, you know, we can say it's kind of it's a joint it's a joint problem, it's a joint problem with Novo and they're bad manufacturing processes have got that got a factory shut down that produces the only factory that's that produces semaglutide and, and then them saying like, Oh, let's put what we have of semaglutide Mostly into we go V and then there being a shortage in places where you can't get we go V because we go V is not legal everywhere. But ozempic is, and so people doctors are saying well, we don't have we go V but we have a Zen pick, which is the same drug. I'll prescribe this to you off label and you just take it for the weight loss and also that means that they needing double the dose. So that means taking like one person who's taking his Empik theoretically and I say theoretically because you the dose of as epic as is lower and then it's built up because the side effects are so intolerable, so they have to be built up. And so someone who's taking his epic long longer term, like four months or longer are taking two doses of a Zen pick from someone with diabetes. I can't even imagine what that would be like if I needed a drug and I couldn't get it because people we were one because the the Novo Nordisk are just fucking clowns. And then and then the supply that we did have was going to people who wanted to lose weight. I'd be fucking furious. Fair, yes. Okay, so let's talk about personal stories. I'm gonna get I'm gonna give you a few from from articles, publications, whatever, and then from actual followers of Mine. So Remy Bader says she quote gained double the weight back after stopping weight loss drug as Empik and this is from people. Remi Bader is influenced, I'm not sure if she she's like a singer or anything but I think she's an influencer anyway. So quote, Bader said, it wasn't the best treatment for her as it eventually worsened her binge eating, which she struggled with for years. She explained that although she was able to lose weight from the medication, when she stopped taking it, her binge eating immediately returned. This is me talking now. Yes, that's the other thing that I've not mentioned is, is this is manufacturing.

Unknown Speaker 18:23

Extreme restriction. And what we know about our beautiful brain or beautiful body is that our brain is going to be like, Bitch, give me some fucking food. And our body is gonna be like, don't you worry, I help you. I'm going to I'm going to make it so that we are keeping hold of this weight. When they do eat when this motherfucker eats. I'll hold on to the weight. So don't you worry, the brain is like, Okay, I'll convince him to eat. I mean, come on, come on, and the drug is suppressing that brain and suppressing the body, you know, artificially being like, hey, you ain't full, you ain't full ventually the drug of when you come off the drug and even if you don't come off, and you keep keep taking it, that battle goes to worse that battle goes to our body if the drug hasn't killed us by then. And so then our brain is like focusing off the drug in that shirt. Who knows when this this person is going to start taking more drugs we need to eat, hold on to that, hold on to that food, please focus on the food because we need to regain that weight because this this body we're living in, they're unpredictable, who knows what they're going to do next. And that's a natural thing, right? That's a natural thing. That's a body doing a beautiful thing for us. And I've spoken about it before the restriction is like holding, you're holding your breath underwater, and you can will yourself and even like so something like a Zen pick. It's that's like giving you a snorkel so that you can be underwater with a snorkel or a scuba diving Thing. Thing is that gas is going to run a run out thing is you're gonna have to get out of that water soon enough, and eventually you're gonna go and that's what are bodies are doing is that our bodies are grasping for the thing it needs to survive. Continuing quote from this people article, they said I need this and I had a lot of mixed feelings she said of being prescribed as Empik a few months later I went off it and I got I got into the bad binging. I saw a doctor and they were like, it's 100 it's 100% because of I went on as Olympic Bader continued, it was making me think I wasn't hungry for so long. I lost some weight. I didn't want to be obsessed with being on it long term. I was like, I bet the second I go go off. I'm gonna get starving again. I did and my binging got so much worse. So then I kind of blamed it on ozempic. Yeah. The cut wrote, you might go through hell for your post ozempic body. Multiple women I spoke with experienced incessant vomiting. Another said she had heart rate spikes so strong they woke her up at night. Remember, on ozempic Extra 3.5 beats a minute. You notice that right an extra 3.5 beats a minute you notice that? Continuing yet, the even perceived benefit can be short lived, you will most likely gain the weight back after going off the medication. Anna tuk a 42 year old podcaster in New York was an ideal candidate for as Empik since she's diabetic, the drug can lower her blood sugar and help her pancreas produce insulin. laser focus on these goals as well as losing weight, which can also put type two diabetes in remission. Hey, this line is is misleading. Losing weight. The act of having a smaller body does not put type two diabetes in remission. That's false. It's a myth. Some people who lose weight will do other things to lose weight like eat different things or move their body you know moving your body has been shown to be helpful for those with diabetes, but you know what the most helpful thing is, is taking drugs and thin people are not told to lose weight to manage their diabetes. Because it doesn't work. But fat people high your fat your diabetes is called your fatness. Again it's not it's mostly a genetic condition condition. Anyway, but see even when something where they're even in a piece where it's like as Empik is not great for weight loss they still put fucking weight stigma in there. Okay, anyway continuing she visited a well known and endocrinologist in Manhattan and asked about ozempic About after reading about it in The New York Times. By the way, the New York Times came out with a piece where they they framed it as weight stigma is bad. Why don't we get this drug approved. If we if we loved fat people, we would make them not fat by making them take as MP and every single person who was quoted in the article whose payroll was a yes, Novo Nordisk they were on Nova Nautilus payroll. So basically, this New York Times piece was a free ad for as Empik disguised as a genuine piece about weight stigma. And there was no note or disclosure of conflict of interest. Every single person that quoted was paid by novo. Anyway, continuing. I'm like, there's so much there's so much information I've learned about this stuff during this this this podcast, I'm just like, or anyway, he warned me it wouldn't be fun. So even the endocrinologist was like Burgesses and this ain't this ain't fun. Okay, continuing hell ensued to started on weekly injections of weekly injections. Shit of point two five milligrams with intentions to build up to one milligram, which is when most patients according to the doctors I spoke with, see more significant weight loss within a week, quote, I had no energy constant nausea, and what I call power puking. She told me, a friend of hers described it as scrubbed it as the kind of puking so bad you have to look away. Instead of stopping as Empik Tink asked a doctor to go up to point 50 milligrams. I wanted to keep my eye on the prize my health and that post is empty. Body She says her doctor obliged and that's when things went, quote truly haywire. She was so sick all the time that on her 42nd birthday, she only felt comfortable seeing her mum, that night to volume vomited again. And her mother told you told her you can't live like this. Tonight doctor was hesitant to prescribe a cocktail of drugs to alleviate her symptoms. I'd share how I was doing and he'd say, Yeah, this class of drugs comes with bad side effects, which I felt like was, well, you've got yourself fat. So yeah, it might suck to be on this drug. As a September trip to Italy approached tonight had a breakthrough. I realized that there are worse things and being fat. She says the worst thing you can be is wanting to barf all the time. She went herself off as Empik and went to Italy without it. I think it takes about five weeks for you for it to get out of your system and I could feel it leaving my body she says my periods have been weird. And as soon as I hit that five week mark, I had them had the monster period of my life. For others that gastric gastro intestinal side effects weren't even the main issue. Mila Clark 32, who has latent autoimmune diabetes, ladder diabetes, and runs a well known blog in the diabetes community chronicled taking ozempic for her 30,000 YouTube subscribers subscribers last year. She tells me she lost weight quickly, but it actually frightened her how little she wanted to eat. Sometimes I would drink a glass of water and I would be full for the entire day. Then read that again. Sometimes I would drink a glass of water and I would be full for the entire day. What does that sound like? A typical manner anorexia, that famous quote from Who is it Lisa dobro. Are we prescribing for fat people what we diagnosed as eating disorders in thin people she got over No, it wasn't either of those who was it that said that quote is gonna escape me anyway. Someone amazing. She got over other side effects like nausea and acid reflux in a month. But within a week of starting the drug, she kept getting the same Apple Watch notification telling her that her heart rate was high. She said she brought it up with a doctor who initially said it was probably anxiety because he thought heart palpitations went doc a document a side effect of or is it of his Empik. And they didn't say in here. A couple months later, she quit the medication, I could feel my heart beating out of my chair. She said it was hard to breathe. I was woken up in the middle of the night from his heart palpitations, and I could just not take it anymore. afterwards. She heard from other people experiencing these symptoms too. I'm grateful I made that choice and that my doctors supported that choice because my mom recently passed away from a heart attack. clock says Jesus did that doctor, the doctor didn't even know about the frickin increased heart rate. And so then he wouldn't have known to say hey, have you? Has your mom died recently from a heart attack? Oh, she has made me make this.

Unknown Speaker 28:10

So there's this there's there's groups. This is this one article I read. I don't know if I'm gonna quote it. But this one article I read was saying that there's groups Facebook groups for for ozempic or, or GLP ones for weight loss. Two people to share their experiences. One of the groups the first rule is you are not allowed to share negative side effects because we're so inundated with people posting about negative side effects that all this group would be would be people posting about negative side effects and we want to keep it positive that's in there like you have to agree that to the group rules if that ain't rockin red flag that the number one thing they said what is it like multiple posts in a day people complaining about the side effects? Well, hello. Wow. Okay, so there's this other article people are buying raw chemicals to concoct DIY as Empik at home, this is from Jezebel love this product reads a review for the hormone semaglutide on the website for accelerate labs. It works well for one it is Reese another on Union you need a new you new life, your new life. A company that claims it on its quote about page that it quote makes no claims to the efficacy of any treatment procedures or supplements and advisors. Its products are quote, not for human consumption. Of course that's exactly what these reviewers are doing. Consuming, mixed and home semaglutide The working ingredient for in fad weight loss drugs of Zen pick and we Go V isn't big and we go we have skyrocketed in popularity over the past year. Celebrities like Kim Kardashian and Mindy Kaling have been rumored to use a type two diabetes drug to slim down even hosting parties. Like the Botox bought balls of your Elon Musk even admitted to using his Empik tweeting that it quote appears to be effective in appetite control with minor side effects. So why are folks buying raw semaglutide? Well without insurances Empik costs around 696 967 for a four milligram pen. Whereas accelerate Labs is selling five milligrams of semaglutide for 180. People desperate for this miracle pound shedding peptide are hungry pun intended for that kind of deal. So hungry that they're willing to overlook the real dangers of DIY medicine. Please don't do that. If you're listening. Please, I should have not mentioned the the names of the places you can get that from the drugs we go V and as Ambit contain semaglutide. But they also contain other things. And it's mixed together in a dose, right? These people are just a mixed, they're mixing it at home. And that is so unsafe. And the drugs unsafe already. You don't need to add to that. Really, please don't do that. So I surveyed my Instagram audience to see you know where you're at what's going on? What do you think? So the first question is that, have you heard of ozempic? We go v semaglutide. Before? And then I asked also, did you hear it from someone who is anti fat? So someone who is anti fat could be your doctor prescribing it? It could be an influencer that's using it or it could be you know, a news ad? Or did you hear from a pro fat res pro fat source or a pro fat source could be someone like me, a fat activist, someone pointing out the dangers of the drug? And so have you heard of this drug? Yes. From an anti fat source? 42%. And that's 71 votes? Yes. From a pro fat source. 43 votes and 25%? Yes, I don't know the source 15% and 25 votes and not heard of it. 31 votes at 18%. So 82% of people have heard about this drug who follow me. Next question. Are you taking we go V or ozempic? No. 91% 157 votes? Yes. Three votes. That's 2%. No, but a different drug for weight loss 2% and three votes. And actually I messaged those people and I said, Oh, what drug was it? And then one person said, I'll accidentally press that button. So less, and it was Metformin. And finally 5% Yes, but for diabetes, nine votes. So most people aren't taking it. Three people were out of 160 ish votes. Did your doctor next question tell you all the warnings including the box warning for thyroid cancer? Yes, told me all the warnings for votes. Told me some four votes. Didn't tell me any 10 votes. That's really fucking scary. So 14 People said that they weren't told any or only some and four people were told all the warnings, but then again, do they know what all the warnings are? You know? Then I had a box saying like what is it you want me to know? Do you have any experiences that you want to share anything you want to ask me or tell me or whatever? So someone said isn't it true that as soon as she stopped taking observe as Empik you'll gain back? gain the weight back? Yep, that's what the study is showing. Someone says the list of side effects is usually too concerning to assent incentivize me to take any? Yeah. Someone says extender has a high risk if you have pancreatic cancer in your family, and that's not known enough. So Meanwhile, says I was told when I record a when I was recommended a GLP. So GLP that's the the thing in all of them diabetes and weight loss. I was told when I was recommended a GLP that quote, There are no cons to the drugs to the drug. Is that irresponsible to say? What do we think? Yes, it is very irresponsible to say there are no cons or side effects to a drug. So I'm going to quote here from the AMA Journal of ethics. Informed consent, What must a fish physician disclose to a patient involved consent is at the heart of shared decision making a recommended approach to medical treatment decision in which patients actively participate with their doctors, patients must have adequate information if they are able to play a significant role in making decisions that reflect their own values, and preferences. And physicians play a key role as educators in this process. And so they talk about here like the legalities of it. And they talk about here like the the inception of this and the story about how this man was given surgery, and then there was a 1% risk of paralysis and he got paralysis, and the doctor hadn't told him and the patient sued. And then these kind of these outline key pieces to say, like what doctors need to do in the future, so that patients have are able to give informed consent. So the court held that instead of here adhering to the community disclosure, standard standard, physicians are now required to disclose information if it is reasonable to do so. Essentially, to establish true informed consent, a physician is now required to disclose all risks that might affect a patient's treatment decisions. So basically, if you were to take a drug, and you weren't told about the side effects, and then you had the side effects, that is something that you could sue the doctor for. Someone says, how do people get access to this? I'm 100% not going to take it just curious how a doctor decides to prescribe it. Yeah, so mentioned in the last episode, to be prescribed, we go V, which is not legal in Canada, or UK. It is in in the US. So first is living live in America.

Unknown Speaker 38:12

And then you have to have a BMI of minimum 27 plus another comorbidity. So basically, you have to have a condition that's related to fatness, which is absolutely bullshit, or have a BMI of 30 and have no conditions. And then it would be prescribed if you're in other countries. Doctors are prescribing ozempic, which is the diabetes drug off label. And theoretically, there would be no, they could just do whatever right. If their patients want it. They can prescribe it off label. So when you're seeing people on social media holding up the week over thing, it's likely that they're in America, right? Okay, continuing the egg burps they didn't warn me of the side of any side effects except possible stomach discomfort. I was given it as a treatment for PCOS. A year ago I did feel less hungry but I couldn't deal with the egg books. So I read that out of order. Just the egg works. By the way, weight loss is not a treatment for PCOS. There are many resources out there to to to talk about how you treat PSP so s outside of weight loss. It's well established that weight gain is caused by PCOS not the other way around. Weight Gain doesn't cause PCOS. I was offered it because my blood work was quote close to type two diabetes and it would help me lose weight. It was clear it was about weight loss but using blood work is a scare tactic. Yeah, so that's the thing is the pre diabetes is a scam pre diabetes is not a real condition. pre diabetes is when someone has normal blood work blood, their blood looks good and 3% of people who have pre diabetes go on to have type two diabetes it's absolute bullshit marketing tactic from drug companies it's not a thing. Losing weight is not going to stop you from having diabetes if you have that genetic predisposition for it. Someone says do they screen for eating disorders before prescribing? The answer is there's been no no one is no one has said told them to do that. I mean, how often have you has your doctor said to you eat less and exercise more without asking you what you eat and how much you exercise lose weight without asking you if you have had a history of eating disorder so and if you are I would, I would guess that people who have eating disorders or history of eating disorder are more likely to to seek out something to make them thin Okay, here's someone who is not sure what their job is exactly, but currently have a team patient with severe malnutrition and new eating disorder after being prescribed this drug. Along with metformin, Metformin is another diabetes weight loss drug, but with very low weight loss about a year ago in the setting of quote, excessive weight gain and PCOS. Timing considering the horrific AAP guidelines that just came out and expecting I will see more of it. In the coming months. Pediatricians are causing so much harm. Yeah, just to think that some poor kids are being anyone. Okay, I was on it for type two diabetes but was taking off it in late November after being on it for more than a year. The side effects for me were way were just too bad and did not go away. I know others on it also for diabetes who have had no side effects. I also have a friend who quite sadly keeps trying to convince her doctor to let her take it and she is not a diabetic. I was on it for pre diabetes and weight loss for three months before I could not handle it anymore. It made me nauseous with the first injection. The by the second week, I was no longer able to eat. I was so sick. I told my doctor about this that I was going days without eating and was told good. Maybe you can finally lose weight. in month two I stopped digesting what little food I did eat. Trigger warning here graphic descriptor description of vomiting. Skip ahead 30 seconds. One day I threw up. This is gross, sorry. And it was the eggs I had eaten the day before. 26 hours earlier. The food was just sitting in my stomach and not moving. I was dizzy and exhausted all the time because I was eating under 300 calories a day. It was traumatic. I had to stop working and go on disability. At the three month mark I convinced my doctor it wasn't worth it. Please give me something else and came off it took six months to get my stomach back to normal normal not worth it and I was treated with no compassion about the side effects because I'm a fat person. On a side note, I have chronic pain from age four. I had a 15 year eating disorder and many other health issues including IBS and Hashimotos and mental health struggles like depression and anxiety anxiety is Empik messed me up in all facets of my health. It made everything worse but the doctor didn't care. He didn't care because I lost 15 pounds I just so fucked up. And yeah, that lessens the doc didn't care because I lost 15 pounds. Doesn't didn't care that I can't work from the horrific side effects that I can't eat for days. If a thin person said I cannot eat that would be He immediately holy shit we need to this is this is malnutrition and fat people are just as easily able to be malnourished as thin people how to say this is so this is another one hard to say why I'm taking as Empik I have insulin resistance and the doctor says it's for that but it sure is how feels weight loss is wanted because that is how efficiency is being measured before blood draws. I don't feel trust even though my doctor does the most most possible for not doing a weight center treatment but doesn't feel right yeah yeah because what's what's wait got to do with it. Another story my mother was prescribed sucks Ender after a truly terrible doctor visit full of fat shaming. My mom is the same size as me, someone who's a mid fat. Her doctor who she had been seeing for 20 years recently went on an anti fat rampage and talked to my mother and talked to my mother and sister in really abusive ways and insisted my mother go on sucks Ender for weight loss. My mum swear she wanted it to because she's because she's just internalized so much anti fat bias over her life. She wasn't told the implication of the meds and was violently throwing up when she took it. She did stop taking it thankfully she's also been denied health care and has been told is because of her weight, she needs a knee replacement and her doctor says she quote has to lose at least 40 pounds before doing the surgery. It's so enraging

Unknown Speaker 46:40

healthcare being held hostage is it's just so distressing right to end and you know, for your mom and your sister to we've experienced that, like it makes me want to go in and and just

Unknown Speaker 46:59

you know, tell off that doctor this person says literally every one of my best friends is using it is so hard trying to be on a journey of body neutrality and intuitive eating well friends, while watching Wait, literally pour off all my friends help. Yeah, this is tough. This is really tough, you know what, and I have have compassion for your friends because it's almost as it's almost guaranteed that in a year's time, they're going to be the same way a highway. And, and that's the thing is with anything like this, it can be really difficult, you know, because we've got FOMO I could be taking this drug and I could be thin and seeing your friends doing it, people that you love and care about and they're losing weight. Like shit. They're seeing success from this drug. This is touted as a miracle drug. And, and so, of course, of course, and, and so what I say to a lot of folks is no matter what it is, if someone's gone on diet, they're having stomach amputation, surgery, stomach squeezing surgery, whatever the taking pills, is. See if you can wait it out. And just see what happens. Because what study show what years and years of, of, of, of experience and seeing what happens with this stuff is it's not going to probably work out for them. And so that's really tough for them. And it's hard for you to see them go through that and also that hope of maybe you should do that thing and that they're hope of I finally got a thing that's going to help me is really tough. It's really tough. And especially to see you know, people on frickin Tiktok and Instagram being like I'm taking this thing from my house. And now we know now you've listened to these episodes, we know that it's not going to make us thinner, long term, and it's not going to improve our health

Unknown Speaker 49:28

someone says I had a doctor prescribe it to me last year for a few months. It was horrible, but it did lead that did lead to a discussion with my therapist that ended up with me opening up about disordered eating and I've been working with a fat positive nutritionist to eat more ever since the meds get did give me horrible acid reflux that never went away though. Also, the doctor told me about the side effects, but did say that they weren't important and They were really just the FDA being overly cautious. Which is not true. Is not true the FDA are not being overly cautious with a warning. That's that's a doctor that you could you could say guess what, with Purdue and

Unknown Speaker 50:31

oxycontin that is the exact message that they gave to doctors that the FDA is being overly cautious they Purdue what was even before the drug was recalled was was forced to write forced to give a huge settlement but also forced to write letters to doctors saying they are really addictive. And then that letter was followed up with a visit from a sales rep who said hey, that letter the FDA made it write it and they know it's a load of rubbish, but you know, you know how it is. They're being overly over cautious. And it's actually really fine. They had sales conferences, sales meetings at Purdue, making jokes about how addictive it is and how to trick doctors into believing it wasn't that addictive. And so what are the what are the chances that this company who is inside a gang busters absolutely bananas revenue stream from this drug is gonna tell doctors, the FDA is being overly cautious. What are the chances? I'd say pretty pretty good. This person says I went to my doctor with disordered eating concerns and was told his Empik was a great drug for weight loss because that's exactly what you need when you have disordered eating is something that's going to give you more disordered eating and that I should consider it since my weight was clearly bothering me. I said no thank you and I heard it it had bad side effects and she said most people agree that Nausea is no big deal I still declined absolutely outrageous. Outrageous so mad about it. All of these stories are just I keep thinking about I have so I have IBS and I have to go and probably get another you know camera at the bottom. And the last time I saw the gastric intolerant gastroenterologist she was like, ah, who knows what you've got, but you should lose weight. Because that's gonna that's gonna make you not have IBS. lol at that time, I wasn't I didn't know know any of this stuff. And so I was just kind of like and so that's something that's been coming up and I've just been thinking about it so much because I'm going back to the same person about her bringing up as Empik or something. And I've been having conversations with are in my mind of me being like so angry and just being like, okay, so have asked me if I have a history of disordered eating. Have you asked me if this is something that that is safe for me have you asked me if I have a history of a thyroid cancer in my family? Have you asked him like no have you got any evidence based way for me to lose weight no. So why the fuck are you telling me this unethical, non evidence based thing like recommending this thing that is that is that is a fucked up. So novo, they've got they've had many lawsuits and scandals. So five years ago, Novo Nordisk was ordered to pay 58.6 5 million to the federal government and state Medicaid programs for misleading physicians about the potential risk for developing medulla re thyroid carcinoma. MTC a rare form of cancer while taking Victoza so remember, Victoza is the diabetes version or success saxenda Seven whistleblowers came forward, alleging that some Novo Nordisk sales representative downplayed the significance of the FDA requirement for disclosure saying it was unimportant or in error. According to the government's complaint, Novo Nordisk actually provided sales teams with training specifically intended for them to learn how to assuage any concerns about the FTAs disclosure requirement during conversations with physicians following the training sales rep. presented his use tactics like claiming physician should not be concerned about MTC because it's easy to treat if a patient does get it that year, Victoza prescribes prescriptions generated more than 1 billion in sales, so 1 billion in sales and their penalty was 58 point 6 million. It makes financial sense for them to lie and to look mislead. This is a quote from drug watch. New investigations have documented Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk, and Sanofi, who are the big three insulin manufacturers have raised insulin prices in lockstep for years Bloomberg, which first reported on the pattern called it shadow pricing, meaning one company shadowing another price price increased by almost the same amount. The difference is usually so small that there's no competitive advantage for one product over the others. In November 2016, two members of Congress, Senator Bernie Bernie Sanders and of Vermont and rep. Elijah Cummings authored a letter to the US Justice Department and Federal Trade Commission calling for investigations into the price hikes by three companies and others. The three companies were named among the defendants in a 69 count class action lawsuit. In a New Jersey federal court the suit claimed the manufacturers colluded with pharmacy benefit managers to fix insulin prices and violated federal antitrust laws. The three BP BB EMS named in the suit, CVS Health Express Scripts and optim R X control 80% of the industry overseeing prescription coverage of 180 million Americans no and also shipped. Just two months later, in May 2017, Eli Lilly raised the price of their insulin drug by 7.8% to $274 for a 10 milliliter vial, Novo Nordisk followed suit raising the price of its competing insulin 7.9% to 274. So $1 difference, a difference between the two prices of just 88 cents this is from first Pharma. After Novo Nordisk allegedly told investors it was resistant to industry wide insulin pricing pressures. Some shareholders brought a class action lawsuit claiming they were misled. On Friday in a federal district court in New Jersey Novo Nordisk agreed to $100 million settlement with those disgruntled investors. This is from a quote from Louise in untrapped podcast quote in the USA concerns about pancreatic cancer risks with liraglutide led to a staggering 1500 lawsuits against Novo and Merck who also make a GLP one agonist diabetes drug. Novo have also pissed off the US government in September 2022. They cuffed up coughed up 6.3 million American dollars to settle another lawsuit was which was brought by the Department of Justice, which accused them of violating US law by selling injection needles to the government that hat that it had manufactured in countries that were not designated. And it seems that Novo just still haven't learned from their 58 million lawsuit because they're back at it back again in very hot water with the PMC pa which is the prescription medicines Code of Practice authority in the UK for this time running over training, which was actually an advert for six Ender, and they didn't go disclose that they were paying for the whole thing. The PMC Pa said that it was very concerned about the potential impact on patient safety proper by providing unbalanced information to a wide audience and they were so concerned about novice behavior that they they're going to undergo an audit which is the highest level of punishment that the PC pm CPA can make. So, if we look about if we look at what I mentioned Fen Fen before so Fen Fen there's there's an episode where talk about Fen Fen Google like diet drugs. I think, yeah, it was a couple of years ago. So Fen Phen was released in 99 to Fen Phen was a diet drug that killed people right. With Fen Fen was released in 1992. In 1994, they were aware of 48 cases of cardiovascular disease and pull them out pulmonary hypertension, but they only reported for to the FDA The side effects were predicted, okay. In their research, they saw that it caused issues with the heart. And and then people reported it, and then they didn't report it to the FDA, they got caught lying and the drug wasn't removed. And so I'm thinking with we go V, we know that the side effects that's going to come up, right? Cancer and the heart and you know, all these other side effects.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:31

And so it's going to take a couple of years for people to be reporting these two we go V is we go, we're gonna be telling the FDA, I mean, from their past history, they've not been an ethical company, obviously focused on profits. So they, they told the FDA, oh, only four people, only four is fine. And the 41 cases that were reported, there were probably many, many others that weren't reported. Right. So they continue selling the drug. In 1997. A study showed that the people were having heart problems, and the combination drug was recalled. And there was a 4.7 5 billion settlement in 2000. So the drug was on the market for five years. And there's an estimate estimate that 342 million prescriptions were filled in that time. And so we know that them they made way more profits and 4.7 5 billion. And so the settlement is, I mean, it's worth it for them. And the way that we go V is marketed is, is right out of the Purdue pharma playbook. If you want to learn more about Purdue pharma watch dope sick on Disney plus, such a good series devastating. absolutely outrageous. So let's summarize all of this. And then we'll talk quickly about some other things or some other drugs and whatnot. So ozempic, we go v semaglutide. Alongside dieting and exercise will make you lose weight, just like any diet will. And over just over a year, it's about two pounds a month. So the average weight loss for 68 weeks 5056 to 68 Weeks was 18 to 33 pounds. That's the success under study as well. Just like all other diets out there begins to fail at approximately approximately approximately for a year for those who continue to take it. Those who stopped taking it see their weight regain. We have no long term data showing how much regain but a year after stopping the drug those with moderate weight loss regain two thirds of preintervention weight. Those who had more significant weight loss regained more weight and rapidly 95% of people have side effects most common side effects like nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, stomach pain, headache, fatigue, upset stomach dizziness, feeling bloated belching, gas, stomach flu and heartburn 10% has serious side effects like pancreatitis which can lead to pancreatic cancer, gall stones, gastrointestinal issues, acute kidney injury suicidal ideation and behaviors we go and sex Ender come with a blackbox warning or a box warning for fibroid C cell tumors. Okay thyroid cancer, the highest safety related warning that medications can have assigned by the FDA. Every single one of the studies 14 authors for we go V disclosed receiving funds of some kind from Novo Nordisk, and three authors were actually employed by Novo and owned stock owned stock. It has not been approved to be covered by insurance so from the Canada agency for drugs and technologies in health, quote, even though results from for clinical trials showed that patients treated with we go V for 68 weeks, so the full clinical trials were wrapped up into one paper, by the way, lost more weight compared to those who received a placebo. There was no evidence to show this weight loss translates to improvements in weight related comorbidities, example cardiovascular complications, osteoarthritis, and sleep apnea because they were not studied. Although results showed improvements in the health related quality of life. Why would someone have huge improvements in health related quality of life if they have a lower weight? I wonder could it be weight stigma The minimally importance difference was not met. And so the they're saying the improvements were so low, and it remains unknown if the differences were clinically meaningful appetite suppressants can disrupt our relationship with hunger signals, which can lead to eating disorders. That's not a quote from the Canada thing. But that's just me talking also is an experimental drug and patients are not able to give informed consent. They are not ethical evidence based medications. Long story short, don't bother. I mean, if you're a diabetic and you're taking it for diabetes, you know if it works for you, great. Also we have more Manjaro morn Manjaro aka Terzi peptide peptide, Terzi peptide manufactured by Eli Lilly Tirzah, retired is diabetes drug. Oh, Eli Lilly, we're like, people can lose a little bit. So it's in the newest of the drugs. It was approved in the US middle of 2022 for type two diabetes. And doctors are already prescribing it off label for weight loss Masano. Exact same outcomes. We also have resellers of these drugs. An example of a reseller is a company calibrate, who will have. So it'll be it'll be like a company saying we help you lose weight. And so we give you a drug and we offer you counseling, and we offer you a meal plan, right. And then they will prescribe they will help you get a prescription for a drug, which you shouldn't be getting a prescription for, if you for whatever reason. And so they will tell you the things to say to your doctor to get a prescription. They have small print on their website where they indemnify themselves. And so if you want to bring a class action lawsuit against against them, when you have bad outcomes, then you can't because they have they've protected themselves so that you can't sue them for if you die, you know Jordan Underwood on Instagram is great using they he pronouns who says unless social media people explicitly this explicitly say that they are fat lib. Don't be surprised when they pedal ozempic. So you are going to see if you've not already people who you follow plus size influencers normally it's people who call themselves like a plus size influencer plus plus size fashionista, saying I'm thinking about my house, I'm going on as Empik. And that is probably going to be very disappointing and triggering and sad. And you know, anyone who's on it, I just want to say if if it's if it's working for you great. If you know you do what you want, right? But also hit you know, these two episodes is saying like here, here's the real evidence, here's a real information about it. And and I understand, you know, I am mad at the drug manufacturers, I'm mad at the doctors. I am sad that people feel like they have to take it because they feel like there is no other way. Right? And I feel great compassion for those people. And I just I feel like, Oh, someone I know. One of my neighbors mentioned that he started taking it and I just I'm just like, oh, you know, and, you know, what do I say as a fact of est in that situation is is is? You know, I hope it works out for you. I hope it does what you want it to do, you know, I don't hope that you're going to have all these adverse reactions and that you're going to end up being a higher weight and be sad, and it cause issues for you. I hope but I know that statistically that it's very much likely not going to be helpful for you. And so it makes me sad that these people have been tricked into this dangerous drug. And yeah, and so if someone finds it intolerable to live in a world that hates fat people, which makes sense, I mean, Jesus is awful. And as well if you have other marginalized identities if you are disabled or a person of color, if you're if you're poor, etc, etc, etc. All these other things will also play into wanting to get relief. And if someone says to you, this is going to give you relief from issues real or perceived, then it makes sense that you would say Yes, even if there's bad side effects. And also, if you are taking this drug and you're not seeing weight loss, please no, it is not your fault. You're not doing anything wrong. It's the drugs fault because the drug doesn't work in the way that we've been told that it works. So, what Jordan Underwood is saying, He's saying that unless someone is explicitly Hey, I'm fat positive, and I like being fat, and I want fat people to thrive and survive and all that type of stuff, then

Unknown Speaker 1:10:39

you can presume that they're not. Because if they're not talking about that stuff, that stuff's important, right? And so then don't be surprised when they're like, hey, as MP is great. A lot as well. A lot of people are being being sponsored, right. So we're not on Tik Tok. That was traumatic. There's a lot of fat doctors who were using the hashtag when I say fat doctors, not doctors who are fat but doctors who apparently treat fatness. So basically, con artists. One said one of them says fat people's brains are diseased. And so they were using they were you he was using the language of, of, you know, anti weight stigma is not the fat people's fault. He says fat people's brains are diseased. And so you need to take his Empik there were people showing before and afters it was a barrage of of triggering content. One doctor who specializes in fatness responded to a real where a fat person says she's gained double the weight back. And then. And then. So she says this person is doing energy saying I gained double the weight back and then the doctor comes on screen and says, Wow, what is that? What does the study show and then she shows a study where it shows people are gaining weight. And then she shows a follow up study where it shows that people gain two weight. And she says it doesn't say that they gain weight. And I'm like, What? What? So then, you know, literally showing like graphs and stuff and then just trying to trick here. And so then you're like, Oh, it's a doctor who showed me a graph. Hmm. They're hoping that you don't see that the graph behind is in the shape of a tick. So you don't see? And she was like, Well, I mean, if you come off it of course you're going to lose weight. And was like Well, that's what the person just said. What are you talking about? It just doesn't make sense. So what are the solutions? What are the solutions? So if you want to lose weight how do you lose weight? Unfortunately there is no way long term which I know is devastating you can temporarily lose weight not everyone can but you know

Unknown Speaker 1:13:10

to what end but the thing is though, you know we were like what a temporarily lose weight.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:20

I've got a wedding coming up, I want it to be thin for my wedding. weight cycling is so harmful for you really is and you know some people value thinness so much that they you know, they'll take that they'll take the harms of of weight cycling but please don't be sad when you when you are not thin or thinner forever and then actually become bigger because of it. So then people will say Well shit, well, does that mean that they're not that I'm going to be unhealthy forever? Well, Health at Every Size has shown us that if you engage in health promoting behaviors, one health promoting behavior for example, not smoking. People who are fat and and don't smoke have pretty much the exact same outcomes and life expectancy of those who are thin and smoke. Or if you engage in other health promoting activities, basically any risk from fatness is is disappeared. And when we say risk from fatness it's most likely the bias that you're experiencing it's most likely the weight cycling and it's most likely as a subpar healthcare that that shows that the fat folks have higher risk in certain areas. Not the fatness on someone's body. So we can improve our health sometimes not always because most of health is not in our control but if you Want to improve your strength, your flexibility, your stamina, etc, you can do that through, you know, physiotherapy or yoga or, or strength training or you know, etc, etc, etc, the same thing as what a thin person will do. And yeah, it might be more difficult in a bigger body. But there is no way to make your body long term, a smaller body. And that might be something that you just have to have to learn to live with, when it's sometimes people can't accept that, and they and they say, Well, you know, I really want it and I know you really want it. And so it might be that you need to go and do take a drug, it might be that you need to go and have surgery to really convince yourself that it's not possible for you. And maybe you might be the, you know, the percent, you might be the percent that it will work out for, and everything's good for you. And if that's the case, and that's great for you. But the chances are that you're going to be in the 95 plus percent where it doesn't work out like that, and I don't want you to blame yourself. So what is the answer to to all of this stuff health of every size, it's reducing weight stigma, it's learning to accept ourselves and unlearning health ism, and throwing Novo nor discs. We go V in the bin, and all the other weight loss drugs in the bin. Yeah, so I'm leaving here. My goodness, we've gone gone gone long on this show as well. If you've enjoyed our show together today, then I have Koh Phi Kofi where you can buy me a coffee. Or if you would like the size diversity Resource Guide, which has everything you need to help get size diversity into your life. Books, TEDx talks, where to shop podcasts, etc, etc. for five bucks, you can subscribe and you will get your hands on that immediately. So yeah, thanks for hanging out with me today. I really appreciate you being here. And I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Goodbye.

Episode 155 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 155, Is Wegovy/Ozempic the Miracle Weight Loss Drug It’s Made Out to Be? Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:26

Hello, welcome to this episode. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby. Pronouns they them. Coming to you from the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish people's Squamish slaver tooth, and Musqueam nations. We have a jam packed episode today. In fact, I think I'm gonna have to split it into two. I've don't think I've ever done a to two parter before. Yeah, so it's giant. Before we start just a kind of a note on last episode about fat bias in the media. Some of the It's come to my attention is that I noted that Rebecca Poole was the most quoted person and in regards to academics, and and I said that she was seen and I think I said something like, Well, you know, at least she's fighting the good fight and something like that. Not those exact words, but actually, I found out she is in and also she is one of the people who is touting fatness as a disease rhetoric, or up wah, wah. So she is one of those people who say, be nice to fat you say can't help being fat and greedy. So yeah, I take back saying hey, well, Alicia is on our side kind of thing. She's not so anyway, so today we are talking about all of the stuff that you might have been seeing on the internet, maybe you've you've experienced it in your life or seen friends and family start taking weight loss drugs because in the last couple of years we've had a big uptick in awareness of these new drugs than I actually know but new new dosing and marketing for weight loss and yeah, like what what do we know about it and I've spoken about we go V like two years ago when it had just been in 2021 when it had just been approved by the FDA.

Unknown Speaker 3:03

and so I was like I spoke about this like three minutes ago but I mean Jesus Christ time goes really quick. But now we've had a little bit of time for the marketing machine to do its work and for the drug to get into people's hands and see what's happening. And so let's talk about it and all the different kinds of different names and variations and and all that type of stuff this episode I don't know if you can hear it in the background but my computer my laptop my MacBook Air it's fighting for its life the fan is going because this document that I have in in Google in Google notes is absolutely huge and it's so big my computer's like no Why Why are you giving us as one of the major non stop at which goes to show the amount of research that has gone into this episode it's been two full days plus extra hours here and there researching this podcast so it's a been a big undertaking for me and and if that's something that you appreciate and you appreciate me producing a free podcast for you where we have no adverts and consider giving a donation, buy a cup of coffee, a cup of tea whatever for me on Koh Phi or Kofi rather, I just want to say Ko Phi Ko Phi just sounds right right. But anyway Kofi ko if I face Valley link in the show notes. There you can do a one time donation or five bucks or if you would like the size diversity resource guide, you can set up a a monthly donation for five bucks or 10 bucks or 20 bucks. You'll get extra perks if you choose the higher levels. The size of Su resort guide guide is awesome but want to say but it is full stop. And so if you appreciate this work of activism for free, and me taking like 75 years of my life to do the research, and exposed myself to these doctors on tick tock, I'm traumatized. And if that is something that you you can do, then I would really, really appreciate it. Okay, so what we're gonna be talking about probably over these two episodes, because it's so gigantic is one what is we go vi slash as Empik slash semaglutide. Slash all of the other names that we have out there, who are Novo Nordisk the manufacturers. Overview of the drugs, review of the research, the marketing using weight stigma, supply issues and celebrities using it. Personal stories from those who have used it, Novo Nordisk lawsuits and scandals, other new drugs, plus size influences and tick tock and finally, so what's the solution? And trigger warning for these episodes? Why are we mentioning poor outcomes slash side effects that include suicide ideation? Digestive type issues. Is there any other trigger warning? So I should mention, I mean, well, you know, just the whole anti fatness of the thing and the whole depressing nature that these drugs exist. So if any of that is not feeling good for you, then skip this episode, as well, when I come to this one story, which is a little bit more kind of mentions a little bit more in detail, and I'll just do a trigger one before that. So if that's just one thing, that's not feeling good for you, then the one thing is about, like digestive stuff, so I'll do it. I'll do it before. I'll do another little one before that if you want to skip that bit. Okay, so basically this whole weight loss drug thing. It's not new. We've been we've been weight loss drugs have been around for ages, but weight loss drugs as a concept. There they are based on a set of faulty presumptions and those faulty biz op presumptions that have led to our current waste weight loss drugs, six of them. Number one, these drugs are created based on the belief that having a fat body is unhealthy and an desirable Okay, so that is a faulty assumption. Fat people can be healthy, then people can be unhealthy fat bodies are not diseased things that need to not exist.

Unknown Speaker 8:03

Number two, it presumes that making a body smaller will mean that body is now healthy and desirable. What we know about weight loss is that it's not the actual weight loss that increases health. It's health promoting behaviors that might have been engaged in during that weight loss and then it's prescribed a weight loss. Yeah, number three, but any means necessary to obtain a smaller body is tolerable, as fatness is so abhorrent and an unhealthy you'll see stories here today from folks whose doctors seem to absolutely not give a shit what happens to them as long as they're a few pounds small. The next assumption is that the solution to anti fat bias is erasing the world of fat people. So you'll see in our episode is is that Novo Nordisk the marketing. The marketing company, might as well call it a marketing company, the pharmaceutical company behind these drugs have co opted fat liberatory language and because we're getting smarter when it comes to marketing, they're not saying you know, fat people are subhuman, like what they probably have done in the past. They're saying that it's not fat people's fault. Therefore, we should get them the treatment that they need to no longer be a fat person and read the planet of these poor diseased souls. The next assumption is that fat people are fat because they eat too much and therefore if they eat less, and exercise more than they will be thin. So these drugs up and appetite suppressants, fat people are fat for many, many different reasons and appetite suppressants. What is another word for an appetite suppressant a diet and as we have seen with 100 years of data suppressing your appetite does not lead to good outcomes or weight loss finally, Number Six being temporarily smaller is worse worth risking the lives and quality of lives of fat people because spoiler these drugs are made for temporary small amounts of weight loss but that doesn't matter because if you were temporarily five pounds smaller and you died in the process at least you died five pounds lighter

Unknown Speaker 10:59

Okay, and so then the solution to this to this supposed problem of fatness is weight loss injections, manufactured by Novo Nordisk called semaglutide liraglutide Zan pick Victoza saxenda We go V. The different names in different markets and the names of the drugs and the names of the marketing the what they're marketed as different in different areas and we'll talk about that. So, we're just going to focus on calling it we go V and unexplained about the different things good right? Well, I've heard it ozempic And why you might have heard heard different things and what it all of what it is. So what is a we go Vic? So we go Vic, we go v ozempic. There we go. That's a new with a new name for it. We go Vic, so we go V so zen Peck or Ribet Reibel HSAs are diabetes drugs. The drug that is in there is called semaglutide.

Unknown Speaker 12:19

They noticed the drug manufacturer that folks lost a little bit of weight while taking this DIB BTS drug. There's also another one called Vic Tozeur. liraglutide and so what it is, is a glucagon

Unknown Speaker 12:46

like peptide one, agonist, also known as G L p one. So you're going to hear that more and more if you're not familiar with that phrase, you're going to hear that more and more because that is what these weight loss drugs are. So GLP one is a hormone that your body makes naturally and it's responsible for stimulating insulin release. And so for folks who have been taking ozempic Reibel cysts osis

Unknown Speaker 13:21

Victoza and though medication in those brand names, the medication in the brand names semaglutide. liraglutide okay.

Unknown Speaker 13:34

They are all for diabetes. Now, Novo Nordisk that drug manufacturer has rebranded the exact same drug giving it the double a double dose of the drug. And given it that name, we go v. So we go V is basically a Zen pick but a different name and double the dose and sack sender is Victoza another diabetes drug but double the dose. Okay. So, Zen pick is for a diabetics and then the same exact same drug double the dose called we go V marketed to fat people. Okay, so what it does is it is an appetite suppressant and it makes you feel fun on longer. So slow as your your digestive so as Empik and riderless, which is the diabetes drugs aren't approved for people without diabetes.

Unknown Speaker 14:50

Saxenda is the other weight loss branded is also a GLP one agonist and it's also FDA approved And it came before we go v. So saxenda The difference is it came before and the trials showed a little bit of weight loss. Same company, you know, Vinod Nordisk then came up with we go v. And the weight loss results were a little bit bigger. So that's why, you know, saxenda has been around longer, but less people are probably aware of saxenda and probably less people are probably taking it because the results from weego V, you know, the marketing machine from Novo Nordisk because it said, it's like the most astonishing results that you've ever heard. Let's see if they are astonishing results.

Unknown Speaker 15:55

So to get Wegovy. In the United States, someone needs to be have a BMI of I'm going to mention numbers here BMI numbers, so skip skip over a minute or so, if you don't want to hear that needs to have a BMI of 2727 and let me look at my other document. So many of these things. Yep. 27 and have at least one quote, weight related co morbidity, a comorbidity is the simultaneous presence of two or more diseases or medical conditions in a patient. So the examples here that they are saying are weight related is hypertension, type two diabetes. This lipid idemia which is to do with your your lipids and stuff, and sleep apnea. If you look at the Hayes health sheets, you'll see that none of these are caused by fatness type three diabetes is largely a genetic condition. Sleep apnea is to do with your facial structure and your bone structure.

Unknown Speaker 17:16

Just eyeroll or so if you're a BMI of 27 and you have one comorbidity which is you know, just basically just being a human or if you have a BMI of 30 and no issues and so, if you have a BMI of 30 which is by the way, very small, they are telling us that it's okay to de risk the lives of fat people you know, or just being in a fat body of a BMI 30 is allegedly just making being a being a disease state. So doesn't matter if you're healthy, you're fat, so get on this fucking drug. Okay, so that's a little overview of like the basics of the drug we're gonna get in a little deeper, but who are Novo Nordisk? So Novo Nordisk is a pharma company and a quote from Louise from the untrapped podcast if you don't listen to that podcast is great. You should go listen to it. So Novo Nordisk pharma company built their fortune on insulin, which was a discovery made back in the 1920s by Canadian scientists, William Banting, and his colleagues and they believe that insulin should be cheaply made to as many people as possible in the hope of curing and managing diabetes. Yes, William Banting. And so in line with this really wonderful belief, they sold the patent for insulin to the University of Toronto for just $1 Amazing Love it. In 1923, a Danish scientists, Auguste CRO, obtained the rights to manufacture insulin in Europe, and he set up the company that would later become Novo Nordisk, and literally since then, Novo has been steadily running ruining Banting the legacy by driving up the cost of insulin. And so this company has been in the news a lot in the last few years, because they are then Eli Lilly, and another, I can't remember the name. They have been in price fixing fixing scandal where the cost of this medication now is so high, they watch each other how much they're charging, and they basically keep, you know, step in step with each other, increasing the price, astronomically. And this is in the US, right? In other places. No, they're not allowed to do that because of the beautiful laws that those countries have in place that don't allow this bullshit system setup where where manufacturers drug manufacturers can charge what they want. Other countries have controls in place where they say we're willing to pay this much and this is how much it is and the customer is The the health care providers not the individual patients and so here the customers are the patients right? In the US, I'm going to say here I'm in Canada. So Novo Nordisk we'll get into the scandals later, but it's a company that's faced multiple lawsuits and penalties for misleading the public about their drugs, their side effects and misleading their investors about

Unknown Speaker 20:29

The return on on on money that they're going to get. And because of that, there was a big scandal a couple of years ago, and the US government got involved and was like, what's all this you're charging everyone too much? And they were like, oh, whoopsie and so nothing really happened. Like they didn't they didn't suddenly be like, Oh, if I get that, you know, let's make it 10 cents for for a drug whatever. They instead knew that their their capacity to make gobs of money from diabetes was limited, instead of like gobs gobs, gobs, and gobs. And gobs is just gobs gobs gobs, and so they been making a huge push push into fatness. And that is just like a cash cow, right? If you're able to treat quote unquote treat fatness, then I mean, that's it instance, billions of dollars of revenue. So how does this drug work? Okay, there we go V semaglutide, whatever you want to call it, as Empik. So this drug basically triggers the type of cell in the pancreas called the beta cells, and the beta cells job is to produce insulin. And this is great for those who have diabetes, as their B cells are not producing enough insulin. So what they notice when they were treating people with diabetes is that they happen to lose a little bit of weight. And so Novo Nordisk said, we like that losing a little bit of weight. How can we make it so that they lose lots of weight, double the dose? And so that's what they have done is they have doubled the dose of this diabetes medication and give it to those without diabetes. So Dr. Fee, Willa, you can find her Fiona Willa on the Instagrams. Quote from her my great fear is that because it tickles those these beta cells, and actually probably much a much more apt term for the double dose is Hamer's the beta cells, that they're going to be exhausted much sooner than they otherwise would. And what that does is turned people that didn't have diabetes into people with diabetes. And now need insulin, these weight loss drugs from Novo Nordisk potentially creating lifelong customers beyond when they have stopped taking the drugs, and they've extended the market. So there's people that would normally be their customers wouldn't normally be their customers, because their main customer base is people with diabetes requiring insulin. And so what Dr. Fie is saying here is that it's triggering the cells to do something that they don't need, and with the double dose, so we don't need the normal dose that diabetes patients would need, instead of even just that a double dose. And so I was like, I like trying to make this as simple as possible. And so we're gonna visualize this all right, we're gonna visualize this and so this visualization might not be perfectly accurate because I'm, I'm describing Julian, my Michael in this visualization as as, as semaglutide. So, okay, so imagine a Betta cell. I'm just gonna imagine a cell that looks like kind of like a red blood cell, it doesn't look like they can, whatever. So imagine a Betta cell whatever you imagine a cell that looks like in a beta cell is out running out in a race Okay? Out in real life running. Got the trainer's on sweatband, whatever so beta cell is running in a race and it's pretty tired, right? Something's gone on in that beater cell and it's tired. And so semaglutide Who is that betta cells really sweet trainer, someone who is like so you know, gentle and kind, comes along with a with a beta cell and says, Hey, here's a sport sports drink for you and says you can do it you can finish that race and the beta cells Thank you so much has a drink of that, that sports drink and finishes, finishes the race happy. This is a really like basic, basic visual, right? You know, it's way more complicated than that, right?

Unknown Speaker 25:13

And, you know, so So the betta cell is tired, it's not working correctly for whatever reason. And then the medication comes along, gives it what what it wants it needs, what it needs stimulates it helps it out. And then it does the thing that it wants to do, right? So if we imagine now what we go V is, and so that's the diabetes medication, right? There's an issue where we, we need to give medicine to fix the issue. And everyone's happy. In a roundabout way, obviously, that's not always what happens. But so now, let's put that trainer that was previously really sweet and nice, and you know, just positive and wonderful. Let's put that trainer on steroids. Let's turn that trainer into Jillian Michaels from The Biggest Loser. And she's mean, and the betta cell that Julian McMichaels, aka semaglutide is training is not in they're not even not even their client. There's a beta cell who's running in the race and is doing really well isn't struggling is happy. They're in the top of the pack. And Jillian McMichaels is like right, I'm going to take it upon myself to go and train that betta cell who I don't like the look of and so Jillian Michaels, runs along to the beta cell, gets out the sports drink and just throws it at the back of her head of the beta cell. And the beta cell is like what the hell and then Julie McMichaels is like drink 10 of those drinks in a row and you've been a guzzle them down and the the betta sellers like, kind of scared and been like, Oh, okay. And then Jillian Michaels that the semaglutide is saying Now kick up your legs and and do some jumping jacks while you're running and do a burpee as well. And so the beater cell finishes the race, but his tie yurts and it's been given all of those those drinks that it was like I'm I mean, I didn't even need anyone on the one of them to throw in the back of my head. And like what the hell that was really, I didn't like that the beta cell could have very comfortably finished that race. But now every race, Julian McMichaels, aka semaglutide is harassing the beta cell, the beta cell will finish the race, but eventually will turn into a genuinely tired beta cell. And then that's when we go back into that original nice trainer that's helping the tired beta cell, because that beta cell is now in the body of someone who has diabetes, because of what Julian McMichael aka semaglutide. The drug that's in we go V has done. Right. So that that's, that's like storytime for you, that is like, you know, very, very rough, very rough idea. And, you know, there's probably lots of holes in that, that very ridiculous example of what that looks like. But you can see why harassing and poking and stimulating these betta cells when there's nothing wrong with them can be problematic. So that is the mechanism of what's happening. And from that, what what happens is, there is appetite suppressants happening in the body and so your brain is like, I'm not that hungry. When you do eat, you're less. You eat, we eat less because you're less hungry. And also the sits the food sits in your digestive system for longer. And there's a lot of problems with that stuff, right? And I'm, you know, I'm telling this stuff and I don't want people to be like, Oh, sounds good. I'm going to go get it. Keep listening to the episode. Okay, so let's look at the science. All right. Now. So we've if we just imagine it, we've got Novo Nordisk at the top as the manufacturer, and then there are two big drugs. The brand name for those diet version of the drugs is saxenda. And we go V. Depending on where you live, you might say we got v. I don't know how you'd say saxenda. differently. Sacks, and I don't know. So they did randomized control trials for both of these drugs. And so we have a lot And I've kind of similar outcomes for both. And so I'm going to give you all of the similar the similar outcomes for both and then and then split it into two and say, What's the difference between success? And and what's, what's different with we go V? Okay. So both? I would say both or because there were there was a few studies in with the published papers, right, the published trials. If you want a good trial paper study about a drug, who would you want to be doing that, you know, drug that can be a drug that has historically been very, very dangerous weight loss drugs in the past have been very dangerous and have been pulled from the market, you would want scientists who have no connection to the drug manufacturers, and who are not influenced by them as much as possible. So some neutral third party, we do not have that here. The trial was planned and funded by novo. And almost every single author has a conflict of interest. They're on the payroll. And so with the SEC sender, all but two, we've been paid by we go V and on by novo, and with the weego V, every single author was on the payroll of Novo. So you can see that that is a conflict of interest there, you're being paid by this company, might you be a little bit influenced by that.

Unknown Speaker 31:56

And so, it's a successor is a daily injection, we go V is a weekly indirect injection. Both the trials the majority of the participants were white women in their mid 40s with a BMI of 38. So small for a drug to be labeled as a weight loss drug, the minimum requirements that that people who take that drug, it need to lose if 5% More than the placebo group, okay. So to be able to be allowed to be marketed as a weight loss drug versus you know, this is just a placebo is 5% 5% of the of their bodyweight. saxenda Julia scraped through that requirement she just scraped through so it's they're barely legally are allowed to call it a weight loss drug but you bet those motherfuckers are calling it a weight loss drug. They're like the best weight loss drug and weight regain happens for both drugs as soon as the drug is stopped, or they're given a placebo. We have pancreatitis markers increased with both drugs. The most common side effects are nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, constipation, stomach pain, headache, fatigue, upset stomach, dizziness, feeling bloated belching, glass, gas, stomach flu and heartburn. So people who stayed on SEC sender for another three months post the end of the trial, so some people are not at the end of the trial, but some people will put on a placebo and some people were still taking six Ender for another three months, we're beginning to put weight back on even though they were still taking the drug. No surprise, surprise. So even if you're still taking the drug, you'll be getting to put weight back on and then they stopped the trial because we didn't want to see the rest of what happens that way. Because that's what was gonna happen. They're gonna keep putting weight on. Both needs to be taken for the rest of your life. So in the US, that's $1,300 a month in Canada, that's $400 a month, or $4,726 a year. If you were in the US and you are on it for 25 years as an example that's going to be half a million dollars spent on this drug because it is a life long commitment. It is not covered by insurance because it has not been shown to work it has not been shown to improve health. So many countries have denied to cover it as they have no evidence that improves health markers. And if you are taking it for for life or even an extended time, months years, it means that you're being exposed to the harmful side effects for longer. Both medications have box warnings, you're when I say box warnings, commonly known as blackbox warnings, which is the highest level of warning from the FDA for cancer risk. So that's the most, you know, without FDA not approving it, then the sternness the highest level warning is when they have box warnings. We mentioned before that for those without diabetes, both drugs will probably speed up diabetes progression, or even manufacture diabetes. However, we're not sure of the effect Exactly. As we have no long term data. You know, where we're going to get that long term data from is the poor souls who are taking it. So Regan Chastain, here's a quote from Reagan in other studies of similar GLP one agonists, we have seen that higher amounts of weight loss are predicated by longer on set of gastro intestinal symptoms. So there is some question as to how much of the weight loss is the action of the drug on hormones and slow digestive motility and how much is about giving people flu like symptoms? Also, a bit in regards to who gets to who, who is prescribed to there is a lower BMI threshold for people who come from Asian Chinese, black, African or Caribbean family backgrounds

Unknown Speaker 36:53

because over racism and you know, why is that racist is because people who have higher weights in those communities, a lot of what causes higher weight is stress is oppression is stigma. And they are experiencing racism and so to cure the racism that they're experiencing, let's make them thinner. Good idea. Not not. Okay, so this the summary of the drugs that we're gonna go into specifically here is provided by Louise Adams from all fired up podcast who, who looked at the studies and summarized exactly what was in there. So first, we have a sack sender, aka Victoza liraglutide. You Yeah. And again, so it's liraglutide, but the higher dose. So it's injected daily. In 2014, saxenda, became the first medication of its kind to be approved for weight loss in people without diabetes. So the trial was published in 2015. In the New England Journal of Medicine, the trial was 56 weeks long.

Unknown Speaker 38:15

Red flag, number one, weight loss trials, weight loss studies need to be minimum five years long. Because what we know is that weight loss begins to fail at year two, three onwards.

Unknown Speaker 38:37

So to really know what this if this drug is going to produce weight loss, it needs to be five years 56 weeks, is four years less. So we don't have information. There was 3700 people in the study 2400 took the drug, and 1200 took the placebo. There was a 50% dropout rate. And of that 50% 1/3 dropped out because they were experiencing an manageable side effects. So already we have a huge numbers of people who are not able to tolerate the side effects. Were those people included in the data near near

Unknown Speaker 39:30

in regards to where they were they included in the data to say here are examples of how our drug has failed. No. No, because that would skew the information that would that would suggest that the drug didn't work as well wouldn't it? So 80% of people had side effects 6% had serious side effects like gallstones, gastrointestinal issues, acute kidney injury, suicidal ideation and and behaviors, the average pulse rate of participants increased by 2.5 beats per minute. And their weight loss how much huge amounts of weight loss did they get for all of this absolute shitty side effects. People lost on average 8% of their weight over the 56 weeks. And so that's is around 18 pounds in total, which is 1.2 pound per month. Staggering, groundbreaking, incredible. 1.2 pounds per month. Oh my goodness. What we see though, with any diet, or any, any drug anything, is it was more weight loss at the beginning, and then it slows down. And so you might be like, Oh, well, I know, is a friend who lost 10 pounds in the first month. Or I know someone who lost No, no way. Or I know, someone who put on weight on this drug. The placebo group lost 2.6% of their body weight around 6.5 pounds. By the way, both groups were told that they needed to exercise, they needed to reduce their calorie consumption by 500 calories. And then they had a monthly check in with a coach. So it wasn't just the drugs, right.

Unknown Speaker 41:39

It was also the fact that they were starving themselves and exercising. So the difference between 8% of their weight loss with people with the drugs and 2.6. So it caused like basically 5%, which is again, it's just just the threshold to be legally allowed to call themselves a weight loss drug 1/3 of people didn't lose the minimum requirement, which is a 5% of their body weight for the drug to be classed as a weight loss drug 10 Women who lost significant significant amount of weight were diagnosed with breast cancer. So leading to the assumption that the weight loss came from the cancer and not from the drug. And so we don't know if those 10 women, their data was taken out of the study. A lot of key information about the studies have been removed. We don't know. You know, it's kind of like, Oh, here's this and it's like, what will happen to them? Or this is this is how we this is how we are doing a study is kind of like this, go look over here to see how we're doing it. And then you look over there and it's there's no information. really poorly designed studies. Both of these are not replicable. So if what if someone wanted to go out and say I want to do an independent study, do an exact same what you have done here, that would not be able to do it with the information that that has been provided in the study because there's no there's no information on on the locations and where they are and what was done. And you know, we've got more broad information. Yep. So we got to be we got to be the one that's touted as the absolute in a box so we go be aka Zen pickers and pick as a diabetes version. We go via the weight loss version, it is injected weekly, a trial was published in the 2021 and 2021. In the New England Journal of Medicine, the trial was 68 weeks long, again, way under what we need. There were 1900 people and 1900 61 people in the study. 13 106 took the drug, and 655 took the placebo. One in five people were not able to take the injections. 95% of the participants had side effects 95% 10% had serious side effects. The same that we mentioned before, like pancreatitis, which can lead to pancreatic cancer, suicide ideation behaviors, acute kidney injury injury, so the difference between success under 80% had serious side effects. He didn't have side effects, we go v 95. Sucks Ender 6% had serious we go v 10%. So it was a lot more dangerous. Also the average pulse pulse rate increased by 3.5 beats per minute for sender is 2.5. Ideally it will be zero and The increased beats per minute. The average weight loss was Okay, get ready for this incredible weight loss, how much is it gonna be? Well, changing drug average weight loss was 1.9 pounds a month, over 68 Weeks was 33 pounds G Oh my God call the presses, which is what they did, they did that. And the reason why they called the presses because as we know, weight loss does not work. And so all of the additional weight loss methods don't work. And so any amount of weight loss is, you know, Holy fucking shit. This is amazing 33 pounds weight loss over 68 weeks now, to lose 1.99 pounds in a month, I just need to go and have a couple of big shifts, you know, am I wouldn't have all of this other stuff, you know, risk of cancer and throwing up all the time and you'll see what what happens to people in real life. So we went on so the study went on for 68 weeks, but what happened at week 60 Weight Loss had plateaued, then the study was stopped at week 68 Presumably because then the weight loss would continue going up. You know, it's like the neck tick. That's kind of like what weight loss is any type of weight loss, the starting weight go down and then slowly go up. And then the next diet or weight loss thing go down, so lowly go up. And so workbook pop up and of course there's nothing wrong with having a higher weight. And this is what weight loss studies do. Is the first thing we do the first thing it's just like really just science for for babies you know, like the first thing you look at for any type of study that says weight loss. How long was the study go wrong? It is a year 19 months stretch two years but then they have to stop it because then it's going to show them that the product doesn't work. And when I say I guarantee it's going to be a year 18 months because there is not once ever, ever ever ever been a study that shows that goes on for for five years or longer. That shows anything more than a tiny percentage of people were able to lose weight. It just doesn't exist it's just not possible. Okay, so seven people in the study receive quote rescue interventions that makes me so annoyed rescue interventions. What that means is two people got bariatric surgery and five got other weight loss drugs. Again, we don't know if their data was added or taken out from the final stats so we could have someone who's been taking we go V then had stomach amputation surgery lost lots of weight and they're like yeah just fucking put their this their stats in with the study because it makes it looks bad looks better. We don't know if they did that or if it didn't they didn't tell us I didn't so well that leads you to think it leads me to think that they probably put their you know their their outcomes in with the rest of them

Unknown Speaker 48:31

there was a follow up paper printed in April 2022 Amazing exciting what we're going to find so this was a small study that followed 327 People from the original trial free year after they stopped taking the drug two thirds of the weight lost was regained surprise fucking surprise are you shocked oh my goodness I was so shocked when I read that the steepest rate of weight regain was from the people who lost the most and so you know if people are thinking well you know it I've taken it and it's great for me because I've lost loads of weight well this information or study shows that you're going to regain that weight at a steeper rate this study quote from from Louise from all fired up she's quote

Unknown Speaker 49:38

eat this study lead even gutter press Daily Mail to run a headline is fat loss drug we go V big farmers latest calm. I mean if right wing Daily Mail would run a story like that then the answer is yeah, yeah. Yes. So they made loads of claims that People were magically super healthy and that they sprouted wings and they had lasers coming from their eyeballs. So they claim to improve cardio metabolic health, testing the HB a one C, which is a diet diabetic measure. The change was from 5.7 pre study to 5.6. Post. Okay, that's a nought point one difference in a one C, right? So that if you know anything about diabetes, you will know that 5.7 is a healthy range. So those people went from healthy range to a nought point 1% difference, healthy range, cholesterol, triglycerides and inflammation markers went from a normal range to a normal range. They're hoping people don't look into this and they'll say, it makes people way healthier. It makes them you know, their Awan see is improved cholesterol, triglycerides, and from there all improved and so you would hear that and be like, cool, that sounds awesome. But it's this little like knee length like hey awaits them out, you know? Like, literally nothing to write home about late you would not look at that and say, Okay, we should say that everything that person is healthier because they went from being healthy to being healthy or normal range, you know, trial author Rachel Batterham said no other drug has come close to producing this level of weight loss Oh, my God, which is actually not true Fen Fen had a 16% weight loss which is more than we got a V. And it's a weird brag right weird rag Fen Fen was banned as it killed people. Like, and it's not true.

Unknown Speaker 52:24

So basically, in a in a in a nutshell, this the studies show that people lose weight, about a pound let's let's be generous and say two pounds, two pounds a month, over 58 weeks around about best outcome. And then even if you keep taking the drug, you will begin to plateau and study has shown put weight on stop taking the drug. Within a year, two thirds of the weight has been regained. Also, also also in the study, many people were excluded people are not allowed to take part in the trials if they had diabetes, hypertension, a history of fibroid tumor, throw more throw more thyroid tumor risk factors pancreatitis if they were on medication, which impacted body size if they had had weight loss surgery, if they had used other weight loss drugs in the last three months if they had any history of depression or suicide attempt. So these drugs have been tested on a wide range of people, mostly white middle aged women. And so if you are not a white, middle aged woman, if you have any of these, if you have previously had weight loss surgery, had depression, had diabetes, etc, etc, etc, then this is an untested drug for you. Yeah, and as well mentioned for no information on trial design, recruitment or protocol. Every single person on the weego V trial was on novos payroll. So if you take it, you'll lose a little bit of weight. Stop taking it, you put the weight back on, even if you don't stop taking it, put the weight back on with horrific side effects, including risk of cancer. And what are those side effects look like? It's easy for me to say you know, diarrhea and sickness and lalala. We'll talk about that in the next episode, so I'm going to leave it here and then next episode we'll go into their marketing. We'll talk about the supply issues and celebrities will talk about people's personal stories. Tick tock what we do now, all of that type of stuff. So, again, If you enjoyed this information that we've I've presented so far and you appreciate the work that I do is providing you a free podcast. Go to the link in the show notes or you can find you can just google co fi feel forward slash fast fatty by me gone Biomek coffee or, or? I don't know. Subscribe Yeah, and we'll see you in the next episode while we go all over all of that other staff.

Episode 154 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 154, Fat Bias in the News. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:19

Hello, welcome to this episode so nice to see you. Thanks for being here. I appreciate it. Today I got my very first subscriber on cofee. I don't know if you remember last episode or if you listened all the way to the end. Kofi is another version of Patreon but one where they give the better to the content creators. Anyway. So for ages, I've been thinking why don't I just make a some type of thing for folks who want to support this free resource, which is the podcast 154 episodes now My goodness. So if you want to buy me a coffee, then go to the link in the show notes for kofi, you could just type Kofi ko FY into the Googles with fierce, fatty and you'll find me and you can, you know, buy me a coffee or if you want to get something aside from the awesome listening pleasure, that is the face value podcast, you can subscribe and you can subscribe for as low as five bucks a month. You can do five bucks, 10 bucks or 20 bucks and depending on what you choose, you will get minimum. The lowest is the size diversity Resource Guide, which is amazing. It's 37 pages. And it's filled with all the resources that you would need as a someone who wants to get more size diversity in their life. So people to follow podcasts or listen to books, shows. Where to shop. And so like things like where to shop, we've got 450 Plus places to shop with, like categories on on what type of clothes they carry, the how much money they cost, where they ship to etc. It's amazing books. We've got over 250 plus book recommendations. So yeah, it's a massive resource. We've also got links to different Facebook groups, science studies, everything it's so fucking good. And obviously I'm biased because I made it but five bucks for that. Yes fucking please. So go to the link in my in the show notes or just Google Kato FYI, Kofi, Kofi, Kofi, Kofi, and face fasci. And you'll find it and you can get that for as little as five bucks if you want something, extra perks, we've got extra perks for the bigger just subscriptions and you can you can do it and cancel immediately if you want. Or prefer if you didn't, if you want to just get it and cancel it those wine as well. And I'm not going to hold it against you. I know I've done that. So, yeah. Today we're talking about as I did, because I was talking to my therapist today. And we're kind of talking about the trauma that I experienced when I was on a BBC show. If you've if you don't know, I was on a show called Who are you calling fat as a two part documentary aired on BBC and October 2019. And what it was was that I lived in the house in a house with I think there was nine of us fat people. Some people liked being fat, some people didn't like being fat, and a couple of people were just in the middle. And you know, they made a poker program. It was kind of like it was pitched as kind of like a social experiment. It was viewed by millions of people. And after it does have to say trigger warning here I'm going to talk about suicidal ideation. So if that doesn't feel good for you skip skip over the next few minutes. Afterwards the trauma of be recording the show. And then the the aftermath of being a fat positive person in the UK and being on the BBC Two awkward about that was tremendously painful, so much so that I became suicidal. And I think it was only because I had had years and years of therapy up to that point. And I had, I was talking to my therapist at that point to, like, I mean, like I always do, that I was able to not die. It was really bad, it was really, really bad. And a lot of what was traumatic was the fact that there was a lack of authenticity in what was presented. And the fact that in the house in the, in the real life, like, Yeah, we had disagreements in regards to, you know, fundamental things, but no one was rude to each other. Apart, there was one creepy guy who was just a creep to everyone and no one liked. But everyone was was, was respectful, and no one had any arguments. And so they didn't have a lot of stuff to make it explosive and interesting, right. So they kind of had to create narratives. And although they were technically true in regards to like, words came out of people's mouths, they did a good job of highlighting certain certain views, or certain things to make them seem extreme. And they did it in

Unknown Speaker 6:35

I think, unethical ways. Anyway, for the rest of this episode, I'm going to be talking about

Unknown Speaker 6:44

Nafa. And a, a FA, has come out with a study that they've done on fat bias in the in the news. And this is just so timely, because this this came out a few days ago, and I have been talking about my therapist, talking to my therapist about this. And my portrayal in the program. I mean, it's been since 2019, that I've haven't been having to deal with the fallout in my brain of that experience. But specifically, what was really awful is they do something called a master interview. So they'll have lots of kind of, you know, casual interviews, where we'll do one that one big interview at the beginning. And this is kind of like getting to know you, this is more kind of here, what are your beliefs. And they will then have more kind of casual things, you're, you're just puttering around the house or whatever. And they'll be like, Hey, what's going on, and it'll just be more casual. And then towards the end of the program, they do something end of the filming lady, something called an unmasked interview, where you go down, and you sit in a kind of properly lit studio, or room or whatever it is. And you look, in this instance, you look directly into the camera, they had a mirror setup thing where there was, there was a couple of mirrors, where you were at, you're actually looking into into the eyes of the interviewer, or producer. And it was actually you're looking into the lens of the camera. And so you could see their eyes in the lens of a camera. It's kind of weird, I don't know how to explain it, but and so you weren't allowed to during this mock master interview, you weren't allowed to do the normal things that you do. In your conversations in regards to looking away, I do a lot of little to think I do a lot of looking away. And a lot of, you know, like movements you might do or, you know, getting yourself comfortable in the chair or anything like that you sat in a chair and you look at having to stare directly into the camera. And this interview goes on for hours. And they start soft with things like let's say soft, that is about your childhood and all the traumas that happened in your childhood. Basically, they're trying to get a reaction they're trying to get good content of you crying, have you shouting at them? Have you storming off or whatever. So they start soft with you know, like, tell us about your childhood and how terrible it was and and then they get into trying to provoke a reaction from you. And and you'll see this in like shows where they're confronting someone like say, if there's a you're watching a show, and you know, you've got someone who's done something bad. And then the interviewer is, is then confronting the person saying, Hey, why did you do this bad thing, and eventually the person will take off their mic and leave the room. You what you don't see is the the lead up to that. What it looks like is someone's like, Hey, say hi. Tell us about you. And they're like, Oh, my name is John Smith. And they say oh, so Did you do anything bad to people and then John Smith is like, I'm not dealing with these questions and A Pic takes off their mic and leaves. But the reality is there is so much that happens between the first and the last. And that it makes John Smith or whoever look like they're very hot, we've caught them. Haha. And now I know this I'm like, oh my god, what they're doing is really, really abusive. And you know, someone's really actually done something bad, you know, someone's murdered someone or whatever then you know a conference rate, you know, confrontation whatever. But when it's it's just, you know, soft issues then I think what they're doing is really inappropriate because in my interview and I obviously I can't speak to all of them but I wonder like how do they get people to react like that. And I guess some people have a short temper, but I don't think that that's true for everyone. And it's not true for me. Like, I'm not the type to be shouting at people. I'm not the type to be storming off. And they never caught me. They never caught me doing that, because that's not really my personality. And so they just kept asking me really intrusive, really intrusive questions, if you can think of a question that you really wouldn't want someone to ask you that you'd be like, I Narottam the answer that, you know, so things like how much money do you make? How much money is in your bank account? And, you know, what is your your worst memory what's, you know, you know, things like, you're just like, wow, really, luckily, because I've done so much therapy, there's lots of traumatic things that happened in my life that I'm able to talk to talk about without crying. And so that was probably frustrating for them that I was telling stories about, you know, all the trauma that's happened in my life, and I wasn't crying because you know, that's great TV. And then I got down to them, asking me, I can't remember the question exactly. But But basically, they wanted to get me to say that I don't want to be disabled, that being disabled is bad. And I wouldn't say that, because the question they asked, I can't remember the exact words of the question, but it was an ableist question like, what's the prep the premise being? Is disability inherently unworthy and undesirable or something like that? Then it say like that, but but that was the the crux of the question. And I was just like, I'm not answering that question. And they asked me, that hit him. This guy. He asked me so many times. And I kept saying, I don't feel comfortable asking that question. That is an ableist. Question. Probably asked me 20 times plus. And I just kept saying, Can we move on? And he'd say, okay, and he'd go, you ask something else, and then he come back to it, you put it in, no one's gonna find out. If you say that you don't want to be disabled? We will, you're not going to get in trouble with anyone. So manipulative? And I was like, no, because I'm not. I think that that is an inappropriate question. And that's what they ended up hearing is me saying, I'm not answering the question, because you're asking me if I would prefer to be non disabled or not disabled? And that's an ableist question. That's all they got out of me out of this whole kind of traumatic thing. Anyway, so, you know, only a few snippets from that master interview aired. And really, the whole premise of that interview is to, to use you to get reactions to get content to get to make a story. And what they got from me was probably not what they want, and they want to, you know, they wanted me to be badly behaved and that's just not me. But the story that they crafted is that I was this kind of decade basic, but it's ugly, and I'm and I'm not. But you know, I knew going into it, I knew that the public would be like, Oh, fuck this person because they're fat and they don't hate themselves, obviously. You know, it's awful. But so I was expecting that what I wasn't expecting was that kind of face to face into personal bullying and or, you know, just a really awful experience. And, and obviously, still, when people have these all these reactions, still difficult to, it's difficult to to know that millions of people have watched you and the vast majority of them don't like you because of your views of that fat people should be treated with respect and dignity.

Unknown Speaker 15:03

Yeah, so so so so so with that in mind, understanding that, you know, with my personal story, and it's not everyone's story, but in the UK, there have been people dying by suicide after being on television, and lives being ruined after being on television. And I always think about these people that we're, we're the people that we are able to clearly see Oh, that is the, that's the villain of this story. That person on social media, I really hate them the way that they behave and the things that they say and, and all that type of stuff. They're really bad. And that person is really nice. And, and how, how much of that? Do we have to have shades of grey thinking around? Because in reality, that villain is probably not as villainous in real life that the person who is in who is so sweet and kind is probably not the most perfect person ever. And of course, if someone's saying awful things, and they said those awful things. But yeah, so so the way that we're we're viewing any programs where people are framed in a certain light is thinking twice about how they're being portrayed. And is it absolutely accurate? And no, no. And in regards to the way that fat folks were portrayed in this show, the the fat people who hated themselves, here's an example the fat people that hated being fat, you we got shots of them eating salads, right? We got shots of doing good fatty things. The people who liked being fat, we got shots of them eating cake. me eating Pringles, when we'd all had salad, and then we'd all had cake. But they showed the the good fatties eating the salad and the bad fatties eating the cake. And that was just a, you know, a prime example of manipulating what they're showing to to to say, well look at them bad fat ease. At least they should have some dignity and try and not eat cake all the time and Pringles all the time. And instead just be good, have salad and try and beat them. Even just talking about this stuff, I feel like there's a trauma response happening in my body. I feel my heart is beating my my breath feels like it's it's shallower, and I feel tense in my body. So I'm going to move off this subject because it's, it's still very difficult for me, I'm still working out how to how to deal with it. And try and try to convince you. I'm a good person, you know, I'm not this villainous character that maybe some people saw. And I don't know, and is that helpful for me to try and do that? Working through all of this, all of this trauma is difficult, but it's important for you to, you know, for me to share my personal experience because it wasn't okay. And also, let's be cognizant of how we're consuming all types of media. But today, we want to talk about fat bias in the news. And we have a gorgeous, amazing report from Nafa, which is the National The National Association to Advance fat acceptance. It has been around for more than 5050 years. And you can find this report on their website. I'll link to it. What they've done is they've looked at the news and seen what how fatness is talked about. And you're, you're probably like, Vinny, I know how fatness is talked about. Yes, but now we have the evidence to show and if you ever want to cite any of this, and you've got that right now, so I'm just gonna read the introduction here. The report is fat bias in the news, actually, is it it's called the size of it fat bias in the news. Okay, so welcome in August of 2022. television host Bill Mayer is it may I don't know who he is really. Apart from the fact that that he did this claimed that quote, this country has gone from fan acceptance to fat celebration. We at Nafa, an organization that has been advocating to improve the lives of fat people for more than 50 years I really wish that Mayor was right. But as happens a few times a year, somebody with a national platform says terrible things about fat people generates a lot of chatter on social media and popular media gets a lot of attention and then goes back on TV to do it. Again. Mayer is one of many who wringing their hands about how the world is, quote, glorifying Oh word, when what is actually true is that fat people are neither fully accepted nor celebrated in our culture. Instead, bias against fat people is pervasive, persistent and life limiting, the pundits shake their heads. Meanwhile, fat people continue to face discrimination and injustice in nearly every aspect of life. Despite some advances of body positive body diversity in popular culture, health research and elsewhere, implicit bias against fat people has risen while other kinds of biases have decreased. The news media is contributing to this with a constant stream of fat panic, weight loss content and erasure of all other kinds of stories about fat people. Those of us who navigate the world and fat bodies know this through experience, but we also know the power of research and evidence. So we asked Pamela Mahir a nationally recognized expert in media research to review the past year of coverage of weight in the media. So we've got a few bullet points of what the findings show and then we're going to talk about the methods and some more details. So the findings show, there's going to be a big surprise surprise, like the findings show exactly what you think the findings might show. So the findings show that diet talk still dominates discussion of higher weight individuals. So when weight is discussed in news, it is dominated by diets, so fat people, and the news is always linked with diets. That fat people are almost exclusively discussed in stories about health and health care. And the vast majority of these stories make a baseline assumption that fatness is associated with or causes poor health. So what we're learning is from the news is that fatness is the assumption that fatness is associated with a causes poor health. That too few of these stories include the perspective of actual fat people, and almost none offer the perspective of fat activists and others talking about fat liberation. Yeah. So a lot of what it is, is thin people talking about the problem of fatness. What are we going to do with this this terrible problem that we have these terrible, unhealthy fat people and it's thin people who were doing the talking about it, and definitely not people who are committed to the liberation of fat folks. And finally, to many of these stories, quote, and then we've got quotes, experts, who are part of institutions funded by diet companies and drug manufacturers, giving them a vested interest in continuing fat panic, and encouraging weight loss. So we have people who are quote unquote, experts on fat people who who do not have the lived experience of fatness because they're a thin person being paid by diet companies and drug manufacturers to talk about how fatness is unhealthy and fat people need to diet. So let's go into the methods of this this research. But first, you know why the news matters? Like why is this important and, and why why this is really important is because it this is how we get our information, right? News, especially certain publications, not all publications, but certain publications have a level of respect, and a level of idea that the content of what we read is is valid and researched and is true, right? You know, like so with me doing the BBC documentary. The reason why I did a BBC documentary is because I had the idea that the BBC is this long running institution that has a responsibility to report factual

Unknown Speaker 24:54

things and has this level of Trust, right. And so why is like BBC, I think I feel like I can trust the BBC. Now, the BBC is not making its programs, it's, it's sent out to production companies. And so there was a production company that made the program for the BBC and the BBC by the program, right. And so, by extension, that company was, was getting in my mind the same kind of respect that I had, had no longer have for the BBC. And, and so I was like, it's fine, I can just be myself because they're not going to, they're not going to, you know, make me look like a clown. Whereas if another company like ITV, or Channel Five in the UK approached me, I'd really go, I know, they'd be like, really terrible, and they probably would have been even more terrible, but

Unknown Speaker 26:07

I lost my train of thought, but, but still, but still, the BBC was still still bad, right? And so and so saying that is sometimes we have this brand recognition of certain publications, where it's like, well, what this what this publication is saying is true, because it's built up this this brand reputation. And so we can let our guard down a bit and versus, say, you know, when you read something off some random person's blog, or, or some, some some news website, which is that you've not heard of, you probably know, like, Oh, is that true? I don't know. And so a lot of times, we we will treat news as like an educational device. Because we don't have in our brains, we can't, you know, every time that we listen to we read a news article, are we going to be like, Okay, I'm gonna do some due diligence and see, you know, who's been quoted, and this is true, and another getting research money from, from from other people. And in regards to fat activism, that's what the fat activists are doing, right? That's what we're doing is we're looking at that stuff. Where is he, you know, the average person who is not interested in certain causes and is not breaking down, line by line, person, by person contributed by contributor, you know, of, what is this really about? And so we just take it for granted, right? There's probably so many things I've read that I'm just like, oh, that sounds true. You know, and just, you know, and now I believe it. Because it has no great bearing on my life. But you know, now I now I've gone through life thinking that an aluminium is is bad to put in the oven or something, I don't know, I'm, I'm trying to think of something that I used to believe that was, well, that, you know, fat people are all unhealthy, you know. And then when so many other people are kind of just buying into that as a as truth, then it becomes everyone knows, everyone knows that it's bad to be fat. And it and it just becomes written in stone. And as well, when we're presented with images and stories of fat folks, in a certain way, we can not help but let those stories get into our brains and, and for us to hold stigma, you know, all those images of the headless fatties. And so when I say headless fatties, when you see new stories, you know, and they've got associated images or video with it, you've got the covert filming of fat people with their heads chopped off to give them dignity so that they are not we don't see who they don't get the shame of seeing whose face but if they saw themselves I would 100% know it because I would recognize their body. And you'll see you know of them, images of them walking images of them eating almost exclusively will be eating food that people deem as unhealthy. And it's really dehumanizing and fucked up. Fucked up. So this stuff matters, right? This stuff matters and the way that we're talking about fat people is not cool. So let's talk about the methods of this. This research so quoting to better understand how the news about weight stigma is framed. I collected and reviewed recent national route news coverage and so that i is Pamela me here. As the researcher specifically, I use the LexisNexis database to identify news stories that referenced any variation of the term weight stigma, weight discrimination weight bias, published in the US new pet newspapers or wires between December 1 2021 and November 30 2022. From carrot comparison purposes, I also quantified how many stories during the same time period reference terms like weight loss, body positivity, or fat justice. So the quantitative numerical analysis, I reviewed articles for quantitative data about when and where they were published and conducted keyword searches to assess how often different terms and phrases like oh word, or policy, etc, appeared. I also assessed whether articles were traditional news stories, or opinion pieces, the qualitative descriptive analysis, I then selected a random sample of articles to review qualitatively. Drawing on more than 10 years of experience as a media researcher with expertise in ethnographic graphic content analysis. I reviewed each article in the same in the sample to identify sources quoted the main topic of the article and how weight stigma was framed and other variables. So basically, what's happened here is that Pamela has has searched for for news stories and wires for stories featuring fatness and then has selected for a sample of those to then go in and read exactly what is being said and what is being reported. So, news about weight stigma was spared us. Okay, so the news about fatness almost exclusively was about weight loss, or losing weight. So there was 127 articles that use the phrases, weight stigma, weight bias, or weight discrimination. By contrast, almost 18,000 articles published in the same time period included at least one reference to weight loss, losing or losing weight. Well over 1000 reference body positivity. Only 24 articles use a term like fat liberation, fat just as fat divest or fat activism. None of the articles about weight stigma also mentioned fat liberation. So this is a chart here if you go and have a look at it. The first the first line, we've got 17,955 articles, when talking about fatness in the news 18,000 instances were relating to weight loss or losing weight, then we go down dramatically, right? It's like the kind of difference in on this chart. It's a difference between a huge skyscraper and then a tiny house, you know, huge difference and we've got a 1200 instances of body positivity being talked about with fatness, then underneath that tiny, tiny, tiny 127. So this is compared to 18,000 127 mentions of weight stigma, weight discrimination, and only 24 of fat liberation, fat justice or fat activism. So that's huge, right? Huge. The difference between what has been reported on on weight just a handful on the fact that that weight discrimination exists or that fat liberation exists versus the gargantuan 18,000 In regards to weight loss or losing weight. So the next big thing here is that medical professionals and researchers dominated the coverage. So medical professionals and researchers were regularly quoted in news about stigma among the researchers most commonly quoted was Rebecca pool of the UConn Rudd Center for Food Policy and health. And so Paul talks about weight stigma, right? Pull. Rebecca Paul is a thin woman and she is the The almost majority source on talking about weight stigma, which isn't a problem in itself, right? That is great that we have people talking about weight stigma, but it should be fat folks who are getting the media coverage to talk about weight stigma. And I mean, you know, it's Rebecca has done done research, right. So, you know, that's why that's that's happened. fatness was most often characterized using medical language. So even though

Unknown Speaker 35:31

the Oh words are slurs, almost Mote the most way that we have been talked about is we're using the O words so almost two thirds of articles included at least one reference to medical terms, the O words to refer to fat people. Indeed, a number of articles referred to the O word as a disease. A widely reprinted printed article, for example, ran under the headline, one in five children stricken with a word in different articles. Many stories that described Oh word is a disease with EDS written by medical professionals. Terms like fat people or plus lies appeared far less frequently in the coverage. A high profile article from the New York Times about eating disorders, for example, describe efforts of a small vanguard of professionals experimenting with ways to improve treatment for people with larger bodies. Oh, it's that one that I did a. A you don't look anorexic, the one where they talked to? That was good. The one where they talked to fat Pope folks with anorexia. Okay, so most articles frame stigma in the context of healthcare. So the majority of articles framed weight stigma in the context of access to medical care, as noticed elsewhere noted elsewhere, the overwhelming majority of stories that reference weight stigma were press releases from companies or research institutions releasing data or announcements of new weight loss products. thinking negatively ding ding. So this is something that we talk about on the podcast the fact that weight loss drug companies manufacturing companies, bariatric surgery companies are co opting the language of fat activists and talking about weight stigma. And their solution to weight stigma is to get rid of the fat people because if there's no fat people, you're not going to experience a weight stigma. Great idea not it's so infuriating. And so people can people like Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea. We do need to stop weight stigma you know people who who don't know better. We do need to stop weight stigma. Yes, it is a great way to take take your drug to lose weight. Great idea. Okay, let's do it. Because it's not that egregious fuck the fat people. They have to get smart with their marketing messages right? Only rarely did articles address the impact of weight stigma on health and emotional outcomes for adults and children. Aha. One op ed author, for example cited data illustrating that the emotional toll of weight discrimination alone may be enough to manifest negative consequences. Another widely reprinted reprinted news article focused on Oh word as a disease to be cured, but did include quotes from a doctor who lamented the way that we treat children and adults who have high weight is really shameful. When people do not meet a certain societal ideal of children, young children feel the same. Yeah, so here's another thing that we see is that articles that talk about weight stigma, still really struggle you can see that the author really struggles with well, we can't just say the fat people should just be fat. That would be irresponsible. So we shouldn't be mean to the fat people. But it needs to be could you know like this one? This right here this example saying? That it's a disease and it needs to be cured. So sometimes you think that you get you think that you're reading something that is that is that positive? And then you're like, wah, wah, wah. Oh, shit. No, you really excited you're like, Yes, this is great. And then at the bottom, you're like, what still we do don't be fat, you know? Nobody so fat guide and even like this one, okay, so this is the one that they've quoted like, it's called Yes, you can be both fat and healthy. So if I saw that I would be like, yes. But immediately goes into kind of things that not so great, you know, not so great things. You know, someone who's well meaning someone who's well meaning but Like so for example, as of 2021, weight based discrimination remains one of the only lasting legal and socially accepted forms of discrimination in the United States. Okay, so I hate when people say it's only it's one of the only lasting socially accepted forms of discrimination in the United States. Okay, so this is kind of like oh old school fan activism to say socially acceptable legal yes that's that's true in in a lot of different places not exclusively because there are other other ways that isn't you're legally allowed to discriminate against people but socially accepted forms of discrimination. It is of course socially acceptable discriminate against fat people, but it is is of course, also socially acceptable just discriminate against many other marginalized identities, without reprisal without thinking twice. And you may say, well, not for me, but it is for many people. It is for many people absolutely a okay to be transphobic a okay to be racist a okay to be excetera. Right? A okay to be misogynistic? Are we thinking about what's his what's his name? me who's, uh, who's like the most Googled man, Andrew Tate. I watched the vice documentary on him last night. I mean, his millions of followers, would they say that it's okay to discriminate against women to be violent towards women to to pursue as a woman? Yes. So is it the own is Wait, wait based discrimination, the only socially accepted form of discrimination? No, no, it's not. But I see what people I know, understand what people are saying. Anyway, moving on, we're getting into the weeds. The weeds of you know, little things that I might add is not true.

Unknown Speaker 42:05

But I you know, it's kind of like a well meaning. Misconception, which I have previously made until someone corrected me a few years ago.

Unknown Speaker 42:20

Okay, policies to address weight stigma were rarely discussed in depth, in depth, though 1/3 of stories did include at least one reference to policies few articles or stances substantively substan tively address policies designed to address weight stigma. A rare example was an op ed from the press of Atlantic City that argued a proposed bill for prohibiting prejudice on the basis of weight and all height in hiring housing and educational practices. The Editorial Board concluded the bottom line is that judging someone's natural appearance, and holding it against them in any way is unfair, and she'd stopped. That's nice. That's nice to hear that they said their natural appearance, saying that wait is just a natural appearance appearance. The limitations on this analysis is limited to English, English language, print news sources, it did not include other forms of traditional news media, such as television or radio. In addition, although I'd head as closely as possible to best practices in ethnographic content analysis, I was not able to conduct inter rater reliability testing or use multiple coders to assess content. So they have recommendations. There are many ways that the media could improve coverage of fat people to accurately reflect our lives and to reduce stigma. You know what I was just watching the tourist a tourist on on prime. It came out a year ago and I was like finally I can't wait to watch it. It has Danielle McDonald in it. Danielle MacDonald was Patty cakes in Patty cakes. She was also in dumpling alongside Jennifer Aniston, amazing Australian fat actor. She was great. Anyway, so she's in this. She's the second star in it. Excited and so I started watching it first episode or what do you think her story line is? Oh my God. Is it that she wants to lose weight? Yes, it is. She's at a weight loss meeting. Yes. And is her partner a dickhead to her. Yes, he is. He's also fat and he is mean. But then actually, you know what? That was the first episode. I feel like it gets better like there is not any continued weight loss tool. And there is a surprise in one of the episodes I'm not going to say in case you watch it, but, you know, that's just how fat people are perceived like she's like, in a shit relationship and wants to lose weight. Oh, Bowl ring, ball ball ring. Yes, I know that that's many fat people's realities. But really, can we get some more stories? Can we get some more fat Joy stories because the overwhelming representation of fat folks is a sad sack, you know? Anyway, okay, so journalists, journalists and editors can This is how we can do it better. tell more stories about fat people's rights, and how we overcome stigma, weight bias and outright discrimination at work at play. And among family and friends. Yes, can you imagine if there was a story about like a fat person who was like, encoded in their office workplace culture that no diets was allowed and then other people were like, This was amazing. My workplace is really cool now thanks to that fat hero. And then the news was like, This is amazing. We should we should treat fat people like people. Oh, and it just be a feel good story. When that be cool. Decreased reliance on medical research to drive story ideas and write fewer stories about fat people in health, wellness and disease context. Yes. explore other markers of health and interventions that increase people's wellness including systemic changes that increase access to health, healthy healthcare healthy behaviors and reduce stigma. Yes. Expand your definition of experts on fatness beyond people with a medical or public health background include academics doing research and fat studies as well as folks active in and leading the movement for fat fat rights and fat liberation. Imagine that a story about fatness where fat people talk about it. Why yield where it's not thin people? Dough you that is too much too much to handle. See now seek out fat experts for your opinion pages including those who question or have rejected weight loss culture and die goals. When coating when quoting researchers or medical professionals identify connections they have to dye industry and pharmaceutical funding that may influence their perspectives. Oh, that would be so good, wouldn't it? It would like quote, fat people need to lose weight says researcher who has been donated 100,000 by weight loss drug companies. But I wouldn't be so ragging good. Or just not even quote them adult include more fat activist and fat liberationists In your coverage of civil rights elections and other social justice issues. Yes, amazing. Language. Avoid the Oh words. When speaking of clothes, use industry term plus size, extended size or big and tall. Never use a phrase for everybody or for all sizes. Yes, that gets on my flaps. We're making clothes for all sizes we go up to we go up to x owl say oh my god, everyone can fit now. Fat activist and fat liberationists or often refer to themselves as fat and that term should be used at the subjects request, including a short explainer. Treat fat subjects with care and dignity using language and descriptions that they prefer. Imagery the recommended recommendation on imagery is include larger bodied people in your photos and illustrations of stories that don't have anything to do with body size. We exist in other contexts. Yes. include pictures of our full body when practical versus the headless fatty. Avoid weight loss before and after juxtapositions do not use filters or Photoshop to make us appear less fat. Do not use a non anonymized fat people ie no heads no faces. Many stock photo galleries only feature fat people in stereotypical portrayals or in weight loss pursuits. If your publication typically uses it utilizes stock galleries plan for the possibility that you may need to arrange for alternative photos that show fat people diversity and authentically. Yeah, you know what, like, for example, you can go to the companies that are talking about weight bias and how it's bad but also that fat people don't need to exist. They often have stock photos available. And all the stock photos are fat people at the gym fat people eating an apple fat but you know and It's like really? Do you really know anything about weight stigma if all of the photos that you have, are fat people doing these things associated with health? No, yeah, yeah. Make sure photoshoot locations are accessible for larger bodies. In conclusion, this report shows that the media has a long way to go to accurately and compassionately port report on fat people, and our efforts to improve access and opportunity. However, we do see progress. And we know that progress is possible. As we have witnessed them, the media contribute to better understanding of LGBTQ people, victims of police violence, and more. At the time of this writing, there are active campaigns for legislation to protect fat people from discrimination in three states and the city of New York. This is an important moment with many more to come. And we hope the media takes this opportunity to cover these groundbreaking campaigns and their impact. Because ultimately, the way that the media covers fat people in weight bias is not a matter of semantics, consideration or kindness. contributing to a better understanding of fat people, the challenges we face and our efforts to alleviate those challenges can be life saving, can be life saving intervention, if we can reduce stigma and increase access to healthy healthcare, housing, employment and all the markers of a full and fulfilling life. Unified, loving it. So yes, you can go get there. So you can go and quote it and whatnot. I'll go and I'll make this report into a social media post that's easily shareable. And amazing, thank you for to NASA for doing this work.

Unknown Speaker 51:57

Love it. And here's a little tip for you, you know, when you're consuming the news, if you see something that is anti fat, just don't read it. Just don't watch it. Unless you're doing some type of analysis for some reason. Just don't do it. Don't put yourself through that. Don't give them the clicks, just you know, just don't. And if you're not sure if you'll see something, which is you're like, oh, this could be positive. Here's a little trick trick tip for you. If you're reading it on your on your computer, or your phone or whatever, do a CTRL F. Find, do find, find and just put in the Oh words. Don't put My words write them out, actually write them out. See if they come up and see in what context? Is it like, quoting the O words like we don't use the O words in SRT? Because they're fucked up? Or is it like, oh, word people are greedy and honorable? Then you can blame? Yeah, well, this is not great. Or if it's like, quoting an O word expert and researcher, who, if they're calling themselves an O word, researcher, you know that they're, they're steeped in weight bias so so protect that gorgeous little brain of yours, not little brain, you've got big, juicy brain, just protect it, protect it. And yeah, look out for those, those things. Because, you know, honestly, I've been doing this for years. And still, if I'm exposed to bias, it will affect me, you know, is it's impossible for it not to and so if you're newer in your journey, then it's gonna, it's definitely gonna affect you. If you're newer in your journey. That's more evidence to prove that your body is bad, right? So be really careful about that stuff that you consume, because it's even if you even if you're like, this isn't true. You know, it could be just nits just seeping into your brain, you know, osmosis or something. Yeah. All right. Well, go go share that. That Nafa report analysis. And if you would like to contribute towards the show, buy me a coffee or subscribe and get some goodies go to cofee link in the show notes. And I'm gonna go and try and destress from thinking about I'm feeling so much shame right now. It's so much shame when thinking about that show. No, I shouldn't feel shame. or shame is such a motherfucker, right? I did a whole Brene Brown course on shame. Shame is such a big driver in my life of of trying to try to keep me small, is my brain is like I'm going to shame I'm going to shame them. And it's it's it works. It works. But I'm guessing that we all feel shame. Most of us will feel shame. And so I'm going to I'm going to proceed assume that you're gonna hold me in that feeling of the shame. And say Vinnie, you don't deserve to feel shame. You deserve to feel good and happy. And here's my message to you is you don't deserve to feel shame. And you know, sometimes shame is helpful, right? Like if you if you go around kicking kittens in the face and you know that shame is probably good to feel but, uh, you know if it's if it's a shame, that's that's, you know, unhelpful and, and undeserved and something that's you having to work through then I hope I hope you get relief from it, and I hope I get relief from it too. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks for hanging out with me today, and I'll see you on the next episode.

Episode 153 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 153, When you don't believe your spouse is attracted to you, let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:25

Hello, welcome to this episode. Hope you're fantastic. We're dealing with some sound issues. So if the sound sounds different today, let me know. Because

Unknown Speaker 0:40

Quick Time is being decade. Quick time you hear me you're being a decade I press record and isn't record anyway, so I'm having to use a different way to record the sound today. So hopefully it sounds just as good or normal or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 0:56

Yeah, so Hey, welcome to this episode. You know what, kind of slowly building up to 2023 Even though we are 2023 I was talking to some internet today. I was like, You know what, we just need to take all of January off. And like in the ideal non capitalistic world, just no working jet no working in all winter. On in the cold months, right? Because it's, it's just bad. There's no, there's no sun. It's raining. And I don't want to do anything apart from cross stitch, watching Netflix and having naps.

Unknown Speaker 1:31

But

Unknown Speaker 1:33

I'm lucky that I got such an awesome job. And I work for myself, right. So I'm very privileged. My favorite thing that happened in 2022 was purchasing a buddy, a BD. You know the thing that cleans your bum home. It's amazing. I'm so happy I got one from Toshi, I think it was like on sale for like 8090, something like that. I don't know. 120, who the fuck knows, whatever I paid, it was worth it.

Unknown Speaker 2:05

And apart from the only downside to my midi is that the water pressure pressure in my apartment is really strong. And sometimes when I turn the BD off after washing my asshole, I accidentally will

Unknown Speaker 2:23

increase the volume. There's dials, right, and then increasing the volume instead of turning it off. Increasing the volume increases the pressure. And the pressure is so hard is that that water spray goes through my colon, through my stomach, up through my esophagus through my mouth. That's how powerful that motherfucker

Unknown Speaker 2:48

and don't accidentally do that.

Unknown Speaker 2:52

Unplanned enema Whoa. But apart from that, you know, me to keep you know, put the volume down, but put the foot by the volume or sometimes I'm like, turn it on. I'm just like, go for it. And then it's like, well, that's too much. But anyway, that is one clean asshole if you've ever wondered about my asshole, since the tushy. It is just immaculate. So if you're thinking about getting it, if you've always thought about a BD, I say go for it. So that was a highlight of my 2222 was my answer.

Unknown Speaker 3:25

Anyway, so I wanted to talk about desirability. I was talking to a client.

Unknown Speaker 3:35

And anytime I talk to clients, and I'm kind of when I start to get to them, I'm like, who's in your life? Are they anti diet? Are they fat positive. And

Unknown Speaker 3:45

a lot of times when people are in relationships, a thing that they talk about is their spouse, either that their spouse is very supportive or that their spouse is

Unknown Speaker 3:56

a bit of a decade. And if the spouse is supportive, it doesn't matter. Almost I mean, it matters but

Unknown Speaker 4:05

a lot of Laurel times I hear the sentiment of I just can't believe them when they tell me that I am attractive. I just can't believe them. And it's such a common sentiment as I need to do a motherfucking podcast episode about this right?

Unknown Speaker 4:25

Because I think it's it's a universal experience. Not for everyone obviously. But for a lot of folks, fat folks, folks who are struggling with with body image stuff.

Unknown Speaker 4:39

So alerts talk about it.

Unknown Speaker 4:46

So first off, I wanted to get to know what you thought about this issue. So

Unknown Speaker 4:52

we've got some

Unknown Speaker 4:54

Thank you Instagram followers. If you're not following me on Instagram first off fatter, you're missing out on the pie.

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Hang on, I asked Instagram followers, what do you think? So?

Unknown Speaker 5:06

The question was, do you ever think that your spouse or partners are not attracted to your fat body, by the way, I'm using shorthand spouse. But what I mean is someone you might be in a long term relationship, someone that you might be in a non sexual relationship with, but still a loving partnership, someone that you a fucking one time, multiple people that you're you're fucking, or in a relationship with whatever the relationship dynamics are, um, just shorten that shortening down that to spouse or partner.

Unknown Speaker 5:43

Let's just say partner, that I think that's more. Yeah, yeah, that's a partner.

Unknown Speaker 5:50

So do you ever think that your spouse or partners are not attracted to your fat body? I'm making a podcast episode about this. And I would love to hear from you. So this is for folks who have partners who reassure them that their body is good, but you just can't seem to believe them or feel it for yourself? Have you ever experienced this? What does it feel like? What could your partner say? If anything to make you truly believe them? What other thoughts do you have? Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 6:21

this is what people said, first one, my spouse is always complimenting me and telling me how attractive they are to me. But one thing that makes it hard for me to believe is that they otherwise only make positive comments about the appearance of street size people, they will praise the accomplishments of fat people, but never their looks. Maybe that's because they don't want me to want no one to make me jealous. But my brain perceives it differently. Mm hmm. Something that I've noticed is that a lot of times people who are struggling with this are hyper aware of

Unknown Speaker 7:00

comments that their spouse has made. Often they'll be the this one flippant comment that was said, or, you know, a trend of comments. That is evidence to prove that they are lying to you. So for example, a lot of a lot of times I hear I asked my partner

Unknown Speaker 7:26

who is their type, and they describe someone who does not look like me.

Unknown Speaker 7:32

And then you know, that was that was date one or whatever. And they've been together for five years. And that was that one, that one comment of being like, Oh, I like brunettes, and you know, you're blonde or whatever it has stuck and stuck in the brain like this like sticky thing that says, Oh, hang on a minute. 17 years ago, you said that you'd like people with actually have versus my platinum hair, you know, and our brains are really good at that collecting evidence to prove and sometimes there is real evidence but a lot of times we can grab on to proof that our partners are lying to us because one time that they said someone else was attractive.

Unknown Speaker 8:13

Okay, next person. This is my entire relationship. My fiance loves my body he touches caresses and kisses every role I have, he tells me how sexy I am. And how attracted to me he is and how much he loves me and my body. I never believe him. And I never feel that way about myself.

Unknown Speaker 8:36

It's tough, isn't it? And as well when you have this this fiance touches caresses kisses, every roll I have.

Unknown Speaker 8:46

Okay, we're gonna go into more on that in in a

Unknown Speaker 8:50

little bit. We're gonna we're gonna kind of like rounding this up off of what people are saying. So let's just keep going. Next person, I used to struggle with this a lot more than I currently do. Something that helped a lot was asking my partner to compliment my body outside of times, that he was trying to initiate intimacy. I often felt like it was a lie to get what he wanted. Not a true compliment. He's also fat and I don't know why it's so easy for me to find him attractive and so hard for me to believe that he finds me attractive. I suppose the difference is, is in how society values male and female bodies. We both make an effort to complement each other more often and at random times now and his confidence is way up and I'm making progress towards being believing I'm attractive. Yeah, amazing. Look at that little communique shown and things feel a bit better for this person. And yeah, I I like to think about my experiences. And now I'm not a man. I'm non binary, but I think about attraction for me. And have I

Unknown Speaker 10:00

Ever.

Unknown Speaker 10:02

Like being with someone who I'm like, Oh, they're disgusting. Oh, they repulsive. Oh, I have to like, plug my nose while I'm with them and it will close my eyes because they're so repugnant to me.

Unknown Speaker 10:16

No, no, you know, sometimes maybe some, you know, people have smelly digs and shit like that. But, you know, overall, you know, not long term smelly digs. But overall,

Unknown Speaker 10:30

that's not been my experience. Like if I really was not attracted to someone, I would not be with them, especially in a relationship, right?

Unknown Speaker 10:42

I mean, and people might say to me, oh, you're a nice person, Vinnie. You're very, you're compassionate, unkind? Yes. And even though I'm those things, I still would not be with someone as an act of charity. You know, I'm not that kind. Because that's not kind, you know, but

Unknown Speaker 11:01

that's just not gonna happen. And you know, who I'm attracted to is very complicated, because in regards to I'm always kind of saying, Well, why why is it that I might have a preference for this or that or why is it? So it's

Unknown Speaker 11:15

basically I'm attracted to a lot of people whose what I'm saying is that, you know, I think there's a lot of people who are attractive, right, and that I want to be with.

Unknown Speaker 11:23

So, anyway,

Unknown Speaker 11:26

next, ooh, what a good post podcast topic. I 100% relate, I trust Him and believe he is telling me the truth, his truth, but I can't comprehend how he could really find me attractive. Slash be attracted to me. There is disbelief and shame wrapped up in the idea and feeling of unworthiness, or of being unbelievably unbelievably, quote, Lucky. Like, I don't deserve having someone to be attracted to my fat body. Sad face. years. That's how most of my life I felt like, wow, I'm with such a, you know, I'm so lucky to be this person who will be with me, despite my fat body versus be with me, because I'm a fucking smoke show. You know, like, Whoa, this is a real keeper. And they're all times they had really ship personalities. But I'd be like, well, you know,

Unknown Speaker 12:22

we're not gonna get anyone else who's gonna want to have sex with me. And I look back and I'm like, Excuse me? Can you see you or two people would just kill to be in bed with you, and treat you like an absolute

Unknown Speaker 12:37

diamond are really, these people are bozos that you're with, you know, the people have a bad personality. Okay, so next person, I have this idea that my partner is only attracted to one type of body fit, curvy in the right places, right in quotations. No, Sally and I nobody here and I have such a hard time believing him when he says he's attracted to me. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 13:02

Just as an aside thing.

Unknown Speaker 13:05

The ideas of who is heralded as attractive a lot of times it's pre pubescent bodies, you know exactly like this. No cellulite. Nobody here fit curvy in the right places. Right? So it's a young body. It's a it's a normal times it's a child's body. And

Unknown Speaker 13:27

that's fine.

Unknown Speaker 13:29

That is Caribbean.

Unknown Speaker 13:33

And not saying that this person's you know, their part they believe that that's what their partner is instructed to and there's a reason why is because those types of bodies are

Unknown Speaker 13:44

heralded by society as the most attractive but it's I think it's really fucking creepy.

Unknown Speaker 13:52

And we're continuing I think this comes from media telling me that there are very few ways to have a beautiful body yes by society standard, yours is very deeply rooted for me, I just don't believe that he could find me attractive even when he shows it and professors it Yes. And you know what, like, it's, it's really

Unknown Speaker 14:16

illustrates to me, it's like we've almost we're looking at two different things, right? You're looking at your body and, and you're your partner is looking at your body. And it's almost like they're seeing different things, you know.

Unknown Speaker 14:32

And it's because you're wearing this pair of glasses, this pair of nasty glasses, which is anti fat bias. deeply, deeply. Solid, have it your face, right?

Unknown Speaker 14:51

They, they're no wonder glasses. They've turned into eyeballs for you. You know, it's really impossible to take them off. Not impossible, but very difficult and to see

Unknown Speaker 15:00

The reality and the reality is this, you know, awesome human being that

Unknown Speaker 15:06

has a body that someone worships and wants to be with, but

Unknown Speaker 15:12

fatphobia has tainted the way that you view your body

Unknown Speaker 15:17

and human bodies in general.

Unknown Speaker 15:21

So we need to get that pair of glasses and, you know, rip your eyeballs out or whatever, you might not have eyeballs. But if you do, but you know, this is this isn't an allergy, and put them in the banner, get rid of that stuff. And so what it is is unlearning.

Unknown Speaker 15:39

fatphobia, right? And seeing the beauty in bodies that look just like you. The thing is, a lot of times we don't see fat bodies, sexualized and when we do often the fetishized, which is a lot of times dehumanizing for people. And so we have versions of sexuality with fat bodies, which is not sexuality that feels comfortable because it is making people feel like not hold humans when they're fetishized.

Unknown Speaker 16:18

So, but there is many examples of fat bodies

Unknown Speaker 16:25

being presented as sensual and sexy and beautiful. And all of the things that we're not used to seeing them being presented as. And we need to be seeking out these images, we need to be seeking out the stories, we need to be looking for that evidence that that tells your brain

Unknown Speaker 16:46

maybe the way that you're viewing your body is a bit influenced by a shit ton of fat hay. And it is right is you if you have a brain, you can't escape that. So

Unknown Speaker 17:00

another person says, Yes, I had a previous longtime partner who was horrible, constant body shaming, loser reaction smashed his desire because of how I looked. I have a lot of internal fatphobia and working on for myself, but these comments are so hard to let go. I now have an amazing partner who has never seen me at my smallest is with me at my largest, and has so much desire for desire for this. When I have my meltdowns, he constantly and consistently validates and says how much he enjoys me for me. And it's not even a thought in his brain. For me, I do think it's repeating these words as I do the internal work to get comfortable with my body. I still have fear and shame, but it is easier to work through with the positive reinforcement. Yes, yes. And that's the thing is, sometimes a lot of times we are met with people who have been abusive to us, this person saying

Unknown Speaker 18:10

her previous longtime partner was body shaming, and would lose erections desire desires because of how I looked.

Unknown Speaker 18:19

Wow, that's really difficult.

Unknown Speaker 18:23

And that's

Unknown Speaker 18:26

that's fucked up. I'm mad at this, this person, I'm mad at this person for, for doing that to you. And, and I've had that experience to not my first boyfriend who was

Unknown Speaker 18:38

abusive. I think I've mentioned him a couple of podcasts ago. Anyway, there's a whole thing on there's a whole two episode thing on my abusive partner too, if you want if you want all the JCG details. Anyway, I was 17 he was 30 he was a giant curry Corrib.

Unknown Speaker 18:57

And he would say to me, Why do your breasts look like that?

Unknown Speaker 19:04

Why are they he wouldn't use a word saggy, but he would compare them to other things. And why does your body look like that? Have you had a baby? Why have you got so many stretch marks I

Unknown Speaker 19:20

had stretch marks because I was in a pubescent body. And my body was growing because I was a child.

Unknown Speaker 19:29

And stretch marks are a normal

Unknown Speaker 19:32

way to have a body anyway.

Unknown Speaker 19:36

And when I heard these things, these were just a reinforcement of

Unknown Speaker 19:46

of what I already believe about my body. And so I was like, Well, you know, of course he's going to complain about my breasts not looking like a porn stars. Because he has the right to be with someone who has

Unknown Speaker 20:00

looks and acts like a porn star.

Unknown Speaker 20:03

He was abusive, deeply, deeply, deeply abusive in almost every way that you can be abusive. He also

Unknown Speaker 20:12

put me on a I say diet, but basically starved me to lose weight control what I ate everything. So

Unknown Speaker 20:23

he was a awful person, right? And so him saying,

Unknown Speaker 20:29

Why do you look like this?

Unknown Speaker 20:32

Some of the things really stuck. The the stretch mark thing, I was just like, you know, what's not got to do with anything because I don't I hadn't had a lot of,

Unknown Speaker 20:44

hey, stretch marks or bad media in my head, I had had a lot of tips need to look like this, because I'd watch those, you know, those, those those those programs where people would go to Ibiza and they'd go to, you know, on vacation to Spain or whatever, and then they'd get their tits out. And I was always like that. So that is a rite of passage passage. If you have breasts, you need to be on a TV show, where you lift your top up and show your breast or people and I was terrified that day coming because I was like, I don't want to, but I have to because that's what you do if you're on a night out.

Unknown Speaker 21:27

I remember at one point, I was like, Oh, I'm not gonna I'm just not going to do it and see how that goes. I didn't even know that I could, you know, I was like, I'm such a rebel by not showing my tips to people. So far. So, oh, boy, young Vinny. I'm so worried about it.

Unknown Speaker 21:43

Yeah, so I had that in my mind that my tests weren't the right way weren't the quote and you know, I say right way they will fucking amazing, perfect. They are like, just normal human. Ted's you know? And, and now, I could not even talk about that. That was so shameful for me. That was so shameful for me to think that I had these hidden. Not only you know,

Unknown Speaker 22:10

I could be decent enough to have good tips if I was fat, you know? Now I'm like, who doesn't have saggy tears? I mean, really? Like, I know that I know that they exist.

Unknown Speaker 22:22

I mean, I think I'd love to see some sort of stat on like, breast donors. How many what percentage of them are not this porn star tip? Um, I bet yeah. Like 90% of breast owners don't have the porn star tips.

Unknown Speaker 22:39

And there's nothing wrong with porn star tears, but I just think it's just a very normal way to have breasts that are you know, saggy and wonky and inverted nipples and

Unknown Speaker 22:52

I know has hairs on them and etc, etc, etc, right? Because that's just normal body.

Unknown Speaker 22:59

And for spouses or partners to expect you to be walking out of the Playboy house onto their lap is deep misogyny. Right. But we, we have a and I had that we have to be this is unbelievable, while also living our lives, right, all the other things that we need to do.

Unknown Speaker 23:26

Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 23:30

continuing, new person who says even though my partner is very reassuring, I sometimes feel like he and other people love me, but only tolerate that I'm in a fat body.

Unknown Speaker 23:41

He has assured me that this is not the case, and has been very gentle and caring towards my body through throughout its many changes. Still, I feel like the most experiences I've had were with people who are the despised or fetishized my fat body? So it's hard for me to believe that my partner is neither of those. Yeah, yes. And when you are with someone who is just

Unknown Speaker 24:07

a normal human, you know, and I don't want to say they're nice, but that's just how you treat humans, if you're not a decade is just to be like, Hey, I like you. And so it's it can be hard when you've got that information, even if you've not been with someone else before. But society is telling you, your body is bad. And then you've got someone saying no, I like it. And in fact, I think it's great. In fact, I want to have sex with you, you know, all this type of stuff. I mean, shit wouldn't even like any

Unknown Speaker 24:37

sounds like you're fucking lying to me, or sounds like that you are the kindest person that has ever walked this earth. And actually, this is your act of charity for the year is to fuck me. You know, at the end of the year when you're doing your taxes, you're like, yeah, actually, I did. I did do this, but this charity work. There was this girl

Unknown Speaker 25:00

And I had sex with her and actually I had a year we're in a longtime relationship. I'm fucking married her, you have I find the, the body repulsive or not attractive at all. But because I am such a nice, kind, charitable person, I'm going to date them. Their personalities. All right, I guess I'm going to date them.

Unknown Speaker 25:27

I don't think that is as realistic as maybe what our brains are telling us that we just happen to stumble upon this. This person who sees us as this charity case, that's gonna plug their nose be with us, despite our disgusting bodies. I mean, I just, I just, I'm would you do? Would you? I mean,

Unknown Speaker 25:57

hope

Unknown Speaker 26:00

I'm a nice person, you know, it's just not realistic. And because I'm a nice person, I wouldn't do that to someone. That's fucked up.

Unknown Speaker 26:09

Okay, so before counseling, I was often questioning my relationship and worried my partner was cheating. He would reassure me and often tell me specific things he loved about me. I felt very bad about myself would constantly tell him I'd lose weight. I would not eat exercise too much he would tell me to eat and that he loved me for me. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 26:30

Yes. And so that person went to counseling to, to help them them.

Unknown Speaker 26:37

Yeah, I vowed to a partner or I would lose weight and become better for them. It was only after he confessed to me that he was less attracted to me because I had put on weight.

Unknown Speaker 26:48

Have a whole episode about that? If that is your situation, by the way, that is fucked up and appropriate and should not have happened. That was a him problem. Not me problem.

Unknown Speaker 27:00

Okay, so next person? Yes, all the time. I always think that I am pretty confident and body positive. But then I am so sensitive to what my husband thinks and feels about me. Never once Has he made a comment about me needing to change. Or he doesn't like the way I look or anything negative about my weight. I have no idea why I feel this way towards him. And it's not like he's doing anything else passive aggressive, like, Hey, don't eat that or anything like that. I often ask if he likes me, or if he finds me attractive. And at times I get really upset, anxious, depressed about him. He's reassured me so many times that he thinks I'm beautiful. And I'm attractive. And he wants to be with me. But I still have those thoughts. It's so strange married for six years, these thoughts are less and less frequent. But at one point, they were really awful. I think a part of my doubts is was one is what was my spouse's first partner is I was my spouse's first partner. I have no one else to compare myself to if he had dated someone plus size, maybe I would.

Unknown Speaker 28:05

thing is though,

Unknown Speaker 28:08

I would have a big one on comparing myself to two previous partners. Oh, that I use. I used to be like, Wow, now, at least I've got this and she doesn't have that. But you know, she might have been thinner, but

Unknown Speaker 28:24

I'm just feeling so desperately sad about it.

Unknown Speaker 28:29

Even if your spouse had dated someone who was also plus sized?

Unknown Speaker 28:37

Would that do it? Like would that be like kind of problem solved? And oh, I feel great. Now, it might help. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe they will. Maybe they will plus size but they were thinner. Maybe they're plus size, but they have some other attributes that you you're, you're, you know, anxious about so for me, because I'm tall five, seven I've often dreamed about if I can only be short, I dreamed about being 5252 was the perfect size. I believed nothing wrong with being five, two, of course, but I really thought that that was a pinnacle of perfect female height. And so saw myself as this monster. And so say if my spouse had dated a fat person before, but they were five, two, I'd be like, well, it doesn't count. But they were fat because I was sure and so that means that they were more feminine. I'm a monster, you know.

Unknown Speaker 29:30

But now I look at it like oh, five, two. Yeah, that's cute. And also five, seven that statue X just asked us that's like, Goddess that's like, you know, interesting.

Unknown Speaker 29:44

And so is five two and so is 512 512 Six foot, you know, all of these things that he's just like, interesting. Like, for me, different bodies are just, you know, interesting in different ways. Same way as you might like, having an apple but you also might like having a banana

Unknown Speaker 30:00

Oh no, it doesn't mean that the banana is bad because one day you choose the apples, you know, that's what how my how I feel about these things.

Unknown Speaker 30:08

Okay, so we've got some little comments here, someone said, you know, last question, could could they do anything to help? Could you? Could your partners do anything to help? Someone said yes, initiating sex would help? Not sure. I'd be convinced by words. Yeah, hey, that's the thing. So one of my partner's one of my longtime partners, he had the maybe middle of our relationship, many year relationship, he just started just started not wanting to have sex as much. And by the end, it was always me initiating, he would always be like,

Unknown Speaker 30:43

I kind of don't have to type of thing.

Unknown Speaker 30:46

Just really made me feel like he was not into me at all. And so, yeah, if my head spouse at that time had initiated sex, and that might have been very helpful for me.

Unknown Speaker 30:59

But I was internalizing that making it about me. Really, it was about him. It was about him.

Unknown Speaker 31:09

suffering with or living with anxiety, and depression, and an only boost stepping away, could I understand that it wasn't about me. Okay, next, I gained weight during the relationship and always feel like he mourns the old me, despite the fact that he tells me otherwise. And shows me otherwise often. Yeah, that's the thing. That's the thing is we, we always if we're going to be in a long term relationship, or if we're going to have sex with people, as we get older, we're going to have to deal with this, the fact that then there was a time where we were younger, there might have been a time where we were thinner. And our social status because of that, in society's eyes, not in everyone's eyes, is diminished.

Unknown Speaker 31:57

For me, I think aging is a is an incredible privilege. And it shows that I had had all of these years of wisdom and experience, and I'm thankful for it, a lot of people don't get to age.

Unknown Speaker 32:10

And,

Unknown Speaker 32:12

and if someone else, if a spouse or partner of mine didn't think that I relate. Shame on you, you know, like, shame that you can't feel that not shame on you, but shame, you can't feel like that.

Unknown Speaker 32:24

Someone says, I don't think my partner could say anything to make me believe them. That's the thing, right? It's, it's, you know, ask yourself that question. Could your partner say anything to make you believe them? You know, could they write a sworn oath and testament that they, you know, wank over you every Thursday night? Like, would that make you believe them? Or is it something that needs to come from you?

Unknown Speaker 32:50

And sometimes it can be a mix of the both. Sometimes it can just come from them in their reinsurance. But what I see mostly is it it needs to come from us, which is so fucking annoying. Why can't we just tell someone to tell us that we are absolutely fucking gorgeous, and then it'd be fixed, right?

Unknown Speaker 33:09

Because you know, where there's all this, you know, someone saying, Hey, I think you're great. And we're just like, let me know.

Unknown Speaker 33:15

You're a lying piece of shit. I know that you're just saying that to be nice.

Unknown Speaker 33:20

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 33:23

Someone else says he will say I love your fat ass, which I love. But I wonder. What about my belly? What about my fat belly?

Unknown Speaker 33:32

Yeah, I did until I stopped dating men. For some reason. I've often attracted fitness people. It's weird.

Unknown Speaker 33:41

He lives in a smaller body and criticizes himself often yet tells me he loves me as I am. It's hard to believe he sees beauty in my fatness or that it's acceptable if he vilifies himself or his body when I am so much larger. Yes. And here's the thing, right? How much can you resonate with this statement? I think other fat people are gorgeous, just not me.

Unknown Speaker 34:11

So many people will say yep, I can see the beauty in in fat bodies, not mine. Even if I have the exact same body, and it's because it's about you, right? And so I would, you know, it's unhelpful that he criticizes his himself and then says, oh, but a body that's bigger than mine. I really like you know, no wonder your brain is like, I don't believe you. In this instance, I would probably really tell him. Hey, it's not good for me when you criticize yourself or don't talk about my boyfriend like that. You're talking shit about my boyfriend and I really like him, or whoever it is.

Unknown Speaker 34:52

Okay, next I have a hard time believing that my partner actually loves my fat body. Everyone else seems to have a problem with my fat body. He magically

Unknown Speaker 35:00

doesn't? Yes. And the thing is

Unknown Speaker 35:06

everyone else has a problem with my fat body.

Unknown Speaker 35:11

In four straight people, frustrate people 25% of men will date a fat woman.

Unknown Speaker 35:23

So it feels like everyone else has a problem with fatness. And this is straight stats, right? But actually

Unknown Speaker 35:35

25% of people don't have a problem with farmers. And 25% sucks. It should be 100%. Right? But still 25% of people

Unknown Speaker 35:49

is a lot of people, right? How many people we've got in the world right now? 8 billion. Let's just say let's just make it 4 billion.

Unknown Speaker 35:59

You know, people who were who are queer, who don't want to be with

Unknown Speaker 36:04

straight women, let's just say 4 billion. That means that theoretically, then 1 billion people want to be with you.

Unknown Speaker 36:12

1 billion. Can you handle that? 1 billion decks coming out? Yeah. I mean, I do like me some penises, but I'm not sure I can handle 1 billion, maybe a million, but not a billion. And yes, yeah, we can cut it down and say Lella people not in the right age bracket not in the same country lead it is even 100,000 Let's just go absolutely tiny, tiny numbers here. 100,000 people really want to be with you would love a night in heaven with you would love a long term relationship with you. 100,000.

Unknown Speaker 36:48

Sounds good to me. But it can feel like no.

Unknown Speaker 36:55

And then when we find someone who was like, You're fucking amazing.

Unknown Speaker 37:00

What's wrong with them? Why are they why are they saying that when no one else is agreeing with them? It just happens to be that maybe we've had experiences with people who were in the 75% bracket

Unknown Speaker 37:17

Okay, yeah, I experiences hubby says he loves my bum and curves. But really?

Unknown Speaker 37:24

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 37:26

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 37:29

There is nothing my partner can say to make me believe him. But his actions can and they do.

Unknown Speaker 37:38

Oh, someone says my insecurities are the reason I think he doesn't love my body. Not anything he says. Or does Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 37:49

I have experienced this before I was in counseling, I would often worried that my partner would cheat. Yeah, I would always be worried that my partner was going to cheat.

Unknown Speaker 37:58

So I did a poll

Unknown Speaker 38:01

of two to say what percentage of people are feeling like this? And so what percentage of people do you think that your pet spouse or partners are not attracted to your fat body? Even when you when they tell you you are they are

Unknown Speaker 38:15

65% said yes.

Unknown Speaker 38:19

24% said sometimes an 11% said no. So

Unknown Speaker 38:25

90% of people feel like that, at some some point in their life.

Unknown Speaker 38:33

So I'm going to show you from the other perspective, right. So we've heard a lot of folks saying how they feel on the on to be on the end of I don't feel like my spouse is attracted to me. But I want to read to you some

Unknown Speaker 38:47

advice columns, from people who are on the other side. The people who

Unknown Speaker 38:56

have a spouse that doesn't think that they're attractive.

Unknown Speaker 39:00

Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 39:04

this one says, My wife doesn't believe me. So I don't know how to convince her. Okay, so first marriage disaster together. 20 plus for the kid kids and never cheated, and I never cheated. I didn't find her attractive because of her narcissistic personality and the verbal and physical abuse didn't help at all. Second marriage, six plus, I think years. She's amazing. I'm in love, and I'm happy. She's perfect for me very few complaints.

Unknown Speaker 39:38

So here's the thing. My wife absolutely insists that since I'm a man, and that because of normal sexual urges, I must find other women attractive and desirable. She insists that this is just how it is. We have these discussions and she thinks that I'm lying. I insist that I'm being truthful, but she doesn't buy it.

Unknown Speaker 40:00

So I'm confused.

Unknown Speaker 40:02

So here's the thing. I literally find other women attractive. I don't watch porn. I don't OGL other women. I don't knowingly or willfully flirt. No, I do. Nor do I sneak peeks. I grew up with many older sisters who weren't always so nice to me, my first wife, she was abusive. I'm not really impressed with the sexual female. Don't know what that means. But I like the idea of the body parts. I'm not gay at all.

Unknown Speaker 40:29

I just think that other women just think of other women as fellow humans. I find my wife irresistible. She turns me on like a furnace. Every day, I'm more attracted to her. She says she's not sexy. She says she needs to lose weight, yada, yada, yada. She dresses for a shower, and I can't stop staring at her. She's perfect. She calls herself disgusting. She says, I don't know how you can look at this. And I don't know how you're with me, she totally doesn't see the erection under the covers. Just when I think about her or see her naked. I love who she is as a person. And that makes her incredibly sexy. Our relations are fantastic. We both finish our encounters having reached the pinnacle every time. We are so different in many ways, but she is my soulmate. So am I crazy? Is this normal? Or is she right? Am I supposed to have some sexual stirring from seeing other women? Because I literally find nobody else sexually attractive. Am I crazy? So here's here's kind of like a double thing of, she doesn't believe him. And also he's not having attraction to other people. And people in the chat, were saying, sounds like you've got some some trauma from your abusive relationship, and you're not so great sisters. And also sounds like you're demisexual. So demisexual is someone who has a sexual attraction to someone only when they get to know them, when they have an emotional connection. I'd say I'm pretty kind of, you know, Demi, like, I can visually see people are attractive, but I'm not attracted to them until I know, their personality. I think that's pretty common, right? But I guess this person is more kind of very, maybe on the other other end of the spectrum, right? And also the wife doesn't seem to believe him. And he's like, trying to hide his erection. And she's just like, and I tried to, you know, wash her badge in the shower. So he's, like, really attracted to her and they've been married for six years.

Unknown Speaker 42:29

Okay.

Unknown Speaker 42:31

This person says, I told her she's beautiful, but she doesn't believe me what is wrong? There's a girl that I would like to date. I told her that she's beautiful and very cute. But then she replies, No, I'm not beautiful. I'm fat. And he says, I like girls with a bit of meat every time I make a compliment about her, she doesn't accept it. Is it because she's not interested in me. So this person is like, oh, there's something wrong with me because she doesn't believe me, because clearly she's beautiful. Okay, so, next one, my girlfriend doesn't believe me when I call her beautiful. We've been dating for a year and a half now, and we're very happy in our relationship. But something I've noticed is that she never takes my compliments seriously, not in the sense of that she thinks is a joke. But she doesn't think that she's beautiful. She sends me pictures, long distance, distance relationship. And each time my heart flutters. I tell her she's gorgeous. And she's beautiful and alluring along with more provocative compliments, but she always says that she wants to do better for me. I'm flattered at that, at that. But I want her to know that I'm not asking her to change. I find her beautiful and attractive just as she is. She comes from a family that degrades or constantly calls her fat or too dark. When I look at her, I'm in awe of her beauty. only hope, wish and pray that she will come to see herself as I do, and that she will eventually see how wrong her parents were. Yeah. And people are like, You need to tell her that it's it's a pet peeve that she does that.

Unknown Speaker 44:06

My partner thinks they're ugly. My 21 male partner 24 non binary, thinks they have an ugly face. And it's just not true. They are the most beautiful and elegant person I know. And it breaks my heart that they think so little of themselves. They even want to get plastic surgery to make their face better looking. And it puts a huge financial burden on them. They're working a job they don't really like and are terrified of losing it because it mean that their surgery plan is in jeopardy. I know that they really want to have surgery, there's nothing I can do except for support them. So how can I get them to feel more beautiful? I feel like my words don't mean anything anymore, and I don't want them to feel shitty. Thanks for the help. So people are saying there's nothing you can say. Maybe ask them to go to a therapist to see if that might help them. And finally, my boyfriend says he's ugly.

Unknown Speaker 44:59

So it's not

Unknown Speaker 45:00

Just a woman thing, right? Sometimes my boyfriend tells me how he thinks he's ugly.

Unknown Speaker 45:05

Now he doesn't have the most attractive face ever. But I'm, I'm sure it wouldn't be considered ugly. But I love his face. I can spend hours just looking at it and every glance at it just fills me up with the most warm, fuzzy happy feeling ever. I could never truthfully say that I think he's ugly. I assume that he's not but I just don't know what else to say. So those posts I really wanted to show those because it kind of shows what the other person is going through when someone is your King there. Yeah, so I don't know if you know this phrase. If you don't yucking someone's yum is something we want to avoid. And it's it's saying yuck when they say I find this yummy, so we can we can you know, relate it to food. So someone's eating a cheese toastie, and someone else says, oh, that's disgusting. How can you eat cheese? toastie? That's gross. Melted cheese is horrible. Makes me sick. Oh, that's so gross. That's inappropriate, right? You'd be like, Fuck Off with you. I like this cheese toasted go away, you know, so we don't want to yuck people Xiamen, it's a phrase that extends to other things, too. You know, someone says I'm really into, I don't know, Batman, and you think Batman is the worst? Man superhero or whatever. You don't want to do you don't want to be like, you have got a terrible taste in superheroes. Batman is the worst. And you should be embarrassed that you like Batman. And it's the same with

Unknown Speaker 46:35

we're jacking people's young when when we say no, I'm not attractive. You're wrong. How could you be attracted to me? How is that possible? That's a yukking there. Yeah, man, you know what yucking the yum does? It is a barrier to building connection.

Unknown Speaker 46:57

And of course, we're not probably saying, fuck you, you're a piece of shit. Because you find me attractive, right? It's not like that. But still, it can be very frustrating for the person who's on the on the receiving end.

Unknown Speaker 47:10

Right? So we don't want a young someone's Young. Also, are we giving the message that that your partner is deceptive and untrustworthy. You're potentially telling your partner that they're lying to you, you don't trust their words.

Unknown Speaker 47:28

Maybe it's not what's happening. But a lot of people said I believe them, but they think that I'm attractive. I just don't think it. And

Unknown Speaker 47:38

that's great. That's great. If we're at the stage where we believe that they think that we're attractive.

Unknown Speaker 47:44

You just can't see it, then that's great, because then we can move on to okay, what what can we do to make this feeling feel better? So

Unknown Speaker 47:56

is your spouse

Unknown Speaker 48:00

really buying into beauty ideals? Right? Is your is your partner, the type of person who is all here? Who is like, oh, that woman over there are so attractive? And oh, I really want to have sex with this person. Oh, Lola,

Unknown Speaker 48:14

well, then we can have a conversation with her. You know, when you say that, that's really kind of unhelpful for me and my body image and self esteem? Can you maybe not?

Unknown Speaker 48:28

Can you

Unknown Speaker 48:30

say, okay, a lot of people will say, you know, what are we going to say, What's your type?

Unknown Speaker 48:35

If your partner says, Well, you, great, you probably know, you're never even going to remember that. Right? But if they say someone who is not you, or somebody who has an attribute, which is not like you yet that is going to be branded onto your brain. And then anytime you see that type of person, you're like, Oh, my God, my spouse, and my partner is really gonna, like want to be with them. And they think that my whatever is bad.

Unknown Speaker 49:01

That's something that I think that you could be talking to your your partner about going to therapy, journaling about.

Unknown Speaker 49:11

Because it feels like that's something that's really sticky for a lot of people.

Unknown Speaker 49:16

And in the future, I you know, I'm not interviewing, like,

Unknown Speaker 49:21

who's your type? Or What celebrity do you want to be with? Because I just know it's a risky thing, you know, for some sneaky little thing to come into my head later, when if I'm having a bad body image day and be like, ooh, your spouse is attracted to share and you're not share you know?

Unknown Speaker 49:43

So, so we've got three scenarios here, three main scenarios of who you're potentially with and not believing them. Okay? So three scenarios. The first scenario is that your spouse is lying to you, and is actually not attracted to you

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Is seeing you as a charity project, and is deeply unattractive to you.

Unknown Speaker 50:06

So they are really kind, but they pity you. And they commit their life to being with you and dating a horrible troll you who lives under a bridge, or they're so deeply unkind, that they are with you for your millions of dollars and other benefits, right? So the scenario one is that they're lying to you. And they're lying to you, because they are very, very kind and you're their charity project, or they're lying to you because they're very, very unkind, and they want to steal money from you.

Unknown Speaker 50:43

Chances of that being reality,

Unknown Speaker 50:47

not zero.

Unknown Speaker 50:49

Could happen.

Unknown Speaker 50:51

Especially that if you're a millionaire, chances are that's happening right now.

Unknown Speaker 50:59

Probably not very high, right? Really, really. And if you're, if you're moving, that you're out, you're your partner is with you, because they see you as a kind of charity project, or they're with you because you're a millionaire, then maybe it's really a good time to end that relationship. So if that's the first scenario, the property rivaIry unrealistic. The next scenario is the one that's going to be

Unknown Speaker 51:26

what a lot of people are saying is that they're just being truthful. They're attracted to you, they love you, they care for you, they think that you're really damn sexy. They want you to know it, and they're frustrated, or upset, or upset or hopeful that you can feel it yourself. They're like, they might not be, you know, sad about that. You don't feel it, but they do. They like you. If that's the case, then we know that the problem is the beliefs that we are holding. And it's not your fault that you have those beliefs, it would be fucking weird if you didn't, because we live in a society that tells us we need to be young, thin, white, non disabled.

Unknown Speaker 52:13

You know, there's unrealistic version of a human being, right. So that that goes to show that we've got work here to unlearn anti fat bias.

Unknown Speaker 52:24

Okay, and a great place to start is your social media. Who are you following? What images are going into your brain? What shows you're watching? Etc, etc. How are you training your brain to show your brain? That fatness is fucking amazing? How are you training your brain to show it that thinness and whiteness and youngness and non disabled cisgender straight, all that type of stuff is the default.

Unknown Speaker 52:53

Okay, we need to be training our brains to show our brains who humans are what humans look like.

Unknown Speaker 53:02

Okay, so the first scenario is you're you're dating someone who's lying. The second site scenario is you're dating someone who's attracted to you.

Unknown Speaker 53:10

And that's just it, you're gonna have to just deal with it. Okay, someone thinks that you're a smoke show. Okay, so you just have to do the work on your side, right? The third scenario, which is probably

Unknown Speaker 53:24

the more nuanced where more people might fall

Unknown Speaker 53:29

is that you're dating an imperfect human being who is affected by beauty ideals, who is affected by toxic toxic masculinity by misogyny by, by fat phobia by anti trans rhetoric by all of those things, right?

Unknown Speaker 53:46

who maybe has said something to you in the past? Or maybe watches on on a porn and you know, they do and porn, which is very kind of thin and white, maybe they have depression, maybe they are asexual or on the spectrum.

Unknown Speaker 54:03

Maybe they're demisexual, maybe they're tired, maybe they're not bothered. Maybe they need to go to therapy. So maybe they're a complex human being. And there's a range here, right? So when I say maybe they're not bothered, that might be you know, if they're not bothered by showing you that they're attracted to you and wanting to be in a relationship with you, and all that type of stuff. That might be a clue that this might not be the best relationship, you're not going to have your needs met.

Unknown Speaker 54:34

Or, you know, on the other side of things, is something to do with them. Say for example, they're discovering that they might be on the asexual spectrum, or ACE, and then that's a case of okay, well, we've got these discoveries. It's not about me, it's about them. So how am I need is going to be met? You know, am I is does that work for me? Or, you know, do I need to open the relationship up or, or have a different relationship or do I need to get a buddy or

Unknown Speaker 55:00

Whatever you know, and and then I think everywhere on this spectrum is going to be the affected by beauty ideals. And so what is your spouse doing to unlearn that stuff? What is your partner doing to not contribute towards bigotry? Are they committed to to bigotry? So the types of who are committed to bigotry, other types who are like, you need to lose weight. Those are those are the people who are committed to bigotry, because that should not happen. They need to be examining their anti fat bias, their health ism, their ableism, all that type of stuff, right?

Unknown Speaker 55:37

And so if that happens, I say, I'm not attracted to you or whatever, then that's a them problem. It's not a you problem. They need to be doing the work.

Unknown Speaker 55:46

Do you want to be with someone who is not willing to do the work?

Unknown Speaker 55:50

Maybe you are, maybe you're not? If you are, how is that contributing towards the way that you're feeling?

Unknown Speaker 55:58

How is it contributing, when you're in a world that tells you that fatness is abhorrent and then go home to the place it's meant to be a safe space, a soft place to land, and you have the same message?

Unknown Speaker 56:10

Hopefully, that's not the case. For many people. Hopefully, we're more to the you know, your spouse is attracted to you, but you just don't believe them.

Unknown Speaker 56:20

Because if they're not attracted to you,

Unknown Speaker 56:23

I'll think they need to be going to the law.

Unknown Speaker 56:28

Okay, so here's to wrap up everything that we're talking about some questions to ask yourself, I'm going to make this the questions into a into a post so that you have it

Unknown Speaker 56:38

at hand. So questions to ask yourself around this. Are you yukking, they're young? Are you shaming them for being attracted to you, and trying to convince them that they are wrong?

Unknown Speaker 56:52

If that's the case,

Unknown Speaker 56:54

is kind of breaking down building relationship, it's creating barriers to built to building a deeper connection and relationship?

Unknown Speaker 57:03

Is it actually likely that your spouse is disgusted by you? And you are just as your and they are with you just as an act of charity?

Unknown Speaker 57:14

Is there something that they are doing that makes you feel the way that you're feeling? Can you address this? Can you ask them to do something different? Is there anything they can do or say to help you with this feeling?

Unknown Speaker 57:28

Does self acceptance have to come from within?

Unknown Speaker 57:34

If so, how can you work on this? And working on this could look like going to therapy it could look like listening to podcasts, it could be looked like doing first fatty Academy my program things like that.

Unknown Speaker 57:49

Does that self acceptance have to come from within? I think that's the big biggest thing right? is probably going to have to come from within annoying.

Unknown Speaker 58:00

Is your partner so deep in anti fat hate that they need to work on their own issues? If so, do you want to be with someone who is committed to your oppression?

Unknown Speaker 58:13

Does your body have a built in bigot to be get detected due to your size?

Unknown Speaker 58:20

Is that a helpful thing at all for you?

Unknown Speaker 58:24

So when I talk about that I'm talking about the fact that I'm lucky that I won't end up accidentally with someone who hates fat people, because they'll see my body and they'll say, Oh no, I hate fat people. Let's go and find me a thin person.

Unknown Speaker 58:39

Which is wonderful. Love it. But because I'm white, I might accidentally end up with a racist. I might accidentally end up with someone who is a loyalist or you know, etc, right? But I'm probably not going to end up with someone who is a trans for you because I'm non binary.

Unknown Speaker 58:56

With shades, right, because we're all racists. We're all you know, we're all bigots, right.

Unknown Speaker 59:02

But if I had a thin body, and then I became fat in the relationship, that's difficult because then you could discover that you were the fat foe when you didn't realize before.

Unknown Speaker 59:15

So, if that's the case,

Unknown Speaker 59:19

do you want to deal with that with that BS? If they're putting it on you?

Unknown Speaker 59:25

Do you want to help them through unlearning? That anti fat bias

Unknown Speaker 59:30

and by the way, anti fat bias is not a sexual preference that we should should accept.

Unknown Speaker 59:37

Are you accepting it?

Unknown Speaker 59:39

Right? You cannot possibly say I will never be attracted to any fat person on the planet ever. That's just ridiculous, right? It's ridiculous. There's not true. Really ever there's no possibility there's any fat person that's attractive. No. So you know

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

A fat phobia is not a secret. It's not a it's not a sexual preference

Unknown Speaker 1:00:10

so

Unknown Speaker 1:00:13

in conclusion,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:17

I think that if we're not already doing this,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:22

we need to cut out the

Unknown Speaker 1:00:25

I don't believe you you're, you know, how can you find me attractive or I'm so ugly, or I'm so fat or my belly. So yuck or whatever. I think we need to that's, I think I feel like that's an automatic, you know, words that come out of our mouth all the time. But I think we need to try and stop saying those things. And start just saying, Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:52

And

Unknown Speaker 1:00:55

learn all that anti fat bias that we have lurking in our brains.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:00

And just as an example of

Unknown Speaker 1:01:05

what that looks like, so So now I've done many years of this work right. Before I was a raging fat phobe, right I would date really inappropriate people who were who were abusive, who,

Unknown Speaker 1:01:19

who were not kind to me, and I would basically try and be a porn star for them.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:27

I would fake orgasms like all the time.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:32

I would be going to like six classes to learn how to be the best blow job giver or handjob giver ever to make up for my fatness, right? I would not expect them to be showering me with compliments.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:51

And would be sad when it didn't happen.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:54

One of my exes, he'd always just say, you look good. And I was like, huh, thanks.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:03

Oh, no, no, no, he wouldn't say Good. He'd say You look fine. You look fine. Like I'd come down from you know, for a night out, but like, you know, here's my you know, me and my my nice nice dress and heels and makeup and hair and need say You look fine. And, and I would always be like, that's tough. Anyway. So that would be my life. I'd be just constantly trying to make up for fatness. If a partner did say they were attracted to me, I'd always be like, they're lying. They're secretly attracted to other people. They once told me that that they were attracted to this type of person. That's not me. So clearly, they're they're settling for me. For whatever reason. Now, you know what, just before this podcast, I put on some put on some lippy some, some mascara, because I like to, not because I don't feel good. It's just because that makes me feel good.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:00

And

Unknown Speaker 1:03:03

I looked in the mirror, and I was like, Oh, you look so good. Oh, my God. And I sat down and I was like, oh, yeah, that's really nice. Like, and that happens quite often. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:15

isn't going to happen overnight for a lot of people that they're gonna often say to themselves, Oh, I look really good in the mirror. And think about, oh, if someone had their hands on this bum right now, they'd be like, Oh, if someone got to hold these tips, they'd be like, Oh my god, I'm in heaven. You know, that's what I'm thinking is that

Unknown Speaker 1:03:35

the people who get to be with me, I'm really fucking lucky. Not because I've got a great personality.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:42

But because I've got a great personality, and a human body, which is visually interesting, and sexy, and soft, and wonderful and

Unknown Speaker 1:03:57

worthy.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:59

You know?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:01

And I too, am deliriously happy to be with them in bed with them, getting to touch their body, their imperfect body, like my imperfect body, and exploring it and discovering it. And, and I'm not thinking Ooh, look at this, whatever I'm thinking, What luck I have, that someone trusts me enough to be in this vulnerable state with me.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:30

And we get to explore each other.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:34

And I'm going to trust them that they want to be here. And I'm going to trust that if they don't want to be here, they're gonna say it and not be with me versus lie to me. I'm just gonna have to accept their word, which can be tough, but now you know, now I'm just like, well, if you know some people aren't attracted to me, they're wrong. But

Unknown Speaker 1:04:58

you know, I just think you know, it's it's fun.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

It didn't mean anything about me it just means that there's many colors in the rainbow. And, you know, some people I just think, you know, the you know, not even Sam a lot of people would just be like, fuck yeah, I get to go go and be with Vinnie, I get to go on a date with them, I get to have sex with them. Shit, that's, that's so cool. And someone is going to be like that with you and not even someone, many people and more more likely than not the person that you're with. And that's really cool. That's really really awesome and exciting. I'm jealous because I don't have a partner I do. And I really want a partner.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:35

Yeah, so. So if if you think they are lying, then you know, that sounds like an issue that you maybe we need to end a relationship.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:45

If they are committed to being,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:49

you know, anti anti fat, hate stuff. And then that doesn't sound great. But if they're telling you that they think that you're attractive, we just got to believe them. If you think that they're being truthful, and then work our on our own ship, and also expect that it's going to take time, and remember that you're just a fucking incredible human. You're alive and amazing. And

Unknown Speaker 1:06:17

I was talking to someone on the phone to a client on the phone. And they said, they have this t shirt because

Unknown Speaker 1:06:26

and I really want to get it. It says, I'm not just a mind. I'm a piece of meat. I was like shit that I need to get that. I'm not just a mind. I'm a piece of meat. Yeah. So what can we do to help you feel better about your body and other things that other things I'd forgot to mention, you can do things like boudoir photography, or Vivian McMaster has a course called Be your own beloved. It's like a course where you take photos of yourself in and you start small, like it's take photos of your toes, take photos of your shadow, take photos of your ear, you know, slowly building up and then you're going to be able to hopefully see the visually interesting aspects of your body and, and see your body in ways that maybe you hadn't seen it before. And these are, these are photos that are just for you, right, you don't need to post them anywhere, but you can if you want to. So that's very McMasters Be your own and beloved.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:25

There's also my program Facebook Academy also can go to therapy, you can also do things for free like listening to podcasts, I mean, shit what episode we are now 153 I've, if you if you binged all of my podcasts, how long would that take like a couple of weeks worth of continuous listening? I think that you'll probably feel a lot better. Because you're surrounding yourself with that with that positivity, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:07:54

And be very cognizant of how much you're surrounding yourself with normative bodies. And really, I cannot tell you how much this pub probably affects you. without you knowing it affects me. I've been watching that fog in

Unknown Speaker 1:08:12

the circle on Netflix. And it's not even about bikini babes or anything. But there's there's a lot of normative bodies. And that is triggering for me, someone who's been doing this work for years and that's something I notice I'm like okay, well I need to take a break from this okay, brain you're telling me and that's just what it is to live as a fat person in this society that tells us we need to be a certain way. Alright.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:37

Thank you for hanging

Unknown Speaker 1:08:40

out with me. Hey, by the way, guess what I just I've not really I've not really shared this anywhere, but I just set up a ko fi org No, Kofi, Kofi. Kofi is like Patreon but Patreon takes tons of fees from the people who are on Patreon. So Kofi is a version of Patreon which is better for the Creator. And so if you want to say thank you for all of this free content, you can buy me a coffee on cofee.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:09

So you can chuck me five bucks to say thank you or you can subscribe. And if you subscribe for as little as five bucks a month you can get oh this thing so if I can get the size diversity resource guide it's oh my god, you need to get this okay, you need to get this if you listen to me. You need to get totally forgot I forgot about this. I was like, Oh yeah, science diversity resource guide. So if you go to my co fi, go to my go to the LinkedIn note the notes, the show notes, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

Unknown Speaker 1:09:44

And I will have a link for the kofi. You can get the science diversity Resource Guide which has its 37 pages and it has people to follow books to read TEDx talks, Facebook groups, private communities for fat people.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

Science places to shop.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:06

Podcasts. It is fucking amazing. Amazing. It is really good. Okay, listen, I'm telling you at five bucks go get it. Okay, just go get go. Listen If you struggle I'm telling you if you're like it all right, it's really good. I'm not tooting my own horn not what I don't deserve to toot my own horn because that's really good thing for a really really cheap price

Unknown Speaker 1:10:32

but yet anyway, my my I'm using my voice that's why I'm gonna go walk the Dougie thanks for hanging out with me today. Thank you for being a part of the first year community. Remember that you are worthy you always were and you always will be our car. Stay first fatty. So you know while alligator.

Episode 152 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Taurus in the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 152 Diet Culture and Religion. I'm your host Vinny Welsby. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:23

Welcome to this episode and to 2023 Fatties. It's Vinny coming from Vancouver which is the stolen traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples, Squamish, slaver tooth and Musqueam. Nation. So pleased that you're here with me today. I'm recording this on the first week back from our holidays once they are mine, I don't know maybe did you have a holiday? Hope you had a holiday? If you wanted a holiday? You don't have to have a holiday? You do? Do you? The holiday if you want to? Don't if you don't? Maybe you can't. I've got some of the January. Bill, I don't want to go back to reality, blues, sad brain stuff, as does probably millions, billions of people, or a billion people on the planet, let's say 7 billion billion people get that feeling? Yeah. And so I just saw, you know, hey, if you are feeling like that, I just want to say to you, and to me to try and give myself a pep talk that this is temporary, there will be happiness ahead. Things will change. Nothing's going to stay the same forever. And if I look back on all of the years before that I've had, it's January, all of the merriment of Christmas is over. And, and I'm sick of the sun going down at four o'clock and having like 12 seconds of daylight. And a daylight is is gray daylight, and there's only one month in it, depending where you live in the world that January, we just need to get through January, and then the sun is going to be out for longer. Before you know it. It's going to be the summer, you're going to have experiences and fun times and you're going to laugh and smile. And you'll even forget that January, you didn't feel good. That's my that's my hope and prediction. And yeah, I know, looking back on my times. I had it a lot worse previously, the worst one I think I remember is when I worked at a call center. Oh, it was horrible. This call center and I was terrified. I was so shy. And so it made it really difficult for me to do my job because every time the phone rang, I was like, Oh God, I have to talk to a human. I really didn't like doing it. And it was really strict. Like, you know, you had to you were monitored by the second of what you were doing. It was awful. So anyway, my life's not like that. Now I have more resources to hand I'm older, and wiser. And hopefully you're older and wiser and you have resources. Or you can I had no go and watch some nice happy videos on the internet, or take some drugs or whatever. So that's my, my New Year's wish for you. And I felt thought to do you know what? I don't do New Year's resolutions. But I thought you know what, this year, I am going to refuse to try and unconsciously not breathe hard. When someone's passing me when I'm climbing up a hill. You do that? I know people do this. When you're walking up a hill and someone's walking past you and then you're just like, hold your breath. Or just breathe gently. And then they pass and you're like thank God for that. Listen, every motherfucker is out of breath climbing up a hill. Okay, that's just human bodies for you. Unless you're like some sort of hardcore heel athlete. So I think it's pretty normal to be a human being and a bereave. And so I think about this and I think it's kind of funny, and also sad, but I think sometimes I recognize that I'm I'm doing it and like not realizing that I'm doing it so I'm gonna breathe and be a sweaty bitch and all of that stuff for 2020 to 2022 is for breathing and sweating. Okay, and I got a card in the post which arrived from Stay fat.co Stay fat design CO on the Instagram if you want to go to the website stay fat.co and the card says I hope I'm fat forever so I thought that was pretty cool so if you want to fat forever card go to stay fat.co on Instagram stay fat design co alright so let's get into today's show I've been thinking about this one for a while I found the website diet culture timeline.com And some anonymous person I messaged them on Instagram about a month ago maybe and they didn't message me back but I think maybe they're not as active on on the ground as much anyway, they I was like I want to know who this is so I can credit them and and tell them that I I'm really inspired by their work and and so it's an anonymous on an anonymous anonymous person that has created this diet culture timeline.com And I get it being anonymous. I mean shit if you're a fat person talking about fatness and how critiquing fatness on the internet, I mean, remaining anonymous is really a good thing for a lot of people's mental health. Anyway, and so I was I was you know, it's really detailed you can go through, it will take you hours to go through all of the content going through going back to let's see where they go back to like cavemen, joking? Like, do they isn't do these G's make my bum look big 300 Okay, 300 BCE, up to the 2000s. So there's a lot of a lot of stuff in there and it kind of intersects with you know, other things that are happening in the in in those time periods too. But there's a there's an infographic here which talks about the history of diet, culture and religion. And I've done an episode on the intersection of cults M L. FM's and did I was it was it religion I said, or religious cults or religious zealots or something anyway. But I wanted to do a kind of a deeper dive into that juicy history. And so with this infographic, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go read out little parts. And then I've I've, with the information I've got from diet culture timeline, I've then gone on and done extra research around specific things, as you'll see. So the history of diet, culture and religion, so we're going to start in 800 800 100 BCE, so 1200 ish years ago. So Catholicism in 800 became the reigning religion. And the diet culture impact of that was that fasting and avoiding certain foods were common on religious holidays, as a form of penance. So we see this a lot in different religions and fasting as a form of, of penance. And I mean, it's, it's theoretically a good form of penance because fasting still works, right? And so this is the beginning of that, that intersection of food and religion is starting with 800 to 1600, Catholicism, and fasting for pennants. In 1453, Western Rome fell to the Ottoman Empire, which practiced Islam. And the impact was that the Roman church educated its masses about Islam, stating Mohammed was indulgent of his senses, lustful and ultimately, the Antichrist. Of course I did. By the way, by the way, just to kind of like a pope personal biasing here. I am not religious, I am agnostic, atheist, agnostic, agnostic. I was brought up Catholic Irish Catholic and studied theology for a levels, always of my education. They're one of the one of the three subjects. It wasn't really actually because it led me to be becoming

Unknown Speaker 10:16

a non believer, which was very helpful for me because I internalized a shit ton of shame. And so that was the beginning of me beginning to let go of shame around religion. And that so there's my biases in regards to my experiences with Catholicism were shit. And I think a lot of people's experiences with Catholicism and various religions if they were brought up with them is shit. But I think that if someone does believe in God, or is religious, I don't personally understand it. Like, you know, I don't feel the same way as they do. But also I feel like you do you like if it's, if it's feels good to you, and it feels nice to think that there's God and there's Jesus or whatever, whatever religion someone practices, that's fine. I think when religion starts telling people, marginalizing people and telling people that they can't do this, and if they do, that they're a bad person. Unless it seems like unlike murder people, then that's when religion starts to become really problematic. And a lot of people use religion as a way to hide their bigotry. And sound moral about it, right? So if you're religious, and you're just a cool person, and God is feels good for you. Cool, do you know my cup of tea, but whatever. But it today we're talking about religion in the sense of religion that has caused harm, right? And it also it's not black and white, right? So Catholicism, bringing the idea of, you know, fasting doesn't mean that all of Catholicism is awful. I mean, but, you know, or, or we're gonna be talking about Protestantism, and doesn't mean that all Protestants or, you know, believe in diet, culture, or even believe that the history of Protestantism is good. Some Protestants can say this was fucked up, and we don't want to do this anymore. And that's all cool. Okay. All right. So, that disclaimer out the way that I should have said at the beginning. So Catholics said that Islam and Muhammad are bad because Muhammad is indulgent of his senses lustful and ultimately, the Antichrist 1500 Protestant Reformation so Protestant is an umbrella term for Baptists, Calvinists, Methodists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Congregationalists, and Adventists. And so the Protestant Reformation we're going to go into this deeper because this is where all the juicy shit is happening. But a quick overview is the impact here was that food became synonymous with morality. Finding pleasure in food corrupted the soul and dimmed intellectual intellect eating disorder behaviors were praised wealthy white men were developing and spreading these ideas because they could afford printing costs. Those who couldn't or wouldn't engage in these ideas, ideals were deemed in theory. So Protestants and the Protestant Reformation what is it? What the heck are we talking about? So, this is from national group geographic. The Protestant Reformation was a religious reform movement that swept through Europe in the 1500s. It resulted in the creation of a branch of Christianity, called Protestant, Protestant ism, a name used collectively to refer to the many religious groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church due to differences in doctory. The Protestant Reformation began in Wittenberg, Germany on October the 31st. When Martin Luther no relation to Martin Luther King King, a teacher and a monk published a document he called disputation on the power of indulgences, or 95 thesis. The document was a series of 95 eight ideas about Christianity that he invited people to debate with him. These were controversial because they directly contradicted the Catholic Church's teachings. I tell you what, Martin Luther from 1517 Sounds like a fucking snooze fest. So basically A Catholicism was a thing and people could kind of make penance they could quote, sin, make penance and still get into heaven. Whereas Martin Luther was like berjon? I think so. You need to be living in a life away from indulgences. And indulgences. Didn't just mean food. It meant everything. Any type of fun to get into heaven and that you couldn't buy your way into heaven if you didn't behave in a pure way. Yeah, so he he wasn't fun at a party. Oh, Marty. Oh, Marty. He'd come in. He'd like look at you in a fucking canopy. Go into hell. Oh, have a sip of wine. Jesus, you are basically the devil. You know? So people would be like, Marty, can you fuck off? And so then he was like, Okay, right. Well, I'm gonna write this stuff down. And apparently he nailed it to the door of a church or cathedral or whatever. It was like, Hey, everyone, debate me about this stuff. And the church was pierced. The Catholic Church was like this this guy. This is this is not Catholicism, and we don't like you. You cannot come to our next canopy and wine party. Okay, Marty. So continuing Luthor statements challenged the Catholic Church's role as an as intermediary between people and God. Specifically, when it came to the indulgent system, which in part in our people to purchase a certificate or pardon for the punishment of their sins. Luther argued against the practice of buying or earning forgiveness, believing instead that salvation is a gift from God, to those who have faith. Protestant reform in England began with Henry the eighth in 1534. Because the Pope would not grant him a marriage annulment. So yeah, no good old Henry the Eighth piece of shit wants to get his dick wet with all the different wives. Hey, here's a little tip for you if you're ever in a pub quiz, and the the, the question comes up of who, who his wives were and what their fate was. Here's a little rhyme to get to remember so he had six wives. The rhyme is divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived. Okay. So you can you can remember that divorced, beheaded, died, divorced, beheaded, survived.

Unknown Speaker 17:51

So, because he couldn't get a divorce you want it to marry is his next wife after his first one. I think it was Amberlynn that you wanted to marry. He was like, Oh, I'm gonna just gonna make a whole new Church, the Church of England. So subsequently, King Henry rejected the Pope's authority, instead creating an assuming authority of the Church of England, a sort of hybrid church that combined some Catholic doctrine and some Protestant ideals. Over the next 20 years, there was a religious turbulence in England as Queen Mary reinstated Catholicism in England while persecuting an excellent exiling Protestants, only to have Queen Elizabeth the first and her Parliament attempt to lead the country back towards Protestantism during her reign. The monarchy now in the UK, I think it's Church of England. Yes, yes, it is. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because then when the Queen died, then Charles was then head of the Church of England. Oh, can you imagine? All of that is wrong? Fuck the rules. Some English businesses did not believe Queen Elizabeth Elizabeth efforts to restore England to Protestant Protestant ism went far enough those these citizens went fell into two groups both labeled Puritans. By their opponents. The first group known by separatists believed the Church of England was so corrupt that they their only choice was to leave England.

Unknown Speaker 19:27

Around 1607 some separatists tried to start a new life, they went to Holland, but their kids were assimilating to Dutch culture too much and they were like these fucking kids they're like going around with their Walkmans or I don't know what they had like tap tablets. You know, the old time tablets, not the iPad tablets. They were coming to Dutch they're walking around with clogs on and then like flowers and windmills and shit. We better get back to England because they're getting influenced too much. So they went back to England, and then they were like, oh, fuck this noise. Okay. He's here wearing clogs too. And so by 1620, the members of the English separatist church, where we're like, we got to get out of here we need to start a new life a new church, and they set sail aboard the Mayflower for New England and eventually landed near Plymouth, Massachusetts. And would be would be in time become known as the pilgrims. So Germany, UK, Henry the Eighth for Mike to get his deck wet. So I was like, Okay, let's make it make it a thing here. And then those Brits went over to Turtle Island, now known as the United States by many and took their beliefs and their beliefs became force known as the Protestant Ethic. So the Protestant Ethic in sociological theory is the value attached to hard work, Thrift, and efficiency in one's worldly calling, which especially in the Calvinists view, Calvinist is a branch off were deemed signs of an individual's election or eternal salvation and underneath all of that was you know, hard work Thrift, thrift and efficiency is also not indulging in things like food and sex, right. So this is an excellent piece by Leslie J. Owen, Dr. Lesley J. Owen, who wrote this before she was a doctor. But you can go read the whole thing it's really interesting consuming bodies, fatness sexuality and the Protestant Ethic. So I want to quote from here carnality and religion, fatness meats, sexuality and food. It may seem strange to combine sexuality, food and religion in this discussion of fatness. But it's important to remember that the mind slash body dichotomy characterized in western values as deep roots in Judeo Christianity among other philosophies. This has frequently manifested in separating the body into various components, spirituality, and men mentality which are connected with the Divine and the afterlife, and not incidentally with masculinity and rationality. And carnality and emotionality, which folks folk focus folks on this world, and are therefore corrupting and chaotic. As a result, anything connected to bodily or worldly pleasures, sex eating laziness, greed, becomes at the very least, and because of the lasting influences of Judeo Christianity in Western culture, popular popular, popularly suspect cording to Judeo Christian doctrines, including the infamous seven deadly sins. Gluttony is itself a sin against the body a blatant elevation of the body's appetites above spirituality and godliness. In fact, all this suggests that the ambivalence between the physical necessity and the carnal appetite for food manifests in stories of Eve and her Oh, so tempting fruit in the garden of Eden. Well, while as I mentioned, it is not historically or evangelically uncommon to connect eating and sexuality. The religious strictures against gluttony have connotations of immorality or their own. The religious connections between the excess of excess of hungers are apparent, but fatness is also reviled and its own merits by forms of Judaism and Christianity, for brilliant discussing discussion of how Jewish folks have been historically linked to fatness and diabetes, see Gillam 2004. So there's a there's a trope there and link with with Jewish folks and immoral fatness and diabetes. And you can learn more about that by going to Gilman 2004 Work concerning but perhaps most noticeably, POTUS. This word is always getting me Protestant ism, Protestant ism there seems to be too many T's even though we're removing sexuality from the equation in theory anyway, gluttony is also interwoven with several other deadly sins most and most noticed noticeably. sloth or excessive avoidance of work and physical effort and greed or unchecked desire for something or someone. Fat individuals are not only in parrot, when it comes to physical hungers, but are also constructed religiously and popularly popularly as lazy, indolent and idle in the face of industriousness. This is another one of those rather paradoxical discourses about fatness. Since it seems that people are unsure whether fat folks are driven to consume and assuage our ravenous hungers or to passion less to do much of anything. I really like that line. of paradoxical discourses about fatness seems people are unsure whether fat folks are driven to consume and assuage our ravenous angers, or to passion less to do much of anything. Yeah. Max Aviva. A key figure in classical sociological theory wrote a book in 1920 that touches on a number of these issues. his classic book, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism traces one of the threads of the diligent work ethic characterizing high capitalism. Oddly enough, he notes that the emergence of Protestant Protestant protest and Protestantism, Protestant Protestantism coincided and coexisted quite snugly with early capitalism. I shall devote and unfortunately a brief discussion to his enormously influential theory paying special attention to how examining the Protestant Ethic illuminates some of the steep seated roots of fatphobia in Western culture, most specifically in the United States. So that bit there is we're talking about the work of what Max Weber Weber veba, who is linking Protestant, the Protestant Ethic with capitalism. And so we've got the the ethic, which includes around food and, you know, not being lazy and working hard. And then the roots of capitalism being if you want to be good or seen as good, you need to be a productive member of society. And to be productive. You need to do the things work hard, not eat, be thin, all that type of stuff.

Unknown Speaker 27:50

Okay, so Weber traces the Western reverence of independence back to Protestant Protestantism, paying special attention to Calvinism and its notion of predestination. According to Calvinists, and several other Protestant sects, God has chosen only a limited number of persons 144,000, to be just as precise as his total number of electoral heaven bound. The blasphemous idea that individuals had any control over the elect pneus challenge God's on omniscience, and as well as his fillings his filing system. Therefore, Calvinists accepted that accepted the rather grim notion that out of millions and now billions of people who have ever lived, only a tiny fraction will ever wander into paradise. The question then arises, why bother to exercise self control and live a moral life when one salvation is pre destined, in response, an ethic emerge in Protestantism, of proving one's a laxness by living a life dedicated not to worldly, read bodily pleasures, but to God alone. Unlike Catholicism, which allowed the purging of sin through confession, Calvinists sin accumulated throughout their lives, in order to prove one's elect status, Calvinists and other Protestant sects preached and living from one sin free moment to the next. As a result, one's level of asceticism in life also served as his or her or their test of righteousness. From this individualization of salvation, arose an emphasis on measuring personal behavior, read a shoe in worldly pleasures to determine one's degree of holiness, indulging in such worldly desires that delights as laziness, greed and gluttony represented the height of immorality leading to, quote, attitude toward the towards the sin of one's neighbor, not often sympathetic understanding but of hatred and contempt of her or him or them as enemy of God bearing the signs of eternal damnation. So I mean, shit. Clearly, if 144,000 People are the only ones that are going to get into heaven, then you go on to be really good, really good. Considering this now 8 billion people on the planet and you know how many billions people have already lived in the years that God has been around? Then? I'm just thinking like, when God, When did God begin to begin a big bit? When did God make the presence of God known? According to religious people? I'm like, is it? Did they say 2000 years ago? Is that what that? No whatever. So let's just say billions and billions of businesses, so it means that your chance of getting into heaven are very, very low. And so instead of just being like, Oh, I'm just gonna, not gonna I'm not gonna have dessert today. Theoretically, then it's kind of like No, every single thing has to be perfect, or I am not going to be one of the small percent that gets into heaven. And so, you can see how that righteousness that really clearly the Protestant Ethic did not confine itself to religious institutions, where it was Protestant Ethic is, and its teachings of moderation and hard work pervade us, in such forms as the late 19th century and early 20th century temperance movement, movement, the recent war on drugs and the cult of health ism that has emerged within the last 25 years. Fat persons are supposed representatives of quote overindulgent and lassitude, then violate many Americans 91 million of whom identify as Protestant, deeply rooted values of hard work and self sacrifice. Yeah, so it's interesting to see how, you know, we're talking about the history here, we're going back to, you know, hundreds and hundreds of years ago, and it's kind of like, well, we don't believe that stuff. Now. I mean, we know we're not we don't think the same ways and we don't hold those beliefs. And there's, you know, not what did they not your 1 million Protestants in America? And how many of those Protestants are like, yeah, if I ever eat a cookie, I'm gonna go to hell. You know, it's probably a very, very small portion of those, many of those are probably a lot more liberal in their views compared to before, but that doesn't matter. And it doesn't matter even if you are not religious, because these beliefs and the ethics around production and who is a worthy person and morality, it's into woven into the fabric of our current society so much, so we don't know where it comes from. We're not aware of it, we just know it is. We know deep down that we are more worthy in quotation marks, if we work hard, if we have a thinner body, if we are not lazy, if we do not indulge if we're not having sex with lots of different people, right. And of course, do all those things sound amazing? All the sexy all the vote. But it's in this is something I think about a lot of me trying to me trying to unlearn. And we've not even mentioned me trying to unlearn all the stuff we've ever mentioned. The fact that this comes from white people, white people who stole land and murdered indigenous communities, and indigenous communities, we're living in ways that are totally different from what we're describing here. Right? And they didn't have the the same beliefs of you need to be productive and thin and make penance for being alive. Or and white folks try to wipe all of that out because we believe that the way that we thought and believed was the right way, and that without doing the things that We thought we're gonna save us we will go to hell. And so it's unlearning white supremacy is unlearning racist ideologies. And we're not even talking about in today's episode about the connection between religion and anti black attitudes, because they are totally woven together. They are hand in hand they are they go, one doesn't go anywhere without the other. Right. And a lot of this stuff was that white superiority, see in black bodies and thinking, well, they are bad. They're not good like us. They are lazy ingredient too big and, and unlike us, we're superior. Because we have decided that you know, we are not going to eat this and we're going to do that and let alone and if you want to learn more about that, Dr. Sabrina springs, strings sorry, has an amazing book that goes into as well as Protestantism. fairing the black body. On all of this stuff, right. Sabrina strings. Okay, the theories of American individuality the Protestant ethics, condemnation of hedonism and materialism, and the belief that fat persons are seeking gratification in ungodly places, and things combined together to form a coherent picture of scientism built on the foundations of us individualism and asceticism. This is why as le Beskow notes, Protestants are especially taught intolerant of fatness tied as it is in popular discourse to notions of laziness and overindulgence. However, this concept of fat folks as embarrassingly lazy and greedy is not confined to Christians, as Weber so brilliantly demonstrates the Protestant Ethic contributes to the work hard now delay gratification until later ethos still buttressing capitalism. While its roots lie mostly in Protestantism. I would argue that the notion of working hard to get ahead in this land of endless opportunities is quintessentially capitalistic, and American, it is no longer in other words, confined to teachings from the pulpit. This explains why studies rank American as highest among industrialized nation citizens in our negative views of fat persons, and why some authors link fat phobia as vehemence and persistence to Western notions of freedom and individuality. I do sincerely believe the Protestant Ethic is more than a quaint concept from a bygone era. I think it still thrives today in the thought form of sin taxes, laws against vagrancy 12 Step programs, and condemnation of people regarded as slackers and carnal. indulges, this revulsion can expand to include anyone, but it's consistently applied to fat folks, many people of color and perhaps most obviously, poor people.

Unknown Speaker 38:36

Yes. So that that piece is that's just like, one snippet from that piece. But you can go all of the links to what we're talking about today in the show notes, which is facebook.com forward slash 152. Just an FYI. 152 Okay. So that was just one section Protestantism merge. Now I can say partisan ism is a big culprit. And I'm not saying Protestants up Pat, and a Protestant ism is evil, and solely responsible. But I mean, it's got a big big part to play right and I mean, it's it's why people it's why isn't what is white people. It's white people. Just why hello? Hey, my ancestor. And yeah, yeah, okay, so 1650 French king, Louis XIV, which is 10 Five minus 414. French King Louie the 14th was in power and declared himself above God. XIV is at 14 Let's google it. Let's just make sure XIV See, look is a little here's a little tip for you for working out. Those Roman numerals x is 10. Ay is one, V is five, and some if you've got x phi v x is 10. But then the AI is before the V. And if the AI is before the V, it means you take one off five, if the AI is after the V, you take, you add one to the five. And so if you had x i v, you would take two from the five. And so it would make x 10 plus the I V, so I two minus five is three makes it 13. But say if it was x VI, it would mean x 10 V five plus one. The i 16. Don't ask me about any I don't know what 20 is. Tony's probably xx. Anyway, Roman numerals for babies. French King Louie the 14th was empowering declared himself above God, as you do. What is it with these monarchs who were just like, fuck it, I'm better than Jesus. And the impact was new ways of cooking were created. And what we think of as classic French cuisine was developed. classic French cuisine being lots of delicious you know, how they say like lots of butter and, and delicious bread and cheese and meat and all of that type of stuff. Which is huge. So food and drink were allowed to be pleasurable. In that'll 1650, so 1675 taverns, tea houses, and other food and drink establishments that became popular. I mentioned before that there was, you know, not that many taverns and tea houses where you're going to where you're going to be at the Starbucks, right? I mean, really. And so the impact here was, these are sabotage and their popularity contradicted the religious messages calling for austerity and abstinence from pleasure. And to, and the people were torn between the two. I mean, I would be imagine if you were in 1965, and you spend all of your life eating like, I don't know, crackers and shit. And then there's a tea house or like a place that serves fresh bread with some butter or whatever. Or Ale, you be like, Oh, give me some. Did you see the new tavern that's opened across the road, you'd be down there, you know, getting shit faced. And then the next morning, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm definitely going to hell. That would suck right now. You got your first hangover, but also you think you're going to hell, I mean, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, that you scratch in making a little hole for himself. That's gonna be guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt. You know, think of all the people though, who were like, I don't believe in that stuff. I'm just gonna fuckin eat some food. I'm just gonna have some sacks behind the in behind the tavern, whatever, I'm going to eat some chicken or what you know, they're having a very hard time. They're probably like, this is a future. Ladies and gentlemen, we are in the future. We've got our taverns. Okay, so 1985 King Louie, again, audited destruction of Protestant churches, schools and the expulsion of Protestant clergy from France bit mean, I mean, you know, burned down the schools, I mean, Jesus. And so Protestants fled from France to neighboring countries and to America taking with them their austere ideal surrounding food, drink and pleasure. So, King Louie was like, Get out of here we want to eat and we want to eat butter and we want to have sex and have fun. It was kind of mean about it. 1700s women were not permitted to participate more in church, meaning that they were held to the church's beliefs more orange ugly. Beauty became synonymous with morality. And morality meant abstinence from pleasure, aesthetics, aesthetic ideals included thinness people were body shamed for not adhering to these ideals. Uh huh. Uh huh. And the thing is The thing is, the thing is as well, this stuff, you know, 1700s and so, everything about the transatlantic slave trade 1600s and white people being more exposed to variations in bodies, and and then to be a good white woman. You have to be not like black women. I mean 1750s There was a growing sect of atheism. Can you imagine being an atheist in like, medieval times? Imagine if you were like, This is what you for medieval times, like except 1750s isn't really what is medieval times? It's probably like the zeros or something, right? Medieval medieval times an entertainment company dates. When do you think it is? You haven't guessed? I have a guess. See if you're right. Many medieval area also called the Middle Asia, the Dark Ages began around 476 ad and went from ending in 1400. Let me go 1450. There we go. See? Same, just out of the medieval medieval area. You might imagine going back to the 1750 and being like, I'm a fucking atheist. Like, I'm pretty scared. If I had like a time machine. I'd be going back. Yeah. Yeah, yep. Yep, definitely. Because what are they gonna do you know, that French king was like, went to bed and your judges lol How fun guys. Like, it'd be worse if you were like, not a white person. Didn't matter what you said you'd be you'd be fucked. So there's a growing sector of atheism and 1750s. While they shunned organized religion, their opinions and vernacular remained rooted in religious ideal ideas about food and body morality. Same story, new name. Yeah. So, you know, even though you're even though they're still, even though they're a, they are atheist doesn't mean that they're going to unlearn all that stuff. That's 100 years, hundreds of years in the making, right? It's just a part of what we quote No. And why would we be any better than those people who are who are atheist? You know, like, yeah, we have the internet and shear, and we can do do research. But I mean, it's, it just goes to show that if we don't examine these things, when they just sort of perpetuate and then you know, the roots are, the roots of it are unhelpful and harmful to a lot of people. But then it just becomes, as you know, we all know, we all know. And I wonder about, like, what else do we currently do? I currently believe that is rooted in oppressive ideologies. You know, pseudoscience, religious zealot type stuff, but I'm just like, well, you know, I'm wonder I just can't I can't wait to find out you know, and be like, Oh, shit. Oh, really? Have any you thought this? Yeah. So that's the end of the infographic on diet culture timeline, but

Unknown Speaker 48:29

this bullshit didn't has didn't stop in the 1750s. One guy that I particularly don't like, is Sylvester Graham, who was a Presbyterian minister. So in an 1830 Graham, Sylvester Graham, from graham cracker, or as North Americans like to say, graham cracker, forgetting there's an H in there you lot. Graham cracker, or graham cracker. Sylvester Graham, I guess he was North American himself. So we'll call him Graham. met William Metcalf. Reverend Metcalf was preaching on vegetarianism and promoting George Chait. George Cheney's dietary advice of portion control and water therapy in the pursuit of godliness. Graham was a believer. He took these messages and use them to reinvigorate the old Protestant food morality beliefs in America. He preached that certain foods weren't just gluttonous, but were also bad for your health. Well, he didn't invent the Good Food bad food dichotomy. He did proselytize it to Graham, sugar, caffeine, meat, spices, yeasted. Bread, condiments and alcohol would cause indigestion illness, civil unrest and lead to ungodly sexual appetites in men, including masturbation, whether married or not. Not masturbation. If you have some spices on your mood, his story sounds like the author dot Orthorexic diet culture of today sans the sex talk. He claims certain bad foods made himself poor as a child and once he cut them out of his diet, he felt better. What he didn't share was that his childhood was full of trauma. By the time he was an adult, he was reportedly an exhausted and bitter person. Yeah, no shit. He's another one you him and that other fella from from like seven when at whatever the reformer the Protestant reformer him them two together at a party. Oh my god. Imagine you were stuck there. You just walked out there to them to nattering away. You walked up with a glass of wine. What are you talking about? And they're like, oh, wow, I'm on this wall as I only drink water then I'm gonna go to lasers. He encouraged his followers to eat only bland unstimulating Food for health and morality, which he believed would make a person of robust, his followers feed becoming too thin. So he had several set he had several set about prove to prove the naysayers wrong. For the first time in recorded history, people weighed themselves to determine if their diet cause weight loss or not. Although the intention was to not lose weight, their experiences proved that we still see time and time again with any version of restricted eating they lost a little bit of weight initially, and then gained it back or maintained the same weight Yeah, so Sylvester gray and then also Kellogg's, John Harvey Kellogg Cohen, John Hart, John Harvey Kellogg was a P. S piece of shit 1905 the Kellogg company was selling about 150 cases of conflicts per day, not counting other products. And one of their popular snacks were graham crackers. Named after Sylvester Graham Kellogg was a fan and follower of Graham's diet recommendations. Let me go back to stuff about Kellogg. So Kellogg early 20th century advocates for sexual temperance both developed him and Graham both developed foods to keep sexual excesses included the dread dreaded masturbation and homosexuality in check. cornflakes, for example, were designed by Jay haitch Kellogg as a massive Anna aphrodisiac, aphrodisiac, so opposite of aphrodisiac to temper and eventually reduce sexual ardor in American men. More interesting than the introduction of these healthy foods was the public's unblinking reaction to the concept of controlling sexuality through foods. I argue this is because the links between the two runs deep in Western culture and as especially salient example of such linkings occur in overuse discussion of the perceived improprieties of the contemporary black bottom. In the quote in the mind of the black, upwardly mobile the but may connote a lack of self analysis, a loose, unrealistic restricted appetite for food sex dances like the atomic dog. It's like having a big mouth, or no table manners. That's interesting. Aubrey Aubrey from 2004. Let me tell you more about Kellogg. Just as a side note because Kellogg is not religious or it probably was religious. Probably.

Unknown Speaker 53:56

1906 John Harvey Kellogg provided capital to help found the race Betterment foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan. What could this be about the race Betterment foundation? This was a eugenics institution that promoted the idea that quote inferior peoples should not be permitted to reproduce fun times. Kellogg warned that it warns that if white women had one child with a black man all hurt children afterwards would be part black and this would be bad blood. Yeah, so you Genesis racist. John Harvey Kellogg wonder when he died let's have a look. John.

Unknown Speaker 54:49

Oh yeah. Dr. 1943 wonder what side he was on in world One on mobile two. I'm gonna watch some videos about this guy this guy's getting on legit John Harvey Kellogg. I'm gonna go into a YouTube black hole now and be like, know everything about this one guy. Also it was either Graham or Kellogg or both of them who advocated and and successfully advocated for circumcision. And because they didn't want men to masturbate and a great way to get men to not be able to masturbate is to take away the beautiful foreskin and obviously, penis havers can masturbate without a foreskin but it their thinking was that it was not going to be as fun and so they they told people to chop off their children's part of their sex organ in order to stop masturbation. So that's fun. I mean, what is the point of being alive? It no masturbation no food, no drinking no anything like and even when I'm saying drinking not even at you know I'm not even thinking about alcohol like you know, orange juice you know? No having fun no dancing no just just die I mean really what is the point so moving into more recent times we've got an article here purity through food how religious ideas sell diets from the Atlantic trigger warning there is I mean these are the this is not written by pro fat people this is written by by people who are like diets a silly but move that people are obviously unhealthy lol So just a heads up on that. So quote from this, foods aren't either natural or unnatural. They are good or bad bad foods harm you and good foods cleanse you bad foods or sinfully delicious or guilty pleasures, good foods or whole real clean and natural bad foods are fake and natural unprocessed. The terms we use reflect idiosyncratic dietary faiths. The religion scholar and Alan Levin of its explains in his new book, that gluten lie. So this book, I guess, came out in 2015. This is when this article is wrong. And I presume reading this article that the book is about how we shouldn't be afraid of gluten unless you're celiac Gluten is a okay. So, the book gluten lie in which he examines why people tend to put moral and religious lenses on food terminology. Much of people's relationship to food can be explained by religious patterns of thought. Our words are often more philosophical than scientific and our words and form approaches to eating and overall well being in deeply consequential ways. So hence that you know that beginning bit foods are good or bad, you know, that type of thing. When Levin of it was studying in China during the area era, when everyone in the US was terrified of mono sodium, glutamate, MSG, he talked to local people who are wholly unconcerned. MSG was everywhere, and it was fine. It was simply living of its rights in the book, a sodium salt first extracted from seaweed by Japanese scientists in 1908, and a staple sneeze seasoning in the cuisine of long lived East Asian Asians. But health conscious Americans knew better, knew better as in they didn't know better. In the States, MSG was an interloper. By the way, MSG is great, it's fine. The fear around MSG is racism. Okay, MSG makes things taste great. And it's not going to kill you. Okay? So if you've been avoiding MSG, because you think that you know, you're going to spray it on your eyeball or something, then I encourage you to go and look into Google MSG. Racism. Because it's the word here interloper, MSG being an interloper. It's racism. Continuing, I was shocked to learn that people thought sugar was bad in the late 1700s. He said, still appearing genuinely shocked, as he told me when we met recently in DC by sickly as soon as it was introduced, people said it was bad. Yeah. So imagine if you had sugar for the first time in 1700s this new thing and tastes so good. You've never had sugar. You've never had sugar before. And then you taste sugar you and then you were religious. You brought it all down, go down. Okay, so yes, Sugar was bad even before diabetes and fatness they use your word existed in the average person's mind. The reasoning. Pleasure was sinful. People blamed hypersexuality and alcoholism on sugar. Sugar was foreign. It was associated with savages who eat it, it was bad. According to James Wright, James Redfield, 1852 Comparative fizzy you're not physio and not non non physio not non me. Okay, today there's been so many long words in this episode and I am feeling deeply unintelligent for not know how to pronounce all of them, but I'm gonna hope that you are giving me grace. And what's the word? laughing with me when I tell you this. This is a book from 1852 Okay, so who knows a word is no physio no with a why physio Nom nom nom physiognomy. Okay, physiognomy. Animals that eat honey are courageous and careful like the bee, the hummingbird and the bear, while those that prefer sugar are not virtuous, like their housefly or the ants that lives in the Sugar Bowl. Even though honey is higher in fructose, and then the high fructose corn syrup people now love to blame for all our health problems. Honey has long had enjoyed a halo of naturalness. So honey is higher in fructose than high fructose corn syrup. But there's a Haley's has enjoyed a halo of naturalness. And high fructose corn syrup, people love to blame on all of our health problems, which is to say that it is not the cause of all of our health problems. It's the same halo that protects juice, but demonizes soda, even though the differences at a macro nutrient level are negligible. Younger level of it's initially thought he'd become a bio ethicist, but took to religion because of an interest in the way narratives inform beliefs. Philosophy is all about evidence and logic. But then there's religion where people just tell stories, and that was a way of convincing someone of a worldview. He assumed for a long time, like most people who haven't studied the origins of religious food traditions that people were taught to avoid pork, for rational reasons, like the outbreak of chicken osis the shellfish because of food spoilage, but that biological theory was rejected by many anthropologists. Level of its explains in the 1960s, Mary Douglas wrote a book called purity and danger where she pointed out that most food taboos can't be accounted for by medical concerns. She makes the argument that foods were prohibited in Leviticus how to do with animals that cross boundaries. For instance, for instance, fish without scales, they were dirty, not because there was some plausible biological basis for ingesting shark and getting sick. They were dirty. None of its agrees, quote, because they didn't fit into a neat creation scheme. In other words, in other words, they weren't natural, natural. Pope Francis has embodied this position in his entreaties, to respect nature, at least implicitly, not to genetically modified foods. Genetically modified foods are fine. Everything. If you're eating an apple, it's been genetically modified. If you're eating a potato has been genetically modified. If someone is using

Unknown Speaker 1:04:45

genetically modified doing genetic modification in a lab, versus even in a field is genetic modification, right? It's like picking out the best potatoes that cropped and said these are the ones that we want to plant again, right. Okay, so This is one of the greatest challenges of our time he said last year to convert ourselves for a type of development that knows how to respect creation. Can the Pope did the pope just die

Unknown Speaker 1:05:14

from it then died because the Queen died. Just yeah, okay. incumbencies 2013 I didn't say how old he is. See, I'm like God so many titles. Yeah, how old is he

Unknown Speaker 1:05:34

nicknames His Holiness. Anyway, whatever. Go back to back to this the, by the way the pipe is not dead. Okay, that was something popped into my mind. Maybe I had a dream about the pipe died. And I'm like, that's the point. Did I see every news story about that? Alright, so wrapping science around beliefs creates arguments like and then I didn't century that interracial man marriage leads to repeat offsprings. Now the same logic is used against genetically modified plants, people use biological arguments to justify the same belief. There's been around since the beginning of time, new things are a natural and dangerous stuff was better before we're risk adverse and scared of new things. That makes sense from a survival perspective. But it makes for lousy science. I'm also in the web now modern days there are lots of places and religions that do talk about how being thin and not eating a lot of food and all of that type of stuff they stick there's a lot of religions that that teach you that I covered one. In episode 125 called Food faith, MLM, MLM, MLMs and cults. So it's faith, food five, M L MLMs. And cults from Episode 125. And we talked about GWEN SHAMBLIN And Gwen Shamblin have a diet called the way down and she had a colts religion but there's a hilarious hilarious, juicy, scandalous stuff that comes with Gwen Shamblin there's a documentary called the way down on HBO max or Craven if you're in Canada, talking about her life and the cult, it's really good but to watch it if you haven't already. It's called the way down. And anyway, so she's someone recently who is like you need to be thin to go to heaven to be godly you need to put down there she she's like put down between key and you'll go to heaven. She has really big hair lots of hairspray. Blonde, and she's a huge character. Yeah, and lots of lots of scandal I think was she may be like in an lmm or something. But anyway, there's a there's a piece called from Nexium to the way down cults really love a diet. I love a dangerous diet culture. So Nexium was another was another cult who rounded women and also made them starve themselves. Because the leader was had a preference for very, very thin and young looking women that he would then have sex with. So yeah, all of this stuff is still going on now. And even if people are agnostic or atheist or whatever, it's still a part of, of our, our DNA right? Of who makes a good person. And yeah, so Protestant ism was the kind of leading leading force however, many other religions have have have stories and rules and guidelines around fineness being close to godliness. Maybe not as much as those Protestants and maybe not as much as today. Have not researched modern day, Protestants. them. And I'm pretty sure that it's it's not like what it was. Maybe I'm wrong is Google it. God in faith alone rather than a combination of faith with good works, posits that the Bible is the sole authority, infallible authority reject, they reject papal supremacy, but they disagree among themselves regarding the number of sacraments, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the matters of Ecclesia Ecclesia color, color Ecclesia capital policy and apostle iStick succession so he's probably he's probably not now. I mean, maybe maybe presidents and listen to this and being like, for folks like this is what we do. Now. We've got nothing to do with all of that, that wacky stuff we did in 500 years ago. But I'm sure something I'm sure you know, you know, as in within all people with faith and with not faith, there's going to be people who were spouting diet cultural bullshit, and people who are doing the opposite right so yeah, yeah, yeah. So there we have it the overview of the history of diet culture and religion and yeah, I wonder if we've you know, what we can do to question these beliefs of, of laziness and I'm good or bad if I eat this and realizing where they come from and and as well just a reminder as well this is all this stuff is deeply tied into anti black racism and white supremacy. And to learn more about that go check out Dr. Sabrina strings and her book fear in the black body for that religion and anti black racism piece, going even even more in depth on that stuff. So yeah, thanks for hanging out with me today. Links for everything that we talked about in the show notes which is facebook.com forward slash 152. Hope you're feeling now if you did have the winter blues. You're feeling a little bit better after hanging out with me today. Hopefully not worse. And I'll see you on the next episode. Okay, stay face funny.

Episode 151 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

Unknown Speaker 0:00

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast Episode 151, The Whale: Fatphobic Misery P*rn.

Unknown Speaker 0:21

Hello, welcome to this podcast episode. I'm your host, Vinny Welsby pronounces a them I am going to be talking about the movie that a whale today. And so because of that huge trigger warnings on a lot of really awful fatphobia and talking about those depictions of fat bodies brief mention of eating disorders talking about food. Yeah, it's it's the feeling of today. So if you're not feeling like you want to hear that stuff today, then come back next episode. But yeah, the the film came out this week, a few days ago. And so we've got some reviews that have come out. Want to talk about those? And also the depiction of fatness, in fatness and those who are, who don't leave their homes for whatever reason, whether that's acrophobia or in accessibility, disability, etc. In North America, I've heard the fate freeze shut in. But I think that that is probably stigmatizing. So I'm just going to say people who stay in their stay in their homes. But the idea of the way that fatness is depicted as these fat people are in their homes, and don't leave, and how in the whale, and in a couple of other instances, I'm going to give you the way that that is depicted in the work the reasons why that isn't so great. Obviously, we love fat representation. But fortunately, we've got a lot of fat suits and stuff. So yeah, before we get started, I want you to give you a little bit of joy, a little bit of a little bit of happiness. But before I do that, a reminder about the vacation to the Dominican Republic. If you have any questions, let me know this affairs, but your vacation, we have five earlybird spots left now. So if you want to get an early bird spot, which is $100 cheaper, then go to the link in the show notes or go anywhere you can find me there'll be a link somewhere for our Dominican Republic fat vacation. But yeah, the thing that I was like, Oh, isn't it a joy is there's an artist on the social medias who sings songs. And I want you to tell you about her. Her name is mother moon, and you can find mother moon on Spotify. And I guess other places that music, music lives. And this is where it is one of her songs you might have heard of it. And it goes. I think it's called I love my body.

Unknown Speaker 3:59

I love my body from my head to my toes. I love my face, my eyes, my mouth, my nose. I love the way I look when I look in the mirror. I stand a little closer just to see a little clearer. I hope you do too. You're worthy of your own love. It is true. So what do we say? We tell ourselves we love us every day.

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So you might have heard that song. She's got a couple of another one which is about loving your belly and just so cute like so if you've got kids or if you're like me and don't have find it healing and nice and cute. It was actually one of my siblings birthdays this week and I did a little recording of me singing that song to her. And it's she liked it. So yeah, Mother moon on the Instagrams. I'll link to do that in the show notes, show notes. physically.com, forward slash 1501. Mother moon, what else I was going to do? And then links to everything else that we're talking about today in shownotes. So I want to read a few pieces, people's initial reactions to the whale. I was trying to find a pirated copy because I was like, not going into the movies and giving this film money my money, because I as I was paying me to write an article or whatever, no, no, I can't I feel I can't I can't do it. And to be seen in the cinema watching the way I just can't and to see you know why people in their being like, so moving how disgusting that people are. Yeah, so I was trying to find a pirated copy, but couldn't find one because I think it's because it's new only a few days ago. And I could probably if I if I kept looking, I could probably find it. But it's probably a good thing that I didn't because I I bought a copy of What's Eating Gilbert Grape, which is another movie that I want to mention today. And I sped watch that and going through the research for today, I noticed that I was like, Oh, I'm internalizing fat bias because I was about to record the podcast, I'd been working on this and it was in the zone, you know, the zone where you just just so hyper focused and you're like, Oh, my God, I really need to do a wee but you're like, No, I just 10 more minutes, have more minutes, and you'll just eventually like, Okay, fine. You don't have to have to get up because I'm going to pace myself. So you know, the zone. And then I was like, Okay, well, I've done it now. I'll just bust out the episode. And then I was like, oh, no, actually, I'm really hungry. I should eat some lunch. And then

Unknown Speaker 7:07

my brain was like, just don't. And I was, I was like, Yeah, you know,

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I know what I mean. You know, it's just so I can't be bothered to make food. And then the other side of my brain was like, it's self care,

Unknown Speaker 7:21

make some lunch, you're really

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hungry. You know, what was coming up was a lot of the stuff. That the way that fatness is depicted. In the shows, obviously, there's a lot of stuff around food. And even someone like me, who has done so many years of work on that, how quickly that that kind of seeped into my brain. And I think the difference now is that I'm very easily able to go should I actually not eat lunch? Because I'm one of these depictions. And I shouldn't because I'm not allowed to and did it? Uh, or should I? Or should I just nourish myself and you know, self care, and you know, just basic things of needing to be alive? Yes, I should do that. But I really made me think about how for others who are maybe newer on their journey or anyone else with a human brain, who lives in a bigger body or even know how all of this stuff is directly harmful to us. And of course, everyone else like their mental health might be in different places. And it might be more harmful to others and less and maybe not even harmful to serve to some folks but it just it was you know, so interesting. How do we know when we know this stuff is harmful and seeing it in action in my beautiful brain? I was like, No, I'm gonna eat some fucking lunch then do the podcast and it's okay if the sunsets during the recording the podcast, because you know, it's the winter and sunsets just early anyway. So yeah, all that to say blobby blue Bloop, trigger warning and also Yeah, if you're feeling like shit afterwards, listening to this stuff or feeling angry or whatever. Give yourself some self care. So, the first thing that I want to quote from is a piece called the exhausting fatphobia of the whale by Victoria eidl. And Victoria says, Brendan freezes apparently pressed up this apparently this whole thing of Brendan Fraser has been saying that everyone's been pronouncing his name incorrectly for many years. And I was like, really? Freezer. How are you pronouncing freezer wrong? And apparently people call him call him phrase year. And I was like, Look at me. Hey, I'm one of the people that has correctly pronounced it correctly because it's spelt Fraser right. So anyway, if you're pronouncing it freeze year, like it's got an eye in there. It's actually Fraser. So anyway, Brendan Fraser, come back film, The whale has made tons of headlines thanks to people's excitement overseeing his return to screens. He's received emotional standing emotions at film festivals reunited reunited with former co stars. They've been candid about his life and career journey during his press tour. And yet, the whale released by age 24 and directed by Darren Aronofsky, is very bad. In the movie freezer plays Charlie, a gay fat man who is estranged from his teenage daughter, and supports himself by teaching writing classes over zoom. He loves writing and reading though we never actually see him do any. So that first paragraph that have left that last line, we never actually see him do any, is the first issue with these types of films, these fat phobic misery porn films is it paints that characters in a very two dimensional way, fat people who stay in their homes, seemingly, their sole purpose is to eat food, eat lots of food, and then maybe have some what others perceive as undignified pursuits, like watching daytime TV, or masturbating or stockpiling food, right? That is what we know about fat folks. And especially fat folks who live in their homes and for whatever reason due to disability or mental health issues, or whatever it is, right, that's that's the character food and something you know, their personality is something else like something intellectual right? Even though this with the character Charlie is a teacher clearly knows enough to be a teacher yet. He doesn't pursue that himself. Apparently, you know, his life is masturbating and eating food and eating food in a really gratuitous way. Right. The something that I noticed was when I was on that TV show The O word. The way they portrayed the fat folks who liked being fat with food and versus the fat folks who didn't like being fat is that they put they we all would eat the exact same thing right? And they would show me as a fat person who likes being fat eating the quote unquote unhealthy food and then you would see the good fatties you know, drinking a glass of water eating a salad even though I'd really in the same dinner with a salad but they wouldn't wouldn't show that right. And that is often almost exclusively the way that fat people are portrayed with food is eating food that is perceived as unhealthy or bad in some way and also becoming animalistic around that food becoming overcome with desire for the food that all awareness of their surrounding is is gone because they're just gobbling it down so quickly in Grease dripping down their face and stains on their clothes and and that is what is happening in the whale. Charlie is eating I mean, a bucket of chicken. Could you get any more fat phobic trophy bucket of chicken and eating food feverishly eating foods so quickly that he chokes? So, to me, that sounds like Charlie might have an eating disorder. Doesn't that sound as listeners to the show if you haven't listened to the show? And that sound like maybe Charlie has something going on some something, you know, disordered eating behaviors, eating disorder, or perhaps, you know, if it's not a problem for him, perhaps that's just, you know, the way he eats. And it's not an issue for him. But why is it that that is just eating like that is framed as an exclusively fat, quote problem. Versus just fat people just eating food the way that everyone eats food. And that, that, that that means to say that sometimes fat people eat food in that way. I mean, it's a thing, you know, obviously amped up for for the camera, it can because fat people can have eating disorders and and think people can have eating disorders and eat food in that way. And also, the majority of fat people don't have eating disorders because the majority of humans don't have eating disorders and eat exactly like thin people, but that doesn't make entertainments does it it doesn't make an entertaining movie if you just saw Charlie in the whale, you know, having a nice you know, chicken salad with some fair freshly break bread. That wouldn't be that wouldn't satisfy the thin viewer to say few I'm not going to be in the same predicament as Charlie because I don't eat the same way he does I'm not you know I don't have grease dribbling down my my face and I'm not walking around in stained clothes from the food that I'm eating. I'm not an animal. So it's that distancing. It's making fat people inhuman and a spectacle of law. Let's go look at this poor unfortunate soul. Let's continue from from Victoria's piece. Charlie calls himself disgusting multiple times, and the camera agrees with him. The viewer is invited to gawk at Charlie. Every time he rises from the couch. The music swells as if he was the literal whale of the movie's title rising above the waves. Charlie's apartment is depressing. His clothes are always sweaty and greasy, his hair is terrible. He has accessibility devices to help him get through his routine. But they are all jerry rigged and looked like they're falling apart. He's judged for using them at all. Every time Charlie yells or laughs or grunts or groans it turns into a coughing attack. Yeah. And that, again, speaks to the two dimensional characters that we see with fat folks. And when we have these stories of fat people portrayed by people who are not sharing the same identities and people will say well, Brendan Fraser he's fat. He's not the size of Charlie. Right, Charlie and the story is apparently 600 pounds. And that has never been Brendan Fraser's experience. He has not lived Charlie's life or he would not need to be wearing a fat suit. The original writer of the play that the book was based on he he was fatter in his younger younger life and then apparently lost weight. He too was never the size of Charlie he too, didn't live the life of Charlie he too was not disabled. He too was not you know living in his home and not not coming out. So, because this story is written by people and acted and and produced, directed by people who do not have that lived experience, they cannot portray fatness in its reality. And fatness in his reality is things like fat phobia and ableism and lack of good health care and discrimination and accessibility issues, all that type of stuff. And it's Julius and it you know, Fat people have wonderful lives and are happy and are smart and are interesting and all of the same things that the rest of humanity is. But that doesn't make good viewing, we are told by the director, that this is an act of empathy making by watching this film. Potentially it could be empathy making, if we had a character that wasn't framed in such a violent way, you know, wasn't framed as pitiful. That's exactly pitiful. Because of course, you know, there can be people that you pity but really, is that the full story to people and, and what what is it doing by continuing to present stories of fat people who are pitiful? Is that is that really? Is that fat liberation? Or is it the same old tired, boring trope that we have seen for ages? Because this is nothing new, right? This is nothing new. This is my 600 pound life but you know, with millions of dollars spent to make it into a film and that show is fucked up. So that was from Pop Sugar. Victoria

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Edo and we have

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something for us from Slant Magazine. fatphobia sinks. Darren Aronofsky, is drama by Mike Hanson. Mike Hanson is a thin, young white man, which was really interesting to see that he was able to pick out the fact that this was fucked up. Okay, so this is what Mark Hanson says for smart magazine. Throughout, Aronofsky invites us to gawk at Fraser's pathetic enhanced appearance as his character show showers, masturbates and precariously moves around his rundown Idaho apartment with the aid of a rickety Walker. When the man binges on meatball sandwiches or chocolate bars, it's shot and scored with the bombastic revulsion of a horror movie. But considering how Liberty eek so liberty is a cinematographer for the film. Considering how libertex Camera leering. Lee treats Charlie as an unsightly object of pity throughout, it's difficult to deny the films but phobia. Though it's more Kushner's is no less oppressive. Aronofsky may think he's presenting some kind of radically cathartic journey throughout the world. But all he's doing is bringing a hollow sense of dignity to his schematic brand of cinematic misery porn. Misery porn is by the way, the the genre of you know, people stories of overcut of experiencing, you know, hard things, hardship and terrible things. A lot of the books that I would have read in my younger years would be like people's experience of overcoming childhood abuse, and so that would be classed as misery porn and misery porn is not necessarily a bad thing or anything. It's when we're this you know, Misery porn in regards to look how miserable a fat person's life is. A fat person who has a potential eating disorder and potential mental health issues and mobility issues, and lack blacking connection with people like it's just untold, I think people it gives us not good. My favorite piece that I saw in response to the whale came from Roxane Gay Roxane Gay is the person who wrote bad feminist and other things. And I've got a link to the article because it's behind a paywall from the New York Times. If you ever go if you want to ever want to find some it behind a paywall, go to archive dot P haitch. And put the link in there. Archive dot P Each and then it will give you a screenshot of the article from whenever it was last archived on the web. Okay, so I'm gonna give you some quotes from the cruel spectacle of the whale Roxane Gay. It's a short it's a short piece, but I think you should go and read the whole thing. The whale Darren Aronofsky. His latest film is one you hope desperately will be seen by an audience audience that has the necessary cultural literacy, the empathy to watch the story and recognize that the onscreen portrayal of fatness bears little resemblance to those to the lived experience of fat people. It is a gratuitous self aggrandizing it is gratuitous self aggrandizing fiction at best. The disdain the filmmakers seem to have for the protagonist is constant and inescapable. For most of its to our runtime, the whale is emotionally devastating. Charlie's grief is a grief and an inability to find the will to live is utterly crushing. It is overwhelming and relentless, manipulative and pitiable. I suppose that's the point of this particular adaptation from sound hunters play of the same name. Okay, continuing on picking out picking out one of my favorite quotes here. Mr. Fraser brings pathos to the role, though I wish he was given better material more worthy of his talents, talent, his performance makes him a strong contender for all the major awards. And that's a shame, not because he doesn't deserve them, but because What's also been rewarded is such a demeaning portrayal of a fat man, we will hear about how brave Mr. Fraser is for taking on a role like this for wearing a fat suit for being willing to embody so many people's worst fears. Hollywood loves to reward actors who dare to take on roles that require them to abandon the good looks that enabled their careers. Yeah, and the thing is, like, Brendan Fraser, you know, all power to him. And, you know, what a great story that he's coming back. And he is in a bigger body now. And he's being embraced by Hollywood. If he had not had that, if he had that same body when he was younger, would he have even ever got a role? Nope. So it's his thin privilege has made him get to this point and in the first place, but, you know, I felt nothing but you know, good for him vibes. And it's unfortunate that he is not able to do speak up to fat phobia versus doing this. Anyway, continuing at points, I was reminded of Leaving Las Vegas, which is another film that films so it's really hard for me to watch that. And how Ben Sanderson played by Nicolas Cage is afforded a kind of dignity as he drinks himself to death. He is part of the world even if he even as he forces his way out of it. Charlie is not granted any such thing. The whale claims to have been told with care and grace, but it's just as exploitative, as any episode of TLC is my 600 pound life. In the opening scene, it isn't quite clear what is happening until everything comes into focus. Charlie is masturbating to porn drenched in sweat out of breath. It's unclear what will happen first, orgasm or death. The problem isn't that Charlie looks the way he does or struggles in his body. The problem is that the creators cannot hide their contempt. Anytime try, Charlie tries to satisfy an all too human urge. So many other creative choices feel unnecessary. In one scene Charlie in a fit of emotional pain, gorgeous himself on a food he can find, starting with a greasy pizza. Before long his face is slicked with grease and he has thrown open his refrigerator desperately. Desperate for anything to fill the yawning void of hurt from which he cannot escape. There is another scene in which he eats a bucket of fried chicken. And then there's his wardrobe tent like clothing threadbare, perpetually soaked in sweat the rolls of his stomach spilling over his size. The Walker he cannot move without always by his side, as he heaves himself up. Each time he needs to change locations. The way the whale is told reflects such a profound and pathetic dearth of imagination. At several points, my wife and I wanted to walk out of the screening, but we didn't want to see seem rude or oversensitive. So Roxanne was at a screening with the director. And she says, well in the article, she looked around and There was only about four people who was fat in the cinema and not a single fat person on stage afterwards when they did the q&a. I mean shit. I would have wanted to walk out too, and also wouldn't have wanted you to seem rude of or, or oversensitive. In the q&a after the screen in the director, Mr. Aronofsky said proudly that Charlie's story was told with empathy

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the whale in the end isn't the serious film it so desperately wants to be it's a carnival sideshow. Come look at the freak the movie beckons. That's it and as well, why, why I was like, at that Aronofsky saying it was told with empathy. And fat people have said, Excuse me, Darren, this is fat phobic. This is not empathetic. This is harmful and and not appreciated by the fat community. And in articles we've that's come out since in the last few days, he said, Didn't we talk about it is empathetic. I mean, if a marginalized group says, We don't like this, this is fucked up. You sit down and listen, even if you don't understand, even if you genuinely thought that you did an amazing job, and that you deeply admire that the group that you you're talking about or whatever, and your intentions were pure, lala land doesn't matter. Sit down and listen to the community that you are portraying. And you say that you are portraying in an empathetic way really, this is this is just like a basic, you know, one on one how to be a human. If someone says, This is not good from the community you're portraying, then you just have to say I fucked up. But for whatever reason, he can't do that. And this is really making me think about Sarki or Sarah Baartman, which was the she was the queen, Queen woman who was exhibited as a freak show carnival attraction in the 19th century, in in, in Europe, and was named the hot and top venous and because of her body size. And then after her death, her body was displayed in a museum and that is a she's black woman. And obviously this is racism, because obviously, this is extra exploitation and the dehumanization of, of black people. And I mean, this is in 17. She was born in 1789 and unsavoury was also displayed alongside animal and we think about the way that and by the way, she was she was that case I didn't I didn't mention that. But okay, so that wasn't wasn't explicit, but

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yeah, her her

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her body and personhood was that word again that a few people have used gawked gawked at and dehumanized this, this fatness, this blackness, this otherness, that that US thin white people could either feel pity for or discuss use it as a form of entertainment to say, or at least we're not like that. And the way it's being framed is not hey, look at this, this look at this diversity in, in humans. And isn't it beautiful and wonderful? And no, it's it's a freak show is and if you you know some of those, you know, there's modern freak shows where people embody it and are empowered by that word. And that's not what I'm talking about. We're talking about people who were Sarki was coerced into showing her her body and, you know, I wonder how much if any, Free Will was there. And, and I wonder, too, with shows like my 600 pound life, the coercion of of of that that show and the fact that presumably, those people get paid in my 600 pound life and being 600 pounds or thereabout is means it's difficult to get work. And so how much consent is in that storytelling? Probably not a lot. So we're thinking about this. Also, I'm thinking about other ways that fat people have been depicted in cinema in the same way that Brendan Fraser's character Charlie has been, and, and to two similar types of depictions of the person who is living primarily in their home and not not leaving, and has a big body. A very big body. The two things that I thought of was What's Eating Gilbert Grape. And seven. Remember the movies? You might not? So yeah, I remember seeing both of them as a younger person. No, both came out in the 90s. Right. 107 Come out, I think I think What's Eating Gilbert Grape was 94. Seven. Okay, so seven was 95. What's Eating Eating Gilbert Grape, and the portrayal of fatness and being homebound. In those those films were sweet, specially in What's Eating Gilbert Grape was that framing of compassion. But it's only when you look a little bit you just scratch the surface a little bit. And you can see that there is no compassion there. It is deeply cruel. So What's Eating Gilbert Grape? It's also really ableist because it stars a young Leonardo DiCaprio as a child with an intellectual disability. playing a role of someone who is disabled. And yeah, so fucked up already on that. But we have. The film is about Johnny Depp creep. And Johnny Depp is Gilbert Grape, and he lives in this small town in this states. And he has a very fat mum. And so we start the movie with an introduction to who he is his siblings. He's got Leonardo DiCaprio as a sibling, and then two sisters. And they then he introduces the mom and says, kind of like, unfortunately, she hasn't left the house in over seven years. And then her first scene is his him saying that a voiceover and then he is giving her breakfast. A full Well, we'd say full English, which is you know, like bacon and eggs and toast or whatever. So he's given her a falling English while he has a thin some sips a cup of coffee. And he mentioned previously, she was the prettiest girl in town. Now, if that's not kind of like, watch out, you can go from the prettiest girl in town to this Sideshow freak of a human, you better be terrified of becoming fat by getting fatter, because you're going to end up like that. And it's not even going to estate, the prettiest girl in town. The next scene, so I'm going to show every I'm gonna tell you every scene that she's in the next scene is they're having spaghetti for dinner. Remember that spaghetti thing we'll talk about and again in a little bit. And so two scenes that she's in already, both she's eating Johnny Depp lifts up a little kid to gawk at MAMA as she's been handed and not at another plate of food, straight after dinner. And then so Johnny Depp is lifting a little kid up and kind of laughing about it. And then the handy person is like, Hey, that's not very kind and he's like, well over. The next scene with her is at the dinner table. They're talking about food. And then Johnny Depp notices that the floor is collapsing from the mum sighs I remember this so clearly thinking I am a my cup making my house collapse from my size. And I must have been, you know, not even 10 years old watching this film. You know that. She is so big that the house is collapsing under her weight so they go down into the basement and they mama comes back from the toilet and she sits back down in her chair. And it's this huge kind of bang third of her in there. dust falling from the ceiling and you know being like, Oh God, the, the joists of their house are close to collapsing because of her. And it's not like oh

Unknown Speaker 40:16

it's it's really, it's really framed in an in an, in a not a compassionate way. Right. So from there she falls asleep Gilberts, which is Johnny Depp tries to turn off the TV while she's holding the remote. And he tries to slip it out of her hand and like turn it off. And she kind of stirs and wakes up and he's like, Oh, what are you doing? And that was really kind of like, felt like she was this giant, you know, an ogre. And he was the person trying to come in and rescue the princess from his grasp. You know, that's what it felt like, of this. Don't wake them, because then they're going to rearrange because all that people are interested in is watching. Talk Show TV. Next scene with her is watching a movie and she has popcorn. So so far, in almost every single scene, here she is eating food. And then we have a scene where the Leonardo DiCaprio goes to prison and she goes to she leaves the house and asks to be driven to the police station to get the son out of prison. And so when she walks into the police station, people are gawking. By the way. I remember her being for when I watched this this movie, I remember her being really, really big. And now Now, you know, I paid and watch the movie again. And I was like, what? She's, she's a supersize person. But, you know, not in the sense that in the end of this scene, like pretty much the whole town gathers to look at her. And you know, I This is set in you know, this is in the 90s and small communities and maybe you know, and obviously pick fat people that does happen that, that gawking does happen, but the framing of her fatness is is exaggerated, right. So, as she leaves the the police station in the town, people are gathering to witness and the children are laughing at the sight of a fat body. One man takes a picture. And then and so so there's the kind of like the real lived reality of even though it's overdone. Of, of what it's like to be a fat person and the mum is is has a nice personality, right? The mum is seen as loving and kind and that type of stuff. And so you see that, that kind of empathy, we're walking in the same shoes as mama, as she is being humiliated by the townspeople, then the next shot, they couldn't help themselves. The next shot is the car driving down the road heavily tilting to one side. And so it see oh, we're telling such an empathetic story and we really love mama and then it's then you're making the joke out of the filmmaker is making a joke out of mama by showing that. Oh, well look at how fat she is in the car that it's it's tilting, tilting to one side. They could have just shown mama in the car without the tilting because the tilting was the mocking so the next scene is dinner, the sister throws a potato with a kid looking through the window the same kids as before. And Gilbert laughs because he thinks it's hilarious. A lot of love has his mum. And then we see a scene where she's doing crafts for Leonardo DiCaprio his birthday, and that's the only time that until this point that we have seen that she's not eating apart from the policing, right? It's not around eating so the movie ends with it says it's Arnie's birthday de Leonardo DiCaprio is at his birthday. And she meets Johnny Depp's new girlfriend, she apologizes for her appearance. I haven't always been like this. And she then walks up to the stairs into bed and she doesn't doesn't walk up the stairs normally but she walks up to stairs. She goes to bed and then she dies. She is so young in this movie, she must be 3035 The coroner comes and says we're going to need to The moment Gilbert says it's gonna take a crane to get her out of here. What do you watch this movie as a kid? I was like that is legitimate. They are going to need to take a crane to get her out now I'm like no, it would have taken three people put her in a dolly with some wheels. Take her down the stairs through the front door. How does she get through the front door when she left to get the son from prison from jail? Say why? You know, like if I might I was like yeah when I was a kid Yeah, well how you know 100 men couldn't lift a woman that size and I mean no, and that get no we're gonna need a crane to take the roof of the house to get her out talk about dehumanizing Johnny Depp's finally says I'm not gonna let her be a joke and decided to take everything out the house and then burn the house with her in it and that was so that the crowd didn't see the shame of mama. And theoretically that's what mama would have preferred but what mama have preferred that them to burn down their family home so they have nowhere to live. That she has no resting place she doesn't have like a grave or a or a ceremony or funeral or anything they just burn the house with her in it is that would that may have been our wishes.

Unknown Speaker 46:36

So yeah, even though that even though that film was I was like That is such a good for film. It's so compassionate towards that people. It's not it's that fake compassion of, you know, oh, look, this is why oh, look at this. Look at this fat person. She's fat. And by the way, the story is that her husband had died by suicide a number of years earlier and and she has mental health issues because of that. And we don't know why she has she's living in a bigger body because apparently she used to be a beauty queen in the show a picture of her and she was she was straight sized. So I don't know if they're insinuating that grief makes someone fat, which is which is another trope, which is the same in the whale is that grief makes people fat. And that fatness is a sign of mental illness. When there is you know, that could be the case but there are hundreds of reasons why people are fat and it's just a way that human beings are fatness is just a normal way for human beings to be. So in both of those films, they're framing fatness as a mental health condition and we're being compassionate towards them because it was a an in the whale the the Brendan Fraser's boyfriend dies by suicide too. So yeah. By the way, the the actor who plays mama wasn't wearing a fat suit was a real life. Super, super fat, human and the director saw her on I don't know some talk show Sally, Jessy Raphael or something like that. And you know, Mama dies in it. And she's like, I don't know. 3040 plus 40 Max, and there's no kind of like, why did she die? What the heck? It was just like, Oh, she's dead, obviously, because she's fat. The real actor live to 69. So I'm like, Yeah, so I mean, you knows that everyone who was who was like, You're gonna die any second. So the other movies I want to talk about is seven. And so seven is a crime, horror, thriller type show. Movie, Brad Pitt's Morgan Freeman, they're detectives. And there's a murderer who is killing people because they have committed a sin. One of the seven deadly sins so there's like sloth and wrath and pride. And Gluttony is one of them. And so we have a scene where they are some one of the first steps the first murder I think in the in the show, and they go to a suspected murderer. And so they go into a house which is, you know, seemingly filthy, a squalid apartment. Maybe he was a hoarder, it's dark, you can't really see but it was very unpleasant. And he had stacks of spaghetti sauce cans in the kitchen, the guy. He had two TVs on one on top of the other one playing a torch No, surprise, surprise and he has died because he's eaten spaghetti. So his face was down facedown in some spaghetti. Same thing that Mama was eating spaghetti. I don't know what it is like I always find it interesting the things that people think are unhealthy, you know or think is a fat person food. And like for me, it's we get you, polonaise was always kind of like a boring, you know, Tuesday night dinner type thing, like, we're getting was never seen as this. Who, you know, we shouldn't be eating this food. And so I've never perceived it as that. And I've never been very drawn to spaghetti because luckily, that's one of the things that I wasn't told was, quote unquote, unhealthy. But it's really interesting to see other people's perception of what is unhealthy or bad. Yeah, and so in these two examples is spaghetti. By the way, spaghetti is not bad. It's great. We get you. Polonaise is a really good meal and it has all of the things that we need in there. It's got vegetables, we've got carbs and protein and, and fat and it's it's a good meal. So anyway, so the the seven like a quote of what this thing is a, they say is a morbidly Oh, shut in, in a roach infested hovel, he dies of internal hemorrhaging after the killer force feeds him until he bursts so the idea is that the killer has gone there and taken the thing that he has he eats which was because he had that loads of cans of spaghetti sauce that he potentially hoarded and so makes him eat the thing that he's already eating because he's so greedy and gluttonous. And and so he needs to die. The actor Bob Mack was 480 pounds, but was also wearing extra processive prosthetics AKA a fat suit to make him bigger. You know that there's a really there's a scene where you know they they approach him it's the first sight of his body and the you know, he's huge back with the tiny che was it was very cartoon like, you know, this depiction of fatness and really making him look as gargantuan as possible. I mean it's a thriller and they really are making this body look as horrifying as possible. And then we go to an autopsy scene no dignity is given to the man and the first thing that Brad Pitt says is how the how'd that fat foot ever get out the door? Morgan Freeman replies please It's obvious he was a shut him I mean it's fatphobia and ableism in one ad and yeah, so that the idea of the same thing the quote shutting fat person watching reality TV eating tons of food dirty place the only things that they get up to is eating food watching reality TV masturbating you know these things there's no kind of there's no personality to these these characters. And then obviously framing that watching watching reality TV or talk shows and and masturbating and eating food or bad things. I mean, that sounds like a really fucking good Friday evening to me. But attributing to those two like characteristics of a fat person which is not helpful is not helpful. In in further understanding fatness so yeah, I asked I asked my audience you know what other shows like this that or movies and, and a lot of people said shallow, how shallow how used to be one of my favorite films. And that goes to show how fat phobic I was other people said friends Pitch Perfect love Atul actually the Nutty Professor Norbit. Yeah, lots of lots I mean, if you go back into film and TV archives of fatness your nine out of 10 that's going to be portrayed as comic relief. something disgusting something sad very rarely is it going to be joyful and not about their way you know shallow How was just egregious and that a Black Jack Black was in there that's what I was like I love Jack Black Why the fuck did you have to do that that below makes me yeah makes me not like him and wish I wish he'd I don't know if he has ever but come out and said hey that film was fucked up I should never have done that. And it's worth thinking about that the the idea of fat suits right and why they're problematic. So I'm going to read a couple of things. So here's a quote from a nylon piece.

Unknown Speaker 56:04

So in September, American Crime Story impeachment star Sarah Paulson expressed her regret for wearing a fat suit for her portrayal of former civil servant livet. Linda trap trip. It's very hard for me to talk about this without feeling like I'm making excuses. She told the LA Times I think that phobia is real, I think pretending otherwise causes further harm. And it's very important conversation to be had, which was great that Sarah Paulson said that, but it would have been even greater if she had let the roll go to someone who was fine. And other thing about the whale is that the director said we could not cast someone who was 600 pounds in the film because they would not be able to do it. They would not be able to handle filming because apparently everyone who has 600 pounds is not there's no 600 pound people out there who are not incredibly talented actors and well able to to go to work, live live do normal everyday activities. And even if they needed accommodations. The the toll that wearing that fat suit had on Brendan Fraser he apparently had to sit with two bags of ice underneath his fat suit, it would take 10 hours to get him into the fat suit and was deeply uncomfortable. He was really really hot. It was just awful experience for him. And think about those accommodations and those things that they were doing to make Brendan Fraser look fat when they go they're just a higher fat actor. And then oh, maybe we would have to you know, tweak something here and there. But no, no. Hey, no one who can do it is what the director says which is another sign of the directors deep misunderstanding of fat people and and the lives of super fat people. Because he thinks that every fat person is like Charlie, or super every super fat person is you know, masturbating and eating food and doesn't leave their apartment, you know? And it hey, if that's the if that's what if someone's life is and that's, that's fine as well, right? But Darren cannot see that that is a trope. Okay, so continuing Aubrey Gordon have your fat friend explained it best in a 2018 article pegged to Netflix insatiable series like water on stone. Those narratives chip away at our collective ability to see fat people as fully human. People who get married, get divorced, make mistakes, have regrets, overcome barriers triumph and suffer. When we don't see those stories we forget they are real even when they're happening everyday in the lives of our fat partners, neighbors, friends and family. Overwhelmingly fat people and people with eating disorders. We're clear fat suits fat suit narratives in salt, fat people present harmful images of us and trigger relapses in eating disorders. Those points by and large weren't disputed by anyone but many responses sought to defend specific projects that you had used fat suits and largely their defenders weren't fat themselves. Yeah, so fat suits are dehumanizing. And I mean, there is the there's a there's a difference between someone who is fat Monica from friends where the fat suit was, was a comic device saying like, Oh God, look how bad she used to be an lol fatness to serve and a and also there's the portrayal of it in dramas and And it not necessarily being a comedy device. And I feel like that that's less harmful but still really fucking harmful because, you know, there might be like, well, there's no factors to play these roles. And it's because there's no for actors because then actors keep taking the rolls of fat actors and then putting on a really shit prosthetic suit. Black, black to all of that.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:33

Um,

Unknown Speaker 1:00:34

so yeah, I hope you don't go and see the whale. I mean, do what you want. But I think you know, if you're a fat person, it will probably deepen any fatphobia that you are working to overcome, because we are all fat phobic. If you're a straight size person, go and give them money that you would spend on a cinema ticket to a fat rights organization like Nafa and a FA or as the A S D H. I mean, maybe you want to go and watch it for research purposes. And, you know, whatever, but still is harmful to us example to everyone. I think it's had a limited release a few days ago, and it's it's on full release 21st of December. If we can vote with our feet, that would be great. But you know, I think a lot of a lot of thin people will probably really want to see it because I know when I was deep in fatphobia I'd be watching shows like The Biggest Loser and using that to make myself feel better about myself. At least I'm not like them. You know? And then think I think thinking I understood their lives because they were portrayed on a TV show which is 100% real and not edited out.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:07

Um

Unknown Speaker 1:02:14

yeah, so thanks for hanging out with me today. Links for everything that I spoke about in the show notes. Remember, if you want to come to the Dominican Republic with me, come here be fun. See you in the next episode. Okay, see you later. Crocodile stay face buddy.

Episode 150 Transcript

Read the transcript alongside the audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 150. When people in your life are anti-fat and pro-diet. I'm Vinny Welsby, your host. Let's do it.

Hey, how are ya? I realized I almost never introduced myself. I'm Vinny My pronouns are they them? I am a smelly British person, British Irish person living in Canada in Vancouver, which is the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Coast Salish peoples, Squamish, slaver tooth and Musqueam nation forms. Welcome to the show if you're new here, and if you're not new here, welcome back. So good to see ya. How you doing what's going on. This week, Spotify had released its you know, the rap thing. And if you are a podcaster, they will give you your podcast stats, I can see my stats anyway on a different program, which releases it to all the platforms. But then Spotify put it in pretty graphics means more because it's in pretty, pretty graphics. Well, I just wanted to shout out the top 10 countries that people listen to the show from so we're top 10 We've got the United States. Yes, United Kingdom. Thank you, Canada. Yeah, Australia, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, New Zealand, Finland and Norway. We're trying to so interesting. I'm like, Who is listening in Sweden or the Netherlands? Or Norway or Finland? How do they know about me? How do you know about me like US, UK and Canada. I feel like you know, I've that's my general region. Right? And then other folks. Hi, how did you find me? Hey, hey. And first of all, your podcast is in the top 10% shared globally, and you're not in the top 2% global rank for popular podcasts. I'm in the top 2%. Wow, and I just I checked also checked out recent reviews and I do want to read out a few one of them is a one star review. Okay, so five stars informative. This is a review of the show. If you want informative well research information on how to be a fat ally or on how to set boundaries as a fat person Vinnie is a perfect choice. They are entertaining, empathetic and sensitive, funny, and they do their homework. I also love the regularity of new episodes. Thank you very much. And that is from someone in Ireland. Oh, Ireland is not in the top 10 Come on Ireland on five stars fat positive podcast at its best. empathetic, knowledgeable, hilarious. You get all this and more when you listen to Vinny Welsby. I am in love. On that's from that's from Germany. Five stars. This pod is awesome in capital letters. Videos podcast is a must for anyone who needs some fatty love and also for tons of well researched education around fatness and all the issues that intersect with it. Their style is so fun, but also sensitive and compassionate. Listen, listen, listen with four exclamation points. And that's Great Britain. Thank you so much. Honestly, it makes me feel so good reading those and you know what, what makes me feel really, really good, is the empathetic and compassionate stuff. I'm like, Yes, I really appreciate that. And then like the ego mean, when you say that I'm funny. I'm like not everyone agrees though one star tried really hard, they say tried really hard to enjoy this and learn but just completely completely misses the mark on a lot of things including contradictions within the same episode to support the point of the moment. Also, all of the constant singing and shouting makes it hard to listen with headphones be warned. And that was from Great Britain boo boo it is. And you know, that review I was like, you know, had I like a moment a moment of I'm too loud and sing too much. And you know what, you know with a singing thing. I don't know if I probably have mentioned this before. So I go to choir but also, I started going to like singing groups because I was so all my life. I felt like I had to be quiet because growing up. My dad couldn't tolerate any type of noise in the house. And so things like singing prohibited obviously, and I wasn't He's very, very shy, which people are very surprised with. But I was I was really, really shy. And so even if I wanted to sing, there was no way I was going to and I did want to sing but so using my voice and singing and being loud is a very hard one battle for me. And I'm not always loud. You know, sometimes I might laugh and shout or whatever, but I think that's just a normal human thing, right? And the singing thing, listen, that's just me. Some people won't like it. Some people will like it. Some people will be indifferent. Some people believe it. Yeah, they're having fun, who cares? Other people might be like, I wish they didn't sing, but whatever. And also this week, because this is quite kind of timely this week at my choir every week, one person gets to stand up in the in the break and and sing a song if they want. And so the choir is about maybe 100 100 250 people? I don't know, actually. Anyway, and it was my turn this week. And yeah, and I sang Oompah power from Oliver the musical and got people to join in and we had a good old knees up. And so had a little bit of kind of like a vulnerability thing from that. And then I saw the the pay singing is harder lesson because I sang and I was like, oh, but then I remembered that I'm, I'm first phase. So yeah. Anyway, thank you very much. All those reviews. Thank you for listening in for this year. Apparently, we I've got like 87% of the listeners this year on new listeners. So hello, if you started watching the show, or listening to the show this year, you can always find a video of the show on YouTube, if you ever want to watch it because I record the video, just for the I don't know, for the couple of 100 people that watch it on YouTube. And also, there's transcripts for every single episode. I think we've done it now we've gone we went back and we did it for every single episode. And so that's complete. Now that project. So if you ever want to go to the transcript, just go to the show notes. And then you can find the specific show notes for whatever episode it is by going to face fatty.com forward slash 150 For this episode, or forget that first fatty.com forward slash pod cast quick update on the vacation to Dominican Republic. We have six earlybird tickets left. And so if you want to get on the early bird train and get $100 discount, go to the show notes and click on the details about Dominican Republic vacation. If you forget where they are, you can always go to my Instagram. And there's a link in my bio. Basically, we're going for five days to the Dr. It's a fat positive vacation. accessible for those with limited mobility and disabilities. is going to be fucking amazing. So anyway, thought I'd give you some fierce fatty news or not first fatty news, but fatty news or just scandal news. A listener or a follower? sent me an article they're in Germany. Hey, Germany, they're in Germany. Just tell you that I dated a German guy. Recently this year. He was cool. He was like really forward thinking. And he says yeah, Germany is Germany is pretty forward thinking when it comes to a lot of things. Not so much on the fat stuff. Anyway, so here's a new story out of Germany, Tinder ad with Paul Ripka. Think that's how you say his name. weightwatchers responds to criticism. So this is what happened. There's this famous guy called Paul Ripka. And what Weight Watchers did is they partnered with this guy, Paul. And apparently Paul didn't realize what they were actually doing, allegedly. But what they were doing is they were advertising on Tinder. And so Paul, Paul, Paul's profile will come up. And the profile would say, quote, I'm in the mood for a change. And I like to try new recipes. Are you also in the mood for healthy habits, then let's cook together. And so you know, it's like a, he says that he introduces himself as a budding Master Chef, photographer and podcaster All right, and then he says, I like eating food. Do you want to Let's cook together. Okay. And then those who swipe Yes, on him, would then get the message. I've been around for a long time and have finally found myself and my center. Are you also longing for inspiration and support on your journey to more to more balance and a healthy lifestyle? So Sign up for Weight Watchers now and get a taste for new habits. Apparently this only went to fat people

Unknown Speaker 10:12

rip key apologized last Sunday after several social media accounts drew attention to the advert. He says of course, the advertising was was declared as such a not only fat women were addressed, he explained. Nevertheless, all the advertising that Weight Watchers did was a stupid idea. He said, The only relevant thing is how users felt about it. This is translate, okay, I'm on a German website, by the way. And this is translated with Google Translate. And so I think some of the words might be a little bit off. So. So it was not making sense. And apparently, he immediately was like, take this down. And so they did. But imagine that you're like, Oh, hey, Paul. You know, he's like, this foot you're on. We're all guy looks pretty cute. It's got a little bit of chub on him is cute. Like, I mean, I, you know, I don't know about who he is. His personality might be raging, right wing weirdo. And if that's the case, then he's not cute. But you know? And you're like, Oh, I'm gonna do some cocaine with calm. And then it's like, Hey, Fatty, go to weightwatchers Oh, Lord, that's fucked up. So anyway, I thought that was interesting. Let you know about that. So let's talk about what we're talking about today. And what we're talking about today is other human beings. Oh, it's so hard to communicate. Oh, communication, I feel like you know, if I could have a superpower, I've got this diary. It's a five year diary. And then they ask you a question a day, one of the questions is, if you could have, or if you could be an expert at something or have a superpower or whatever. And I almost always answer that question. I've done it for three years, I wish I could be the best communicator. Because communication is so hard. And when you are, and being a good communicator is such a skill, right? That's such a skill. Skill as in, it takes time to master. And yeah, and I think you know, what, with the podcast thing with the people saying that I'm compassionate, is that that's, that's a really big compliment for me, because my communication skills used to be when I was younger, or very angry, and not compassionate, because I was not compassionate towards myself. Yeah, so communication skills, I think is, is a really awesome thing to keep, keep trying apps. And yeah, I'm always I'm always thinking about this and thinking about folks who are newer in their anti diet or fat positive journey, and what that looks like for people. And what that looks like for a lot of people is because most of their lives if you are new to this, and if you are, in in the world of now, you know, Health at Every Size, or intuitive eating or fat positivity or body, body, whatever. Most of your life, theoretically, you have been pro diet, anti fat, and those around you have known you as this personality. And so when we make the change to a different ideology, which is liberatory, which is sometimes against the grain for a lot of people, those in your life can have problems with it. And the other thing is, you'll start to realize how anti fatness and diet culture is everywhere. Oh my goodness, it's everywhere. It's everywhere, right? And a lot of people say that to me, and I'm like, oh my god, Vinny. Like what the hell? I'd rather let's put these glasses back on where I call it see all this shit, because it's fucking everywhere, and it can be really exhausting. And and it's kind of like, well, where do we pick our battles? Are we going to be you know, 20 times a day being like, Hey, by the way, don't say that. That's anti fat or, you know, not watching any TV not consuming any any content any going online, you know, just walking around the world, just, you know, fingers in our ears type of thing is that's impossible, right? But there are times that we do need to deal with other people who are in diet, diet land, or who are, you know, anti fat because we've realized it really is an issue for us. And when I talk to people in coaching and and I we talk about the kind of barriers to their success of loving themselves or you know, getting on with intuitive eating or whatever it is, very often will have. Oh my mum, or my mother in law, or my sister or my friend or people at work or on diets talk shit about fatness that a lot of times they don't talk about shit about the person's fatness. So that you know, the person I'm talking to the talk shit about fatness in general and their own body. And often, the people are not fat, right. And so it's kind of more difficult. Because if someone is like, hey, you know, you're fat, and I don't like you, because you're fat. It's just, that's a lot easier to say. Okay, that's not gonna be so good for my mental health. And it's more clear on what to do, right? And what to do is be like, set a boundary, you remove them from your life, whatever it is, it feels good for you. But when there's more nuance it can be like, What do I do here? And I've asked followers on Instagram to give me your situations, your questions on what to do with certain situations, right? You know, what you're dealing with right now. So I can give specific examples of what to do. But I want to go over first a couple of strategies that I that I teach, and talk about boundaries and don't general right. And so with this, we've got two strategies, boundaries, or remove, reduce protect, which is what I talk about all the time how to protect yourself from fat phobia is removed, reduced protect. So the gold standard is, can you remove fat phobia from your life? So can you get rid of the most triggering aspects of fat phobia? Examples? unfollowing, fat phobic folks on social media and harmful relationships, stop watching that really fat phobic show with only normative bodies, etc. And so remove is like, can we remove that phobia? Great, then, you know, perfect is it's removed from your life. That's not always possible, right. And with boundaries, what we're doing with boundaries is trying to remove or reduce, right, reduce the exposure, remove their exposure, have a boundary, don't talk to me about that being terrible. And if they do, then there's a consequence, and the consequence could be reducing time with them. It could be removing them from your life temporarily or full time. Okay, so reduce is if you're not able to remove for whatever reason, say, for example, it's your parents and your and you are your carers of your parents. And so you can't, you know, you have decided that it's not appropriate for you to remove them from your life because you're the carers. And that's not something you want to do, that's absolutely fine. Or for whatever reason, it doesn't need to be as dramatic as your their carers, but for whatever reason, there's a power imbalance, whatever you can reduce, if possible, can you reduce the amount of time that you're exposed to fat phobia. So an example of this could be spending less time with fat phobic people only watching one hour of that fat per phobic show instead of three. And finally protect so if you can't reduce or remove, then you can potentially protect yourself. And what that looks like is after spending time with fat phobic fat folks engage in self care, spend time reviewing fat positive resources to feel good put headphones in, say if you're at work, and people are talking about diet stuff, or leave the room during during diet talk. So they are three ways we can tackle protecting ourselves from fat phobia. And those things can mean that you're going to have to, you know, communicate with people about this topic. And some of them, maybe not, right, you know, if you're protecting yourself, if people are talking about fatphobia at work, or you know how they love going on diets or whatever. You're removing yourself from the situation or putting headphones in, you know, that's protecting yourself and I want to kind of note here is that whatever you is accessible to you. Is a Okay, right. I don't want folks feeling like oh, you know, I could have I wish I knew what I was what to say or I wish

Unknown Speaker 19:52

I had the perfect Zinger to stop people in their tracks, tracks. You know, that's cool. kind of expecting maybe at this stage, you know, it's unrealistic. And it's, it's probably not helpful for you to expect that you're able to go into battle when you're kind of just kind of finding your feet in this area. So if you're, if you're newer to this, you're maybe you're finding your feet. And even if you've been doing this stuff longer, you might also not be used to communicating your feelings and thoughts. And also, even if you if you are used to, this is like, potentially high stakes business, right? You know, you're sitting around the lunch table with your colleagues, and they're like, Oh, my God, I love cucumbers up the bum. And if you say, Hey, by the way, that's not cool. You know, what are the consequences, you could lose relationships, you could lose your job, you could be ostracized, you could, you know. And so, there's many reasons why this stuff is difficult. And if you choose you want to do something or say something, then that's great. And if you want to and stumble in the moment, that's normal, you know, because when we are confronted with this stuff, our bodies are probably having a reaction. And the reaction could be that your heart is beating faster, perhaps you're breathing quicker, because your heart is beating faster, and your body is like we are in danger. And your brain is not thinking, right? Okay, let's go into the back catalogue of all the research, I know about fatness and Health at Every Size and intuitive in eating and let's come up with a real perfectly well formed sentence, your brain is like, we're in danger, get out of here, just, you know. So you're not in the best stead, is what I'm saying. But saying all that it's a practice, right to practice, practice. And I want to give you some ideas. So with boundaries, not everyone can set boundaries, nor is it always appropriate, you know, I'm talking about the power imbalance, if you're not safe, for whatever reason, it might not be appropriate for you, there could be you know, that power imbalance as your boss. So if you're in a relationship where that person has more power, say, they are the one who earns money, and by disagreeing with them, you know, that they're volatile. And so it's not maybe appropriate in that circumstance. And there's lots of others too. And the other thing is, people have known you potentially, for years, as someone who loves a little bit of diet or, and so it's gonna take time for people to get used to you having new rules and guidelines in your life. Because hopefully, this is going to be a lifelong journey, right? And maybe in the past, you've gone on diets, and it's been a kind of, you do it and you're excited, and then the diet fails, and then you're less excited. And then maybe there's a new diet, and you're excited, and it fails. And so so maybe people are used to you having kind of new things that you're excited about, and maybe they're not taking it seriously that this new thing that you're excited about is something that's going to be for the rest of your life. And so then maybe they're not taking your boundaries as seriously because of that, but we need to help folks understand that no, we are serious about this and it's forever and the way that we do that is with our words and our actions. So my favorite way to get people to stop talking about things that I you know, diets or anti fatness in front of me that my favorite piece of advice is, Hey, friend, family member person, I love person I care about. I don't know if you notice, but I've actually started learning about intuitive eating, anti fatness, whatever. And I've recognized that when people talk about diets, anti fatness, whatever, that it's, it can be a trigger for me. And so I'm wondering if I can have your help with something. Sometimes, you know, starting with, I'm wondering if I can have your help with something. You know, people who love us are like, yes, I'd love to help you with something. Can you avoid talking about XYZ? Or can you not talk about XYZ while I'm around? Now that's one way that we can do it making it about ourselves. And the way the way the reason why I like this is because when we're asking someone to change behavior, Avior it can be very difficult for them because they might hear, you're a bad person, you've hurt me, You've ruined my life, your fault, you're responsible for the way that I feel about myself, right? And, and then that can be difficult for them to listen and hear and understand what's going on. Which is, you know, them problem. But for me, when I'm framing it about me and the fact that I want to achieve this goal, and I'm wondering if they can help me achieve this goal, it's not about how they have fucked up. It's about what I've noticed me, and what makes it difficult for me to love and accept myself. Now, people might might be like, you know, fuck you, blah, blah, blah, oh, you might find that, that that's disempowering for you to say, you know, hey, I've got, I'd like you to help me with something. And that's okay, too. You can say something else, right? And so whatever words used to describe to say to that person, can you stop talking about this thing? And they say, yes, they say, Oh, I'll try. They'll say, no. That is great information for you, whatever they say, is information on what you are going to do next. If they say no, okay, well, we know where we stand. And, you know, for me, it would be unfortunately, I can't continue this relationship with you, or unfortunately, I can't see you as much or, unfortunately, I'm going to have to cut you off if you do start talking about it, or whatever. Depending on what type of relationship you have. If they say, I'll try, but it'll be so hard, then you can have a conversation of, okay, well, what would be helpful for when you do slip up for me to say, and so you've already got that kind of pre pre agreed of, you know, that you're gonna say, Oh, don't forget, we talked about this or whatever? And if they say, yes, great, I might also have that conversation too. Because if they say, yes, they're probably good, you know, they're a human being, they're probably gonna forget, right? And then when they do then forget and say something, which is unlikely, unlikely thing to happen, you can decide kind of like, what amount of tolerance Do you want to give? We don't want to be the thing is here, we we need to have a level of, of standing our ground, right. And that is where boundaries fall apart, is that there is no standing of ground when someone says that it will. So this is what happens if someone says, Yeah, I've set boundaries. I've told my my mum not to talk about my body, but she keeps doing it. And then I say, okay, so what do you do when she does keep doing it? Nothing. And then I'm like, Ah, okay, and it's inappropriate that your mom still talks about your body. But also, this is kind of like a new education thing for for your mom, you know, your mom's known you as this person and known how to talk to you for X amount of years. And so we need to then be reinforcing our new boundary by saying, Hey, you remember I said about this or by doing whatever could be that you're going to leave the room, it could be that you're going to end the conversation, it could be that you're going to decide not to talk to them for an X X amount of weeks. It could be that you end the relationship, whatever it is, that feels good for you, you know, but if we're not following it up with something, then that is where we're going to fail. Right? Because you're serious about this right you are serious about this. This is not acceptable. And we have to keep helping people understand that it is not acceptable by how we react when they mess up which they probably will because they are a human being so in my life I've set boundaries and it was very difficult for me because I was slash am probably still a massive people pleaser and terrified terrified to to say anything to state my needs because I thought people would just you know, flip a table and be like, Fuck you, you're dead to me. You know, even if it was like, Hey, can you take your shoes off at the door? Never like what? take my shoes off. That would just be way too high stakes. And so you know, I couldn't go in with a Um, hey, here's these big huge boundaries with big important people in my life, I had to go in with, you know, the easier things like, Hey, do you think that you could take your shoes off?

Unknown Speaker 30:11

You know, whatever it is. And you know what, it made me a better better friend, because instead of being, you know, seething, that my friend is in my house wearing shoes and being like, so mad about a, you know, it could just be nipped in the bud. And you know, and it gives them access to having a better relationship with me, because I'm not secretly, you know, mad at them for something that could be corrected so easily. But it was still hard, right, because of what I've learned about, you know, about that this stuff growing up, we didn't have boundaries. So in my life, I, almost everyone has had a good reaction when I set boundaries. One of my siblings refused to honor a boundary, a very kind of simple boundary. And unfortunately, I had to end a relationship with her. And because we're at the same state, it's been, I guess, a number of years now would be like, three years or something, that I haven't had a relationship with her. And that feels really good for me, right? That's like a long time coming of like many years of therapy to get to that point, right? And set boundaries with her. And then when she just was like, no, no, I'm not going to do that. And I know, but you basically I was like, oh, okay, well, that's a great information for me about the type of person she is and what type of relationship she wants, she wants a relationship, which doesn't have boundaries, or, or, you know, not being able to respect or try and understand me. And so, you know, that means that I can't have a relationship with her. And my life, because of that has improved, not having a relationship, and I'm able to offer her in my brain more compassion, for understanding where she might be at, versus before, I was just constantly angry with her. So, yeah, so let's move to so what the reason why I'm telling you those stories is probably most people are going to have either a neutral or good reaction, right? Depending how the way you say, if you're like, listen up here, motherfuckers you're all pieces of shit and ruined my life, and I hate you, and you better not say this, or I'm gonna punch you in the face or whatever, then maybe they might have a good reaction. And it's fine. If you feel like that, you know, that's absolutely to be, you know, understandable, because sometimes these people have really fucked with our lives, and are the cause of these issues that we're dealing with. And you don't have to do anything. You know, be kind to people who have been unkind to you. But, you know, normally speaking, if we're having conversations, which are, are nuanced, and, you know, trying to be big, be kind and respectful to each other, then these types of conversations tend to tend to go okay, or good, and sometimes they might not, and that's okay, too. That doesn't mean what you're asking, Is this awful, terrible thing and that you're unreasonable? You know, that, you know, we can't we can't draw that conclusion from someone not respecting our boundaries. So here's a question from a follower on Instagram, who says my partner's mum always mocks his weight and blames me for making him fat with my cooking. He has a history of restricting and fainting due to malnutrition. And I encourage intuitive eating, his mother is fat herself, but says it's only acceptable to be fat when you're 50 Plus, I have told her several times I don't accept her speaking about her son in a demeaning way, but she keeps telling him to lose weight because, quote, he looks so much better. I wonder what to say to someone that clearly does not respect my wishes, not to fat shame and I find it odd why it's common for older fat people to shame on younger fat people. Okay, so you know, when I read that I just felt really like this is straight up bullying and is cruel and is deeply harmful. If from the first sentence blames me for making him fat with my cooking, I mean, that's so sexist, right? So you're making him fat with your cooking like he is this helpless, baby boy and you're his mother Mother responsible for his care. And so you're to blame for him having a body you know, so weird. It's so so it's just the patriarchy right there and As the other thing is, is that he's fainted due to malnutrition. Could your partner be anorexic? The last episode we did on atypical anorexia, Anorexia and fat folks? And that, you know, someone is not eating enough that they faint. That is, I mean, it's could be a sign, right? So you're, you're, I'm saying Mother in law, you didn't say mother in law, I'm just gonna say mother in law to shorten it. Your mother in law could be encouraging an eating disorder. And I'm curious to what does your partner do? Or say, when the mother in law says these things like? Because it sounds like you're standing up for him, but we don't we don't have the information of what he's seeing. Whether he's saying, Yeah, mom cut it out. Or if he's saying nothing, and then when when you get home, he's like, I can't believe my mom said that. Or if he's saying, Yeah, well, you know, how my mom's like, just leave a B. And, you know, you're the one kind of taking on this, this burden. So I'm curious about that. Because, you know, it's, he plays a he, you know, he, it's about him, right? And so, would it be appropriate for you both to come up with consequences? Because I wonder, you know, like, she, you said, we've taught, I've taught her several times, and but she keeps doing it. And so she keeps doing it, because there's no consequence, right? Like, if she wasn't in your life, she couldn't not do it. And I was saying, that's it and the relationship. And, you know, and it's, and again, we need to have a bit of, of nuance, when we're thinking about this. You could be living with them with the with, you know, the mum, you could be dependent on her for for cheaper rent or something, or, or we're not we, you know, we don't know the situation, exactly. And so, would it be appropriate to have consequences, where it's like, we're not going to see you, we're not going to talk to you or whatever. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But I think every time that she's doing it, I think there has to be, this is not acceptable.

Unknown Speaker 37:35

This is not acceptable. Coming up with some type of word track that you just keep saying. And it could be that you're saying, you know, this is not acceptable. Do not comment on his weight. You are engaging in, in, in bullying and in bigotry right now. Whatever it is, it could be that you literally get up from the table and say, I'm sorry, we're not able to be here, while you're talking about why you're shaming Sutton. And walking away. It could be that you, I saw this post where someone says that whenever someone talks about something, why they're done, or if it was wait, but they just come up with a random fact about otters, and they said, Did you know that otters hold hand with hands when they sleep? You know, and so that she learns that is not it not is not going to gain her anything by keep to keep talking about his weight? Because it could be that right now, what she's thinking is, well, if I keep going, they're going to really understand that this is something that's important for me if I keep shaming him, he might become thin you know, there's that that's that you know that she's doing it for a reason some benefit to her. And that benefit could be that the sun she perceives the sun and having a better life, if he is thinner, you know, and I you know, your question of like, why is it that older, fat people shame, younger fat people and I feel like sometimes older fat people can be really deep and fatphobia they've been alive longer they have been around during the peak of, of diet culture and you know, all sorts of stuff, depending on their age, they might have been around where, you know, things like Fen Fen diet pills and all sorts of stuff. Now, we're lucky enough to, you know, in the last 10 years be more exposed to that and sometimes not all older people, but sometimes, some older people are not exposed to those messages and it just seems so you know, quote, everyone knows that being fat is bad. They're not exposed to the other idea of, you know, That's all true. And so because sometimes older folks can be do even fatphobia, they know, they've seen the they've experienced the world that is so deeply anti fat. And the conclusion in their mind is not, Let's rally against fat phobia, it's, let's not be fat. And so in their mind, it might be okay to fat shame and not even might be in this example, it is okay for her in her mind to fat shame, because it might get her the result that she's hoping for, which is the chance that her son will become thin, and therefore in her mind happier, and therefore, safe from fat phobia. And so there's kind of something you know, you know, a plus b equals 25, you know, so it's kind of like, a plus b, that makes sense, you know, but we're targeting the wrong thing. So she's targeting the wrong thing, which is, instead, we should be tackling bigotry and anti fat bias. She's saying we should target fatness and fat people, and probably feels like she's doing a really good thing. Because being fat in this world is difficult, you know, but I mean, shit. It's, there's plenty of fat, older people and thin older people who would recoil at this story and say, well, that's obviously really fucked up. And that's obviously going to drive a wedge in the relationship between you and the sun, and obviously is not going to be successful. So I really don't like this kind of letting people who are older off the hook. Because I mean, it really feels like we're infantilizing older people we're being like, well, they don't know any better. Why not? They have a brain. They are able to be compassionate, you know? Hello. And just because it was, you know, different when they were young, doesn't matter. Other older folks have been able to get it. You know, my my mom, my mom was deep in that stuff, right? She's 71. Now. And she is I mean, if you talk to her, she's so radical. She's got things that she needs to work on. Yeah, like as we all do, but there's no way I would have thought that she would say the things that she does now, you know, it's really beautiful to see. And so even if someone is currently being a beggar, there is hope. But we cannot accept that. And we cannot accept any bigotry, and that is fat phobia. That is racism, that is sexism, that is all of those things, it is not appropriate to just kind of be like, wow, you know, they're older. And you know, this person is not saying that I'm just saying in general. It's just not acceptable and fat phobia is bigotry. It is anti black racism. It is not acceptable. Yeah, so for this one, I really want to know what consequences we have in place. What is happening? And what is the what is your partner doing? Like? Is he involved in this process, because that could be difficult if he's not because you're, you know, one person standing up when the relationship dynamic is between, you know, the Son and the mum. And, and that could cause that there to be barriers, right. And it could mean that your, your boyfriend, your, your partner, sorry, says I don't mind and I'm not going to say anything to mum. And it could mean that you decide, well, I'm not going to go and I'm not going to hang out with with your mom anymore, because it is not appropriate for me to be hearing those things. And I really wish that, you know, you could stand up to her or whatever. The you know, there's so many different scenarios that could be going on here. But really, we need to be laying down those those consequences, whatever they are, whether it's you're saying something, you're changing the subject, you're getting up and walking away, you're spending less time with her, you know, just starts closed there's a real that me and some have made where it's like how to respond to fat folks. And it's a funny thing, like and one of them was I bent over and started you know, making my bum, my bum cheeks move and bid and being like, man, you know, just stupid like you're not going to do that but you could do that. Or just say stop or whatever. You can come up with many different things that you can say and and also Oh, understanding there might be some situation here where doing those things might not be appropriate because there might be some power imbalance. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now, let's move on to our next one, which is my best friend is st sized. And in the past, she and I have engaged in very disordered conversations around food and weight loss. I have recently been trying to reframe my thoughts around my plus size body, and focus on my health, physical and mental rather than my Wait. My friend, however, continues to make comments like, I feel so fat and disgusting today. I finally told her how these comments make me a person who is objectively much larger than her feel terrible. And she has accused me of gaslighting her and making it so she can't say anything about her own feelings, for fear of upsetting me. I want her to be able to express herself to me, and I'm trying to find a middle ground help.

Unknown Speaker 46:06

Yeah, so first off, this is this is, you know, kind of like what we've been talking about. We in the past, you have engaged in disordered conversations. Right. And so, so this is kind of like growing pains. And you say you've recently been trying to. And so this is, you know, it's a recent thing. And so this is kind of growing pains. And so we're going to have to help her and you know, understand for you as well, what is okay and what is not okay, and I would love to pick your friend's brain about you know, shoot her saying that the you are gaslighting her. And when I read that I was like, Okay, what I suspect is happening for her. Obviously, I don't know, I'm not talking to her. What I suspect is she's hearing something that you're not saying, I suspect she's hearing something like, Hey, friend, you can never feel bad about your body because my body is bigger. Which invalidates her feelings. And I'm sure that's not what you set. But you know, us humans are so good at making it about ourselves, right, making us to blame because if we are the fall, and we are bad than we can fix it, right? And so, you know, especially if you're bringing in say, hey, when you say this, this makes me feel bad. She's wondering, she's probably gonna get defensive and kind of maybe misunderstand what you're saying. And what we're trying to say here is that talking about fat as a negative, is difficult to hear, especially from people who are smaller, as it contributes to the idea that your body is particularly bad, because it's bigger. Even though your friend isn't saying that she's saying about her, she still is framing fatness as a negative, it might be appropriate for your friend to say, I'm really struggling with my body image today. And I'm sure that that sounds a lot better, right? If your friend said, Hey, I'm really struggling with my body image today. But she's not she's saying I feel fat, and disgusting. Therefore, fat is disgusting. And saying that as someone who is living in a privilege privilege body. And the reason why that's inappropriate, aside from aligning fat with disgusting, is that it raises your experience of living in a bigger body and the very real stigmatization and marginalization that you experience, because of your body size, right? Everyone can have the potential for having terrible body image for hating themselves, no matter their size. But the difference is, it's only people who have marginalized bodies and in this example, a fat body that experiences systemic oppression when they go out into the world, so a straight size person is not going to have to also deal with feeling shit so because anyone can feel shamed about their body, but also then not be able to buy clothes. You know, but also then have the doctor say yeah, you are too fat, you need to lose weight, but also then not be able to find a date because only 25% of sis hat men would date a fat sis hat woman. So it's like this added layer and and we're not talking about like, oh, straight sides. People don't have their bad side. Straight size people can struggle so much with body image, it could be deadly for them. And I think maybe when your friend said, I feel like you're gaslighting me, that could be maybe what she's feeling of you don't understand how hard this is for me. And we want to understand that it is body image stuff is devastating. And we can be less black and white with our thinking about it. We can think okay, well then how does it affect others if I am talking negatively about their marginalized identity? You know, because I feel like your friend would be able to understand that that difference between you saying that her saying that fat is bad and you saying hey, don't say that fat is bad. So I think if we were to have the conversation with her about power and privilege, and fat politics, that could be helpful. And acknowledging that struggling with body image issues is a very real battle for many, many people and can be very painful. But the difference is that fat people also have to deal with the very real lived reality being in a bigger body in a society that villainize is fatness. So, again, you can make it about you and not about her not that she's, you know, we can say, hey, I want your help. And the thing is, she needs to get used to this new language that you're speaking. She needs to get used to the idea that anti fatness is never acceptable. I mean, if I if I was friends with her, and she said, I feel so fat, and disgusting. And I was friends with her and say, I didn't do this job. Immediately. I be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's going on? What do you mean, you feel so fat and disgusting? Hello, I'm a fat person. And what does that mean? What you think about my body? And then she's, I don't know, I think you look weird. But, you know, you know, that, that, you know, if they suddenly got my body, they'd be like, Oh, I'm so fat, you know? So and it is about them, right? It is about them, you know, and then how they feel but really, they're less throwing you under the bus in the process of trying to express themselves. So I would if that happened to me, I'd say hey, you know what, when you say you feel fat, using fat as a feeling word is not appropriate because you are in sin you insinuating that fatness is bad. And that fatness is disgusting. And then it's not appropriate, because we were out here trying to be you know, when we don't do anti fat anymore, that's like really 2013. So, I'd love to hear about how you're struggling with body image issues. But or you can say you know what, I don't want to hear about your stroke you struggling with body image issues because I'm not in that place right now where I can hear it because you live in a bit in a smaller body. It can be very difficult for a fat person to hear a straight size person say that they think that an attractive when society says that they are attractive, when you are experiencing so much shit because of the body that you're living in. And so some fat people do say to their straight size friends, I love you. But unfortunately, because of where I am at with my body image journey, and because I don't have the spoons, okay, the mental energy, I cannot talk to you about body image. I support you, I really wish that you the very best on your journey. But that's just one thing that I find very difficult to talk about because of the privilege imbalance in this relationship. The privilege the body size privilege, and that is okay, too. I mean, it's pretty it's I mean, it is obnoxious to be in a thin body complaining about how fat you are to it to a fat person. I mean, it's pretty cringy right. But it's so normal. We mean, we've probably all done it. We probably still do it today, you know, like it's so normal, but it shouldn't be and by the way, you know, I was saying hey, well we're whoa you know someone's But that to me, obviously, I'm a fat activist. Like, I'm so used to talking about this stuff. And I have it on the tip of my tongue. Right? I don't expect anyone else to be doing that. But knowing that, from my perspective, my perspective, it's not okay. At all. Not even close to Okay.

Unknown Speaker 55:25

Yeah, so so so we're just respond to that one summarizing that is, I think maybe clarifying what you mean. clarifying that, you know, about anti fatness and why saying your she feels fat is not appropriate. And also saying that you deeply empathize with her in regards to her body image issues, and her body image issues are very real, no matter what her size is. And it's very important that she is able to overcome that stuff, if you want to, you know, and that she's important, her feelings are important. But also, her feelings are important, but she can't throw you under the bus in trying to express them. Okay, so I had a little question box for the kind of like, short little questions here. Someone just sent in mother in law that was it. Just a mother in law. I was like, huh, yeah, yeah. And I think as well with mother in law, it's it's difficult because it's not your mom, right? Your mom, it's kind of like there is theoretically unconditional love. But with your mother in law, the relationship is difficult, right? She can tell you to fuck off. I mean, your mom could it anyway. But their relationship is difficult. And you kind of have to be polite. And depending on your your culture, or where you're from there could be that really kind of, you know, respecting your elders to the point where the elders can be deeply disrespectful for you to you and abusive to you, but you can't say anything because it's a culture. Yeah, so if you are dealing with a mother in law that is happy to be displaying body bigotry, then I am so sorry that you have to deal with that. Okay, someone else says here whenever I eat something, quote, healthy people accuse me of dieting. I'm anti diet and hated. Yeah, so that's fucked up. Ira roll. I mean, people can't get away with eating anything now without someone having some type of opinion that they want to express right? If that person eats a salad, Oh, really. But you don't eat salads often or but you're doing that just for a performance? Or? Oh, are you trying to lose weight good for you ever eating a salad like you've never eaten a salad before? Or if you eat something that is quote unquote, unhealthy, then oh, surprise, surprise, and no matter you're fat, or if you even if you're straight size, and you're eating something, quote unquote, unhealthy, then, oh, you've been naughty, you know? Just keep your opinions about what someone is eating to yourself. Unless you want to be like, Oh, that looks delicious. Can I try? So I'm you know, you would be doing that to a random stranger. Maybe you would. But for me if someone said to me, Oh, are you dieting? I didn't like No. No. And I explained why I'm anti diet. I'm anti diet. And actually, it's really inappropriate that you would ask me that and talk about food. Depending on your like your relationship with that person. I mean, Fuck if I was a being a salad and someone says, oh, you dieting I might, you know, grab a fistful of salad and just be like that. Now, I'm not dieting. Yeah. So there that might be. That might be a an opportunity, depending on your relationship with that person for a little bit of education, about how it's inappropriate to talk about anyone's food, and presuming that they're dieting. Why you're presuming that that person is dieting? Yeah. Okay. Someone says coworkers, mine are brutal. They never say anything about me. But constant diet talk. It's rough. Yeah. So that's the thing is, is it's a lot harder when they're not saying something about you directly. But that kind of art, right? So with co workers, that's another thing is because you can't just go in there and just do some roundhouse kicks and just be like, shut up, Sharon. You might get fired. And so you could approach this in a few different ways. It could be that you send an email to HR and say, Hey, can we institute a no diet talk policy because blah, blah, blah. HR might be like, Oh, why would you do that being fat is bad. You know, you're you might not have HR? It could be that you just have a conversation with your work colleagues and say, Hey, can we not with a diet talk? You could do any of the things that we spoke about earlier about changing the subject, you could, you know, question them you know, if people were talking about diet So I might be curious about like, why do you want to be thin? Like, why do you want to lose weight? Why, but why? We want to be thin and we want to be, it's not healthy to be fat. Is it? Like, where did you get the idea from? Did you know? And so eventually, they'd know that. Why would we talk about that in front of Vinny? She's such a party pooper. They're just, they're such a party pooper. And it could be that you explain to them hey, you know, I've had a history with history of disordered eating. And so when people hear talk about diets, it's really bad for my mental health. It could be that you just get up from the table. Anytime someone talks about dieting, it could be that you put in your headphones and just press the play button when they start talking about dieting. But another thing could be that you ask a manager or HR to bring in a professional like me to teach about anti diet pro fatness, and that's something that I do, right, this part of my businesses is going into organizations and teaching about fat phobia. And I talk about diet talk at the lunchtime, and it feels so fucking satisfying. To be saying, Hey, this is not okay. And for, you know, people would have been like, oh, shit, when I do that all the time. You know, it feels so good to be protecting folks, by talking about that stuff. Someone else here I said, I asked a question. Does anyone have any tips, someone said that they made their own presentation on fat phobia and presented it to the organization. And now they are the lead mental health now they're their mental health team lead organized in my organization is what they said. So it could be that they you know, there's no budget to bring someone like me and but you are going to do it yourself. And then you explain like, why is this harmful? You know, what, what, what is all this about? My father in law comments on my four year olds, body and food choices every time were there. Yeah. So that is boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. And also, you know, with a remove reduced protect, it could be that, you know, father in law said that you're never gonna see them again. You know, we've decided that but also you want to talk to your child about what happened, okay? So you might, you will not be able to protect children from being exposed to anti fat bias. But what you can do is help them understand how it's not okay? By talking to them about that, how that made them feel, and all that type of stuff. Someone asks, mum thinks fat is ugly and doesn't want to be fat. She says it's because she always liked beauty. How do I respect her body autonomy without passively supporting her fat phobia? Yeah. So your mom has an opinion, which is based on a belief and beliefs are not facts. It's not a fact that fat is ugly. It's an opinion. Okay. So I might say to mom, hey, did you know that there are many people who think that being fat is absolutely beautiful, and I happen to be one of them. Sometimes when you talk about how you don't want to be fat, it hurts me in these ways. It makes me worried that you're not going to love me if I'm fat. It makes me anxious that you're judging my body. I mean, if you I don't know if your mom's fat or not. But you know, I, I would probably have that conversation about how it affects you. And if she wants to continue to dye it or be thin or hate being fat. I don't know what her body size is. You know, that's fine. She can do that. But what she can't do is harm you in the process. Even if you have a small body. This stuff is harmful, right? It's this indoctrination of anti fatness, this slow drip. That is, you know, we might say hi. Is it a big deal? Sometimes it's not. Sometimes you might be like, Ah, whatever. But sometimes it is and for those who are struggling with body image stuff. Almost always they have a parent or a sibling or friends who are big into anti fatness that that really influences them. And I'm like, Okay, well, that is a great opportunity to, to sort that out. Because it's probably going to really help you. Yeah, so I would in that situation, talk to mom and say, hey, you know, I understand that you think that that's the fact it's not actually a fact. And this is how it's negatively affecting me. Is there anything I can do to support you in it? accepting your body the way it is. And if she wants to continue to do whatever, in regards to her body, that's her choice, right? Okay, finally one mother in law justifies herself as whenever she eats something she thinks she should be eat, she shouldn't be eating. Well, I never eat junk food like this usually. So I guess one time is okay. When literally no one commented.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:26

Yeah, so I might go with the Hey, mother in law, I'm wondering if you can help me with something. I'm I'm trying to unlearn harmful beliefs around food. And so talking about junk food, quote, unquote, I've noticed is not great for my mental health. I'm wondering if you can avoid talking about that. It could be that when you when Mother Nora says junk food. And talking about like, it sounds like you struggle with allowing yourself to have have certain foods, you know, are you okay? Can we help you with that? Or, you know, or you could come back with some type of sassy thing of like, you know, when she's like, Oh, I'm, I'm, I'm being so bad. You were like, you know, you didn't just, you know, murder again, guinea pig, you know, you're not actually doing anything bad. You're just eating food like a human. Yeah. So when that stuff happens around me, I genuinely ask questions. And, you know, who knows how it goes. But you know, if I ask questions, I know that I'm going to ask questions again, next time that they talk about it. And so then they're less likely to do it. And you know, with other people in my life, I've already set boundaries. And so it's not often I get these experiences. It's only when I'm meeting new people.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:48

So, so yeah. What do you think? What do you think? How are you feeling? I

Unknown Speaker 1:06:53

hope you feel like you can. I know. Set boundaries, if it's if it's appropriate. And also, I want you to forgive yourself, if you if you don't say something in the moment, and then afterwards, you're like, Shit, I could have really like, said this thing. And that would have changed everything. And you know, they would never do it again. And I didn't I just sat there and smiled and nodded. You know, I mean, this stuff is fucking hard. I've been doing this for years. All right. So I want you to, you know, know that this is a process. This is a lifelong, right. And also, it's not appropriate that you're exposed to this stuff, especially from people who you see a lot who you're close to. Who that who you love and who love you, is really, really upsetting and can be very impactful to your mental health. You deserve to have safety in your relationships with with whoever. And it sucks that we're the one having to do this fucking work. It is not fair. It is not fair that we are the ones having to to fucking work so hard to be treated fairly. Get some my fucking tits, huh? All right, well, I'm gonna leave it there for you today. Again, if you want to go to Dominican Republic with me go check out the link in the show notes or go to the link in my bio on Instagram first dot fatti. And we'll see you I guess actually, I'll probably see you in the new year now because I'm me and me and my team are taken off two weeks, the end of the year. And let's see, we're going to take off the week of the 19th and the week of the 26th. So yeah, so probably there's not going to be another podcast until beginning of January. So So actually, so this is good timing because then if we were doing stuff with the holidays, then you know, be prepared. And remember that remove reduced protect. There's a link in in the show notes where you can find a an image for that. So you can refer to that. And yeah, just give yourself a lot of a lot of love and hugs around this stuff. And have a wonderful rest of your day or night or afternoon or whatever.

Episode 149 Transcript

Read transcript alongside audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty podcast episode 149. Atypical anorexia, let's do it.

Hello, welcome to this episode first fatties. Nice to see ya, Hey, I just got some details back on the first fatty vacation, and I want to tell them to you and tell them to you. So for those who don't know, our first fatty vacation is to the Dominican Republic. And it is also a fats, Joy themed vacation. So it's for fat folks. What does fat mean? Who is fat? To answer that question is kind of difficult, because a lot of times it's measured against women's clothing. And not everyone wears women's clothing. And also women's clothing sizes are different in every country, and also different brands, they're different. So a very, very rough guide of what is fat, or what is plus size is someone who is size 1618 as a minimum, and so that might be someone who is like a two XL in of a gendered clothing. But more importantly, a definition of who is fat is if you've experienced systemic marginalization due to the size of your body, so that is, you know, not fitting in chairs, not having blood pressure cuffs that, that fit, being denied opportunities, whatever types of opportunities because of your body size. And it's not your perceived body size, it's the kind of systemic things that have happened versus someone saying, You're too big when you're actually a straight size person. So I'll leave it up to the people who are coming on the trip to work out if they feel like they are a fat person. And in the past, whenever I've said something is a space for fat folks, people have been good in selecting if that hits, if that fits them. And the reason why we're making a fat, fat joy and fat only trip is because to make it a safe space, right? So that everyone is kind of in the same boat in a kind of roundabout right way, right? Because everyone's going to be different sizes, but as long as everyone is a small vat or higher then beautiful. All right, so dates for the trip June 14 to June 18. When the podcast comes out, the trip would have been live for a few days. So go to the show notes and look at the link and it will give you all of the details and you'll have the chance to get early bird tickets, the first eight spots out of thing it's twin, D It's just I'm just looking at my my doobly doo here 18 Okay, so the first eight out of 18 Get earlybird pricing. So go check that out if that interests you the types of things that we are doing. Okay, so, here's here's a snapshot of the things that we're doing when you're low Beach, relax on a palm lined white sand beach and enjoy the clear turquoise waters. I've seen pictures of this place fucking gorgeous. It's so it's like out of a I don't know when you imagine exotic places or you know, a hot places. You know, it's this is this is what it's like it's beautiful. Next Pearl Beach Club. Have a delicious lunch at a private pool, and beautiful with beautiful beachfront views. Cap Karna harbor visit, visit shops and take pictures and afterwards take a dip in a marina port and sip a complimentary cocktail. Oh whoa indigenous ecological park and reserve visit. The reserve consists of a network of trails including 12 freshwater lagoon swim in one of the lagoons with its clear water glittery water and enjoy the sights and sounds of the surrounding tropical forest. Off Road adventure driving your own ATV across a diverse landscape of the Dominican countryside, stock photos and sample locations. receives delicacies like chocolate and organic coffee, cooking class difference delivered by a professional chef who will explain the cooking styles of the region and teach you about traditional Dominican cuisine. And group dining, spend time with your new travel buddies and your host me Vinny at local restaurants. And at the hotel, something delicious local cuisine. And we're gonna be talking about fat joy and kind of setting intentions and laughing having fun splashing in the water, eating food, all that type of stuff. I really would love it to happen. And the only way to happen is if you come along, if we don't have enough interest, then it won't happen. So it's all down to you. Who knows? I have no, I have no idea. What is going to happen with this? I you know, I did a survey to see if you were interested. And you are a lot of people said that they were in theory, I guess. And so it's down now to if in reality that extends to actually making it happen. Pricing wise, you're able to break up the payments, they've have a financing option type of thing. I don't know if it's financing. I don't think there's any interest on it. It's you know, like, you know, have you seen like, now when you buy clothes as the option to spread the payments over X amount or something? I want to find out more about that. And, yeah, so I, I know for sure. But anyway, there's that option, I think you have to put 25% of the price down. early bird pricing is 2695 2695. Yeah, so that's that if you'd love to come then come if you would love to come but can't afford it, I totally get it. The price is a little bit higher for us because we have included things that are accessible. So for example, the transport from the airport, instead of being in, you know, small, a small bus we have, we have a bus with bigger seats. So that we are in a hotel that has bigger showers, we had to pick a hotel that was a little bit more expensive. So just kind of just some transparency there. Again, this is absolutely accessible in regards to if you need to rent a scooter or a wheelchair, we have that option. We have options for buses that have ramps, the activities that we're doing, they are all well, it's it's activity level one. So the activities we're doing, as you can see from the things that I was telling you, like quani low beach, so that's accessible Pearl Beach Club, and so again, that's accessible in regards to wheelchairs, and also folks who have limited mobility. And then there's other things like you know, like the ecological park and and that's, you know, as much as you want to explore, you can do that. And if others want to explore more than they can do that too. No one is going to be left behind. I absolutely promise you. And you know, rather than the ATV, if that's not something that you want to do, you don't have to write. But again, we're going to be driven right to the adventurer place so the ATV So yeah, if you've got questions, if you're unsure about anything, then please do send me an email fattie at fierce fatty.com or go on to the link in the show notes to get all of the details because I'm just kind of giving you a little overview right of the things that we're doing. But then you've got more details on what that looks like every single day and all that jazz. So who knows that is going to happen. You tell me if you want to come? I would love to see you there. Okay, so let's talk about what we're talking about today, which is atypical anorexia, and I've never done an episode that is dedicated to atypical anorexia. And actually researching for this episode, I was like, Yeah, I know. I know, you know, atypical anorexia, I know about that. But I've learnt some, you know, more facts around it. And I thought that it was really interesting, and I thought that you would find it interesting to her. And a big trigger warning here we're going to be talking about the effects of atypical anorexia.

Unknown Speaker 9:50

What it's like and the differences that people in bigger bodies experience and so if that's not feeling good for you today, then maybe skip this episode because we We'll be talking about that I'm not gonna be talking about anything like calories or, or weights, specific weights. So you don't need to worry about that. Alright, so a typical anorexia let me just read out a little bit here. Atypical anorexia, basically, I'm not reading by the way, I'm just talking Exia is anorexia in someone who is in a body that is not very small or underweight. Okay. So if you think about anorexia, a lot of the times what we think about is someone in a very small body. That actually should be called atypical anorexia. Because the most typical form of anorexia is anorexia in people with bigger bodies. And just to look a heads up oh, look at Quick what Mayo Clinic say about anorexia nervosa. Anorexia is an eating disorder characterized by an N Abloh, abnormally low body weight, intense fear of gaining weight and a distorted perception of weight. People with anorexia place a high value on controlling their weight and shape using extreme efforts that tend to significantly interfere with their lives. So notice that with this just standard definition, characterized by having a small body and that's the first thing that they lead with at Mayo Clinic. But really, that's it's kind of like where, where you're starting out if you already have a smaller body, then it's more likely that if you if you have anorexia, that you'll get a smaller body. If you have a bigger body, chances are that you'll still have a bigger body even if you have anorexia because there's only a certain amount of weight that your body can lose before it just says no, that's enough. And a lot of times for people who are in bigger bodies, it's not low enough to be classed as having anorexia but they will be classed as having a typical anorexia which is problematic and we'll talk about that now. Okay, so here's a quote. Atypical anorexia is dangerous because it did it's often not recognized family and family it's an even doctors might be praising a young woman. I don't know why they say women here because everyone can have an IDI but it is more common in women praising a human for impressive weight loss when she is actually critically unwell. A typical anorexia patients have all the same symptoms and behaviors as typical patients typical anorexia patients except the most visible one low weight. A 2016 study found that there were they were just as physically compromised and distressed emotionally as their typical typical counterparts. Both are driven by an obsessive fear of weight gain and being fat but atypical anorexia patients had what they what they study called significantly higher levels of distress related to eating and body image and a fear of fatness, but their weight history might exacerbate. Let me read that again. So people who are in bigger bodies who have anorexia have significantly higher levels of distress related to eating and body image and a fear of fatness that their weight history might exacerbate. So, you know, people in bigger bodies have got that evidence that lived experience of what it's like to be in a bigger body and what would happen if they got back to that bigger body that maybe they had before? Or if they have lost weight, and what that experience is like and what if then they get a even bigger body than what they had previously. So there's a New York Times Magazine article, which is the which came out in a month a month, like six weeks ago, and I had pinned it to read is really good. And I have linked it in the show notes, but it's behind a paywall, depending on how many times you've looked at New York, New York Times, as I've also linked a link so that you can read it from behind the paywall. So if you if you there's it's an archive.ph link and so if you're like what the fuck is this, this dodgy link that Vinnie has given me, that's just what that is. And so you can go and read it. It's about a I'm 45 minute read. So it's quite in depth. And so I'm going to pick out some of the things in here that I thought were was really, really interesting and I'm going to read a few paragraphs from the very beginning. And the title of it is you don't look anorexic. Okay, so are you sitting comfortably, then I shall begin for centuries, the eating disorder that would become known as anorexia nervosa, mystified the medical community, which struggled to understand or even define an illness that causes people to deliberately deprive themselves of food. As cases rose, over the course of a 19th and 20th centuries, anorexia was considered a purely psychological disorder akin to hysteria. So William with the girl, an English physician who coined the term anorexia, Nova Llosa, in the late 1800s, called it a perversion of the ego. There's a link there to the perversion of the ego. And there's a there's a kind of article in this 1800s I don't know what it was a magazine for doctors, and him describing a patient and he has a I think it was woodblock illustration of the patient, and her symptoms and all that type of stuff. And it's quite interesting. There's mention of weight in there. So if you don't want to see that, yeah, so and yeah, and saying it's a perversion of the ego kind of sounds like he was quite perplexed about what was happening. Okay, continuing in 19, after an autopsy revealed an atrophied pituitary gland. Anorexia was thought to be an endocrinologic injure and DRO Coronado logical disease and chronological disease oh my god, I've worked so hard. That theory was later debunked, and in the mid 20th century, psychoanalytic explanations arose pointing to sexual and developmental dysfunction and later, unhealthy family dynamics. More recently, the medical field has come to believe that anorexia can be the product of a constellation of psychological, social, genetic, neurological and biological factors. Since anorexia nervosa became the first eating related disorders listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. That's called the DSM in 1952. So anorexia was put in the DSM in 1952, its criteria have shifted as well. Initially, anorexia had no weight criteria, and was classified as a psycho sociological, psycho physiological disorder. In 19, in a 1972 paper, a team led by the prominent psychiatrist John finer, suggested using a weight loss of at least 25% as a standard for research purposes. And in 1980, the DSM introduced that figure in its definition, along with a criterion that patients weigh well below, quote, unquote, normal for their age and height, although normal was not defined. Doctors who relied on that number soon found that that patients who had lost at least 25% of their body weight were already severely sick. So in 1987, the diagnosis were revised to include those who weighed less than 85% of their, quote, normal body weight, well qualified as normal was left for physicians to decide. In the 2013 DSM, the criteria shifted, again, characterizing those who suffer from anorexia as having a significantly low weight, a description that would also appear in the 2022 edition. So this is interesting. So the first time that anorexia was mentioned, it was in 1952. In the DSM, as in, you know, in that in that context, in the DSM, and there was no way attached to it. And I wonder, I wonder, the discussions around that at that time, if you listened to the episode last week of the biggest scammers in the weight loss industry.

Unknown Speaker 19:38

And we know by the 1950s, weight loss and diets and all that bullshit was in in full full force, right full swing, people were absolutely trying to become smaller and absolutely presumed to know that fat bodies were bad. My wonder One how much that influenced folks with anorexia because we've had cases since the 1800s have been identified and even before you know, we started last last episode on talking about stuff hate happening in the early 19th century, but anti fatness has been around for hundreds of years. So yes, one, how much anti fatness influenced folks with anorexia, and also how much anti fatness influenced the idea that there should be a weight categorization. Because if you lose 24.9% of your body weight, that's just a diet. But if you lose 20, lose 25% of your body weight, then that is our Axia. You know, according to the DSM in 1980. And, and so, I wonder previously to that when they didn't have that weight limit or weight criteria, which is absolutely bizarre, it's the only mental illness and has a weight criteria. Can you imagine if you were like, Oh, you don't have depression, because you're too fat to have depression, only thin people have depression. You're just imagining it. Yeah, and I wonder if diet companies or those invested in anti fatness, push, push back to get a definition. And even if it is people in the mental health world, pushing back and they they are living in a world that is anti fat. The idea that whatever fat person loses weight, well, then that's good no matter how much you know. And people who are, who are the higher weight people are regularly encouraged to lose 25% plus of their weight, right? And so at least in the 1980s, if you had a 400 pound person, and they lost weight and they became a 250 pound person, then folks might start to say, Okay, well, what's going on here? Are they engaging in disordered eating? Do they have an eating disorder? Whereas more recently in the 22,020 13 DSM, we've got that has to have significantly low weight and I wonder what was going on there? of why is it that we have positioned fat folks who have an eating disorder if they are still currently fat as that's okay. Or that is not a typical anorexia. And a lot of people haven't even heard of a typical anorexia. Right. I mean, a lot of a lot of doctors GPS don't know don't know that term. And if they do, they probably think it's, it's, you know, not that common when actually it's the most common, you know, straight up anorexia is way less common than atypical anorexia. Yeah, so I find that interesting to think about of why is it then we got to the 23rd. Why is it we've got to 2013 and then we've got the significantly low weight isn't a mental illness, the same mental illness depending on your size? Is it the fact that a fat person could quote, still stand to lose weight? And then so then, okay, well, it's not a bad thing in that circumstance, but you know, we do have the atypical diagnosis in the DSM. So let me continue. In that 2013 addition, then a new diagnosis appeared a typical anorexia nervosa nervosa after healthcare providers noticed more patients showing up for treatment with all the symptoms of anorexia nervosa except one, a significantly low weight. So isn't that interesting, right. So physicians saw fat people coming in with anorexia, and instead of expanding the definition of what anorexia is they reduced it further to be so it's only for people who have a significantly low weight. Okay, continuing. Those with atypical anorexia, doctors observed suffer the same mental and physical symptoms as people with anorexia nervosa, even life threatening heart issues and electrolyte balances. They restrict calories intensively obsess about food eating and body image and view their weight as inextricably linked to their value. They often skip meals eaten secret adhere to intricate rules about what foods they allow themselves to consume and create unusual habits like chewing and spitting out food. Other exercise to the point of exhaustion abused laxatives and purge their meals. But unlike those diagnosed with anorexia, people with atypical anorexia can lose significant amounts of weight, but still have a medium or large body size. others because of their body's metabolism, hardly lose any weight at all. To the outside world. They appear quote unquote, oh word. Yeah, so that's the introduction of the history of a typical anorexia. And so starting in the mid 2000s, a number of people seeking treatment for the disorder rose sharply whether more people are developing atypical anorexia or or seeking treatment, or more doctors are recognizing it is unknown, but this group now comprises up to half of all patients hospitalized in eating disorder programs. So half of all patients hospitalized in eating disorder programs, have those with atypical anorexia. And so just a reminder here, atypical anorexia wasn't in the DSM, until 2013. Okay, so if you were kind of similar age to me, I'm, I'm 38. You might be thinking, holy shit, I never knew about this, I think that I have lived with a typical anorexia myself. And we, you know, we didn't, we didn't know these things, we didn't know that. As a fat person, you could be not eating enough. I always thought, when I was not in, in fat positivity, I always thought, if you were fat, you had eaten enough, full stop. And until you became very thin, then that was evidence that you had not eaten enough. But that's not how the body works, right? How fat on your, on your body, having adipose tissue is not this unlimited fuel source, right? Someone could die of starvation and be a very fat person. Because the body needs so much to run just to just run basic organs right? need so much just to keep you alive, nevermind. Other things like going out in the world and walking around and, and using your brain and keeping you warm, and all that type of stuff. So every day, we need so much energy to be able to do that. And, you know, when we stop eating enough food, a lot of people think well, you know, your body just kind of keep burning and burning and burning fat to make energy until you become thin. And that's not what happens, right? That's not what happens. Our fat cells don't contain all of the things that we need to live and thrive. And also, our body stops that process from happening because our body goes into a starvation state. A lot of hormones are whizzing around telling us to to conserve our energy, making us extra hungry. And our metabolism can go out of whack. Right? And, and so you can have a fat person who, whose body is desperately desperately unwell from being under nourished, you know, the same reasons that someone with a smaller body would die from anorexia are the same reasons that someone with a bigger body would die from anorexia, right? The body is eating away at muscles and your heart being

Unknown Speaker 29:26

a muscle and it becoming weaker and weaker and all of the other processes that are happening right. Which to me, when I understood this about atypical anorexia, I was like, what you know, isn't what I just really it I found it very hard to wrap my head around the idea that you could starve and be fat, because, you know, I just saw fatness as this just unending fuel source. but it's it's not right Okay, continuing with some some quotes. So studies suggest that the same number of people even as many as three times as many will develop a typical anorexia as traditional anorexia in their lifetime. So let me read it again, study suggests that the same number of people, even as many as three times as many will develop a typical anorexia as opposed to traditional anorexia in their lifetimes. One estimate suggests that as much as 4.9% of the female population will have the disorder for boys the number is lower when estimate was 1.2. For men, it's likely even lower, though little research exists for non binary people, the number jumps to as high as 7.5% That's a big difference, isn't it? For non binary people? 7.5% for for women 4.9%. And when we think like, oh, that's not that many people. It's, it's a lot of people to have a life threatening mental health condition. Yeah. So despite its prevalence, atypical anorexia is still considered widely under diagnosed and under researched. And many primary care doctors have never even heard of it. Patients too are unaware of it and see themselves having a weight issue. Yeah, that's the thing. It's like, it doesn't matter what you do to get thin, just get thin, is the is the message that we hear, right? It doesn't matter if you have to cut cut off healthy organ, putting yourself into into your digestive system into a disease state. It doesn't matter if you use that device, a spire assist which pumps your stomach after you eat. It doesn't matter. If you never eat food or you eat so so much food, you're in a forced starvation state which is the same, which is the same amount of calories that many diets Noom prescribe, that doesn't matter, because you're getting thinner. And of course, thinner is healthier. Oh, yeah, it's caused you to have an eating disorder. Oh, who cares? You're fat? Is what society says. So, and it's hard. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, how many of us fat people have had that experience of losing weight and going to the doctor, for example, and the doctor saying you've lost weight? Amazing. Right? That's so good, good for you. How did you lose? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You're thinner. That's all that matters. And even if you did say to the doctor, well, you know, I'm, I'm eating this and that and it's clearly not enough for a human to live on what the doctor say. That sounds like you're not eating enough. Very unlikely. Very unlikely. Okay, continuing in 2020. Aaron Harrop, an Assistant Professor of Social Work at the University of Denver completed a survey of 39 people with atypical anorexia, most of whom were fat. They used to work and found that participants endured the disorder for an average of 11.6 years before seeking help. They lost an average of 64 pounds, and a quarter of the group had yet to receive treatment. By comparison, the treatment delays for anorexia are on average 2.5 years for bulimia 4.4 for binge eating disorder on average are 2.5 for bulimia 4.4 for binge eating disorder 5.6 According to a 2021 review, okay, so people with atypical anorexia have to wait 11.6 years. And that's even if they get help. Where as on average, a straight size person will have to wait 2.5 years. That is a huge difference. Imagine what living with anorexia does if you were doing that for 11.6 years, with no support with people encouraging you with you being convinced that your body is wrong. And so presumably from that, then Um, fat folks must have poor outcomes. I don't know this is I'm speculating, but I you know, in regards to even if they are able to go to treatment, and are they are they then more likely to have longer term effects? Are they likely more more likely to die versus straight size people don't know. Continuing to make it easier for people with atypical anorexia to be screened, treated and insured, there's a growing movement in the field to collapse the categories of anorexia and atypical anorexia into one to no longer see them as separate illnesses due to decouple anorexia from his virtually synonymous Association within us. Many, however, are fiercely resistant to letting go of the metric of weight, it would require altering the organizing principle by which the public and the greater medical field conceive of the condition. It would also require recognizing that anyone in any body can starve themselves into poor health. And you'd never know it by looking at them. That is, that's a really powerful sentence, I think. And that's it. And that, and then fat people have to deal with the stigma of there's no way that you are anorexic because you're fat. We all know, anorexic people have discipline and are thin because of that discipline. But look at you fat person, you're so undisciplined that you could never have anorexia. And these are the types of thoughts that I would have. When I was severely restricting what I ate, of, there's no way that I'm hurting. There's no way that I'm not getting enough food, because we all know that fat people. That's not their story, right? That if we're if I really was starving myself, I'd be thin. But I really was starving myself. Continuing the line between the two diagnosis is not particularly scientific, and has harmful effects on patient's ability to secure care. So this is what happens. When a human body is stabbed for long enough. It undergoes a complex series of biological, metabolic and hormonal changes to ensure its own survival. Every system moves to conserve energy, and the body begins to mind muscle and fat for glucose to keep the heart running and the brain functioning. The metabolism slows, which is why some people can eat very little and hardly lose any weight. If malnutrition worsens, their hair becomes fragile and falls out and muscle mass dwindles, including within the heart. People with severe anorexia of any kind can have orthostatic hypotension, heart rates lower than 60 beats per minute and electrolyte imbalances that may cause arrhythmias or even lead to cardiac arrest. From what little research on atypical anorexia exists, the medical complications appear to be the same as anorexia, and occur in similar rates across body sizes. So you don't have to be someone who is living in a very small body to experiences those things, is just when the body is forced into

Unknown Speaker 38:43

starvation. Recent research has found that body size is a less relevant indicator of the severity of both eating disorders. And other factors, including the percentage of body mass lost the speed of that loss and the duration of the malnourished nourish state. So it having a small body doesn't tell you that your anorexia is more severe than someone in a bigger body. There are other indicators to show you how severe it is. And I'm going back to and I've mentioned it many times before, I mentioned in the last episode, Minnesota, the Minnesota starvation experiment, to see reminding us of what starvation does to us mentally, as well as physically and those those people who went through the experiments were given calories, which are actually more generous than than modern diets, many modern diets and they really, really struggled with their mental health left with eating disorders, left, you know, being hospitalized, left with less fingers than what they started with because one gentleman chopped off three of his fingers and Um, yeah, more recent research suggests that losing just 5% of one's body weight can be associated with a clinically significant eating disorder. Wow, this is huge, right? Losing just 5% body weight can be associated with a clinically significant eating disorder. And what is it that we are told to lose it is going to help us and our health so much five to 10% of your body weight. I had that Weight Watchers key ring, which was in the shape of a 10 for years for the 10%. But But weight loss when I got the 10% weight loss. And I was like 10%, I can do more than that. And I did. But they make it a thing. And it's, it's it's made up right. There's no scientific data to show that losing five to 10% of your body weight, it will improve your health. It's a marketing ploy. And here we've got this information losing just 5% of your body weight can be associated with clinically significant eating disorder. Yes, yeah. Recovery is different. When atypical anorexia patients were given the same high calorie foods in the same portions as anorexia patients, they did not recover as well. It might sound like a no brainer. GABA says Scarborough's, someone in the thing, they have a larger body size, and so we believe they need more nutrition to recover. Hmm, it's like having a, you know, maybe someone in a smaller body there like a fee at 500. And then someone in a bigger body, it's like they're a jeep, right? And then you put the same amount of fuel in both and expect them both to have the same results. And it's probably like, you know, we need we need, you know, what they're saying here is we need more fuel to recover when you're in a bigger body need more nutrition to recover? Some psychologists report that atypical anorexia is hard. It's harder to treat than anorexia because the fear of weight gain is even greater in people who have been bullied and shamed for their size. Yes. And so we have, we have stories that inter woven in this piece, I'm not done with this piece, but inter woven in this piece is stories of different people and their experiences with a typical anorexia. And basically, their experiences are, it's took a long time to be diagnosed, even if when they were diagnosed, either they weren't believed by other people, or they didn't believe it themselves, because they were so kind of entrenched in the idea that their body was bad, and they need to become thin. And then when they went to treatment, so people were sent to what do you call, I remember the name of them, but you know, treatment facilities, treatment facilities, and they were treated really badly. So they even though their their charts would say that they had a typical anorexia. They were treated as if they had binge eating disorder. Because folks associate binge eating disorder with with people with bigger bodies, and were denied foods were given less food because of their body size. And also, care was denied by insurance companies who would pull funding after a couple of weeks or not give any type of funding to go to treatment, because they have higher body weights than what you see with people with typical anorexia, which is not typical, should be called the atypical. Yeah, so anyway, so continuing on in recognition of the inconsistent care that people with atypical anorexia sometimes receive a small vanguard of professionals in the field are experimenting with ways to improve treatment for people with larger bodies. But there's only so much can they can do before butting up against systemic challenges. And the biggest one is discriminatory insurance coverage. The issue stems not only from the lack of knowledge about a relatively new diagnosis, it's also a product of how the diagnosis is named and coded, because it's labeled a typical and filed under the murky, other specified feeding or eating disorder category, it is often seen as less dangerous. It is an absurd diagnosis, says Jennifer L. Qadiani. an internist who specializes in eating disorders in Denver, and the author of sick enough a guide to the medical complications of eating disorders. There's nothing atypical about it. If there's anything atypical it's the people who get underweight. Mm hmm. Yes, Jennifer To make it easier for people to secure care, some therapists, social workers and researchers have been advocating combining atypical anorexia and anorexia by removing the requirement to have a significantly low weight from the standard anorexia diagnosis. So how a typical anorexia is treated is apparently the most effective treatment. Treatments also often involve cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavior therapy and family based treatment. And psychotherapy, medication nutrition counseling. You know, the nutrition counseling, I wonder if, if when they're in a fat body, it's like, Hey, don't eat too much. You don't want to get me I'm gonna put on weight group and our family therapy and hospital hospitalization. Mm hmm. Yeah, so we hear a lot of fat folks going to treatment for needy. And being told don't, don't put on weight, recover, but don't Don't, don't, but don't go away, don't want it to be bigger than you are or, or even if they're straight size, we don't want you to get fat, like if someone is is has a low body weight. Even the staff who are trained in in eating disorders and how to treat them will put the heebie jeebies up them and say, you know, but we don't we don't want you to get above a certain way, you know. And there's not any, there's not any resources on anti fat bias, which is a huge part of fear of fatness, the real experience of living in a fat phobic world and how that is real, and really painful for folks. And so how that is a genuine fear. And also the perceptions of fatness being unhealthy and lovable and attractive, all that type of stuff. And those those being, you know, false for a lot of a lot of folks, right? Yeah. So I asked people to tell me their experiences with atypical anorexia, and I got an incredible message from a health care provider. So this is an experience from the inside. All right, so this person says in the US, I worked in an inpatient unit. And a typical anorexia wasn't a billable Insurance Code for inpatient level of care. Already, you know, that first sentence, you were not you were denied care if you had a bigger body when you had a mental health condition. That is the most fatal mental health condition

Unknown Speaker 48:06

of all of them. Now, if that isn't raging fatphobia, then I don't know what is the only thing that's different body size. Okay, continuing. So providers often had to diagnose them with something else on paper to get them care. Despite that being insurance fraud. I mean, cheat the system. I don't care, but it quickly developed into fat phobia when recurring diagnosis given to fat folks with anorexia was binge eating disorder. So much stigma, and then others providers from then on would see that dx diagnosis and make all kinds of harmful assumptions. The worst is when a fat patient came in intake form said, Edie eating disorder. And the attending psychiatrist, didn't bother to do the questionnaire, and just diagnosed the person with BPD binge eating disorder, despite having blatant anorexia. And I said, Wow, thank you so much for this. I really appreciate your insight. How do you think this affected patients? And this person says one time, I remember one time a patient saw her chart and asked that it be changed. And she had to go through patients support services, which informally brands a person as, quote, non compliant, or even litigious? The attending would say, Why is she wasting so much time on this? She's just avoiding doing the real work of getting care. I'm ashamed to say that I used to think that that was some that think that was some keen psychological insight into a patient when now looking back is just a human being asked that they have some agency and lay evils that will define the quality of care they receive for the rest of their life. It's so nice to hear from someone on the inside, right to see to show that it's not kind of the perceptions of folks in there. It's, this is real, right? And people in eating disorder recovery, how often they are deeply, deeply, deeply entrenched in in anti fat bias. So I'm going to end this episode with the story from the main person in this this article. And that person is called Sharon Maxwell. So I thought I'd leave it till the end, because it's, it's kind of in pieces in that that big article, and I've kind of pieced it together into like, one code, one coherent story without kind of going back with on statistics. And also, I'm just going to be talking for like 10 minutes, I guess, you know, with her story. So if you don't want to hear Sharon story, then I mean, you can go, you're dismissed. Anytime anyway, like, I'm done with you Vinny pause. But I thought we'd end with this. And before I share, Sharon's story, which was written by the New York Times Magazine, just kind of, if you've, if you have kind of recognized, oh, maybe I have atypical anorexia, or maybe I used to, or, or I'm struggling with any type of eating disorder, I just want to say that you are important, your care is important, your mental well being is important, and you deserve to be supported in recovering from an eating disorder. And there are resources out there, there is an increasing drive to have good quality, weight neutral care. However, that is not the standard. And so sending you all the love and fatty hugs, and I encourage you to Google, you know, in your local area, what could be helpful, helpful for you. And, you know, go check out the links in the bio for the New York Times story, because, you know, that might be there's more stuff in there than what we've talked about today. So that that might be helpful for you. And there are other people there, who also have experienced atypical anorexia, and it might be helpful for you to go follow them on social media. And I know at least one of them has a podcast where they talk about this stuff. So that could be helpful too. So I hope you're able to reach out and even if it's just someone you're in your life and tell them that you need help, because I bet they would love to be able to help in any way that's possible. Alright, so let's talk this to Sharon Maxwell story, so I'm just going to be talking and sharing her story. Sharon Maxwell spent much of her life trying to make herself small. A family put her on her first diet when she was 10. Early on Saturday mornings, she and her mother would drive through the empty suburban streets of Hammond ind. In Indianapolis, Indiana. In an effort to attend Weight Watchers meetings. Maxwell did her best at that stage to track her meals and lock her points, but the scale wasn't going down fast enough. So she decided to barely eat anything on Fridays and take laxatives that she found in the medicine cabinet. Food had long been a fraught subject in the Maxwell household. Her parents are also bigger bodied, and dieted frequently. They belonged to a fundamentalist Baptist mega church where gluttony was seen as a sin to eat at home was to navigate a labyrinth of rules and restrictions. Maxwell watched one time as her mother lost 74 pounds in six months by consuming little more than carrot juice. Her skin temporarily turned orange. Sometimes her father sees by a new diet idea abruptly ransacked shelves on in the kitchen sweeping newly forbidden foods into the trash. Maxwell was constantly worried about eating too much. She started to eat alone and in secret, she took two chewing morsels and spitting them out. She hid food behind books in her pockets under mattresses and in between clothes folded neatly in drawers. Through Maxwell's eating it through Mac through Maxwell's teenage years and early 20s Eating became even more stressful. Her thoughts constantly orbited around food, what she was eating or not eating the calories she was burning or not burning the size of her body and especially what people thought of it. her prayer appearance was often a topic of public interest. When she went grocery shopping for her family other customers commented on the items in her cart. Honey, are you sure you want to eat that? One person said other shoppers offered unsolicited advice about diets. Strangers congratulated her when her cart was filled with vegetables. As she grew older, people at the gym clapped and cheered for her while she worked out. People would say go you you can lose her weight. She says. While eating and public other diners offered feedback and they still do to this day on her choices. A few even asking if she wanted to join their gym. Some would call her name's pig fatty. Sometimes people told her she was brave for wearing shorts, while others said she should cover up. She was always aware whether she wanted to be or not of how others viewed her body. Maxwell tried just about every day she could find juice cleanses Atkins Slim Fast South Beach Mediterranean whole 30 zekiel, a regimen regimen based on biblical references. She tried being vegetarian and Vigo at vegan and paleo. She tried consuming less than 500 calories a day and taking HCG fertility hormone rumored to suppress appetite but flagged by the FDA as risky and unproven for weight loss. During periods of religious fasting at her church, she would take the practice to an extreme consuming nothing but water for days. And on one occasion, two weeks. I passed out a few times, but I did it she says sometimes she exercise more than three hours a day in high intensity interval training sessions and kickboxing classes. Eventually she started vomiting up her food. Every day Maxwell stepped on the scale and internalize a number as a reflection of her self worth. Often the number on the scale went down. But if she let up on her rigid food, food rules, even briefly the numbers shot back up like a coiled spring. I just cycled through that she says but it became harder and harder each time to get the weight off.

Unknown Speaker 57:16

During the many years of dieting and deprivation Maxwell experienced mysterious health problems for a decade starting when she was 16. She almost never had her period. She was always cold, and she often had dizzy spells and occasionally passed out in class. When she was in college, she fainted three times in one day and was taken to the emergency room. For an appointment with an endocrinologist one year, Maxwell took a purse full of small plastic bags. Each one contained a day's worth of hair clumps that accumulate accumulated in her brush or had fallen in the shower drain. Her head was popped with board spots. The doctor was pleased with her weight loss and to her memory didn't seem too concerned about her other symptoms. Anything that makes the scale don't go down. Maxwell says I was given a pat on the back. Four years ago at the age of 25, Maxwell walked into her primary care doctor's office near Scottsdale, Arizona, where she lived and worked as a middle school teacher. She was there for an annual physical and she was prepared to be told to lose weight. And she had almost always been instructed. But this time the doctor an osteopath started asking unusual questions. Maxwell's blood work showed abnormally low iron and electrolyte levels. The doctor asked Maxwell what was she eating and what was she doing in relationship to food? Was she starving herself or she vomiting on purpose? Maxwell was surprised by this line of questioning. These are things I had heard in my whole life from my family, my friends, doctors. She says the Osteopath pa told her. She thought Maxwell had an eating disorder and suggested arranging treatment right away. Maxwell would later be diagnosed with atypical anorexia nervosa, and increasingly common yet little known eating disorder that shares all the same symptoms as anorexia nervosa, except for extreme thinness just as many people and possibly many more suffer from atypical anorexia. At the physical Maxwell Maxwell stared at her daughter in disbelief. She always thought that eating disorders were for skinny people. I laughed. She says, I don't use language like this any longer. But I told her she was crazy. I told her. No, I have a self control problem. It took Maxwell a long time to process that she had an eating disorder she had seen so she had been so steeped in the Gospel of dieting, that it was hard to accept that risk stretching her food was not unequivocally healthy. But her doctor instructed. She began making visits to the hospital for intravenous fluids and started taking iron supplements. At night she began attending outpatient sessions at the liberation center, and now shuttered facility in Phoenix where she ate dinner with other clients and attended group therapy. The staff at liberation told her she needed more intensive treatment and recommended attending a residential program. In the summer of 2018, after teaching through the rest of the school year, Maxwell agreed to go to a center in Monterey, Monterey, California, California, that was covered by her insurance. A day after she arrived However, her insurance rescinded approval. Because of her weight, the company didn't believe she was sick enough to meet the criteria for residential care for eating disorders. She was at once ashamed and incensed her art drove her five hours to pick her up, and she spent much of the next 10 days on the phone with the insurance company. Her assure insurance eventually authorized her to go to another facility, the Center for discovery Rancho Palos Palos Verdes, which sits on the Southern California coast. Maxwell's three month stay would consist of group meals, outings to restaurants, to practice dining and public settings, yoga and therapy. I went with the expectation that as soon as I walked in the door, they would be the people who would help me finally become thin once and for all she says. Instead, on her first day, a dietitian at the center explained that she would need to eat three balanced meals and three snacks a day to recover. Her treatment plan also required that she abstained from almost all forms of exercise, so her system could recalibrate. Maxwell panicked, she had never consistently eaten that much in her entire adult life. And she still felt that her body was a problem to be fixed. Maxwell already harbored a deep mistrust of the mental health profession. When she was growing up. She remembers a pastor at her church preaching that psychiatry was the work of the devil. The message seemed to be that anxiety was sinful, a sign of faithlessness Maxwell had left the church two years earlier, but its lessons were still large deeply in her mind. She couldn't abandon her long held belief, one that her doctors reinforced for much of her life. That thinness was the primary measure of health. Maxwell forced herself to go along with each step of the treatment program. She tried to eat three meals and three snacks a day, even though it caused her excruciating fear. For years, her thinking have revolved tightly around food and exercise and during twice weekly individual therapy sessions, and daily group therapy, she tried to learn how to redirect those thoughts. She started to talk about the self judgment, shame and childhood trauma that led to rigid behaviors, and an over reliance on control both central features of restricted eating disorders. After about five or six weeks into treatment, it dawned on her just how much damage she had done to herself. Her esophagus burned from years of purging. She experienced heart palpitations and was often dizzy from or foot orthostatic hypotension, a type of lower blood pressure that leads to dizziness and fainting. And her hair and nails were thin and brittle from malnutrition. I started to realize Holy shit, this is real. She says, I started to see what it had done to my body the magnitude of it. Over the ensuing ensuing weeks, Maxol began eating enough food that the staff allowed her to go on walks and swim, not around calories, but as a part of learning how to live a balanced life. Her physical symptoms started to ease her vital signs and bloodwork improved. She felt less Dizzy a heartbeat more regular. She got her period back for the first time in a decade and perhaps more surprisingly, she was not gaining weight despite eating more food. I think that's a bit of a fat phobic line. To help her overcome her self judgment, a nurse suggested that she look in the mirror and express what she liked about her body. At first, Maxwell couldn't think of what to say. She could hardly make eye contact with her own reflection. But eventually she thought of something. I'm grateful for my curly hair, she said, looking in looking at the nurse in the mirror.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:40

After she left the Center for discovery, and moved to South Carolina Maxwell started a partial hospitalization program at the eating discovery eating recovery descent center in Greenville. She immediately began noticing how her size was affecting the quality of her treatment. When she arrived a staff member member put her in her room and told her to wait. While the people with quote normal eating disorders gathered next door. Her words felt like a gut punch. At lunch she was told to sit by herself at the back of the dining room, while the other clients sat together with their backs to her. I was like, I can't sit with them. She says the center had mistaken her diagnosis for binge eating disorder, and had a policy of separating those clients from the others. Sometimes staff members singled her out and had her eat less than small bodied patients. At a group therapy session in which she was the only large person in the room. Another patient shared that she would rather die than be fat, her literally expressing spirit expressing that while I'm in the room, that to be me to live in this body that I have to recover in would be worse than anything. It's just ostracising Maxwell says the eating Recovery Center does not comment on individual patients experiences but since 2021, it says it has made efforts to counteract weight stigma in its treatment centers in late 2018. Maxwell decided to be more open about her eating disorder with friends and family and started posting about it on Instagram. Over the years she's included photographs of her younger self and shared memories of her decades long journey. Sometimes it felt brazen and edgy, but also good. I am fat and I have anorexia. She wrote in a 2020 post, and I don't have to explain my body to you these days. Maxwell's inner landscape is very different than it once was on a Sunday sun on a sat on a sunny Saturday afternoon in may not far from where she lives in San Diego. She did something that would have brought her waves of anxiety in the past. She went to the beach. Amid the tiny jangle of an ice cream truck she truck she unfurled her towel and sat down. Before she started her recovery. She would have spent her time at the beach worried about what she was wearing or not wearing, what she had eaten or would eat later and what other people were thinking or not thinking about her body, followed by this tangle of thoughts she would miss the experience. Now she doesn't give those things much thought. on that Saturday, she watched her dogs zoom around the sand and laugh with a couple of friends. Her mind was not floating above her body disassociated. Maxwell is choosing to recover as fully as she can, but it's not easy. After 19 years of going undiagnosed. She still suffers from some of the physical, mental and social costs of anorexia. Doctors are monitoring her recovery from Long QT syndrome and electrical issue with the heart that can turn into potential fatal arrhythmia. Long QT syndrome is a rare side effect of anorexia. She also has an annual endoscopy endoscopy to assess the slow healing from her damaged esophagus from years of vomiting. She has incurred mountains of debt from months of treatment. She checks in with a doctor and a therapist regularly and takes photos of her meals to a dietitian. As proof that she's eating three meals a day a standard in recovery. She attends an eating disorder support group even though she has rarely seen another larger bodied person there. She also has started to cook for herself. But to be a larger person in this world is to be constantly reminded her are reminded of how other people view your body. When she posts about recovery and fat positivity on Instagram or Tiktok whether it's theatrically smashing her scale with a baseball bat, or performing slam poetry in her car, a flurry of trolls rise from the backwaters of the Internet to riddle her feed with insults and death threats. You need a sign that says beware of pig one commenter wrote, moo moo goes a cow route another who created a handle at Sharon Maxwell Hayter expressly to bully her. Society pities you because you're eating yourself to into an early grave, and other wrote. But Maxwell has also received direct messages from people who have struggled in similar ways they have never admitted to themselves, let alone to their family or friends how much they are suffering. I just wanted to say that I am a fat person with an eating disorder who isn't yet in recovery but trying one route. Every day I have these crazy disordered thoughts and get into a spiral of how I'm not valid valid enough for recovery. The content has been absolutely pivotal for me, and I'm so happy that you exist. Many people with anorexia describe the illness as a battle between two selves. One is a maniacal super ego hell burned on control at all costs, in a misguided attempt to find safety in imposes preferred prefer perfectionistic rules and restrictions in Sisyphean pursuit of unreachable ideal. Some fear it is intent on self destruction. This self which much Well Matt So of course a conceptualized self enforces all the expectations of one's upbringing in the culture at large and sees the world in lifeless tones of black and white like an OLED TV. The second is what Maxwell calls the authentic self. For her. It's a self that spontaneously breaks into impromptu dance moves and wears T shirts that read, don't be a butthole to yourself and therapy is cool. This self has a passion for gold glitter and animal print and signs up for rec basketball team on a whim, something that she would never have never have allowed herself to do before. She can eat strawberries or a sandwich or an ice cream cone in public. This self is no longer concerned with being quiet and obedient or apologizing for her existence. And perhaps most important, she has no interest in making herself small. He and so you can go follow Sharon Maxwell, on Instagram on Tik Tok. There'll be links in the bio of the show. A reminder of where you can find that is first party.com forward slash 149. If you ever forget what episode you want to find, you can always go first viking.com forward slash podcast and then all of the episodes will be there the most recent at the top. Yeah, so that's atypical anorexia. Thanks for hanging out with me today. And a reminder if you're interested in going on vacation with me, go check out the information on that in the show notes and I will see you for the next episode at face value podcast. Stay fierce, fatty.

Episode 148 Transcript

Read transcript alongside audio.

Y'all listen to the Fierce Fatty Podcast, episode 148. The biggest scammers in the weight loss industry. Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker 0:23

Hey, fatties, welcome to this episode. So glad you're here. I think this episode is probably the one that has taken me the longest ever to research.

Unknown Speaker 0:37

Frustrated, frustrated without like, it took me.

Unknown Speaker 0:43

Like,

Unknown Speaker 0:45

many, many hours. I was like, Oh, this would be a nice quick thing to do. Maybe not.

Unknown Speaker 0:53

I was going to record the podcast early today it is now 10 to five I was like, well, I'll just quickly get it out at like 10am New had more research to do. So

Unknown Speaker 1:06

there are

Unknown Speaker 1:08

a number of links for for this that you'll find in the show notes for everything that I'm talking about, which is facebook.com forward slash 148. If you want to donate to the podcast, because there's no adverts, there's never been adverts. So my goodness. And if you'd like it without adverts then feel free to

Unknown Speaker 1:31

go over to PayPal, PayPal, and it's just first fatty if you want to send a donation over and if you don't, that's fine as well.

Unknown Speaker 1:42

There's actually a four part documentary series, which was the thing that inspired me and the documentary series. I'd watched it years ago, and I was just reminded of it it's called the men who made us thin. It's a British production. And it goes through, it's kind of it's almost it's half there being fat positive, but not, not really. There's a lot of mentions of the Oh words. And the presenter is kind of focusing on how it's bad to

Unknown Speaker 2:18

it's bad to say that everyone is fat, because people like him, who were only ever so slightly fat aren't unhealthy. But it's kind of like the way that he talks about

Unknown Speaker 2:32

fat fat people is like, well, of course they deserve all this barbaric treatment. But it's the ones that are like me, that's the kind of gist of

Unknown Speaker 2:43

of this person, the reporter so

Unknown Speaker 2:47

I mean,

Unknown Speaker 2:48

and then there's lots of good, there's lots of good, good kind of like, you're like, yes, you're talking about this amazing. And then they go and talk about like

Unknown Speaker 3:00

McDonald's, I was like for fuck sake, don't direct. So watch that with caution. There's links to watch all four parts. It's on daily motion. So you can watch them for free. If you are so inspired. It's four hours.

Unknown Speaker 3:17

And yeah, so but from that, and from other research, I was like, You know what, there's some really key kind of the biggest scammers and I thought it'd be nice, nice,

Unknown Speaker 3:29

lol, enraging to put the list together

Unknown Speaker 3:36

of maybe who's benefited the most from

Unknown Speaker 3:41

diet culture, weight loss, all that type of stuff. And like, I think, you know, it would be great if this is all in recent recent recent ish history in the last 200 years. I would love if I have more time and another episode to do maybe

Unknown Speaker 4:02

older history.

Unknown Speaker 4:05

Because here we're going back to I mean, the earliest is we're talking about 1830.

Unknown Speaker 4:11

But really the biggest scammers in the weight loss industry

Unknown Speaker 4:18

is white, white colonizers. Right? And I'm wondering if there are more kind of solid. This person was the one that did this in regards to

Unknown Speaker 4:36

and I know what we've spoken about it before on the show in regards to perpetuating the ideas of of thinness and whiteness and fatness and blackness being linked and you know, to be attractive, you need to be thin, aka white.

Unknown Speaker 4:53

And I think that's basically the biggest scam is in the weight loss industry is is what

Unknown Speaker 5:00

whiteness, basically whiteness, right?

Unknown Speaker 5:03

But this is more kind of recent history and what some rolls abroad is everyone on this list is white.

Unknown Speaker 5:12

Yeah. So but I think all of this that we're talking about today we cannot get away from the systems that are at play here of, of anti black racism of ableism

Unknown Speaker 5:28

of colonization, sexism, etc, etc etc right and the the big thing being anti black racism that mean that this type of stuff perpetuates and has for hundreds of years now. But anyway, saying all that, but keep that in mind I want you to actually like pick out individuals versus versus systems of oppression, right and so like the people who have really benefited the most from this bullshit, and we're going to start off with we spoken about him before a Dolphy quitter let in 1832. So he was the fella. He was a fella who invented the BMI, although it wasn't called the BMI at that time. So he was an astronomer, mathematician, statistician, and sociologist, who created the idea of the ideal man. So he used the words long Moya, which is actually

Unknown Speaker 6:33

average man, but when he was talking about average, he didn't mean average as in mediocre, he was more like average as in the best, right. And so he was prolific in doing a lot of research, and was really interested in finding out about what the average man was. And he said, If the this is a quote from Quizlet, if the average man were completely determined, we might consider him as a type of perfection, and everything differing from his proportion or condition would constitute deformity or disease, or monstrosity.

Unknown Speaker 7:15

So he's saying that those who are outside what is the ideal are diseased and monstrous or deformed. So he created the quitter let in quite ALEKS index, later renamed the BMI by measuring white European men their height and their weight and coming up with an arbitrary equation to calculate averages. And the reason people people like the BMI is because it's so simple, right? And that's the reason why it's so fucked up, you know, apart, aside from the fact that it's is bullshit is, you know, it's the, the idea that we're, you know, it's very simple. It's very simple, and it's very easy to say, it's people who fall outside of this are not ideal. And lo and behold, he did an all of his studies on on white men, European white men, and he actually his work actually constitute contributed to the creation of phrenology, which is a racist pseudoscience, which uses the human skull to falsely determine cultural and intellectual superior superiority of white people. So you know, like, you might see those, if you're not familiar with that, see those skulls and it'll have like, little, you know, oh, look, let's measure the length between the nose and the eyes. And let's look at this bony part here. And our turns out that white people are superior Surprise, surprise.

Unknown Speaker 8:50

Yeah, so his work really influenced a lot of eugenicist pseudoscience

Unknown Speaker 8:59

because it's the measuring of humans, right. And also grouping humans and races and, and so he benefited greatly because he was seen as an expert in the field. He had many different positions.

Unknown Speaker 9:18

Yeah, and basically, that, you know, that he did say, we don't want to use the quick lead index to measure health, we want to measure the ideal person, and he talked about beauty and things like that as well. Right. So that was 1832. So let's fast forward

Unknown Speaker 9:40

to 1972. So do you remember the name Ancel Keys, so add some keys in we've spoken about on the podcast before. He was famous for running the Minnesota starvation experience experiment, if you want to go into that and one

Unknown Speaker 10:00

Learn more about the Minnesota starvation experiment. Go to Episode Oh, I think it's 92. It's called the psychology of hunger.

Unknown Speaker 10:09

And in this study, he had a bunch of consequences a conscientiously objectors. This was in 1944.

Unknown Speaker 10:19

He had a bunch of them. And there was a lot of kind of shame around being a not being at war. And he wanted to see how to refeed people

Unknown Speaker 10:32

in war torn places. And so he did this study where he quote, starved, it was starvation experiment, and, and then referred the volunteers Guess how many calories they were on

Unknown Speaker 10:46

1800 calories a day.

Unknown Speaker 10:49

And in the study, which is unreasonable, I'm pointing that out is because that would be seen as a generous diet, you know, calorie amount on a diet, right, but, but the men in this study had terrible side effects, even when so they, when they were, they had a control time where they were fed, I think, 3600 calories for a few months. And then they did this for, I think,

Unknown Speaker 11:18

three, six months and go to the episode, it tells you more, episode nine to three to six months where they were doing the 1800 calories, and then they had another three months where they would refeeding back at the 3000 Plus calories.

Unknown Speaker 11:32

And during the time that they were in the starvation period, they just they basically had a really tough time. And then it didn't end when it was the refeeding time.

Unknown Speaker 11:46

The the effects were were really, really long term on these men. One man chopped off three of his fingers.

Unknown Speaker 11:56

One man had to be hostile but hospitalized well after the study because he couldn't stop eating, because he was he had developed but but develop developed BDD binge eating disorder. So later on, and so he had that knowledge from 1944. Five years later, he published a study, he used that information earlier to help with the war efforts to help people when they were coming across people who were who were starved.

Unknown Speaker 12:22

So that was 1944. And then, in 1972, he did a study where he popularized the use of Quickflix original index and renamed it the body mass index, again, made the same mistakes, steak is quite a lot using data from predominantly white men. And that study that he did, the National Institutes of Health then popularized the use of the body mass index as a way of establishing health.

Unknown Speaker 13:00

So what what really gets on my flaps about Ancel Keys is he saw the, the damage that starving people did to them, and, you know, starving them on still, you know, what would be now considered, you know, a sensible diet, right? And he saw what happened, and instead of championing work in regards to not prescribing diets, he went on to create the Mediterranean diets. So it's like, he was so close, he was so close.

Unknown Speaker 13:42

You know, his work was, you know, obviously, there was there was good work there. And he did, you know, very, very helpful things for for many people, but

Unknown Speaker 13:52

it's like he could have, it feels like he didn't put two and two together. You know, and and he just couldn't get out of that fatness was something bad.

Unknown Speaker 14:05

Yeah, and so him and his wife released a number of diet books later in the years. So that was Ancel Keys.

Unknown Speaker 14:13

Okay, so I don't know why I went straight to now selkies in 1974, because actually, we're gonna go to 1940 So let's go back in time, let's get back in time. So Louis, Dublin was the chief statistician for maternity Metropolitan Life Insurance Company and now was the biggest insurance company in the world at the time. So this fella Louie Dublin arbitrarily drew up a chart of the weight. Height

Unknown Speaker 14:46

of, of people who bought his insurance their insurance Met Life Insurance, and included frame size.

Unknown Speaker 14:55

small medium large, what Burfoot frame size

Unknown Speaker 15:00

means what what

Unknown Speaker 15:02

friends is like a human beings a tense leg. So he got people's heights weights and frame size, and concluded that the people of a certain size lived longer. But using only data from people who were 25 to 30 years old.

Unknown Speaker 15:22

And data which was self reported.

Unknown Speaker 15:28

Data from people who were rich enough to afford

Unknown Speaker 15:32

life insurance, that's going to be a lot of white people seeing a theme here, the theme here, female, a perfect white body.

Unknown Speaker 15:41

And so this this, you know, the chart that he drew up was not based on on evidence or any scientific study.

Unknown Speaker 15:49

He made the weight, which someone is considered too heavy, much lower than what it was originally. So previously, just a small percentage of the population, it'd be like, you know, how, you know, the doctor might say, Oh, your kids in the 95th percentile for height, and you know, that most of the kids are shorter than your kid, right? So that before, you know, the people who were the highest weight people, but like those were the people who had the biggest bodies, right? Were or were considered too big. So he changed it so that suddenly overnight, and you'll see this is happened a lot of times before when I say a lot of times, or two more times, this has happened big overnight changes to BMI, and what is classed as too big, suddenly, going from a small percentage of people who were considered too fat to half of the American population was reclassified as too fat. So with the stroke of a pen, he was Angel able to change people, people's premiums and charge people's premiums, increase the premiums due to their body size and establish that their bodies were wrong. I mean, I gotta give it to them, you know, for capitalists, you did it right. And his ideas were adopted by the medical establishment and then by the US government, and Louis Dublin's ideas contributed to the toward the creation of the modern diet industry and has had a massive cultural impact.

Unknown Speaker 17:26

Him doing this as lead doctors telling people in droves to lose weight. And people at the time in the 40s and 50s, rushed to pharmacies in panic, a huge market of consumers, consumers were convinced that they were too fat. And corporate America realized to sell the impossible dream of fineness, they could make an imaginable profits. So corporate America was like licking its lips. And I guess he you know, Louis W. Mills from corporate America, right, you know, was one of their folks was like, Hey, everybody. Yeah, you're too fat. You're too ugly. You're too this. You're too you know, you know, taking on the fat thing. Oh, don't worry, we've got the cure. Right, we've got the cure.

Unknown Speaker 18:18

So that was in the 1940s.

Unknown Speaker 18:21

Let's move to 1950.

Unknown Speaker 18:25

John Mayer.

Unknown Speaker 18:28

So John Mayer.

Unknown Speaker 18:33

So this guy is the person to come up with the idea that physical activity will help you lose weight.

Unknown Speaker 18:46

He was a French American scientist. And he established the popular notion that

Unknown Speaker 18:54

physical activity would help you lose weight. With this really incredibly poor quality observational study he completed on a handful of children.

Unknown Speaker 19:07

So he went to a summer camp, he looked at a group of girls, some of them were fat, some of them weren't fat. He noticed in that group of girls, one was a cheerleader. One was a ballet dancer. And on the whole, the smaller girls did more physical activity than the bigger girls. They didn't just look go into some camp and just have another look around. Right? And from that, he was like, ah, ha, I know why I know the mechanisms. Clearly. The people who are bigger or bigger because they don't do physical activity, and there was

Unknown Speaker 19:41

nothing popped up into his head to say,

Unknown Speaker 19:45

Could anything else be going on here? Could it be that the fat kids are shamed when they do when they do physical activity, and so they'd rather do other things? Could it be that

Unknown Speaker 19:57

having a bigger body

Unknown Speaker 20:00

Who came first and not wanting to engage in physical activity came second, could it be that the physical activities that were on offer at the camp that weekend didn't tickle their fancy? And they were more into rugby and archery? And that was all next weekend? You know? Could it be that they came from poor families who couldn't afford to send them to ballet classes, and buy them cheerleading outfits? And could they even fit into the cheerleading outfits? Because they only came in small sizes, you know, like,

Unknown Speaker 20:31

investigation here, John Mayer, but no, he was like, ah, ha, you're Rica, I've got it. And, you know, weight loss.

Unknown Speaker 20:44

Weight loss is easy to achieve temporarily through reducing your, what you eat, right? Weight loss from moving your body, really, really hard to achieve. It's just not doable. You know, weight loss from from physical exercise exercise, even though exercise can be something that's really health promoting for some people, not for everyone.

Unknown Speaker 21:12

It can be helpful, but it's not helpful to for people to lose weight. It's just not there's no, there's no

Unknown Speaker 21:20

evidence. And I mean, John, here was the first one to say it with his really shit study.

Unknown Speaker 21:29

You know, no matter how much you exercise, the calorie burning effects are limited by your metabolism. So Maya was incredibly ambitious and was zealous in spreading his faulty science to the US. He became an advisor to three presidents. And his ideas were published in numerous newspaper columns. His influence was such that it became public policy, and so did the deep flaws in his logic.

Unknown Speaker 21:56

And like to us now, it's like, well, of course, if you exercise you'll lose weight, right? Like it seems so logical, but you know, these ideas are not backed by science.

Unknown Speaker 22:08

So in 1954, we have a je Cremin. AJ Cremin was the first weight loss surgery doctor, and he was the first one to perform a gastric bypass Cremin and his team connected a patient's upper and lower intestines. It caused numerous medical problems such as uncontrollable diarrhea in patients, as well as other things. And we can you imagine, I mean, no weight loss surgery now is fucking horrendous. Never mind in 1954, the first weight loss patients and why did

Unknown Speaker 22:51

Ajay Cremin? Like, what?

Unknown Speaker 22:54

Where did this come from? Right? Like, where did this come from? Why did he why was he doing this? Right. And obviously 1954 this was happening because of diet culture of fat phobia. And because clearly, diets weren't working, we didn't have the we wouldn't have the need for weight loss surgery if diets worked. And so in 1954 people were resorting to which was then a very, very, you know, new and dangerous with no no understanding of long term effects surgery in order to become smaller, which leads me to believe you know, that's a that's a difficult decision. Right? And so it leads me to believe that they had done lots of things to try and lose weight before doing this right.

Unknown Speaker 23:48

So then, we had in 1959, metric cow, which was a brand of

Unknown Speaker 23:57

this milkshake, which was said to look like baby formula for weight control. And it was the first mass market diet product launch. So MetroCard and it came in like a can that you opened with a tin can opener and I watched a, an advert from them, and their ad weren't and the advert went, one out of two adults is overweight.

Unknown Speaker 24:21

One or two adults is overweight. Hmm, where is that from? Oh, remember, Mr. Dublin, Louis Dublin of MetLife, who classified 50% of the US population as to fat. And here we go. 1959 We've got adverts foot for it. One out of two adults is overweight. And because overweight not only detracts from appearance, it also impairs health and shortens life, you should lose weight. I mean, where is this information coming from impairs health and shortens life is coming from that insurance company.

Unknown Speaker 24:56

So you were to drink the product instead of meals?

Unknown Speaker 25:00

So it's the first meal replacement thing and they use that Dublin's fought flawed districts to persuade people to buy their product that convince more people that they had a problem through TV and magazine adverts, so that they can sell them the solution. Right? So Louis had said, we've got a problem. And advertisers would like more yawns. Thank you licking their lips, we've got the solution. So advertisers positioned it as something fun to drink a way of life. And so they've got an advert where it's like, having a cocktail party, they want a cocktail party, and you're there with your friends who were all thin and you're thin as the star of the advert. And you were like laughing drinking this fucking rank metric cow. Because especially like the shakes in early days were really bad tasting.

Unknown Speaker 25:54

And yeah, and so they make made it into the scene, this like really cool and social thing.

Unknown Speaker 26:01

And they made it. It was presented as a really aspirational way of life, and the matric how ads were huge successes, and they ran for years.

Unknown Speaker 26:12

And soon metric, hell had hundreds of imitators because consumers failures that getting thin was a recipe for business success. And by the early 1970s, diet, companies were turning over millions of dollars. And as the market became more competitive,

Unknown Speaker 26:34

it also became more extreme.

Unknown Speaker 26:38

So

Unknown Speaker 26:41

with the idea that weight loss came from also working out, we had the rise of in the 1970s. People like Richard Simmons, and he was the first person to make serious money by talking about exercise and weight loss. And so the Richard Simmons show was seen in 200 markets by over 5 million people five days a week. He had a best selling book saying Never say diets and his own gym and ran weight loss cruises where people shouted farewell to fat. He claims to have helped humanity lose 3 million pounds of fat with no evidence to support this claim. And he made his success by exploiting fat people exploiting

Unknown Speaker 27:35

people who are vulnerable. And a lot of people are like, Oh, Richard Simmons is so nice. He was He always wants to help people. And he could have like, you know, absolutely, he could have genuinely wanted to help people. But I mean, he had made his success over

Unknown Speaker 27:53

a method that doesn't work, which isn't science based.

Unknown Speaker 27:57

And

Unknown Speaker 28:00

and he was a raging fat phobe.

Unknown Speaker 28:04

And he used fat people in order to continue to be successful.

Unknown Speaker 28:11

So I mean, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Unknown Speaker 28:17

All right, so in 1977, we had the last chance diet by Robert Lin, a revolutionary new approach to weight loss, oh my goodness, in 1977 they cracked it.

Unknown Speaker 28:37

So the claim was people will lose up to 100 pounds by using it instead of food.

Unknown Speaker 28:45

And it was a high protein drink. So kind of like Metro cow, but they they're going balls to the walls now with you know, making it

Unknown Speaker 28:58

as nothingness in it as possible. So it was high protein and lacking essential nutrients and vitamins.

Unknown Speaker 29:06

So it began to be linked to serious health problems and death. This frickin drink.

Unknown Speaker 29:14

So the inventor of the diet, Dr. Robert Lin denied any wrongdoing, and the FDA eventually banned it. The industry responded by adding vitamins to meal replacement drinks and people just carried on buying them. The most popular of this tweaked version was SlimFast. So Dr. Robert Lin, he was like hey, I'm just gonna here's a drink with protein and I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor. I know what I'm talking about it so it was just protein. people died because they would they they they they couldn't humans can't survive just on this drink. Right there was no there was no nutrients and there's no vitamins, and it was seriously lacking nutrients. And the guy was just like

Unknown Speaker 30:00

When when FDA banned it, he was like Lola Lola fingers in is nothing wrong with it. I'm a doctor.

Unknown Speaker 30:07

Yeah, so slim fast. The natural way to lose weight was invented in 1977. That's when the FDA banned this drink. So he actually started the drink a little bit earlier than 1977. And so it was invented in 1977 by New York businessman Daniel Abraham. And so his strategy was to sell SlimFast cheaper and make it tastier than his medicinal tasting rivals, the SlimFast plan was sold as a natural and healthy way to lose weight. And so it's the same thing, meal replacement shakes, and then they also created fourth food products. And Daniel Abraham.

Unknown Speaker 30:52

At that time, I think individually, still is the most successful diet billionaire that has ever lived. He sold the company to Unilever in 2000 for $2.3 billion.

Unknown Speaker 31:09

He also created DEXA trim, which was a diet supplement, which increased the risk of hemorrhagic stroke alongside other nasty side effects. So he was in it for you know, getting getting the money out of the fatties. And when you hear him talking about, you know, watching an interview with him, he, you know, really has contempt for for fat folks.

Unknown Speaker 31:40

Yeah, so he has made some some money, a lot of money 2.3 billion off the backs of fatties.

Unknown Speaker 31:50

Okay, so

Unknown Speaker 31:53

going back in time again to 1963 I thought I had these in these in time order. Apparently I didn't.

Unknown Speaker 32:00

The Atkins diet. So the so the Atkins Atkins

Unknown Speaker 32:07

as in a keto diet, so it's a Keto ketogenic keto

Unknown Speaker 32:13

that was invented, like in the 1950s 10, something around there. And actually, it wasn't a diet for weight loss. It was a diet for for children with epilepsy, right. And so for a long time, it was just a used as a diet for children with epilepsy. And it still is today, because it's effective as something

Unknown Speaker 32:39

for pay for children with epilepsy, epilepsy, right. And so in 1963, Robert Atkins came along. And he didn't like diets that met drinking real meal replacements or counting calories. And so he decided he could lose weight just by cutting out carbs, and using this keto diet.

Unknown Speaker 33:01

And this was based on a false idea that certain food types are responsible for weight gain. So his book a diet revolution, so hundreds and 1000s of copies a week, and he was the first international diet guru. And despite the criticisms over the next 40 years, he built an empire with a range of low carb foods. So there's no evidence to show that the use of the Atkins diet or his products results in long term weight loss or improved health. Unless you're a child with epilepsy, then you could just do any type of keto diet if that was you don't need to do Atkins. So you know, there was a big hoo ha about oh, X, Atkins died because he had a heart attack or something. I was looking into this. And actually he he died. So this is what happened. This, this is what I've seen.

Unknown Speaker 33:57

There's an icy sidewalk in New York, he's fell slipped his head, I think he went into a coma then died. But then

Unknown Speaker 34:06

there there was leaked medical records, his wife refused to let them do an autopsy. Apparently, this is all apparently leaked autopsy records to say that he had problems with his heart. But then other people came and said, Actually, it was just some type of minor thing. And he was I think he was in his 70s. So it was not that scandalous. But some people are like, Aha, here's proof that the Atkins diet didn't work because the Atkins founder died of coronary heart coronary heart disease.

Unknown Speaker 34:42

And he was so fat when he died. He like they mentioned that how many pounds he was he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't so bad when he died. I think he was just like an average weight of a man you know?

Unknown Speaker 34:55

But they were like, Haha, this shows that this diet doesn't work well. I mean,

Unknown Speaker 35:04

It isn't one man. Right? You can't say our diet doesn't work because he might have died from a heart condition. Who knows? Right, but, I mean, that's what really, is this diet gonna make people thin? Because that is what are people going on diets for is thin increased health improved health for whatever. And there is no, there is no evidence right. And you know he was going to die it eventually he lived to 70 Plus, I mean, which is I think slightly less than the average but I mean,

Unknown Speaker 35:43

is this black and white thinking that I'm like, I don't like this black and white thinking of haha, see, you know, we don't know what else is going on in his life. And I mean, he's fell and slipped and we might have fell because he had a heart attack. Who knows? We don't know. Right? And even if he did

Unknown Speaker 35:58

us fat positive people are not judging people.

Unknown Speaker 36:03

In that way anyway, so.

Unknown Speaker 36:06

So that's the scandal. Yeah. I don't know what to make about it.

Unknown Speaker 36:12

Either way, Atkins doesn't make you thin.

Unknown Speaker 36:15

And he got very rich and became a international diet group guru on the back that it will make you them.

Unknown Speaker 36:24

So Jean NIDA rich, the founder of Weight Watchers.

Unknown Speaker 36:31

So she is frog.

Unknown Speaker 36:35

She was this is in the 1960s Right. So Jean began giving talks to housewives who wanted to slim after she had lost weight herself. She then decided to franchise a business by having copycat genes all over the world giving speeches to groups of people and charging for the privilege. In 1967, during the time of Twiggy thinness being in Weight Watchers came to the UK, the head of the UK operations Bernice Weston.

Unknown Speaker 37:09

She is a giant bellend said you can go and watch it Episode One

Unknown Speaker 37:16

quote when it comes to eating fat people are basically very stupid.

Unknown Speaker 37:23

Thanks, bunnies.

Unknown Speaker 37:25

You can submit it's

Unknown Speaker 37:28

so Weight Watchers owns to statistics and quote, evidence of success has shown that their lifestyle change is not effective. It's not effective, and only a tiny percentage of people maintaining weight loss past five years. So Weight Watchers trance was transformed into a small domestic business into a global super brand under the financial direction of Richard Sambre, who worked there for 25 years. And he said

Unknown Speaker 37:59

okay, so this is the finance

Unknown Speaker 38:02

director of Weight Watchers for 25 years, he said Weight Watchers is successful because those who fail have to come back and do it again. That's where your business comes from.

Unknown Speaker 38:15

So he was quite happily talking to the to the journalist saying yeah, I mean, that's our business is repeat customers.

Unknown Speaker 38:25

weightwatchers chief scientific officer said she was really mad that he said that she was like, well, he doesn't know anything. He's not here anymore. So I think he I don't like it. Basically, she was mad. But then she said there's a reason that we've been here for 60 years is because people come back to us time and time again.

Unknown Speaker 38:50

Oh,

Unknown Speaker 38:53

really? Like why are you bragging about that? Ah, Weight Watchers is a revenue of $1 billion a year. Today, Weight Watchers is based in the very building where Louis Dublin from MetLife insurance company paved the way for the diet industry all those years ago.

Unknown Speaker 39:14

Okay, so let's move to the 1990s. And

Unknown Speaker 39:25

you've got an honorable mention here for a

Unknown Speaker 39:28

normal person but a pill.

Unknown Speaker 39:32

I guess I could try and find out who created it. It was probably a team of people anyway. Fen Fen so fenfluramine slimming pills, so methamphetamines previous to this methamphetamines were prescribed in the 50s and 60s to lose weight.

Unknown Speaker 39:47

And then they were banned

Unknown Speaker 39:55

because they realized that they weren't giving housewives meth

Unknown Speaker 39:59

but then

Unknown Speaker 40:00

And it paved the way for fenfluramine. phentolamine which was called Fen Fen. And then that was released for sale after meth was was banned. And it was lauded as a dream drug and a miracle cure. It was an appetite suppressant. It was addictive and it killed many people and it has long term effects on the people who took it. The manufacturers Wyeth pharmaceuticals so we're going to hold a pharmaceutical company whole

Unknown Speaker 40:34

responsible for this one. Why is pharmaceuticals knew of the harm that their product what the harm of their products and withheld this evidence even when they were under investigation, in order to cash in on the moral panic made up around the made up a word epidemic.

Unknown Speaker 40:56

So

Unknown Speaker 40:59

Fen Phen Fen Fen by the way, it's built pH en dash f en.

Unknown Speaker 41:08

And the thing is with these

Unknown Speaker 41:10

these diet, diet drugs, we did an episode on diet drugs.

Unknown Speaker 41:15

It's always the same story. This is a miracle drug that is gonna make people thin. And so how does that work? How does it work? It's basically speeding up your heart. Well, and the FDA approves it because being found is the worst thing ever. And it doesn't matter if fat people die because you know, at least at least they'll be fat and dead huh lol

Unknown Speaker 41:38

you know, being sarcastic there with that lol.

Unknown Speaker 41:42

And, you know, even in recent years of these, you know, drugs that are coming out, it's the same shit. There's no we don't have the evidence. You know, they'll have a short term study. People lost weight. Yeah, but then they died. You know? So we got to, you know, when when we have these new drugs coming to market looking at what, what they do, and what long term evidence that we have for it?

Unknown Speaker 42:10

Yeah, because it's probably not good. Okay, now my personal

Unknown Speaker 42:17

I hate this guy. He is, I feel like he is really a villain.

Unknown Speaker 42:25

Professor Philip James, British guy 9095. He set up the international Oh, word task force by OTF.

Unknown Speaker 42:36

He looked at the recommended BMI is created by Louis Dublin in the 1940s. So it's 1995 by now, I looked at the recommended BMI created by an insurance company and arbitrarily dropped the recommended BMI due to that faulty evidence.

Unknown Speaker 43:00

This was then adopted by the World Health Organization.

Unknown Speaker 43:04

Millions more people became classed as fat again, overnight.

Unknown Speaker 43:13

The IoT f the international obesity task force was funded. Who were they funded by? What do we think? What do we think? Tell me your answer. Who were they funded by?

Unknown Speaker 43:26

Weight loss companies? Yes.

Unknown Speaker 43:28

Weight loss drug companies who gave a number of payments to Philip James totaling 1 million pound or 1.2 million US dollars.

Unknown Speaker 43:43

And he's like, Yeah, who cares that they they're the ones who funded this research.

Unknown Speaker 43:48

If even if it's even if it's false, at least we're going to get people to be less fat.

Unknown Speaker 43:55

That says his attitude.

Unknown Speaker 43:57

Like it doesn't matter if it's if it's if it's wrong, if it's arbitrary because if we tell more people that they're fat, then less people will be fat. Like what?

Unknown Speaker 44:10

You know more people can be treated for the disease of fatness.

Unknown Speaker 44:16

Okay 2006 John Franco dicta Capello invented the key diet Ke Ke Ke diet which is Ke Ke tau

Unknown Speaker 44:28

but it was with a twist because we need to get more extreme because you know that doesn't work doesn't work doesn't work. We need new branding. This is what we do. We need new branding. We knew we need a new twist. Okay, and so this diet the KE diet, also known as the feeding tube diet.

Unknown Speaker 44:46

A doctor will put a feeding tube into the patient and is fed a proprietary mixture which is 270 calories or

Unknown Speaker 45:00

De through the feeding tube for a specific number of days,

Unknown Speaker 45:06

they then come back to the office have the feeding tube out, and then presumably go away

Unknown Speaker 45:13

with a temporarily smaller body, probably disordered eating, and then we'll then way more than when they started. I'm absolutely fucking wild.

Unknown Speaker 45:30

And so it was, it was the mixture was

Unknown Speaker 45:35

keto based, right. So the, you know,

Unknown Speaker 45:40

protein

Unknown Speaker 45:44

270 calories a day. Can you imagine?

Unknown Speaker 45:49

Okay, so 2007 We have Kevin Trudeau,

Unknown Speaker 45:54

a marketing man with no medical training, has a diet book called The Weight Loss Cure, they don't want you to know about reported $5 million in sales and is based on a discredited 1960s diet, where you eat a tiny amount of calories a day and ingest hormones that can be extracted from the urine of pregnant women.

Unknown Speaker 46:21

I love the fact that this one's been descript discredited, but although the rest of fucking every other diet hasn't been discredited yet.

Unknown Speaker 46:29

So that was a New York Times number one bestseller, The Weight Loss Cure, they don't want you to know.

Unknown Speaker 46:36

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 46:38

So in 2008, Syed Yu Jiang and Artem Petkov, created new, I was surprised that NUMA is actually that old because new and feels like it's about five years old, right?

Unknown Speaker 46:54

And you're thinking, Who are these creators? Are they nutritionists? Are they therapists, because NUMA is all about, you know, psychology? No, they are to computer scientists. And they trick people into thinking they're getting cognitive behavioral therapy. Their website says neum is grounded in science. It's at the heart of everything we do, is it?

Unknown Speaker 47:25

Because

Unknown Speaker 47:28

they have a so I went into the like this, or they have a research bank. Oh, oh, love it. No, I'm gonna look at all the studies. And they will they've got the links to the studies. And then they tells you what the study says in a sentence.

Unknown Speaker 47:46

That that laughable, they really are laughable. I scroll all the way down to the one study that says,

Unknown Speaker 47:55

from the 40 Plus studies that they've got, because they're like, We love science. And this is how this is how these diet companies are tricky. Motherfuckers because if you said, Okay, so we're backed by science. Okay, I believe you want to do it in a more digging? We use cognitive behavioral therapy, we use psychology. Oh, that sounds fancy. must be true. But it's if you still don't believe us, check out our 40 Plus scientific studies. You've got 40 Plus scientific studies, they must be great. All right, I believe you now, but even if you still don't let's look at the studies. And that's what I did. So I had a look at the study days.

Unknown Speaker 48:44

So one of them has got mention of amount of people who have

Unknown Speaker 48:51

like 30 something 1000 people I was like, amazing. Love it. Lots of people. That's good, right when we had that, that that's the episode I did a few weeks ago on how to how to decipher studies, right? And so one of the things that studies do is they'll say, we love to three people. Turns out blah, blah, blah, and it's like really three people or you know, 10 people, but this had 30 plus 1000 people great after a great start.

Unknown Speaker 49:24

They said okay, so they said the summary of this study is 77.9%

Unknown Speaker 49:29

reported a decrease in body weight while they were using the app.

Unknown Speaker 49:35

Okay, that doesn't sound that good. If someone is using the app, shouldn't they shouldn't be 100% of people losing weight. Okay, well, let's go set this round up to 80% 80%. I'll pay ya percent. All right. How much why did they lose?

Unknown Speaker 49:56

Well, looking at it most lost less

Unknown Speaker 50:00

Some 5% of

Unknown Speaker 50:04

their weight. Okay, so 5% We're looking at a 200 pound person, that means that person lost 10 pounds.

Unknown Speaker 50:14

And what's the other thing that we said about studies, specifically weight loss? Weight Loss studies, do you remember about the time timing? With all diets, weight loss is very easy to achieve. Normally, depending on how many diets you've done, the more diet you've done, it's harder, but

Unknown Speaker 50:36

you will lose weight initially, and then three to five years, that's when the weight comes back on and more. They looked at users over 18 months. Of course, of course. So they're there fantabulous data to show that 80% of people lost around 5% of their body weight in 18 months, doesn't sound that amazing, does it?

Unknown Speaker 51:06

And that's about the you know, that's less like the top line of reading that's reading the study, if we go in deeper,

Unknown Speaker 51:14

will get more information, but I was like, shit, you know, it's not gonna get any better than that is it? I mean, this is what this is what they're bragging about, you know?

Unknown Speaker 51:22

And, and so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it is 77.9% of people who lost way bigger in life and give him the benefit of doubt that that's a good thing and give him the you know, it's a tiny amount of weight, a tiny amount of weight

Unknown Speaker 51:39

and he's people who are self reporting.

Unknown Speaker 51:43

Alright, so, I love this, this post by Reagan chest and I'm going to give you a quote from it.

Unknown Speaker 51:50

About noon their commercials are chock full of diet advice that is old as the hills and has no research to back it as actually creating sustained weight loss. Brackets eat grapes instead of raisins. Drink wine isn't a beer, drink a glass of water if you're hungry, blah, blah, blah. And one of the programs seems to be based on the old eat watery, fiery bulky foods so you'll feel fuller advice that doesn't work because your body is a sophisticated piece of machinery and not a lawn mower in 1987 1987 called it called and wants its shitty diet advice back. Moreover, how can they claim to be brand new while also claiming that they you helped to keep the weight off for life? That claim would have had to be backed by some serious long term research. In order to be credible. I asked them for research I asked in an email through their website contact and on social media, including one memorable thread that's had 758 comments to which they replied directly to 757 who Guess whose comment did not receive a response

Unknown Speaker 53:00

Reagan's common

Unknown Speaker 53:02

Yeah, so it is hilarious. Hilarious.

Unknown Speaker 53:07

They're like we're a brand new Daya lifelong weight loss. How do you know that you're offering what lifelong weight loss when you haven't been around for the for the lot for life for me with lives? You know?

Unknown Speaker 53:25

The reason why neum is so big is because they got a shit ton of investor back backing.

Unknown Speaker 53:32

They were anticipated to go to IPO initial public offering. And that would value neum in excess of $6 billion.

Unknown Speaker 53:44

So neum

Unknown Speaker 53:46

right, these companies right, what they're what they are a lot of these companies what they are, is they're just sophisticated marketing companies, right? Because they have this product which is is

Unknown Speaker 53:57

shit, big pile of shit. And they do some very good wizardry to trick us. People are very passionate about neum whenever people mentioned no more online there's gonna be people who will say no, they're different they talk about psychology, but

Unknown Speaker 54:20

it's

Unknown Speaker 54:22

no they don't they

Unknown Speaker 54:26

give you a very very low calorie diet no matter what your goals are. If you say you want to be healthy if you want to say you want to lose weight, they'll give you the same fucking thing and

Unknown Speaker 54:37

they will give you they do the coding that you know red foods, green foods yellow foods, right the same shit that Weight Watchers was doing right points and what's the other one in the UK? There's a big one Slimming World in the UK. And they've been around what since the 60s.

Unknown Speaker 54:55

It's the same fucking advice has been going around for you for forever. There

Unknown Speaker 55:00

his food is bad. And if you eat it, you're gonna get fat. So don't eat it. Ah, you've lost weight.

Unknown Speaker 55:07

Don't talk to us in a year or two because we don't want to know when you're fat again.

Unknown Speaker 55:11

But they've got they've got millions and meat they've got they have

Unknown Speaker 55:16

had so much funding. That's why every single fucking podcast has a known advert is because of the gargantuan amount of funding that they have. Because they are smart marketers, because they've said, Okay, there's a gap in the market for a good app. And they've won awards for their styling of the app for the for the user experience, right? They've done a good job at that. But they are charlatans they are scammers because that diet doesn't work and their own evidence shows it but they hope people are

Unknown Speaker 56:00

a trustworthy trusting of them enough to not look about evidence.

Unknown Speaker 56:05

You know?

Unknown Speaker 56:08

This motherfucker did so sorry. That's my dog. That's my dog. Coughing

Unknown Speaker 56:14

All right, so 2009 We've got Dr. Oz. That giant human turd.

Unknown Speaker 56:22

Lawmakers called out OLS for describing certain supplements on his show as quote, magic Weight Loss Cure and, quote The number one miracle in a bottle. Lawmakers had a hearing and specifically took aim at Oz's promotion of pure green coffee beans, which claims to help users lose 20 pounds in four weeks and 16% body fat in three months. The FTC the Federal Trade Commission sued the products Florida based marketers

Unknown Speaker 56:55

and won a $9 million settlement. And with Dr. Oz, it's kind of like well, if he wasn't scamming people, then he would lose his license. It's actually really difficult to lose your medical license. You have to basically be killing people.

Unknown Speaker 57:11

You have to really, really fuck up. Really fuck up. Telling people about scammy fake miracle cures on a TV show isn't going to cut it. Unfortunately, he has to kill some people and I mean,

Unknown Speaker 57:30

I mean, these this shit that he's showing, you know, has it killed people probably, you know, this is caffeine shit and shit your pants stuff and who the hell knows. But that says that's Dr. Oz is that this show since 2009. He was on Oprah. Oprah gave him a show.

Unknown Speaker 57:53

And that's, he says, basically I lie because it's more entertaining. I need to give flowery, flowery language.

Unknown Speaker 58:03

And when someone is on his show when a product is on a show, it's called the OLS effect. They they make they make a shit ton of money. Millions. Because he says hey, here's a miracle cure. Here's what here's what's gonna make you fucking green coffee beans. I mean, you can't make this shit up.

Unknown Speaker 58:26

The Dukane diet in 2010 his book became the best selling diet book in the UK. The Dukan diet is high protein low carb, Atkins do can expanded massively beyond selling diets creating a business built on books, foods and health supplements. He became fitness and became famous because it said that

Unknown Speaker 58:46

what's her face the princess that's married to William

Unknown Speaker 58:52

Kate Middleton, that Kate Middleton and her friends and family did the dukan diet to become thinner for her wedding. His business is worth a reported 96 million. He makes claims that his products are quote miracle calorie burners. But no evidence of such He also claims that 25% of people who do his diet, keep the weight off for for four years. And that seems to be picked out of his asshole. Because there's no evidence. All right, so 2013 Dean Kaman Dean is the person who invented the

Unknown Speaker 59:35

wheel sad thing on wheels segway.

Unknown Speaker 59:40

He created the Segway. He didn't stop there. He was like I'm not done with creating stuff. He also created a machine, a machine assisted bulimia device. He created a machine assisted bulimia device called Aspire assist to pump the stomach's contents through

Unknown Speaker 1:00:00

retube which has been served surgically implanted into the abdomen.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:07

It's horrifying. It's horrifying. Basically, it's surgery to give someone bulimia, they eat food. Then they have a

Unknown Speaker 1:00:19

wire, a tube that's going directly into their stomach coming out of their tummy

Unknown Speaker 1:00:25

in an open wound, and there's a port there, they connect it to this pump, and then they stand over the toilet, and they empty the contents of their stomach into the toilet.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:40

Here's a quote. This is the first time that I look at a device that was approved by the FDA and I am absolutely utterly and totally appalled that it was approved, says Joseph Guttman, an endocrinologist and diabetic diabetic technologist under a shoe that's diabetes. in Pembroke Pines, Florida who has treated patients with Oh word for 30 years, Guttman says, oh my goodness, that's his name Guttman, and he treats fat people. So as he put together a group of 750 physicians who want to sue the FDA to take the device off the market, his ultimate goal is to get 4000 doctors to join him. It is the most pathetic exhibition of ignorance on the part of our agency, the FDA, it is nothing but a bad trick. It's like a bad joke.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:30

And so, surprise, surprise, the FDA approved it after a very small trial.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:39

Side effects the port valve can cause infections the tube can leak. Some experts fear that the device might trigger eating disorders and no shit Sherlock.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:54

nuv final one, our final one we're getting to 2021 and we're giving a shout out to Paul Brunton and Richard Hall.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:08

Paul Brunton was the lead researcher who released the jaw wiring device called dental slim.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:16

You know what I had a I had an epiphany about dental slim. I've been reading it reading it as dental ism.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:26

Ever since it came out in 2021, I've been reading that and I did a podcast about it and have read the word dental slim, because it's all one word as dental ism.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:38

And I was like, how are they changed the name of it? No, I just my brain had just was like, No, it's called dental dental slim.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:49

And so we've got the lead researcher. We've also got you know, authors of the study the study into this dental swim. The split study is garbage, by the way.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:59

We've got Richard Hall

Unknown Speaker 1:03:04

and

Unknown Speaker 1:03:07

Paul Brunton

Unknown Speaker 1:03:10

we've got front and then we've got people who created the device

Unknown Speaker 1:03:18

who were on the

Unknown Speaker 1:03:21

author's they were the researchers and authors into this device. Right and so turns out that Dr. Hall, Richard Hall,

Unknown Speaker 1:03:31

and the University of Otago, which is where Paul Brunton is from and then another fella called doctor, but don't ski. They are all owners of the device. So Dr. Hall 40%, but Dansby 30 and University of Otago. 30.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:51

And then they kept it secret, right? They kept it secret.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:54

They basically I haven't even told you what this fucking thing is, is I did an episode on it. But in case you didn't listen to it, it's a jewel wiring device where you have like these brackets on your teeth and then magnetically locked shut.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:08

And basically, you can only have a liquid diet and that is why they think that it's in that's the weight loss mechanism.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:16

Doesn't work and has terrible side effects.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:21

But yeah, they did this study, and the study was done by the people who own the fucking device.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:34

So that is something that the ethics committee should have known or spotted before given the study the green light, and there were no conflicts of interest stated in the paper. So they are fucking scam scam scam a ruse. And not only that, even if the study was legit, they are still people who have made a jaw wiring device.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:00

In 2021, we're not in this fucking 40s anymore. It's 2021

Unknown Speaker 1:05:08

Yeah, other shoutouts to the other big diet companies. Herbalife HMR Boston Jenny Craig lindora Medifast Nutri system

Unknown Speaker 1:05:23

profile by Sanford simply good foods which is actually Atkins Weight Watchers.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:29

Yeah and you notice how a few of these Herbalife

Unknown Speaker 1:05:34

I think Nutrisystem, Medifast. They are all

Unknown Speaker 1:05:41

M. L. M. 's multi level marketing companies which add on, add on another layer of scam because they're scamming people with the diets. And then they're scamming people who are working for them by getting them to pay to work for them, to then scam people to work underneath them. It's just scam a rific. They're the most scam tastic of the diet companies. So so there you go, there's an overview of the biggest scammers in the weight loss industry. Who is your, I don't wanna say favorite.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:19

Who's your like, I hate them. I think Louis Dublin, like Louis Dublin, from the MetLife has a lot to answer for but

Unknown Speaker 1:06:30

that British guy who's

Unknown Speaker 1:06:34

a giant bellend what's his name? Professor, Philip James, he also

Unknown Speaker 1:06:43

is Pooh poohing. So, study came out, Katherine Fleagle, did this lead the study into looking at all the data, they did a

Unknown Speaker 1:06:55

roundup of all the data about

Unknown Speaker 1:06:59

mortality risk of, of different PMIs. And

Unknown Speaker 1:07:06

I think it was 40 studies with many, many, many people. And the study showed that people who were

Unknown Speaker 1:07:13

Oh word had

Unknown Speaker 1:07:17

decreased mortality than people who are, quote, normal weight.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:23

And he's just talking shit about her. I mean, like, she's not doing she's not doing the research. She isn't. She was what what they did was they did a meta analysis of other people's research. You she she was just like, here's, here's what the information says mother hugger. And he's like, I don't like it. I think fat people are awful.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:46

Yeah, he, he gets all my tips and most

Unknown Speaker 1:07:53

I, you know, like some of these people.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:57

They I think they genuinely

Unknown Speaker 1:08:04

do they, I think some people do care about like some people who are in the world of,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:10

oh, research, care about fat people and health.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:16

I'm saying this with really, like,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:18

dare lie.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:21

But a lot of these people are just like, dollar signs in their eyeballs.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:28

You know, if I was deeply unethical, and I had a time machine, you mean going back and like starting a diet company?

Unknown Speaker 1:08:36

I mean, you know, probably got better things to do. But

Unknown Speaker 1:08:40

no,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:43

that's it, you know, if you're unethical then talking about,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:49

you know, get helping people to temporarily lose weight will make you money, you know.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:58

But you got to be a sophisticated marketer to stand out from the crowd. And that's the what the difference is with the these folks, right, because there's probably been lots of diets that have come and go. But

Unknown Speaker 1:09:13

these are either the most outrageous, or

Unknown Speaker 1:09:17

the ones that have stuck around the longest. And they had something new, like think about Weight Watchers, they had something new because they had the group meetings that was never done before. New had something new because they they were, you know, out in 2013 on the app game, that was new and they're like, oh, psychology, right? Soon enough new is going to be the old deal might take 20 years before and people are like oh yeah numerous for like middle aged ladies or whatever. But

Unknown Speaker 1:09:49

then there's going to be something new right? And it's going to have to be even smarter. I mean, there's gonna be something new every single fucking day but

Unknown Speaker 1:09:58

because

Unknown Speaker 1:10:00

I think that we, as consumers have become

Unknown Speaker 1:10:07

more attuned to knowing that weight loss advice doesn't work. And so they're having to take a new approach and make it about what is in fashion, or coming into fashion. And that would be

Unknown Speaker 1:10:27

body positivity at the moment, right?

Unknown Speaker 1:10:30

And mental health and all that type of stuff. And so they are absolutely going to do that. And when that is out of fashion, or there's a new thing that is more more sexy, then they're going to do that.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:45

And I really think that, you know, these folks, they might not have meant to be, but a lot of these folks are deeply unethical. And I've caused a lot of harm, some more than others, and some maybe didn't mean to,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:02

but they have ideas in their mind and have run with it, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:09

to the detriment of a lot of people are not just fat people.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:16

So they can Oh, fuck off is what I think. All right, well, thank you for hanging out with me today. I'm gonna go take duty for a little walk. It's dark now. Oh, my goodness. My be video is failed again. I don't know why.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:29

You know, you know, once a year, I have to have things go wrong. And two weeks in a row. My video has failed. So who the fuck knows why

Unknown Speaker 1:11:38

I think my phone just from time to time, so it's just like, fuck yeah, I'm done. I've had enough of your bullshit, Vinny.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:46

But I've got

Unknown Speaker 1:11:48

rollerskating tonight. And then tomorrow, some Internen friend of the show is coming around my house and we're recording some

Unknown Speaker 1:12:01

videos she is playing in the video. She's playing a wellness influencer, who says, you know,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:10

shit to me. Like I guy. Have you had some color hair up your bomb. And you know, I'm playing the fat person who's like, well,

Unknown Speaker 1:12:20

so we'll see how that goes with other games. And then before we get some lunch, and then oh, I've got a day on Friday with the same guy.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:29

This will be date number five, with the same guy that I mentioned a couple of episodes ago. So

Unknown Speaker 1:12:38

this is the most updated someone in like

Unknown Speaker 1:12:44

a number of years.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:47

I was like, I think I've been single for three years. You know what, I was looking at something the other day and I was like, oh shit, man, I've been sick for five fucking years. What?

Unknown Speaker 1:12:56

I think you know, the pandemic is like, messed up with timelines. Right? You know, it's kind of like because those years didn't exist. And so, in my mind, I'm like, Yeah, but real human years. It's three years because two years we were like, inside and the shit. And now we're hot. You know? What now we're kind of half coming out. And so these are half years. Anyway, so So yeah, so yeah, the most updated someone so who knows how it's gonna go so far. So far, so good. So

Unknown Speaker 1:13:25

I'll keep you updated with whatever happens even if it goes tits up.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:29

And then I can spill the gas because I know that he he's not listening, or I won't get

Unknown Speaker 1:13:38

all right. Well, thanks for hanging out today. We'll see you in the next episode of ie.

Episode 147 Transcript

Read transcript alongside audio.

You're listening to the Fierce Fatty Podcast episode 147. One of you want to support a fat person to lose weight? Let's do it.

Hello, and welcome to this episode. Nice to see you. Thanks for being here. So this episode is for is for everyone. But specifically this episode is for people who are fat or who are pursuing intuitive eating or Health at Every Size or adjust, you know, living living life as a fat person. And they have someone who is in their life who is worried about the fact that they are fat, is worried about the fact that they have are not losing weight. And this is to play for them. Okay, so this episode is for the person who is concerned about a loved one concern because they are fat, and are concerned about their health, and has hopes that their loved one will lose weight. Everyone can listen to it. I mean, you probably want to the fat people probably want to listen to it just to make sure I don't you know, don't know what I might say, but I know what I'm gonna say. But feel free to listen to it. Even if you're not someone who's telling someone to lose weight is probably going to be quite cathartic, right, it's probably going to hear hear the things that you wish that you would have heard or someone would say to someone that loves you or who is who was concerned about you. So, I've been I've been thinking about this episode for a long time for a really long time. And I keep putting it off because I'm worried that it's going to be imperfect. And the thing is, it is going to be imperfect you know, I'm so I'm so concerned about this might be the only chance that I have with folks who are not currently fat positive. And I want to make it so impactful and so informative and make it understandable so that something good comes out of this right and I realized that this can't be perfect. This is not going to be the perfect response to all of the questions that you might have as someone who loves a fat person and he's concerned about it. And there's going to be this like what if situations but I thought about all of the common things that I hear from people who I'm working with who say but what about this, but what about that, but what about blah blah blah and answer those things for you. Okay, and as well as thinking about this like why do I want to be to be perfect? Well, because I was thinking it's because what if someone is listening in bad faith? What if someone is listening to say like fuck you Vinnie. You're a piece of shit. And kind of picking apart every single word that I use type of thing. And you know what, that the episode is not for those people but not for people who are not listening in in good faith and open to hearing a different perspective. And so really, I'm I'm talking to people who genuinely care about fat folks and love them and want what's best for them right? Not for people who are like I hate fat people and nothing that is nothing that you say is going to change that if that's you then I mean then I don't know Yeah, this is well yeah, maybe maybe you might have your mind change probably not but this is for people who are listening in good faith. All right, so I started thinking about this episode because I came across a Am I an asshole on post on Reddit? If you're not familiar with it, it will normally start a i t a Am I the asshole right and so the am I an asshole so that person will ask them read it. What do you think? What does everyone think? And then people will say I think you are an asshole. I think nobody everyone sucks here or nobody is an asshole or something else. And this is a post stuff that I read, I'm gonna read out to you. And by the way for those who are listening who are fat, I'm going to be using the old words during this and I might be mentioning some some weight, or you know, pounds and things like that. I will just a heads up if that's I'm going to be taking out as much as I can but I want to some people might not understand our fat, you know, our in fat language type of thing. Okay, so this is a post, which has since been deleted, but I'll leave I'll leave a link on for the there's a there's a what is it called Wayback Machine Time Machine Wayback Machine, you can go back to old Reddit posts that have been deleted in case you ever wanted to know that you can do that. So I'm 26. I'm 27 years old, and I have a girlfriend of six years who I live with. When we first got together. She had an athletic body and all that changed the past couple of years when she got promoted, and started working longer hours. She started smoking weed every night claiming that his it helped her relax after a hard day's work. She also started eating like shit. She's about 19 pounds heavier than when we first met on on her five to frame it definitely shows. After ignoring or ignoring my subtle hints for the last year, I finally sat her down last month, and said enough is enough. She needs to make an effort to get healthy. She agreed that and she agreed and asked me to help since I'm in great shape shape myself. I did everything to support her in losing weight I paid for an expensive supplement program. I woke up early in the morning and repaired her healthy lunches so she could take to work. And when she got home from work, I had a healthy dinner prepared on the table. I added her to my gym plan and even bought her a road bicycle. Today I borrowed her car and found fast food wrappers everywhere, along with receipts of recent purchases. This led me to check our joint bank account and I saw she's been picking up fast food every day since we've had that discussion about her getting healthy. Not only that she that she also was buying fast food during work suggesting that she has been thrown away the meals I have prepared. This really pissed me off, I confronted her. And she started crying and took accountability for her lack of discipline, discipline. I was telling my girlfriend's sister about this ordeal, and she said I was being controlling and an asshole. But from my perspective, I think we just want her to be healthy. I think I went above and beyond in my approach and how I dealt with this being five two and gaining 19 pounds of fat rapidly. And she's only getting heavier. She's she's setting herself up for heart disease, diabetes, and could cause issues to her knees. Also, we don't even have kids yet. So to be gaining this type of weight so rapidly is definitely concerning to me for her health. Okay, so I read that and I was like, I really wish that I could have a one on one conversation with this person. And now this might sound like this might sound like you, this might be your situation. Or you could say oh, I'd never be so mean as to do what this person has done. I am just worried about my loved ones health. And I just say I'm worried about your health. And I think you should lose weight, or I'm not quite on board with this whole, whatever they're doing. And so this might be very similar to you or B can might be completely different. But I thought this was a good starting point for talking about what has gone wrong here. And what maybe could happen in this situation, what should have happened in this situation. Okay, so the first thing to know, it's very well established that intentional weight loss diets. So any type of intentional weight loss, whether that be through a fad diet, or through something that's quote, kind of sensible or reasonable, something that structured something that's well established or something that's like, you know, drink this tea to shut your pants. That's all called intentional weight loss. All forms of intentional weight loss don't work in the long term. So you might have seen in, in life, depending on how long you've been alive, that people go on diets, and they lose weight, and then eventually the weight comes back on. Now, the reason why people will view that people who are maybe not not up to date on weight science and will say, Well, it's because the person did something bad is the person's fault for not following the diet. That's what I thought. When I started dieting, I was like I'm gonna be the best motherfucking Dieter ever because all these other people who don't lose weight is because they're lazy and they're greedy and they can't control themselves. They don't have self discipline.

Unknown Speaker 9:53

That's actually not the case. The failure rate of diet is incredible. It's 95 to 98%. Now I have a document with the research about why and how diets fail. And we have data dating back to, you know, 100 years, 100 years worth of data basically showing that dieting doesn't work. And so a lot of people will say, there's that one study in 19, in the 1950s, that has a 95% failure rate. And that's all we've got. But that's actually not true. We've got many, many, many studies to show that weight loss, intentional weight loss is not sustainable, and that there is a risk in the act of losing weight. And I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna go through a few, I'm not gonna go through everything. Because we'd be here for for for a long time, just to kind of pick it out. And also, I'm gonna give you access to this spreadsheet that I've got with, with the evidence here that we're talking about all the studies, and so you can go and have a look and be like, was Vinny talking shit? Or was this study good and valid and all that type of stuff? Okay, so the first study we're talking about this is from 1959. And this is the one that is typically credited with a 95% failure rate on diets. And what it does is it looks at the previous 30 years of data. So 30 years before 1959, they were looking at this data, they will look at all that data from 30 years previously. And what they say in this is hundreds quote, hundreds of papers on treatment for so the word obesity, I'm going to censor out because it's it's not a good word. I mean, it's like I can go on tangents and about lots of things. So I'm just going to say the O word okay for obesity. So literature, hundreds of papers for treatment on on Oh word have been, let's just change it to fatness. Okay, so for fatness have been published in the past 30 years. Most however, do not give fingers on the outcome of treatment. And of those that do most report them in such a way as to obscure the outcome of treatment of individual patients. Okay, and so this is, this is what happens with diets and weight loss science. So, using our critical thinking skills, a lot of what weight weight loss science does is it will say it works on these people. But then if you look at how many people it's worked on, and how much weight they've lost, and how long that weight has been kept off, the numbers are always unimpressive. Very, very, very unimpressive. And so they kind of do a lot of, you know, smoke and mirrors type of thing to say, to make us who, who who don't look into the actual study, to say, oh, okay, well, you know, it worked, you know, from Pam from Ipswich lost 40 pounds. So, you know, and then I'll have that little asterix that says, results not typical. And, and, you know, we get into that kind of, well, I'd be the one that would be typical for because I'm really, I really don't want to lose weight. Okay, so then we go to 1992, we've got the national institute Institute of Health, who says that in controlled settings, participants who remain in weight loss programs usually lose approximately 10% of their weight. However, one to two thirds of the weight is regained within one year, and almost all of it is regained, regained within five years. And so here, this is a pretty common thing is people will lose a certain a certain amount of weight. And it's, you know, a saying here, it's around 10%. As I say, if someone is 200 pounds, they would be losing 20 pounds, which I mean, is not this significant life changing amount. But then within a year to five years, almost all of it is regained, and more. And what is happening is the body is doing some awesome stuff to make sure that we go back to the way that our bodies are is used to. So chemical processes are happening. Our setpoint weight every time that we intentionally try to lose weight, our setpoint weight goes up and up and up. And so that is called weight cycling, also known as yo yo dieting, and it's just a natural reaction from the body. When it is put into perceived famine is to say Holy shit what is happening we need to maintain the the, the fuel that is coming in and not burn off too much because we're in a period of uncertainty, which is an amazing thing that our bodies do. But for those who do want to lose weight long term, it can make it literally impossible. Alright, so if we move to 1999, how effective are traditional dietary and exercise interventions for weight loss, quote, a low long term follow up data on Miga. So that's a thing, again, is that we don't have that long term data. The data the data that do exist suggests that complete relapse after three to five years. A brief survey of the most popular dieting techniques used over the past 40 years shows that most techniques cycle in and out of popularity, and that many of these techniques may be hazardous to health. The paucity of the data of data provided of the weight loss industry. So the paucity is scarcity. Industry has been inadequate at inconclusive, those who challenge the use of diet and exercise solely for weight control purposes based their position on the absence of waste weight loss effectiveness data and on the presence of harmful effects of restrictive dieting. So when we say restrictive dieting, that means dieting, weight, calories, fat, whatever is restrictive. So that's any amount of dieting. All right, so we have studies from 2007 2010 2013. From 2013, the Australian National Medical Health and Research Council on obesity said that weight gain is very common after weight loss, and that is achieved that is achieved with lifestyle interventions. Weight loss is maximal at six to 12 months, regardless of the degree of initial weight loss. Most weight is regained within two year period, and by five years, majority of people are at their pre intervention, body weight. And that is great a evidence so grade eight evidence in Australia means that it is so well researched, it is you know, great evidence in Australia is smoking can cause cancer. That's great evidence. So you know, it's like not disputed, it is so well understood that that is something that happens. It's great evidence that dieting doesn't work as grave evidence in Australia. A study here from 2015 The probability of a fat person to gaining normal weight. The annual probability of achieving normal body weight was one in 210 for men, and 121. In 124. For women, the probability declined with increasing BMI category category, in morbidly obese patients as quotations around that because that word is made up I guess, like all words, but it's really fucked up. And the in morbidly obese patients, the annual probability of achieving normal weight was one in 1290 for men, and one in 677. For women in women, the probability of achieving normal weight among super obese participants, one in one in 608, which is similar to the two that observed among morbidly obese patients. In the smaller number of super obese men, the probability was higher at one in 362. So it's very unlikely that we can become thin long term. The most recent study that came out in 2021, I'm going to talk about this one, this is called obesity treatment, weight loss versus increasing fitness and physical activity for reducing health risks. Again, all of these are going to be linked in I've got it in a spreadsheet, you're gonna have a link to the threat spreadsheet, but I'm just quick from that. So the paper cites 225 other papers, okay. So it analyzes and it does a meta analysis. So it's not just one study, it's looking at 225 other papers, quote, we propose a weight neutral strategy for obesity treatment on the following grounds. One, the mortality risk associated with fatness is largely attenuated or eliminated by moderate to high levels of cardio respiratory fitness. So that's called CRF. The acronym CRF, cardio respiratory fitness, so you know,

Unknown Speaker 19:40

moving your body or physical activity so pa so CRF, cardio respiratory fitness or PA physical activity to most cardio metabolic risk markers associated with obesity can be improved with exercise training, independent of weight loss, and by a magnitude similar to that observed with weight loss programs, three weight loss even if intentional is not considered associated with lower mortality risk. Okay, so, losing weight is not associated with lower mortality risk for increases in CRF or PA so that's exercise are consistently associated with greater reductions in mortality risk than is intentional weight loss and five weight cycling. That's the yo yo dieting that's just dieting right doing a diet and then the diet failing and doing another diet. weight cycling is associated with numerous adverse health outcomes including increased mortality. Importantly, fat people in conjunct us fat people and importantly, overweight and obesity in conjunction with moderate to high CRF were associated were associated with a lower death rate than adults in the unfit to normal weight category. Okay, so if you are a fat person who exercises a lot, your your death rate is lower than someone who is a straight sized person. So someone who's not fat, who doesn't exercise CRF does not eliminate the CVD mortality risk associated with high BMI. Nonetheless, the data illustrate that low CRF is more hazardous, hazardous than a high BMI, okay, so it is more hazardous to not exercise than it is to have a high BMI. In fact, the data in figure two clearly shows that risks associated with higher BMI within both the fit and unfit groups are much lower than the risks associated with low CRF regardless of BMI data on 21,925 men in the aerobic center longitudinal study demonstrated that lower all calls and cancer mortality risks associated with higher levels of muscular fitness were independent of BMI, waist circumference, and percent body fat. And that the lower risk was observed even after after associated with reduced mortality risk. Even in those studies that demonstrated a benefit of weight loss, it is not clear whether the weight loss itself was the primary factor that reduced mortality risk. This is because the RCTs included in the weight loss meta analysis invariably incorporated changes in diet and or exercise, either as a program that participants could attend or is or as advice, as discussed in subsequent sections increases in physical activity are consistently associated with reductions in mortality risk independently of changes in changes in weight. Okay, so what that is all saying in a lot of a lot of language, is that that it's not weight that causes you losing weight doesn't doesn't cause reduce mortality risk. Okay? What does is physical activity, okay. And they're saying is, you know, when someone goes on a diet, and they see improvements in health, it is not because of losing weight, it is because they have engaged in health promoting activities, like physical activity. So a big disclaimer here is that physical activity is just one of many, many, many, many different ways that that we can change health or what promotes health, okay, so I don't want you to take from that like, right, I'm going to tell my fat person, they need to go for a run, because it will make them healthier. I please do not take that from it. We're going to talk about what is health and what makes up health in another section here, but this is just showing that if you are a fat person and you engage in activity, physical activity, your mortality risk is lower than someone who is a straight size bodied person or you know someone who's not fat and who doesn't work out. All right. Again, that doesn't mean that okay, so that means that one fat people have to work out or to even that it's suitable for all fat people to work out although even all fat people can work out. Right. And also, physical activity for some fat people is actually really harmful for many different reasons mentally and physically. Okay, and so we, what we're what we're trying to do is take a holistic approach to this is to take a You know, send a black and white thinking of oh, here's the answer. This is what we need to do. Okay, what what does this mean, for each individual? Is this helpful for each individual? And, you know, it might be that someone loves working out, and that's great. And if someone doesn't like working out, that's fine too, because there's other ways that we can engage in health if we want to. But also, health is not an obligation that other people owe us. All right. Okay, so one thing intentional weight loss doesn't work. All right. Number two here is that being fat doesn't equate to being unhealthy. Okay, so you cannot look at someone's body and presume that they are unhealthy or that they will become unhealthy. We do not know individual people's health status is fatness is linked with an increased risk of offset and conditions, as we have been told a million times over. The thing is, is we don't know why. Okay, we don't know that having more fat tissue, adipose tissue on your body? Is the causal the causation of the increased risk. Okay? We don't have that science yet. We don't know. There are certain identity factors that people can have like, say, being a man, we know that generally speaking, men live Long live, not as long as women. We know that if you live in France, for example, you'll live longer than if you live in the United States. Is that because that person happens to live on this certain piece of land? Is that because someone has a certain gender? Or are there really complicated issues that go along with it? So for example, you know, you're you live longer if you live in France? Is it because of of the healthcare that's accessible? Is it because of working hours? Is it because of XYZ? Right? And there's lots of different factors that can go in and we can think of that very easily. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it's not that they physically live in France, you know, they stand on that ground, but it's called France. It is because of all these different things that are going on. And it's the same with fatness, right. What we do know about fat people and health is that something that is really, really damaging towards fat, people's health, and everyone's health is marginalization and stigmatization is oppression. And so fat people experience a shit ton of, hey, you should lose weight. And that actively damages our health. Right? stigmatization marginalization doesn't feel good. And also, what happens is, it leads a lot of fat people to not seek out health care, to not go to the doctors, and then not get diagnosed as quickly. Or even if they do go to the doctors, having their concerns ignored and told to lose weight. And that contributes towards

Unknown Speaker 28:34

discrepancies. In fact, people are more likely to, you know, experience this or that.

Unknown Speaker 28:41

And i Because, you know, because why would you want to go to the doctor, if you go in, and every time you're just told to lose weight is pretty difficult, you know? Okay, so in these studies here, too, we've got a study here that goes over all of the different common things that you would think is associated with fatness, you know, like diabetes, or heart disease or whatever, and looks at whether dieting helps improve it outside of weight loss. And spoiler, it doesn't. It doesn't. Right. So we don't know, someone's health status by looking at them. And also being fat doesn't equate to, to being unhealthy. And also, what if someone is fat and unhealthy? Does that mean that they are an unworthy human being that they should just go away? You know? No. And so then what's the what's the solution? Say if we knew 100%? Absolutely. Every single fat person on the planet is deeply unhealthy. It's they're just ticking time bombs and they're, they're going to take everyone down with them. What's solution, we know that we can't lose weight, there's a very, very, very, very, very small chance that we can. And even the act of trying to lose weight is harmful to health. So what's the solution? You know, even if he can't get behind the fact that, you know, weight and health is a lot more complicated than what we have normally known. So you can you can say, I don't know, can't get behind that Vinnie. Vinnie, like fat people are obviously unhealthy. That's fine. Well, what can we do? Weight loss doesn't work. And that's great evidence that weight loss doesn't work. There's no, there's no kind of like, oh, hang on, we don't have a lot of evidence. We have so much evidence, so much evidence, you know, it's like vaccines, the amount of evidence of supporting, you know, vaccines don't cause autism, because people are like, Oh, it does. And it's like, we don't need any more studies to show that vaccines don't cause autism. I mean, we do always need more studies about this fat thing, because it's so well entrenched, right? But it's kind of like that. And that's the way I view it is like, there's so many studies. Okay, so number three, you can support your health in weight neutral ways. Okay. So we touched on that earlier of those studies, showing that if you engage in physical activity, you have a lower mortality risk than someone who who, who doesn't who is smaller, and you're fat. So there's lots of different ways that you can support health without tying weight loss to it. Okay. So there's a study, which is linked in the spreadsheet, under weight neutral care does work. Okay, so it's called weight science, evaluating the evidence for a paradigm shift came out in January 2011. And what this does is it looks at four folks who are dieting, and engaging in health promoting behaviors, and folks who are just engaging in health promoting behaviors and not dieting, what they found was the people who were dieting and also engaging in health promoting behaviors, they were unsuccessful, because diets don't work and unsuccessful in losing weight long term. And also, they stopped engaging in health promoting activities, because they preach they presumed that they weren't working because they weren't losing weight. And so the people in the group who were just engaging in health promoting activities, just for the fun of it, they did continue with those health promoting activities, when they were outside of that marker of weight loss, being at success, they weren't even looking at weight, they were just doing those things. And so when we have health promoting activities outside of weight loss, people tend to do them longer. Because they don't feel like they've they're failing, because, you know, weight loss doesn't work. And they say, I don't want to do this anymore, because it's not working. Because it's not, it's not getting to me to where I want to go, which is lower weight. But if we really looked at is it getting me to a place where I might be healthier, then that is potentially happening. We have another couple of studies here showing that healthy habits are associated with significant decrease in mortality, regardless of BMI. Also, we have an interesting paper here that is called I think, therefore I am perceived ideal weight is a determinant of health. And so this found that the difference between actual and desired body weight was a stronger predictor of physical and mental health than body mass index. And so if we continue to shame fat people, and they internalize that shame and say, Yeah, I am a terrible person because I'm fat, that will have a negative impact on their physical and mental health versus if we support fat people in just living being humans. And, and they are able to internalize those ideas of ideal body weight, and what that looks like for them, you know, and then they're able to accept that fatness is not their fault and, you know, engage in behaviors that improve their mental and physical health. And also, you know, the other mechanism mechanisms that might make that happen. And so, you know, you can support your health in weight neutral ways, but health is really Eat a really complicated topic. And shaming fat people is very, very unhelpful. And so, you know, we spoke about exercise as being something that could influence someone's health, the World Health Organization, and many, many countries came together to look at the data of the determinants of health, what makes up health for an individual. And the determinants of health is really, really complicated. And it was very, very surprising to me that what you eat, and how much you exercise are not the number one things that make up someone's health status. They're not even number two, or three or four. We're going to talk about it and you can go and have a look at the images. So if you Google go in vo g o i n VO and determinants of health, you can go and have a look at a huge diagram or I have one which is simplified as well on my on my Instagram, but 89% of health occurs outside of the clinical space through our genetics, behavior, environment and social circumstances. These factors are known as the social determinants of health. Despite their importance, attempts to integrate the determinants into a single visualization has been limited. And so then they've got the the in the illustration, okay, so most of what makes up our health is not our individual behavior. Okay? individual behavior makes up 36%. Of of health, okay. Inside that 6% you like, you might think, well, I thought, Okay, well that means are you eating broccoli? And are you going for a run? Actually, inside that individual behavior? What we see is if you smoke, if you have safer sex, if you get enough sleep, your mood levels and your exercise patterns. So we've got, you know, your optimism level your life satisfaction level, your cognitive cognitive function in late life, your risk related behavior like gun behavior, motor vehicle behavior, do you wear a seatbelt? Are you living with anxiety, depression, stress and hopelessness. And then the final two in here, physical activity and diet patterns. Okay. Let's just pretend individual behavior is 100% just physical activity and diet patterns. It still only makes up 36% of what makes up health. Okay. The others social circumstances. That is your social connectedness, your social status, so your income, your language and literacy level, education, your occupation, your culture and tradition, your race, ethnicity, your citizenship, your sexual orientation, if you've served in the military, your gender identity, history of income, incarnation, incarceration, incarnation, incarceration, discrimination, and work conditions.

Unknown Speaker 38:37

22% is genetics and biology. And that under genetics and biology, we have body structure, and that is weight, height, weight, hip ratio, and age. So the World Health Organization is recognizing that weight is down to genetics and biology. Okay, so underneath that here too, we have like bone density, density, blood pressure, intuitional status, biochemical function, your DNA, your gender, chromosomes, things like that. Okay. 11% is medical care. So access to health care, quality of health care, patient engagement and health literacy. And we think about that with patient engagement, how fat people might engage with formal medical care setting settings and what happens when they're there. And finally, 7% is the environment and so that's pollution, exposure to tobacco, air quality, water quality, the location, crime level, job opportunities, public space quality, access to vocational training, residents quality exposure to firearms and allergens. Okay, so there are mind that 36% of what makes up someone's health status is individual behavior. And only one of the things underneath that. And there's many different things here is diet, and only one is physical activity. So we're not saying that those things don't matter. But say if you can't engage in physical activity or don't want to, you can decide to do things like improve your sleep patterns, you can decide to ask for a raise at work, you can maybe not expose yourself to firearms or wear a seatbelt, you know. And so when we think about health, you know, are we thinking about, Okay, what's, where do I live? What color is my skin? How much am I making, we don't think about that, which is unfortunate, because that is, you know, the complex picture of what makes up health. And it's a lot easier just to say, you know, don't eat this and move your body because you know, that's very simplified. And it makes us feel like we have more control over our health than we maybe do. So the next thing here that I want to talk about is what are you trying to achieve by telling a fat person to lose weight, I'm going to presume that it's because you care about their health, right? That's wonderful. If you care about someone and you care about their health, that's a wonderful thing that shows what type of person you are, you're a caring and loving individual. Something we also want to care about is not just physical health, it's mental health. And what happens if you say to a person that they need to change for whatever reason, and how that affects their mental health. So if you care about their, their physical health, you should also care about their mental health and know that this is probably having a negative outcome to the mental health. And telling someone in a, quote, nice way, or encouraging them to do certain things is still just as harmful, right? Like, we're not we get it, you know, if you're dropping subtle hints that someone should lose weight, or if you just say, Listen, you're fat, and you shouldn't be, you know, the, your fat and you shouldn't be as harmful but, you know, being quote, nice about it is still is still harmful, you know, and it might be that, you know, the being nice about it and the kitten light gently dropping hints is kind of like a, you know, drop of water or like a paper cut. And it's like a death by 1000 cuts or, you know, it's it's like, a ton of feathers. Each each little thing is like a feather. But then, you know, eventually a ton is a ton, right? Yeah. And also, if you're worried about health, like, no one owes you health. Even though it would be great if everyone was like, 100% healthy, they just did what we wanted them to do, right? I wish I I would say there's almost I wish I could control people and just make them think like me or do things like me, unfortunately, I can't and unfortunately, you can't write. And no one owes you to do anything with their body, even if it means that they have negative health outcomes. And, and focusing so much on health, there's a name for that. And that's called Healthy ism. And that is valuing people, because they are healthy. And valuing unhealthy people less. That is a form of ableism, which is saying that to be non disabled, is superior to being disabled, disabled, folks, we don't need to think about them. People with disabilities are, you know, negative in some way, right? People are going to be unhealthy. And as we continue to be alive in this world, as we get older, we're going going to going to become more and more unhealthy, we're going to become disabled. And so our current health status, if you are a person who was someone who's currently very healthy, that's not necessarily something that is going to stay the same forever. You know, because you're gonna die. Sorry. So, I mean, if if you know self worth is being derived from health, then it's something that is going to be slipping away from you eventually. And so, you know, if someone worthy outside of their health status, you know, you can say, Yeah, but Vinnie, you know, you said that fat people can be healthy, whatever. I know, my loved one is so unhealthy. I see what they do. I know. It doesn't matter. If you if you see them doing things that you don't agree with, and you perceive them to be unhealthy or you quote, know that they're unhealthy, whatever unhealthy means. You, you know, you can't force them to do what you want them to do. Right? Which I know is annoying. I wish we could. And there's one more thing about health. It's really interesting. Like, I remember going to the doctor's one time. And it was like a annual checkup or whatever. And the doctor said, You are very healthy. And as she was handing me a prescription for all the medicines that I need to take to be healthy, and I just thought I was then I talked to the pharmacist, I said, Isn't that really funny? Like she said, You are healthy, as she is given me things, because I'm not healthy. What is healthy? What does that mean? You know, given me prescriptions for like, my asthma, or my, my fibroid, or you know, mental health stuff, and, you know, IBS and blah, blah, blah, so am I healthy? Or am I not healthy? What is it? You know? It's complicated, right? And so, like, Would I class myself as a healthy person? The doctor said I was healthy. But I have things where my health is not good. It's complicated. So you know, kind of think of it like that it's a more nuanced thing. And also, why is it that we think about certain conditions more favorite favorably than others? So say, if someone broke their leg, you blocked here, you know, they broke their leg climbing a mountain? Oh, wow, you know, who they were doing something really good. And they broke the leg? What if a someone who was fat fell out of their wheelchair and broke their leg? Then how would you think about it? Or what if a fat person has diabetes? What would you think about that versus a thin person who has diabetes, or even, you know, diabetes versus having an issue with your thyroid? You know, what, why is one seniors maybe better than the other. And by the way, diabetes is a largely genetic condition. You can't eat your way into diabetes, just a heads up, you know, and everybody gonna be saying that, but hang on, they're eating bad, quote, bad food. And here's the thing, here's the thing, right with food, because you could say, Okay, well, I'm not going to tell them to lose weight, but I'm going to tell them that they should not be eating that food. That really, really, really contributes towards poor mental health. Almost every single one of my clients who I help unlearn fatphobia has many, many stories from a very young age of well meaning loved one saying don't eat that you should eat this, and how that destroys destroyed their self esteem, their relationship with food, their well being their mental health, like it, it can be just one comment. We, the world is well, very well educated on how many calories this has the fat content of that the nutritional value of you know, like, we are smart. You know, we know that people say that you should eat a cucumber and not eat something that is perceived as unhealthy. Like, it's not like we've gone through our lives and not pick that message up. We have picked that message up. And so we don't need someone else to say, Hey, did

Unknown Speaker 48:30

you know, like, we've heard that message a bajillion times. And hearing it again, is just another paper cut, you know, or even a huge sword, you know, is really, really painful. And it's not helpful. Shaming fat people, actually makes them fatter. Not that being fat is bad, but it's the opposite of what theoretically you want to achieve. So restricting people's food intake, say if you have here have children, saying you're not allowed to eat that eat this, it really really is setting children up young people and adults with with a high chances of, of disordered eating, or even a full blown eating disorder, we have to be very, very careful with the way that we talk about food, because it is deeply personal and powerful. So again, if you have an adult person that you're concerned about the way what food they're eating, they're an adult person. You telling them that you have seen what they're doing and you're judging them and that you think it's wrong, isn't going to enhance your relationship and isn't probably going to make them change what they're doing long term. And you know, who that's even saying that the what they're doing is bad. You know? So an example We'll hear a thesis is that I used to have an eating disorder, right? I used to have an eating disorder, I had a shit ton of trauma growing up. Lots of trauma, I ended up in when I was 17, I was homeless living in a shelter for young people, I ended up meeting a 30 year old guy who was a massive creep. And I ended up living with him, he was deeply abusive. My life was shipped, shipped, shipped, shipped, shipped, like close to death. Terrible because my mental health was that bad. The only thing that I had in my life that gave me a little bit of joy was food. And I'm not saying that that is every fat person's experience. But that was my experience was that once a week, I was able to go to the shop and have some food. Because this guy was also denying me food. I viewed that as deeply pathological that there was something really, really wrong with me. It was a natural response to being denied food and being told that what I wanted to eat was wrong. And from there, I developed an eating disorder. So food saved me in food was the only joy I had during the two years I was with that guy. So if someone had come along and said, Oh, you shouldn't be in that. And they all they saw was someone who was, who was fat, eating foods that they perceived was unhealthy. What would that have done to me? You know, what, what would that? How would that have helped me it wouldn't have. And you know, you might say, well, that's not my fat person situation. And it might not be but you know, who says that eating food is, you know, is a morally corrupt thing to do? And I know that you don't think that you know, you're just worried about your person, but I think letting them be them is probably the best you can you can do for them. Now moving to that, that that idea that first you know, the question that while that I read out about this guy didn't find his girlfriend attractive. I want to read out an experience that I had. So this is a blog post that I did five years ago. Okay, it's called Why I was happy when my boyfriend told me he wasn't attracted to me. Okay, I'm gonna read this out. There's gonna be a link in the bio tech in the in the show notes. Okay, I always got the impression one of my partners just wasn't that into me. Let me rephrase. Just Not That Into my looks. My suspicion was confirmed four years in when he told me he didn't find me as attractive because I had put on a little weight walking in the park at winter. When he Seamus shamefully told me his secret. I assured him I would, quote become better, I would lose weight. The next week, I went on what would be my last diet, I vowed I would lose the weight, the, quote, healthy way. And my partner would finally see me see how wonderful I was and think I was the most beautiful person in the world. Of course, as all diets do, it failed. I put on more weight. I became resentful. Why couldn't he just love me the way that I was? Why did he have to tell me something that was so devastating to me? I was filled with shame, anger, and confusion. Why I am now happy that he gave me this information is it that it led me on a path to self discovery around beauty. Six months after we split I asked him would you have liked me better if I was sinner? The yes. He said this time his words didn't hurt. It didn't hurt because since I gave up on that last i i have learned all about fat positivity and feminism. I have learned about our patriarchal society and beauty ideals, how they hurt all of us. Why would a thin girlfriend be important to you? I continued. He explained that having a thin partner improves his status that having a small girlfriend makes him fulfill more masculine. Like a lot of people he's never explored our society's beauty ideals.

Unknown Speaker 54:35

We are constantly told that the most desirable are white, young and thin. This belief will hurt him as he searches for a new partner. It will hurt him when he finds a new partner and she ages it will hurt him if she ever puts on weight. It will hurt her to as it hurt me knowing that the man I adored would prefer a different version of me Now I know it's not about me. It's a byproduct of living in a society that objectifies women, men seeing their partners as status symbols and women believing their worth is determined by the number on the scale amongst other things. If I could travel back to that time in that icy cold Park, I would have such a different reaction, I wouldn't have seen my body as a problem. But the fact that my partner believed my worth was decreased. As my weight increased, I would have, I would encourage my partner to explore his idea of what is desirable. And if he couldn't see the beauty of my waves and honey, that I would remove myself from the relationship. So if you're in the same situation as I was, No, it's not your fault. It's this fucked up beauty ideal. You deserve to be with someone who accepts you for who you are. And if they don't leave them. By the way, my now ex is a wonderful kind person, he didn't tell me about his feelings to be cruel, but to try and strengthen our relationship, it just didn't work out the way he planned. If you are worried about your loved one, and and it's someone that you're in a relationship with a romantic or sexual relationship, and you say it's about health, I want to I want to challenge you to dig a little deeper of is it about health? Or is it about your definition of what is attractive? And is that because our society decided that women need to be or people need to be young, thin, nondisabled, white, etc, etc. And think about why is it that we're told we need to be these things? What systems have told us that whiteness, thinness, youth being non disabled, are the most desirable. Those systems are racism, the patriarchy colonization, sexism, etc, etc, etc, right? And it's so hard to unlearn this stuff, especially when it comes down to it's my preference. This is my preference. Fineness is my preference. Our preferences like that are not made in a bubble, right? You weren't born and in your brain was, the idea that fineness is superior, you were told that we were all told that we are all bombarded with images of what is attractive, day in, day out. And that means that we've been influenced by them, right. And it's, I feel like it's a very narrow world, when we can only see beauty in a limited number of bodies, like I feel, I do feel for people who, who don't have the experience of being able to deeply appreciate all different body types, because it just makes the world a little bit more magical, you know. And so there is a way out of that. And the way out of that isn't telling your spouse that they're, they need to change their body. Because one, weight loss doesn't work. It is not sustainable. And too, it is going to damage your relationship. And even if you do it in a nice way, it will still damage your relationship. And three, it means that you're you're never going to be truly satisfied. Because if your partner goes on a diet, their weight will increase in the long term. So your partner will have a bigger body than they have currently. And if you're not satisfied with their body right now, then, you know, it's probably not going to change for the smaller and they are going to age, they their body is going to change in other ways. And so if you're not satisfied with their body right now, it's probably not going to change for the better. Therefore, what you can change is the way that you perceive your partner's body that is changeable. The way that you perceive all bodies and your internalized racism and sexism and Lala and by the way, we all have internalized bigotry right I'm in turn, I have internalized fat phobia and racism, sexism, colonization, all that type of stuff, right? Because I because I've been born into this world. This it impossible for me to have not picked it up. But it's my job to try and unlearn that stuff. It's my job if I want to be a better person than I do, right? I think we all do want to be a better person. And and if you're listening to this podcast, it means that you, you you care, right? You care and you care deeply if you've taken the time to listen to this podcast, and if you can take that deep caring and love and and use that to help you work on the way that you perceive fatness, I think that'd be really, really helpful for the person that you love. And for yourself, it will make the world more colorful, it will make you satisfied with different things that you previously thought that thought that you weren't satisfied, not just fatness, you know. So I'm going to read a couple of other you know, questions that people have put onto the internets. And if we think about what we've just, we've just gone through what we might answer to these questions. Okay. So this one is, quote, I'm not physically attracted to my wife, her physical appearance has always been an issue and it only gets worse. She has put on a considerable amount of weight. And this is very unattractive to me. I've tried to hint to her tactfully. I'm not insensitive, that it bothers me but she only gets offended. Okay, so let's just pause here. So I'm not a physically attracted to him to my wife. It's always been an issue and only gets worse. Okay, so, you know, first off what why did this person marry the wife, the person that they are not attracted to? And I mean, fucked up to begin with. She's bought on a considerable amount of weight. This is really unattractive to me. Okay, so that's a that's a him problem, right? That's a him problem. It's not a it's not a her problem. And I'm presuming that this person is a him we don't know. I've tried to hint to her tactfully. I'm not insensitive. And so they say he's saying, I'm not insensitive, but she gets offended. And so he says he's doing it tactfully. But it's not tactfully, because she's offended because it's an offensive thing to do. It seems like it's not my place to say so anymore. Instead, there's a gnawing silence and growing indifference to sex. I'd like to say that it's so that she is so beautiful inside that the outside doesn't matter. But that's not true. In many ways, children, finances practical, practical things, we we communicate well, I respect her and she's a good mum. But this war between us is an increasing source of emotional distress, anguish, loss of intimacy and hormonal hell, what do you suggest, okay, so what we suggest here is for this person, to probably go to therapy, and to learn about fat politics, to read some books, listen to some podcasts, and stop continuing to hurt his wife. It might be an idea for them not to be together, if if the wife knew that he was talking about her like this, I it's always been an issue. And it only gets worse our physical appearance, I mean, that's really very, very unkind and shows really a deep lack of respect for their person. Okay, so this other person says, When my husband and I first started dating, I was extremely attracted to his physical appearance. But throughout the years of our marriage, he's put on a considerable amount of weight, when I tell him, he needs to lose weight, he gets angry and really hurt. Is it unfair of me to want him to lose weight. I mean, it's not unfair for you to want him to lose weight, because you this person is programmed to think that weight loss is good, right? Being thinner is good. And looking at their, their husband from these, you know, when they when they were younger, when you first meet your your spouse, that you know that they're going to, they're going to be great, you know, if you're attracted to them are going to be great that you're going to age that kind of put on weight, their body is going to change, okay? And that's just the way that it is, you know, some people to some degree and some people to more degree, right? And so the more that we detangle these, these ideas of our spouse needing to look a certain way or

Unknown Speaker 1:04:31

object, objectifying our spouse, the more comfort we're going to find in the world. Right. So should this person you know, it would be like, yeah, it is unfair. To tell him constantly that he needs to lose weight. This person needs to go and learn about that positivity and go to therapy and all that type of stuff. So I asked my followers, what would you like me to say to well meaning people who are concerned for your health, or want you to lose weight, what message would you want me to pass on? What impact does it have when a loved one comments on your weight and tells you to be thinner? And this is what people said. So this is from my followers. I know I am fat I knew at last time you told me and the time before, just stop, that they're treating me like a problem, not a person. That despite all the good that I bring to the world, I'm still not enough. It makes me feel like you wouldn't love or take care of me if I got ill. If I did get ill, I'd probably keep it from you because of your judgment, I'd be alone. health and weight aren't correlated and if they are concerned are eHealth vote for health issues. Gaining weight is often a sign of healing. But body comments are never welcome. Yeah, so that's another thing is, a lot of times when people are held healing a an from an eating disorder or disordered, disordered eating, that means that they will gain weight and so that's just a normal part of healing. And so we see a lot of people who are in treatment who are setback a huge amount because family members say oh, no, you're putting on weight, and it really fucks them up. Body comments are detrimental and triggering to mental health and eating disorders reevaluate if they are actually well meaning that health risks of weight cycling are higher than being fat. Please trust that I know my body better than you do. I know what I need. My size is of no surprise to me. It is not helpful to mention it as I know myself. It affects my mental health negatively impacts my self esteem I want to cut contact no one should be commenting on someone's body period. Then people have health issues too. It's not exclusive to fat people. The impact of it is it feels like I failed them failed the family that I am a failure that their love is conditional fat people already know that they are fat you're dumb fucks bloody I know I'm fat I live in my body they act like I'm not aware of my weight I am other people's concerns just add fresh it and makes me want to eat more show that they care in other ways. Think about their how their comment may trigger a trauma response as a result to be more understanding of my trauma history when with food and weight when commenting. Mainly that the science says dieting does not work. I am not a failure. I am the norm. I was heavy as a kid. I'm sitting in therapy because I was treated as less because of my weight by my peers and my loved ones. I would like to have a proper answer to the health concerns which is never really their true concern. So this person is like health concerns is masking something else and it often is it often is masking fatphobia you know that that the things that we've learned about fatness and also desirability. It is harmful when they body shame. More concerned with looks than my well being. Weight does not equal healthiness mental health impacts of feeling like your body is wrong and you are too weak to change it. There is so much more to me than my size. No comment about weight. Our comments about weight are helpful, fat or thin. It fuels the idea that our weight is our worth. I've spent 45 years hating my body because you have always told me it needed changing. When people bring up my weight. It feels like my physical body is all they see or care about. You're worried about my health but you're happy to drink lots of alcohol with me regularly. I used to think like you but now I know better. It's okay to admit you're wrong. Learn then teach. Be more concerned with our mental and emotional well being. Please stop telling me about your new diet. I didn't ask and I don't care. I grew up to have an eating disorder because of adults saying this to me as a child. We know about our way we know the quote concerns and complications. I know you think that this is helpful but all I hear is that I am not enough as I am that they are asking me to sacrifice my mental health to do Diet, everything that they think they know about the health of fat people is untrue. Your comments make it clear to me that you can't or won't see beyond my size. This dismissal of who I am is hurtful. For me, I had to choose between trying to be thin, or health promoting behaviors. We have a longer a longer response hear from someone. I'd like them to know that when commenting on my weight, however well intentioned, it doesn't come off that way. For me, it brings me such shame and really knocks my self worth because what I'm hearing is that they see me as bad or wrong or something to be fixed. It also feels like they only see me as one thing fat. And to them that is bad. And that is that I'm not living to my full potential. As someone who grew up with a mother who was so hyper aware of my weight, mainly due to her own body hangups, I think, I've always felt not good enough that my body is the common denominator in how I am perceived in everything I say, or do. I often wonder how I would have turned out if I have just been left alone and allowed to live my life without feeling like I was never good enough. Unless I was thin. The issues around self worth are filtered into everything. It affects how I advocate for myself, and how I am often afraid to take up space. I think I would want people to just stop and look inward before they speak about another person's body. Ask themselves where it's coming from. And really, at the end of the day, will it change anything or affect their lives anyway, just leave that people alone. Let them live. We don't need a commentary. And the last comment here is thank you for your concern. But please know that bodies exist and function best in many different shapes and sizes. Personally, I know I'm healthier, both mentally and physically than with a disordered relationship with food that would be required to achieve a lower weight. I would say that it's important for me for for more people to understand the health warnings about being fat are overblown. For many, many people gaining weight after restricting over exercising and weight cycling, particularly if you gain weight, and then have a pretty stable weight is actually healthier, not just for your mental health and confidence but for your body. Your health markers will actually improve when you focus on them, not trying to just lose weight. I wish my family knew that when they praise my siblings extreme weight loss and praise diets, it feels like they are telling me to lose weight. It feels like they don't have the guts just to just tell me, I should be like my siblings. So they pile on the prey so I can connect the dots is never subtle, like they think it is and we see right through that through it to their message that they are disappointed in our body and think it's not okay. It feels like they think my body is their personal failure. And they must remedy it. Not necessarily something to say to them directly. But I wonder how many others feel this way with their families pressures and expectations. It hurts when I'm healthiest I've ever hurts when I'm the healthiest I've ever been. I have figured out how to enjoy exercise again. And I get out and move pretty much every day, walking the dog running with a dog going to the gym hiking sports, I'm much stronger, I'm getting more nutrients, I have more energy, I'm happier and overall better. And it sucks knowing if your family could pick they don't want you to go back to disordered eating and restriction and harmful pathways. Because weight is more important to them. They can't see past the weight. Yeah, those are really I think powerful responses directly from from fat people. I a lot of fat people can't say this to their, their loved ones who tell them to lose weight because, you know, they wouldn't get the response they wanted you know, they their loved one wouldn't say shit, I fucked up I'm so sorry. You know, and so it's not safe for them to do that. And that's really really sad. And I just I just want to end with just really getting home this idea of there's going to be a lot of people who are like, Well, what but what about their knees or what? But what about the they're you're about to have a heart attack or what about their joints? Or what about this or what about bla bla bla

Unknown Speaker 1:14:32

there is no way to lose weight and keep it off long term. That goes for fat diets, lifestyle changes, and even bariatric surgery. We just don't have any information and data to show that there are ways to manipulate human body size in a way that It is something that's going to be lasting long term, we don't have that data. So even if we knew that every fat person is deeply unhealthy, and you know, their knees are about to buckle under the weight of them, by the way, it's not true, then we can't, there's nothing we can do to not be not be fat, right. So what we can do if we want to support a health, or many of the different health promoting behaviors, which include dismantling fatphobia, and all the other things that we didn't think that were related to health. And what we need from you is love, and acceptance and support. And to know that you are that person and place we can go to who is not going to tell us that we are bad, that we need to do this or do that. If you do that, it just continues to erode the relationship. And I really got to tell you, so many I mentioned it before, so many people have had devastating consequences because of loved ones telling things saying things to them. And they end up cutting off those people from their life, or reducing the amount of time they spend with them. Because they refuse to do anything else. And I don't think that if you no care sort of get you care about someone, if you had the choice to you know, just not say anything and have them in your life, I think you'd would prefer that right? And then some people might say, well, if I don't say something, they might die, and then I won't have them in my life. But you know, we just don't know that. We don't know that. Do we want to lead with kindness and compassion? Or do we want to make people feel awful, which in turn negatively impacts their health? So let me round up everything that I just said. One, what if you want to support a fat person to lose weight, or you're concerned about their health. So the first thing here is intentional weight loss doesn't work, we've got over 100 years worth of studies to prove that. And we'll have the link of all of the different resources for you as well to so you can look into all the data that intentional weight loss doesn't work. And that means any type of of weight loss with with any method. Being fat does not equate to being unhealthy. You can support your health in weight neutral ways, and so you can engage in many different activities. And things outside of focusing on weight and a study show that they will stick more if you are not focusing on weight. Health is a really complicated topic. And shaming fat people is really really hard, unhealthy, unhelpful. What are you trying to achieve by telling a fat person to lose weight if you care about their health, and you also need to care about their mental health, telling someone in a quote nice way or encouraging them to do certain things is still just as harmful. No one owes you health and focusing on it so much is health ism. And ableism in practice is your definition of what is attractive based on infantilization racism, patriarchy, and other harmful oppressive systems. The fact that you love someone and care enough about them to want them to be healthy is a beautiful thing. And the best way that you can support your loved one is loving them unconditionally, no matter what their weight is, and celebrate them for exactly who they are right now. Okay, so I'm going to leave you with one last thing which is Hayes health sheet. So Hayes is Health at Every Size. So ha ha E S stands for Health at Every Size, health sheets.com is an a resource if you want to look more into the common conditions that are associated with fatness and learn more about how to how to live with them, how they how they are created, what's going on. So you can understand like say if you do have a loved one who has type two diabetes and you're like, oh my god, they need to be doing this and that and they need to be becoming thin to help themselves. That Hayes health sheets is going to help you understand why is helpful outside of weight loss and how how this condition came to be and in the mechanisms and and what to do Yeah, so in case you're interested in that type of stuff and again like this is imperfect there's gonna be things where you know, there's there's different areas I've not, you know covered. But yeah I hopefully this has been helpful. Maybe you've picked up something maybe not, you know, I know that you're coming from a place of love and I hope that with that love you can maybe make a tweak to the way that you're approaching fat folks and and just love them and accept them. You know, the same way that you want to be loved and accepted, right? Yeah. And if fat folks are listening Hey, you're rad and amazing and big fat he hugs to you big fat he hugs to everyone. And thank you for hanging out with me today. And I guess we'll see you on the next episode goodbye you.